'Share this thread'?

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:04 PM

Hi Everyone.
I saw the Icon a week or so ago and with some of the trouble we have had with Facebook refusing to remove identity theft of Mudcat members posted by The BMP.
I do not think it is a good idea.
Regards to all
Pierre,

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM

As an option it is a wonderful idea. All living systems grow.
If mudcat is to survive it should grow within limits.

This may seem to some as needlessly swimming upstream
but only dead fish float downstream.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: dwditty
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:40 PM

My thoughts:

1. Max has always struck me as having the best interest of mudcat and its members at heart - not to mention the fact that he is the one who has logged the thousands of hours to make it happen. I will support pretty much whatever he decides to do, and this instance is not an exception.

2. If one posts here with any thought of, "Gee, I hope so-and-so doesn't see this." then suffer the consequences if it gets out by any means. A few years ago our associate pastor was discussing MySpace with a bunch of teens.   She wanted to see some of them, so they all trekked up to her office. As she viewed several pages, she heard one kid whisper, "Don't let her see mine." She turned to the kid and said, "Bob, what could possibly be on your page that you would not want certain people to see?" The kid actually got the point - if teens can grasp it, I think we can, too.

3. For anyone under say 25 +/-, social networking is a fact of life. Many of the big controversies we "adults" spend hours arguing and agonizing over are simply of no concern to the next group coming up. To say we, as a group in an open forum on the net, do not want to participate in a world with social networking is naive at best and (fill in your own adjective) at the worst.

4. Have any of you "shared" a youtube video, even by passing along an email that was sent to you. Have you violated the person who put it there, or are you willing to live with the double standard?

If one acts responsibly here, there is not reason to fear that someone may bear witness by finding mudcat by accident or by facebook.

I, too, long for the good old days, but they ain't coming back. Perhaps we can do the most good by sharing as much as we possibly can of the positive aspects of mudcat as a community. There are many, many examples of wonderful human fellowship at Mudcat.   I don't post much, but have been accepted here since 1997, and I have always felt that I could say whatever I want. The fact that my words are someone isolated from the typical open and random access characteristic of other social networking sites, has in no way served as justification for me to behave in a way that might embarass me.

dw

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:07 PM

I REALLY like the discreet (tiny) but still-red and thus highly visible thingie to get the "share" menu to pop open, and I LOVE the placements (I saw two places). It draws the eye without distracting/insisting upon itself-- good 'un, Max.

~S~

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 02:33 PM

Thanks, Max. I knew you'd come through on this!

As for "how can we share the joke threads if they're in BS?", easy enough, just give a link to whoever you want to share it with. Pretty easy, it just needs a fraction more effort and a fraction more motivation to take that effort..

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:19 PM

geez, I didn's see that yesterday...too much merlot....how can we share the joke threads if they're in BS?

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 12:18 AM

We need to give Max a drum.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 12:12 AM

If you mouse over it, you get the choices.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 12:08 AM

In right side of the dark blue box right above the window to write messages.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 11:47 PM

all I see is the square next to RSS feed.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Janie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 11:36 PM

Thanks Max.

For all of it!

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Max
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 11:30 PM

I made it smaller and out of the way a bit. See the orange square with a plus sign? That's it. It is also now not available for BS threads.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 11:23 PM

What happened to "share this thread?"

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:35 PM

Keep it, and review it again in 6 months time after people have used it and understand it and are then in a position to discuss it, instead of speculating, sometimes without even knowing much about what they are speculating on.

Although I still think Mudcat is a great site I have been spending less and less time on it because I have been getting tired of seeing what appears to me to be an ever smaller number of the same old contributors voicing their opinions. All very comforting to themselves, but often boring. I'd like to see some fresh input, preferably from younger people. I get the impression that many of the more established 'catters fear this kind of input, and what it may result in. Well, this week alone I've seen as much asinine waste of bandwidth contributed by established 'catters to BS as could be found anywhere on the Internet.

