Sting calls X Factor Karaoke

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 03:23 PM

Of course Louis Armstrong crafted the first magical Horse Folk-Patronus

Oh yes!!!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

Evil Flying Folk Pigs?
Can I get some to stick over my fireplace?
Of course Louis Armstrong crafted the first magical Horse Folk-Patronus, though I think mine is possibly an Otter, or maybe a Crow - I'm yet to discover for sure.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

lively, musicians joining in together, spontaneous harmonising, original material, daft parodies on keyboards, group a'capella trad. songs, solo unacompannied trad., blues, spirituals etc.

Tread carefully, CS - it's that sort of talk that has the Folk Dementors swooping around intent on sucking out soul and souls. Needs must I keep practising my Patronus...

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 12:22 PM

Crow sister, you're right about singarounds and sessions, but many venues now book a karaoke instead of live entertainment because it's cheaper and it sells more beer. I wasn't really talking about folk music, although I completely agree with Suibhne's comment on 'tradition'.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 12:08 PM

"So is what happens at in folk clubs & singarounds - often cheesier, and invariably more formulaic."

Yes, and I've seen that too, tho' I didn't want to be the first to say it considering the monstrous battles such statements appear to provoke here! ;-)

However, having also been to a few of the sessions that Melodeonboy attends, I've also been spoiled by quite the opposite of such a scenario. Just as he describes it: lively, musicians joining in together, spontaneous harmonising, original material, daft parodies on keyboards, group a'capella trad. songs, solo unacompannied trad., blues, spirituals etc.
So I think he's quite right, in as much as there's an extremely restricted scope for either individual or group musical creativity involved. However much fun it might be, Karaoke is still to music making, what Ladybird books are to reading. And entertaining as it can be for a bit, it'd probably become frustrating after a while. Same as Mum shopping at Iceland, initially exciting goodies can start to make you feel a bit squiffy - especially after a few too many prawn puffs and Findus crispy pancakes..

That's not to knock it tho', as I think it's a great thing that people just want to get up and entertain each other - which is certainly in the perennial spirit of people and indeed of 'folk'. It's just got an inbuilt rigidly fixed ceiling of potential, which no real instrument or free voice has.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 11:21 AM

Karaoke may indeed be cheesy and formulaic

So is what happens at in folk clubs & singarounds - often cheesier, and invariably more formulaic. We've had some vivid testimonies to the contrary on this thread, but in the end it all comes down to whatever floats your boat. The only traditional thing about music is that it's something we've been doing for the last 50,000 years and as long as people are engaging with it on whatever level then that's okay by me.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:59 AM

"I will never condone something which puts fellow musicians out of work."

Singarounds & Sessions? (do hope me singing a couple of folk songs last time we met in the upstairs function room, didn't put any professional performers out of a job!)

Singarounds & Sessions are amateurs getting up and doing it for themselves. Karaoke may indeed be cheesy and formulaic, but ordinary non-musicians who wouldn't otherwise 'have a go', do it for a bit of fun and camaraderie, and that's all.

I think that's the "spirit" of folk music anyway, even if the creative options and results are more limited.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:24 PM

Oooo Eric Burdon... swoooon..........

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

Maybe I should explain my description of karaoke as 'detestable'. It was no more than a personal opinion based on a single experience of the real thing, and not intended to carry any weight outside its context. I simply did not enjoy it.

However, on principle I will never condone something which puts fellow musicians out of work. I feel the same way about the use of backing-tracks, and after many years supporting the MU's 'Keep Music Live' campaign against the public use of recorded dance music I left in disgust when they allowed DJs to join.

Here endeth Smokey's 'Jobs for Musicians' campaign..

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Smedley
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:57 AM

If anyone is interested enough in the Simon Cowell/X-Factor phenomenon to read further, look at this website:

http://www.popjustice.com/

- in particular the article titled "Subtle hints....." a little way down the page.

This site is written by someone who is as passionate about pop as Mudcatters are about folk. It's instructive. And funny.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:51 AM

"A stunningly original insight from Sting, surely a breakthrough moment in critical thought & indubitably the first time anyone has ever reached those conclusions.

Coming soon: Sting identifies the Pope as a Catholic! Sting's groundbreaking discovery that bears poop in the woods!!"

C'mon. I bet you got a hangover.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:45 AM

Well I want this class traditional collection for Christmas, surely a folk essential?
Irish Karaoke Classics!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: melodeonboy
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:09 AM

"The folk singaround is no better or worse than the karaoke night. Surely both serve the same purpose: people getting together to sing songs they like and to enjoy themselves."

