Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS

Subject: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Chet W.
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 07:03 PM

OK, so I'm known and sometimes barely tolerated for the big ideas; Here's one. In all of our troubles lately on the mudcat, there has been a lot of talk about freedom of speech. I hold this freedom dear myself, and am willing to fight for it, but, and here's the glitch, it doesn't mean a damn thing without the responsibilities that go with it.

Civilization is not the natural state of humankind. It was an invention, developed over thousands of years, that made it unnecessary to deal with violence, the violence that comes with being a part of nature itself, on a daily basis. Look at the other animals; those that are not very lucky are predators or prey, have to fight for territory/reproductive rights/survival/food supply, die from natural occurrences, including disease. Civilization, which may or may not have been a mistake, made it possible to live, whether in peace and plenty or abject misery, at least with the notion that their lives were not on the line every minute of every day.

Having established civilization, we found ourselves with the sticky problem that those natural, violent, predatory, to hell with everybody else tendencies often re-arose. There were murders, often over wealth (food supply), sexual partners (reproductive rights) and all manner of natural human needs. Babies exhibit a lot of these natural tendencies. Selfishness is unarguably a survival strategy. So is destroying the competition. Laws had to be created if civilization were to survive. Again, maybe it shouldn't have.

Then we come to civilizations highest attainment, democracy. (skipping a hell of a lot of history here). Humans decided to further the concept by giving everybody rights and more freedoms, many of which, in practice, we still didn't get to enjoy as much as we thought we should. One thing became clear early on, though; If there are to be rights, there must be responsibilities attached to them. Otherwise I might use my freedom to molest others. So if I did, that right had to be taken away, hopefully only from me.

Then we come to democracy's highest attainment (at least at the time), the US constitution. The bill of rights, freedom of speech and the others. Here again, we had to learn that the rights meant nothing without the responsibilities. If not, I could use my freedom of speech to hurt other people terribly, and not just their feelings, in very short order. So, in the United States as in every smaller or larger civilized community (smaller such as our mudcat), we have to impose the responsibilities that go with freedom of speech or else civilization, if that's what we want to have, means nothing. Those who choose to hurt others by the advantage of their own freedom must either accept their own responsibility or have it put upon them. So what if the other guy did it first? If you want civilization (which, again, I must point out is not a part of nature), then the responsibility is there whether we like it or not. Which leads to the provocative conclusion....

Absolute freedom of speech is a very simple-minded concept. It has been shown over and again in law and in community. Absolute freedom of any kind, without (hopefully self-) imposed responsiblity is not worth defending. It avoids the most important issues, including "should civilization survive"? (a personal choice we all have to make) or not. If someone uses their freedom to hurt or take advantage of others, that responsibility must be imposed. Again, not to do so is simple-minded, self-destructive, and destructive of civilized society, large or small, whatever we think of it.

If you know me you know I am extremely liberal. I hold these truths to be self-evident and all the rest. But, like the right to bear arms, everything is not as simple as it looks on paper. And that is the strength of the freedoms we, with constant struggle, attempt to enjoy.

Let me know what you think.

Chet

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 07:21 PM

I think you should be published, Chet! Well put and very thoght-provoking.

It seems to be a symptom of all facets of our society, these days, that quite often personal responsibility has been left in the dust. People blame their parents, teachers; their boss, spouse, siblings, etc. Everyone blames television and the media at large, anyone but themselves.

It all does come back to that personal choice, as you mentioned, of whether civilisation should survive or not. This is a time of great contention in the US and world. There are many factions which would like to assert their beliefs, laws, etc. on everyone else, and they are not above using violence to attain their goals. In the US, at least, I believe they are, thankfully, in the minority.

I believe there are enough people in the world who feel personal freedom coupled with personal responsibility are worth promoting and protectng. I believe this to be true, here at the Mudcat, too.

Thank youf or starting this thread. I have many more thoughts, but have been pretty vocal about them in the past, so....the soapbox is up for grabs and may it ever be available for respectful discourse.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 07:44 PM

Selah, Chet!

