Film: The Wicker Man

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 09:09 PM

The Interior of the Green Man on Summerisle was actualy the Ellangowan in Creetown. My best mate and expat Swinton Folk Clubber, Dave, emmigrated to Scotland a couple of years ago and lives about 2 miles from Creetown, so it is his local and I have a few good pints there myself now. Very nice pub and lots of the cast of The Wicker Man have revisted, including Edward Woodward, who stood a few rounds for the whole pub apparantly.

By a strange quirk of fate it brings us back to Folk Music. This very weekend there is a private party where lots of Swintonites, excluding me unfortunately, are descending on the Ellangowan and bringing a touch of Lancashire culture and music to the heathen Scot:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 11:08 PM

Ta, Suibhne!

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:44 AM

how effective the Willie O Winsbury tune is

Effective it certainly is, but I've always been a sucker for brass bands playing traditional / folk tunes. An especial favourite is a field-recording I made at the Durham Miners' Gala some years ago in which one of the passing bands plays a medley of Tyneside classics including Blaydon Races & Come Geordie Haad the Bairn with great gusto. Is that a Traditional tune? It's part of my cultural blood & soul and on that criteria alone I'd have to say that it is!

Free secure MP3 download here:

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/777672108/1e8a7db40920bacd94f468560212c769

Is it true that the Willie O' Winsbury tune was originally Fause Foodrage and would have remained so had not the wind turned the pages of Andy Irvine's music book? Less forgiveable, perhaps, is Pentangle's use of Lay the Bent for The Cruel Sister, but I'm not the Folk-Eater I used to be on such matters. Having seen the real Folk-Eaters and Dementors in action on Mudcat has certainly been an education in the deathly extremes of philatelic pedantry!

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:50 AM

Out of interest, Suibhne — in what sense "philatelic"?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 08:31 AM

The tune most frequently used these days for Willie is still the tune assigned in Bronson to Fause Fooodrage. Andy Irvine seems to have created an entire chapter of folklore over this; I was told in Ireland that here was the very bookshop where he dropped a tome and lo! it fell open and a page with the tune fluttered out . . .

Cue Brian Peters to come along and tell us what else you can sing it to.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 08:44 AM

Why, you can sing it to any ballad tune, of course. Ballad metre isn't also often ref'd to as "common metre" for nothing; & any ballad written in it can, notionally, be sung to the tune of any other. In that sense, partic tunes attib'd by convention to specific ballads are somewhat arbitrary, as I have often observed. But one still likes the idea of a special tune for each ballad, doesn't one. Nevertheless, as you say, Bronson's Fause Foudrage has sort of become assocd with W o W & the sky hasn't fallen.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 08:48 AM

Mind you, it can get confusing. To prove my point, I just tried singing words of Willie O W to tune of Queen Eleanor's Confession, but going from stanza 1 to 2, found I was going

...Has lain long with his daughter at home.

The king called down his nobles all ...

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:00 AM

in what sense "philatelic"?

By association - nerdy, hobbyist, ultimately pointless, primarily concerned with taxonomy and entirely removed from the culture & application of the thing in its natural living environment. I think most everyone on the planet has used stamps at some point in their lives, and even appreciated the beauty of some of them, but what proportion regard them as a subject worthy of study and move into realms of philately?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Stu
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:08 AM

Crikey - seems a tad damning of the enthusiastic amateur doesn't it?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:26 AM

Any hobby could be similarly impugned. Seems a bit perverse to pick on the poor philatelist, when you equally well have chosen the numismatist, or the whatever·ya·call·him·who·does·matchboxes, or a friend of mine, distinguished folklorist of the urban myth, who used to collect soft-drink cans — or the folkie, for that matter. Frankly, I consider you to have arbitrarily & unacceptably & hyperbolically & erroneously overdefined the term — taxonomically.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:33 AM

Not damning at all - I think it's glorious & I recognise and celebrate such tendencies in myself, but I refuse to kow-tow to the sort of noxious absolutism we've seen in other threads - such as Does Folk Exist?. The problem I have is reconciling pedantry with pragmatism especially with respect of a music that only exists by dint of its having been defined as such by outsiders and removed entirely from its natural habitat and reinvented by way of a revival elsewhere. I am one such outsider with a life-long love of such material and I have a similar philatelic approach to (say) The Earthly Recordings of Sun Ra, The Recorded Legacy of Joy Division, the Soft Machine and the Third Ear Band - likewise the films of The Marx Brothers, although here my appreciation is somewhat different in that I don't then go out and perform such material however inspirational I might find it!

