The Last Generation?

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 07:32 PM

"They are folk songs, Ron. People know them as folk music and they are being handed down and sung for decades at this point. "

I'm not disagreeing with you! You are graping what I am trying to say.

I too believe they are folk songs, but TECHNICLY, they are not. If you go by the definition that has been accepted by academia, they do not fit the description. Folk songs are passed on in an oral tradition and the lyrics evolve.

Again, I am on your side with this. I think the definition of "folk music" has morphed over the years - and I'm not complaining! Those songs are part of a community that has kept them alive and used them in the same fashion that our traditional music had been utilized in their original communities. Folk music is not a museum piece, they are songs that serve a purpose - and you eloquently said - they are being handed down and sung for decades at this point.

As you also said, you certainly have a right to say what is a folk song, but not the exclusive right.   Because you have stereotyped contemporary songwriters by saying "much of the self-centered drivel", you are failing to recognize the songs that are of the same caliber of those you originally mentioned.   

There are some powerful songwriters in our midsts whose songs are self-centered testimonials to the fact that they did not get laid last night that are righting important songs that serve a vibrant community.   Check out Falcon Ridge, Kerrville, or the hundreds of festivals around the country. It might not be your grandparents view of folk music, but it is meeting the same criteria.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 07:25 PM

What country are you talking about?
Down here in little old New Zealand we have just attended the Wellington Folk Festival (we've missed 2 in 45 years, both times when we were in the UK), and the place was full of younger people.
There are pictures here
OK, there was a large number of us grey-haired wrinklies but there was some terrific music coming from kids in their teens and early twenties. Mostly it was trad with kids playing fiddles, flutes, squeeze boxes and a brilliant banjo picker known as BB. As well as sticking to known tunes, they're also experimenting, so the bluegrass girl was trying out the celtic stuff and various combinations were backing different traditions.
The oldies who are still doing the songs they sang 30, 40 years ago haven't progressed much and are there, but we've heard all that before. I looked in on one of their concerts but decided I had better things to do......
And there are still singer/songwriters around but they're more likely to be sitting in their tents singing to themselves. Sometimes they appear on the blackboard concerts and sometimes they're not too bad but usually it's not my cup of tea.
However, if Paxton or Lightfoot were to come down under, I'm sure we could get bigger audiences than just house concerts. There was standing room only when Waterson Carthy came through a few years back.   
I agree with M.Ted that "the level of skills among revivalists are much closer to those of the source performers than ever--so it's not disappearing at all-quite the contrary--"
Robyn

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:17 PM

The economy is making it more difficult for musicians to find work. Money is not available to promote good music that much. Tours are being cancelled, the recording industry is on the skids, T.V. is about American Idol, restaurants and bars can't afford live music that much. It's not a generational thing. Money isn't there.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: GUEST,The Folk E
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:16 PM

"Technically, they are NOT folk songs - but I do happen to agree with you that "folk" is a term that has morphed with the times."

They are folk songs, Ron. People know them as folk music and they are being handed down and sung for decades at this point. In fact, they are much more folk music than much of the self-centered drivel that is performed and passed off as folk music today.   

You have a right to say what you think is a folk song, but not the exclusive right. Simply saying the times have morphed is again, I find a bit of a cop out.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 06:13 PM

"Early Morning Rain
My Ramblin' boy
Last thing On My Mind
Blowin' in the Wind
Where Have all The Flowers Gone
Puff The Magic Dragon

Written as commercial music or became folk music known by many because it could be related to by many? "

Technically, they are NOT folk songs - but I do happen to agree with you that "folk" is a term that has morphed with the times.

There are plenty of songs of that caliber being written today.   I am 52, but I happen to think some of the finest "folk" songs are being written today. Are they as POPULAR as they once were? No, but that has NOTHING to do with the music. Blame it on Clear Channel and the commercial entities that have sunk their claws into the "business".

"A cop out because it is no longer viable to a general audience in standard venues as clubs, concert halls, etc."
Not a cop out at all. It is a reality and it keeps the music viable, but not commercial.

There is a line drawn in the sand between traditional and contemporary, and if you throw in commercial, you have a weird triangle with everyone stareing at each other.

The fact remains, FOLK music - both traditional and contemporary singer-songwriter variety, are alive and well and perhaps stronger than ever. The music does not need to rely on a cash cow or filling arenas to survive - quite the opposite.   The folk revival nearly killed the beauty of the music and came close to reducing us to drippy songs that tried to emulate something that never was.

Don't write the obit for folk music, as Woody Guthrie said - there will always be folk music because theres lots of folk.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 06:01 PM

Just a thought....I heard this quote that I thought was quite appropriate for this thread:

"Antiques are things one generation buys, the next generation gets rid of, and the following generation buys again!"

For antiques substitute folk songs!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: GUEST,The folk E
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:50 PM

"The songs that we consider "folk" were not popular songs - they were found by collectors, published in books or later performed on recordings and became popular songs."

Early Morning Rain
My Ramblin' boy
Last thing On My Mind
Blowin' in the Wind
Where Have all The Flowers Gone
Puff The Magic Dragon

Written as commercial music or became folk music known by many because it could be related to by many?