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Night Owl
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 07:58 PM

Thank you Chet. There was an expression about ....your freedoms ending where my nose begins. That's NOT the right quote, but it meant that restrictions on freedoms are necessary to prevent inflicting serious harm on other humans. I can't help but think that the recent events here have made it a stronger, more purposeful place to be. And THANK YOU guys for the participation, and the fun, in the Campfire and Tavern threads. I'm going on vacation for a couple weeks and am hoping, when I get back to find, that we have moved on and continue to celebrate the magic that Max et. al. provide us here, twenty-four hours a day. I also think we should all listen to harpgirl's comment in the Steven Foster thread. A wise lady, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 08:23 PM

Well put Chet and responsibility is key, something that has been progressively lost in our world over the last 30 years. Rights, like equality, are simply concepts. Are we all created equal? Of course not, and it's ludicrous to believe that we are. But can we treat each other with equanimity? Freedom is truly an illusory thing and many "Rights" have been lost to societal change. What do you give up to gain certain assurances? Your employer has a dress and appearance code. Do you want the job? Your neighborhood has restrictions on what can be parked in your driveway....Do you move? And like it or not, "rights" have always belonged to the strong. You may have a life/liberty interest under the 14th amendment, but does your child? If I kill you, have I not taken your right to life and liberty? Define a treasonous act and can you support it as such 100% constitutionally?

This is the kind of subject where I wish my typing were faster and better!!! But it's fun ain't it? So much of Folk Music revolves around the common man and his struggle to maintain his rights in the face of larger powers. We all need to take that responsibility for holding onto our rights but with respect for others, and try to teach our children to accept responsibility for what they have and what they do.

Good reading? Try "The Political Illusion" by Jacques Ellul and see if you can round up a copy of Lenny's autobiography, "How to Talk Dirty and Influence People" for some of the routines he did on this subject.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: a newcomer
Date: 25 Jul 99 - 08:53 PM

I'm new to the family, so am unfamiliar with "all of our troubles lately." concur wholeheartedly in your linkage of freedom and responsibility. might add culpability as a subset of responsibility. your view of "civilization" strikes me as a bit jaundiced, however. Instead of "civilization", you might find it more helpful to think/talk in terms of cultures (emphasize plural) as devices to help people (populations) cope with whatever environment they happen to be in. Hmm, this seems like it might be a monstrous case of creep, maybe even a mud(cat)slide. Ciaio!

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Margo
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 01:03 AM

I was delighted when one of my students in the choir told me that he was learning about "reliance on self". I asked what he meant by it, and he explained that if he did something wrong, he had no one to blame but himself. All this from a kung fu class.

Yes, responsibility must go hand in hand with freedom, by any definition.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Chet W.
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 11:29 AM

Thanks for the kind words. I write about Civilization this way because, as a scientist (I teach Biology) I noticed long ago that there was nothing akin to it in nature. It, civilization, is an entirely human construct. Culture is what comes when civilization is allowed to exist and grow. There is time to produce religion, art, philosophy, and all manner of works simply because there is time for some people to be free from food-gathering and child-care responsibilities, at least part of the time. The scientist side of me does acknowledge that we can't know everything by scientific means, but things like this are fairly clear. Whatever we humans do in terms of politics, spirituality, art, etc., we must remember that we are not that far removed from the jungle. A few hundred generations is not much in the overall picture, and we still have to look at our behavior in what may now seem like rather primitive terms. A civilization/society/culture that can cure diseases and fly to other planets still can't seem to get its members to stop killing each other over territory as if we were bighorn sheep.

Chet

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: bob schwarer
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 12:45 PM

But so many do not (will not) accept responsibility. The "devil made me do it" mentality. "My actions are the result of some unseen, unknown influence" It would be great if people were made responsible for their actions, but I'm afraid it will not happen. Not soon enough, anyway.

I agree with you. Chet.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Angel 1
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 01:01 PM

Thank U Chet!

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Chet W.
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 01:29 PM

Just wanted to add (and then maybe I'll shut up) that, having taught in the SC Juvenile Corrections system, many of my students really didn't see the slightest connection between cause and effect, much less responsibility for actions, in their own lives or anywhere else. I've actually heard things like, "Yeah, I killed that guy, but that's not why I'm here. The judge didn't like me (or was prejudiced or whatever)", and I've heard them enough times to believe that's what many of them really think. And perhaps even more shocking to me, in the regular public schools I see their peers who may have somewhat better control, but no qualitative difference in their world-view. Raised by television, everything ends, including responsibility, when the "off" button is finally pushed. The approach of many professional caregivers to these pathological tendencies is another, very sad and scary story.

