Traditional vs the tradition

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:48 PM

Now, Paddy West is traditional, I think. But it certainly has enough detail and specifically targeted humor that it bears the mark of one creator. Is it truly traditional?

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:59 PM

can I mention the EFDSS.It has become a tradition for me to do so.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:15 PM

Don't know which 2 Steve meant, of course, but I would reckon 2 folk revivals --

1 about 1890 -1920s --- Baring Gould, Kidson, Fuller Maitland, Lucy Broadwood, Sharp, the Hammonds, Gardiner, Gavin Greig, Alfred Williams, Moeran, RVW, Grainger ...

2 1950ish+ Lloyd, MacColl, Lomaxes, Seeger, Ritchie, Kennedy, Palmer, ++++++++

I knew about those. :-)

I wonder if there is not a third - going on at the moment, its major feature being a new look at old music with a greater mix, but instrumental based. I can certainly make a case for this.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:18 PM

Couldn't it be said that there was a third revival (at least, in England) in the late sixties/seventies starting off folk/rock (Steeleye Span/Fairport Convention/Albion Band...) and moving more acoustic (Old Swan Band, Blowzabella...) before we entered the Dark Ages of the eighties and early nineties?

Similar things going on in Ireland (De Dannan, Planxty...) and Scotland (Battlefield Band, Ossian...).

Largely instrumental, as now, and very different from what was going on in the fifties.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:11 PM

I should call that 'a development' or an 'evolution' rather than a revival: the 50s onwards revival hadn't gone away but was simultaneously ongoing, and these things were just different manifestations of it, different forms it took. There was nothing to 'revive' because nothing had died, in the way that the impetus initiated by Sharp et al had died away during the 30s-40s. The well-known history of the Copper Family being REdiscovered by BBC Home Service's Country Magazine is instructive here.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 03:49 AM

I'm not sure about this Mike. There was definitely low points after (let's just say 1980 for now). I would date a gradual decline from the days of folk rock when amplification became necessary and places without it (and sometimes fairly sophisticated gear) started to close. I am obviously thinking of clubs here.

What kept it going were those who still offered clubs and those who still went. Martin Carthy, John Kirkpatrick, but I reckon there were not many folk singers or instrumentalists (however defined) who "started" as professionals in this period.

I would argue that the "development" is a qualitative change, from a "vocal" to an instrumental revival. And that's one we haven't had before.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 09:23 AM

I started around that period,as did Brian Peters,Jez Lowe,Pete Castle,Dick Miles,Damien Barber.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:04 PM

So, for that matter, did Eliza C, e.g. I don't think it was purely instrumental. the scene was indeed *diversifying* I agree, Dave, during 70s-80s-early90s: but I think the mainstream can be traced thruout as a continuous process, with those names rubricated above by GSS (who I am glad to see includes Dick Miles in his list - would never have done for him to omit that one!), emerging as the sort of folksingers who could have surfaced any time since 1950.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:04 PM

I suspect as we older people get older we don't realise how long ago that was!! :-)

Eliza was born in 1975 - she certainly had not started playing professionally in 1980. Likewise Damien, he entered his first YFA in 1989 or 1990.

But when you look at the younger musicians they seem to me to be mainly instrumentalists - hence the lack of young people in folk clubs, who wants to go in, play a set of three tunes (=three songs) and then leave.

So they go to sessions instead.

In me experience there is a huge revival in interest in folk music at the moment - especially amongst young people. And it is mainly a young instrumentalist revival, not a singing one.

Whether this is indeed a 3rd revival, well I suppose time will tell. When did we start calling the second revival "the second revival" and more pertinently I suppose - when did it (will it?) stop!

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:19 PM

I think it was recognised as the 2nd revival very early on, when the skiffle craze of about '54 onwards merged with folk, so that, e.g. at the clubs where Henry Morris's skiffle group played in the mid-50s, followed by the Nancy Whiskey club,[both at the Princess Louise] the 2nd half would include folksingers, like Henry [versatile] & Nancy herself [who employed at first a skiffle gp to start evening off as that was expected — but 2nd half, from about '55-'56 onwards, would include Ramblin Jack Elliot, Peggy Seeger, Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl — & anyone could see that a FOLK revival was underway. It was about then too that the Skiffle Cellar in Greek Street, run by Russ Quaye & Hylda Syms [who, bless them, gave me my 1st paid gig in 1956 — 10 shillings, well worthwhile in them'thar days] became the Folk Cellar with Steve Benbow's group, who were British folk not skiffle, the anchor group for the evening. ]That later became the Establishment Club {Lennie Bruce et al} & the original offices of Private Eye.]

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 11:08 AM

Although FolkieDave raises an interesting point I think there is a bit more to it than that. Certainly the virtuosic instrumentalists are think on the ground in the 25 to 35 age group, But a careful examination of the same group will reveal singers in equal numbers.
For a short example try, Jon Boden, Fay Hield, Gavin Davenport, Jess Arrowsmith, Bryony Griffith, Matt Quinn, Cuthbert Noble, Jackie Oates, Damien Barber, Rachel Unthank, Dogan Mehmet etc, etc etc. Trouble is, unlike my generation, many of these are also outstanding instrumentalists too.
Bryony Griffith once suggested (at Chippenham FF) that most of her generation got into folk music/song via morris dancing. Is this a common 'lead-in' for others of the older generation?

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:30 PM

Paul,
As one of the older generation you well know most of us were all- singing, all-playing, all-dancing, all-getting-pissed, and other things I won't mention.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 10:40 AM

Good Soldier Schweik wrote:-

I started around that period,as did Brian Peters,Jez Lowe,Pete Castle,Dick Miles,Damien Barber.

Both you and Dick Miles, eh? Can I put my tongue in my cheek and ask how the split personality is getting on these days? (Ouch! I've just bitten my tongue! Serves me right for trying to make a funny!)

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 04 Aug 26 - 03:41 PM

am I a traditional player if I play skiffle on a melodeon?- discuss

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 26 - 03:54 PM

Jim, i think the best thing is to play the music you enjoy.
definitions are for scholars not music players.

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 26 - 04:13 PM

Vic i am now THE Sand man, although i would prefer to be the skibereen eagle.
The Skibbereen eagle, tried to warn the Tsar about his fate, another reason.. we left old skibbereen .
Jim, i suppose you can be a traditional player, even if you are not playing trad music, its reminiscent of alice in wonderland,
according to the 1954 definition if you played skiffle at a football match and they all you joined in it might be traditional. which exposes the weaknesses perhaps of that definition, in the end you just have to play your thing.
but skiffle, involves songs like "Rock Island Line" which is a traditional American folk and railroad song . the anawer must be yes wherever you are playing that song

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 26 - 04:42 PM

skiffle is american tradtional music, so you are playing one particular kind of trad music

Subject: RE: Traditional vs the tradition
From: GUEST, jim bainbridge
Date: 06 Aug 26 - 06:29 AM

bit worried about the Tsar of Russia getting involved Dick- he was a bit ruthless & might not approve of skiffle- also I'd think US tradheads would think skiffle was a bit of a distortion of their pure tradition, paralleled in UK by similar thinkers.
melodeon player are not generally approved of anyway, especially by me, when in numbers, but I'm reassured that my renditions of tunes & songs of the recent past might still qualify as part of the tradition.

    I know you are sympathetic to my fairly eclectic approach to the music Dick, and it reminds me of a eview of one of my CDs contained the immortal lines 'Jim just plays the music and songs he likes'- I've always wondered about what the alternative would be?