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Origin: Flower of Scotland

DigiTrad:
FLOWER OF SCOTLAND
THE FLOWER OF SCOTLAND


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Flower of Scotland (Roy Williamson) (24)
The Flower of Scotland (33)
Lyr/Chords Req: The Flower of Scotland (17)
Flower of Scotland, official? (51)
flower of Scotland (42)
Contact for permission? Flower of Scot. (7)
Donald Dewar/Flower of Scotland (20)
Tune Req: Flower of Scotland (15)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Flower of Scotland [Roy Williamson of the Corries]


Teresa 25 Jul 99 - 04:58 PM
Lesley N. 25 Jul 99 - 05:26 PM
Teresa 25 Jul 99 - 05:55 PM
John in Brisbane 25 Jul 99 - 09:59 PM
DonMeixner 25 Jul 99 - 10:48 PM
Fadac 26 Jul 99 - 10:19 AM
Lesley N. 26 Jul 99 - 07:29 PM
Celtic-End Singer 27 Jul 99 - 10:29 AM
OSh 27 Jul 99 - 12:43 PM
Len Wallace 27 Jul 99 - 05:35 PM
Celtic-End Singer 27 Jul 99 - 08:08 PM
Tucker 27 Jul 99 - 10:18 PM
Celtic-End Singer 28 Jul 99 - 05:29 PM
John Nolan 30 Jul 99 - 07:22 PM
Lesley N. 30 Jul 99 - 08:54 PM
Celtic-End Singer 30 Jul 99 - 11:20 PM
PMC 02 Aug 99 - 02:40 PM
Peregrine Scott 02 Aug 99 - 03:15 PM
knock knee'd one 05 Aug 99 - 08:50 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 05 Aug 99 - 09:16 PM
Celtic-End Singer 05 Aug 99 - 09:58 PM
Stewart,Frank 05 Aug 99 - 10:36 PM
Big Mick 05 Aug 99 - 10:53 PM
Celtic-End Singer 06 Aug 99 - 01:00 AM
Big Mick 06 Aug 99 - 06:14 AM
Celtic-End Singer 06 Aug 99 - 01:13 PM
Steve I 06 Aug 99 - 01:23 PM
Celtic-End Singer 06 Aug 99 - 02:07 PM
Steve I 06 Aug 99 - 02:22 PM
j0_77 06 Aug 99 - 03:03 PM
Celtic-End Singer 06 Aug 99 - 03:08 PM
Steve I 06 Aug 99 - 03:56 PM
j0_77 06 Aug 99 - 05:06 PM
Celtic-End Singer 06 Aug 99 - 08:52 PM
GUEST,Sheet Music 21 Aug 03 - 06:02 PM
Hillheader 21 Aug 03 - 06:10 PM
toadfrog 21 Aug 03 - 09:11 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 21 Aug 03 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,theballadeer 22 Aug 03 - 08:24 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 22 Aug 03 - 08:36 AM
Reiver 2 22 Aug 03 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Red Rabbie 23 Aug 03 - 02:30 PM
Hrothgar 24 Aug 03 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Taxman 24 Aug 03 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,RR 24 Aug 03 - 02:33 PM
Gareth 24 Aug 03 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,RR 24 Aug 03 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,joel 23 Mar 04 - 01:50 AM
GUEST,Penguin Egg 23 Mar 04 - 03:41 AM
Teribus 23 Mar 04 - 06:15 AM
Dickmac 23 Mar 04 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,at murrayfied audio anyone 10 Dec 04 - 02:05 AM
RobbieWilson 10 Dec 04 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,Bad Cuilionn...no biscuit 11 Dec 04 - 06:23 PM
RobbieWilson 12 Dec 04 - 06:59 AM
RobbieWilson 30 Jun 05 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,billy king 30 Jun 05 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Chewy 01 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM
Tradsinger 01 Apr 07 - 04:25 PM
Pistachio 02 Apr 07 - 07:48 PM
Jim Lad 02 Apr 07 - 10:35 PM
Muttley 03 Apr 07 - 12:49 AM
GUEST,meself 03 Apr 07 - 07:45 PM
Muttley 04 Apr 07 - 03:25 AM
Muttley 04 Apr 07 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,meself 04 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM
Effsee 04 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Chewy 04 Apr 07 - 04:12 PM
GUEST 05 Apr 07 - 04:37 AM
GUEST 05 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Guest 07 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM
Jack Campin 07 Dec 07 - 06:50 PM
goatfell 08 Dec 07 - 06:50 AM
eddie1 08 Dec 07 - 07:15 AM
goatfell 08 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM
Dita 08 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM
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Subject: Flower of Scotland
From: Teresa
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 04:58 PM

Hi. A few days ago, I heard a snippet of the Scottish nationalist song "The Flower of Scotland." I was struck by the tune, and I'm fascinated by the song's origin and history. I'd like to know more about it, and would like to find out who recorded it. Does anyone have ideas? Thanks Teresa


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Lesley N.
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 05:26 PM

It was written by the late Roy Williamson of the Corries (I'm not sure what year - I'm sure someone else will add to this). It's in the database if you need the lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Teresa
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 05:55 PM

Thanks, Lesley. I did find it in the database. Teresa


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 09:59 PM

Teresa, this snippet from 'The Tartan Army (cyber) Songbook may help a bit, including the link to the Corries site.

The Flower of Scotland

Written by Roy Williamson of the Corries, who sadly died a few years ago. It has been sung for us before matches by Ronnie Browne (the other half of the Corries) and Fish (of Marillion and the seaside). Whilst politicians tell us we can't have National Anthem for Scotland because it might offend the Queen, the people keep singing this song. Normally verses 1 and 3 are sung. There is a Corries HomePage here at http://www.corries.com/ where you can hear them sing the first verse of the song.

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 10:48 PM

If you visit the Corries page at the blue click in the post above you will find a photo of the Corries. Roy is the man in the foreground with the wild hair and they are playing combolins. Instruments unique to the Corries. I have a video tape of the Corries singing Flower of Scotland (About William Wallace is my guess) in a musical cut from about 1970 or before. The song has evolved considerably from this time and is done as a waltz as often as it is a 2/4 or 4/4 time piece. I guess I've done this tune fr 25 years and never tire of singing it.

