BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,

Subject: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 10:49 AM

Isn't it strange that we have had no comment on this
      from our resident promoters of homosexuality!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

Your point is?

The man is gay, and he is also a paedophile. If you want to make more of those two independent facts, PROVE a causative link. Elsewise, just crawl back under your bridge and wait for more goats.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:09 AM

Oh, my ake-ing back!

1) As you know, signified by your marks, these men are not homosexual- they are paedophiles.

2) Most of us haven't heard about it so we couldn't comment on it. This didn't happen in America. Like you, those men are Scottish.

3) I don't know anyone on the Mudcat, nor do you, who is a promoter of homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:10 AM

Yes it is a horrible case. However, I will restate the obvious, which is that not all homosexuals are paedophiles and that not all paedophiles are homosexuals. This man is rightly going to prison for paedophile activity. His homosexuality should be no more of an issue than the colour of his eyes or the length of his hair.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:12 AM

Well hello Ake!!!...Gosh, do you think that the jury was 'homophobic'? Do you think the judge was politically leaning to the 'right'? Do you think that they forgot that orangutans in Kenya, do it in the jungle, that it was perfectly normal??...or in the Mudcat Forums, that those making excuses for their, or their neglected children's behavior, that is was unreasonable, hostile bias??....and the defendant was unjustly accused?????? Why, this is an 'outrage' to all the 'normal rabid' heteros, who think that children should be taught in the home, by example, as well as mature parenting, about sexuality, and the interaction of of ADULTS who can 'tolerate' the opposite long sex enough to nurture their children!!..you know, those same intolerant, 'homophobic' parents that don't want their 6 and 7 year old children to be 'taught'(read: indoctrinated), by some homosexual activist 'teacher', who is just there laundering his or her, or 'its' agenda!
Oh well, Hi, anyway!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:15 AM

Well, thank you for bringing this appalling news to our attention.
But what makes you think most Gays will not be as shocked as you or I
now reading of the crimes of these 2 vile evil paedo perverts ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:22 AM

"It took six more weeks to unmask Rennie, who was arrested on December 16, 2007, at his flat in Edinburgh. Police initially struggled to identify the boy, but hours later an officer finally arrived at his home with horrific news for his parents. The life sentence for Child F's family had just begun."

Almost two years ago, akenaton. Why haven't you brought it to our attention sooner?


As Ebbie says - no one here PROMOTES homosexuality. Nor do we fear it.
Everyone here, I believe, is disgusted and horrifed by paedophiles whether gay or atraight. This animal has been molesting a child for years, since the baby was three months old. He was "Uncle Jamie" whom the family counted on to fill in as baby sitter whenever they needed. After years of abuse, his one slip-up was having a computer repaired. The photos were found and his downfall began. Cases like this make me wonder about the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:26 AM

Well, I promote homosexuality every chance I get. Wanna meet in a public toilet, Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:28 AM

Ebbie: After years of abuse, his one 'slip-up' was having a computer repaired.....
Yeah, damn 'slip ups'!!....interesting. I think you stated your position quite well!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:30 AM

Not all the TROLLS here sign in as guests.

I've done all this already, and moved on. I suggest leaving Ake to mumble to himself about our inability to see that if you can't see cats in pitch darkness they MUST all be black.

Out of here.....Enjoy!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:30 AM

Don...Ebbie...Alanbit...Don't you realize that heterosexual paedophilia is virtually unknown, whereas at least 99.99999% of gay men are actually paedophiles? You liberals can blind yourselves to anything .

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:32 AM

Missed my 'sign in' on the one above....

michaelr: Well, I promote homosexuality every chance I get. Wanna meet in a public toilet, Ake?
...Another class act!!!...Sure baby, your toilet or mine!?!?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:36 AM

As usual Ebbie is right-on with all the relevant viewpoints, with which I MOST emphatically agree.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:36 AM

It wasn't actually his computer - it belonged to the other guy who was caught with him.

I agree with erbert, in that most people, regardless of their sexuality, will be sickened by the behaviour of these paedophiles.

By the way, there is a difference between accepting differences in sexuality and promoting a hetero or homosexual lifestyle.

As was said by the actress, Mrs Patrick Campbell - "Does it really matter what these affectionate people do — so long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses!"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM

lol There is a paragraph above that would be hilarious in a skit. (Although, sad to say that the person has not yet learned to pay attention to who writes what.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:48 AM

What???......(Did I write that?)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:13 PM

Oh well done Ake.

Just to clarify the root of this issue, the last time I disagreed with ake was Here in the "pope on pedophile priests" thread.

A month has gone by and he has finally found a story that "proves" his opinion.

Congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM

Isn't it strange that we have had no comment, on a recent story in my local paper about a man who had been sexually abusing young girls for many years, before he was finally caught, from our resident promoters of heterosexuality!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:44 PM

Actually, GfS, you are quoting me:
Ebbie: After years of abuse, his one 'slip-up' was having a computer repaired.....
Yeah, damn 'slip ups'!!....interesting. I think you stated your position quite well!


Good point GUEST.
All homosexuals and all Scotsmen must be paedophiles. This story proves it.

Beam me up Scottie...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:46 PM

Alanbit: 'Yes it is a horrible case. However, I will restate the obvious, which is that not all homosexuals are paedophiles and that not all paedophiles are homosexuals'.....

..and the members of NAMBLA, are upstanding members of the PTA!!....Go figure......
Hey, come to think of it,,95% of all forest fires are caused by trees....right?
..Sorry Sinsull, I didn't give you correct acknowledgments!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:01 PM

blimey , so going by the prevailing logic..

"X is a Y and also a Z
therefore all Y's are Z"

.. if either one of them evil Scottish paedo perverts can be proven
to have ever played the bagpipes.. ?






ps.. anyone managed yet to find any old obscure news item
to prove the case that all banjo players are filthy disgusting perverts ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:14 PM

erbert, I did find something about "yodeling banjo players." Oh, the humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:19 PM

erbert: 'ps.. anyone managed yet to find any old obscure news item
to prove the case that all banjo players are filthy disgusting perverts ?'

What????..Everybody knows banjo players are perverts!..You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him play a banjo!....umm, or something like that...

Now as far as the bagpipes...hmmm, that requires a government funded study! Apply for the grant, maybe they'll give you enough for new pipes!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:20 PM

According to BlurtIt:
   It has been found that about 90% of forest fires are due to human factors. Smokers may start a forest fire by carelessly dropping lighted matches and cigarettes in a forest. Campers and picnickers or tourists may also start a fire by throwing lighted items on the ground or into the bushes. Some times sparks from locomotives powered by coal or wood may also ignite dry grass or trees beside the railway line.


Wrong again,GfS.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:29 PM

The complicating factor is that the man involved had been an extremely highly regarded activist on behalf of gay rights.

"an influential lobbyist who advised Scottish parliamentarians on youth policy, he rose to the height of his profession and was invited to receptions where he met the Queen and Tony Blair" and "the former chief executive of LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Trans-Sexual) Youth Scotland and a former president of Heriot-Watt University Students Association" ( Times Online)

That makes it a particularly shocking case, analogous in some ways to cases where other people in positions of trust have been found to have sexually abused children. It shouldn't be taken as suggesting that all gay men are pedophiles any more than all priests or all nursery assistants. But it is a reminder that respectability is no guarantee of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:32 PM

I think this story proves that all men are paedophiles.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:36 PM

It's not uncommon for paedophiles to become very trusted figures in the way this man did. It seems to provide some cover for them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:43 PM

Carol - We have had TWO cases in UK over this year that involved women running Nurseries who were molesting children in their care

And as an Ex Bagpiper (Sgt Piper , Raf Cosford Pipe Band) and current Banjo player I suppose I am very remisss in NOT being a pervert !

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:47 PM

and there was this man who came home to find that his girlfriend had packed her bags and was leaving him.
"Why?" he asked.
"Because I found out that you're a pedophile!" she answered (you can tell she was an American by the spelling)
"My, my. Such a big word for a ten-year-old".....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM

Carol - We have had TWO cases in UK over this year that involved women running Nurseries who were molesting children in their care

That settles it then. All adults are paedophiles.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 02:21 PM

It's more widespread than you think. My dog Sadie is not only aberrant, she's transgendered/gay. She tried to hump Falkner this AM. And THAT proves that all humans are also bestial-- if we are looking to offer extremes to match Ake.

~S~

Some of my best friends are.... HUMAN.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

MAybe it was meeting the Queen that turned him, ya think?


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

Isn't it strange that we have had no comment on this
      from our resident promoters of homosexuality!
And isn't is strange that some knobhead with peculiar personal hangups about homosexuality feels the need to start a thread in as inflammatory a fashion as possible and then bugger off?
Is any other comment really needed? The original poster clearly has issues which need professional help, and nothing that's added here is going to help him sort them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: gnu
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 03:02 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM

Jeezus, Scottish people sure are perverts!

**************************************************************

Not as perverted as you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: gnu
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 03:11 PM

Sorry.... I was just gonna ignore this thread and let it die as it should, but I found that comment by that idiot "too much".

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 04:52 PM

Why didn't the OP bring our attention to this one, or the original case that precipitated it? Could it be that he only regards paedophilia as abhorrent when it's perpetrated by homosexuals?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 05:13 PM

"ou can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him play a
banjo!.:GtS

Actually, that's a great line. Could wish you spent a little more time on that side of your personality.

McGrath, the fact that the man was such a 'respectable' member of society doesn't make his crimes worse. (Not that I think that is what you are saying.) The crimes themselves are so horrendous that nothing could possibly make them worse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 05:38 PM

Hi fans...been working late!

Don.. so now members who don't share your views are "trolls"..very convenient!

Ebbie
1 These creatures were homosexuals and paedophiles. They also were members of a larger ring several of whom have been already sentenced.
2 The race or nationality of either has no bearing on their sexual behaviour.
3 Mr Peekstock styles himself a "heterosexual homosexual activist", he is supported by many of the knee jerk "liberals" here.

Sinsull.. these people were only sentenced on 30th Oct. The story was carried on the main pages of the Times (not an "obscure" story) and had not come to my attention before.

Sanity
Good to see you back, your input is always original and welcome.

Alanabit
No one is suggesting that "all homosexuals are paedophiles", but the ever increasing number of cases of sexual abuse of young boys by adult male homosexuals does point to a possible propensity in that direction.
Any study of homosexual history will show abuse of young boys was common an certainly not frowned upon.

Susan..many of my friends are HUMAN....none are PAEDOPHILES.

As usual,with a few exceptions, contributers to this thread are more concerned with saving the face of homosexual paedophiles than with the abused children or their families....enough said!

Mr McGrath.. as you know, we do not always agree on this forum, but I respect you as one of the most reasoning members here.
You have gone straight to the crux of why I opened this thread
"The complicating factor is that the man involved had been an extremely highly regarded activist on behalf of gay rights."
That fact in itself surely opens the door for a discussion on homosexuality and a possible propensity to paedophilia, or would such a discussion be forbidden by the "thought police"

The case of the care nurse who took pictures of herself abusing children in her care, although disgusting, appears to be a red herring, as these women seem to have be under the influence/ control of a man.......It is EXTREMELY rare to find a case of a woman sexually abusing young children...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:32 PM

Oh dear me!!....The remark about 95% 0f all forest fires is caused by trees, is satire..and actually used by Pat Paulsen, on the 'Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour'!, in the mid 60's..Just Goes to show ya'!..Jeez, some people just want to argue at the drop of a hat!
Just for those who DON'T get it..its used to denote a response to ridiculous arguments...(*sigh*)..So, I guess I stand corrected(?)...Good thing you aren't a fundamentalist Christian!..you'd be spending more time legalistic arguing with other fundamental Christians, than you would be practicing the 'Golden Rule'!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:36 PM

Ebbie: "ou can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him play a
banjo!.:GtS

Actually, that's a great line. Could wish you spent a little more time on that side of your personality.

See what reading can do for ya' Ebs..glad to provide you with great literature! Might work wonders on your personality as well! Just look what we can do for each other!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:43 PM

"with a few exceptions, contributers to this thread are more concerned with saving the face of homosexual paedophiles than with the abused children or their families"
Akeneton, how dare you; go back and quote any statement in this thread which constitutes a defence of any pedophile.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:58 PM

Perhaps I better explain what I meant Frogprince.

I wouldn't expect anyone here to defend paedophilia, but many of the posts contain no expression of sympathy for the abused children or their families, while forcefully making the point that "there is no connection between homosexuality and paedophilia"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:07 PM

The OP made no expression of sympathy for the children either, while he did make a reference to "our resident promoters of homosexuality". It would certainly appear that homosexuality rather than child abuse was the issue that the OP wanted discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: bobad
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:08 PM

"there is no connection between homosexuality and paedophilia"

If by that you mean that some paedophiles are homosexual then it can also be said that there is a connection between heterosexuality and paedophilia as some heterosexuals are paedophiles.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM

ake...if you read properly, instead of just interpreting posts YOUR way, you'd realize that no one is saying "There in NO connection..", but merely that it is not a regular, causal connection. And why would NOT typing specific expressions of sympathy imply that one is not opposed to abuse of children?

You have a serious case of "If you are not totally with me, you are against me."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:20 PM

Fair enough Bill, I accept what you say up to a point, but I didn't say anyone here is not opposed to the abuse of children.
I simply said that most were more concerned with defending homosexuals than in expressing sympathy for the abused.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: sing4peace
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:44 PM

We Mudcatters often don't agree on things but I am certain that all who have posted here share a deep sorrow for the victims of these crimes. We disagree on several points of blame and logic here though.

From working six years as a legal secretary for the public defender's office, I observed that most pedophiles (as it's spelled here in the U.S.) were heterosexual men. That does not mean that homosexuals and women aren't also capable of abusing children. If there is any one unifying factor it is that the perpetrators were adults. ome of them just barely.

Abuse transcends the lines of gender, sexual orientation, class, ability, religion, country and professional,public or private accomplishment. Abuse ripples and renders for generations.

There are people from all walks of life abusing children right now as we are having this conversation. Many of those perpetrators were abused as children themselves and repeat the crime again and again in much the same way other traumatized people are drawn to repeat the patterns of the trauma. Not excusing anything here - only explaining causal relationship.

Often abuse is known about by other people but never spoken of for fear of getting involved or of embarrassing the victim. Through silence and inaction, entire communities of people can be collusive in the abuse of a child.

Homophobia (or xenophobia for that matter) is an easy energy to manipulate when people want to scape goat and focus attention on just one sector of humanity in an attempt to deflect attention away from the sins of their "own kind".

Humans of all stripes are capable of such violence - but they are also capable of great compassion and courage. It doesn't help us to protect children from predators or help us to advance past the violent culture we live in to perpetuate inaccurate conclusions based on hatred and fear.



Joyce

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:11 PM

"...most were more concerned with defending homosexuals..."

It seems to me that most are just expressing the idea that *homosexuality* is one natural mode of being.

There are abusers who are heterosexual as well. ALL abusers of children should be opposed and prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:24 PM

It is inevitable that when a leading member of a community is convicted of sexually abusing children, including in this case a baby, that will be seen as reflecting on the whole community. That applies just as much when the community involved is the gay community as it does when it is a religious community. (And vice versa, of course.) And it is inevitable that it will get used as ammunition by people who for other reasons are hostile.

At the same time it is reasonable to wish for some examination of whether there is anything in the culture of the community which may have contributed to what happened, or disarmed suspicion of the individuals involved.

It is perfectly right to contest the absurd notion that being homosexual and being a paedophile are the same thing, That makes no more sense than suggesting that being heterosexual and being a paedophile are the same thing. But while no one would dream of suggesting that it is possible to assume that heterosexuals cannot be paedophiles, there are people who come perilously close to asserting the equivalent position for homosexuals.

The truth is, there are gay paedophiles, and there are bisexual paedophiles, just there are straight paedophiles.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:41 PM

McGrath: 'The truth is, there are gay paedophiles, and there are bisexual paedophiles, just there are straight paedophiles.'

That is true..there is no corner on what group will go over the limit...but then, there is NAMBLA...which is comprised basically of homosexual 'paedophile likes'. I do not recall a hetero group, of either sex belonging to any comparable group..or do I know of any that exist! Methinks its just another 'attempt' to try to legitimize ..ummm...'diversity'? ...oh well..'equal rights'(?), eh?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM

sing4ppeace has brought another healthy dose of realistic perspective, based on actual experience, to the matter.

Akenaton, do you realize that you give the impression that you believe that a homosexual man who is not a pedophile is an exception?
You may not come anywhere near actually believing that, but you really do tend to give the impression that you believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:55 PM

Actually, these events make a case in favor of same-sex marriage:

If the homosexual pedophiles could get married, they wouldn't have to bugger other peoples' children.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 09:11 PM

As stated in the article Ake linked to:

Many close to the case have expressed revulsion at the profound breach of trust behind Rennie's behaviour. Child F's father told The Times that he took another view. "I see Rennie as somebody who I thought I knew, but actually I didn't know that person at all," he said. "That person is someone I once spent a lot of time with, a face I know and recognise because we shared experiences together. But he was actually an outrageous and disgusting monster.

Ake, I would doubt that there's any current truth in Ake's statement that "he is supported by many of the knee jerk 'liberals' here."

He was a traitor to his, cause, Ake. Certainly, other causes have traitors, don't they?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 09:24 PM

Art Said:

"The OP made no expression of sympathy for the children either, while he did make a reference to "our resident promoters of homosexuality". It would certainly appear that homosexuality rather than child abuse was the issue that the OP wanted discussed."

Exactly!

Touche.

Ake posted to prove his old tired laboured point and never gave any indication that he gave a flying fig about the victims.


Continued condemnation of "liberals" (from the guy who detests meaningless labels ...) is just a continuation of the same old axe grinding and would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.


Watch this space - in a month we'll see proof that polish immigrants are responsible for the credit crunch.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 09:36 PM

NAMBLA is not a gay rights group. It is a pederast rights group. It has one issue: lowing the age of consent for young males. There is a big difference between gay rights and what NAMBLA is all about. Most other gay rights groups disagree with and want nothing to do with NAMBLA.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 09:40 PM

This thread proves, once again, that you can lead a Mudcatter to muddy troll waters, but you can't keep him from drinking, so to speak. *sigh* Double, double troll and trouble...(with apologies to Shakespeare.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 09:41 PM

Let's face it, Ake is the Rush Limbaugh of Mudcat.

Same hate-mongering, same spittle-spraying, same respect for the facts. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: LilyFestre
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 10:08 PM

One look at the title of this thread and I knew who was responsible and what irrational line of thinking would follow.

I haven't bothered to read an Ake thread or comment in a LONG time. Nothing has changed. He's still an ass.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 10:46 PM

Oh ohh, here comes the name calling again...
Please, all you 'open minded wonderful folkies', let's be above that..at least this time. Let's keep the discussion on topic. Last time, when this subject was broached, the 'arguments' just got to stupid to even respond to...and FACTS were ignored, or mixed with politics...which of course, has very little to do with facts, truth, or science!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: LilyFestre
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:08 PM

Ok, how about let's just say that Ake has an ongoing agenda full of hate and unreasonableness?

Even if he is an ass. *GRIN*

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:28 PM

Golly gee, are you intimating, that if you wiped that grin off your face, you'd use toilet paper???..Just teasing,..but I could barely resist that one..none the less let's rise above any real hostility, but a good quip is still a good quip..even Ebs found them entertaining, up there in the cold country...GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:43 PM

Of course the man-boy love thing is an attempt to legitimize their actions; but have you ever heard of a living soul, outside of their own membership, who is buying that attempt in the name of "liberalism" or the acceptance of "diversity".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:54 PM

Frogprince:'Of course the man-boy love thing is an attempt to legitimize their actions; but have you ever heard of a living soul, outside of their own membership, who is buying that attempt in the name of "liberalism" or the acceptance of "diversity".

Yes, once in a while, one of their 'constituents', does an interview on one of the 'news' shows...That's how I even heard of them. They pound the same message about 'equality' and 'legitimacy'. By the way, their 'motto' is "Sex before eight, before it's to late". As for me, I think they should be arrested for either, child endangerment, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, or statutory rape, or conspiracy to commit rape of a minor, and or soliciting a minor, or conspiracy to solicit...just for starters!!!!

Hope that doesn't bum you out!..GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:54 PM

And Guest from "Sanity(?)," you are in the same bag as Ake when it comes to respect for facts.

Today was an off-year election day here in Washington state, and one of the issues on the ballot was an attempt by out of state religious groups to rescind a law recently passed by the state legislature giving the same legal rights to domestic partners as married couples. It's another of these hyper-religious outfits who are dedicated to opposing same-sex marriage. Carpetbaggers with neon halos. For the last several weeks we've had to listen to their crap in political adds on radio and television and I'm bloody sick and tired of their hate-mongering. "Christians" indeed!!!

And then Ake comes in with his wheelbarrow full of hate. . . .

The returns haven't come in yet, so the matter in this state is still up in the air.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 12:16 AM

A few precincts reporting in. So far, the initiative upholding domestic partnership rights is ahead by a nice margin!

A tentative yippee hooray!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 12:28 AM

Don, Ake is a self declared atheist. Are you being a little..umm let's see...uhh...bigoted towards Christians??? If so, just make the 'politically correct' adjustment. I think Ake would assure you, his views are not religious based. Try cleaning up just 'your side of the street'...Just a suggestion, and meant in good spirit...GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 12:57 AM

GfS, there are Christians, and then there are "Christians."