On a very basic level, yes. But I want more than to "sing songs that I like".

The fortnightly folk nights that I help run provide a meeting place for a wide variety of singers and musicians as well as audience. At these sessions I can hear original material, non-original material that singers/ musicians have made their own and songs and tunes that I haven't heard before (and might wish to do myself). I can sing and play along with others using my own harmonies and musical accompaniment. This is what I'd describe as a creative environment, people constantly engaging with each other, learning from each other and sharing ideas. I've learnt a lot from these sessions, and have consequently improved significantly as both singer and musician. And apart from anything else, it's bloody good fun! Not a po-face in the house!

On the other hand, standing on a stage with a microphone in my hand, imitating something that I've supposedly seen on a music video, recreating every burp, fart, "oooh" and movement would be about as interesting for me as watching paint dry. There is no musical space or freedom; no opportunity to create; no way I could make the song my own. For me, karaoke is the hand of death musically. Everything is pre-determined, the script is already written, the space for creativity non-existent. It goes no further than cliche.

I therefore do not accept the notion that there is no qualitative difference between a singaround and a karaoke session.

(This is not to say that every folk club or session is as good as the one I refer to above. I've been to some pretty dire ones that I'd not wish to revisit!)

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:53 AM

Watch out SO'P, or you're going to get a note from Teech!

I'm off for a smoke behind the bike sheds. See you there!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:48 AM

I find it ironic that you used your 3-minutes of Free Thinking in an attempt to attempt to repress Free Thinking. Equally ironic as the shores of the Tyne have acted as a Cultural Interface for millennia, where indeed my own great-grandfather arrived from Co. Cork to establish his tailor shop on The Castle Garth Stairs - as remembered in the old Newcastle folk son ...the Quayside for sailors, A U Hinney burd / the Castle Garth for tailors, A U A.... In the days of yore the blues arrived & found a home in Newcastle; it was taken home by a young Geordie by the name of Eric Burdon who was one of the finest. One of his band mates, Chas Chandler, brought home a young blues singer and guitarist by the name Jimi Hendrix who briefly made his home in 2nd Avenue in Heaton causing quite a stir and recognising that Durham was somehow fairyland. Celebrate the realities, WAV - it's a world of wonders & no mistake!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:39 AM

I'd just like to say "Bum" at this point - or maybe even "Bums".
Both are good by me, feel free everyone to be insulted by whichever you prefer.

Watch out SO'P, or you're going to get a note from Teech!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:31 AM

During the BBC's "Free Thinking" season at the Sage, I got 3 minutes to present a talk called "If you're not American, don't Americanise - for the love of our world being multicultural." It was recorded, I'm told it may be broadcast early in the new year, and I'll try and remember to let you know, S.

P.S: I quickly mentioned the difference between being anti-American and anti-Americansiation, of course.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:26 AM

You silly buggers, WAV has achieved what he set out to do and nothing more, get you talking about him again, good or bad makes no difference as long as it's him.

So fuck?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:22 AM

Just answer the fffffing question, WAV. What does it matter if a person chooses to sing in a different accent? After all, you are a Naturalised Australian who attempts to sing in an accent that is most certainly not your own - much less the songs you attempt to sing, or else the culture with which you attempt, however so bizarrely at times, to assimilate yourself. One would think that your much publicised anthropological training would have given you a fascination in human culture as being the things that people actually do, rather than the things you think (for whatever crazy) that they ought to be doing. I'm in this latter school myself - it's called The Live and Let Live School of Living which is founded on the ideal of the Human Individual being free to do whatever they are moved to do and for culture to be a reflection of this, rather than the other way around, which isn't very good at all. You are one such individual, WAV - enjoy your freedoms in the name of the greater freedom of all!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:22 AM

You silly buggers, WAV has achieved what he set out to do and nothing more, get you talking about him again, good or bad makes no difference as long as it's him.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:07 AM

You're in fffffine form today, S.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:02 AM

From the bits of karaoke I've seen on TV here in England, it's always American pop and rock songs that are being performed. E.g., during "Around the World in 80 Days" (BBC), the English newsreader, whilst aboard a ship, sang an American rock song in an American accent.

So fuck?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:53 AM

I believe that karaoke in the form we now know it actually originated in Japan and that the word Karaoke itself was originally Japanese.