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Stu
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:56 AM

Fair enough. It's just as an amateur palaeontologist and lover of Irish traditional music you held up a mirror . . .

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

Actually, Sui, I am having at this moment a delightful mental image of you stalking like Groucho, cigar & all, & smiling like Harpo, & vending like Chico — "Come and get your ice-cream; get your tutti-frutti ice-cream".

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 12:10 PM

... and don't forget that philately will get you nowhere!

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 12:10 PM

tutti-frutti ice-cream

Tutsi-frutsi ice-cream if you please! ;-)

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 12:11 PM

You cain't fool me — there ain't no sanity clause...

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:02 PM

Re:

By association - nerdy, hobbyist, ultimately pointless, primarily concerned with taxonomy and entirely removed from the culture & application of the thing in its natural living environment. I think most everyone on the planet has used stamps at some point in their lives, and even appreciated the beauty of some of them, but what proportion regard them as a subject worthy of study and move into realms of philately?

I asked a friend of mine why he collected stamps; his pragmatic reply: "in case I'm ever paralyzed!"

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: fretless
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:36 PM

Of the three versions of this film, respectively 88, 99, and 102 (or is it 110?) minutes, the longest one is the best, but I haven't been able to locate it on a DVD formatted for Region 1 (US and Canada). Does a 100+ version for Region 1 even exist? Is it on sale for the New World side of the pond?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:42 PM

...I keep checking here in case a TV schedule has been changed to broadcast it.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 02:34 PM

The Wicker Man has been broadcast several times on UK TV recently (couple of months back? Can't remember which channel). Film Four (and other channels) tends to use things several times over a couple of weeks, and will then re-cycle them some months after, so you probably won't have long to wait. Worth looking round charity shops (locally selling vhs tapes five for a pound, DVDs for £1/£2/£3 apiece. I managed to find the original theatre version, the director's cut, and even the reviled (and unnecessary) remake in DVD form within the last few months.

The Theatre (short) version DVD was given away free with the Guardian or Observer newspaper about a year ago, so there should be plenty of copies floating about.

Ross

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: richd
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM

The slightly longer CH4 DVD version can currently be bought in Tesco for £3.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:33 PM

I actually prefer the shorter cut; I've seen the longer cuts and all they do is slow up the action with some extraneous religious stuff which is (pretty much) covered by Howie's character anyway. Less is so very often more. A few years ago they issued a Redux version of Apocalypse Now which was quite possibly one of the worst films I've ever seen. The original, on the other hand, is one of the best - again covering themes of individuality, compliance, tribalism, and the psychotic consequences of religious extremism - and it's on Friday week on Film4.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: paula t
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:44 PM

I don't think I could watch it again.The wicker man scene was so disturbing.I saw it in the pub about 25 years ago, when I was working behind the bar. I did my best to block out the screaming, but couldn't. Too real.Horrible.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 10:22 PM

Slight drift — I can if I like, I'm the OP!

Suibhne has a very good point — a lot of films are just much too long nowadays: best e.g. that comes to my mind — I bought dvd of 'The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford' [titles are too long too btw!]. It would have been quite a good movie of 85 minutes. But it went on for over 2½ hrs, by which time, boy had I ever nodded off. Why will they do that?!