Chet

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: bob schwarer
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 02:35 PM

Exactly

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Bert
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 04:41 PM

mudslide! I love it newcomer.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Fadac
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 04:58 PM

Chet, Intresting thread. I wonder when things broke down. Myself, I think it broke down in the 1960-1970 eara. Perhaps even the groundwork was setup in the 1930's. What ever was the trigger, it caused all of our standards to fall. Look at the requirments to graduate from HS. In the US if you just show up, and don't cause too much trouble you can get a certificte of attendence (What ever that is.) In Italy, you have to learn three languages to get a HS deploma. Most if not all Europen countries require at least one language. Not to mention history, math, etc. I graduated from HS in 1968. I feel that in my 12 years of school I got a fair 5th grade education. Now what are they getting? 2nd grade. Just watch the girl try and give you change at the store. If the cashregester didn't tell them how much to hand you, they would be lost.

(Now watch folks get on my back for this next statement.) I personely feel that Afermitive Action did nothing but bring everyone down the the dumbest level possable. (Whew! any stones?) It did NOTHING for the blacks, but make them even more a 2nd class citizen. Now they are teaching Spanish only for those with Spanish sirnames. EGAD! If I was a member of the KKK I'd love that. Keep 'em dumb. Make sure that they don't speak the language of money, so they can't get the good jobs. Provide Spanish language TV and newspapers, keep them away from the good stuff. Old A. Hitler couldn't have come up with a better plan.

Then there is a case of "I don't have to worry about protecting myself, the police will do that for me."

Hmmm, I think Robert Heinline once put it, you can't take someones freedom, you make them give it to you. So we really are not losing rights, we are giving them up, one by one. As we sit around in our little playland dreaming our little dreams of the perfect world, some one is taking everything we take for granted away...for them selves.

So if you don't like the way things are, you must fight for what you belive in. Here the most powerfull wepon that I have, I use regulary, the voters reg. card. That scares a polician more than anything else. Vote the A** hole out of his cushy job. (heh heh)

Ok, done with spouting mode, Shields up Scotty...

-Fadac

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: John OSh
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 05:31 PM

Great thread!

As with many other threads discussing everything for musical forms to gun issues, everyone has put out well defined ideas (and perhaps personal ideals)

Chet W., you say that you are "very liberal", yet is consider myself "very conservative" and tend to agree with most of your assertions. In fact (a bit of a tangent here) the very concept of liberal and conservative are constructs of "civilization!" Personal responsibility is the core of any well functioning society. Often, it seems that many of the civiliztions in the world have lost the concept of personal responibility and the whole world has suffered.

Fadac, on many points I agree w/ you as well. On your point of flying verbage directed at you, I believe that by examining (and verbalizing dissent to) politically motivated strategies one should never be labeled, especially as I have been called a "racist" in the past for opposing the current set-up of aff. action. When working in social work, I found the vast majority of aff. action strategies either set people of color up to fail by placing unready and under educated people in difficult positions or working to place those same people in low paying, dead end jobs. While there were a few worthy plans, the vast majority, in my opinion, caused great harm among the populations they were intended to help. A saying that my boss and I always said to each other to maintain our sanity in dealing w/ at risk and chronically depressed populations was that our goal was to give them a hand up, not a hand out.

The tangent is over, but when you give someone a hand up, you let them get on their feet and assume personal responsibility for their actions, when you give them a hand out, you encourge the same behavior which earned them the hand out (not racially charge - current welfare rolls are majority caucasian in USA, and too many are getting a hand out)

ANyway, good thread.

John OSh

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 06:32 PM

One thought: without some of the employment actions of the 1960's, women "of child-bearing age" would still have a hard time getting jobs because of the potential for pregnancy Now, employers know they cannot use that as an excuse.

True story: I did get passed over once because management figured I'd go off and have another kid soon and they blatantly said they didn't want to invest in somoneone who would do that. THIS, when I was absolutely dedicated to my job and NOT even thinking about another baby.

katwhoisstillponderingtheaffirmativeactionthingy&thinksitdid&,maystillserveapurpose

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Chet W.
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 08:09 PM

I think it started breaking down before any of us were born. I think one of the interesting things about politics in recent decades is that liberals and conservatives seem to be going in a circle and meeting on the other side; that is, the words don't mean what they used to mean, and everybody has to decide for themselves what they mean. I think affirmative action is much too complicated a subject to analyze in the kind of terms I used above.

Chet

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: SueH
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 08:30 PM

Two questions, Fadac

1. What is Affirmative Action?

2. Do you mean they won't teach Spanish to non-Hispanics, or do you mean they won't teach the Spanish English. And, whichever of these it is, what is the justification behind this?