I thought Uncle Phil above put it very well, as did Virginia Tam, and I agree (98%) with Max. I recall the lack of enthusiasm when I first suggested creating a Wikipedia article for Mudcat, and some negative feedback after I did so (with a few notable exceptions in both cases). I think Max is doing a good job - keep up the good work and many thanks!

Don

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:12 PM

Which you have certainly earned!

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Max
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 11:55 AM

I'd just as soon get rid of my son as I would the data from 13 years of mudcat.org. And the only one I would consider handing off to would be an academic institution willing to trade it for an honorary PhD in ethnomusicology.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM

You know Jeri, the thing that is so annoying about you is that you are so insightful and adult in your thinking:>)

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:32 PM

"and what individuality Mudcat had, is fast disappearing in a plethora of gimmicks."

Eh? Well, I may be relatively new here, but I think that's a tad strong :)
As a new singer of traditional songs, if I search for a song, I find a bunch of threads with all kinds of material that's been submitted by all kinds of people over the years.

The problem is IMO (much as the management might find it a pain in the arse), that the grumpiest awld beggars, are also the ones who contribute the real gold - or at least so it seems to me. If you put a muzzle on them, then you'll be left with routine toilet banter in BS, and little else of any actual musical merit.

What concerns me is that if the management is indeed in danger of getting tired of the show - as suggested, the vast current archive of contributions made by worthy academic minded contributors over the years, might be insecure. That would be a great shame.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 03:34 PM

Well as far as I'm concerned, Mudcat is now just another clone website, with the Digital Tradition as the only thing to differentiate it.
There are scads of looky likey sites on the internet, and what individuality Mudcat had, is fast disappearing in a plethora of gimmicks.
Long live Numachi!

So shoot me.

JM

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:46 PM

Crow Sister, the problem with the Willie Wonka bad people eliminator dealie is that we'd all be out at some point and nobody would win. We could have some fun discussing what our individual punishments might be... or not.

I like the whole Star Trek way of complaining/suggesting/improving: people get to voice their opinions respectfully, then when the Captain makes a decision, they support him. If the implemented plan has problems, they then look at how to make the Captain's plan work. We hit snags here, and it's too easy to want to completely scrap the Captain's plan. Instead of 'how do we fix this' we jump in with 'here's what I think we should do INSTEAD'.

I admit I can voice the same opinion (or a similar one) a few times, but I usually give it a year or several in between. I think it's probably better (for me), to just back off for a bit and let those major complaints turn into slight annoyances with some distance-enhanced perspective.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:56 AM

Well, I doubt MudFunds are flush enough for Mai Tais, but do they have the little umbrellas? I bet those can be afforded.

~Susan

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 09:15 AM

Dani, I share that sentiment, Max can definitely have a Mai-Tai (whatever that is) on me any time!!! In fact, if he ever makes it across the pond I'll buy him 2 *grin* Goodness knows he deserves a break!

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 07:43 AM

Max, you warm my heart. I hope that any money that ever came from me you DO spend on mai-tais and happy endings. Life gets complicated when you get old/er, but if you do it right, it just keeps getting better and better.

Dani

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:43 AM

Hehe! Total random thoughts... I have visions of a Willy Wonka style 'golden ticket' scenario now at MC. Where all the naughty boys and girls are eliminated through moral trials, and only little Charlie Bucket is good enough to inherit the chocolate factory!
If Max is Wonka, I guess it's obvious who Grandpa Joe is..
And the rest of us must be Umpa-lumpas.

I probably aught to take my tablets now.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:28 AM

"Max is truly the One"

Cripes, he's finally come back? Damn it, where did I leave that alabaster jar? ;-)

So anyway, if Max "loses interest" as he's suggesting he might be below, what options are there for turning this great archive with all the material in it that has been submitted to the forum by the membership over the years, over to another caretaker for the site, or indeed better-still, an appropriate organisation?