Don


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Fadac
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 10:19 AM

As I understand it, the flowers of Scotland. Are the dead warriors. Each flower is a fallen lad, of someone.

Anyway, that's the rumor out here in Ca.

-Fadac


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Lesley N.
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 07:29 PM

I know that association dates back even further - it's also used with THE FLOWERS OF THE FOREST which was a poem by Jane Elliot titled "Lament for Flodden" (referring to James IV defeat and death at Flodden Field). I'm embarrassed to admit the similar titles used to confuse the heck out of me!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 10:29 AM

The song commemorates the triumph of King Robert The Bruce (Not Sir William Wallace) at the battle of Bannockburn in 1314. Where a greatly outnumbered Scottish army defeated the much stronger force of the English King Edward II (Hence "Proud Edwards Army") which had invaded the south of the country. This was accomplished primarilly by means of Bruce's careful and strategic choice of ground for the battlefield. By driving short and extremely sharp stakes into the soft ground, placed tightly together, it became impossible for the English cavalry to take the key battle area in a flanking manouvere. As heavy cavalry was the key military advantage of the English it became impossible for them to achieve victory and they were defeated. The consequence of the Bannockburn victory was to cemment the independence of the Scottish nation four nearly four centuries until The Act Of Union of 1707.

In an interesting aside, a lead casket containing what is thought to be the entombed heart of King Robert The Bruce was unearthed last year amongst the ruins of Melrose Abbey in the Borders. The casket was later re-buried at a secret location.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: OSh
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 12:43 PM

FYI - A great version of this song (IMHO) is sung by the Clancy Bros. & Robby O'Connell on the cd "Older but no wiser" Hope you get a chance to enjoy it.

OSh


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Subject: Lyr Add: FLOWER OF SCOTLAND
From: Len Wallace
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 05:35 PM

FLOWER OF SCOTLAND

Oh flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen

CHORUS:
And stood against them
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
To think again.

The trees are bare now
and autumn leaves like thick and still
For land that is lost now
That once so dearly held

CHORUS:
And stood against them
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
To think again.

Those days are past now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be a nation again
Oh flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen

CHORUS:
And stood against them
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
To think again.


CHORUS:
And stood against them
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
To think again.

The trees are bare now
and autumn leaves like thick and still
For land that is lost now
That once so dearly held

This is the way it was performed by the Corries themselves, not simply verse chorus verse chorus.

I recently heard that the song was originally written to celebrate a soccer match between Scotland and England, but became so popular that it is considered the unofficial national anthem of Scotland.

Len Wallace
lwallace@mnsi.net
Line Breaks <br> added.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 08:08 PM

Any allegation that "Flower Of Scotland" is about a football match is a damn lie! It's about the battle that won independence for our country. The only reason there is a connection with sport is that it was one of the few public places where the Scottish nation exists in a recognised form, as opposed to Britain, the United Kingdom or England.

It started to be played at Scottish rugby internationals sometime in the late eighties. Up until that point "God Save The Queen" had been sung. The Scotland Rugby Union, (Patroness Her Royal Highness Princess Anne, The Princess Royal)had to change it because in the dark days of Tory rule (which the Scots didn't vote for, by the way!)it was booed and whistled out by 65,000 people at Murrayfield stadium among other things in protest at the Poll-Tax. To avoid the SRU embarrassment they decided to play "Flower Of Scotland" in its stead. This song (which was written sometime in the sixties, by the way) became hugely popular. The sound of 65,000 Scots belting it out gives you a real lump in your throat and is said to greatly inspire the players before each game. Later the Scottish Football Association began to play the song as oppossed to "Scotland The Brave" at Scottish football (soccer) matches.

The Poll-Tax was the most violently opposseed government policy this century, (There were riots in Trafalgar Square in London, just a mile from Parliament) had been levied on Scottish people one year earlier than everyone else in the UK. This racism was not too popular as you can imagine with the Scots, hence the protests. In 1988 at The Scottish Football (soccer in American) Association Cup Final Margaret Thatcher decided she wanted to present the Trophy to the winning side. Prior to the game activists from the hard-left wing Socialist Workers' Party handed out 80,000 red cards. (In football if the referee waves a red card at you it means you have been ejected from the game.)When "The Iron Lady" took her seat 80,000 fans waved the red cards at her and launched into a 15 minute chorus of "If you hate the fuckin' Tories clap your hands!! (Much applause)" "If you hate the fuckin' Tories clap your hands!! (Much applause)" etc, etc.

It was bloody marvellous.

Glasgow Celtic won the game 2-1 beating Dundee United. Afterwards Roy Aitken, captain of the Celtic side went up to collect the trophy from Thatcher. Celtic are a team supported mostly by Catholics and Irish Immigrants and are nearly always Labour voters. After he shook hands with Thatcher he turned around to face the crowd and wiped his hand on his shirt as if he had just cleaned his toilet. The crowd cheered and cheered.

A glorious day full of gloroius events I witnessed from the terraces of Hampden park, which I will remember for ever!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Tucker
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 10:18 PM

Marvelous story Celtic-End! I would love to hear 65000 Scots sing this song! We are doing it over here in America too among our exiled-long-ago Scots and it's always a favorite. So when are you going to make it the OFFICAL national athem Laddie?


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 28 Jul 99 - 05:29 PM

I don't necessarilly believe that it ought to be the official national anthem. It harks back to days seven centuries past. I think a good national anthem ought to have a vision for the future. A good example of this was the old Soviet anthem, which expresed all the optimistic notions of egalitarianism and internationalism. "Flower of Scotland" is a good song, but I don't think it has that visionary quality. Besides, none of the British nations have an officially recognised national anthems, one of the reasons being it's hard to have one when you don't have an officially recognised nation. When we do get independence (Which won't be very long! we'll think about it then.

Incidently, the Glasgow broadsheet newspaper "The Herald" ran a competition last year asking for someone to write a new national anthem to commemorate the occasion of the inaugaration of the new Scottish Parliament. I don't know what happened to the competition, but I have not heard of a winner.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: John Nolan
Date: 30 Jul 99 - 07:22 PM

Celtic-end Singer: - The winner of the Glasgow Herald song contest can be heard at www.theherald.co.uk/sfs/sfs.html I'd be interested to know what others think of the snatch that can be downloaded. The first word that springs to my mind is "drivel" but then I've always disliked teuchter choruses tacked onto to twee English verses written by a pollster.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Lesley N.
Date: 30 Jul 99 - 08:54 PM

You've got to be kidding... As a NATIONAL ANTHEM? Can't see that as rousing any strong emotion except boredom at functions...