If you will just pay attention, you will note that when I mentioned the "Christian" carpetbaggers who are trying to diddle with the laws in this state (the same outfit that screwed around with California's same-sex marriage law), I was not referring to Ake. But the intent of both Ake, this group, and apparently you, is the same:   stomp on the civil rights of others.

My side of the street is nice and clean, but thank you for your concern.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 01:05 AM

And as far as being bigoted toward Christians, GfS, I am a member of Central Lutheran Church here in my neighborhood.

No, I'm not the bigot here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:17 AM

Don, Your assumption that I am trying to stomp the civil rights of others, is indeed, incorrect. Personally, I disagree with Christian political activism, nor am I in much 'agreement' with any religious denominations. Jesus himself said, for all those even interested, to "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of Caesar". I'm sure your Lutheran Bible has that quote. It means, to be wary of religious, and political worlds.

That being said, the thread is about a homosexual activist, who was found guilty of some rather extreme paedophilia crimes against, not only children, but even of infants! I think even you can agree that, in this case, and even in others, that there is no call to recognize it as anything other, that a perverted crime against humanity, and not to make allowances, for a bias, toward this homosexual, just for the cause of homosexuality.

Jesus also said, "Whomever offends one of these(referring to children), it would be better to place a millstone around his neck, and..." I should assume you know the rest.

I mention this because of your reference to being a Lutheran, and a Christian, I take it.

Now that that has been said, not all who see homosexuality as 'wrong', immoral, or a destructive element, are necessarily, basing it on a 'religious' belief....(such as Ake). But, because of the other thread, that turned into a circus of mindless political activism over truth, one could easily assume, that there was some 'unfinished business', that perhaps hasn't been resolved. Nonetheless, lets agree, that in this thread, to stay on topic...okay?..Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:53 AM

Oh Lillyfester!......I think that may be the same "reasonable" young lady who stated in a previous thread on a related subject, that I had "probably abused my own children".
My views on the fostering of young children by male homosexuals prompted this outburst. As a large section of the population share my views, it is more than obvious that Michelle's opinions are far from reasonable.

Sanity, don't waste your time!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:02 AM

What I don't understand is why Akenaton is complaining that no one else has commented on the story here before him. Are we supposed to spend all our time scanning every local newspaper before coming to Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:14 AM

Manitas.....Don't know where you live (Spain?) but I can assure you that "The Times" is not a local newspaper.
This article was carried on two main news pages.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:23 AM

"My views on the fostering of young children by male homosexuals...."
What are those views?
There has been an ongoing investigation here in Ireland and elsewhere into the paedophelia practiced by members of the church on children placed in their care (on a massive scale and stretching back many decades) and the covering up of the rape and sexual and physical abuse that has been proven to have taken place, by leading members of the church.
Do you believe that all church officers (or all Catholics, or maybe all Christians, for that matter) are (potential or practicing) paedophiles and should be prohibited from fostering young children - if not, why not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:37 AM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:42 AM

Sorry Jim....I had a response typed, but it seems to have got lost en route.
I'm just off to work so I've no time to re-print.
You make an interesting point so I'll get back later...apologies Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:11 AM

The Times is local to the UK, but why should you think that it's strange that no one commented before you?

Did it make the Egyptian papers, btw?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:43 AM

"From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:17 AM

I find it strange that Ake didn't comment sooner.. "



      ROFL

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: kendall
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:53 AM

All Indians walk single file. How do I know? Because I saw an Indian once and he was walking single file.So, I must believe my own eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 05:29 AM

As a large section of the population share my views
That doesn't make them right. A large section of the population believes that Saddam Hussein was responsible for September 11th. A large section of the population believes that there is no human factor in climate change. A large section...
I could go on. *yawn*
Akenaton; you clearly have unresolved issues involving sexuality. You really should seek some sort of help.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 06:50 AM

Here's an article that discussesFacts about Homosexuality and Child Molestation

This is point is established in the article:

" many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes."

Another interesting fact is that only a relatively small minority of the population believe a Akenaton does.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 07:07 AM

Ah. Having just found what may be a snap of young Ake carelessly left online, this may go some way to explaining why he worries about unwanted attention.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: kendall
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 07:16 AM

Old Jewish saying, "Everyone needs a dog to kick."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:25 AM

McGrath: It is inevitable that when a leading member of a community is convicted of sexually abusing children, including in this case a baby, that will be seen as reflecting on the whole community. That applies just as much when the community involved is the gay community as it does when it is a religious community. (And vice versa, of course.) And it is inevitable that it will get used as ammunition by people who for other reasons are hostile.

There is a big difference between these two examples. The Catholic Church, as an organization, conspired to keep known pedophiles from being prosecuted. LOTS of bishops and cardinals were knowingly complicit in protecting the perverts. That's why many of us think this reflects badly on the whole organization. The mainstream gay organizations, on the other hand, find child rape as abhorrent as the rest of us.

I'm amazed that any child raper would be so stupid as to belong to an organization that promotes child rape. I'm shocked that he wasn't caught a long time ago. Maybe the police up there in Scotland are as stupid as the perverts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:57 AM

""Fair enough Bill, I accept what you say up to a point, but I didn't say anyone here is not opposed to the abuse of children.
I simply said that most were more concerned with defending homosexuals than in expressing sympathy for the abused.""

NOPE! The following is what you said:-

""Isn't it strange that we have had no comment on this
      from our resident promoters of homosexuality!""

I see no reference to the children, no reference to sympathy, in fact, no reference to abuse except indirectly.

The single reference is to fictional "resident promoters of homosexuality."

You throw out argumentative comment with the firm intention of provoking exactly the response you get. You would have NO hesitation in naming another who did that as a troll, so what else would YOU call yourself?

I can't be bothered any more with dealing with single issue nutcases who ignore evidence, deny fact, and scream about everybody else's life instead of getting a life themselves.

Good luck with it, matey, beat your brains out. It's your funeral.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 11:28 AM

Just for the record, GtS, your own biases taint your reportage. Jesus is not quoted as saying: Beware the leaven of the Pharisees and of Caesar.

It is your own agenda that made you bring in politics. Don't you think your credibility would improve if you stuck to truth?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 11:51 AM

ok, now we've reached the point in the 'debate'
when folk are searching for relevant quotes in the Bible...

I might as well refer to an equally useful
and much more contemporary source of contemplations on socio-cultural mores and received wisdom..

"sickipedia"


"My neighbours just found out that I'm on the sex offenders list
and have demanded that I move out of the area
as they fear that I am a danger to their son.

Their son? I'm a paedophile, I'm not gay."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM

Ebbie:Leaven of Herod or Herodians > Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Mar 12:13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

Matthew 22:15-16 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 16. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

Herod was descended from a family of Edomites - his mother was a Samaritan. Appointed by Rome, he was not a Jew but became ruler or king over the Jews, and made religion part of the state. It is reported that many Jews did not accept Herod as the legitimate king, because he was not from the lineage of David, and was appointed by Rome.

You are correct, the line was not Caesar, but Herod, appointed by Caesar, from Rome. It still represents the political hypocrisy, of which I was referring. But, Thank you for pointing that out! I mistakenly quoted the study notes, on the subject...but not the meaning.

P.S. I was about to blast away, but I think you can see that I held fire before I checked it out...but as I said before, it does not change the meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 12:31 PM

erbert, We cross threaded. You are right, at least in the coherent part of your post, but I was merely responding to Don's post, and clarifying to Ebbie's.

But I agree, as stated before, let's stay on topic, though my response to Don was. The clarification was just that, a clarification...GfS

In the course of my clarification, it underlined, even better than I originally stated, about mixing the hypocrisy found in religious world, into the hypocrisy of the political world, and actually agreeing with Don(can it be??).

That being said, and a little off topic, so I won't dwell on it much more in this thread, let's not confuse 'religion' with the spiritual, nor let's not confuse politics with truth!!!..GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: meself
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 12:53 PM

Were the Pharisees paedophiles, then? And were the Edomites sodomites? I'm confused.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 01:00 PM

I should have checked, no doubt. I only knew that Caesar was not in the admonition. As in many cases of the bible, the line is given in several books.

The one I am familiar with is in Matthew, not Mark: Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

It then goes on to say the well-known "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:05 PM

GfS, 'tis said that "Even the Devil quotes Scripture."

I have yet to find a bigot who wasn't able to quote vast quantities of the Bible to support his or her position. Invariably, however, the Scripture they chose to quote is taken out of context and combined with other verses, also taken out of context, in a convoluted effort to try to make the Bible appear to support some totally outrageous idea that is not remotely endorsed by Judaism and/or Christianity. Everything from Millenialists and Rapture nuts to serial killers to hate-mongers. And bigots. Especially bigots.

Also, knowing the history of how the Bible was put together in the first place, then edited and fiddled with by bishops, abbeys, and scribes, I know that one is on very thin ice when on tries to claim that the Bible is "the inerrant word of God." Obviously, therefore, I am not a Fundamentalist.

Don't try to get into a religious argument with me, GfS. I'm one of the few people who have actually read the Bible all the way through, not just hopping from verse to disconnected verse like a frog with the hiccups. And if it's something I'm not sure about, I can telephone any or all of six Lutheran pastors, a couple of Baptists, a Methodist, a couple of Episcopalians, and a Catholic priest and ask. When someone is trying to con me, I know it.

Don Firth

P. S. Also, I recognize Ake's feeble attempt to repeat the canard that all homosexuals are pedophiles. This is a favorite bit of misinformation that homophobes have either bought themselves in their self-chosen ignorance, or even knowing that it's not the case, are trying to get others to believe. Not to mention your particular hobby-horse from previous threads that same-sex orientation is a matter of choice (long since disproved) rather that an inborn predisposition.

I also know why you have a vested interest in that position.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:09 PM

By the way, about 70% of the votes have been counted and the out-of-state supposedly Christian-based attempt to have Washington State's domestic partnership law repealed appears to be going down in defeat.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:40 PM

, but many of the posts contain no expression of sympathy for the abused children or their families

I quote your OP in its entirety:

Isn't it strange that we have had no comment on this
      from our resident promoters of homosexuality!

Full of sympathy for the children and thgeir families. And still no explkanation of why you are so opposed to male homosexual paedophilia, while ignoring the (possibly more common) heterosexual and (possibly less common) female homosexual varieties.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:08 PM

I recognize Ake's feeble attempt to repeat the canard that all homosexuals are pedophiles.

Has he ever actually asserted that?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:29 PM

Yes, Kevin, in the previous thread about California's Proposition 8. A bit of a confession, in fact, and one that he/she probably wishes he/she hadn't made, because it reveals a great deal about why he/she insists on holding that position.

Has to do with fear that the recently discovered evidence that sexual orientation may be a genetic predisposition rather than a matter of free choice is true. Lots of supporting evidence that GfS vociferously denies. On the basis of one of GfS's posts on that thread, I have a pretty good idea why.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:37 PM

Sorry, Kevin, I misread your post. Ake rather than GfS (but what I said regarding GfS's motivation still holds).

Ake's implication that all homosexuals are pedophiles is inherent in his original post. The very fact that he chose to post that story and try to use it to attack "our resident promoters of homosexuality" says so eloguently.

Clear as crystal.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 03:49 PM

"Clear as crystal" is another of those treacherous metaphors, because the view one sees through crystal,is often very far from clear.

Which paradoxically may in fact make it an appropriate metaphor in this particular case.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:10 PM

C'mon, Kevin. Picky picky picky.

My meaning is perfectly clear, even if you find the metaphor "treacherous."

I could get quite specific, complete with quotes from former posts on the aforementioned other thread, but I chose not to at the moment.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:15 PM

Kevin, if you don't find Ake's intended meaning perfectly clear, go to the beginning of the thread and read his original post.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM

"Ake's implication that all homosexuals are pedophiles is inherent in his original post."

I think I would clarify Ake's implication which was that If you leave a gay man with kids long enough and deny him access to other gay men, he will turn to them for release - while a heterosexual man would not do the same thing.

The rationale appears to be that one is either a pervert or not and that as Gays are perverts therefore they would enjoy doing the things other perverts do - and as gays and pedophiles are all perverts therefore child abuse is a natural release for a homosexual.

And all this has been churning round in his head for years, during which time, the thought of two men having sex has frequently upset him.

Personally, I tend not to spend my time thinking about two men having sex.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

Oh yes - I nearly forgot...

... and the OP is clearly meant as evidence that Gay men can't be trusted to be left alone with children or they will inevitably rape them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:52 PM

I have a female acquaintance of the hard-charging, bra-burning, combat-boot wearing feminist persuasion who is convinced that NO man can be trusted alone around children. Not even for a few minutes.

Bad experience with a male relative when she was small. She doesn't blame that specific man. She blames men.

Sadly, one sees all too much of this kind of illogical jump from the specific to the universal. It's the basis for a great deal of bigotry.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 05:19 PM

She wouldn't like me then ... being a single dad 'n all ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 05:38 PM

hmmm.. aahh...
I think I finally get the hang of this kind of arguement..

So if some here believe
that all gays are not to be trusted alone with children;

by the same logic it could just as easily be 'proven'
that all obsessively homophobic gay bashers
are actually repressed latent homosexuals living a life of pained confusion and futile denial !

hmmm..so then.. therefore..

its just as reasonable to claim

all raving obsessive homophobes are potential gay pervert child molesters!!!???

y'know there's a lot to be said for the value of logical discourse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 05:40 PM

Yeah, she might even call the police on the basis of that alone. She just knows.

Kinda rabid. I don't really like talking with her. Any time I have the affrontery to disagree with something she says, she responds by saying something like, "Well, I would expect a man to say that!"

I feel sorry for her because of what her relative did to her way back (may he burn in hell), but I find it most unpleasant to be around someone who is that permanently hostile.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Royston
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 05:42 PM

well I'm glad this post cropped up, because I was feeling some guilt about assumptions I had made that Ake might have been a decent sort that I mistook for a bigot. Ake; you proved me right, you are a nasty piece of work.

You introduced this story with a flourish of prurient 'I told you so' towards the 'homosexualists' as you probably see them. You clearly expected that people who advocate tolerance and equality for gay or lesbian people should need to apologise or atone personally for the vile acts of one or more criminals that happened to be gay. It says a lot more about you than it does about anyone else.

A very dear friend of mine, no longer with us, was a family social worker who would attest with experience to the fact that most paedophiles are the heterosexual fathers of the unfortunate victims. This matches the experience of an earlier poster with experience of the US legal syste

I hope you get some help getting over yourself or whatever experiences have left you this way.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 05:58 PM

As I took it, the point that Ake saw as significant was not that this unsavoury character "happened to be gay", but rather that he had been a leading spokesman and advocate for gay rights, who had been recognised as such at a very high level.

If he had been a leading member of a (predominently heterosexual)group such as Families Need Fathers, the same kind of issues would have arisen.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 06:56 PM

In fact I believe it was later shown that the guy in question was in fact an activist for the rights of pedophiles.

For the record, it so happens that "fathers for justice" disbanded because their membership was becoming increasingly comprised of unsuitable fathers who's "rights" wre taken away for very good reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Royston
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 07:03 PM

Sorry McG, you are talking about the words

"Isn't it strange that we have had no comment on this
      from our resident promoters of homosexuality! "

Which are short, precise and unmistakably to the point "I told you so" and dripping with bile and prejudice towards gay people and those who would argue for equality and tolerance.

Shame.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 07:13 PM

I don't think Ake posted it because the guy 'just happened to be gay'. I think the ONLY reason he posted it was because the pedophile was gay.

It strikes me as fairly indicative that something's not quite right when the most important thing is that the person was gay. The actual crimes are not as significant--they only support his belief that gay = evil.

I'm also fairly surprised that so many people bit the bait, but it's pretty much the same bunch of us that always do. Every damned time...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:35 PM

Jeri, there is a difference between taking a troll's bait and speaking out to take issue with a statement which is a deliberate attempt to spread misinformation. Not to speak up when one sees an obvious deception in progress is to implicitly condone that deception.

I don't believe either Ake or GfS will ever see the error of their ways. They have too much emotional investment in their prejudices. I do not harbor the misconception that anything I say or any evidence I present, no matter how correct and convincing it is seen to be by a rational person, will ever change either of their minds.

But exposing a falsehood and trying to change the mind of the spreader of that falsehood are two different issues. One can refute Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly (quite easily, actually), and undeceive someone who might naively believe something they claim, but one will never get either of them to change their positions. Their livelihood depends on it. They're professional manure-spreaders.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Gust from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:53 PM

Don:'Don't try to get into a religious argument with me, GfS. I'm one of the few people who have actually read the Bible all the way through'

Any time, any place...except on this thread, which would be off topic!!!

Don:'Has to do with fear that the recently discovered evidence that sexual orientation may be a genetic predisposition rather than a matter of free choice is true. Lots of supporting evidence that GfS vociferously denies.'

Evidence, against the FACTS!!!! Still they HAVE NOT found the gene!!!!(which I factually posted several links before, which you readily skirt around!!
...and not on this thread!!!...so stop trying to bait me..GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 11:09 PM

Facts that you find uncomfortable, so you simply deny them. And the matter is quite germaine to this thread. It shows the motivation of those who are trying to spread the misinformation.

You claimed on the other thread to be counsellor.   "Physician, heal thyself."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 11:31 PM

Facts that you find uncomfortable, so you simply deny them. And the matter is quite germaine to this thread. It shows the motivation of those who are trying to spread the misinformation.

The weak accuse others of their own faults

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 03:20 AM

Never got a reply to my comments about the wholesale rape by clerics of children in their care - and there was me looking forward to a churchless/religionless future..... ah well!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 03:33 AM

Jim...I've been too busy to reply....The wood burning stove business is going mad!

Try to contain yourself, I'm just as frustrated as you   :0)....I dont even have time to read all the messages above...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Smedley
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM

Let me summarise them for you then, Ake:

you're a homophobe

you have issues

you're a hypocrite

you like to provoke

and, as the length of this thread shows, you're rather good at it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:16 AM

A) "All gay people are paedophiles" is clearly offensive nonsense; and so is "All paedophiles are gay".

B) "No gay people are paedophiles" and "No paedophiles are gay" are clearly, regrettably, false.

The trouble is that attempts to challenge the nonsensical propositions in A can be confused with defending the equally nonsensical propositions in B, and the other way round.

And if we think our opponent is saying something as offensive as "All gay people are paedophiles" or as dangerously misleading as "No paedophiles are gay", it is no wonder if tempers get raised.

(Replace "gay" by "straight" in this post if you prefer.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: kendall
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:36 AM

I always like to ask a hard question of people who think being gay is a choice. I ask, "When did you decide to be straight"? Or, "Have you any idea why the males of all mammalian species have nipples"?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:48 AM

But would the question "when did you decide to be a non-smoker?" be a very effective way of challenging the idea that smoking is a choice?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: kendall
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:12 PM

Sure it would.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

Anyone who thinks being gay is a choice doesn't have a very good memory of their early teens. If you are straight, when you hit 12 or 13 or whenever your sexual awakening was, was there really any chance that you wouldn't be obsessing about members of the opposite sex? What makes you think anyone else is any different?

McGrath, please get your logic in better order. Comparing sexual orientation to being a smoker or not being a smoker is really dumb. I'll ask you outright: Do you think most gay people choose to be gay?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:48 PM

But would the question "when did you decide to be a non-smoker?" be a very effective way of challenging the idea that smoking is a choice?

Apples and Oranges.
Sexuality is an inherent part of our being. Putting a piece of burning tobacco wrapped in paper to your lips and inhaling is not.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM

""But would the question "when did you decide to be a non-smoker?" be a very effective way of challenging the idea that smoking is a choice?""

Yes it would, because everybody can remember the first time that they had the opportunity to smoke, and the choice they made at that time to say yes or no.

The same is not true of either heterosexuals or homosexuals when asked to recall exactly when they had the choice, and what they decided.

I always fancied girls, and never gave boys a second thought except as rivals, but I never made a conscious, reasoned, decision to be straight. I JUST AM!

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:59 PM

About the "gay gene" debate:

It is clear that no such "smoking gun" single gene has been found...see this article in Discover magazine (5 pages), or this one by an AP science writer....or many other articles.

But what IS becoming clear is that there is more & more evidence that a number of genetic , environmental AND some cultural factors do influnce humans in their sexual orientation. It is far from simple 'free choice'.

The various studies indicate statistically that DNA, brain chemistry, and other factors in heredity point to some degree of causative influences...and more evidence appears every year.

It has seemed to me for years that those who are repelled by homosexuality and/or were brought up in opposition to it..often in religious circumstances, will look for any justification for the claim that it is 'abnormal' or 'against nature' or 'perverted' or whatever phrase they prefer. In contrast, many of the researchers who are finding the evidence I refer to are NOT gay, and have only an interest in 'good science'.

Being 'straight',myself, I do not appreciate being targeted by a gay guy...though it has happened only a couple of times. But all I thought, even then, was that it was rude and awkward....not that they had any 'choice' to be the way they were. (Bear in mind that in Kansas in the 1950s & 1960s, it was not easy for gays & lesbians to find willing partners! Sometimes, they just made a bad guess.)

It is a loaded topic, and I suspect that no matter how much evidence is found, that many will never reconcile the idea that "those people" can't usually control what their sexual orientation is.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 02:02 PM

With many human activities there is an element of choice and an element of inner compulsion. That appears to hold for smokers, in that many people find it pretty easy to avoid becoming smokers or to give it up, while others seem to find it impossible to stop smoking. The same goes for drinking.

The assumption that this does not hold when it comes to sexual behaviour is open to question.

