How much patience do you have?

Subject: How much patience do you have?
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:39 AM

Each day I discover something new about me. This morning I realized that I no longer have much patience with people, organizations, business groups, theaters, schools, etc., that DO NOT return messages promptly. Let me explain: I "retired" from construction four years ago and I picked up my guitar. Since then, I've been finding enjoyment and success in concertizing and teaching music classes again. But, lately I've been noticing that many "contacts" I have are very sloppy in returning messages in a timely manner.

My desk is getting buried now in many music opportunities: concerts, small gigs, big gigs, teaching gigs, some theater, and some radio work. But this morning I "wrote off" three potential performances because I haven't heard back from them in over 6 weeks.

Is this a problem for you also? It's driving me nutz! HOw do you handle it? Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:46 AM

It certainly is a fact of life. Now.
If you are touting for work, as I find, you can chase all you want but the answers are vague and mendacious. Basically the buyer (your potential employer) is far too busy to contact you, you have to contact them. If you ask, they will give you answers that lead you to think the options are open yet they are, in truth, favouring others. If they book you, you are the others.
Employment agencies are a disaster area. Add to that the current economic climate and it just gets worse. Attitudes are not as moral as they were.

AND YOU TRY TELLING YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY.................

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: RTim
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM

NONE!

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: meself
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:15 AM

Let me get back to you on that ....

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:16 AM

I'M WAITING ..... sheeeuuuuuhhhh!

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:25 AM

This of course isn't universally true, but when one bad thing happens, then another, it starts seeming like the norm. Re-enforced aggravation.

The friends I think I want don't want friends.
People--friends, businesses--say they're going to do something then don't, and then get pissed off if I complain about it. Of course, if they get pissed off first, it serves as an excuse for not following through.
I honestly try to not make promises if I can't deliver. I can't recall ever breaking one, although I may have.

I know people aren't perfect, and are bound to mess up sometimes or get sidetracked by life. What really bothers me is that they don't even TRY, and I don't believe they ever had the intention to do what they said they would. I think sometimes they tell me things just to get me to shut up. ("The check's in the mail," "Our claims department is reviewing your case," "I'll e-mail/call you later.")It might save a lot of time and bitter disappointment just to tell the truth from the beginning.

My way of dealing with it all is to flat-out not believe anybody anymore. Not unless I already know I can trust them... or unless THEY need something from ME. Karmic escrow. It's a hard way to go, but it's better than made a fool of constantly.

Did people really lie to me less when I was a kid, or did I care less?

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 03:58 PM

Do the recipients see your messages as something to return or do they see them as just more spam?

In my day job I get a lot of emails from people touting for contracts or trying to sell me software. I just hit the delete key.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: DebC
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:11 PM

When I am doing my booking work (I am a musician) I find that out of around every 30 or so contacts maybe, MAYBE one replies.

People are way too busy and to the bookers and organisers, I am probably one in a gazillion who contact them on a daily basis.

It's a fact of life in the world in which I work.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:16 PM

If I get a request from somebody wanting a gig, I at least have the decency to reply back and say yes or no. Most often, it is becuase the act does not suit the style of my venue or who I want to put on. I explain that.
However, I get a lot of artists asking me for gigs, who are not folk and haven't done their homework on who and what my venue does. For those I just delete them. I find those post as spamming rude.

Just bear in mind, that many organisers do not want to say no, but some find it very difficult to say no, so they delete and don't get back.

Nothing is final until the organiser responds saying yes. Those need to go on your backburner, and if something else comes up in between, then phone the organiser telling them that you have had another offer for that date and you would like to take that if they can't take you on.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: GUEST,Big Elk
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:14 PM

I do bookings for a folk club. I am desperate to book new artistes on the up but find it nigh on impossible.

Artistes don't respond to messages or e mails. Why make a phone call when 15 e mails will do as well!

I am fed up of poor myspace sites and impossible demos that can not be replicated on stage!

