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Subject: Film: The Wicker Man From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:18 PM Edward Woodward's death brings this fine film back to mind. It has much folk content, in the songs, dances, customs, superstitions &c that run as a sort of leitmotiv thru it. One I haven't seen mentioned in any of the notes on it in Wiki, film guides, &c, is the effectiveness of the tune of 'Willie o Winsbury' played on brass instruments as a march at the beginning of the parade which leads up to the final climax. Any other examples of overlooked folk motifs in it? |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:25 PM What I love about TWM is the way it's virtually spawned a whole young folk 'tradition' of it's very own. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: open mike Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM or even a cult....we have discussed it several times. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=89099#1679193 http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=64126#1046213 http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=94137#1832771 there are (at least) 2 versions...longer 100 min., and shorter 88 min. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/ |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:07 PM The Wicker Man is actually metaphorical of the condition of Nazi Germany, albeit somewhat more subtle than Orwell's retelling of the birth of Soviet Russia in Animal Farm. The closing scene is the first clue, being so openly an analogue to that of James Whales' Frankenstein (1931) - the difference being that whilst in Frankenstein our sympathies are very much with the creature, in TWM, however, we're part of the mob, mindlessly chanting Sumer Is Icumen In as Sargent Howie screams his last. It operates as a tidy cinematographic equivalent of The Milgram Experiment in that the humanity of the islanders has been subsumed in respect to a higher moral authority which has been demonstrated to be entirely corrupt. The islanders, like the people of Nazi Germany, have been fed an entirely bogus pseudo-religious construct based on the flimsiest of folkloric precedents; they have been rendered docile, manipulated by mere spectacle; anaesthetised by enforced compliance to the extent that they willingly participate in a horrific murder which is, in actuality, a desperate buying of time as the foundations of the aristocratic order of Summerisle begin to crumble. It's interesting to speculate on what purpose might be served by the clumsy segue from the opening Highland Widow's Lament, as respectfully sung in a traditional manner by Shiela Mackie (who also sang willows Song) with Northumbrian (!) pipes & chorus, into Paul Gionvanni's sublime though purposefully non-traditional setting of Burns' Corn Riggs. There is a lurch of conciousness here between the traditional, and the faux-traditional, between the real world and the world of Summerisle, where Giovanni's increasingly surreal perversions of traditional themes are as twisted as the neo-pagan beliefs of the islanders themselves. A totalitarian state has been contrived from an interpretation of folkloric elements, the Frazerian notions writ large whereby the people were believed to be entirely ignorant of the real meanings behind the customs they themselves perpetuated! The customs of the people have been used against themselves, and hitherto vague symbolism (i.e. the may-pole) have become didactic absolutes. Even their own natural bawdiness becomes a moral prison. How else might we interpret the weeping in the erotic night scene? Or else the beguiled faces of the musicians as they sing Gently Johnny whilst poor Ash Buchanan is being abusively initiated (though I doubt he's complaining) by Willow McGregor in the room above whilst Lord Summerisle utters his chilling, yet beautiful, soliloquy which consistently misquotes Part 32 of Song of Myself from Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass? |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: robomatic Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:24 PM I thought it was a set as a nice kick-in-the-pants to conservative Christianity as represented by Woodward's character who is so rigidly defined by his church attendance at the beginning, his baleful-eyed lack of recpetivity as the Islanders' neo-paganism is revealed with great frankness in the middle of the film, and his open-eyed walk into a fairly obvious trap set him by the locals. Woodward's interpretation of a Protestant Scotsman tone-deaf to the tastes and colors of a rich life beyond his training (socio-religious as well as constabulary) was masterful. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Folkiedave Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:24 PM Really. Well I never knew that. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:43 PM It does something similar to The Prisoner in that it pits the individual against the repressive conservatism and conformity of society. In TWM however the individual is made as disagreeable as possible (unlike the hero Number Six), but Howie is still the individual, and the seductiveness of the society (the the tastes and colors of a rich life beyond his training you speak) are demonstrated to be vacuous, bogus, entirely hollow and, ultimately, murderous. The end is as chilling a damnation of human vulnerability to absolute authority as anything in the history of cinema - even Scum - even more so when people invariable come away from it feeling a sense of triumph. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Phil Cooper Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM Liked the Woodward version of Wicker Man. Don't bother with the Nicholas Cage remake. Didn't like the modern re-doing of the Burns' tune, but that's the folky in me. Why throw out a great tune and replace it with a new, mediocre one. But it's all in all and entertaining film. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: VirginiaTam Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM Wow! Not one mention of Britt Eckland's naked assed sex dance. I'm really proud of you guys. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Amergin Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:48 PM I think some one is reading too much into the film... |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM Really. Well I never knew that No neither did I. I merely saw it as the biggest load of cobblers that it clearly is. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Folkiedave Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM The Britt Ekland naked dance isn't mentioned because her voice was dubbed and so was her body. Apart from that yes - it was Britt Ekland. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM "Wow! Not one mention of Britt Eckland's naked assed sex dance." Hell, but wasn't she bloody gorgeous? Actually you'll find I already did it over on the other one.. :) Though I posted it with specific reference to Woodwards character's behaviour mind you. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:06 PM Disagree with Diane &c. Think SO'P's & Robo's analyses masterly. That is actually not Ekland's bottom, Virginia, tho her tits; but bum is that of a Glasgow stripper called Jane Jackson — if you look carefully, she was slightly taller & slightly slimmer & slightly straighter-haired. I gather Ekland was pregnant at time, so didn't mind topless but didn't want to show bum - tho I don't quite understand why... |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:25 PM As I say, the singer of Brit Elkland's naked dance (AKA Willow's Song) is Shiela Mackie, who also sang the masterful Highland Widow's Lament that opens the usual / shorter cut of the film, and many (myself included!) have mistaken for Ray Fisher. And whilst we're on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdWY-AMY_zY |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:25 PM SO'P's analysis is very interesting, not merely in reference to the film itself (though I don't fully agree with it - perhaps another post) but also in relation to the broader cultural Neo-Pagan phenomenon. And most especially with reference to modern self-defined 'Heathen' or 'Norse' aspects of Neo-Pagan Religion, which I fear indeed has some unfortunate ideological and cultural linkages to Nazism... As an aside, Morris Sides concerned about BNP infiltration, unfortunately would do well to keep such things in mind... |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: robomatic Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:40 PM Britt Ekland's dance was somewhat bowdlerized in the version I saw, but it was presented as part of that rich, sexually frank world that was denied the Woodward character. It was, so to speak, a 'high' point of the film. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Surreysinger Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:35 PM One thing not mentioned by anyone here is the fact that Christopher Lee regarded the film as his best piece of film work. I find it an interesting piece of work, but rather irritating ... most notable for me some good camera work, particularly the final credits with the sunrise... the rest of it after first watch just made me want to yawn (despite the presence of Edward Woodward in it, which was the main reason for watching it in the first place). Rather a non-story, and now rather dated. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:04 PM I love it, but then I'm biased. It's got my great-aunt's, my uncle and his boat (yes, Escampador always had the eye on the prow), and former Sandy Bell's regular, Lyndsey Kemp. The only jarring aspect is when the domestic architecture changes abruptly from Wester Ross to Galloway. And what denomination is Edward Woodward supposed to be? When I first saw the early scenes I thought he was a Catholic. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM Sorry, that was my great aunt's house. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Old Vermin Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:51 PM So'P . I am most impressed by the scholarly analogy. My own take on it tends to be intuitively: A black comedy. Howie, a study in religiose and authoritarian incompetence: utterly sure of his own righteousness. At forty-whatever, he is saving himself for his eventual marriage - scene cut from later versions. He blithely and contemptuously crashes in single-handed to deal with people he thinks of as simple folk. Utterly ignores all possibility of danger. A complete bloody fool, and a steaming incompetent. Meanwhile the simple folk manipulate him most gloriously. Camp or possibly kitsch.. Using *that* much of The Golden Bough is just really, really over-doing it. And the writhing against the wall...not what you might call subtle, there. Music that lingers in the memory. Ian Cutler really enjoying himself. the scenes with the sea-plane and longshore-men. The Landlord's Daughter. and the louche landlord - who was that? Some very good acting. For Woodward to make Howie's blinkered pomposity credible was a superb achievement. And Christopher Lee was just so matter-of-fact about it. Hadn't given it the same thought as SoP - been a dissertation, I wonder - and shall look it differently in future. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Folkiedave Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:05 PM Much of it was filmed in Galloway close to where my wife comes from. The gardens (Summer Isles) are actually Logan Gardens - south of Stranraer. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:24 PM Re his religion [see Dave MacKenzie's query above] - surely some sort of strict Calvinism? |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Dave Sutherland Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:51 AM I read that Christopher Lee described Edward Woodward's part as "beautifully played". |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Spleen Cringe Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:11 AM I can understand why it's critics hate it - I think it's one of those films that if it doesn't get under your skin could be deeply irritating. For me, it's one of those I keep coming back to, ever since seeing it at a one-off afternoon showing at the Cornerhouse in Manchester sometime in the 80s. I remember being absolutely entranced and then somehow disppointed on leaving the cinema that I was rejoining a typically grey, drizzly, ordinary Manchester teatime. Summerisle stayed with me for a long time. The film is one of the things that led me back to a love both of folksong and fakesong. Christopher Lee once said that the loss of most of the bits of the film that were cut prior to original release was one of his greatest regrets. I believe that the Memory Band did some gigs last year involving playing the soundtrack live as the film was shown. Any one here see them? |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:52 AM Never seen it - pray tell me if it's to be shown on TV. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 17 Nov 09 - 05:02 AM and the louche landlord - who was that? None other than mime artist Lindsay Kemp - theatrical mentor for both David Bowie and Kate Bush. * My feelings on The Wicker Man have changed over the years. I started off on the pro-pagan foot (pagan that I was back then) and it wasn't until watching Frankenstein one rainy day in 1997 that the TWM analogue hit me, thus sending me back to the notorious Milgram Experiment and similar themes of individuality and mass compliance explored in The Prisoner, which runs pretty close in terms of a certain Zeitgeist. My love of the film hasn't changed though, nor yet my love of the soundtrack which I regard as a triumph - not least for Lesley Mackie's singing, who covers the ground between Highland Widow's Lament and Willow's Song in a single fire-leap. Others have tried, but no one comes close; see HERE for an interview. That TWM has served as a pamphlet for the proscriptive Frazerian absolutes of neo-paganism (even the Green Man scrapes in by the skin of his teeth as the name of the pub!) is, I feel, unfortunate - especially as much of that thinking still remains current in both the pagan & popular imaginations. Couched in such absolutist terms, it has become the theology of a very persistent Zeitgeist we are somehow loathe to let go of - or else is loathed to let go of us! Stopping off in Glastonbury last summer it was evident just how overloaded such a dogma has become; a conservatism entirely at odds with the freedoms it would otherwise claim to espouse. At the end of the day, I am with Sergeant Howie - I was never a one for being part of a mob. Sure, he is the despised sibling of Number Six (who at least did escape) - but in that respect he serves as a timely reminder that human individually is often most marked in the outcast & outsider. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 17 Nov 09 - 05:08 AM Oops! Reading the interview with Lesley Mackie it wasn't her singing Willow's Song on the fim, rather a nameless music student. She sings it on the soundtrack CD though... |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 17 Nov 09 - 05:13 AM For an in depth overview of the music: http://www.wicker-man.com/musicofthewickerman.php I think this basically the booklet notes from the Silver Screen soundtrack CD, but worth a look anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 17 Nov 09 - 05:40 AM Willow's Song was one of the first 'folk' songs I learned to sing - a couple of years ago now, when I bought TWM soundtrack along with an old Pentangle album I remembered from my early teens. Like Spleen, TWM soundtrack (along with Cruel Sister I think) made me look further into folk song. Further to reductive tendencies in Neo-Pagan dogma, Willow's Song's been done and done again by Pagan stylee folkies. And I think it loses something essential in being treated too carelessly, like a kind of Pagan celebration of Earthly Love or something (which of course it isn't at all - if you consider the context.) I like to treat it as more of a sinister Siren's song than a celebration of sexuality, and it works much better for me when approached on that level. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: GUEST Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:14 AM I think the 'black comedy' post is probably closest. The Edward Woodward character is such a pompous ass. He's like Harold Bishop from Neighbours, or Alan Partridge. Plus the film is often funny, like the slapstick of him going round looking for the body (was it?) in cupboards etc. Not sure it's a coherent enough movie to be a successful allegory as polarised as suggested here. It's hardly Arturo Ui or Lohengrin. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Smedley Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:27 AM Sorry if this is sacrilege, but for me one of the best Wicker Man musical 'outcomes' was the track 'How Do' by Sneaker Pimps. They sampled dialogue from the film & adapted one of the folk melodies to produce one of the finest tracks in what was (briefly) called the trip-hop genre. Not very Mudcat, I realise....... |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Stu Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:37 AM "Stopping off in Glastonbury last summer it was evident just how overloaded such a dogma has become; a conservatism entirely at odds with the freedoms it would otherwise claim to espouse." Over the years Glastonbury has become a clearing house for all manor of neo-pagan tat. It's got worse over the years and even worse since the excellent George and Pilgrim was taken over by someone who doesn't allow dogs in any more. I still like going, the Tor and the Well still have an air about them and the Abbey grounds are always a joy and some interesting people still turn up there. However, the sort of dogma SOB mentions in his post has existed in the community for years. I one wrote to Paul Deveraux when he was editing The Ley Hunter (sigh . . .) and suggested he might like to hoof it up here to the Peak District and check out some of our slightly more remote spots where the presence of the 'earth spirit' was almost tangible, and he replied in terms of "sure it is" but didn't seem interested that wasn't on a ley line (or 'spirit road' as they later became). I decided many people weren't particularly interested in actual 'pagan' sites and folklore but simple wanted a theology that included the glossy bits but not the muddy bits. Ever Read Ross Nichol's book on Druidry? Case in point. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:53 AM The Tor spirit remains unchanged, though even back in 1983 I remember the Labyrinth / Zodiac types hanging about pressing their dogma with worrying sort of righteous zeal. On one hand they were telling you about the isle of Avalon, and the next about the Glastonbury Zodiac but when you pointed out that the two ideas were logically incompatible on account of the supposed zodiac being underwater for thousands of years they looked at you as if you were from another planet. Amazing how quickly the Tor Labyrinth was accepted as fact, an attitude which fed into the whole Earth Mysteries vibe with a worrying sort of fundamentalism which put me right off the whole thing. I much prefer the cultivation terraces idea! Here's a wee film we made back in May 2005 when they were fixing the erosion by means of a helicopter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--XmMAR4lPE The Green Man that appears near the beginning is from St John's Church on the High Street, not far from a shop called The Goddess and the Green Man; the copy of Mercia MacDermott's Explore Green Men I bought there that day still has a faint scent of incense about it! If anyone here has heard the Plough Plays album by The Nihil Project, the music here is the basic baking track we did for Weaving Wheat which features on their Myspace Page. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Green Man Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:55 AM Well this is a fine movie and no doubt, always been a fan of Mr Woodward and Christopher Lee. As for all of the psychobabble, neo pagan whut? Its a movie! Green Man is incensed at the taking of his name in fun and wants more of it! :) You want to see pagan, look at the RC Church now there's a cult if ever I saw one. The thing about the craft or druidry is that you can't just be a druid or a witch you have to use the tools and do something with them. And at very least it got you'all talking about it. GM (Not food) |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Morris-ey Date: 17 Nov 09 - 09:12 AM Sweeny You should wirte for wikerpedia... |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Morris-ey Date: 17 Nov 09 - 09:13 AM or even write for wickerpedia.. is editing posts possible on this site? |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 17 Nov 09 - 10:22 AM Not unless you've been empowered to do so by Lord Summerisle. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Nov 09 - 10:39 AM Time to add this to my NetFlix queue! |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: goatfell Date: 17 Nov 09 - 10:44 AM I like the picture a real horror picture, better that these funny ones that now show |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Spleen Cringe Date: 17 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM SRS - whatever you do, don't accidently get the Nicolas Cage remake. It truly stinks... |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: GUEST,Doc John Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:21 PM Always watch the longer version, the 'Director's Cut', (both are available on the same DVD): there's some beautiful photography of the islands and the character of Sgt Howie becomes clearer when he is shown before he leaves for the island, so that the film becomes more understandable, among other clarifications. The longer version still suffers from cuts and there is at least one scene that doesn't make sense. I read somewhere that there is a 'Wickerman II' in which Lord Summerisle and Sgt Howie (somehow) reappear. Any information please? M the GM, I greatly admire your skill of observation and appreciation of delightful naked ladies! |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM Why, thank you, Doc. We do our best to please... esp when it comes to beautiful naked ladies! |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Gervase Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM I've never been able to see it as anything but a poorly-cut load of twaddle, mashing up bits of Frazer and Gardner into a typicaly plastic pagan pick'n'mix. Apart from Lee and Woodward the acting is more wooden than my kitchen table, while the music is a series of rather twee pastiches. That said, I've not seen 'the director's cut', but I doubt that it could redeem the dreadful acting and the clunking script. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM No-one tho, talking of the music, has responded to my comments in my OP on how effective the Willie O Winsbury tune is, played as a march on the brass to open the parade as the climax begins. Has anyone noticed that, & do you agree? |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: robomatic Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM SOP would you please let me know how to pronounce your name, as I am inconvenienced with a lack of in-depth knowledge of the Gaelic. If you feel this is not a public discourse topick, by all means mail me. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:45 PM ...this thread has gone all SOPpy. |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Ross Campbell Date: 17 Nov 09 - 05:36 PM As distinct from WAVey? |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: Jack Blandiver Date: 17 Nov 09 - 06:18 PM Suibhne = Sweeney O = O Piobaireachd = Pibrock |
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Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:29 PM "Carry On Pagan"... |
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