Whether it's a matter of choice or compulsion does not alter how we should behave towards people who differ from us in such matters. For example, even if we think that smoking is an unfortunate compulsion or an unwise choice, that does not give us the right to insult smokers.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 02:56 PM

Good articles, Bill!

GfS hangs his/her whole snarl on the idea that a "gay gene" has not actually been found. However—

In the mid-1800s, Gregor Mendel was able to trace genetically determined characteristics without even knowing that there was such a thing as genes or DNA molecules.

Same-sex orientation seems to run in families. I observed this in the family of a friend of mine, and it can't simply be explained by trying to claim that one member of the family introduced the other members into homosexuality. An uncle here and a couple of cousins there, and the family is scattered across the country and some of them, though related, have never met.

So far, all indications are that the tendency toward this orientation comes through the female line. It may not be as simple as a "gay gene." The truth is that it is quite probably a number of factors, perhaps a combination of genes, making it a bit more difficult to trace.

No, GtS, just because you can't find your own butt with both hands and an copy of Grey's Anatomy doesn't mean it isn't there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 03:22 PM

"..everybody can remember the first time that they had the opportunity to smoke, and the choice they made at that time to say yes or no."

I certainty can't. I can remember a time I didn't smoke, and a time I did smoke, and a time I didn't smoke any more. But I can't remember the first time I smoked - or the last time, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:32 PM

Well, I can. Rather vividly. 1948. I was in my senior year in high school. I was sitting at the counter in a restaurant a half-block from school, along with a school friend, Curt Grant. Curt smoked. He talked me into trying one.

It didn't taste very good. I coughed a lot. I turned pea-green. I felt a bit nauseated. I don't know why I stuck with it, but I did. A few months later, I was smoking like a chimney.

But then, old geezer that I am notwithstanding, I have a satisfyingly tenacious memory.

I started singing folk songs in 1952. Once I got to singing here and there, I kept asking myself, "Okay, you sing. Your voice is your instrument. If you played the clarinet, would it make any kind of sense to blow hot smoke through your clarinet thirty or forty times a day!?? It's flamin' idiotic!!"

On June 19th, 1978, my 47th birthday. A warm, sunny day, sitting on John Dwyer's deck in Marysville, Washington, overlooking Puget Sound, I smoked my last three cigarettes. And gave my cigarette lighter to someone else there who smoked.

I haven't smoked since.

It was definitely a matter of choice, first to start smoking, then to quit.

Don Firth

Now back to our regular broadcast.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:57 PM

Smoking is almost always curiosity and social pressure to start, but it is physically addictive. Thus, the desire to quit needs to be pretty strong. My parents smoked...my younger brother smoked.... I never did. There 'may' be some genetic factor involved in my having no desire to start, but... *shrug*

I doubt there is a gene that says: "roll up some plant material in a piece of paper and set fire to it."
We are, however, genetically programmed to have various degrees of sexual desires, or there wouldn't be these discussions... *wry smile*. The concern now is learning in what ways the programming might differ, due to hormonal variations or other conditions that would 'tend' someone to be gay.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:29 PM

"t has seemed to me for years that those who are repelled by homosexuality and/or were brought up in opposition to it..often in religious circumstances, will look for any justification for the claim that it is 'abnormal' or 'against nature' or 'perverted' or whatever phrase they prefer. In contrast, many of the researchers who are finding the evidence I refer to are NOT gay, and have only an interest in 'good science'." Bill D


I agree with you, Bill, but to take it further: It is not only those who are repelled by homosexuality and/or were brought up in opposition... often in religious circumstances' etc; sadly, it evidently also applies to those who are drawn to same sex sexuality and are torn between feeling that it is wrong, a sin, a direct slap at their parents and the church, and the acting out of the deepest compulsion of their being.

I say, "sadly" because I can't imagine much greater torture than a young person might feel in that case.

People who condemn homosexuals as having 'free choice' and making the wrong choice are lacking in logic. Why in the world would a person choose to be ostrcized, ridiculed, assaulted, shamed, and even killed if they had a choice?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:44 PM

It seems reasonable to speculate that most aspects of how we are have some kind of relation to our genetic make-up, but that's not the same as there being genes that determine what we do.

How a tree grows is affected by its genome, but also various other factors, such as the soil in which it grows and the way the wind blows and the rain falls.

I can't see that if there's an element of choice in how people behave sexually that is something to be uncomfortable about. In fact the idea that there isn't is a bit alarming. Even threatening, opening vistas of eugenic "cleansing".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:47 PM

Looks like this thread fell at the first fence!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:27 PM

There is evidence to support the theory that, no matter what physical equipment a fetus is endowed with (determined by XX or XY chromosomes), what determines its sexual orientation is the timing of an infusion of hormones. When and how much. Not unlike a recipe. Oftentimes how a recipe works out depends on when and/or how much of a particular ingredient is added.

This may have to do with the genetic make-up of the mother. And this mis-timing may not happen with every child she bears. Hence, with three sons and a daughter, say, two sons and the daughter are heterosexual and one son is same-sex oriented.

This could also account for identical twins (presumably genetically identical) when one is heterosexual and the other is homosexual. For some reason, one of the fetuses receives the "prescribed" dose of the necessary hormone, and the other does not.

So in examining homosexual males for a "gay gene," researchers may be looking in the wrong place.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:32 PM

Don:'No, GtS, just because you can't find your own butt with both hands and an copy of Grey's Anatomy doesn't mean it isn't there.'

Mr.Firth, I did not attack you in any way, nor made crude comments concerning you in any way. Matter of fact, you're the one who came out swinging at me, unprovoked. I think a gentleman, at your age, should know better. Perhaps showing a better example of decency, in a forum, or in any public arena, of exchanging ideas, might present yourself, as a little more convincing, that you might have something of value to add.
Nonetheless, Regards,..GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:05 PM

Don, By the way................(must have been from 'reading the whole Bible).......

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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:37 PM

Short memory there, GfS. You were hacking at me right from the start, and as a gentleman of my age, I've learn that it's best to step on snide remarks when they first start, otherwise they tend to escalate.

And I don't need any lessons from you in matters of decency. Again, physician, heal thyself!

I'm trying to stick to the subject. You're the one who thinks you can make debating points by try to admonish me. That's known as the fallacy of the "Appeal to Pity." Trying to discredit a person's argument by claiming that that person is being mean to you.

Don't keep attacking me if you don't want me to retaliate.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:43 PM

More snidities, there GfS. When I mentioned Grey's Anatomy, I was not referring to the television series. In fact, I didn't even think of the television series (I've never watched it). I was referring to the standard medical school textbook and a reference book that at least used to be in every doctor's office.

Perhaps if you studied a copy of the textbook, you might actually be able to locate your butt.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:51 PM

Don, I just scrolled down through this thread, and found no attacks from me to you. On the contrary, you started your antics, once again, (that is quite evident, as well). If you find, somewhere on this thread, that substantiates your accusation, cut and paste it. Prove me wrong..or shut up!!!

Other than that, let's stick to the topic, ok?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:23 PM

Sorry, forgot to 'sign in'

More snidities, there GfS. When I mentioned Grey's Anatomy, I was not referring to the television series. In fact, I didn't even think of the television series (I've never watched it). I was referring to the standard medical school textbook and a reference book that at least used to be in every doctor's office.

Perhaps if you studied a copy of the textbook, you might actually be able to locate your butt.

Don Firth


P.S.Did you mean?:

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   1.
      Gray's Anatomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
          * Origins|
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          * See also|
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      Henry Gray's Anatomy of the Human Body, commonly shortened to Gray's Anatomy, is an English-language human anatomy textbook widely regarded as a classic work on the subject.
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray's_Anatomy - 57k - Cached

Just clarifying, because 'Gr-E-y's Anatomy, IS the T.V. show.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:48 PM

Horrendous victory, there, GfS! Yes, I was referring to GRAY's Anatomy. So you caught me in a spelling error! Oh, HORROR!!

There will be champagne in the GfS house tonight!

It started, GfS, when you accused me of being bigoted toward Christians when I identified those who tried to have a Washington State law rescinded as an out-or-state Christian coalition. My identification of this group was accurate, and it had nothing to do with my being bigoted toward Christians. As I explained, I belong to a Christian church. A main-line denomination (Lutheran) church which, I might add, is quite liberal, and has, on occasion, performed marriages for same-sex couples.

Then, you started quoting totally irrelevant Bible verses at me, and it went fromt there.

Also, you have a bit of a history from the previous thread on California's Proposition 8.

Speaking of history, I note that, as close as I can tell from your posting history, you have never posted on any of the music threads above the line. This is a folk music forum. Do you sing? Do you play a musical instrument? What are you doing here, anyway?

Don Firth

P. S. My wife just called me to dinner. I won't be back this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:11 AM

"How a tree grows is affected by its genome, but also various other factors, such as the soil in which it grows and the way the wind blows and the rain falls."


McGrath, I hadn't read that metaphor before, least of all put in such sublime simple terms.

I think it deserves to be framed and hung in every family's home.



A quick aside on the subject of Addiction,

Recent research has shown a link between a persons propensity to be an addict and the dopamine levels in their brain.

Those whose brains do not produce normal levels of dopamine are significantly more likely to develop addictions.

Dopamine levels are predestined depending on what happens in the womb.

The child of someone who drinks, smokes or does drugs is much less likely to produce normal levels of dopamine and consequently they are more likely to develop addictions.

Current research into treatment for addicts is centreing on trying to synthesise dopamine as a chemiical "cure" or drugs that can help regulate dopamine levels.


As for why people get into the drugs in the first place,

most addicts suffer from addiction as one factor in a unique mixed package of various different problems.

Kids who suffer from personality disorders often develop addictions as part of their disorder.

Personality disorders are generally defined by a self centred mindset, an inability to take responsibility for oneself, a tendency to see the world in black and white absolute terms with no capacity to consider sades of grey, a tendency to self abuse and an inability to form nurturing relationships.

(While there are Gay people with personality disorders, homosexuality is not an example of one as the majority of Gay people are able to be considerate, take responsibility for themselves, respect themselves, form nurturing relationships and understand that not every question has a YES/NO answer.)

So for a child who has been born of alcoholic parents and perhaps abused or abandoned by them, becoming addicted to a substance is not necessarily a choice any more than it was a choice for me to resist becoming addicted to anything..

I am insticntively repelled at the idea of becoming dependant on a drug and my being would fight against my addiction if by some freakish chance I became addicted to something.

I am very grateful to my parents.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:09 PM

Nearly all paedophiles are male. Is it sexist to mention this? No, it's just a fact.

Does follow from this fact that nearly all men are paedophiles? Not at all. Nearly all males are not paedophiles.

Some Mudcatters, however, have difficulties if it is mentioned that members of a minority group are more likely than people not belonging to this group to commit a certain type of crime. That can happen if it is religion what defines the minority group or sexual leaning or whatever.

But in fact, the situation is quite the same as in the innocuous starting paragraphs of my post.

Men with homosexual leanings are more likely than men with heterosexual leanings to commit the crime of paedophilia. That is a simple fact that everyone can know who has read a bit on that field.

Does from that follow that most homosexuals (men) are paedophiles? Not at all. By far most of the homosexual men are not paedophiles.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:26 PM

"Men with homosexual leanings are more likely than men with heterosexual leanings to commit the crime of paedophilia. That is a simple fact that everyone can know who has read a bit on that field."

If it's a simple fact I'm sure you'll have no trouble providing a link to the research that proves your statement.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:47 PM

"Men with homosexual leanings are more likely than men with heterosexual leanings to commit the crime of paedophilia."
I'd like to see the research on that one too please.
On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of rapes and sexual abuses (on both adults and children) are committed by hetrosexual men - so where does that leave us?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:08 PM

Thank you Jim.

In answer to your question, I suspect sadly that it leaves us no further than before.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM

It's utterly irrelevant I know, but as a female child victim of 'heterosexual' paedophillia (is indeed there such a thing, when one is a child with no orientation of ones own, as the terminology itself utterly eradicates the victim?) I Love men, be they Straight, Gay or Bi.
Loadsa lovely men out there: one of them is my partner, many of them of whatever sexual orientation/persuasion are my friends and brothers. I also know very charming homosexual gentlemen, who have been very dear to me as uncles and employers. I'm sure many of them would have made exceptional fathers, who may have indeed protected me from the 'heterosexual' paedophiles, who repeatedly sexually assaulted me throughout my early Childhood.

Homosexual, heterosuxual, you're having a fucking laugh man, a child-fucker is a child-fucker. They each may have their personal kinks, but it's all the same to them: it's small, and it squeals when you do stuff to it..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:51 PM

I knew someone would bite.

E.g., Kurt Freund, et al., "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy 10 (1984)

Look, out of three victims of paedophilia, two are girls and one is a boy, roughly. Put that in proportion with the respective percentages of homosexual and heterosexual males then you should not be surprised about qwhat I have written.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:57 PM

Bill Watkins & Arnon Bentovim, "The Sexual Abuse of Male Children and Adolescents: A Review of Current Research," Journal of Child Psychiatry 33 (1992)

for the last statistic mentioned.

Robert L. Johnson, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality (September 1988) for the claim that boys' abuse may be underreported.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:55 PM

Wolfgang, Kurt Freund's research is not accepted by everyone as reliable. CLICKY #1

Also worth reading. CLICKY #2

What articles I was able to find by Watkins and Bentovim seemed to be dealing primarily with the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Church, and they seemed to be shot through with an attempt to convey the idea that what some rogue Catholic priests were up to with the altar-boys is common behavior in the secular community as well. A suspicious looking attempt to justify the behavior by claiming that "everybody does it." This sort of motivation tends to skew any attempt to provide "scientific evidence" for a particular viewpoint.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM

Wolfgang, your post shows that pedophiles tend to choose girls over boys, but that they aren't that discriminating.

It says nothing about Gay men.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:45 PM

As I pointed out before, NAMBLA is the only 'organization' I know of,by EITHER gender, that advocates having sex with children, consensual(?), that is statutory rape, or otherwise, and it is comprised pretty much of males(?). The name should tell you that itself. True..or not??

(Another obvious truth skirted around!)

Here, check it out, but for all those 'defenders', try not to get 'turned on'!
By the way, check out the 'goal' as stated by #2!! (sounds reminiscent of stuff on here!)

#1
Welcome to NAMBLA's Home Page
The North American Man/Boy Love Association.
www.nambla.org - Cached
#2
AN INTRODUCTION TO NAMBLA
NAMBLA's goal is to end the oppression of men and boys who have mutually ... NAMBLA is a political, civil rights, and educational organization. ...
www.nambla.org/welcome.htm - Cached
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:17 AM

The National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes?

NAMBLA is a very small organization that doesn't have a whole lot of traction. The attempt to equate NAMBLA with same-sex orientation in general is not only disingenuous, it's downright dishonest.

But then, I've had to learn not to be surprised at the lengths homophobes are willing to go to.

Don Firth

P. S. I am acquainted with a fair number of people who are same-sex oriented (after all, I live in Seattle's Capitol Hill District) and I had not heard of NAMBLA until I read this thread. As I say, small, no traction.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:47 AM

Saying that the only organization like NAMBLA exists among gay men doesn't prove or even indicate anything at all about gay men. It only says something about the men who belong to and agree with NAMBLA's agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:16 AM

So, I ask again...is it all right with you?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:39 AM

Again, I have no time to respond properly, but I would remind you all, that in Wolfgang you are taking issue with a real, live, certified, statistician...who is always very precise in what he says.

The problem seems to be, that sexual attacks on young boys are very much more common than shown by the collated figures, as they often go unreported.
It is only the most high profile ones, like the "gay activists", youth organisers, religious leaders, homosexual foster parents etc which come to light.

I have not invesigated the homosexual/ paedophile figures properly, but there are statistics on line which state that in percentage terms, there are a very much larger no of homosexual/paedophiles than heterosexual/paedophiles.
Why this is so, remains a subject for debate, but the figures remain incontrovertible,
As with the homosexual/aids figures, the percentage of homosexuals in the community....now reckoned to be 2-3%, has to be kept in mind when real nubers are being thrown around.

I have to be brief and I have cited this before, but a foster father who lived near me when I was child, abused only the boys whom he fostered..... the girls were never touched, so it is incorrect to say that paedophiles are a seperate species...there are homosexual paedophiles and heterosexual paedophiles only rarely will a paedophile abuse boys and girls.

My contention is that men who indulge in the homosexual practice, have a propensity towards paedophelia, the figures available
and my observations throughout my life....lead me to that contention

I do not believe that "every homosexual is a paedophile"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:40 AM

Is what all right with me?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:47 AM

Sure, Carol..or Don...or anyone..its not a 'trick question'

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Gust from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:55 AM

Don:'P. S. I am acquainted with a fair number of people who are same-sex oriented (after all, I live in Seattle's Capitol Hill District) and I had not heard of NAMBLA until I read this thread. As I say, small, no traction.'

Well, they've been interviewed on different news shows..they're not all that unknown...

P.s. Knock off the 'homophobes' stuff, too. Can't you carry on a conversation without resorting to name calling, and presumptive assumptions??

The question was, is NAMBLA alright with you?

Simple

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:57 AM

Just to clarify why I started this thread.

It is not because I hate homosexuals, but that I think the current promotion of homosexuality as being "just another lifestyle" is completely and dangerously wrong.
There are many negatives in the practice of male homosexuality and very few positives.
The health figures, life expectancy, promiscuity, paeodophilia psychiatric problems etc etc make this a behaviour which we should not be promoting in primary schools, in fostering, or marriage.

Ignoring the available statistics because they do not suit the discredited mantra of "Orwellian liberalism" proves that facsism is alive and well on the "liberal left"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:00 AM

....and of course , that I can't spell "fascism" :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:10 AM

Hi, Ake, way over there across the pond!...waves

I think their stump, by the question...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:13 AM

I can't find the question. Could you please post it again?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:15 AM

ooops.....I meant, "I think they're 'stumped', by the question"

probably making them think too hard

..lets see, how do we balance honesty, with a political agenda, when we have to think that hard???

Nonetheless, I'll wait for someone to answer...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:16 AM

The question was, is NAMBLA alright with you?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:17 AM

Of course it's not alright with me. What's your point?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:18 AM

As I said, it wasn't a 'trick question'

How come it isn't ok with you?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:22 AM

Because their whole purpose is to get the age of consent lowered for boys. I'm not in favor of lowering the age of consent for boys (or for girls, either).

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:23 AM

Ok, fair enough...you mentioned girls as well...what about an age of consent for girls?....How old is fair?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:27 AM

I need to think about it a bit before I answer that with conviction, but my inclination right now is to say 18.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:30 AM

Again, fair enough. Think it through...same with boys too....

(By the way, it was your earlier post, that caused me to ask the question, so..this is good)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:33 AM

I would point out that I don't think there should be any legal consequences for two people (either of the same sex or opposite sexes) who are both under the age of consent engaging in sexual activity together. Only when one of the parties is over the age of consent and the other one is not.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:34 AM

You still have not answered my question. It's not a trick question. Are you stumped?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:37 AM

ok, fair enough...I'm just talking to you...now you mentioned 18, and you mentioned 'legal consequences'. So, let me get your opinion on this,
Being as NAMBLA wants to lower the legal age, would it be ok then?..Why? or why not?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:38 AM

Refresh me..What was your question?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:39 AM

You still haven't answered my question. I answered yours. It's not a trick question. Are you stumped?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:39 AM

Crossposted.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:39 AM

My question is - what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:42 AM

So, let me get your opinion on this,
Being as NAMBLA wants to lower the legal age, would it be ok then?..Why? or why not?

I already answered these questions. Why are you asking them again?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:43 AM

I'm just getting an opinion from you. There was no point, as far as to clobber anyone with. As a woman reading this thread, i thought it would be good to get ..um..perhaps a different view point, other than the one posted, by the guys...fair enough?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:45 AM

So, let me get your opinion on this,
Being as NAMBLA wants to lower the legal age, would it be ok then?..Why? or why not?

I already answered these questions. Why are you asking them again?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:48 AM

Oh, I asked the question, again, because, you said in your answer, that 18 would be better, then you mentioned 'legal consequences', so I re-asked, to see if there would be a clarification, as to 'legal', as opposed to anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:54 AM

...and, ...to be fair..the question of a minor's civil rights, would be brought up. being as someone who belongs to NAMBLA, would of course, raise that issue,...So, with that in mind as well, I didn't know for sure if that would play into your answer...would that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:55 AM

I don't think two kids who have sex together should be penalized in any way.

I think that adults should not be allowed by law to have sex with kids. Not men with girls, and not men with boys, or women with boys or women with women, and not anyone with hermaphrodites. Exceptions could be made if they have parental consent to get married, but I don't have an opinion yet about the lowest age for that to be allowed. And as I said, I don't have a strong opinion about 18 being the age without parental consent. I would need to think about it a lot more before I could form a strong opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:58 AM

I have to say that the way you use commas makes it very difficult to understand your posts. A good rule of thumb for commas is "when in doubt, leave it out". Most of yours aren't necessary and they muddy your meaning and make it very difficult to discern.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:00 AM

Fair enough, then Carol. I appreciate your honesty. I've raise children, myself....so perhaps our thoughts on the matter may be enlightening for the other readers, who may not either have that experience to match up with their opinions.

(Sheeesh, I even have grand children)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:07 AM

Carol, the exchange was a pleasure! I'm going to knock off now. I'll check back in the morning. Give it some thought, if you want. I really don't bite...Unless riled(wink).