I have already ranted on Mudcat about people who claim support gigs on my space and facebook when all they have done is turn up and done a floor spot

Artistes expect you to sit on a date for a month whilst they sort out if they can do it! Don't even start me on agents!

PLEASE DONT BE PATIENT.
Do some work. Get out there, go to clubs and get seen, show you can do the job, THEN ASK FOR A BOOKING. Or, if you are wrong for the club you will at least have avoided a disaster.

This was always the way in the good old days when Roy Bailey had a full head of hair and we all thought we were bright young things. Now we all hide behind e.mails, downloads and "my space". The new tradition seems to be run on laptops or Blackberries and we seem to all have forgotten that "getting a booking is selling".

Selling is about establishing a need, building a relationship then demonstrating that your goods or services are of value. Only when a need is established proceed to negotiating a price and asking for the business. Please explain how spamming folk club organisers meets this criteria. The only people who can sell my e mail are the very well established or those willing to prostitute their product on price. I assume that you are neither of these.

Artistes, unless you are well enough established that the bookings come to you, please get of you're backsides and get out and see people. Find a sensible balance and call people (don't pester, call at meal, times or after 9.30 pm).
Then perhaps follow up with an e mail.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: skipy
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:36 PM

With Mudcat none at all, to them I am not a "folkie" I had tickets for Banbury but did not go because if I did I knew the singaround would be full of "catters" & I knew that I would not be welcome.
Skipy A nonfolkie in your view

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:07 PM

As I age I was pleased that I seem to be more patient; then I realized I just don't give a shit.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:15 PM

I find the reverse of Kendall's situation , but mostly with Drunks and idiots in Pubs ! Other than that I tend to not give a shit either !!

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM

{{{{skipy}}}} folk enough for me!

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:05 PM

Sometimes a lack of patience can be chalked up to a lack of perspective. As for music, I can see it from both sides. When I ran a concert series, I'd get an average of two or three tapes a week(it was cassettes back in those days) and a promo kit of varying professionalism from musicians looking for bookings. I ran a concert once a month for 7 months. The audience wanted favorite performers to come back every two or three years, so I could only book a small percentage of people I thought would fit the series every year. People would send in cassettes and I'd try to get back to them and tell them that I was interested in booking them but it might take a year or two. Or let them know as kindly as I could that the music they plaed didn't really fit into the kind of concerts I was doing. As time went by, I found myself so deluged with requests that I couldn't keep up with sending personal letters or making phone calls to everyone who asked for a booking. I hated that but while it might have been hard for performers to understand, I actually had a life beyond just booking folks.

When my book came out, I sent out promotional material about the book and my music to a dozen places, and approached several book stores for doing a concert/book signing. Most places never responded. That was alright. I figured that they had other stuff to do. Some places never do concerts or book signings, so I could hardly fault them for not booking me. Some places do them rarely, so when I get a phone call as I did the other night responding to promotional material I mailed out nine months ago it didn't surprise me. The woman who called is a volunteer and has plenty of other pressures in her life, I'm sure.

A couple of days ago I sent out 30 packages of promotional material to area churches. Some probably never do book signings or concerts. Some may be interested but won't get back to me until they have an event where they could use me. So be it. When you cast bread on the water, you can't dictate when a response is coming back to you, or whether or not you'll ever get one. I cut people a break. I hope they do the same for me.

Jerry

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: meself
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:37 AM

"When you cast bread on the water, you can't dictate when a response is coming back to you, or whether or not you'll ever get one."

Or when you drop a rose into the Grand Canyon - or when you cast pearls before swine - or piss into the wind - or sew your wild oats - or ....

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: LostHills
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:35 AM

Well, you've got to have patience to survive in the music world, ad you've got to have forgiveness...

I've had bookers who didn't respond to my query for months, and then write back out of the blue and offer me a booking. I've had them book me, and then a month later I look at their calendar and see someone else listed on "my" night. I've had them spell my name wrong more than once and advertise me by my real name instead of my stage name. They'll change the date and time and the length of your set on you, too. At the last minute of course. You've got to roll with it, man. Don't take it personal. Nobody's perfect, and the world doesn't revolve around you. The booker's job is not easy, and artists screw up all the time, too.