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:08 AM

The Theatre (short) version DVD was given away free with the Guardian or Observer newspaper about a year ago,

I've got a copy in my in-law's garage in a wee stack of such freebies, including a truly ghastly version of Handful of Dust (Sturridge, 2003). Must dig them out next time I'm over there, HoD notwithstanding. I'm a great fan of Evelyn Waugh, but there is a tendency for over-acted po-faced adaptations which no way reflect the dynamics of the narratives. Brideshead Revisited is one of the most exquisite novels ever written, but the TV adaptation I find relentlessly turgid and ultimately unwatchable. The exception here is Vile Bodies, adapted by Stephen Fry as Bright Young Things (also in 2003). I suppose he had half the work already done for him here as Waugh wrote Vile Bodies very much in the manner of a movie treatment, with short snappy scenes driving the narrative along at a rare old pace. It's a joy to watch - not least for the delightful Fenella Woolgar. My only complaint is that the fictional war wrote of by Waugh in 1930 is not, of course, the 1939-45 war, though that's the impression given in the film with its use of WW2 radio clips which throws the thing into something of an anachronistic turmoil. Still worth watching though. Better still - read the book, though you won't get the lovely Fenella...

Talking of books, anyone here read The Wicker Man novels? The first is David Pinner's Ritual from 1967 from which TWM took it's initial inspiration. I haven't read it myself, nor even seen a copy - though there's a copy going on Amazon.com for a less than tempting $386.26! The second is Robin Hardy's novelisation of the film which I once tried to read but soon gave up on. Like remakes, Film Novelisations never work...

I am prepared to be contradicted here; as my Penguin Flu moves into its 4th week it has shifted into its most nasty phase so far, miring me with mucus, giddy deliriums and quite vivid dreams (last night I dreamt of both Peter Bellamy and Ian Curtis) - so I am in need of distraction & diversion. Where better to turn at such times than Mudcat?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:54 AM

Agree with much of SO'P on Waugh, tho thought the itv Brideshead had some v good moments, esp those involving Olivier & Gielgud — even tho it started with the absolute ballsup of Capt Ryder saying 'Good morning, Sergeant-major' to a soldier with the insignia of a colour-sergeant [I have written already on that towards the end of the Bless 'Em All thread]. Must say I regard A Handful of Dust, along with Brideshead & much of Vile Bodies, as his most accomplished novel. Am v fond of Black Mischief [tho too un-PC for today's younger readers I suspect] & Put Out More Flags. Find Scoop much overrated, tho I know it has its admirers. Scott-King's Modern Europe, along with other shorter late novellas like Ordeal Of Gilbert Penfold & Basil Seal Rides Again, well worthwhile too. I can't warm to the Men At Arms trilogy, tho recognise its quality.

There you are, Sweeney. Hope you feel a bit better. Get Well Soon.

Now, enough drift [I know I started it]. Can we have my thread back to The Wicker Man, please? I found Paula t's post, two or three back, about how terrifying she found it when forced to watch it from behind the bar in the pub where she was working, most fascinating and moving. Thank you, Paula. Any more such comments or memories?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:38 AM

Thanks R. & R. - I just added Film Four to Favourites on my basic Sky package, so I can keep a look out for this movie.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Micca
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 07:15 AM

Back in about 1973-4 I went to see a double bill of films at a cinema in Baker St london (The Times? Classic?)I went specifically to see "Dont Look Now" (an excellent film in its own right) I had No Idea what "the Wicker Man" was about, and watched fascinated at the first portrayal of any kind of pagan beliefs I had ever seen in the cinema,(that weren't from The parodied, bowdlerised, very fevered imaginings of Dennis Wheatly, Stoker and Mary Shelley via Hammer)That seemed to treat the beliefs with, if not sympathy, at least some understanding that the Judeo-Christian was not the only Western spiritual path. As the film neared the ending I was CERTAIN they would wimp out, and Howie would be rescued,right up to the end, as the sun touched the horizon and the head of the Giant fell in flames I sat in my seat stunned!!! I could not believe they had followed through, and treated their audience as adults, and thinking adults at that,It made an impression on me that has lasted. The debate about "short" v "long" version, I found the "bit before the titles" and the banter in the police station (in the "long" version) very informative regarding the rigid Calvinistic beliefs of the sarjeant and his lack of tolerence and flexibility. I prefer that Long version.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 07:58 AM

Hey, that last post of mine got back on thread with mention of the Wicker Man novels. A search on Abe Books reveals the copy of Ritual presently on Amazon.com is a bit of a snip. Odd how it hasn't seen a reprint if it's so highly prized.