P.S. those aren't commas, but spaces, as in dialogue(script writing). I'll try to be more mindful of them......(smile)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:33 AM

The age of consent for boys was lowered to sixteen a few years ago in the UK, because it was argued that it ought to be the same for boys as it was for girls. The alternative way of achieving this, by raising the age for girls was dismissed as unrealistic.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 07:06 AM

"As I pointed out before, NAMBLA is the only 'organization' I know of,by EITHER gender, that advocates having sex with children."

I understand that in the past, the fringe Christian organisation "Children of God" (Now rebranded as "the Family International") advocated sex between adults and children. The group's publication and distribution of writings, photographs and videos advocating and documenting adult-child sexual contact and the sexualization of children led to numerous reports of child sexual abuse.

NAMBLA is an organisation with abhorrent aims that should be utterly condemned by all right thinking people, "liberal" or otherwise, straight or gay. However, they no more represent the overwhelming majority of gay men than the Children of God represented the overwhelming majority of Christians.

Ake: "I think the current promotion of homosexuality as being "just another lifestyle" is completely and dangerously wrong."

Since when was homosexuality a lifestyle?

I really struggle with this idea. I live in Manchester, which has a big and very visible gay and lesbian community. Gay friends or colleagues or acquaintances don't have a single lifestyle. They have as many different lifestyles as their straight counterparts, depending on all sorts of factors such as upbringing, politics, religious views, morals, preferences and so on. My gay neighbours, who are as good as married, hold down responsible jobs, go fell walking at any opportunity, love holding dinner parties (with gay and straight friends) and are decidely non-camp and non-scene, would be amused and horrified at your concerns about their health problems, poor life expectancy, promiscuity, paedophiliac proclivities and psychiatric problems. They certainly wouldn't recognise themselves from your description. Anecdotal? yes. Based on a real life example? Also yes.

And honing in on the "psychiatric problems" part your walk of shame, as a mental health practitioner, the vast majority of the people who my team sees identify as straight. There are also a minority of patients who have major problems arising from conflicts between their religious beliefs, family views and so on and their sexuality, and often go to great lengths to deny or repress their same-sex orientation. Is that the fault of a "lifestyle choice"?...

No doubt this will be taken as evidence of "Orwellian liberalism" rather than just a) a good old-fashioned dose of common sense or b) a slice of normal every day life.

I also think Ake, GfS et al should re-read CS's post of 06 Nov 09 02:47pm (which seems to have been largely ignored - too much uncomfortable truth, perhaps?) and reflect on the perspective she brings to the discussion: especially as she is talking about real life and not theory, ideology and so on. Child sexual abuse is a real issue affecting real children, not a tool be cynically used to promote an anti-gay agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:04 PM

Akenaton: It is not because I hate homosexuals, but that I think the current promotion of homosexuality as being "just another lifestyle" is completely and dangerously wrong.
There are many negatives in the practice of male homosexuality and very few positives.
The health figures, life expectancy, promiscuity, paeodophilia psychiatric problems etc etc make this a behaviour which we should not be promoting in primary schools, in fostering, or marriage.

Ignoring the available statistics because they do not suit the discredited mantra of "Orwellian liberalism" proves that facsism is alive and well on the "liberal left"

Or put another way: It is not because I hate the intolerant, but that I think the current promotion of intrusive interest in other peoples' sex lives as being "just another person's opinion" or "the public has a right to stick its nose in here" is completely and dangerously wrong. There are many negatives in the prurient lifestyle and very few positives. The maiming and death of homosexuals, double standard as to who gets to be promiscuous, civil rights abuse, and irrationality etc etc make this a behaviour which we should not be promoting in primary schools, in fostering, in our laws, or in marriage.

Ignoring the available medical and psychological research because they do not suit the discredited mantra of perverted busy-bodies proves that ignorance and bigotry are alive and well in Scotland.

Besides, the term "Orwellian liberalism" is itself a great example of Orwellian doublespeak . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

"the term "Orwellian liberalism" is itself a great example of Orwellian doublespeak . . ."

Not necessarily. There is a form of conventionally knee-jerk liberalism in vogue these days which is just as reprehensible and hypocritical as its diametrical opposite...conventionally knee-jerk conservatism.

They are both based on extreme self-righteousness and extreme intolerance of dissenting views. They both imagine themselves to be the fountainhead of all that is good and decent. They both react rather than think. They react to push button slogans and cliches rather than looking deeper into the facts of each unique situation that may arise. They long for something to be outraged about. They both imagine that which they oppose to be utterly evil and that which they espouse to be utterly good.

They are therefore the mirror image of one another.

It is that form of unthinking neo-liberalism that Akenaton objects to, and it's just as common and pernicious as the recent neocon movement that is seen on the right.

They both yearn to silence all dissent and to dominate people's thinking. They are both essentially totalitarian in their basic instincts. Those who wish to establish such a totalitarian rule, of course, are not bothered at all about the peril of doing so, because they are convinced that they are the "Good" people, therefore the rule they establish could only improve things for all of us... ;-) Ha. Ha.

That's Orwellian.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:00 PM

Exactly so, Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:12 PM

Ake, Wolfgang may be a certified statistician, but that does not make him immune from misinterpretation of statistics. Read the two articles I linked to.

GfS, I presume that the "is it all right with you?" question you are asking is, "Do you support NAMBLA's agenda?" No, I do not. But that has nothing to do with the same-sex/gay marriage/domestic partnership issue.

And yes, GfS, it IS a trick question in the sense that you are trying to lay a trap. "If NAMBLA is not all right with you, why is same-sex orientation? Hah! Gotcha!"

No. Once again I point out that same-sex orientation and pedophilia are two separate issues, despite your repeated attempts to equate them.

I wholeheartedly agree with Spleen Cringe when he says, "Child sexual abuse is a real issue affecting real children, not a tool be cynically used to promote an anti-gay agenda." And it is most obvious that the same two people on this thread—and on others—seem to be almost pathologically interested in the sexual practices of others and feel they have the right to interfere.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:17 PM

George Orwell never actually used the expression "doublespeak". And does "Orwellian liberalism" mean the kind of liberalism which Orwell disliked, or the kind that he believed in?

"Orwellian" as used there by Little Hawk is a bit like using the term "Gandhiism" as shorthand for British Imperialism.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:43 PM

I believe the word used by Orwell was "Newspeak" Mr McGrath and "Orwellian liberalism" is not liberalism at all, but fascism dressed as liberalism.

Just as Little Hawk has described it.

Getting back on topic, I think that the lovely and intelligent Carol could have a point in suggesting that all men may have a propensity to paedophelia.
If that is the case, why are there so many more homosexual than heterosexual paedophiles....in real percentage terms.

I think the answer may lie in the fact that heterosexual sex, with its emphasis on procreation and "the family" contains many natural and moral laws on our behaviour. Homosexuals on the other hand have thrown away the rule book, they do not feel constrained in their conduct as do the vast majority of heterosexuals with a "mate" or children....This could also explain the shocking homosexual promiscuity figures.

Going back "off topic" for a moment, it seems that the American "people" as opposed to American "liberals" may have called time on the promotion of homosexuality, when Maine became the 31st state to block homosexual marriage......The wheels have fallen off the bandwagonHERE

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:58 PM

2488.

Think you guys can clue it up soon?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:25 PM

Wolfgang, Kurt Freund's research is not accepted by everyone as reliable. CLICKY #1 (Don Firth)

Don, what please is the logical relation between this clicky and the sentence before it? Have your read what you have linked to? Freund is mentioned only once in the clicky in a very positive way.

By the way, that website is partisan.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:37 PM

Not men with girls, and not men with boys, or women with boys or women with women (Carol)

Do I spot here the hidden lesbophobia or just a minor slip?

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:51 PM

Technically speaking, McGrath, you're quite correct in what you say about the term "Orwellian"....but I should think that what I actually meant when I used the term "Orwellian" in the context of this discussion should be crystal clear. I meant a political movement that is fascist in its basic intentions, intent on accumulating power in the hands of a small and privileged elite, intent on reducing civil liberties, muzzling free speech, and establishing greater, more centralized control over the media and the society in general. Such systems are happy to achieve their elitist power objectives either through capitalist or socialist means....but in the case of the capitalist means, it is done through huge financial entities (banks and corporations), NOT small business.

One of the most effective means of securing the above is to divide and conquer the public by raising highly emotional and divisive issues such as: sexual roles, abortion, religious differences, partisan differences, gender-based conflict, racial differences, and cultural differences.

A divided and angry public will waste most of their energy fighting with each other over those emotional issues (most of which are incapable of resolution) while the Orwellian power structure extends its control over the entire public and cashes in on people's inability to distingush their real enemy...the richest people at the very top of the pyramid. The greater the public divisions, the more impetus is given to increasing police and military powers and reducing civil rights...and that moves the entire society in the direction the controllers desire.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:52 PM

200!!!

Where's my free ticket to Wrestlemania? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:58 PM

Do I spot here the hidden lesbophobia or just a minor slip?

It was a slip. It was late. I spotted it myself after it was too late to correct it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:00 PM

why are there so many more homosexual than heterosexual paedophiles....in real percentage terms (Ake)

I'm scratching my head over the "real percentage terms" because I don't know what you mean. It might be wrong.

My argument is:
(1) The percentage of pedophiles among homosexual men is higher than it is among heterosexual men.
(2) Since there are so many more heterosexual men than homosexual men the percentage of heterosexual men among pedophiles is higher than that of homosexual men.
(3) Argument (1) doesn't matter for political argumentation for the higher percentage is still very low in absolute terms.
(4) We do not treat males in general differently from females just because their crime rate (pedophilia) is higher than that of females, for their higher rate is thankfully at a very low level: That is, by far most males are not pedophiles
(5) For exactly the same reason, males homosexuals should not be treated differently from male heterosexuals and that is where I disagree with Ake, in particular in their right to adoption (see the old threads). A relatively higher risk at a very low level is no reason for differential treatment. If it was we could jail all males between 16 and 30, just as a general precaution.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:30 PM

I agree with most of what you write with regard to paedophilia Wolfgang, but when ALL the negative issues related to homosexuality and the under reporting of homosexual paedophile attacks are added in, surely it is unwise to promote the practice as "safe and normal"?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM

Little Hawk, can you provide some examples of the Orwellian liberal fascism you describe? Who engages in it? Which people are being swayed by it? Who are the few people who are gathering power into their own hands? What is their agenda? I'd like some names, some links to news stories, any evidence at all.

And, most importantly, please explain why it is appropriate for the concept to be introduced into this thread and why you are defending its use here. The lame excuse you've used before about making a general comment about our society won't cut it. If that's your only excuse for defending the use of language intended to demean and marginalize people who have not earned it, then you really should think a bit more before you start typing. And if you think you're not defending Akenaton's words, you have failed Conversational Comprehension 101.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 09:13 PM

John, I'm not particularly interested in the ongoing debate here between Akenaton and most of the rest of you about gays...pro, con or otherwise. And I'm not commenting on it, because it holds little interest for me. I just happened to open this thread after a very loooong time of ignoring it, and I noticed a couple of comments people made about something that does interest me....namely what Akenaton was referring to as "fascism dressed as liberalism", as he said in his last post. I find that subject very interesting...the way it manifests in society and in politics, and I thought I'd give my views on it. Period. That's all there is to it.

A spectacular example of it is how Tony Blair posed as a feelgood "liberal" politician....fooled the public totally...got himself elected...and then utterly betrayed his own constituency when he took the UK to war in Iraq. Shocking behaviour really, but Blair was in the position to do it because he acted "liberal", looked "liberal", and sounded "liberal". It's only after these bastards get into office that you discover what they're really up to.

Another fascinating example...only the other way around... is how Ronald Reagan managed to convince a whole nation back in the 80's that he was a classic died-in-the-wool "conservative" by looking "conservative", acting "conservative" and sounding "conservative"....but he then put into effect financial policies that were anything BUT conservative!!! He freed up credit in the most astoundingly irresponsible fashion ever seen up to that time and created a vast bubble of fiat money creation and vastly increased govdernment spending that led directly to the ruination of the North American economy (but not right away...it took awhile). In so doing, he violated every principle of what is supposed to be classic fiscal conservatism.

The so-called "conservatives" and the so-called "liberals" are not what they appear to be. You find that out after they are elected. Bush also greatly increaed government spending.

That's what I'm interested in talking about. I couldn't care less if you people fight over gay rights here and insult each other about it for the next 10 years. It's a distraction from far more vital matters.

Another example of Orwellian fascism as practiced in politics and the media nowadays is this: anyone who strongly criticizes Israeli policy in the Middle East and who is not themself Jewish gets accused openly or by implication for being supposedly "anti-Semitic". Even Jews who dare to criticize Israeli policy are often subjected to some really strange flak along the lines of...."Oh, they must be consumed with self-hatred...they must be Jews who are ashamed of their own Jewishness"...!!!

This is really strange, and it's way out of proportion. There shouldn't be any nation or group of people in this world who have carte blanche to do what the others cannot do (such as build at least 200 secret nukes and not be taken to task for it) (such as invade their neighbours whenever they feel like it and colonize the invaded lands with settlers from the invading population). No one else gets away with that, but Israel does. And if you criticize Israel for getting away with what no one else is allowed to...then "presto!" you're supposedly an anti-semite. NOT someone with a political complaint...no, an anti-semite. In other words, you supposedly hate Jews!

Unbelievable is what that is. It's a double standard to the point of madness. I call it fascism posing as something, all right. You decide what that something is or what you want to call it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:32 AM

Don: 'GfS, I presume that the "is it all right with you?" question you are asking is, "Do you support NAMBLA's agenda?" No, I do not. But that has nothing to do with the same-sex/gay marriage/domestic partnership issue.

And yes, GfS, it IS a trick question in the sense that you are trying to lay a trap. "If NAMBLA is not all right with you, why is same-sex orientation? Hah! Gotcha!"

Oh my!, Remember what I said about you and your presumtive assumptions?"

If you read the complete dialogue, between CarolC, and myself, That was never even mentioned..though if it had been my agenda to do it, I suppose there are a number of places, where that could have come up. However, that was not the reason for asking her the question, and as you can read, I think we had a very pleasant exchange..and void of any politics, as well! Not only are you wrong, you are starting to sound..umm...perhaps, maybe a little overstressed, or something. Relax, take it easy, and try not to get so upset, at everything that you suspect. Your presumption are starting to beat you up a little, and its coming out, in hostile ways. As Jesus said, in your Bible, 'Be anxious for nothing'(Philippians 4:6)<<<
Peace,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:39 AM

...and another P.S...Don, this thread is about "'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia," ..not same sex marriage. Once again, stick to the topic, or pull up the 'Prop 8' thread. If I wanted to yak about that subject, I would have. Get some rest.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:16 AM

LH - great post. Hear hear!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:37 AM

michaelr:"LH - great post. Hear hear!"

Make that a double!

I agree!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:17 AM

LH is right indeed; but the point doesn't only apply to Jews & Israel, tho. See my recent post re sub-Saharan Africa & who is responsible for its present state on the England My England thread above the line. & I got fed up with pointing out some incontrovertible truths about Islamofascist activism [7/7 &c] on the Stop The English Defence League thread when some booby who couldn't think of a better argument started throwing words like 'racist' about — all parallelling the situation re Israeli expansion & accusations of antisemitism so cogently rubricated by Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:25 AM

Well, racism aside, the use of the term "Islamofascist" shows a high degree of ignorance about what fascism actually is.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:51 AM

akenaton
There has been an ongoing investigation here in Ireland and elsewhere into the paedophelia practiced by members of the church on children placed in their care (on a massive scale and stretching back many decades) and the covering up of the rape and sexual and physical abuse that has been proven to have taken place, by leading members of the church.
Do you believe that all church officers (or all Catholics, or maybe all Christians, for that matter) are (potential or practicing) paedophiles and should be prohibited from fostering young children - if not, why not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:02 AM

'Well, racism aside, the use of the term "Islamofascist" shows a high degree of ignorance about what fascism actually is'

You may be right there, Carol; not perhaps a well-chosen word & not one I used in the original posts I was ref-ing. But, then, out of interest, what word would YOU use for that admittedly small but unhappily indubitably prominent Islamic movement responsible for 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Dutch cartoon debacle, &c? & do you, personally, regard it as 'racist' even to mention its existence? - in which case I think you will be aligning yourself with the 'antisemitism' criers denounced by Little Hawk, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:08 AM

Sorry - of course 'I meant DANISH cartoon'!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:31 AM

The problem with this "liberal fascist" concept is that it can be used as a knee jerk response to anyone who doesn't hold with a homophobic (in the case of this thread) agenda. It seems that if we are to take it seriously, we shouldn't express opinions on anything. It's hard not to cry "foul" when someone makes sweeping and hurtful generalisations about a whole sector of society. For me this isn't about liberalism or conservatism (I'm neither), it's about countering some of the hateful things being that are being said about all gay men (c/f Ake's list of their supposed flaws). In that sense my response to such comments is about loyalty to those of my friends who are gay. If that makes me a "liberal fascist" I'd sooner be called that than to crap on my friends, who hold the same abhorrence for paedophilia I do.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:19 AM

The trouble with liberal fascism is that it can be used as a way of brainwashing people and in deflecting them from examining all the evidence available on any given subject....not just homosexuality /paedophilia.

For several years anyone who criticised our "liberal" govt's immigration policy was branded a racist by so called liberals, even when the policy had been initiated to keep down labour rates and "make the UK competitive in a global economy"....code for cutting wages!

Today even govt ministers have been forced to admit their policies were simply wrong, the few small voices have become a mighty chorus
"liberalism" and political correctness are in their death throes
The much maligned American people have voted for common sense in 31 States, they will never enslave themselves to "liberal" fascism.....British take note!

Never ever let them take away your voice, no matter how small or lonely it may sound......only then will we have freedom.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:00 AM

"Never ever let them take away your voice, no matter how small or lonely it may sound......only then will we have freedom.....Ake"


Instead, if anyone disagrees with them, call them a liberal fascist and pigeon hole them.

This way you don't have to engage in any meaningful or useful way and it also means that you don't have to bother backing up your views, no matter how unsupported or untenable they might be.


Ake, when someone shows your arguments up to be nonsense that isn't taking your freedom of speech.

For you to spend hours every day writing whatever you like in a public forum and then to complain that somebody is somehow inhibiting your freedom of speech is farcical.

Furthermore, it is insulting to people who actually don't have freedom of speech.


Your problem is that your arguments are full of holes, incapable of evolving, and easy to tear down.

And you don't like it when people draw attention to just how much rubbish you spout.


Noone here has ever told you to be quiet or attempted to curtail your freedom of speech in any way.

All they have done is expose you for who you really are.


And calling people names and playing the victim are a pathetic attempt to paper over te cracks.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:02 AM

"Never ever let them take away your voice, no matter how small or lonely it may sound......only then will we have freedom.....Ake"


Instead, if anyone disagrees with you, call them a liberal fascist and pigeon hole them.

This way you don't have to engage in any meaningful or useful way and it also means that you don't have to bother backing up your views, no matter how unsupported or untenable they might be.


Ake, when someone shows your arguments up to be nonsense that isn't taking your freedom of speech.

For you to spend hours every day writing whatever you like in a public forum and then to complain that somebody is somehow inhibiting your freedom of speech is farcical.

Furthermore, it is insulting to people who actually don't have freedom of speech.


Your problem is that your arguments are full of holes, incapable of evolving, and easy to tear down.

And you don't like it when people draw attention to just how much rubbish you spout.


Noone here has ever told you to be quiet or attempted to curtail your freedom of speech in any way.

All they have done is expose you for who you really are.


And calling people names and playing the victim are a pathetic attempt to paper over te cracks.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:38 AM

The much maligned American people have voted for common sense in 31 States, they will never enslave themselves to "liberal" fascism.....British take note!

I now live in Maine and have seen at first hand the tactics being used to ensure that what you call common sense prevailed. A series of untruthful scaremongering adverts on TV, saying outright that this was a threat to marriage (why?), the sacking of a Catholic for standing up for her belief for equal rights for gays and the backing of quite a number of the religious organisations in the state.

To date no-one has been able to explain to me why same sex marriage is such a threat to the population as a whole. One advert even had the temerity to state that gays were to be 'tolerated'. Arrogant horseshit!

IMO this was passed because too many people put too much faith in what their religious leaders tell them, certainly in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM

You may be right there, Carol; not perhaps a well-chosen word & not one I used in the original posts I was ref-ing. But, then, out of interest, what word would YOU use for that admittedly small but unhappily indubitably prominent Islamic movement responsible for 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Dutch cartoon debacle, &c? & do you, personally, regard it as 'racist' even to mention its existence? - in which case I think you will be aligning yourself with the 'antisemitism' criers denounced by Little Hawk, don't you?

I call it "Islamism", or Islamic extremism, both of which are accepted terms that don't make the user look ignorant.

No, I don't regard the mere mention of it as racist. I do consider the generalization of it to all Muslims as racist, though, which is something I see a lot of people who use the term "Islamofascist" doing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:06 AM

People who use the term "liberal fascist" also show a high level of ignorance of what fascism is.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:16 AM

Little Hawk,
The examples you listed have nothing whatsoever to do with Orwell or fascism. I think these examples would make an interesting thread, one about politicians pretending to be something they are not and calling themselves liberal or conservative whey they are acting in ways that are the exact opposite. I agree with what you said about Reagan and Blair. Go start a thread on that topic and I'll cheerfully join in.

These examples, however, have nothing to do with the way in which Akenaton is using the words "liberal", "Orwellian", or "fascist". As I said, he is using this language to demean and marginalize people so that he can feel good about not backing up his assertions with facts or logic. It allows him to ignore anyone who doesn't agree with him.