So fuck?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:52 AM

From the bits of karaoke I've seen on TV here in England, it's always American pop and rock songs that are being performed. E.g., during "Around the World in 80 Days" (BBC), the English newsreader, whilst aboard a ship, sang an American rock song in an American accent.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:15 AM

I'm with SO'P and Crowsis: of course X Factor is an abomination, but it ill behoves (god I love that expression!) folkies to use it to attack the music of the people by the people for the people that is karaoke.

The folk singaround is no better or worse than the karaoke night. Surely both serve the same purpose: people getting together to sing songs they like and to enjoy themselves.

Neither serve a higher purpose or have an innate superiority. 'Sall a matter of personal taste.

'Snot like singarounds are about preservation or unbroken continuing traditions or anything so lofty, is it?

Innit though?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

"the word Karaoke itself was originally Japanese."

Yeppers, just like Vindaloo comes from India..
Kurryoke of course, is quite definitely quintessentially English..

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Lox
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 05:53 PM

Tootler - 100%

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM

I believe that karaoke in the form we now know it actually originated in Japan and that the word Karaoke itself was originally Japanese.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:25 PM

Karaoke - if it's good enough for as a weather beaten an old traddy as Sailor Ron then that's enough of a stamp of approval as we need!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:57 AM

Perhaps to some extent, Stu - but I have seen bits of karaoke on TV, over the years.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: s&r
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:53 AM

My daughter sings karaoke - very well. She also sings jazz, pop, rock, folk, lullabies children's songs. She writes tunes and lyrics at a more than competent level and plays guitar.

I would hate to try to explain this thread to her.

I have been to karaoke venues; I have run karaokes in prisons. Not my first choice but not my worst choice.

Music is music. The more it is live the better.

WAV not having seen karaoke invalidates your understanding

Stu

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:43 AM

As an English repatriate, I've enjoyed several English folk clubs and have never been to a karaoke; and, if I ever VISIT Japan, I'll avoid karaoke in Tokyo and head for a Japanese tea ceremony/chanoyu in Kyoto.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: GUEST,Big Elk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:09 AM

When Skiffle started the world was earmarked for demolition.

When punk started it was the end of civilisation.

When Tecno arrived it was devastation

Guitar Hero arrived it was an evil manifestation

Is Simon Cowell really the "Dark Lord of The Apocalypse".

The easiest thing in the world is to sit on the side lines and sneer. X Factor is about Pop Music, an idiom where performers are managed, groomed and frequently manufactured. As Walsh and Cowell are fantastically successful at what they do they are worth listening to.

I seem to remember the police being held on a tight leash by Stuart Copeland's Dad. They were styled crimped and pimped and forced to play pop and not Jazz, back in 1979, when they started out.

Perhaps the biggest thing folk has over pop, is the concept of singers nights and sessions where people can learn, get involved, grow and serve an apprenticeship. However the grey brigade sit and tut if anyone gets a note wrong or approaches a tune from a different angle, so its still hard even for folk to be inclusive. Let us not deceive ourselves most sessions or clubs have the deluded who think they are good when they are anything deeply flawed.

Anything, I repeat anything that gets anyone up of their backsides and gets them singing and playing is to be applauded. I can think of many established "Folk " people who came up through Skiffle, Punk, Techno and pop.

I wait to see if Sting accepts Simon Cowell's invitation to be a guest on the show

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:00 AM

I am only speaking of the Folk Clubs I've been to, but in 35 years of attending any amount of them I think I'm well acquainted with the limits of The Revival and the various delusions going down as a consequence - delusions which, I might add, I've only got a problem with if they get passed off as being somehow superior to more natural forms of popular cultural expression of which Karaoke is but one of the more recent manifestations. Sing your Child Ballads and 1954 Approved Folk Songs (as I do myself) - just don't go thinking that what you are doing is any way, shape or form more Traditional or indeed Worthy than what goes on at your local on Karaoke night.

The X-Factor manipulates this natural quality of human musicality by feeding on the equally natural emotions of both performer and audience alike; by offering a fast-track to celebrity status it perverts something which is fundamental to our humanity.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:02 AM

"Folk Clubs tend to be....."

I'm afraid you can only speak for the ones you've been to, not for the ones I go to.

Ease off on the inverted snobbery!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:53 AM

Really??? Well, I think it's rather different from the ones that I go to!

I don't doubt it - seeing as Folk Clubs tend to be full of folk-pig pedants so hung up on a precious sense of cultural superiority that they regard what they do as some form of Sacred Holy Communion rather than just cutting loose, getting pissed and having a ball. I'm as guilty as anyone in this respect, but I'm well aware of the bullshit going down here.