Please.

Sue

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 10:10 PM

Chet..as a teacher of biology, do you ever ponder the strange situation we find ourselves in, the product of millions of years of evolution in which bellicosity and extra testosterone were survival characteristics and simply 'the way things worked'..........Now, in just a few thousand years, we have moved to a place where antagonism, war, and general tendency toward confrontation are counter-productive...yet the genes and hormones are still there, and like the big horn sheep, we snort and bellow and butt heads till someone ummmm...'wins'....and, as clever people who have learned to use language in the last few thousand years, we have concepts like "Freedom of Speech" to justify us when we want to fuel the fires.

then, we use other concepts like 'affirmative action' to justify over-compensating for real problems. I heard on the radio once, a black woman arguing stridently for 'black English' as a genuine language variant, and advocating teaching it in schools, and NOT requiring kids to cope with 'standard' English...Of course, she was fluent in both, and could get talk show spots and paying jobs that those poor kids would never be considered for!.....

I am afraid that, sometimes, it is necessary to deny people total freedom in order to save them from themselves...but who is to decide how much denial? and administered by whom?..ah...well...*smile*

(I remember the Will Rogers story, in which he was facing the press early in WW2, and was asked "what should we do about the German submarines?"

"oh,", he said, "that's easy. Boil the ocean."

"oh, come on, Will", they said, "how are we gonna do that?"

"I dunno," answered Will, "I'm just the idea man...we have technical people to deal with the details.")

so, I'd be GLAD to tell you how to solve the world's problems...from affirmative action, to Ireland, to Bosnia, to who gets the water from the Colorado river...and throw in a nice rule about who gets freedom of speech as a bonus.

(no, I did not give this the detailed analysis several of you have in this thread... I realize I only made some pointed remarks...guess I am awed at the task of doing justice to the concept in a short time)

BillDsittingdownandlookingatkatlaughingandnoddingwisely

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Chet W.
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 10:36 PM

Bill, of course I've thought about them. The tendency to violence is, as I said above, dictated by nature, and only has to be controlled if we want to maintain this artificial system called civilization. The other things people have mentioned like affirmative action, freedom of speech, and non-English instruction are products of that artificial system, and are thus not governed by, nor modeled in, nature. So we just have to deal with them using these great big brains of ours, hopefully tempered with good will and good faith. Nature has no solution for the fact that people of all socio-econo-ethnic groups are letting their televisions raise their children for them, but it sure provides a consequence. Nature is not always convenient, but it's sure as hell real.

Chet

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 11:08 PM

and, I'm afraid, nature will be served...contrary to some peoples opinion, I do NOT believe that some 'higher power' will magically solve it all for us...'Nature'...the universe at large...simply does not CARE about our issues, as issues...if we overpopulate the earth and do not curb those baser instincts, we will, like rats in a cage, growl and fight for food and space...and the 'winners' may well be the type uf human we like to think we have grown beyond....I shudder to imagine debaters in the UN squabbling over petty details when the mobs break in....

"Bill..you are quite a pessimist"..."yep...I don't see very many taking the long view...or even the pragmatic view.."..."so what would YOU suggest?"..."you don't want to know"...I am 60 now, and will just miss the worst of it, I think...but I have a 17 year old son...and I am afraid to tell him

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 11:21 PM

Well, Billlookingwisely&noddinghishead,

Some of us who believe in the Cosmic, which I guess you could classify as a Higher Power, believe we were given free will and the responsibility that comes with it. The Cosmic, as you say Nature is, is totally impersonal. If we can attune with it and be one with it, we can reach what the Budhhists call Nirvana, but the Cosmic will do nothing which circumvents our own free will and action based on it.

This drives my brother nuts. He wants to believe in a kind & benevolent Cosmic. But, I tell him, the Cosmic is the Universe. We are NOT the most part of that, we are just aprt of it. It matters not, in the grand scheme of things whether humankind, on the planet, gets their shit together or not. It would be nice and it would be good, but the planet and the Universe will continue to exist with or without us.

I am NOT a fatalist, nor a pessimist! It's just realistic spirituality or practical metaphysics. It is up to us, and us alone, each one of us, how we do on the consciousness level. I believe the Cosmic is also Universal Love and as such wants only the best for eacha nd every one of us, but, again, the Comsic or whatever you wnat to call it, will not override our own free will.