I never asked you to weigh in on the gay question. I asked you why you thought it was appropriate to support what Akenaton was saying and the way he is saying it on the question of whether or people who disagree with him are Orwelliam liberal fascists, whatever that means.

If you have no interest in the topic at hand, PLEASE go away. If you don't understand that you, within the context of this conversation, supported Akenaton's contention that most of the rest of us are mindless sheep being lead around and told what to say by some nameless wolf, I repeat my suggestion that you have failed to show even the most basic comprehension of what's going on here and your place in it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:17 AM

'No, I don't regard the mere mention of it as racist. I do consider the generalization of it to all Muslims as racist, though, which is something I see a lot of people who use the term "Islamofascist" doing.'

Thank you, Carol. I think you will admit that is what I carefully avoided doing. Sorry again I slipped into a bit of inappropriate & misleading nomenclature: though I feel your 'Islamism' is perhaps a bit too general in its implications & sounds a bit like tarring all with same brush in its avoidance of specificity, would you not agree? The addition of 'extremism' seems to me the best of the suggestions.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:22 AM

Well, I know what Akenaton's referring to when he talks about stuff like that, John, and I think he has a valid concern. (I'm not referring to the gay issue or the paedophilia issue specifically...I'm referring to the issue of a certain form of popular so-called "liberalism" that is used to back various ongoing political iniatiatives and to silence opposition. What it is, it's the erection of various sacred cows by the media....sacred cows which are NOT to be challenged under any circumstances. And that's dangerous. Oh, and then there are various witches to burn too...they are the counterpoint to the sacred cows.)

As you say, we could start another thread about it. We probably have already had some threads about it. We could start a thread about what "fascism" really is too.

The thing is, though, I have a life to live here, and I don't want to spend an inordinate amount of it yakking endlessly with people on an internet forum. ;-) I can see myself lying on my deathbed thinking back regretfully to how I squandered all those precious hours arguing pointlessly with various other Net addicts instead of actually doing something real.

So, how about I just say "bye for now" and let someone else here start those various contentious threads?

See you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:36 AM

Thank you, Carol. I think you will admit that is what I carefully avoided doing.

I can't admit it because I have not read the posts of yours that you are referencing. You asked me what term would be appropriate and I told you. I was not commenting on any of your posts other than to point out the incorrect useage of the term "fascist".

Sorry again I slipped into a bit of inappropriate & misleading nomenclature: though I feel your 'Islamism' is perhaps a bit too general in its implications & sounds a bit like tarring all with same brush in its avoidance of specificity, would you not agree?

No, I would not agree with this. Islamism is a very specific term and only applies to those Muslims who are engaging in it.

The addition of 'extremism' seems to me the best of the suggestions.

Muslim or Islamic extremists would be good terms to use, but "Islamist extremists" is redundant.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:39 AM

We could start a thread about what "fascism" really is too

Whatever else it is, if it isn't a vehicle by which corporations control the government, it's not facism.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: meself
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

"Islamism" is not a term peculiar to CarolC; it is widely used to refer to the philosophy and beliefs that support "Islamic extremism". Whether it is the best term or not, it the "accepted term".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:10 PM

Jacqui...This is from the New York Times article which I linked to earlier, I think the writing may well be on the wall!

"They had far more money and volunteers, and geography was on their side, given that New England has been more accepting of same-sex marriage than any other region of the country. Yet gay rights supporters suffered a crushing loss when voters decided to repeal Maine's new law allowing gay men and lesbians to wed, setting back a movement that had made remarkable progress nationally this year.



"Maine, with its libertarian leanings, had seemed to offer an excellent chance of reversing the national trend of voters rejecting marriage equality at the ballot box. Instead, it became the 31st state to block same-sex marriage through a public referendum."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:12 PM

"...It is striking, then, how comparatively rarely children are mentioned as an argument in favor of gay marriage. The issue is framed as a debate over equality and justice, of personal freedom and the relation of church and state, not about what is good for kids.

That's partly because, until relatively recently, we didn't know much about the children of same-sex couples. The earliest studies, dating to the 1970s, were based on small samples and could include only families who stepped forward to be counted. But about 20 years ago, the Census Bureau added a category for unwed partners, which included many gay partners, providing more demographic data. Not every gay couple that is married, or aspiring to marry, has children, but an increasing number do: approximately 1 in 5 male same-sex couples and 1 in 3 female same-sex couples are raising children, up from 1 in 20 male couples and 1 in 5 female couples in 1990.

This growth, coupled with the passage of time, means there is a large cohort of children who are now old enough to yield solid data. And the portrait emerging tells us something about the effects of gay parenting. It also contains lessons for all parents.

"These children do just fine," says Abbie E. Goldberg, an assistant professor in the department of psychology at Clark University, who concedes there are some who will continue to believe that gay parents are a danger to their children, in spite of a growing web of psychological and sociological evidence to the contrary. Her new book, "Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children," is an analysis of more than 100 academic studies, most looking at groups of 30 to 150 subjects, and primarily on lesbian mothers, though of late there is a spike in research about gay fathers.

In most ways, the accumulated research shows, children of same-sex parents are not markedly different from those of heterosexual parents. They show no increased incidence of psychiatric disorders, are just as popular at school and have just as many friends. While girls raised by lesbian mothers seem slightly more likely to have more sexual partners, and boys slightly more likely to have fewer, than those raised by heterosexual mothers, neither sex is more likely to suffer from gender confusion nor to identify themselves as gay.

More enlightening than the similarities, however, are the differences, the most striking of which is that these children tend to be less conventional and more flexible when it comes to gender roles and assumptions than those raised in more traditional families.

There are data that show, for instance, that daughters of lesbian mothers are more likely to aspire to professions that are traditionally considered male, like doctors or lawyers — 52 percent in one study said that was their goal, compared with 21 percent of daughters of heterosexual mothers, who are still more likely to say they want to be nurses or teachers when they grow up. (The same study found that 95 percent of boys from both types of families choose the more masculine jobs.) Girls raised by lesbians are also more likely to engage in "roughhousing" and to play with "male-gendered-type toys" than girls raised by straight mothers. And adult children of gay parents appear more likely than the average adult to work in the fields of social justice and to have more gay friends in their social mix.

Heterosexual couples might want to pay attention to these results. While the gay-marriage debate is playing out on the public stage, a more private debate is taking place in kitchens and bedrooms over who does what in a heterosexual marriage (takes out the trash, spends more time with the kids, feels free to head out with their friends for a beer). The philosophical underpinnings of both conversations — gay marriage and equality in parenting — are similar, in that both focus on equality for adults (in the case of heterosexuals, mostly wives). But even if parents who seek parity do so for their own sanity and in pursuit of their own ideals, might it not also be better for their children?"...

(NYT today)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:39 PM

Further from same:

"Same-sex couples, it seems, are less likely to impose certain gender-based expectations on their children, says M. V. Lee Badgett, director of the Center for Public Policy and Administration at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and author of "When Gay People Get Married: What Happens When Societies Legalize Same-Sex Marriage." Studies of lesbian parents have found that they "are more feminist parents," she says, "more open to girls playing with trucks and boys playing with dolls," with fewer worries about conforming to perceived norms.

They are also, by definition, less likely to impose gender-based expectations on themselves. "Same-sex parents tend to be more equal in parenting," Goldberg says, while noting that no generalization can apply to all parents of any sexual orientation. On the whole, though, lesbian mothers (there's little data here on gay dads) tend not to divide chores and responsibilities according to gender-based roles, Goldberg says, "because you have taken gender out the equation. There's much more fluidity than in many heterosexual relationships."

So while we arguably spend too much time focusing on children, when it comes to the topic of nontraditional marriage, maybe we should start focusing on them more. One of the few parenting conversations that is not child-centric might be well served to become so. These are questions of rights and equality for adults, yes, but also questions of what is good for the kids."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:47 PM

Thank you, Carol. I think you will admit that is what I carefully avoided doing.

I can't admit it because I have not read the posts of yours that you are referencing.···

I meant above on this thread, Carol, where I was careful to describe this movement as "admittedly small but unhappily indubitably prominent" — an explicit statement that, tho highly visible, they are far from in any way typical, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:56 PM

"People who use the term 'liberal fascist' also show a high level of ignorance of what fascism is." Carol C.

They also show that they haven't a clue as to what liberalism is.

####

Ake, before you get too giggly about the Maine election and take this as the wave of the future, on the opposite side of the United States, in Washington State, the popular vote is going the other way.

The tally Thursday afternoon saw the vote to approve R-71 widening its lead 52.5 percent to 47.5 percent. That lead now appears insurmountable. The Secretary of State's Office estimates another 500,000 to 600,000 ballots statewide are still outstanding, with about half expected from King County, where the measure is being approved by slightly more than 2 to 1. "Voters across the state listened to the personal stories of lesbian and gay families and the challenges they faced and sent a strong message that we want to see all families treated equally under the law in our state," said Anne Levinson, chairwoman of Washington Families Standing Together, which worked for the measure's approval.

Protect Marriage Washington [the out-of-state Christian fundamentalist group I mention above—DF] is refusing to concede, saying it's still possible that enough votes will come in to make up their deficit. However, news outlets and the Associated Press are all calling the race over.

Bon appetit!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:09 PM

Thanks Amos and Don.

Ake - the vote was relatively close 53 to 47 and, for a good part of the night was evens and, for some time, the no vote was in the lead. The turnaround came when the votes from the outlying parts of the state came in - the more faith based communities well away from the cities.

These were the people who have little or no contact with gays and who tend to be much more straightlaced, moralistic and judgemental, who listened more to the fearmongering and downright lies that were being pedalled in the adverts. Unfortunately ignorance is not easily eradicated.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:10 PM

I meant above on this thread, Carol, where I was careful to describe this movement as "admittedly small but unhappily indubitably prominent" — an explicit statement that, tho highly visible, they are far from in any way typical, surely?

Yes, I would agree that in your post of 08 Nov 09 - 11:17 AM, you were careful to not generalize the term "Islamofacism" to include all Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: kendall
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM

53 to 47 is hardly a mandate. All it shows is that the control freaks, liars and fear mongers knew the right words to use that have nothing to do with marriage; "homosexual" is a hot button word that raises the ire of ignorant throwbacks to the dark ages.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how same sex marriages threaten "traditional" marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:26 PM

I have said many times on Mudcat that the American people can save humanity from itself. They have retained the bravery and naivety to challenge the political elite without becoming cowed.

We in the UK "know" our position is hopeless, we are in their hands, all politicians are ultimately the same. Conservative, Labour, even the hated BNP....all creatures of the system.
We have lost the concept of freedom, the concept that still runs strongly in American hearts. Our overarching cynicism is our Achilles Heel, we must follow America in speaking out against a political hierarchy which believes itself better than those who elect it.
The financial meltdown and the failure of the US govt's warmongering foreign policy, appears to have been a wake up call to "Joe Public" who is beginning to question the wisdom of the "liberalist", "rights for all at any cost" mentality.

During the Vietnam War, American sailors from the Holy Loch base near where I live were often jeered at by locals, who would shout to them....."Remember the Alamo"!......It looks to me that the long dormant American memory begins to stir!!..........Ake

Amos...I'm sorry that America has given you a thumbs down, perhaps we could exchange passports.....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:40 PM

I have said many times on Mudcat that the American people can save humanity from itself. They have retained the bravery and naivety to challenge the political elite without becoming cowed.

We don't need to become "cowed", because we are brainwashed. We still talk a lot about being a "freedom loving nation", but it's incredibly easy to fool us into thinking that the system we have now, which is far from being free (being highly controlled, as it is, by the corporatocracy) is the most free in the world, and that it's only the people who oppose the corporatocracy and its agendas who are trying to take away our freedoms. There is no separation between the policial elite in this country and the corporatocracy. They are the same people under different titles. As long as the corporatocracy together with the political elite are able to continue to brainwash us in this way, we will not even be able to save our own selves (just look how difficult it is for us to even get universal access to health care, something which all other developed nations already have), much less the rest of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:44 PM

And all of those people we see making the most noise about taking back our freedoms from the "system" in this country right now, are actually working on behalf of the corporatocracy. Take the teabagging movement, and it's backers. They are the true fascists. They are co-opting a populist movement for the purpose of protecting and furthering the interests of the corporatocracy, just as the fascists in Italy did in the last century. So don't get too optimistic about what we in the US are up to, just based on our rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM

My daughters Childminder looks after another little girl who is daughter to a gay couple.

One of them is a doctor, the other a lawyer.

They are committed to each other and to her and they create a warm loving context for their child to grow up in.

Their child is well looked after, loved and happy.


She'll probably grow up to be a lwayer or a doctor and seek out a nurturing and mutually enriching relationship when she is older as that is those are the things that define her home environment.

There are no judgemental bigots in her home poisoning her mind with hate.

Lucky girl.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:49 PM

What's George Orwell got to do with this?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM

Akenaton, even in the annals of this one thread, that's an extraordinary pile of bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

"The financial meltdown and the failure of the US govt's warmongering foreign policy, appears to have been a wake up call to 'Joe Public' who is beginning to question the wisdom of the 'liberalist', ''\rights for all at any cost' mentality." —Ake.

Ake, what planet are you on? The financial meltdown was caused primarily by the diluting and general gutting of a number of regulatory agencies such as the Securities and Exchange Commission, which is supposed to oversee and prevent the kind of wild-ass speculation and balloon-building that led to it. This kind of deregulation has been the goal of the conservatives since FDR, a liberal, first instituted them (lack of regulation also being the primary cause of the Depression of the 1930s).

The U. S. government's war mongering foreign policy, especially within the last couple of decades, has also been do to the policies of the conservatives. It was the Bush administration, led by the policies of the Neo-Conservatives, that precipitated the current wars in Iraq (which had nothing to do with the 9/11 terrorist attack) and Afghanistan, supposedly in answer to such attacks. Full-blown military campaigns against loosely-knit terrorist groups have always failed, being like trying to get rid of a plague of wasps by hitting their nest with a baseball bat.

One can go through point-by-point and show explicitly why the current state of the country—and much of the world—can be directly laid at the doorstep of the Republicans and their conservative policies, beginning with the Reagan administration and culminating with George W. Bush, the hand-puppet, and the cabal of puppet-masters who ran him.

Barack Obama inherited a real mess, and most of the criticism of him has to do with the fact that a couple of decades of racing headlong toward the Dark Ages takes a bit of time to reverse. He has a lot of messes, left by the previous administration, to clean up

Those who talk a lot about what a marvelous "City of the Hill" and glorious example the United States is, talk a very pretty sounding game, but the truth is that the U. S. has a lot of house cleaning to do, along with redirecting both our domestic policy and foreign policy before the U. S. can be any kind of example to the rest of the world.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM

Thank you for the critique Gervase, I shall accept it as a compliment from an expert.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:28 PM

Don...You have completely misunderstood my post.
I am not a Conservative...I am anti-politics

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

"I am anti-politics"

Then what have you been discussing?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:45 PM

Ake, what I am pointing out to you, since you DO make all kinds of comments about politics, both American and British, is that you need to learn what political terms mean, since you apparently can't tell the difference between liberals, conservatives, fascists, libertarians, theocrats, anarchists, and the whole catalog of political positions.

"Liberal fascist" is an oxymoron. Which means that it is self-contradictory.

My mother always told me not to use words whose meanings I didn't understand.

Don Firth

P. S. How can anyone be anti-politics? You may not like the political direction a country is heading, or you may think it's doing just fine. That's a political opinion. Being anti-political is like being anti-weather. Whether you know it or not, whether you like it or not, you are immersed in it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:48 PM

"Liberal fascist" is an oxymoron. Which means that it is self-contradictory."

Not necessarily.

The thing is "liberal" is a term than can be, and is, used to refer to just about any political position. For example the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is an ultranationalist organisation, which is about as far right as you can get. In Australia the Liberal Party are their Conservatives. In America "liberal" appears to be used by fairly extreme rightwingers (who are counted in the States as mainstream), to decribe political positions that elsewhere would be seen as moderate right-of-centre.

Going back to earlier historical meanings, it can be argued that, on a left to right political spectrum, the classic liberal position, on the one hand, and fascism, on the other, are more of less at the centre - the rather significant difference being that fascism is way up the top of the authoritarian spectrum and liberalism is down towards the bottom.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

Using your scale, McGrath, what would be to the right of fascism?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:17 PM

The most insideous symptom of a Fascist regime or ideology is its need to suppress dissent, freedom of speech and opposition to its goals.
This symptom is glaringly obvious in the current "liberalist" ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:26 PM

So whose freedom of speech or dissent is being suppressed here?

And what are the alleged goals of the "liberal Fascists" on here (besides promoting homosexuality)?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM

Kevin, I understand all that.

I am using "Liberal" in the classical sense. Most thoughtful American liberals hew pretty closely to that definition. Although, within recent years, because many American politicians who style themselves as "liberals" could be more properly referred to as "centrist," so those who correctly regard themselves as classical liberals tend to refer to themselves as "Progressives."

The essential tenets of classical liberalism are fairly succinctly spelled out in the early paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence, and further delineated in the Bill of Rights (first ten amendments to the Consitution).

Dennis Kucinich is a classical Liberal. But most Americans think of him as a Progressive.

I am not talking about what might be called "relative liberalism," where a conservative may be slightly more in favor of certain classical Liberal ideas than most of his conservative colleagues. In the relativistic context, if one were given to irony, one could refer to the storm trooper who, out of a rare spasm of humanity, allows someone to escape rather than hauling them off to the concentration camp as a "liberal fascist."

But I don't think that's what Ake is talking about. He's trying to say that liberals ARE fascists.

In the same way he's trying to claim that all homosexuals are pedophiles.

Talk about Orwellian double-speak!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:35 PM

The most insideous symptom of a Fascist regime or ideology is its need to suppress dissent, freedom of speech and opposition to its goals.
This symptom is glaringly obvious in the current "liberalist" ideology.

In the absence of liberalism being a vehicle by which corporations control the government, it's not facism. So in what ways is liberalism a vehicle by which corporations control the government?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:52 PM

Carol...It's unfair to try to engage me in a heated argument...it would be just like shooting myself in the foot!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:56 PM

She didn't - she very accurately distilled your point and asked you to explain how it works.

I know you are ignoring me - I'm not expecting an answer.

I'm just enjoying helping you to make a public ass of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:56 PM

How would it be a heated argument for you to answer my question? I feel pretty un-heated, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:01 PM

Further more, how does identifying Homosexuals as likely paedophiles help us to stop this liberal/corporate/fascist state from trampling all over our freedom of speech in the horrendous way demonstrated on this thread ...

... allegedly.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: sing4peace
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:02 PM

I feel a need to point out that while everybody has been talking about fascism and liberalism and chasing red herrings all around the place, we have completely ignored a very personal testimony offered by fellow Mudcatter - Crow Sister. She took the risk of sharing something personal and very painful in hopes of contributing something besides rhetoric to this conversation.

Thank you Crow Sister for that piece of courage. Your testimony here got lost just as the stories of the other victims who are too often powerless and without a voice.

I heard you.

Thank you.

Solidarity from a sister who has been there too -
Joyce

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:03 PM

According to Benito Mussolini (and he ought to know), the term "corporatism" is preferable to "fascism" because in the corporate/fascist state as he envisioned it, the government and the corporations were completely integrated. Hence the symbol of the "fasces" a bundle of sticks, symbolizing the corporations, tied around a battle axe, symbolizing the power of the State.

It is the liberals and progressives who are trying to keep the United States from becoming a fascist state.   It is the corporations that are trying to control the government. The current battle over health care, with the insurance companies trying to dictate the terms, is a good illustration of the struggle.

Ake's grasp of the facts are tenuous at the best.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:05 PM

Pardon me.

"Ake's grasp of the facts IS tenuous at the best."

Least Ake gleefully correct my grammar and try to claim that he's answered all questions.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:08 PM

Right, Joyce. Let's get back to the subject of this thread.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:12 PM

"Thank you Crow Sister for that piece of courage."

And from me too.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:44 PM

"I think the answer may lie in the fact that heterosexual sex, with its emphasis on procreation and "the family" contains many natural and moral laws on our behaviour."

You know to test this asssertion I think you should do three things.

First - Go to a nightclub and work out the percentage of boys on the pull who are looking for a wife with whom to raise a family and compare that to the numbers loking for a one night stand.

Second - in the morning drop by the family planning centre to count the numbers of girls picking up the morning after pill - and find out what percentage are doing it for the first time ...

Third - go down to the abortion clinic and find out how many young girls there are down there having their little inconvenience removed - and again find out how many are doing it for the first time.


Whilst at the family planning centre or the abortion clinic, see if you can see any evidence whatsoever of the "fathers" of the unwanted embryos being there to offer assistance or indeed trying to persuade their sexual partners to keep the children.

I suggest you'd have better luck finding them the next might looking for another girl in another bar.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:34 PM

Are you-all ignoring the scientific evidence and conclusions recited in that NYT piece which argues that there is, in some ways, a higher quality of child-raising to be found in same-sex couples? Doesn't that kind of kick all this bullshit in the brainpan? Wake up, Murika!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:21 PM

Maybe because the NYT is as reliable as a cardboard rubber!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 12:27 AM

For your consideration:Homosexuality and Pedophilia: The False Link

From the article:

Rarely does a pedophile experience sexual desire for adults of either gender. They usually don't identify as homosexual-the majority identify as heterosexual, even those who abuse children of the same gender They are sexually aroused by youth, not by gender. In contrast, child molesters often exert power and control over children in an effort to dominate them. They do experience sexual desire for adults, but molest children episodically, for reasons apart from sexual desire, much as rapists enjoy power, violence and controlling their humiliated victims. Indeed, research supports that a child molester isn't any more likely to be homosexual than heterosexual.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:11 AM

"the symbol of the "fasces" a bundle of sticks, symbolizing the corporations, tied around a battle axe, symbolizing the power of the State."