The problem with X-Factor is not the people taking part, it's the way their hopes are manipulated by way of a Sex Olympics spectacle.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:45 AM

Careful, CS - or the Folk Pigs will raid the party and smash the place up for being so very detestable! Thing is, lots of Folk Singers I've heard sing to their own inner backing tracks which only they might hear as they replicate their favourite songs & singers from their favourite albums in a Stars-in-Their-Eyes style come-all-ye. And tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be - Peter Bellamy being Harry Cox! We all have our heroes, do we not?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:39 AM

"It's no different to what happens in a folk club or singaround..."

Really??? Well, I think it's rather different from the ones that I go to!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:30 AM

I've done Christmas Karaoke round friends houses when everyone is totally smashed at very silly O Clock. It's a real hoot, that's why people love it. Down the road there's even a pub that have a regular Kurryoke Night! And with reference to the constant 'English insecurity' threads that do the rounds here, not only is it IMO an example of ongoing 'folk process' or wotnot, it also sounds to me quite the most Englishy innovation imaginable.. Gotta love the bastard children of English culture.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 04:51 AM

I must admit to being very alarmed at Karaoke being called detestable on a folk forum. It's no different to what happens in a folk club or singaround as passionate amateurs cover their favourite songs in a state of (invariably inebriated) un-selfconsciousness. This is what people have been doing in public houses since the first ever landlord e'er tapped a barrel, and remains a regular feature of folk-life to this day - everyday people singing songs they know and love. What's the problem?

Soon enough, no doubt, Karaoke punters will be singing the real folk songs from Sting's latest album and in so doing will be returning them to a more venerable tradition than that which Wor Gordon got them from in the first place.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:46 PM

I agree with Richard Thompson, who called it 'crap' several times in a recent interview. Detestable though it is, karaoke at least has the decency not to pretend to be quality entertainment.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM

Second pint from me, Will.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:55 AM

Cheers SC - mine's a pint of Norman Conquest - winter-style dark beer, 5% ABV, nice and nutty!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:33 AM

It wouldn't matter to me if the whole of the UK watched the X Factor. I still think it's crap. It's also possible to be critical without sneering.

Mr Fly, I've just ordered you a virtual pint!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Marje
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:00 AM

And if Simon Cowell were to hold his auditions in the upstairs room of a backstreet pub, while folk clubs and sessions were broadcast on Saturday night television, the balance of public attention might shift somewhat. It might even inspire us all to polish up our act.

But I also have to say that I have, quite recently, seen a couple of club floor spots that were every bit as breathtakingly bad, and the performers every bit as deluded, as the early rounds of X-factor.

Marje

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:48 AM

It wouldn't matter to me if the whole of the UK watched the X Factor. I still think it's crap. It's also possible to be critical without sneering.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:19 AM

Yeah... The facts bear it out.

The millions of people who crowd out folk clubs, versus the couple of dozen who watch X Factor....

Enjoy your music, even agree with His Stinginess, but sneering is kettle calling of the funniest order...

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:57 AM

Talent competitions on radio and TV have been around for a long, long time. Those of you of a certain age, like me will remember the "Carrol Levis Discovery Show" on the BBC in the 1950s - a later version of which was "Opportunity Knocks" Hughie Green) - and then there was "Thank Your Lucky Stars".

Both the Caroll Levis and Hughie Green shows were cash-spinning opportunities for the two presenters, with tie-in contracts waiting for the ultimate winners. Some years ago, I toured for a bit with a very talented singer and nice chap called Bernie Flint - winner of Opportunity Knocks. Bernie and his equally talented brother Mike got lots of work doing social clubs, gold clubs, etc. - but Bernie was always remembered for just the one song from the Opportunity Knocks programme ("I Don't Want To Put A Hold On You"). And he was one of the lucky ones who made a reasonable career from the talent show opportunity.