Welcome to the real world, and accept it for what it is with love in your heart. It's the only world you've got...

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Deckman
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:22 AM

Interesting comments ... thanks ... Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:39 AM

Skipy - is your music available to listen to somewhere? do you have a myspace?

thanks

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:40 AM

Less and less as age increases ! I don't drive,but if I'm in someone else's car,and we get stuck on the motorway because someone has had a stupid & avoidable accident that has blocked the carriageway (GRRR!) and caused huge tailbacks ( tailsback ?) then GRRRR! I get very cross and impatient indeed. And another thing......why do people in supermarket queues have to chat to the cashier,to whom legions of them appear to be related,or are neighbours of, or shared a cell in prison with,about the weather,the new baby,the divorce,their piles / incontinence / partner's prostate etc. .....I can't STAND it ....until it's my turn,of course !!

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:45 AM

when one bad thing happens, then another, and then people get thinking that it IS the norm. "If that's the way it is then thats the way I play it" attitude. Standards slip. It is why old fogies bemoan the decline in morality and courtesy. They have known better. Haven't we?

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:20 AM

Not much! Thirty six years of teaching secondary school (high school), it's pretty well all used up.

Rog

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:59 PM

I always remember being told:

"Patience is a virtue, possess it if you can,
Seldom in a woman, but never in a man!"

A piece of good ol' Suffolk wisdom!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:26 PM

I' not sure that it's lack of patience--over the years I've gotten used to the fact that most   things takes time--I think that, after years of experience, it takes less time to tell when something is not worth the effort.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:08 PM

Bob:

I'm 69 and still a working stiff, albeit for a non-profit now. I work with a lot of young folks who are very computer savvy; texting, facebook, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Most are surprisingly good at returning e-mails promptly.

However, I also have contacts with a number of outside agencies and businesses who would sooner give birth to a blowfish through the windward passage than return a message in a timely fashion. They remind me of stories my best friend, a retired general contractor, told about trying to communicate with "subs." He marveled, "You wouldn't think they needed money." Damned frustrating, I know. All you can do is work with the ones who do care.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Deckman
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:34 PM

To "GUEST: ... "Methinks you speak the truth!". bob

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: John P
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 10:07 AM

I sometimes don't return messages as promptly as I would like at work. It's always because I'm so busy that there simply isn't time to do my job with the finesse I would like. I think that more employers are expecting fewer people do to more work with fewer resources. Of course the jobs don't get done right.

As for calling about gigs, 90% of people who book for clubs or pubs seem to simply not give a shit about whatever concerns for timely booking the musician might have. And almost that many would rather string you along forever than simply say "no". Are there really that many musicians that get nasty when they don't get booked that venue people are that gun-shy? Or do they all find it difficult to say no at all? Why are they in that job if they don't want to do it? If I'm right for their stage, what makes them think I want to play there anyway?

I understand that when I call a venue, I am a salesman making a cold call and they are under no obligation to do anything at all, but at least I'm selling something they claim to be buying. I'm glad I'm not trying to make my living playing music anymore. I, too, have lost patience with it and eventually write them off as someone I don't want to do business with.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Deckman
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 10:47 AM

YEP ... the same way I'm begninning to feel.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 11:33 AM

When I deal by (e)mail, it depends on the situation, but here's the gist of it....

Blah, blah, blah....

Please advise me of when you may be able to respond so that I can schedule my workload more efficiently or re-schedule you for future contact. If you wish no further contact, a blank reply (email) would be appreciated as it will save us both time in future.

Thank you for your time and effort in this regard.

Sincerely,

I find that ending any comm with a specific request or option works more times than not.

Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

This may seem like a radical idea, and it puts the honus on the person who wants the booking (where it should be.) Once the booking person has had a couple of weeks to look at the stuff you've sent and hopefully listened to at least a couple of songs on a CD, the musician should give them a call (if they have a contact phone number.) It's a great opportunity to ask "Have you had a chance to look at the package I sent you and listen to the CD? Do you have any interest in cosidering me for a booking? The people who do the booking appreciate a follow-up call, as long as it's not two or three days after you mail the stuff. From my experience, most of the people who do bookings do it without pay. Often they end up losing money, especially if they have to pick up the cost of long distance phone calls. It's kinda adding insult to injury if someone does the bookings out of the generosity of their heart and it costs them money to do it.

When I send stuff out, I make a low-pressure follow-up call or if possible, I drop by. I'm the one who is asking for something, after all. I feel it's up to me to make it easy on the person who is doing the booking.

And of course, I've had some attrocious experiences, like everyone else, including arriving to do a concert to discover that they changed their mind without telling me and booked someone else. Once when that happened, I'd driven a couple hundred miles and had paid for a motel. Even then, it wasn't the boorishness of anyone. A volunteer who booked me left without leaving good records of who they booked and another volunteer took over.

If you try to make it easy for the person doing the booking, and do a follow-up, you're more likely to get a prompt response. And save wear and tear on your teeth. :-)

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM

Good approach, gnu.

Jerry

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:55 PM

It isn't just in the music business that people don't return e-mails and phone calls. I find it happens a lot in my 9:00 to 5:00 business too. I understand people get busy, but sometimes it's so frustrating when an issue just doesn't seem to find closure, especially when interest has been expressed. I suppose not answering is an answer of sorts. But..you never know. I received a call from a venue owner saying he'd heard about my trio and wanted more info - so I sent him a link to our on-line stuff. I then followed up with an e-mail, then a few weeks later a phone call, and just figured he wasn't interested. (Had that been the case, a simple "You guys don't really fit in with the type of music I wanted" would have been welcome). But to my surprise, I got a call from him yesterday - he's still interested, he was just busy.

How can somebody be too busy to just e-mail: "Got your link and had a listen. It sounds good. I'm busy now but will get back to you soon"?

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:24 PM

Because that is a commitment, Mary, even if it is open ended. Peeps don't like to do that. If you give them a specific request or option, they can deal with it... one way or the other.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Deckman
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:24 PM

Jerry ... I'm enjoying your comments. What you do is exacatly what I'm doing. But at some point in time I say (too myself) something that sounds a LOT like .... fooey). bob

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:32 PM

Start a fooey file and give them another go in the offing.... note that my suggestions above did not preclude further contact. That would be just silly.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: GUEST,biff
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM

I'm coming to believe that if people cannot demonstrate proper phone manners, either personal or professional, they do not get past the first gate. The first gate constitutes earned social trust which is the backbone of all positive human exchange over time.
Accountability all the way or unfortunately at some point they will leave you hanging and make you pay for their slack. Some people think generation slack is sexy but they really suck and set the template for future disintegration. Confucius said that virtue constitutes the true economic power of a society so what does that tell you about Western civilization? We're defeating ourselves.

Subject: RE: How much patience do you have?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:45 PM

Glad to hear that, Bob. It helps relieve some of the frustration. Now if you started a thread on completely incompetent, insensitive idiots who should be bricked in behind a wall in the basement, I could go on and on. I tend to let go of that stuff though, as soon as I can. It's not good for the indigestion. My worst was a complete idiot who booked my Gospel Messengers and it was confirmed (of course, not in writing,) and when I touched base a week before the concert he told me he'd booked someone else instead. When I hollered, he said my booking was only tentative, and he had a chance to get someone better than us. With great missgivings I accepted a new firm booking date another three months or so in advance. Again, I checked in a week or so in advance and he'd booked someone else instead of us because they were "professional." As if he had any concept what the word meant. When he offered me a new date, I told him if I ever heard that he had anything to do with any concert series in the future I would reject any offer for a booking. Man!

Lovely day we're having, isn't it? Have you noticed how beautiful the fall colors are? La Dee Dah. :-)

Jerry