In interests of accuracy, not a 'battle axe', but an executioner's axe: the fasces were originally carried before the Roman consul as a symbol of his power to punish [by flogging with the rods], or even to behead, non-conforming citizens.   I think the point is worth making to emphasise that the essence of fascism is to enforce conformity to the state's requirements by any oppressive means available; rather than simply to spread the ideology by warfare, as taking the axe for a battleaxe presumably implies. The very term "fascism" ∴ means absolute power of the state to prevent dissent by means of institutionalised violence against the non-conforming individual.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:16 AM

Ted, This is your link...Did you actually think that a 'Gay' blog link was going to shed light on this subject objectively or accurately?? Shit, send it to NAMBLA(North American MAN/BOY Love Association).

Blogs
Gay's Anatomy
An insider's look at gay culture and identity.
by Joe Kort

It would be really something to watch their re-action!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:26 AM

MtheGM: "the symbol of the "fasces" a bundle of sticks, symbolizing the corporations, tied around a battle axe, symbolizing the power of the State."

(Not sure they symbolize 'the corporations' per se)

Oh?..You mean those symbols that flank the podium in Congress???...and on our currency.

Some people never knew that, or what they were.

MtheGM: "The very term "fascism" ∴ means absolute power of the state to prevent dissent by means of institutionalized violence against the non-conforming individual.?"

You mean 'Democracy' is an illusion??..as described by Little Hawk, in an earlier post, and several of my posts during that past 'election'???

Wow! What a news flash! But, nonetheless, you are right!!..and there are a lot of slow learners out there in Kumbayah-Land!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:29 AM

GfS - the first part of my last post that you quote was actually my quoting of a *previous* post to draw attention to its inaccuracy — I was pointing out that it was not a battleaxe but a headsman's axe.

As shown on your currency &c, they are just a symbol of the power of the state, as used by the Romans; but in adapting the name for the movement called 'fascism', the 'fasces' did, as I pointed out, come to symbolise the power of the state to suppress dissent by oppressive means.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:10 AM

And presumably they aren't "tied" to a "battleaxe".

I'd imagine that that was a central part of the fascist metaphor.


Ake seems to be implying that the new symbol is one of a load of Fasces tied around a homosexual liberal.

... hang on - I might fascinate ... er ... disgust him with that image

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:35 AM

Ok, ..thanks for the clarification

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 12:55 PM

Speaking of clarity--the article from the Times cites several scientific journals, not just a lot of opinion as seems to be the case here, GFS. WHich is then the more reliable?



A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:38 PM

Thanks for the clarification, MtheGM. I was unaware that it was a headsman's axe, and assumed from it's appearance that it was a battle axe (the two look pretty similar in most respects). The headsman's axe makes for a more consistent symbol, actually.

As to: "(Not sure they [the sticks] symbolize 'the corporations' per se)," GfS, what I cited came from a direct quote by Benito Mussolini. And as I said, if he doesn't know, then who does?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:32 PM

There seem to be two different discussions diverging here, one about political labels and ideologies, and one about issues to do with paedeophilia and about homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:44 PM

One thing that really puzzles me - why does the sexuality of another person bother some people so much? What effect do they think that it will have on them, that they have to make such a fuss about the fact that two people of the same sex have strong physical feelings for each other?

Can anyone answer that?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:50 PM

"Can anyone answer that?"
Probably insecurity in their own.
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:35 PM

I think it largely a matter of projection. Of what, varies from one person to another. Abuse, regret, who knows what. But the spurious accusations are surely signs of some kind of a confession. IMHO.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:14 PM

McGrath: 'There seem to be two different discussions diverging here, one about political labels and ideologies, and one about issues to do with paedeophilia and about homosexuality.'

Tho 'political', in reference to homosexuality issues were raise by Don, from which I have repeatedly posted that the topic of paedeophilia should be stuck to.

As far as the Fasces, I believe that was another issue(read: topic), reintroduced by Don. It seems that he has issues, yet to resolve, on this matter, which I also suggested to him, that if he wants to broach that subject, that he should do so on another(Prop 8) thread.

I agree that the original topic should be the one discussed, however, being as the name of this thread is, "RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,"

Paedophilia is paedophilia. In this particular case, the crime was done by a homosexual 'activist'. It seems silly and ridiculous to try to justify homosexuality, and introduce political views of that subject, and now have a 'tug of war' trying to separate those two facts, as if to say, one is totally exclusive of the other! Of course, not all homosexuals are paedophiles, and to argue otherwise, is also silly, and ridiculous. That being said, 'Wolfgang' introduced some stats, that show that the percentages of paedophilia, was higher among homosexuals, than those of non-homosexuals. Does anyone remember, what I posted in the 'Prop 8' thread, that the 'tip off' to counselors, to probe into the sexual preference of a patient, was 'emotional immaturity'??

Whether anyone may or may not agree(ignorantly, as well) as to whether or not, that suits their political 'views', is completely 1rrelevant to the truth. Matter of fact, the more one wants to argue that fact, the deeper they demonstrate their boneheaded stubbornness, as to accepting a simple truth. Another simple truth is paedophiles, of either sex, more often choose those to whom are less 'challenge' to them...easier prey, than dealing with an adult, to whom they, the paedophile, would have had to develop a maturity, to deal with, on a mature level. Note: the recent rash of teacher/student incidents, or clergy/child, adult/child victims, to name a few. They need the 'advantage', over their prey/victims.

The fact that I posted that earlier, and now this incident, should be indicative, that my earlier post, was not random, but part of an ongoing pattern, which is well known in the counseling world! Yet still, no matter all the proof in the world, there still are those who argue their pro homosexual views, as if it it is relevant, in this case!! NOTE: IN THIS CASE...get it?..got it?...good!..GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:34 PM

"It seems silly and ridiculous to try to justify homosexuality, and introduce political views of that subject"

No-one has - they have responded to ake's original comments on the subject of "promoters of homosexuality" and his impliacation, later literally confirmed, that homosexuals have a natural propensity to paedophilia that heterosexuals don't have.

Finally, Wolfgangs statistics turned out not to show that gay men are more likely to be paedophiles, but that paedophiles are twice as likely to choose girl victims over boys.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:41 PM

GfS, the civil rights of a minority group IS a political issue, so it's relevant to this discussion. HOWEVER—it was Akenaton's persistent use of the expression "liberal fascist" that actually focused the matter on the use of political terminology.

It was Akenaton who diverted the thread, not me.

But I know why GfS is particularly fond of getting on my case. From a bit of information he posted on the Prop. 8 thread, he knows I have his number—I know why this matter, especially the question of choice versus heredity, is so scary for him.

If anyone has unresolved issues around here, it's GfS. And that explains a lot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:56 PM

Don, permit me to extend your sentence.

"it was Akenaton's persistent use of the expression "liberal fascist"" to draw attention away from the argument which he started but is unable to actually engage in "that actually focussed the matter on the use of political terminology."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM

Don, from another thread I think that GtS is female. More's the pity.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:06 PM

"Don, from another thread I think that GtS is female. More's the pity."

Oh Ebbie, Need anyone say more...Don "has my number"...(rolls eyes)..
Actually, I have his..but I'm still being polite!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:10 PM

Not a chance, GfS. You see, on the terms you're trying to conjure up, I have no number to get.

Polite!?? Sheesh!!

If you have something to say, spit it out!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:53 PM

Don;

Don't let yourself be drawn, man. This is one of those exchanges that pretends to be a conversation but isn't, if you know what I mean.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:17 PM

Gotcha, Amos.

He/she (whatever) bitches about me taking the thread off-subject, and that's exactly what he/she keeps doing.

With both GfS and Ake, they'll do anything to muddy the waters and try to divert attention from the real point, which is the civil rights issue.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:33 PM

Don F, I understand and share your desire to confront people who are sniping at you, and to stand up to people who would deny civil rights to others. However, a quote I sort of remember from some science fiction book might be appropriate here: "If you listen to the barking of dogs you will go deaf and learn nothing".

Face it, GfS is consistently illogical and usually incomprehensible. Just be glad we don't have to go through life with such poor thinking and communication skills; he/she can't be able to form much of a relationship with anyone. Akenaton can communicate better, but he is lost in his bigotry, and has had all his statements on the this subject proved wrong many, many times in many, many ways. He, for whatever reason, is unable to admit it or to apply any real reasoning to this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:56 AM

Gotcha, Amos.

He/she (whatever) bitches about me taking the thread off-subject, and that's exactly what he/she keeps doing.

With both GfS and Ake, they'll do anything to muddy the waters and try to divert attention from the real point, which is the civil rights issue.

Don Firth

Paedophilia, the topic of this thread, .....is a civil rights issue???????????????

That's the real point???????????

I'm diverting attention????????????

Ok, Don, anything you say!!!!

P.S. Have you been drinking?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:07 AM

JohnP: "Face it, GfS is consistently illogical and usually incomprehensible."

May I suggest completing the third grade, before making such silly assertions??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:26 AM

"I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses." Dame Campbell.

My question goes un answered, Why do the homophobes care? As Jacqui asked, what makes other peoples life choices anyone elses business?

Where is the threat? what is the source of their fear? Someone suggested that they are not sure of their own sexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:57 AM

Reports on BBC news yesterday:-

"CHILDLINE", the charity which supports abused children in a confidential telephone setup somewhat akin to the "SAMARITANS" organisation, has recorded a huge increase in the number of boys coming forward to report sexual abuse by adults.

Guess what?.....Most of this increase involves FEMALE abusers!

Check it out! Reports of abuse of boys by males (homosexual or heterosexual) have shown NO equivalent increase.

Two facts emerge from this:-

1. There are many more heterosexual female paedophiles than has been previously apparent.

2. Paedophilia is about AGE, not sexual orientation.

Somebody needs to retrench, and reconsider his hard wired need for gays to be criminalised, given that gay paedophiles are a tiny minority of the gay population, just as hetero paedophiles are a tiny minority of the hetero population.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:13 AM

For fuck sake Amos! is that the best you can do?
Sanity says he/she has grandchildren and I have four grown sons.

and why am I being referred to by some here as the OP.
Surely everyone here knows who I am by now.....even if half of you can't understand what I mean, or what I say

The important thing is that the tide of public opinion seems to be ebbing away from the promotion of homosexuality in schools, fostering and the institution of marriage.
That must be a good thing, for all the reasons Sanity and myself have presented in the various threads on this subject
(Kendall just go back and read the threads if you want to know why we care)
and finally there is nothing on any of the threads to suggest that either of us "hate homosexuals"

Personally, I am against the PROMOTION of homosexuality to our children either in primary school, in foster homes or within marriage.
People who wish to practice homosexuality should be free to do so, but the serious problems which come with homosexual practice...for society and for themselves, should not be airbrushed out by a bunch of wooly headed "liberals",just because it is deemed politically incorrect to speak the truth and examine the statistics....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:18 AM

I'm so sorry Amos my old friend...My first sentence referred to Kendall.......I should have known you would never use that old chestnut.
Sincere apologies .A.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:33 AM

The increase is in children reporting abuse by females to Childline.
NSPCC research indicates that only 1 in 20 abusers are female.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:52 AM

""NSPCC research indicates that only 1 in 20 abusers are female.""

Out of date research!

CHILDLINE gets its figures straight from the abused themselves, and the latest info is just one DAY old.

The figure now is many times larger (approaching 20%....ONE IN FIVE)

Check it out on the BBC website.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:07 AM

Here is the original press release.
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/whatwedo/mediacentre/pressreleases/9_november_more_children_telling_childline_wda69526.html

It explains some of the complexities.
It is careful to include the previous NSPCC findings.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:36 AM

First, the original assertion was that there was a link, presumably causative, between pedophilia and homosexuality. Second, the original assertion included the notion that homosexuality was being promoted, particularly in schools and on this forum.

The facts are that there is no evidence of any causative link between homosexuality and paedophilia, and to the contrary, homosexual parents are often found to be better parents than their heterosexual colleagues.

The facts are that in the main there is NO promotion of homosexuality, but there IS a promotion of a doctrine of tolerance and a respect for individual nature. There is a strong campaign to rid any public discussion or policy on the subject of the mindless associations and hatreds which are the earmarks of irrational thought based on generalizations without data, blind fear-mongering and hatred.

The conflation of the two subjects was started in the original post by choosing one aberrated individual and using him (because he was a gay activist as well as a pedophile) as a touchstone for linking the two conditions out of all proportion to reality.

THese are the facts, your honor.

This was cheap and poor rhetoric aimed at reducing rather than increasing understanding. That is my opinion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM

"The facts are that in the main there is NO promotion of homosexuality, but there IS a promotion of a doctrine of tolerance and a respect for individual nature."

Ah, but Amos, that is the part they don't understand.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

"The important thing is that the tide of public opinion seems to be ebbing away from the promotion of homosexuality in schools,"
"there is NO promotion of homosexuality,"
Spot on - though there is plenty of effort being put into a leap back to the dark ages of intolerance - and all the misery it brings, as evidenced here, quite often by so-called Christians (no answer yet to my " intereating point" akenaton?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:56 PM

300!!!

Thank you, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:53 PM

You want facts? I give you facts! Homosexuality is not a choice! You may as well be against talking against people with blue eyes. Can you imagine that? Someone says,
Oh it's ok to have blue eyes as long as you don't look at anything with them!

Let's come out of the dark ages. What is, is. Adjust!

How many heterosexual people are going to admit that they married for sex? People marry for LOVE, and gender has nothing to do with it.

Control freaks piss me off.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:16 PM

DonT: "1. There are many more heterosexual female paedophiles than has been previously apparent.

2. Paedophilia is about AGE, not sexual orientation."

Don, you are correct!
I pointed that out, in my earlier post...and it is about age!

If any of the biased critics, noted, that in my post, I closed, with capital letters, that we are talking about 'paedophilia, IN THIS CASE'!!

Go back and read it!!!!

It seems the promoters and defenders of homosexuality, seem to only read and comprehend what they want to see, and ignore the rest!..and disregard any other relevant input. This is only 'willful ignorance' and the root word of 'ignorance' is 'IGNORE'!!!!!

now watch, some clown will dispute that too!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: gnu
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM

I shied away from even reading this thread. Glad I am bored and decided to take a peak.

Kendall. Me too. What a bunch of freaking crap!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:05 PM

"Paedophilia, the topic of this thread, .....is a civil rights issue???????????????"


The topic of this thread is dictated by the Original Poster.

He begins by referring to the case of a convicted paedophile who is allegedly Gay and representative of the Gay community as a whole.

He implies in his original post, and in later posts spells out literally, that in his view Homosexuals are sexual and social deviants who cannot be trusted to care for children as, being deviants, they have a natural propensity for paedophilia.


Thus he seeks to misinform and slander Gay people.

This is a civil rights iissue as Gay people are a minority who have been on the receiving end of violent suppression for centuries.

As for the roots of "Ignorant"

[Middle English ignoraunt, from Old French ignorant, from Latin ignrns, ignrant-, present participle of ignrre, to be ignorant, not to know; see gn- in Indo-European roots.]


Another similar word is "ignoramus".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:06 PM

Kendall...The figures suggest the most male homosexuals want nothing to do with marriage, the take up rate being very small in real terms.
The divorce/separation rate is also very high, suggesting than monogamy does not have any lasting appeal to the homosexual community.
Curiously, the figures are completely different for lesbians who appear to be on a par with heterosexual married couples.

The attempt to paint women as child abusers is disgraceful, the incidence of this is so small, that it is hardly measurable.
Most female abusers, like Hindley and the care worker last month appear to have been influenced by men

Paedophilia is to all intents a male crime.

Jim.. it is indeed an interesting point.

The last I read on this matter was that large numbers of homosexuals had always been attracted to the priesthood by the celibacy rule, which gave the opportunity to hide their sexual preference.
Many youth leaders have turned out to be secret child abusers as this is was always an easy way to access children.
Most of the abused were boys.....I have never heard of sexual abuse by a Guide leader, or any other adult woman in charge of a girls organisation.

I don't think you can make a case for Christianity being a cause of paedophilia Jim, but I would be interested to listen to your attempt...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:14 PM

Kendall and gnu...most heterosexual people marry to procreate!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:16 PM

GfS: If any of the biased critics, noted, that in my post, I closed, with capital letters, that we are talking about 'paedophilia, IN THIS CASE'!!

GfS:, earlier: you know, those same intolerant, 'homophobic' parents that don't want their 6 and 7 year old children to be 'taught'(read: indoctrinated), by some homosexual activist 'teacher', who is just there laundering his or her, or 'its' agenda!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:22 PM

As far as the information about pedophilia and homosexuality promulgated on this thread by Ake and GfS, I've heard more reliable information from the Fox News Service. And the intellectual level doesn't quite measure up to the average "Ren and Stimpy" cartoon (at least they're funny!).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:31 PM

Well I agree Don, arguing the toss with us hasn't done your persuasive powers much good, given the results of the homosexual marriage polls to date :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:36 PM

"Most of the abused were boys.....I have never heard of sexual abuse by a Guide leader, or any other adult woman in charge of a girls organisation."

do nurseries count? ... i suspect not ...


"The last I read on this matter was that large numbers of homosexuals had always been attracted to the priesthood by the celibacy rule, which gave the opportunity to hide their sexual preference."


Was this in a book? a newspaper? or a mystery secret book in Ake's archives of received wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:49 PM

Where are you getting your figures, Ake? After the same-sex marriage act passed in California (prior to the fundamentalist Christian carpetbaggers putting up Proposition 8), some 18,000 same-sex couples hauled off and got married almost immediately.

Within my fairly immediate circle of friends and acquaintances (including within the congregation of the church my wife and I attend), I know some six same-sex couples who consider themselves married (some married in a church ceremony) whether the law recognized it or not. Several of these folks happen to be attorneys.

Besides, numbers are not that important in a matter of civil rights. If one person is denied his or her civil rights, that's one too many.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: gnu
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:14 PM

Kendall and gnu...most heterosexual people marry to procreate!
******************************************************************

That is my point. That post is nothing more than a troll attempting to bate a response.

I wish a clone would merge this with the other troll thread that I "referenced" below.

That way, there would be less piles of shit cluttering up the screen.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:10 PM

As you may not know, the homosexual community has been pushing 'teaching' as young as 1st graders, and 'educating' them about homosexuality....Pardon me????? I don't even want 1st graders being 'taught' about heterosexual activities, unless it is with consent from the parents!!! Moreover, don't you think it is the parents responsibility to teach, or at least have a say, in when and where their children are taught about sex?????....and by whom??...if its not themselves???!!!

Let's not assume for a minute, that the public school system, can adequately handle that subject, especially any better than they can teach reading and writing and arithmetic!!! They can't even teach the basics with much success. You don't believe me?? Check out the scholastic averages, and how we as a nation have fallen, in test scores, and drop out rates...not to mention how charter schools has flourished, due to the inadequacies of the public 'school' system!!!!

That, my dear contentious, Mudcatter, is public record.,...not discrimination!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:24 PM

Public record?

What's your source for this information, GfS? Supply a link.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:53 PM

""Curiously, the figures are completely different for lesbians who appear to be on a par with heterosexual married couples."

On a par with heterosexual married couples, 50% of whom, world wide, end up in the divorce courts or separated.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:58 PM

. . . the homosexual community has been pushing 'teaching' as young as 1st graders, and 'educating' them about homosexuality . . . 1st graders being 'taught' about heterosexual activities

Did you notice the lack of logic and semantic honesty in the way you skipped from "teaching about homosexuality" to "teaching about homosexual activities"?

Please prove to me that anyone is suggesting that 1st graders be taught about anal sex.

Are you sure teachers aren't being encouraged to teach about civility, civil rights, and tolerance? Do you have a problem with that?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 08:16 PM

If it's a matter of "public record," then I should be easy for your to cite your source for that, GfS.

A link to those "public records," please.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:39 PM

We should take a close look at the obvious relationship between living in Scotland and being a pervert. We have the Scotsman that this thread is ostensibly about raping small children, and we have the Scotsman who started this thread proving himself to be so perverted that he wants to talk endlessly about what other people are doing in bed. The facts are there for all to see -- I'm only drawing the obvious conclusions. If it wasn't for the Orwellian Celto-fascists and their agenda to make perversion acceptable, we wouldn't have to put up with a whole country full of Scotsmen! I've heard many times about the prevalence of sheep fuckers in Scotland as well. I don't make this stuff up -- it's a matter of public record! The Celto-fascists want us to believe that Scotsmen are just like anyone else. And bagpipes!! The Scottish lifestyle is obviously dangerous and needs to be looked at very, very closely.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 11:23 PM

Not to mention their obsession about haggis...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 11:30 PM

I think John may be onto something here!

My great-grandfather came to the United States from Scotland in the mid-1800s. There can be hardly any question about his sexuality, considering that he married and fathered nine children. But—that raises the burning question:   What was happening in Scotland to make him want to leave (other than a very good, well-paying job with the Hudson's Bay Company, but that, of course, is irrelevant)?