Lord knows what happens to all the rest. At least these old shows weren't quite as ghastly as the X-Factor.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: mandotim
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:38 AM

Hi Sal; I can't speak for all schools, but it's much too general to just refer to 'schools' in this context. Painsley School, where both my daughters went up to age 16, has open access to the music rooms for any pupil who is interested, and actively encourages lunchtime and after school music making. My younger daughter spent a lot of time playing piano for unamplified vocalists and singing herself. Music made by pupils was part of every assembly, and the school shows were done without any taped music whatsoever. This included the best amateur performance of the notoriously difficult Les Miserables I've ever heard, with a pit band of pupils to match any I've heard in the professional theatre, and some serious voices in the lead roles. The young man who sang the role of Valjean would have graced the West End stage, both as an actor and singer. The school has 850 pupils, and boasts a 100 piece orchestra, a 100-strong main choir, a male voice choir, a barbers shop group, a traditional music group playing Celtic stuff, a wind band, a jazz big band, any number of rock bands and even a parents ensemble. The Christmas concerts involved virtually the whole school, and were just brilliant events.
Much of this depends on the Headteacher, and the quality of the music department staff. Government education policy has very little effect; some schools will always do the minimum, and some will stretch the boundaries, like Painsley. Oh, and Painsley is not some kind of Performing Arts academy; it's a local comprehensive school with specialist status; as a Science specialist!
Painsley justified the huge time and effort they put into all this by making the link between the confidence to perform and the confidence you need as an adult in other areas of life, and that makes sense to me.
The other area for encouragement (for me) is folk sessions. Check out the average age next time you are in a session. Are we folkies doing enough?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:08 AM

Live unplugged performance should be encouraged in schools. Lunch time singarounds and music sessions. Reintroduce chorus songs etc. Make it part of the music lessons. The 'traditional' songs and the art of singing without a mic and without backing tracks, are being lost.   
Sal

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:57 PM

My only comment is that whatever talent the auditionees have is quickly diluted to the levels of mediocrity that is expected of the 'record industry'.

At a glance there seems to be a racism debate. I have only glanced at the thread 2 minutes ago.... what the **** has it got to do with the topic?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:39 PM

Suibhne, mandotim, and Lox, my fellow travellers on the wild world of WAV. WAV I have noted, numerous times to you in the past, to which I will use the phrase ad nauseum to MY OWN postings to your various threads that as Lox notes above-rock is, in a purely musical anthropological sense, NOT from America. It is an amalgamation of many styles...which each had their own root elsewhere. Travelling in 40 countries has nothing to do with it. I could use many examples here, but the most succinct story I can relate is when John Lee Hooker heard the late great Ali Farka Toure for the first time. He said something like, hey man-that guys ripping us off. To which someone said to Hooker-no-you're ripping him off!! Because WAV wants everything in a nice tidy little box, Catalan singers only singing their native tongue, Sardinians, Bulgarians, and Polynesians doing the same thing, with no pollinization allowed, he's not likely to understand that point, though the rest of you probably do. Mandotim, your as likely to get a straight answer to WAV as I am to this question...WAV-so what about Sting's frequent guest contributor on several albums...Kathryn Tickell? Oh dear-whatever should us Americans think of Northumbrian pipes on a "rock" song. Shudder. I shall never listen to rock again...its been contaminated by "that" English instrument. Pardon me...I think i need a moment

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 02:13 PM

Lots of words in my/"WAVists" mouth/s here (again) S. ...but at least you've finally dropped the "xenophobic" idea - quite ridiculous as I've enjoyed travelling, on a shoestring, through some 40 countries, etc.

And (again) I offer this as an example of the sort of thing I like - http://www.llangollen2009.com/

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:51 PM

For those here genuinely baffled by WAV's somewhat absurd pronouncements above, allow me to re-post this morning's little attempt at understanding his philosphy...

WAVism for Beginniners

WAVism is a philosophy of a Totalitarian World Order founded on the idea that the world has to be somehow Nice and Multicultural and that the only way to achieve this is to segregate all nations and ethnicities in a programme of mass repatriation and ethnic cleansing overseen by a New World Order WAVists refer to as The United Nations With Greater Powers. Though to the rational mind WAVism is the stuff of dystopian sci-fi, the WAVist genuinely feels WAVism represents the best way forward for Humanity, complete with an emphasis on National Folk Music and Music as a National Phenomenon Within Fixed Boundaries.

In a WAVist World, only Americans will be allowed to play rock music, and the only music English people will allowed to play is Our Own Good Folk Music and, possibly, Classical Music by English Composers, though how WAVists square this with the essentially non-English nature of Classical Music from the 10th Century onwards hasn't as yet been made clear. If WAVists accept English classical composers, then why not English rock composers? And what of such distinctly non-American popular musical phenomena as Krautrock? And what of the many English rock musicians who have been more influenced by Krautrock than American rock, yet have still managed to create a uniquely English rock music (i.e Joy Division) which then becomes a major influence back in America where it supposedly all began? Indeed, the unravelling of millennia of ethnic and cultural migrations, diaspora, invasion and cross-fertilisation is but one of the problems the WAVist faces when deciding upon their New World Order - let alone the inevitability of Near Total Dissidence, but people have been forced to comply at gunpoint before, so why not again? It's never been achieved on a global scale before, but there is a first time for everything!