Brief thread-drift: be sure watch Apocalypse Now next Friday, 9pm on Film4, WAV - which has a literary precedent in Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Interesting that a film version I once saw of HoD (with Patrick Stewart?) seemed to owe more to Apocalypse Now than Conrad's classic novel.

Back on thread: I'm now going to take this opportunity to mention my personal Wicker Man tribute in which I sing two versions of Gently Johnny (to the Traditional Melody) as bookends to the free-style canting of Walt Whitman's Song of Myself #32 from Leaves of Grass - as chillingly (and imperfectly) intoned by Lord Summerisle as young Ash Buchanan is getting his jollies with Willow. You can hear this as Track #4 on my Myspace Page. The second set of Gently Johnny is C#'s expurgated text which I find infinitely more erotic than the more explicit set, the chorus taking on quite vivid sexual symbolism which is rather eclipsed in the other set.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:05 AM

that weren't from The parodied, bowdlerised, very fevered imaginings of Dennis Wheatly, Stoker and Mary Shelley via Hammer)

Not that the imaginings of Sir James Frazer (the main source used by the writers of TWM) are any less fevered of course. The paganism of TWM is, like neo-paganism in general, 100% bullshit based on Frazerian fantasy & other highly outdated approaches to folklore.

Quiz time! What legendary Study of Comparative Religion connects The Wicker Man to Apocalyspe Now? And in what way?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: GUEST,Richd in work
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:17 AM

I saw TWM when it was released with Don't Look Now- the Nick Roeg film. The 1973 cut was the original 99 min edit done by Hardy. This was also the cut that went to Roger Corman . Corman cut it to 88 mins for the US drive-in market. Quite a lot of additional footage was trashed. Rumour has it it was dumped under the M3 by British Lion. Later, there was a 'restored' US version in between the two in length. Can't exactly remeber how long that one was, or when it came out and don't have notes handy. I much preferred Don't Look Now. Ironically, I now teach TWM once a year as part of a course on British Cinema. It's interesting how each class interprets the same film in different ways.This year they picked up on the contrast and simularities between the world views of Howie and Summerisle- religion, differnt kinds of authority and power. My opinion still hasn't changed over the years and the screenings, it's not all it's cracked up to be, and I much prefer a good Hammer. For occult b***cks Donald Cammel- Performanc, White of the Eye

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:58 PM

Re: 100% bullshit based on Frazerian fantasy & other highly outdated approaches to folklore....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFF6wtP8BBk

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 12:59 AM

Amusing, Suibhne — but would have been even more so if the singer's diction hadn't been so dire — or if there had been subtitles. Couldn't hear a single word he was 'singing' — the sort of self-indulgent ineptitude I used always to denounce in my reviews of folk records.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

Lame & misleading, even down to now-ubiquitous Green Man, albeit antlered in a Bamberg mask - I ask you! The Frazerian myth holds sway in this dotty montage of revivalist fantasy folklore though of course you won't find a Green Man in The Golden Bough. In fact, it would appear the pub name (blink and you'll miss it!) in The Wicker Man is ground-zero for The Green Man in a popular neo-pagan / folkloric context.

Not to be outdone however, I adopted the guise of The Green Man at last year's Morpeth Northumbrian Gathering (see HERE). Far from being pagan, however, the costume represents an attempt at recreating a medieval carnival figure which many Foliate Head carvings could well be depicting, such as this Sinister Supporter on a misericord in Chester Cathedral which I used as a prototype for the mask. I even won a prize for my efforts, though naturally enough the coat was made by my dear darling mother-in-law...