Surely there would be plenty of takers out there, willing to adopt it if Max lost interest rather than him just err 'existentialising' it all...? It'd be criminal to just dump all the research materials so many people have invested time in sharing, simply because the present management became disinterested in it, or perhaps incapable of maintaining it, due to other commitments.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:44 PM

"Every day, all day on every computer I own is a constant stream of every message that is posted to every thread."

I'm now imagining the Mudcat version of the Matrix, with every message flashing across a screen like the code for the Program. Max is truly the One because he can do shit nobody else can do.

There is no spoon.
There is no spoon?
Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
(It's kinda like that with a lot of things around here: it's not so much about what other people say as it is about our own reactions.)

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:02 PM

Hip Hop??? That's not where you find prostitutes with a heart of gold. ....you must have gotten lost at some 'folk' event... *grin*

and you may ignore all the telepathic messages I have sent you....

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: maeve
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM

Thank you, Max.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Max
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:08 PM

It is impossible to please everyone. When we discuss it, it immediately becomes overwhelming and unmanageable. Too many members with too many opposing needs and desires. I have 224 PMs currently, 87% of which are suggestions, demands and desires, each of which are the opposite of the next. You may discuss it all you like, but I am but one man. Reading it all would take a lifetime, let alone implementing any of it.

Please know that I am trying.

I am trying to settle disputes, quell cantankerous members, deal with the BNP, find a balance of UK and US, find a balance with Vols, improve the technology, upgrade the server, speed the search, update the DigiTrad, add your photos, delete your photos, find the CD you sent me in 1998, fix your spelling errors, answering your pm's, watching threads, fending off publishing companies, consulting with Vols, answering emails (5,781 in Oct), etc and so on.

If you don't see me posting here, you assume I am off on a tropical island spending mudcat contributions on Mai Tai's and happy endings. Lets just say that I am here a lot more than you may be aware and I've only spent mudcat money on a prostitute once, and that was because she had a heart of gold.

Every day, all day on every computer I own is a constant stream of every message that is posted to every thread. Can I read all of it? No. I have a job, and kids, and a beagle. Plus, I'm actually only into Hip Hop music.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:14 PM

And there is nothing to stop people making suggestions or discussing ideas through PMs.

There has often been a tendency for discussions about the Mudcat to become great stamping grounds for trolls of one kind and another. It's not unreasonable for Max and Co to try to head that kind of thing off.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:26 PM

Good points, Bill. I should have said certain Mudcat policies, etc.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM

"It does seem that not being able to give dissenting feedback or criticism is a bit autocratic, I think...."

Your post, and the one that inspired it, were not deleted], were they?
Mudcat has many many threads discussing, debating and critiquing policy. Management always has the option to decide when discussing, debating and critiquing become distracting and haranguing and to limit such things. It would never work without SOME controls.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:18 AM

Speaking as a clone, I was told public discussion of Mudcat policy was not allowed for certain reasons which it is not my place to say. As far as I know, that came from Max, through Joe.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:02 AM

"But the overall feeling I get is that it's a no no for members to engage in public analyzing/discussing and sharing suggestions about what might make Mudcat a better place for all. My sense is that to do so means that you become labeled a trouble maker. I think this is a big mistake."

I believe this was decided arbitrarily by the clones and had nothing to do with Max. It does seem that not being able to give dissenting feedback or criticism is a bit autocratic, I think...

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:34 AM

"But most African American songs end on down notes, don't they?"

Do they? I've never thought about whether that's the case for any songs. It might make for an interesting thread...

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:26 AM

Hello, Jack. I don't know the answer to your question. Perhaps there are statistics for those Share The Thread listings that give a breakdown by race/ethnicity (by "ethnicity" I mean the USA definition of Latino/Hispanic).