Flower of Scotland has my vote... and my great-grandfather was Scottish so I should probably get 1/8th (or whatever portion of blood that is) of a vote at least!


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Subject: Lyr Add: A MAN'S A MAN FOR A' THAT (Robert Burns)
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 30 Jul 99 - 11:20 PM

I've heard worse. But I have to agree, never National Anthem class. You see, it's like I was saying, that song was just about what Scotland is (Glens, rivers and all that). It wasn't about what Scotland could be. A free, independent, socially just, modern European nation with liberty and equality for all. This is why the best nation anthems are those which are written after major historical events.

The Soviet anthem I mentioned is like this, written after the October revolution; it's all about the passion of that bold, new confident social philosophy which was National Socialism. The American anthem was written after a US victory over the British in a battle at Baltimore. The Irish national anthem was written after the '23. The Spanish couldn't agree to the words of their national anthem after the civil war and still don't have any, the song says so much about Spain because of that, and so on.

As far as historical events in Scotland go, the biggest won for 300 years since the act of Union was last month when the Parliament reconvened after 292 years of Westminster rule. What really moved me recently was when the SNP (Scottish National Party- Left wing independence party and official opposition to the Government in Scotland) had their way at the new Parliament's opening ceremony and Robert Burns' brilliant anthem to Scottish and internationalist egalitarianism was sung. It brought nationalist tears to my eye. I posted it below; let me know what you think.


A MAN'S A MAN FOR A' THAT
(Robert Burns)

Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, and a' that?
The coward-slave, we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, and a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that!

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, and a' that;
Gie fools their silks and knaves their wine,
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, and a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that!

Ye see yon birkie ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, and stares, and a' that,
Though hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
His ribband, star and a' that;
The man of independent mind
He looks and laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke and a' that;
But an honest man's aboon his might-
Gude faith, he mauna fa' that!
For a' that, and a' that,
Their dignities, and a' that;
The pith o' sense and pride o' worth
Are higher rank than a' that!

Then let us pray that come it may-
As come it will for a' that-
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
May bear the gree, and a' that.
For a' that, and a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That Man to Man the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that!

hings = hangs
a'that = all that
hamely = homely
hoddin grey = course home-made woollen cloth
birkie = lad, fellow
ca'd = called
coof = fool, ninny
mak = make
aboon = above
Gude = good
maunna fa' = must not
bear the gree = bear the supremacy

I love it dearly!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: PMC
Date: 02 Aug 99 - 02:40 PM

Its about time us Scots came to know the songs of Rabbie Burns as most of us know nothing about him or his work. I was very happy that 'A man's a man for a' that' should cause such a stir. By the way, Ian F. Benzie from Old Blind Dogs sings the song beautifully in 'The Complete Songs of Robert Burns - Volume 5'. Definately worthy of being our national anthem I would say.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Peregrine Scott
Date: 02 Aug 99 - 03:15 PM

what about FREEDOM COME ALL YE by Hamish Henderson ? I've heard Dick Gaughan propose it as an anthem for Scotland


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: knock knee'd one
Date: 05 Aug 99 - 08:50 PM

Just like to correct one word ith the second verse of the flower of Scotland song It goes the HILLS are bare now and autumn leaves etc.

Hope you understand the the hills are bare because no men are left after the battles to look after the crofts. The highland clearances saw off the rest.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 05 Aug 99 - 09:16 PM

Just out of curiosity, would it (in the same verse) make more sense if it said "autumn leave LIE" rather than LIKE?


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 05 Aug 99 - 09:58 PM

In a word, yes. It should also be "..And stood against HIM, Proud Edward's army"


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Stewart,Frank
Date: 05 Aug 99 - 10:36 PM

o'er land that.....,I know it's getting too much but what the heck.By the way,spare us the "fitba'"lessons


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Aug 99 - 10:53 PM

Just a note from a lurker. I love this thread...CES, I feel like your observations are right on the mark. We will all celebrate the day that Scotland again takes her rightful place in the community of nations. And may your vision of her as "A free, independent, socially just, modern European nation with liberty and equality for all" be realized. I admire your vision and style.

All the best,

Big Mick


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 01:00 AM

Cheers Mick, as one nationalist republican to another I hope and pray the six counties win their freedom soon. Hands across the water and all that.

By the way Stewart, Frank, I didn't bring up the football, someone else did, in answer to a question about the history of the song and a claim it was a football chant. I was trying to bring people a bit of knowledge they previously didn't have and were actively seeking. That's the whole idea of the thread! My point was relevant, about social populism and political protest being manifest in song. That is surely one of the enduring charms of a great deal of folk music and relevant to the discussion by placing it in it's societal context. What gives you the right to tell me wether I should teach lessons or not? I wasn't preaching, I was recounting a pertinent anecdote which several poeple who read this thread were motivated enough to praise. It didn't cost you anything! We are all entitled to a little free speech here (Just ask Big Mick if you don't believe me)Stop being so authoritarian.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 06:14 AM

Well said, once again, CES. If certain folks translate "being civil" to not discussing delicate subjects, then they missed the point of our little skirmish of a month or so ago. The facts are that you have said nothing offensive, rather you just expressed your opinion. And a damn fine opinion as well, IMHO.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 01:13 PM

Thanks mate, without wishing to regurgitate old arguments there's nothing wrong with open and honest debate, that's the best way to explore topics and maybe learn somehting. Even if there's disagreement it is always worthwhile to maybe try and understand someone's opinion, regardless of wether you accept it or not.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Steve I
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 01:23 PM

As an Ex-Pat Englishman, now living in America, I'd like to add my 5 cents worth if I may. Even though some may not actually believe it, this Englishmen for one agrees 100% with CES. The poll tax was probably the worst thought out, most unpopular tax ever. To have been pushed through like it was displayed the absolute arrogance of a political party, and a leader who in the end turned from democrat to dictator. Being a pretty much lifelong "Tory" (Translation: Conservative) I had always up to that point supported the party. Being also a career military man, I believed the Tories were better for us. However the Poll Tax, or whatever caused me to change my allegiences overnight. I now live here, happy in my decision to quit the country of my birth. However I wish Scotland, her people every success for their futures. Once again in agreement with CES, I think Scotland deserves a more forward thinking, rather than historical, National Anthem. Sooner rather than later, it is hoped. PS Long live Football.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 02:07 PM