For hope and optimism, I try to remember that the more we can strive to be kind, generous, loving etc., the more we are allowing our Higher Self or God self or tiny smidgen of the Cosmic to manifest and fill our life with goodness and enlightenment.

Then, too, it helps to believe in reincarnation, as I do.**BG** If you hit a SNAFU this time, there's always next time!

katlaughing&pompouslygettingoutofthepulpit!

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 99 - 11:58 PM

ah, kat....there is NOTHING I'd like to believe in more than reincarnation!...wowee!...but it would simply be wishful thinking...no one can even give me the slightest notion of how it might work or just what part of me might continue..soul?..cosmic consciousness?..*shrug*... why not believe in elves?... if I DO get 'beyond' and find I am still...ummmm...'there', or wherever, I intend to ask someone who set up this weird arrangement!.*grin*

(I live withing walking distance of a Jehovah's Witness Hall. AND the big east coast Mormon Temple!...ya oughta hear me with the door-knockers..*grin*...I had one Witness go get his more experienced "elder" or whatever when I refused to grant his basic assumptions...I just was NOT following the script!.so he told me I was NOT going to heaven with my attitude...and I replied that if it was run by the rules he described, I didn't think I wanted to be there!...sort of ended the discussion...at least you are NOT telling me I can affect what happens to me in the next life..(are you?)...*grin*

my thought for today... "theology is the finding of bad reasons for what we already believe on faith"

(quoted by Walter Kaufmann somewhere..not sure of origin...)

(boy, I'm in a cynical mood today...not mad at anyone, just letting my inner thoughts slip out a lot..)

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 01:02 AM

Jeez Bill, where's the cynicism? Should I be worried that I agree with everything you said?
Rick

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 05:00 AM

Hi, Sue - I wanted to make sure your question about Affirmative Action didn't get lost in the discussion. "Affirmative Action" is a U.S. program that gives preference (in employment, education, housing, and credit) to certain racial, ethnic, gender, or other groups who suffered discrimination in the past. Ideally, the preference should help to bring the minority groups back to equal footing with the majority.
When improperly managed, "Affirmative Action" can shut the door to the majority of the population. When I applied for a position as a management analyst with the State of California in 1973, I was told that all 60 positions that were open that year had to go to women and minorities. I got a U.S. Government job that gave me a good income for 23 years, so I can't complain too loud. The California state bureaucracy does tend to take legislation to ridiculous extremes. I've found the federal government to be more practical and reasonable - most of the time. Affirmative Action is a good concept, but it can cause damage when it is taken to extremes.
There's a black man here in Sacramento named Ward Connerly who has made a name for himself in the political world by opposing Affirmative Action. He's done damage to good programs here in California, and now he's trying to do the same in Florida. The man is the most blatant political opportunist I have ever encountered. He makes his living running a company that does consulting for the State of California. Because he is a member of a racial minority, he was given preference when he was awarded many of those contracts.
I hope that answers your question.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 07:12 AM

Ooooo, Rick & Bill: baaaaaaddddd Karma will follow you into the nest life! Better watch it!**BG**

Seriously, BillD. I would not presume to tell anybody what they should believe in or not. I do happen to believe what I learn from my experiences, this lifetime, will help to determine what direction I take next time.

If anyone wants to do some serious and good reading on any of this, let me know. The Rosicrucians have some excellent books on the subjects of cosmic consciousness, soul growth, and reincarnation. It is NOT a religion, however. Their most comon expression is "a Rosicrucian (moi:-) is a walking question mark".

Also, T. Lobsang Rampa, a Tibetan lama who has lived in Canada for a long time, has written many books on the subjects. He's a little funky to read, but fascinating.

Okay......I think I've exercised my right to free speech this fine and early morning. See ya all later.

katlaughing&contemplatinghernavel!

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 09:05 AM

Kat, It seems to me that if you substitute your Cosmic for my word Nature we are saying pretty much exactly the same thing. I'll admit that a lot of what helps me understand nature as relates to humans is my Zen study that I started in college all those years ago.

Chet

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 10:10 AM

Gosh Kat, I thought my Karma brownie points were steadily mounting. After all:
I don't drive an RUV.
I've never snuffed anything larger than a june bug.
I voted "Green" (so did about 17 others)
I only smoke when no one can see me.
I don't believe that children should own nuclear weapons (a controversial position in some circles)

Lobsang Rampa lives in Canada? Why? Where?
Rick (my favourite Karma is the Sutra)

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 10:31 AM

Well, you see, Rick, it's about those June bugs up yer nose. Now don't you thnk they deserved a life!??**BG*

Actually, you've got TONS of Karmic Brownie points in my book! I'll put in a good word for you!