So this is the absolute vision of WAVism's Nice Multicultural World, though what is particularly Nice about is another thing that hasn't, as yet, been made clear, especially given the pragmatics of making such a Global Totalitarianism a reality. Look at the human cost of Partition in India, which would be multiplied a million-fold at least in the ensuing migrations as populations are torn apart and people are forced to repatriate to the country of their ethnic (if not individual) origin. Still, such a holocaust would significantly reduce the Global Population - something else the WAVist has concerns about, as evident in their various Eugenic Asides which crop up every now and then. Still, when all is sorted out we will have that Nice Multicultural Wav-World with each ethnically cleansed Nation State devoted to its Indigenous Folk Culture, and policed by a Stronger UN to make sure it stays that way - there will be no Ethnic Contaminations or Cultural Recalcitrance, there will be no creativity or individualism, and, no doubt, the Human Genome will be modified to make sure that there will be no further developments; and that it will remain this way forever and ever and ever and ever...

Might it be at last emerging that WAV isn't xenophobic as such, rather anthrophobic, if there is such a thing - a fear of the actualities and realities of the human condition which seem to run pretty deep...

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: matt milton
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:49 AM

oh come off it - it's not like if all practictioners of British folk music were to suddenly start making American folk music they'd be magically successful overnight.

Pop music has generally been a back-and-forth across the Atlantic since the 1960s. Since the 1980s it's been more cosmopolitan. I like good pop music.

Traditional/folk music just isn't as popular as pop. Got nothing to do with nationality. It's no different from other niche musics in that respect, no different from jazz or calypso or grime or death metal.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:22 AM

It's surely a shame that, in England e.g., those who are good at another culture/promoting it get so much more reward than those who are good at their own culture/promoting it; we should at least try to revolve this.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:54 AM

Er - Sting has tried a lot of genres. I remember a TV programme on his recording session/album with Jazz musicians. And didn't we see him playing a set of John Dowland pavanes? He has transcended the genre that gave him fame and used it to more than attempt to be the consumate musician. I can think of many musicians who have tried to spread their wings only to sound like they can't bear to offend their audience. I have no special fondness for the man's music but I respect his integrity.

If he pronounces on the X factor I will listen. If Simon Cowel speaks in the forest where no-one hears - will anyone care?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 04:50 PM

"X Factor and shows like it have always been with us."

Unfortunately, I think you're right. "Opportunity Knocks" comes to mind....aaaaaaaggh!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 02:16 PM

Still no straight answer WAV. Which school of thought do you subscribe to? The School of Wikipedia perhaps?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Lox
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:17 PM

WAV,

That wiki link isn't reliable.

I dispute the idea that pop music comes from america.

I think its roots are far more complex than that.



Apart from that I think sting has done a good thing.

Richard thompson made the same point on BBC Hardtalk, but with less impact as he is less of a mainstream artist so less people are likely to pay attention.

It is good that the credibility of these shows is questioned in a way that causes the public to question them and to consider the alternatives.

Like or loath sting, his comments are correct and useful.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:08 PM

chortle

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:57 PM

If you wish to check Stings myspace, you'll find, nowadays, he categorizes himself as "acoustic, pop, rock"; and, whilst changes in style may have been made here by the likes of Sting, pop and rock originate in America.
I studied the works of several social anthropologists, Tim; although I recall Adelaide having close links with the "Manchester School".
Also, for what it's worth, I'm pleased Sting has recently turned his hand to English folk and Renaissance music, even though I'd rather hear, e.g., Emily Portman sing "The Snow it Melts the Soonest".

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Marje
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:50 PM

I think one of the things that concerns me is the way X-factor constantly emphasises how much the contestants want to succeed, as if this was the main thing that would ensure their success. They're always heard saying that they've been dreaming of nothing else but a singing career since they were two years old, and it means the world to them - absolutely everything! - to win, and how ghastly and unthinkable it would be if they had to go back to their old job, etc etc.