Nice perspective Steve, and I agree 100%. But I think what really got us mad in Scotland was not simply that it was unjust, but that they applied the injustice so unfairly by imposing it on the Scots two years before everyone else. Obviously we didn't like it much and protested, but what really added insult to injury was that the government didn't give a toss what we thought of things, no matter how many marches there were, no matter how many poeple went to jail rather than pay, no matter how many pensioners had their property seized because they couldn't pay. When the Tories only had 4 Parliamentary seats in Scotland they had nothing to lose. But as soon as the the first English policeman gets a bloody nose in London they immediately done a complete 'bout face and scrapped the thing pretty much overnight. When the government simply refuses to listen to you, it's hardly surprising they want their own government.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Steve I
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 02:22 PM

Yes, CES you have it pretty much down. I remember there being an enormous public outcry at the riots! Since the government for over 200 years has been saying such things as "Scotland, Ireland and Wales are part of the United Kingdom" I wonder why it was introduced into Scotland first. It is my belief (perhaps cynically) that the introduction of this tax into Scotland was a "test the water" type of ploy. I truly believe that they [the government] never realized what would result.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: j0_77
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 03:03 PM

Great read - thanx - I really love the Burns song :) Where can I hear it


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 03:08 PM

Again I agree with you to some extent, Steve. They decided they wanted some guinnea-pigs to try this thing out on and we were a convenient, marginalised, out of the way place where no-one would care too much. They've done it so many times: Trident nuclear submarines in the Clyde, the closure of the Ravenscraig steel works, the systematic dismantling of our industruies, the plunder of North Sea oil, the clearly dangerous Dounrey nuclear waste reprocessing plant. The Tories could get away with anything here because no-one here voted for them (Peak 14% of the vote) and they had no votes to lose. But I think it was also a blatant example of a previously more subtle racism. Pure and simple. They exploited the existence of Scotland's seperate legal system and local government system in order to excuse specifically Scottish legislation.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Steve I
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 03:56 PM

Man is this turning out to be a 2 way conversation? A mutual admiration society! Ah well, 'tis a pretty rare thing for a Scot and Brit to agree......I for one had as much sympathy for the islanders (Hebrides and Orkney) actually nearer Norway than London. Imagine how they must have felt with the oil and gas explosion (so to speak) I think it is fair to say though (and correct me if I am wrong) but didn't Aberdeen do fairly well out of the whole North Sea Oil and Gas stuff. I did spend some time at the naval base near Edinburgh (you perhaps remember the drunken sailors cavorting at the Commonwealth Games in 1970, but thats another story) and the local people always seemed to be appreciative of the buisness that the base provided. That does not excuse the exploitation, but the poor simple sailor goes where the government sends him whether its nukes on the Clyde or Frigates in Rosyth. Anyway did I miss the point? I think its also fair to say that the whole blame for Clyde nukes and Dounrey cannot be laid at the feet of the Tories only. Successive Labor governments had their chance to close or make such establishments less exploitive, but didn't. Labor itself was responsible for scrapping and laying off of hundreds of soldiers, sailors and airmen. The decommissioning of their equipment, but not the closing of the nuke bases in Scotland. I think at the time considerable pressure was placed upon the UK government by NATO to keep them open; the reasons for which are not really for discussion on this forum. That pressure however was too strong to resist, despite considerable opposition from Scotland. Anyway whatever. I'll go now........


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: j0_77
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 05:06 PM

Ireland for the most part a free and seperate country, Northern Ireland having a civil war - the Tories had no other choice except Wales - tooo near London I fear. I have a remoter who plays with ma puter - usualy leaves me be but today as I tried to read this thread 'it' got most upset disconnecting me 2 times and playing with ma nouse. Is the 'Wee Fleur' such a hot song it causes Mericans to phreakk out and get wild. (To my shadow Oh fore I forget - one of dem days *Y*O*U* are going to get caught and get this - Penalty is 5 years in the Pen and $50,000=00 fine=You loose yer house too)


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 06 Aug 99 - 08:52 PM

Before you go Steve, I hate the Labour party more than I hate the Tories. The Tories are gits, but at least they're consistant, principled gits. The Labour party are just shameless power-hungry control freaks whose only philosophy is "Do whatever, as long as we stay in power". It's just as well Blair doesn't have a grandmother because he would have sold her already. He's sold out every old fashioned traditional socialist in the land. (University tuition fees, private finance initiative, lack of nuclear disarmament, senseless slaughter of innocent Serbians, cuts in social security for the disabled, pensioners and single mothers, abandonment of the nationalists in Northern Ireland.) For a guy who was once a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament he seems remarkably stalwart in his defence of the Trident killing machines. Your NATO point is very valid, he's just nominated Secretary of State for Defence George Robertson, probably the most right-wing sabre-rattler in the cabinet, as the new NATO president. Need we say more?

Incidently, Aberdeen may have done alright out of North Sea oil but London did better. (31 billion pounds better according to Tory ex-Cheif Secretary To The Treasurey William Waldegrave in The House Of Commons, 11.1.94) Besides I can't think of any other country in the world that has discovered oil in it's territory and has since got poorer.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Sheet Music
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 06:02 PM

Where can I get the sheet music to "flower of Scotland"?
Thanks
Wendy
wenando@ozemail.com.au


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Subject: Lyr Add: SCOTLAND WILL FLOURISH (from The Corries)
From: Hillheader
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 06:10 PM

Here's another Corries song which COULD be a National Anthem. Looks forward and not back.


SCOTLAND WILL FLOURISH

Scotland will flourish by the sweat of our labour,
The strength of our will and the force of our mind.
Forget the old battles. Those days are over.
Hatred corrupts and friendship refines.

Let the Scots be a nation all proud of their heritage,
With an eye to the future and a heart to forgive;
And let us be rid of those bigots and fools
Who will not let Scotland live and let live.