I think Lobsang Rampa lived in Calgary. Don't think he's alive anymore. There's a lot of controversy over his authenticity. Regardless, I find his books interesting.

Go forth and prosper, ya'll!

kat

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 10:48 AM

"Who you jivin' with that cosmic debris?" ... Frank Zappa, who is currently testing all theories.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Fadac
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 11:14 AM

Sue, Rick,

Rick, I got smacked in the head with a june bug once. While doing about 50 mph on a motorcycle. That's when I learned about windshields. Ouch!

Sue, Now the sad part about afermitive action. Suppose if your a white male and wish to be come a MD. And the school requires a 4.0 grade point to enter. Now suppose a black also wishes to be a MD. They would only require a 2.0 average. (4=A 3=B 2=C 1=D 0=dumb bunny) These standards would be lowered to accomadate the lowest common denomater. (sp?) So if you are talking to your Dr. and if he is a minority, is he as smart as his white co-worker? This isn't politicly correct, but you have to ask your self the question. At one time the U.S. Army was offering a $10,000 bonus to any sort of qualfied black to become an officer in the service. You can imgaine what that did for moral.

On the Spanish Question. What they would like to do is keep them in Spanish only classes. Not teach them English at all. Keep them dumb in the English language. This is criminal as far as I'm concerned. The His-Spanics in this country work like dogs, doing the most degrading tasks, it is simply not right to keep them there, generation after generation. My suggestion. Your a newcommer to the USA, (and leagal, but that is a differant issue.) You get an intense English language course. You would then be required to take the rest of your classes in English. That is the language of the good jobs here. (Well, uh a lot of the engineers here at SUN speak Chineese, but that again is a differant issue. They have a lot of PHds too.)

Anyway, I use my Poliical Gun and shoot down these laws when ever they come up. We get about two opertunities to shoot at politicans here, so I vote a lot. :o) I also get picked for Jurry Duty too. :o(

Anyway, the deal here, (sad but true) you must speak English with little or no accent, a slight Europen touch is OK, but any Spanish is bad.

Ok, that was probably $0.03 worth.

-Fadac

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 11:57 AM

..."here at SUN"....who is that Fadac?

catspaw

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: OSh
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 12:38 PM

One way to equate poor planning of aff. action is looking at size/weight/strength req. of jobs being waived. As many family and friends are police officers and firefighters, I hear about this alot. Because the majority of females were below the size/weight/strength requirements of the jobs, the standards were thrown out to allow "better representation of the genders in public services"

Fine and dandy, but if my ass is stuck in a building in flames (I'm 6'2" ~250) I don't want someone, male or female, who got onto the job w/o meeting the standards because they were tossed out coming to get me. Do you think a 5'2" 100 lb female is going to be able to carry me down the stairs?

Political pressure to "OFFER" equal opportunity should never come at the expense of someones saftey (similar to MD - Standards should be consistent accross gender/race)

(Sorry I went off on this triade, but just got off the phone w/ my cousin who is a cop and was telling me about someone on the job unable oto keep up physicaly)

Be well all, and be glad we are all one day closer to the weekend!

John OSh

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 01:02 PM

Ahhh, John, rather a 5'2" 100 lb woman who is in shape and trains than a cop on donuts. IT'S A JOKE, PHOAKS! My daughter was toying with the idea of being a cop and she is only 5'1".

Presumably, once the African American was accepted to med school he/she had to take the classes, study the material, and pass with decent grades in order to get the degree.

This is one of those hot buttons that some of us may never agree on; I'd hate to think where this country would be if we hadn't had some of the opportunities Aff. Action offered.

Not going there beyond this point,

Respectfully,

Kat

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 01:49 PM

A Semi-Revolution

I advocate a semi-revolution.
The trouble with a total revolution
(Ask any reputable Rosicrucian)
Is that it brings the same class up on top.
Executives of skillful execution
Will therefore plan to go halfway and stop.
Yes, revolutions are the only salves,
But they're the one thing that should be done by halves.

and an answer by Oscar Williams, from his wonderful volume."A Silver Treasury of Light Verse"

A Total Revolution

I advocate a total revolution.
The trouble with a semi-revolution,
It's likely to be slow as evolution.
Who wants to spend ages in collusion
With Compromise, Complacence and Confusion?
As for the same class coming up on top
That's wholecloth from the propaganda shop;
The old saw says there's loads of room on top,
That's where the poor should really plan to stop.
And speaking of those people called the "haves,"
Who own the whole cow and must have the calves
(And plant the wounds so they can sell the salves)
They wont be stopped by doing things by halves.
I say that for a permanent solutiuon
There's nothing like a total revolution!