When I wrote that post I was thinking of targeted contacts with the owners/moderators of certain blogs and discussion forums that have a high readership/participation of People of Color. And I was also thinking about targeted contact with owners/moderators of identified blogs that have a high readership/participation of other populations who might be interested in knowing about and/or participating in or increasing their participation in Mudcat. Those targeted contacts could be made by Max and/or moderators and/or members they designate and/or any other members with or without prior knowledge of Max or the moderators (I'm not sure which is best. Maybe it depends on the blog/forum which is contacted).

But it seems to me that those targeted contacts would be best received if they were formally directed to the owners/moderators of specific blogs and not to the readership of those sites. And it seems to me that whoever is contacting those blogs should have examples in mind of the kinds of Mudcat threads that may be of particular interest to those blogs members/or core readership. For instance (to use three of the Mudcat threads that I started) it would be interesting to see if any blogs for Black Britons (my apologies if that's not the correct referent) would be interested in their members participating in the discussion on the Mudcat thread about Black Britons & Folk Music? and on the Mudcat thread BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons. And it seems to me that religious (Christain and otherwise) with Black membership and/or with members/readers of any other races/ethnicities might be interested in posting to a thread like Religious Songs That Speak To You.
   
Furthermore, because we want to attract and keep new members, it seems to me that Max and the moderators might want to revisit the idea of rewriting or greatly revising Mudcat's Frequently Asked Questions page (which operates as a thread which I think is part of what makes it so complicated and user/unfriendly).

And it also seems to me that Max and the moderators might want to revisit the idea of having at least one above the line meta thread at a time in which members (and maybe also guests)could share ideas and concerns about the Mudcat community. Maybe one of the reasons why some people have left Mudcat is because there are only sporadic administrative sanctioned opportunities to discuss the "state of the Mudcat union" and share ideas about possible improvements to this community with the belief that our opinions and concerns won't be brushed aside or be seen as trouble making.

The opinions and concerns that members have posted in this thread about the Share This Thread feature being in the BS threads-which I agree with-and Max's almost immediate response to those concerns is one notable exception to this statement. And I'm sure there are other examples that are exceptions to that statement. But the overall feeling I get is that it's a no no for members to engage in public analyzing/discussing and sharing suggestions about what might make Mudcat a better place for all. My sense is that to do so means that you become labeled a trouble maker. I think this is a big mistake.

I wish I could end this post on an up note. But most African American songs end on down notes, don't they? Well, at least I can say

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

Why "share this thread" can help.

Most (all?) of my friends on Facebook are folkies. Some are on Mudcat and some aren't. While they may not be interested in the drama here of perhaps even much of the music discussion, they may be interested in certain threads. I don't know Twitter or MySpace or the other social networking sites very well, but I would assume you share only with those who are already connected to you, unlike with Google searches.

And Max, I didn't roll my eyes once. I did sorta think I knew who said "If you don't make mistakes once in a while, you are clearly not trying hard enough", but a lot of wise guys...er, men...uh, PEOPLE could have said that.

Thanks for writing. You should think about sending that whole article off to Sing Out!, Max.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:35 PM

Azizi - are any of the services addthis offers particularly popular with Black people? I know nothing at all about 95% of them.

If any are, then you have a good point.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Janie
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:32 PM

I have no discomfort at all with the very easy sharing of the music threads this feature allows, and the "share this song" feature for the DT is "the 'Cat's meow!"

I'm glad you are reconsidering the feature with the BS threads.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:56 PM

...I am displeased at our inbred dogma, bored with the same old fights, and missing some friends that have left...

Same here.

Thanks for explaining...it's ALWAYS good to hear from you, Max.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

I'm not really worried about this because it doesn't change anything. It has always been possible to "share" a thread, simply by copying and pasting a link. Now it's a little easier, that's all.

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:48 PM

I keep thinking about a man I knew who had a party in his flat and someone went down to the local pub and told everyone it was openhouse, and they completely trashed the place...