Let the Scots rule their country wisely and fairly.
Let each man and woman work way they will,
And Scotland will flourish secure in the knowledge
That we reap our own harvest and ring our own till.

And let us be known for our kind hospitality,
A hand that is openly proffered to friends.
A hardworking people proud and unbending,
Scotland will thrive and win out in the end.

Scotland will flourish by the sweat of our labour,
The strength of our will and the force of our mind.
Forget the old battles. Those days are over.
Hatred corrupts and friendship refines.

So let us be known for our kind hospitality,
A hand that is openly proffered to friends.
A hardworking people proud and unbending,
Scotland will thrive and win out in the end.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: toadfrog
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 09:11 PM

I think the basic criterion for a national anthem is that it should be bland and boring. So far as I am aware, the only Soviet national anthem was "Long Live Our Soviet Motherland (Built by the Workers' Mighty Hand)" which Stalin commissioned during or shortly before WW II.

The American national anthem is an exception that proves the rule, for the usual criticism is that it is not bland and boring enough. Many have suggested America the Beautiful which is as dull as the medium will permit, with words and a tune that sound like they were composed by a music ed teacher. God Save the Queeen, sung to the tune of Heil dir im Siegerkranz is certainly boring enough to satisfy anyone (except for the part about "confounding her enemies," which I understand is little sung).

When I first heard With Voices Together We Sing it was characterized as the "Black national anthem." I had 3 thoughts
(1) How ignorant was I not to know this!
(2) Boy, what a BORING song! Just right for a national anthem! And (3) the ethnic group that gave us A Train can do a whole lot better than this!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 09:54 PM

Wendy, try the Corries Song Book. See one of the messages in this thread on Corries Song Lyrics


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,theballadeer
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 08:24 AM

Click here for Flower of Scotland sheet music.

Gavin Browne's (Ronnie's son) run the offical Corries site.

Nick


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 08:36 AM

Thanks Balladeer.

E-mail sent to Wendy.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Reiver 2
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 12:41 PM

Most interesting thread... I've enjoyed reading through it. A few comments:

# Loved the football story. Context of information is always important.

# Always enjoyed singing and hearing "Flower of Scotland". Always introduced it as having recently been regarded as the "unofficial national anthem of the Scottish independence movement" or words to that effect.

# I'm not totally convinced of the need for "official" national anthems. Are they really that important? Our U.S. national anthem is a terrible piece of music (not sure it deserves to be called music, actually.) I've always regarded Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land" as the best choice for a U.S. anthem, if we have to have one. Musically, "Hail To The Chief" is much superior to the "Star Spangled Banner", but the words are not what I'd choose.

# Based on the lyrics alone, Burns' "A Man's A Man For A' That" would be an almost perfect national anthem (for ANY country -- but, of course it rightfully "belongs" to Scotland.) The music is OK, but not exceptional... a really great n.a. should be a little more stirring, I think (just my opinion). I also really like the lyrics to the other Roy Williamson song, but am not familiar with the melody.

# As an aside - it's nice to read through a thread here at the Mudcat where the Corries are not bad-mouthed by some supercilious folk-purists. Maybe that bad-mouthing of a great singing duo has lessened recently, but a couple of years ago was rampant.

# Which is most important for a national anthem, the music or the words? Ideally, both, I'd think. Of existing national anthems I'd be inclined to give my vote to Les Marseillaise. The feeling that is evoked when the French patrons at Ricks sing it and override the Nazi singers in "Casablanca" is profound. (Almost like the feeling evoked by 65,000 Scots singing "Flower Of Scotland." Would love to have heard that!)

Reiver 2


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Red Rabbie
Date: 23 Aug 03 - 02:30 PM

Great thread.

CES .. you have said a lot of really interesting things, and I seem to agree with you on everything (?). Perhaps I should re-read !

I am a Scot so I'll add that I agree we should have a national anthem that looks to the future and doesn't deal with a military battle we won 700 years ago. Aye, I love the song, but surely "us" having beaten the English is not the only thing we have to build a nation on.

I do believe in Scottish independence, but ONLY because I think that most Scots would vote for a Socialist Republic and I can't see that happening in the UK.

As far as the poll tax is concerned, I do think they were trying to test the waters with us Scots, and they made a BIG mistake. One day I will never forget is the day we boarded a double decker bus to take us to Janette McGinn's house to have a garden party, in honour of the Sherrif's Officers that were coming to poind her furniture to pay her poll tax debt. Funnily enough they never turned up !

Talking of Janette McGinn, socialism and republicanism, isn't it a pity that her late husband, Matt McGinn never wrote a national anthem fitting of his people ? He would have made a grand job of it. Since that isn't the case I think we should stick to A Man's a Man for a' that.

Red Rabbie


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Hrothgar
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 04:22 AM

A bit of thread creep ... I didn't see this first time around.

The story I heard about the heart of Robert the Bruce was that James Douglas, aka the Black Douglas, Bruce's long-term associate, was taking the heart to the Holy Land in part fulfilment of an old promise of Bruce's to go on a Crusade. Dougles visited Spain on the way, and became involved in a battle against the Moors (they were infidels, too). He was heavily outnumbered, and facing certain death. He threw the casket containing the heart of Bruce deep into the enemy ranks, charged after it, and was killed.

Now, how did that heart get back to Melrose?


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Taxman
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 07:09 AM

The reason that the poll tax was instituted in Scotland first - and perhaps why it was brought in at all was more mundane than English Tories wanting to kick us first. Scotland had a rating revaluation (i.e. the values of properties was re-assesed) and this value was what the old rating system was based on. Needless to say the new values were higher than the previous ones. This led to a higher tax base and most councils did not re-adjust there %age rate on the property values. Nice hike in local authority income and no blame on local councillors except perhaps for economic and political niavety. This led to people paying much higher rates and being very pissed off about it. Some felt all should pay the same or any system that would lead to them paying less. Many protests, non-payers, etc. Perhaps there were few Tory seats in Scotland, and perhaps few Tory (or "Independent" as they coyly call themselves)councillors in Scotland but they like to retain a wee bit credibility. They needed to keep a few to retain credibility and they own all the land and wield most of the power regardless of who you elect. So in the hope of calming things down North of the Border they brought in a system under consideration earlier than planned. It was thought that this would avoid a similar rebellion nationwide if they had allowed the planned re-valluation of English properties to take place. Politicains aren't always smart.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,RR
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 02:33 PM

Does anybody happen to know the statistics on how many Scottish people did / do vote Tory ? I seem to remember extremely low Scottish Tory sets in parliament, like maybe one during the Thatcher era ? Can't be surely.