Even the winners are often heard exhorting others to "Just follow the dream!" as if you could become a successful singer by sheer willpower. They never say, "Take some singing lessons. Get some experience singing in pubs and clubs. Find a style of singing that suits you. Ask other people for critical feedback" ...etc. But no, it's just presented as a matter of wanting it badly enough and then it'll happen.

And I'd love to hear a contestant be brave enough to say, "Well it's only a competition and a bit of fun. It means quite a lot to me but it's not my whole world. I might as well have a go, and if I don't succeed, well, what have I lost?"

And for what it's worth, not all the previous winners have seen much in the way of success. Some have vanished without trace. Leona Lewis is the exception rather than the rule.

Marje

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:28 AM

Hey Terry! I think most of us understand WAV's motives pretty well now. I was feeling sorry for him, and decided to converse with him for a while; if you look at his WAV thread in BS, he's pretty much the only contributor; it's a lonely life being a misunderstood, tortured genius!
Oh, and WAV; since when was popular music an exclusively American genre? All cultures have popular music, including ours. Given the historically hybrid nature of our culture, it's not really surprising that our popular music, an artefact of that culture, reflects that nature. Is it?
By the way, you claim to have qualifications in Anthropology. Which school of thought do you follow? (You will know, of course, that there are a number of distinctly different theoretical and practical approaches, each with a diifferent take on the field.) I'm guessing that the Critical Theorists will appeal most to you, as you seem incapable of approaching any issue without promoting your ridiculous Englishness agenda. Straight answer if you can, please.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:06 AM

String's early output was a hybrid of punk (British with US antecedents) and reggae (Jamaican), David. But so what? At least he was halfway interesting then...

X Factor and shows like it have always been with us. Before that there were the manufactured boy and girl bands like Spice Girls, Boyzone etc. Before that there were all the awful manufactured 70s bands like the Chinnichap Productions mob and the Rollers clones. Before that the 50s and 60s were chock full of manufactured teen idols with some dodgy Cowell precursor using them as a get-rich-quick glove puppet. And there's always been a market for it.

In fact, it's almost a tradition...

Luckily, right now, thanks to the internet and especially Myspace, Youtube and so on, I can access a whole universe of fantastic music from all around the world, that largely exists outside of the clutches of the mainstream music or light entertainment industries - at the click of a mouse.

Within a few hundred yards of my house, I have a folk club, a singaround, two different sessions, ocassional ceilidhs, regular nu-folk, sing songwriter, exploratory and folkie-dokie gigs, an open mic, a non-folkie singing group, DJ nights and more. There's even the occasional rock gig. This is in one suburb of one city.

I don't think X Factor has any bearing on or relationship of any of the above. It's an entirely seperate world. Long may it remain so.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

"I think kids who are interested in music recognise that discrepancy. They watch X Factor for the human drama, like a soap; they go elsewhere for music."

Fair point Matt, I guess having been brought up on John Peel and that kind of moderately more 'undergroundish' approach to discovering music, the only thing I recall that was in the league of X Factor when I was in my teens was ToTP (or indeed C4's 'Chart Show' with the coveted Indie Chart), and well, that stuff was pretty homespun in comparison to the OTT production and public profile more modern media circus events like X Factor garner.

On reflection, it is however pretty ignorant and presumptuous of me to assume that the average young candidate for, or viewer of, the X factor is indeed any more representative of contemporary teens, than ToTP was for me in the late 80's/early 90's.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:49 AM

You're walking straight into WAV's trap.........

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: s&r
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:41 AM

Assuming that your assessment of Sting's performances as American is correct, what's wrong with that?

I think Tim said the comment was xenophobic (I agree) - attack the message not the man

Stu

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 09:16 AM

Tim - I don't watch the X-factor but, whenever its "highlights" make the news, contestants always seem to be performing in the style of pop, rock, or other American genres, which, as I say, is what Sting himself has done for most of his career. And your use of that other X-word is ridiculous against someone who has enjoyed travelling through about 40 countries, who majored in anthropology, etc.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 09:04 AM

btw.. considering Cowell's personal wealth and his last 12 months multi million profits,
How much does each contestant directly earn from involvement in this show;
and do they get any percentage of 'phone-in' profiteering...???

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 08:54 AM

the cruelest sting in this tale
is that the vast mass of teen audience voting for their favourite 'performer'to be awarded a music contract recording career,
are probably the least likeliest 'consumers' to ever intend to pay to buy any music 'product'...

The winners 1 and only CD will soon be available in bulk remaindered at your local £1.00 shop........

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 08:41 AM

Classic older order casting aspersions on the new order.