"Folk music is not about commercial airplay or audiences. It is about making music and the role the music fills in a community."

So it has nothing at all to do with an audience or having any entertainment value? Perhaps that is why it is no longer popular.



"The fact is, the music is returning to the very venues were it was first performed - and the complications of audiences are not part of the factor."

A cop out because it is no longer viable to a general audience in standard venues as clubs, concert halls, etc. The house concerts are run because there is not much else except the private sector who has to move their furniture around to put on a show.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:02 PM

"The trouble is no one knows the songs of these singer/songwriters you mention, Ron exzcept for a very limited few and their songs stand a very small chance if any chance of being passed down or even learned by others"

The songs that we consider "folk" were not popular songs - they were found by collectors, published in books or later performed on recordings and became popular songs.   Most of those songs stood very little chance of being passed down or learned by others as the years passed.

Folk music is not about commercial airplay or audiences. It is about making music and the role the music fills in a community.

"Today's folk music is a mere shadow of what folk music was to the every day person "
Sorry, but that is nonsense. You are confusing commercial music with folk music.

"the mere fact that the rise of house concerts as it's leading venue speaks volumes of how the general public has cast it aside."
The fact is, the music is returning to the very venues were it was first performed - and the complications of audiences are not part of the factor.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:57 PM

And, sorry to say this, TFS, but you are a couple generations removed from the young people of today, and you're sounding a lot like those folks who used to say, "Bob Dylan can't sing. Al Jolson, now there was a singer."

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Betsy
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:51 PM

The last (and the lost) generation began when a stream of young talent ( here in the UK ) promoted to the concert scenario without barely touching the folk clubs - therefore young people never attended 'cos they had no one to identify with as the clubs were full of older people.
We seem to be getting like an old band of soldiers who are getting older and older...........you could be right Tom.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: GUEST,The Folk E
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:43 PM

Study, play, and teach.

What about just pure listeners and ones who just enjoy? Where is that audience?? In a small living room is about it.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:34 PM

The truth is that only some of the songs played when "Folk" music was popular were really "traditional" songs, and very little of either the singing or the instrumental music had much to do with "traditional" styles.

The revival of traditional singing and instrumental styles, and repertoire really developed after that, not because it was popular or marketable, but because people cared about it and were interested in it for it's own sake--there are way more people who have studied, can play, and teach traditional styles and repertoire than there were back then, and the level of skills among revivalists are much closer to the those of the source performers than ever--so it's not disappearing at all-quite the contrary--

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: GUEST,The Folk E
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:14 PM

The trouble is no one knows the songs of these singer/songwriters you mention, Ron exzcept for a very limited few and their songs stand a very small chance if any chance of being passed down or even learned by others.

I don't believe either that it will ever die completely, but the "commercial" days produced songs for the masses and it was not so much "me" centered as what is passing for folk music today is.

Today's folk music is a mere shadow of what folk music was to the every day person and the mere fact that the rise of house concerts as it's leading venue speaks volumes of how the general public has cast it aside. The bulk of it's audience relies on other like minded musicians, not even many non-musicians make up the ratio of it's audience I believe. The days of "commercial" folk music as you like to call it influenced many. I only see what is called folk music today influencing a very small number.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 03:43 PM

"I recently attended a Folk Alliance weekend and there was only one person in their 20s. The rest were aging, and rapidly."

I'm not sure what Folk Alliance event you attended, but I attend NERFA every year and I've been to the international conference a few times - I can safely say that the "20-something" generation is very well represented. Many of them are also doing traditional music as well as the singer-songwriter contingent. Watching the Blue Moose and the Unbuttoned Zippers was a perfect example. All in the early 20's, the group includes Bronwyn Byrd who built her own nyckelharpa.

In addition to some of the names already mentioned, songwriters like Anthony DaCosta, Zachary Stevenson, Emily Elbert and so many others and so many others are carrying on various traditions - songwriting and traditional.

I think Dick has it right. We might not be matching the numbers of the commercial days, but folk music is alive and well and being passed on to new generations who will add their own imprint.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 03:31 PM

One more thing. True, the economy would have something to do with some not coming to a folk concert, but one as the originator of this thread mentioned for the likes of a Tom Paxton is especially telling. Yes, he is old school, but many of his songs did become folk music standards, known by even the most casual of fans. That phenomenon by the likes of him and a Gordon Lightfoot and a few others will probably never be replicated on anything even remotely similar to a mass scale as their kind did.

Which is why folk Style music today and where it is headed will exist with many songs that will be known by very, very few outside of a very small circle.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 03:14 PM

"I'd just add to The Folk Entertainer's comments that being expected to know the "standards" is VERY intimidating to someone new to folk. Did any of the old regulars learn anything from the young musicians?"

Yes, we all learned that most of their singer/songwriter stuff was very self-centered, was all about trying to change the world, showed that they had no respect for what came before them, showed that they could not interact well musically with other musicians, and saddened most of the old timers, that things were not changing for the better.

Other than that, no we did not learn anything except that folk music as we knew it was a dying thing. Pretty sad, huh?