Could it not be that sheep-shagging (which obviously leads to other sorts of perversion) had become so rampant that he felt he wouldn't be allowed to lead a normal sex life if he stayed? Would he be shunned? Persecuted? Even subjected to assault because of his sexual orientation? After all, he fancied women. And did he accurately anticipate the now well-established fact (it's a matter of public record) that sheep-shagging would inevitably lead to homosexuality? With pedophilia as the inevitable consequence

He saw a very ba-a-a-a-ad future for Scottish men.

And why, I ask you (wink wink, nudge nudge), do Scottish men run around in skirts?

Don Firth

P. S. And were you aware that the bagpipes have been officially designated as a weapon of war? It's true!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 12:04 AM

"There can be hardly any question about his sexuality, considering that he married and fathered nine children."

Not, in all seriousness, Don, you will appreciate, a conclusive proof of his sexuality — Oscar Wilde married and fathered children also.

Let me stress I am concerned here with the simple facts of this particular occasionally heard argument [tho I do realise it is probably being used with a certain irony in this generally ironic post], and intend to draw no moral conclusion in this specific instance — tho would add that I think Ake's overall position absurd, irrational, oppressive, intolerant and inhumane...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 12:54 AM

I wonder if they're kind of 'thick' too? Mick Moloney tells the world that the Irish gave the pipes to the Scots and they never realized that it was a joke, a joke. lol

(Sorry, Giok!)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 01:19 AM

Ok..wait a minute..(change of tone, to curious astonishment)...
Do you mean to say, that you really are not aware of the falling national scholastic levels, and falling ranking of our children's academic as compared to the rest of the industrialized nations, in the world??..or the increasing drop out rates??

Really?(and I'm not being sarcastic), ..and you haven't heard of the Oakland California's program to introduce 1st graders to broach the subject of homosexuality??

Now I'm only asking..(not setting anyone up for an argument).

If you found out about, at least, the former, (not the homosexual thing) wouldn't you be protesting the educational system, or its inadequacies?...Maybe even write a 'protest song'?..protesting the ills that fomented this national disgrace??

Seriously!..I figured, with the topics covered on here with such voracity, that instead of pulling out sabers to do 'battle'..and rhetorically 'slay' your opponent, I would figure that those doing battle would at least care about those things they either deny or affirm...regardless of the political 'fad' of the day...because that pendulum swings...and nothing is so permanent as change.

Perhaps if everyone's 'perception' of being adversarial, or anticipating an adversary, has blinded ones ability, to take in information, and process it accurately.

Intelligence is the ability to process information. The cleaner one keeps their filter, the more information you get to process.

By the way, the topic is.." 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,"

Peace..GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 01:53 AM

I know, GtS - and they are Scots. :)

"...haven't heard of the Oakland California's program to introduce 1st graders to broach the subject of homosexuality??"

That is a seriously garbled sentence, you know. Just what are you saying? That first graders are broaching the subject of homosexuality?

As for the falling grades of US kids, that is nothing new, sadly. Check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:18 AM

Hello, Ebbie..."As for the falling grades of US kids, that is nothing new, sadly. Check it out."

I know, that's why I was blown away that anyone would post a request to qualify that statement, by demanding a link. I thought that was pretty much common knowledge.

As for my sentence...hmmm...let me look at it to see if I can re-phrase..hold on..........................

oh, ok, back.....

There was a big 'to do' in the press about that recent controversy. Again, I thought our 'esteemed panel of saber thrusters' would have heard about it. Guess not.

Oh well,..sorry. What can I say?

By the way, HI, up there.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:48 AM

"As for the falling grades of US kids, that is nothing new, sadly. Check it out."

Not to mention the numbers of kids who grow up knowing nothing about sex and reproduction because their parents either don't care or are too hung up to teach it properly...

... Kids who are uneducated about sex and who become pregnant in their early teensor even es early as 11 or 12 ...

... girls who don't know what's happening to them when their period starts and feel afraid, dirty and ashamed by what is happening to their bodies ...

Sex education at school should definitely not only be taught with the consent of parents, but should be a mandatory part of education from a young age so that kids are emotionally prepared for what is to come.


Then there are kids who live at home with a same sex couple.

They go to school and they encounter other kids who find this different.

It is important that Kids are taught not to discriminate against homosexuals.

This des not mean that they should be taught all the yucky sticky details that Ake loves to work himself into a froth over.

It also does not mean that kids need to be taught about cunnilingus or felletio, bondage or voyeurism etc etc.

It means that they should be taught tolerance and acceptance.

Then the kids who, unlike their other classmates, find that they are finding members of their own sex strangely compelling, will also have a chance to grow up without feelings of self hate, shame and disgust with themselves.


All kids deserve the chance to grow up with self esteem.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 08:31 AM

..most heterosexual couples marry to procreate...rubbish. I sure as hell didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:37 AM

"Everyone knows it"
Is an excuse not to provide the citation.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:42 AM

I've spent 30 years being married, with never a thought for procreation. I have several friends who are parents and who are not married.

Procreation and marriage have nothing to do with each other. But then GfS/Akenaton (whichever idiot said this) either knows this and is lying, or doesn't know this and is publicly announcing that he/she is ignorant as doorstep.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:46 AM

Perhaps, incomprehensibility, and death, of normal English syntax, be used to hide the facts, that GfS, can't think its way, out, a paper bag. Give, me a break!!! Is that, OK, with you? Why haven't, you answered, a simple question???

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:51 AM

"The last I read on this matter was that large numbers of homosexuals had always been attracted to the priesthood by the celibacy rule"
Where on earth did you read this and why should anybody - homo-or-hetrosexual go into the priesthood to be celibate?
The paedophelia practiced by the priests on the children under their protection had far more to do with the exercise of power and authority than sexual orientation - they did it because they COULD.
And where did the protection of these paedophiles by their superiors fit into the equasion?
Incidentally, the brutality included the rape and abuse of young women in such places as the Magdalene Laundries (homosexual my arse - if you'll pardon the pun).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 11:17 AM

I actually lke being ignored - it allows me to focus on the arguments without opposition which makes them (if it is possible) that much easier to demolish.


An interesting twist is that this confirms my belief that you cannot ignore racist or homophobic opinions or you risk allowing them to spread uncontested.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 11:45 AM

Well said Lox - 11 Nov 09 - 06:48 AM.

I married four times, none of those marriages were made in order to procreate. Much as I love them, my children were the result of ignorance on my part as my parents did not give me any sex education at home and this was in the days before it started being given in schools.

When my children were old enough to understand they were given all the information about sex that I felt that they could handle and I tried to ensure that they were raised with as little prejudice as possible, toward ANY section of Society.

I agree with Lox - there will be children from same sex partnerships at school, subject to possible discrimination and bullying due to their family circumstances as a result of the intolerant attitudes handed down by homophobic parents to their own children. Teaching tolerance and understanding in schools of any kind of difference will, hopefully, offset the effect of the attitudes of those who bully.

From the interviews that I have heard with those who are anti same sex marriage the major point that is raised is that this is against the teaching of the Bible. What I still don't understand is why the religious book of a particular part of the community should dictate the civil rights of the whole community. If there is such an adherance to that book then why are divorced people allowed to remarry, since adultery is also considered to be a sin. Why do shops stay open on Sundays when that is supposed, according to the book, to be a day of rest?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 12:36 PM

We're up against a semantic or rhetorical impasse.

Generalized impressions of bad conditions do not contain any truth that an individual van deal with, and delivering them with rhetorical passion and histrionic exclamations merely makes the communication even worse. WHat seems to work better is clear propositions stated as accurately as possible.

The inability or unwillingness to deconstruct the general into the particular, or at least into the accurate, means that the dialogue will forever be off on tangents which are doomed to grow further and further apart.

Even though this seems like neurotic or willful obstinacy, and even though it leads to reciprocal slanders, it is possible that it just a codification problem, with perfectly reasonable viewpoints at either end separated by a fundamental difference in metaphor. IT doesn't look that way from either end, of course, but it still might be the nature of this strange rhetorical foofaraw.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 12:50 PM

It isn't a matter of codification, it is a matter of inflexible opinion underpinned by a refusal to corroborate with evidence and a refusal to consider new information.

It is also about classification, not only of those who the thread is about, but of those who disagree with the original premiss.

Existing classifications are: Immigrants, homosexuals and Liberals.

One doesn't have to read between the lines as all apparent subtext is later enthusiastically confirmed.


But your post is otherwise enjoyably obscure.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 01:04 PM

I agree that's how it looks, Lox. I'm jes' saying if we could break down the wall of incompatible language styles we might find there was more reason at the two ends than we first detected.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 01:55 PM

I don't think a wall of incompatible language styles exists.

I have indulged the idea that brutus is an honourable man for far too long.

Though I admire your patience.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

GfS rather simplistically states that "Intelligence = The ability to process information".

By this equation we find that in addition to the human race, Computers, Cell Phones, Microwave ovens, dishwashers, and automobile fuel injection systems are intelligent.

Which might perhaps explain some of GfS's posts.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:58 PM

I just logged on and—

"Do you mean to say, that you really are not aware of the falling national scholastic levels, and falling ranking of our children's academic as compared to the rest of the industrialized nations, in the world??..or the increasing drop out rates???   —GfS.

Of course we are aware of that, and it's a bloody disgrace. But your asinine attempt to lay the blame on pedophiles and homosexuals verges on the—My God, I don't know what it verges on, but even Rush Limbaugh would have trouble coming up with a howler like that!!

Don Firth

P. S. "Intelligence = the ability to process information."

As noted just above, even a simple light switch processes information (it is eiter "On" or "Off"). But granting a higher level of sophistication such as that generally (but often erroneously, it would appear) associated with humans, it's not just the ability to process information, it's the ability to process information accurately, while taking into consideration all of the relevant factors, including the existence of possible unknowns.

Logic is not just a word, it's a science as rigorous as mathematics.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 04:25 PM

Following on the posts of Lox (11 Nov 09 - 06:48 a.m.) and jacqui.c (11 Nov 09 - 11:45 a.m.), I grew up in that age when parents generally didn't tell their kids about "the birds and the bees" until they were into puberty and possibly showing some signs of sexual interest.

At the age of 12, my younger sister (7) and I were swimming in a public swimming pool when I was approached by an older man who seemed quite friendly, but for some unexplainable reason, I felt somehow suspicious of him. Then, he tried to slip his hand down inside my swimming trunks. I knew there was something "kinky" about this and I told him to leave me alone. He pulled and "Ah, gee, there's nothing wrong with this," to which I responded in a loud voice, "Get away from me or I'll call the lifeguard!!" I said it loud enough so a few other people in the pool turned and looked—including the lifeguard. The guy beat a hasty retreat and left the pool.

When my Dad came to pick Pat and me up and drive us home, I told him about what happened. He looked a bit angry and told me I had done exactly the right thing, and should anything like that happen again, do the exact same thing.

The following day, my mother handed me a book that she'd got that morning from the library. It was entitled something like "What Every Young Boy Should Know." It was a fairly slim book. She said, "I think you should read this. If you have any questions, just ask Dad or me."

I read the book. Basic information about male and female reproductive systems and how they worked, along with some tastefully inexpllcit diagrams, written at a level easily understood by someone in their early teens. Along with miscellaneous admonitions, including that whatever "urges" one might feel, this was for married couples only, so one should suppress them until marriage. Puzzling warnings about "wasting precious bodily fluids," but no information about how one does that or how to avoid it. Dire warnings about the life-ruining disaster of getting a girl pregnant. No information about birth control. I learned that a bit later from school chums.

My immediate twelve-year-old response to this new knowledge was something like, "You gotta be kidding!!" A year or two later, I began to be aware of those "urges" the book mentioned and figured, "Well, hey now—!" (Flamingly heterosexual, GfS, just in case you try to imply that I desperately need your counseling of any of this, as you did in the Prop 9 thread—that'll be the day!).

Anyway, when that guy in the swimming pool approached me, I was clueless. But as my Dad said, I did the right thing. But I can see that there could have been a different outcome in a situation like that, and such has happened to more than one youngster, sometimes with fatal results.

I grew up in an age when grown-ups tried to keep their kids in innocent ignorance about sex until it became absolutely necessary that they know. There were periods in our not too far distant history when young women were not told the facts of life until their wedding night was imminent. And sometimes not even then, her parents often leaving it to her new husband to enlighten her. And beyond a few basics, he might not be all that enlightened himself!

My two sisters and I survived our adolescence with no problems. But withholding knowledge from kids until "absolutely necessary," can be pretty traumatic. I've heard of more that one young girl who had been kept in ignorance until her first period occurred, and she was terrified that something was horribly wrong with her and that she was about to die! That's not just negligent parenting, that's just downright cruel!

I'm all in favor of sex education being taught in school. This, of course implies that what is taught is age-appropriate and is taught by teachers competent to teach the subject. I'm not sure I agree, however, with the idea that parents should be allowed to determine whether they want their kids to receive this information or not. There are things kids simply need to know, whether their parents think so or not.

And yes, that includes information about what some might regard as the "sideroads" of sexuality, not just what most consider "normal" heterosexual sex.

Okay, GfS and Ake:   Take your best shot!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:11 PM

Don.

It isn't about them, its about dealing with ignorance and prejudice and having a grown up discussion about things that matter.

Things that you seem to have no difficulty with.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:35 PM

Don, I think that's the same book my dad gave me when I was 12! He tossed the book on my bed and said, "read this" and then tossed a condom and said, "use this". I was both mystified and mortified.

Sex Ed in the schools is definitely a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 11:11 PM

Well, my dad was so embarrassed by the whole subject he left it up to my mom, who drew me some pictures on a pad of paper and let it go at that. Well, he was busy, of course... :D



A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 02:38 AM

n⋅tel⋅li⋅gence
  /ɪnˈtɛlɪdʒəns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [in-tel-i-juhns] Show IPA
Use intelligence in a Sentence
See web results for intelligence
See images of intelligence
–noun
1.         capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc

        
intelligent
        
        
in·tel·li·gent [ in téllijənt ]


2. sensible or rational: showing or resulting from an ability to think and understand things clearly and logically
an intelligent solution

3. comput able to store and process data: having a built-in electronic processing and data storage ability


...Yes..the ability to process information!!!

As for machines: "3. comput able to store and process data: having a built-in electronic processing and data storage ability"

Duhh!........Houston, we have a problem in the Mudcat forum..some people, professing to be wise, don't know what intelligence is, and will argue about anything..including the definition of 'intelligence'.

Beam me up, Scotty,..there is no intelligent life here!

not only that, they argue with me about the words and thoughts they try to stuff in my mouth....They must be 'folkies' of the 'Kumbayah Order'!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 03:37 AM

Quite correct Sanity, let the "intelligensia" impress one another.
The great unwashed are showing that common sense trumps phony intellectuals.....in almost every state in America....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:38 AM

Akenaton:
I asked where your information on homosexuals going into the priesthood because of the attraction of the celibacy rule.
Is it really going to take as long as it took you to respond to my clerical abuse example - or maybe it's a case of making it up as you go along to justify your somewhat blatant homophobia!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:18 AM

"Duhh!........Houston, we have a problem in the Mudcat forum..some people, professing to be wise, don't know what intelligence is, and will argue about anything..including the definition of 'intelligence'."

GfS, Definition no 3 refers to intelligence in machines.

Is that the sort that you have? are y7ou a machine?

We aren't.

We have the sort of intelligence spelled out in definition 1. and 2.

1.         capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc

      

2. sensible or rational: showing or resulting from an ability to think and understand things clearly and logically
an intelligent solution


Neither of which you referred to.


English is a complicated language.

Some words mean different things depending on their context.


And judgng by your earlier challenge with regard to the roots of ignorant, your grasp of words is shaky at best.


So you have problems with ignorance and intelligence ...

... no surprise to me.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM

Lox, re-read both of our posts, both of the Don's..I think you said it all...............................................in proving my point.

Ake, can you believe this???

Brain-lock in the first degree!!...and they still don't get it! If only they would apply the nonsense to 'possibly' include their own adherence to their own points of view, then they might even BEGIN to start having a clue!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:40 PM

GtS: your armwaving shrillness is histrionic, but it is completely unpersuasive and does not communicate. It repeatedly invokes vague generalizations and uses them antagonistically, which of course dissuades others from responding to them, or even caring what you think.

I assume you are posting to make yourself right rather than to communicate. In other words, you are not thinking, you are dramatizing your own self-righteous game against the world. How does that work for you?



A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:28 PM

GfS - you said:

"Intelligence is the ability to process information. The cleaner one keeps their filter, the more information you get to process."

Don Said:

"GfS rather simplistically states that "Intelligence = The ability to process information".

By this equation we find that in addition to the human race, Computers, Cell Phones, Microwave ovens, dishwashers, and automobile fuel injection systems are intelligent."


You posted a cut and paste from a dictionary that proved Don correct.


The cut and paste also included information about intelligence that is specific to humans.

Information which, judging by your original definition, you were unaware of. but that Don was aware of as it was he who pointed out you had neglected to take it into consideration.



Are there any other words that you need to learn the meaning of other than "ignorance" and "intelligence"?

Are there any other opposing viewpoints that you would like to corroborate at the expense of your own?


Oh and thank you for keeping me amused.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

Do any of you realise that the World turns without you? This website was set up as a homage to Blues. Why don't you all just leave?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: meself
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 02:12 PM

Clearly because, in some way, we are enjoying ourselves. What's your excuse?

Btw, the man who set up this website is still with us - as far as I know, he is free to modify it, shut it down, kick us out, or do whatever he wants to with it. Complain to him.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM

I think GfS is using it as some form of therapy to work out his unresolved issues around sexuality. I just want to give him a big kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:21 PM

Amos:"GtS: your armwaving shrillness is histrionic, but it is completely unpersuasive and does not communicate. It repeatedly invokes vague generalizations and uses them antagonistically, which of course dissuades others from responding to them, or even caring what you think."

Oh Bullshit, Amos!

Lox:"By this equation we find that in addition to the human race, Computers, Cell Phones, Microwave ovens, dishwashers, and automobile fuel injection systems are intelligent.

Lox:"Which might perhaps explain some of GfS's posts."

You forgot the other important part of the quote.."Intelligence is the ability to process information. The cleaner one keeps their filter, the more information you get to process." Political stances, that overrides common sense, muddies the filters. Obstinate adherence to those views, only damages your sense of reality. The rest, after that, is just making excuses!..and trying to ennoble those faults you might not wish to correct!

From Don:"...I knew there was something "kinky" about this and I told him to leave me alone. He pulled and "Ah, gee, there's nothing wrong with this," to which I responded in a loud voice, "Get away from me or I'll call the lifeguard!!" I said it loud enough so a few other people in the pool turned and looked—including the lifeguard. The guy beat a hasty retreat and left the pool."

So, are you saying your instincts were correct? They were. So were the instincts of the paedophile, who knew it was wrong, so he ran! Note: By the way, as the topic of this thread indicates, why did he attempt to molest you, instead of your sister???

Don:...try to imply that I desperately need your counseling of any of this, as you did in the Prop 9 thread—that'll be the day!)."

It was Prop 8.

Don:"occurred, and she was terrified that something was horribly wrong with her and that she was about to die! That's not just negligent parenting, that's just downright cruel!..."

I would agree with you, in saying it was negligent parenting. Sound familiar???(From your own post in the 'Prop 8' thread!!!!)..But OF COURSE, you claim it was of "...no fault of my own"! Sure Don, and it sounds to me, that you've been making excuses ever since...even found a political view that you've adopted to support your acquiescence of responsibility, and guilt! How convenient. Not only that, you claim the 'gene'(which there isn't one), comes from the woman(your wife)!! Wow!

Don: "...I'm all in favor of sex education being taught in school. This, of course implies that what is taught is age-appropriate and is taught by teachers competent to teach the subject."

Well I'm all in favor of having sex education come from the parents, as part of NURTURING their children. It worked for me! Both from my parents, and then onto my children. (Part of that 'responsibility' thing, that you claimed to missed out on, from NO FAULT, of course, of your own. Sounds like lame excuse making, for being lame!!

Oh, by the way, that wasn't even my best shot, that you invited me to take. I'm still being 'polite', as I mentioned before. Don't get angry, instead, reflect, and be honest with yourself, before you launder your guilt for your inadequacies, through the guise of liberal 'political correctness'!!!!

Jacqui C:"I married four times, none of those marriages were made in order to procreate. Much as I love them, my children were the result of ignorance on my part as my parents did not give me any sex education at home and this was in the days before it started being given in schools."

Do you mean to convince anyone that after 'four marriages', you are still blaming your parents????!!??? Let's try this, Being as women claim to have the innate corner on intuition(woman's intuition), what was so important to you, that you overrode you're God given intuitions????..to pick such losers...or,.. perhaps you can't keep a man? It's one or the other. So you might consider that(and you don't need to respond here online), BEFORE you attempt to explain life's mysteries. So, what do a lot of women do? Start spouting off about 'woman's rights'. Let me clue you in, and I do so in support of your plight, your 'rights', make a lonely companion!

Regards, to all, Oh, and to Paco O'Hitler(interesting name), Hell, if this isn't homage to the blues, what is??????

Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:25 PM

Actually, what I said ain't BS this time, sweetie. It's on the record, plain as London fog.
You have genuine communication issue. Really!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:39 PM

Or perhaps others have a comprehension disability. Maybe they're too hung up in their political posturing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:53 PM

Amos, If the post, from me, two down, regarding Don, seemed vague to you, its probably OK. He knows what I'm talking about. The idea about posting on blogs, is to share ideas, and what I posted to him, regarding himself, I think would be deeply personal to him, and if others can't decipher it, its alright. I would rather bring some honest reflection to him personally, than openly embarrass him, needlessly. I truly hope he make good use of what I had to say to him. If he feels that he would want to make known exactly what I'm referring to, I'd rather have him share that. If he wishes to use it to blast at me, well, I'll blast back. Actually, I'm routing for him, and would that he makes good use of my posts to him, to get through his 'protective' shell.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:59 PM

Correction: Fourth line down should read, ..."he makes good use..."