If I could be bothered to watch the programme, I feel confident I would whole heartedly agree with Sting. But I have a life to get and in involves making music for MY entertainment, & not to get rich.

Call it what you want, X factor is still mental wallpaper. Look how it signs it's own name!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 07:50 AM

As someone who's never had a positive word to say about Sting, I have to say I'm quite pleased.

And it might do something (even if it's only a little dent!) to undermine the crass and demeaning "culture" of the the X Factor.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 07:47 AM

X Factor is at one very particular extreme of the music spectrum: Saturday night light entertainment.

In fact, it doesn't really have much to do with music. The music is tertiary. What it's really about is STORIES. It is the Cinderella story, told over and over again. Someone getting to go to the ball, against all the odds. The singing is just an aside, an opportunity to wear spangly clothes.

X Factor has nothing in common with Jools Holland, or the late Top Of The Pops; it doesn't even have much in common with the pop video channels like MTV or The Hits. Its spiritual brethren are Who Wants to be a Millionaire, Neighbours or the National Lottery.

I think kids who are interested in music recognise that discrepancy. They watch X Factor for the human drama, like a soap; they go elsewhere for music. That's why few X Factor winners go on to anything, cos they're pointless outside of the story.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 07:33 AM

Wav; what does your xenophobic comment above have to do with this thread? It's about the music business, not the cultural purity or otherwise of Sting's oeuvre. Time to up your medication I suspect.
Back on topic: I think Sting was saying something important about how the whole music market is being skewed by the likes of Cowell and his cronies, making it ever harder for those with real talent and originality to get gigs, record deals and publicity   . In short, making it almost impossible to make a living from a musical career unless you conform to the pulp stereotypes promoted on the x factor. There is a limited amount of disposable income available to spend on music, and a disproportionate amount is hoovered up by the promoters of tv talent shows.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 07:32 AM

"A stunningly original insight from Sting, surely a breakthrough moment in critical thought & indubitably the first time anyone has ever reached those conclusions.

Coming soon: Sting identifies the Pope as a Catholic! Sting's groundbreaking discovery that bears poop in the woods!!"


Ah yes, lots of people may have made that insight. But, tonight, Sting really made it his own.

:)

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Smedley
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 07:30 AM

Sorry if this veers off-topic, but I have noticed an 'X-Factor' effect in wider circles. I work in education & every year now I get students telling me "my work deserves a higher grade, I worked so hard" etc etc etc. And it's all very reminiscent of the auditioning hopefuls in X-Factor world ' "you must put me through, it's my dream.....".

Sadly, not everyone is talented & hard work is no guarantee of accomplishment.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 07:19 AM

What's sad for such people is the sheer devastation that the cynical media orchestration of their 'highs and lows' brings about. These people beg on bended knees while wailing their eyes out if they don't get 'just another chance'. And Cowell sits there like some smugly indulgent Pontius Pilot, musing on who's going to be executed. It's quite disturbing at a level, and will surely end up resulting in some fragile individual topping themselves (wonder how old Sue Boyle is doing now after going a wee bit bonkers?)

Not quite sure how we've come to the point of the current generation of kids being brainwashed into believing that unless they get a massive break by winning the X Factor, there is no hope for them in music, but such productions have such a high profile that they take on a religious like power - appearing to be the sole opportunity for 'Salvation' to people who are clearly utterly desperate to change their world.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 07:06 AM

Typical Current MudCat sniping - OK , so WE all know what he says is true , but when has a major Show Business personality ever spoken the truth about the way the business has gone ?

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:56 AM

Coming soon!

Bonio on Strictly Come Dancing!

(Sneak preview: "Bruce Forsyth is older than me")

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:41 AM

Yes, but although he's recently gone back toward his roots, Sting himself has spent much of his career performing aspects of American culture, rather than his own.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: breezy
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:37 AM

maybe so , but what do the previous winners say.

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Smedley
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 04:31 AM

A stunningly original insight from Sting, surely a breakthrough moment in critical thought & indubitably the first time anyone has ever reached those conclusions.

Coming soon: Sting identifies the Pope as a Catholic! Sting's groundbreaking discovery that bears poop in the woods!!

Subject: RE: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 02:21 AM

Sting is absolutely right, Simon Cowell is nothing but a self promoting arse, in fact he's a self made man who clearly loves his creator.

Dave H

Subject: Sting calls X Factor Karaoke
From: civilservant
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:38 AM

Some good words from Sting here