I have come across quite a few, well, let's say "non-smart "politicians in my day. However, I do think that their actions are rarely "accidents".

Does anybody have details on the Scottish Socialist Party's alternative to the council Tax ? I think it was made up by a team at Paisley University ?


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 03:02 PM

GUEST,RR

If you hit the site for the University of Warick at Keele Click 'Ere or this results site here you should find enough facts and figures to keep any serious sudent of UK politics happy.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,RR
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 03:39 PM

Ta much for the links, Gareth !


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,joel
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 01:50 AM

hey u all sux the fuckin scottland flower is shit


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:41 AM

Fascinating thread but I seem to remember that Flower of Scotland was used as the National Song for the British Lions during a tour they did in the 70s. Why they didn't use God Save the Queen, I don't know. It seems a strange choice. A song about Scotland representing the whole of the UK? However, it must have been nice to have seen people sing it who are not Scots as it shows the universal appeal of the song. It is, afterall, a moving song that reaches out further than a small nationalist fan-base.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:15 AM

Guest Penguin Egg,

Before the "Lions" tour, the team Captain Willie John McBride, asked the players for suggestions for a "team song" for the tour - one that the whole team could sing if asked (dinners/receptions/social occasions). Steele and another Scottish player (sorry can't remember his name) proposed "Flower of Scotland". I think W-JM liked the song in general and its message that sometimes the "under-dogs" do win - if memory olso serves me correctly this was the tour that became better known as the "ninety-nine tour" and that had nothing to do with the year.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Dickmac
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 01:10 PM

The other Scot was the late Gordon Brown - "Broon frae Troon" and if my memory serves me right it was he who was the choirmaster. Penguin Egg is right it was the "ninety nine tour" which I'm not going to explain to the non rugby catters as it will give them the wrong impression about rugby and rugby players.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,at murrayfied audio anyone
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:05 AM

One time I heard thsi sung at Murrayfield edinburgh befor th England Scoytland ugby game- goosebumps..any links to thsi wonderful rendition- of 50,000 scots..


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:57 PM

This song has pissed me off ever since it started being sung at rugby matches in the late 70s. It was part of a fashion for bogus heritage and tartan "culture" which I really resented being constantly told I should take more pride in.

90% of Scottish people live in the industrial lowlands between Glasgow and Edinburgh and had never been near a wee bit hill and glen, never mind had one of their own. Suddenly men had to wear a kilt for weddings, because it was our heritage. Bollocks. I never saw my father in a kilt before 1976 and I never saw his father or any of his elder brothers in one in their lives. The party frock that people wear these days is a victorian colonial invention.

The song itself is a good song, like so many about generations of Scots lads who died following one Royal shyster or another, but has been usurped into a feelgood, glory of fighting, anthem. It is a song I am frequently harangued into singing or singing along to and have always followed by Burns' Ye Jacobites by Name, a genuine old song and one which recognizes the folly of following these noble leaders as they squabble amongst themselves to decides who owns the plebs.

You have to know your past to look to your future, but it has to be more than a shortbread box cartoon view of where we come from. Brian Mc Neil says it pretty well in "No gods and precious few heroes. Check it out.

ps while I'm in rant mode Douggie McLean,Caledonia do me a favour. I'm 48 years old and have never heard anyone even refer to Caledonia much less say it means everything to them. x


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Bad Cuilionn...no biscuit
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 06:23 PM

Radio Scotland's Lesley Riddoch, who hosts a current-affairs talk show, recently opened up her call-in show to a discussion of possible National Anthems for Scotland. Many were in favour of Hamish Henderson's masterful "Freedom Come-All-Ye" (mentioned above) and sang it over the phone with unstinting joy & pride as soon as they were asked. The song has my vote, too-- it is the most forward-looking, historically-aware, musically uplifting, singable, and profoundly poetic piece I've ever heard, and it reaches beyond the boundaries as a celebration of all humanity, not just the "brave victors" or "tragic victims" of Scotland's past.

--Cuilionn


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:59 AM

Cuilionn, couldn't agree more.
Robbie


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 04:21 AM

Always good to see a bit of reasoned comment.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,billy king
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:14 AM

ach....never mind flower of scotland, it only goes back to the 1960's
Give us a real Scottish trad song........like "The Sash!"


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Chewy
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

I don't know if anyone will ever see this as the thread goes back to 1999.

Firstly, ignore that last post from that bigoted muppet, the sash indeed. If you had half a brain you'd be dangerous. 1960s? The Flower of Scotland dates back to 1314 ye clown.

More importantly, I'd like to correct a serious mistake that so many people seem to make when singing this song. The lyrics in the 3rd verse are as follows

"for we can still rise now, and be THE nation again that stood against him"

It is not "a nation again". Anyone who tries to tell you differently plainly doesn't have a clue what they're talking about and has never seen the lyrics as written by Roy Williamson.

Scotland is already a nation, it's just that we've lost our way a little, and we need to show the same passion that led us to independence in the 14th century. That's what that line is about!!!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Tradsinger
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 04:25 PM

Am I right in thinking that the last phrase of the song should have a flattened seventh on the word 'think', thus giving the tune a mixolydian flavour? If so, then it is always sung 'wrong' at rugby matches. Grates with me.

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Pistachio
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 07:48 PM

You are correct...I notice the flaw all the time. Not being a musician I couldn't explain the flattened seventh but being a Scot and Corries fan I always sing it that way unless I get drowned out by those joining in!
Reading through the thread I can well remember the magnificent sound of 65000 voices at Murrayfield, mine was one of them.
H.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:35 PM

That was quite the day. 1989 or 90. Roy Williamson was seriously ill at the time.
The particular note, which was the first thing i noticed when I first heard the song, doesn't exist on the chanter. Sounds awful the way the pipers play it and I think that is what drives people to sing it differently.
Does that make any sense at all?


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Muttley
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:49 AM

Hrothgar; It was said that, though the Douglas was killed in that Crusade; one of his kin fought his way through the Moors and retrieved the casket Douglas hurled and carried it home to Melrose.