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 09:11 AM

Who needs cheap viagra when you've got The Wicker Man?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 09:12 AM

Note to Mods: If you delete that spam post please delete my response to it which would look a bit odd without it.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 01:15 PM

Ahh, looks like they didn't notice your request SO'P.
Some time back I posted a sarcastic reply to some bitchy ageist/misogynist Guest troll, only to find in the morning that I was seemingly making a peculiar and completely isolated comment about vaginal dryness. Live and learn, eh?

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:14 PM

Interesting how "Wicker Man" thread evokes mentions of Waugh and Brideshead Revisited. I was very eager to see BR when it came out as I'd just completed my first reading of it, and the roster of actors for it was formidable, but when it was aired I was in school.

Brideshead Revisited is one of the three "Christian" themed works which I have found very moving. My mother once mentioned that the author Chaim Potok mentioned it as an influence in his work. The other two outstanding Christian themed works for me are: Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov and William Miller's A Canticle for Leibowitz. I have not checked out if a movie has ever been made for BK, but New Hampshire Public Radio did a creditable radioplay version of Canticle.
Recently I read an interesting little book which may join my Christian Trilogy, or, more better stated, turn my trilogy to a quadrangle: Master And Margarita by Bulgakov.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:54 PM

FYI - the '4' version of 'trilogy' is 'tetralogy': a quadrangle is something else.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:30 PM

How about if I put 'em at four corners, a wreck-tangle?

FYI thanks

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:19 PM

You could always use the guid auld Scottish word...a Quaire!

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 07:42 PM

Currently showing on ITV4 (UK) -

The Wicker Man is on TV this week ...
ITV4 12:45am Tue 29 Dec
                
ITV4 + 1 1:45am Tue 29 Dec
        
ITV4 10:00pm Wed 30 Dec

ITV4 + 1 11:00pm Wed 30 Dec

Don't know if ITV4 + 1 is a real station or a figment of my TV Guide's imagination

Ross

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:44 AM

Thanks for this and the PM, Ross: I've found ITV4 +1 but not "The Wicker Man"..? It's showing "Space 1999", and then "The Champions" at 11.30 a.m. But I've now put this channel on my favourites to look out for it.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Old Vermin
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:30 AM

ITV4 real enough last night.

Wasn't really staying up that late...just late enough to notice the bodhran played at arm's length with a long stick in the pub.

If the Howie character is meant to be bright and canny enough to fly a sea-plane - with all the complex risk-assessment involved - why is he just so unutterably dim about humans?

Shouldn't take it too literally, I guess.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:18 AM

Silly me - I read it as 11.45 am, and now plan to watch it at 10.00 pm tomorrow; thanks again, Ross.

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:27 PM

Final warning - The Wicker Man is on ITV4 (UK) tonight, 10pm - 11.50pm.

Ross

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 05:32 PM

Of course, you surely all realise that the way the released version of the end of the film was not that way that the director intended. In fact the original version was even more horrific. After all these years, the original ending has been posted on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHxW3INJBg4 but a word of warning - this version is not for the faint-hearted (or even the feint-hearted!)

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:11 AM

Mockery upon mockery heaped, Vic!

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:50 PM

The reviled/despised remake starring Nicholas Cage is on Channel 5, UK, Monday 25th January, 2010, 9pm. I'll be watching, just to see if it's as bad as they say:-

Ebert & Roeper - The Wicker Man (2006) - Richard Roeper & guest critic Aisha Tyler are unintentionally amused by the 2006 Razzie-nominated horror-mystery remake The Wicker Man. ("entertainingly bad" is their agreed assessment).

I couldn't get the Teletubbies link above to work, but found various other Youtube links - Teletubbies in The Wicker Man - "Teletubbies as Pagan gods" - brilliant - I always wondered what the panels in the front were for - it all becomes clear.

Ross

Subject: RE: Film: The Wicker Man
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:57 AM

After all these years, the original ending has been posted on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHxW3INJBg4 but a word of warning - this version is not for the faint-hearted (or even the feint-hearted!)==

Even more than in previously known version I found self amazed at how loudly & articulately poor Sgt Howie cd shout with all that smoke swirling around him which he must heve been inhaling in such enormous quantities!

(;-}§ LoL