Regards to all, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:49 AM

Wow. Classic projection.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:21 AM

Actually GfS - Re

'Correction: Fourth line down should read, ..."he makes good use..."'

"I hope he make good use", as you initially posted, would be perfectly acceptable grammatically, as 'hope' can take the subjunctive.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:22 AM

Ebbie, not projection, but response to things Don posted himself! So, in turn, classic jumping in, and not knowing what you're talking about, with all due respect.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:24 AM

MtheGM, Thank you. You are correct.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:54 AM

lol

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:07 AM

Laugh all you want, but people in pain, and the damage to children of that pain, are really not that funny....well, at least to other people that care, about others. Hope your festivals are filed with merriment!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:34 AM

"You forgot the other important part of the quote"

No, it's in my post.

You must have filtered that information out before you got round to processing it ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 11:30 AM

As if you gave a hoot. lol

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:59 PM

Yes, you are right, GfS. Mark it down in your diary. It IS "Prop. 8," not Prop. 9. However—it was not a mistake, nor was it a typo. I knew it was an obscure reference that most people wouldn't get, but my use of "Prop. 9" alludes to "Plan 9 from Outer Space," generally considered to be the worst, stupidest, most incompetent movie ever made. So bad, in fact, that it's considered by some to be a classic.

I'm sorry if I bewildered you into believing that you had caught me in an error (which, of course, would expose me as a total dork who can't even get the simplest data right, hence, not worth listening to), but first, that you didn't get the reference is not surprising. I don't imagine a lot of people did. But that you leapt on it with such glee and simply HAD to point it out says more about you than it does about me.

And as far as my "negligent parenting" is concerned, GfS, you don't know what the hell you are talking about, which convinces me that either your claim about being a counselor is either bogus, or you are the kind of counselor who does more damage than good. You're making accusations and laying blame when you have no knowledge whatsoever of what the real situation was. Best shot? Dud ammunition!!

And as to this:   "Don't get angry, instead, reflect, and be honest with yourself, before you launder your guilt for your inadequacies, through the guise of liberal 'political correctness'!!!!"

Doesn't apply to my situation at all, but it strikes me that it might very well be you talking about yourself as far as guilt and inadequacies are concern. And especially about being honest with yourself.

You, GfS, are a very petty person.

If anyone is really interested in what GfS is accusing me of, I'll be happy to explain in detail.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:23 PM

You are under no obligation to explain anything to anyone Don.

To the casual reader GfS has been tied up in knots, and as Amos sympathetically points out she comes across as a bit unhinged and desperate.

I would suggest that you retract your offer and remember that GfS's jabbing of raw nerves has no bearing on this discussion and marks her out as an unreliable source for any kind of helpful opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:41 PM

Don: 'I'm sorry if I bewildered you into believing that you had caught me in an error (which, of course, would expose me as a total dork who can't even get the simplest data right, hence, not worth listening to), but first, that you didn't get the reference is not surprising. I don't imagine a lot of people did. But that you leapt on it with such glee and simply HAD to point it out says more about you than it does about me.'

Like I said, excuses, excuses, excuses.

As for the negligent parenting, you must have lied in your earlier post in the Prop 8 thread, or you're lying now..or maybe you just forgot, which I doubt.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.

By the way, you didn't even address the topic of the thread, about why he attempted to molest you, and not your sister. Typical change of subject, then attack on a non issue. You are famous for it.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Let's get back to the topic, which by your post, you have experience to draw from.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM

It might also be helpful if GfS could spare the two seconds extra to differentiate between Don Firth and myself, when firing these blank charges.

It might conceivably be marginally less boring if the target being missed were clearly identified.

Don T....Not Don F.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:55 PM

"To the casual reader GfS has been tied up in knots, and as Amos sympathetically points out she comes across as a bit unhinged and desperate."

I would add considerably lacking in any kind of taste.

Her persistence despite having had her position utterly demolished, including the red herrings she has thrown to create a diversion, combined with her cynical personal attacks on Don, drawing attention to something which sounds like a very sensitive subject to say the very least for the sake of her personal satisfaction and his humiliation, indicate that Amos is in fact very generous in his appraisal.

GfS is very sick and her posts sould not be treated with the same seriousness as other posters on here.

Don should definitely not allow her under his skin. Her words have no bearing on your life, they are all about her.

GfS ... what can I say that will resonate with you ... probably nothing ... good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM

Right, Lox.

My "negligent parenting" involved a situation in which I was not allowed to participate, when I wanted to. For GfS to accuse me of "negligent parenting" indicates to me that, among other things, GfS has a bit of a cruel streak.

I believe that this creature's attacks on me more than adequately demonstrate that if there are any sad excuses around here, he/she/it is the one.

And this waste of protoplasm claims to be a counselor!?? If this is true, then God help its clients!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

I suspect it isn't cruelty, more likely a compulsion.

Either way - not your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:39 PM

ROTFLMAO!
Correction: Fourth line down should read, ..."he makes good use..."
Says it all really. Never was a GUEST better named!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:54 PM

Aye your a sad pair right enough!
Weeping and holding one another's hand while consistently attacking Sanity and myself right from the beginning of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:15 PM

Don T, I haven't confused the two of you, to my knowledge.

DonF:'My "negligent parenting" involved a situation in which I was not allowed to participate, when I wanted to.'

Not allowed????? That must be an interesting story, if it was divorce, the courts usually make some sort of an arrangement ....unless one is found to be an unfit parent, or where there is a case of domestic violence, drug addictions, abandonment or molestation of the child. That is pretty standard, nationwide.

Lox:'GfS is very sick and her posts sould not be treated with the same seriousness as other posters on here.'

I started my earlier post, with "Paedophilia, is paedophilia, no matter what gender"! A lot of the other posts have been defending homosexuality!!!!...or maybe they're defending paedophilia, just because in this instance a homosexual took part in it. But if you scroll back, take a look, you'll see where the thread got off, into the right and sanctity of homosexuality, of which I disagree, with the sanctity part...other than pointing out, that both homosexuals and paedophiles have issues with emotional maturity, to which promoters of one or the other had a tizzy fit! Grow up!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 10:18 PM

GfS:   "Not allowed????? That must be an interesting story, if it was divorce, the courts usually make some sort of an arrangement ....unless one is found to be an unfit parent, or where there is a case of domestic violence, drug addictions, abandonment or molestation of the child. That is pretty standard, nationwide."

You ARE a real wad of scum, GfS!

You're making up your own scenarios without knowing anything about it and trying to put the worst possible spin on it. There was no "domestic violence, drug addictions, abandonment or molestation of the child." In fact, there was no marriage (is that a clue, there?), hence, no divorce, and at no time were we living together, nor was there any possibility for any of your bill of particulars.

It was a simple case that she and I were not married. It's not an uncommon occurrence. And no, it was not just a casual roll in the hay! We had known each other for years. As to the matter of pregnancy out of wedlock, I would say there is equal responsibility there (and before you start, no, we were not just a couple of irresponsible Sixties hippies). As for myself, I would have married her, but she didn't want to marry me. I was trying to make a living by my music (singing engagements, teaching guitar, and studying at a nearby music conservatory), and she preferred more security than I could have provided. Her choice. Besides, we lived in different cities. In fact, we lived in different countries.

She did marry, and as far as my son knew, the man she married was his father. He had a good childhood, both his mother and his step-father were excellent parents, and he had a number of siblings. Any attempt on my part to try to participate would have been intrusive and disruptive. Or so I was told! So I mercifully stayed away.

When he was grown up and out of college (that late!), she felt he had a right to know who his real father was, so with my permission (we corresponded from time to time, and she sent me pictures of him now and then), she told him.

He telephoned me and we talked for hours. He came to Seattle a short time later and we met face to face. Seeing him for the first time was a bit uncanny. He looks like a younger version of myself. When Barbara picked him up at the train station, she said she had no problem at all picking him out of the crowd.

No animosity, no recriminations, no blame. He understood our situation fully and sympathized with it.

He lives in eastern Canada with his partner (female), they work together, often under contract to the Canadian government (ecological concerns), and since I am unable to travel, they come and stay with Barbara and me a couple of times a year. These are most enjoyable visits. We talk for hours and hours. Among other things he has worked in the film industry, and he is an excellent writer.

We are the best of friends. I am immensely proud of my son. And it may give you an idea of how he seems to feel about me, because he told Barbara that, although he bears the surname of another man, he is planning to have it legally changed to mine.

So, GfS, sometime soon, there may be TWO Don Firths in the world! How does that grab you!??

Now, take your sick scenarios and go play in the traffic!

Don Firth

P. S. I told you most of this on the Prop. 8 thread, but your memory is apparently as faulty as your logic. Either that, or you have no respect for facts (surprise, surprise!!)!

P. P. S. Sorry about the thread drift. But since Guest FROM Sanity seems hell-bent on libeling me with obscure a intentionally distorted references to something I wrote on the previous thread, I felt it incumbent upon me to set the record straight.

Now back to our regular broadcast.

Or just let this stupid thread die.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:10 AM

No commentary by me, just cut and paste, except the last question:

From: GUEST,g
Ake & GfS - it seems all you are3 doing is trying to conduct a campaign in favour of common sense.
Pointless trying that here these days.

GfS:"If he wishes to use it to blast at me, well, I'll blast back. Actually, I'm routing for him, and would that he makes good use of my posts to him, to get through his 'protective' shell."


From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 01:05 AM

And as far as being bigoted toward Christians, GfS, I am a member of Central Lutheran Church here in my neighborhood.
,
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:05 PM

".....Obviously, therefore, I am not a Fundamentalist.

Don't try to get into a religious argument with me, GfS. I'm one of the few people who have actually read the Bible all the way through...And if it's something I'm not sure about, I can telephone any or all of six Lutheran pastors, a couple of Baptists, a Methodist, a couple of Episcopalians, and a Catholic priest and ask. When someone is trying to con me, I know it.

From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 12:57 AM

"... there are Christians, and then there are "Christians.".....
....My side of the street is nice and clean, but thank you for your concern.

From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:05 PM

Don't try to get into a religious argument with me, GfS. I'm one of the few people who have actually read the Bible all the way through,

From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 10:18 PM "In fact, there was no marriage (is that a clue, there?), hence, no divorce, and at no time were we living together, nor was there any possibility for any of your bill of particulars.

It was a simple case that she and I were not married. It's not an uncommon occurrence. And no, it was not just a casual roll in the hay! We had known each other for years. As to the matter of pregnancy out of wedlock, I would say there is equal responsibility there (and before you start, no, we were not just a couple of irresponsible Sixties hippies). As for myself, I would have married her, but she didn't want to marry me. I was trying to make a living by my music (singing engagements, teaching guitar, and studying at a nearby music conservatory), and she preferred more security than I could have provided. Her choice."

James1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
From Strong's Concordance >

    Double minded > 1374. diqucov dipsuchos, dip'-soo-khos
    from 1364 and 5590; two-spirited, i.e. vacillating (in opinion or purpose):--double minded.

    Unstable > 182. akatastatov akatastatos, ak-at-as'-tat-os
    from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 2525; inconstant:--unstable.

Some dictionaries define double minded using the terms, "Having different minds at different times", "unsettled," "undetermined".

It is impossible for someone to say they fully love and serve God and be double minded.

Matthew 6:19 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
   
There are many people who make the claim to belong to Jesus Christ and yet serve the flesh and idols of the heart. Many mind earthly things, having their "sacred cows". The Scriptures are clear about that too.

Philippians 3:17 "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
    18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Part of this double minded spirituality, besides serving the flesh and instead of having a heart focus for Christ alone, is the idea that a person can have the 'best' of both 'worlds.'

In essence, a double-minded person so lacks conviction in their beliefs that they are found to often change loyalties or ideas, depending who they are with, desiring to influence or wanting to show allegiance to or have association with.

The double minded man is actually dishonest with themselves and others, and appears to use truth and lies in whatever situation to benefit themselves in some way. The person is filled with hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy

Strong's Concordance>

    5272. upokrisiv hupokrisis, hoop-ok'-ree-sis
    from 5271; acting under a feigned part, i.e. (figuratively) deceit ("hypocrisy"):--condemnation, dissimulation, hypocrisy.

    5271. upokrinomai hupokrinomai, hoop-ok-rin'-om-ahee
    middle voice from 5259 and 2919; to decide (speak or act) under a false part, i.e. (figuratively) dissemble (pretend):--feign.

WordNet Dictionary> Hypocrisy

    Definition: 1. Insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

2. an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction

    Synonyms: lip service
    See Also: dissembling, falseness, feigning, fulsomeness, insincerity, oiliness, pretense, sanctimoniousness, sanctimony, smarminess, unction, unctuousness.

    http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/hypocrisy.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Hypocrisy

    Definition: "...outward show...to play a part, the act or practice of a hypocrite, a feigning to be what one is not, or to feel what one does not feel, a dissimulation, or a concealment of one's real character, disposition, or motives; especially the assuming of false appearance of virtue or religion; a simulation of goodness..."

       Hypocrisy is the necessary burden of villainy....

       Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue....

       http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/hypocrisy.

People who are double minded and mind earthly things, regardless of what it is, desire to serve the flesh and God. They are playing a spiritual game of fence straddling, thinking they can take from God

Of all the things that God hates, duplicity of mind and hypocrisy are named many times in the Scriptures.

The concept of this hypocrisy and duality of mind and purpose seems to make the person believe that God abides the confession to and vain worship of Himself from someone who on the other side of his face loves the things that are against God."


From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:05 PM

"Don't try to get into a religious argument with me, GfS. I'm one of the few people who have actually read the Bible all the way through,"

Time to reflect??
Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:19 AM

""Don T, I haven't confused the two of you, to my knowledge.""

Then I'll spell it out so your knowledge will be slightly more up to date.

When you post one of your interminable screeds responding to one of us, and you simply refer to "Don", the reader may have to trawl through a dozen posts from both of us, to make sense of it.

When you respond to both of us in separate paragraphs of the same post, it becomes even more confusing.

Your posts are incomprehensible enough without that added difficulty, and even I, (and, I suspect, Don F) have difficulty in sorting out which of us is referred to, when returning from doing other things.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:47 AM

Sorry Don T, I'll try to be more careful, and precise, as not to confuse the two of you with each other...GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Lox
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:25 AM

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:10 AM

Huh?

GUESTg is our resident BNP troll so I don't know why you are quoting him/her ...

And what is your list of Don Firth quotes intended to show?


and your referral to dictionary quotes?


I have never read such an wild and random series of unconnected cut and pastes in my life.

I'd ask you what the hell you are on about but it is clear that you have no idea.


And these are the people that Ake wishes to sit in the corner and lick his wounds with.


"Aye your a sad pair right enough!" .... indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:02 AM

Actually, I believe that I understand Gfs's post of 4:10 AM quite well, and can summarize it as follows:

A true, mature, Christian is a fundamentalist, and agrees with all Gfs says. Any other church member or professing Christian is either not a real Christian at all, or at best a weak, confused, unstable, poor excuse for a Christian.

I base my evaluation on a background of 30 years of my life as a fundamentalist, including three years of indoctrination at Moody Bible Institute.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM

Lox:"And what is your list of Don Firth quotes intended to show?"

As I said before, I'm actually routing for Don, really. I'm not bashing him, but rather the shell. Otherwise, what's it to you? Your posts are mere nonsensical name calling, and digs.

Don said something in an earlier post of his (which I won't say, right now), that causes me to REALLY root for him, but like others, whose political stances, get in the way, and suppresses the great person that is in there. Some of that needs to let go of, so the monster(not to be confused with 'dragon'), can come out!
..and by the way, to Don, though we've butt heads, I have regards to you! Sometimes when seemingly antagonists, have a meeting of minds and hearts, one only finds out that the affinity, between the two, was far more positive, and productive, than first apparent!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM

To be quite honest, I didn't (and don't) have the patience to wade through that collection of cut-and-pastes and Bible quotes that GfS apparently labored all night to assemble (sorry, GfS, but I'm beginning to find you a bloody bore!), but after a quick scan, I think he/she/it is trying to tell me that I'm an egregious sinner and a hypocrite, and that God's gonna get me for my many transgressions!

Gee! This is a whole new side to GfS! I knew he/she/it fantasized a lot, but I didn't know that included fantasies about being an Evangelist!

"Double-minded?" How did you manage to come up with that? And what is it supposed to mean? Two heads? Or simply undecided about something? And what's wrong with being undecided? Perhaps one is waiting to learn all the facts before one makes a decision.

That's a good thing, GfS!

Well, quoting Bible verses and combing through concordances notwithstanding, everyone who breathes faces conflicts from time to time and has to make decisions. And there are also times when decisions are made for one about which, in good conscience, one can do nothing to alter, and you just have to go along with it.

Yes, I can demolish you in this area, GfS, but I'm not going to waste my time, primarily because none of your Biblical quotes apply to me, either now, or my situation of some decades back, and even if I did take the time to refute you point-by-point, your next move would be just to pick some other irrelevancy and try to attack me with that. So, why should I bother?

By the way, because I belong to a main-line Christian church does not mean that I buy all of the standard dogma, so trying to whip me with the Bible isn't going to work. First of all, Central Lutheran is quite a liberal church, and over the years it's had a number of very bright, open-minded pastors, with whom I've had the pleasure of many interesting, deep discussions on matters of religion and philosophy.

Among other things, I do not believe in an anthropomorphic God. I believe that if there is any kind of conscious entity that might be considered "God," the nature of that entity is so far beyond human understanding that anyone who claims to know "the mind of God" or that they are speaking "the word of God" is engaging in hyperbole at best, or is deluded themselves. Or at worst, is trying to con you.

This does not mean that belonging to a church is inconsistent with my beliefs, nor (since the pastors know my position and find it to be a perfectly reasonable one) does it mean I am sailing under false pretenses.

One of the pastors once held up a copy of the Bible and said, "This is not the Scout Manual. It does not contain all the answers. It contains questions!"

Other than the Bible, I believe the Hebrew historian, Josephus fairly well establishes that there was a historical Jesus, but other than being a "prophet" and eventually being crucified, Josephus doesn't say much more. So I do believe there was an actual Jesus, but as to all the things attributed to him in the New Testament, since most of it was written long after the fact, the evidence for it is all hearsay. Since much of it—and most of the Bible as a whole—appears to be consistent with the mythologies characteristic of all the world's different religions, I feel that the only intelligent position to take is to adopt the position of the agnostic.

Saying that something is "mythological," according to Joseph Campbell, does not mean that it is false: it means that it is often quite true, but it is expressed as a metaphor rather than being presented as an actual historical fact. Hence, there is no real inconsistency between the Creation myth in the Book of Genesis and what cosmologists, astronomers, paleontologists, and anthropologists tell us.

Much of what Jesus is reputed to have said is really quite good. I—and the church to which I belong—generally consider Matthew 25:35-40 to be the core of Christian teaching, although others tend to focus more on Jesus' presumed Godhood, and such things as the Resurrection, being saved, getting to Heaven, and avoiding having Lucifer sink his fangs into their asses. Compared to the Matthew passage, having one's mind so much on Heaven that one is no earthly good, seem a bit self-centered, which ain't exactly a Christian virtue, n'est-ce pas?

So—my main efforts at and contributions to the church go to the free meals program, and to LATCH, a committee dedicated to finding or building low-cost housing for the homeless or folks with very low incomes.

What do you do in your spare time, GfS? Other than hassle gays?

I've quoted my wise old uncle a number of times, but his cogent advice seems particularly germane at this point in the thread:

"My boy, don't waste your time arguing with an idiot."

Don Firth

P. S. I'm sorry to have drifted way off the subject of the thread, but when one is attacked by ferrets, one does tend to try to deal with the little vermin before proceeding. However, as to this thread and it's main subject, I would say that it has long since passed its "sell by" date and is really beginning to reek.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:11 PM

Cross posted.

"Don said something in an earlier post of his (which I won't say, right now), that causes me to REALLY root for him, but like others, whose political stances, get in the way, and suppresses the great person that is in there. Some of that needs to let go of, so the monster(not to be confused with 'dragon'), can come out!"

What convoluted trail are you following now, GfS? I have no idea what you're talking about. Although, having dug yourself into a hole, you seem, from this post, to be trying to climb back out.

"..and by the way, to Don, though we've butt heads, I have regards to you! Sometimes when seemingly antagonists, have a meeting of minds and hearts, one only finds out that the affinity, between the two, was far more positive, and productive, than first apparent!"

You have a damned funny way of showing it.

I find that after the consistent and persistent attacks that you have made on me in this and the Prop. 8 thread, I would have a pretty hard time believing that you "have regards" to me. So far, you have treated my with nothing but contempt and a lot of semi-veiled false accusations.

If you want any further dialog with me, you'd better make yourself a whole lot clearer than you have done so far.

By the way, I will not be back today. I have a life to live in the real world.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:21 PM

"Sometimes when seemingly antagonists, have a meeting of minds and hearts, one only finds out that the affinity, between the two, was far more positive, and productive, than first apparent!"

Good grief!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:30 PM

Incidentally, I made an error in that last post.

I meant to say: Good, grief.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' activists jailed for paedophilia,
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:13 PM

LOL Ebbie

Don T