However, whether THAT Douglas was, indeed, "The Black Douglas" is open to debate.

There may have been several and, in fact the head of the clan may also have inherited the soubriquet along with the title of Earl - but it is unlikely that the one who hurled Bruce's heart was one of them

I will explain my reasoning:

Following is a precis of some information I picked up while touring Stirling Castle in late '05.

The garden which lies at the western end of "The King's Old Building" is known as 'The Douglas Garden' or 'The Black Douglas Garden'. It was onto this patch of ground that the body of William, the 8th Earl of Douglas was hurled in 1452 after having died at the hands of James II for refusing to break alliances James felt to be "against Royal Interests".
Apparently THIS Earl of Douglas was said to have been the type of personality who could offend one simply by riding past the end of their street - he was according to tradition "the most objectionable, haughty and arrogant man in the realm".
Records have it that James asked him to comply and he, typically and arrogantly refused and proceeded to upbraid his king, who thereupon "ripped him from navel to throat wi' his dirk". Other courtiers joined in and the luckless Earl's body was then tossed to the ground from a convenient window of the building which preceeded the "King's Old Building" on that site. Where he landed is now the "Douglas / Black Douglas Garden". This 8th Earl was aid to be the first referred to as "The Black Douglas"; apparently because of his objectionable personality.

So, given that the Douglas who attended the Crusade against the Moors in Spain did so in the early 1330's following The Bruce's death in 1329 while the latter, 8th Earl, was murdered about 120 years and 4 kings later and was the first (reputedly) to be referred to as "The Black" - it's unlikely the Crusading Earl was also The Black Douglas.

Muttley


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:45 PM

Perhaps the Crusading Earl came back from Spain with one heck of a suntan, and was thus for a season, "The Black" ...


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Muttley
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 03:25 AM

Not if he got killed there!!!!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Muttley
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 03:59 AM

Despite Stirling Castle's claim that the 8th Earl was the original 'Black Douglas' - several other sites on the web also allude to James Douglas being "The Black". James was a companion of Bruce's throughout his campaign to rid Scotland of Edward and his armies and was with him at Bannockburn. Indeed it was reportedly James who upbraided Robert after killing Henry de Bohun prior to the Battle.
The reason for the upbraiding:
Henry saw a knight sitting on a palfrey (a smaller riding horse as opposed to one of the massive warhorses / chargers knights customarily sat during battle) well away from his forces and noting only that the knight was also'sans armour' wearing only chain mail and helm - he was not, according to contemporary descriptions, even carrying a shield! De Bohun noticed also that the knight's helm had a gold 'coronet' or circlet rivetted to it. The vulnerable knight being none other than Robert himself.
Without challenge or warning, Henry lowered his lance and charged - a despicable act in that battle had not been "declared" at that stage and de Bohun issued no challenge; as he was rightly required to do prior to attacking.

Robert could not help but hear the charge of the warhorse and so faced him and drew his only weapon, a battle-axe, and calmly awaited de Bohuns lance. At the last second Bruce "danced" his palfrey out of the way, de Bohun missed with the lance, and Bruce, standing up in his stirrups, brought his battle-axe around in a two-handed blow, splitting de Bohun's head in two.

Thus after defeating de Bohun, Douglas apparently 'rounded Bruce off' for putting himself at such peril and risking everything they had achieved. Bruce's only reply was reputedly that he looked mournful and lamented that "I broke my favourite axe!!!"

However, it was apparently at that point when Bruce decided the battle would be fought on the field of Bannockburn. Prior to this he was contemplating other ground. After such a decisive victory in his single-combat he decided the Lord had decreed "This is the Place" and so he arranged his troops on the higher ground and forced Edward to advance his troops across the face of the "Carse of Bannock Burn". A 'carse' is an area of ground braided by streams which is (usually) wet and boggy in winter and early spring, but hard and dry in summer. June 23 / 24 is DEFINITELY winter!!!!

Robert then using speed and versatility and the ability to quickly reposition his smaller army to advantage, attacked and broke the English Army of 20,000 men (Bruce commanded about a third that number) driving them into the carse where thousands were annihilated. It was said that the deeply boggy carse was so thickly carpeted with English bodies that its several hundred yards of expanse could be traversed dry-footed by stepping on the bodies of slain and smothered English soldiers.

In a way it was a little like the way that Wallace defeated Edward's father's (Edward Longshanks)army at the Battle of Stirling Bridge. Trapping them and annihilating the heaviest elements - the cavalry.

It was a lesson that the English took to heart as they employed a similar tactic at Agincourt, where the French knights were forced to attack across boggy, muddy ground and lost their advantage by the heaviness of the ground and being bottle-necked in their charge towards the English lines. The English archers therefore picked off the horses as much as the knights and then dropping their bows, they waded in and wearing only light gear and employing nasty lead 'sledges', they proceeded to brain anu live fallen knights and any still a-horse were rendered ineffective and and dragged to earth and sledged to death.

Muttley


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM

"Not if he got killed there!!!!"

Some spoil-sport always has to come along and confuse the truth with facts ... Good thing I don't have my sledge handy ...


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: Effsee
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM

"June 23 / 24 is DEFINITELY winter!!!!"... eh?


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Chewy
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 04:12 PM

The problem with playing FoS on the pipes is that it wasn't written for that scale. The flattened 7th (I'll take your word for that by the way) can only be represented on the pipes by playing what we pipers call a C natural, basically a flattened C but not a C flat, which is of course is a B.

The C natural just sounds like you've played a bum note, it doesn't sound all that good at all, so I think most of us play a normal C because it's the lesser of the two evils. It's not their fault, it's just not a pipe tune, not a Great Highland Bagpipe tune anyway. Great song though!!


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:37 AM

I'm sorry to disagree Chewy but if you take any pipe music book and try to play the tunes on, say a piano, then C and F are always sharp.


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Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

Chewy, a C natural is a C which isn't sharpened or flattened. On the chanter it is actually a C sharp.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM

For me it is a pity that this song does not commemorate Wallace who is a more inspirational freedom fighter in my opinion.

Bruce's allegiences changed in a self-serving manner and he tricked his rival Comyn into a meeting under truce before murdering him at the altar of a church.