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:15 PM

So Max, should we start calling you Max "Oppenheimer" Spiegal from now on? hahahahaha

I like the idea so far...if you would add a delete button....and more editing capabilities...

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 12:21 PM

Max, I may be willing to trust YOU, but that does not make me willing to trust every single user of Amen Me!, BallHype, Connotea, DotNetKicks, Edelight, Fresqui, Gacetilla, Hipstr, InvestorLinks, Jamespot, kIRTSY, Laaikit, and Mister Wong?

Do YOU know the implications of sharing with each and every one of those? (One in the list I did try, since I could at least understand what its name meant, turned out to be a scarily insecure Turkish language version of Twitter).

Something to think about: The Slashdot effect

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 12:15 PM

Thank you Max for listening and for the very detailed posting.

Rog

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: DebC
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:38 AM

Thanks, Max.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:17 AM

**thinking about all this**

(I thought before I made my other posts, also...just need to do some more)

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:28 AM

Max, I trust YOU. What I do not trust (and hope you will continue to research before adding more of it) is Big Bidness. It will bite you in the butt and it will chomp off things you care most about. I just think that the purported ways "social networking" will help the Mudcat will turn out to help only Big Bidness in the end. It's not fear of loss of control, or fear of most anything. It's a gut reaction about which way is Up.

~Susan

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:19 AM

First, I agree with the BS threads issue, I will work on removing it from there.

Trust rewarded! Thanks for listening Max. (And as always, thanks for the Mudcat.)

Subject: RE: 'Share this thread'?
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:17 AM

I believe that history is the story of the rich white man. I believe that Folk is the story of the rest of us. Folk is all of us, of which I am but one. All of us.
-Max

Because I have come to know you, Max, through this forum and through your responses to my occassional pms, I believe that when you wrote that first sentence, you meant that the victors write history the way they want it to be known, and since "rich white men" have been the victors for much of written history, they have written history to center around them. This one sided depiction of history is not the history I want to read more about. Nor is White people's Folk music the only Folk music that I want to learn about and post about on Mudcat or anywhere else.

And because I have come to know you, Max, through this forum and through your responses to my occassional pms, when you wrote that "Folk is the story of the rest of us. Folk is all of us, of which I am but one. All of" I believe that you meant that Mudcat should broaden its community to include discussions of the folk music of People of Color with actual People of Color. What a concept!

I have learned a lot about spirituals, and blues, and shanties, and other types of Black music from people who have posted to this forum. But to paraphrase Fannie Lou Hammer, I am sick and tired of being sick and tired of being just about the only self-acknowledged Person of Color who posts to Mudcat's music/cultural threads and the BS threads. I'd love it if Mudcat had more self-identified and publicly self-acknowledged People of Color who would post about various types of music and who also would post to those BS threads which are constantly talking about race and racial issues. And yes, I have tried to interest other People of Color in this forum.

I have suggested in other posts that Mudcat engage in targeted recruitment of People of Color at forums which predominately have posters who are People of Color. I have posted links to certain Mudcat threads on several of those forums and I have posted numerous links on my website (which does not necessarily predominately have readers who are People of Color). To my knowledge, only one person joined Mudcat as a result of those postings (Quakoo from Ghana) who unfortunately hasn't posted on Mudcat for a while.

I very much want to see a consistent number of People of Color posting on Mudcat's music threads and Mudcat's BS threads-and not just about posting about issues of race and racism. I'm concerned that People of Color might read your words that I quoted Max and come away with what I believe is the wrong conclusion- that you feel that Mudcat should be a place for White people to talk about their (White People's) music and People of Color's music and that Mudcat should be a place for White people to talk in the BS threads about their (White people's) take on Black people and on other People of Color. I believe that's what Mudcat is now, but I hope it becomes more than that. I think you want Mudcat to be a forum for all people too, Max.

With the best of intentions, I'm breaking my self-imposed hiatus to write this on the public forum, Max, so that your words aren't misconstrued as they are preserved on the Internet.