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 02:19 PM

Spot on Little Hawk. I think it's thriving too, but changing. Isn't this how it's supposed to be?

I'd just add to The Folk Entertainer's comments that being expected to know the "standards" is VERY intimidating to someone new to folk. Did any of the old regulars learn anything from the young musicians?

Pete.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 11:02 AM

Folk types, like most of the rest of the population, are often pulling their heads back into their shells, hunkering down, avoiding the stormy economic winds.

And back in the Thirties when that happened it produced come pretty good music.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 10:27 AM

If you insist on measuring an "entertainment" audience by the volume of paid admissions, you need to adjust for the current economic times. Folk types, like most of the rest of the population, are often pulling their heads back into their shells, hunkering down, avoiding the stormy economic winds.

It probably doesn't explain the whole phenomenon, but it's certainly part of what you're seeing.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 08:13 PM

I don't know. Tomorrow night we're doing a tribute to Utah Phillips concert. Yes, there are some veteran performer (fantastic ones). But there are also folks in their 20s, like Elizabeth LaPrelle and Brendan Phillips, and folks in their 30s like - well, me. It's a nice mix.

The legacy remains with us, even as the cast of characters begin to change.

Dan

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 08:08 PM

If you insist on calling it "folk music" and you expect it to continue to have the same repertoire and general approach that you favoured when you were young, then, yes....it's dying out.

If you don't insist on having it exactly meet those expectations, on the other hand, it's thriving. As for the trad stuff from the last few hundred years of folk music, I predict that it will have a resurgence at various times in the future when least expected. Meanwhile, there will be a lot of other interesting and unique music being done by young up and coming musicians who do not go the common commercial route, but find their own true expression.

I also predict that the mainstream media will ignore most of them, but I don't particulary give a damn about that.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM

The Scottish poet Hugh McDiarmid wrote a poem called Island Funeral. In it he recalls attending the funeral on a Scottish island of an old crofter and realising that she was one of the last, and that soon her way of life, craftsmanship, music etc will die out. He then takes the view that because these things are worthwhile, and founded deep in reality and humanity, they will come back. Though there will be periods when they are absent, and these periods may be long, in the long term they are essentially immortal.
"The sound of the Gaelic cornet
Will sound through these islands for all eternity.
I have heard it.
And am content forever."

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 07:32 PM

It can never be what it was when it WAS 'folk'...before recordings and radio/TV. But because many people DID record versions similar to what used to be heard in living rooms, and because collections like Child were done, much of the basics is available and will always be known....and I know several younger 'folk' who do the older stuff even as they write and add contemporary stuff also.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:54 PM

I believe that it is dying. I recently attended a Folk Alliance weekend and there was only one person in their 20s. The rest were aging, and rapidly.

At a folk jam I regularly attend, a wave of publicity led to a big showing of younger people attending for one evening only. None of them new any of the standards and none of them new how to interact musically with other musicians, so they did not come back next time, leaving just the old regulars. We tried with them, but they did not........get it.

I'm sorry, but folk music has lost it's way and even worse, it's spirit. Singer/songwriters are perhaps in the folk tradition, but they are not folksingers. There are very few around any more who can be called folksingers.

Things do end, I am sad to say. The world has changed. sorry to be a downer, but I do believe this.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:53 PM

No, it isn't the Last Generation. There are plenty of fine young performers coming along. The scene and the audience will keep changing along with the changing times. Didn't Bob Dylan say somethign about that once? ;-)

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:50 PM

Folk music--or something vaguely resembling it--was a mass entertainment phenomenon for some twenty years. Not as lasting as R&R--or even jazz.

So what? It's alive and kicking in homes, pubs, bars, campsites and wherever folks get together and sing and play music.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

From fields and back streets, to radio, back to obscurity, then to the 1950's coffee house, to the stage and television, then back to obscurity and into a new generation of coffee houses, eventually reaching a new audience. It won't end; it will be different, but it will go on.

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:30 PM

In the Occasional Musical News thread I recently posted a link to survey of the next generation of folkie stars. It is an encouraging article. The article is here.


A

Subject: RE: The Last Generation?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

I understand your feeling, Tom, but remember that this happens every so often. There were times when folks like Pete Seeger could barely pay bills. Folk, in all of its various forms, ebbs and flows. I hear many decry the singer-songwriter that calls him/herself a "folk" singer. The first time I heard this was in the early 60's. But what that interest in acoustic music spawned was a great interest in learning more and lead many of those decrying it today to folk music in the first place. I think what we are seeing is simply the folk process. It is pretty hard to kill something that has been around for so long.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: The Last Generation?
From: topical tom
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:11 PM

There is something that has been nagging at me now for some time.As a lover of folk, bluegrass and blues music, I try to attend as many concerts as I can.More and more I am coming to realize that even established folk legends, i.e. Tom Paxton and Arlo Guthrie to name a couple, are drawing far less than full houses. We attended those concerts in Montreal and the venues were a half to two-thirds full. The weather on those dates was good and no other factors should have kept people away.Is this the same scenario in other places around the world? If so, then I venture to say that this is the last generation of folk fans.