Also the English king defeated by Wallace at Stirling Bridge (Edward I) was far more deserving of the title "proud Edward" than his son Edward II who Bruce defeated at Bannockburn.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:50 PM

Incidentally the tune for "Flower of Scotland" is based on the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's opera "Nabucco". Given what that chorus is about, and its status as a pan-nationalist anthem across much of Europe in the decades after it was written, it seems quite plausible that the borrowing was intentional.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 06:50 AM

Freedom Come all ye, was written by Hamish Henderson after hearing a speech by Harold McMillan when he come back from South Africa and did his 'the winds of change is blowing through Africa speech' and Hamish wrote this song as an response to that speech, so Freedom come all ye is all about Africa and has nothing to do with Scotland.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: eddie1
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:15 AM

Gee thanks for that Tom. Obviously I was a bit wrong in my understanding of "The Freedom Come-all-ye."

Presumably the Broomielaw referred to is on The Orange River and the Springburn where McClean meets with his friends is that well-known district in Jo'burg?

If you had stood beside me when a then 80 year-old Hamish Henderson sang that song, unaccompanied, to an audience of about 200,000 young people who had really come to hear rock and yet kept so quiet you could have heard the proverbial pin drop then you might have a different viewpoint

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM

And perhaps is also about what the Scots did in Africa as well.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Dita
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM

I think that Hamish believed, that to be a Nationalist, you had first to be an Inernationalist.


On another topic the British Anthem "God save the King/Queen", was an anti-Jacobite song written as Bonnie Prince Charlie was invading England. It has anti-Scots sentiments, and up until the Sixties appeared in hymn books in Scottish schools with the anti-Scots verse

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

John


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:01 AM

Mm, Dita, and conversely:

Go bheicfeadh an lá a mbeidh ár ar Shasanaigh
Ughaim ar a ndroim is iad ag treabhadh is ag branar dúinn
Gan mise a bheith ann mura dteannam an maide leo


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: eddie1
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 02:14 PM

Sorry Arran - do you now mean it does have something to do with Scotland?

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Dita
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:45 AM

eddie1,
I don't know what Arran thinks, but I know for a fact that whether Hamish was writing about Noth Africa, Italy, South Africa, or translating Gramisi, all of his writing had Scotland at it's heart.

John


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: eddie1
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM

Thanks John

We're getting in to total thread creep here but Hamish was a true internationalist and nationalist. The sheer power of the man was somewthing I've never experienced from anyone else.
If Scotland does need a new national anthem then Freedom Come-all-ye is the one.

Apologies to anyone annoyed by the thread creep.

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,The Shieldwolf
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:10 AM

Here Here! I have been always fer the Scots Nation. And Pray that all will come again, but "Peacefully!" Trust, Faith, Happiness, Indivuality,and Freedom! returned


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Subject: ADD: The John MacLean March
From: GUEST,red phantom
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

broomielaw is a reference to "the john maclean march",socialist agitator from WW1.its another hamish henderson penned song.

The John MacLean March
(Hamish Henderson)

Hey Mac did ye see him as ye cam in by Gorgie,
Awa ower the Lammerlaw and north o' the Tay ?
Yon man is comin' and the hale toon is turnin' oot,
We're a' sure he'll win back to Glasgow the day.

The jiners and hauders-on are marchin' fae Clydebank,
Come on noo and hear him, he'll be ower thrang tae bide.
Turn oot Jock and Jimmie, leave yer crane and yer muckle gantries
Great John Maclean's comin' back tae the Clyde.

Argyle Street and London Road's the route that we're marchin'
The lads frae the Broomielaw are here tae a man.
Hey, Neil, whaur's yer hoderums, ye big Hielan teuchter?.
Get yer pipes oot and march at the heid o'the clan!

Hallo Pat Malone, I knew you'd be here so
The red and the green we will wear side by side,
Gorbals is his the day and Glasgow belangs tae him,
Noo great John Maclean's comin' hame tae the Clyde.

Forward tae Glasgow Green we'll march in guid order,
Will grips his banner weel, that boy isna blate,
Aye there man, that's Johnny noo, that's him there, the bonnie fechter
Lenin's his fere, Mac, and Leibnecht his mate.

Tak tent when he's speakin' for they'll mind whit he said here
In Glasgow our city and the hale world beside.
Hey, man, the scarlet's bonnie, here's tae ye Hielan' Johnny!
Oor John Maclean has come hame to the Clyde.

Ah weel noo its finished, I'm awa hame tae Springburn,
Come hame tae yer tea, John, we'll soon hae ye fed!
It's hard wark the speakin', ach! I'm sure he'll be tired the nicht,
I'll lie on the flair, Mac, and gie John the bed.

The hale city's quiet noo, It kens that he's restin'
At hame wi'his Glasgow freens, their joy and their pride.
The red will be worn again and Scotland will march again,
Noo great John Maclean has come hame tae the Clyde.

Recorded by Dick Gaughan on No More Forever; by Alex Campbell on Folk
    Friends 2
Note: John Maclean was a Socialist who was jailed for anti-war activities
    in the 30's. He was released, and, reportedly, 100,000 people turned
    out in the streets of Glasgow to pay tribute to him.

im new toi ther thread but what celtic end was sayin was true , i ws there from the dundee utd end.(anither irish catholic team,although we don't wave it from the roof tops like celtic do.
I thought our best song that day was,while holding up the said red cards was "denis thatchers' wifes' a hoor"


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:20 PM

It *isn't* referring to the other song, it's just referring to the Broomielaw, which used to be an important port of embarkation, in this case for soldiers going to fight in imperial wars.

Maclean was imprisoned in 1918 and died in 1923, from illness resulting from his imprisonment.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Hugh
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM

It's about overcoming tyranny and oppression and standing up to huge odds to do so. It's about protecting the small precious things in life rather than being swallowed up by imperialism and empires. Scotland, bloody hell it's a contentious family. It's about what you can do when you unite against a common enemy and how little of a United force you need to overcome tremendous odds. 5 million Scots and the country still exists and puts a thistle into its neighbour who is much larger and takes all the praise on the world stage. It's about peace and quiet and living life without being bothered by nonsense of world domination. Ahh whatever.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Flower of Scotland
From: GUEST,Hugh
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 10:11 AM

It's about Esau and Jacob.


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