P.S. And may I add by way of a conclusion
I wouldn't dream to ask a Rosicrucian.

BTW..years ago I was a victim of an early form of affirmative action...I was taking the FSEE(Federal entrance exams) because the EPA office in San Francisco wanted to hire me...well, I 'only' got a score of 96.5! And at that time, there were many Viet Nam vets around with scores of 87+..and 10 point bonuses for being in combat!..so, if they created the job they wanted me in, I would never stand a chance of getting it!. They said that if I re-took the test and got a 'pure' score of 98+, they could 'request' an exception for me...

So, had the rules been just a bit more reasonable..(why '5' and '10' point bonuses?)., I might be drinking and singing with Dave, fadac, and others today!

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: OSh
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 02:59 PM

In response:

If a 5'1" woman is able to lift me over her sholders or be able to physically restrain someone, I say amen and let them do the job. I know many qualified female firefighters and police. Perhaps I did not make myself clear, but my issue was they drop qualifications for everyone, male and female, and unfortunately people in difficult situations have suffered. I don't think a 5'1" male would really be able to drag me out of a fire.

As well, I do know from personal experience that, when I was a life guard, there were no size/weight/srtength req. and certain people were physically unable to do all of the job duties, and it fell on the rest of use to make up for it.....not very safe feeling, is it.

Re: in med school, true, if they were in they had to complete the course work, but as many MD frieds have told me, schools do everything in their power to make sure that students do not fail out, as it looks bad! (This goes for everyone, regardless of scores going in or possible quota filling slots.) In fact, according to one friend, over 1/4 of his class had to stay at least one extra year to retake classes they failed!

Remeber, doctors do call it a practice! I guess the "practice" to make it perfect

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 04:12 PM

I suppose you can come up with all sorts of anecdotes about the horrors of Affirmative Action (I cited one of my own above), but the fact of the matter is that most of the positions of power in the United States and Europe are held by white males. The proportion is far out of line with the ratio of white males to the rest of society. That seems to be an indication that there may be a problem, and it would be nice if somebody did something to try to solve it.
There are those who abuse the idea of Affirmative Action and use it to give positions to people who are not qualified - but that does not mean that the entire idea of Affirmative Action is wrong. If Affirmative Action doesn't work, fix it - but don't throw it out completely unless you can come up with a better solution to the problem.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Fadac
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 04:27 PM

catspaw, I'm currently working for SUN Microsystems. A rather large manufacture of UNIX workstations and servers and very fast CPU's. Sort of a competator with Microsoft, and Intel.

-Fadac

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 05:26 PM

thanks, Joe...well put!

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 05:40 PM

I think it was George Carlin who commented many years ago (when he was THE hippie comedian) that if the plane you were on were going through a bad storm, no matter what your politics were, you'd rather see John Wayne over Timothy Leary in the pilot's chair.

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 05:48 PM

yep...I am PERFECTLY willing to agree that if two applicants are equally qualified for a position, preference should usually be given to a minority who has hitherto been denied opportunity. Only fair...( I walked picket lines in Mississippi in 1964 to secure voter registration and other sorts of equal opportunity for those who were not being treated fairly)...but, there is always a discussion about what counts as 'equally qualified'...no easy solution.

(also, I was reminded above of one summer I worked at Beech Aircraft on the receiving dock for local deliveries...seems one vendor, an electrical contractor, had a penchant for hiring VERY pretty young women to drive delivery trucks. One day, one of their drivers appeared with an order, and stacked the pieces on a pallet, except for a reel of wire..she asked if I could help her set it from the bed of the pickup to the dock, and I said "sure", and hopped down...whereupon, my boss stepped out on the dock and said "No"...he said the rules were.."The vendor unloads..no exceptions, if she can't lift it, let them send someone who can"....I shrugged at her, and she managed to wrestle it up...It seemed sort of picky to me, but I guess I see their point...again, not an easy line to draw..

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Fadac
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 06:48 PM

Along those lines. A friend of the family had a truck line. It seems this small, young lady, wanted a job to drive the truck. However, the driver had to load and unload the truck. So he gave her a 50lb box to load. She couldn't lift it. Then he asked her to chain the truck up with the snow chains. She couldn't lift the chains. Then she cried about not being fair. Well he told her, all his drivers had to do that, not once, but sometimes many times a day. I think my Dad's record on chains was four times on and off in one 14 hour day. Now he wasn't against women drivers, and there are women out there that can lift those loads, but this one couldn't. So she didn't get the job.

Now in my job, as a systems administrator, women do equal work and as far as I know, get equal pay, and equal opertunities for advancement. But the only heavy thing to lift in this job, is brain power.

-Fadac

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: LEJ
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 08:49 PM

About 1973, I took the Civil Service exam for employment at the Post Office. The guy that sat next to me asked if I thought I could score 100%, and I said I doubted it and why did he ask. He answered that most of the males in the room were Vietnam Era vets, and they got an automatic 20 points added to their scores.. So I would have had to have been a flawless candidate for the job to beat out one of these guys who was a mediocre candidate. Sure it seemed unfair at the time. But in hindsight, do I think those guys deserved a better shot at those jobs? You bet I do. Large numbers of vets were returning to the States, many having suffered all the horrors of war. It was the right thing to do for them . It was also in our society's interest to see that the transition from soldier to productive citizen was accomplished quickly. I contend that THAT affirmative Action program was quite worthwhile, and yielded positive results AT THAT TIME.

I think it is a mistake to toss all such programs into one basket and label them dangerous or worthless.

Regarding the Spanish language question, I am afraid that I come down against the teaching of regular classes in Spanish NOT because it deprives some students of the "language of power" in this country, but because it adds to a feeling of cultural separateness that endangers our continued existence as a society. I believe that many who advocate Spanish curriculum do so because they feel it is their right to do so because of their growing numbers, because of a feeling of Anglo chauvinism that they feel diminishes their culture, and because of a kind of a Kosovo attitude that many hispanics hold regarding the Southwest of the US; they feel that they were the earliest inhabitants, and therefore have an older claim to that area. I am not arguing those issues. But I suggest that language is the PRIMARY unifying force in the life of a nation, and we overlook that fact at our peril.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: LEJ
Date: 27 Jul 99 - 09:04 PM

I almost forgot...Hey, Shambles. I know you are reading this thread, and itching to post to it. So...DO IT!!

LEJ

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Jul 99 - 10:28 AM

And hurry!
Rick

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 28 Jul 99 - 10:51 AM

I feel a thread creep coming on...When I was on my only visit to USA I was 25 and put out to find out the minimum drinking age everywhere seemed to be 21 (some of our group were younger) and our hosts tended to offer us root beer or cola (but a nice Zinfandel in Chicago, I remember, but I digress again). When trying to get into bars we were miffed to be asked for ID ,which unless we had our passports with us we didn't, despite surely looking over 21 (in my case at least!). Then we were puzzled to be asked:"Are you a vet?" which to a Brit means a person who spends most of his time with his arm up a cow's arse (sorry, ass: arm up an ass's arse).
I think they just wanted to keep us (me?) out. Exit dragged away by friends shouting "I've been thrown out of better dives than this"
Exit dragged away by friends, typing: "I've been thrown off more relevant threads than this!"

Subject: RE: Freedom of Speech: Long-Winded BS
From: Fadac
Date: 28 Jul 99 - 01:26 PM

Roger, The reason that the drinking age in most places is 21 is. In Ill. they had a drinking age of 18. Then they discovered that 80% of the fatal accadents (auto) that involved drinking, the driver was over 18 and under 21. What happend was that they (18-21) proved in a most grusom way that they could not handle drinking. So the state legislators decided to raise the drinking age. They basicly got tired of having their kids killed..

The question of "are you a vet." Meraly implies that if at 18 had gone to war, and survived, you had paid your dues, so was allowd a drink. However on a personel note, I was comming from my first tour in Viet Nam, on my way to Germany, I was 20, and was not allowed to drink. My Aunt raised holy hell in the place. Screaming that someone who had seen combat, should be allowed a drink in their #$%^^!@ restruant. Quite embaressing really. But they didn't serve, and we didn't eat there. (BTW I was in uniform at the time.)

(tounge firmly in cheek) We know the Brits can handle drinking, we see that demonstrated at the football matches.

-Fadac