Shanty or Chantey?

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 08:31 PM

Thanks Gibb, some good reading amongst a morass of chit.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: chazkratz
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 08:46 PM

What is a "hard _ch_"? I don't regard it as ch as in chant--or tCharley, for that matter. I'd say a hard ch is one as in Christmas, Michael, charisma. A soft one, of course, is pronounced the same as sh, as in Michelle, Charlene, or chanty/chantey. _ch_ as in chant or chart or Charley is neither hard nor soft--I'd call it gelatinous.

Charles (gelatinous from the get-go)

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 09:13 PM

Considering that when the word was first put into circulation, there was no such thing as standardized spelling, the question is really moot.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:28 AM

Point well taken. English was not my major. In my lingo CH is spoken as CHANT, not SHANT.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:16 AM

Interesting that among all the writers cited only Stan Hugill actually was a ' shantyman '

Dave H

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:32 AM

But I take it Captain Whall would have known shantymen who would have served on his ships

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 08:15 AM

People who read the word "chant(e)y" before they ever heard it spoken will naturally pronounce it like "chant."

Whall (who went to sea in the 1850s), Hugill, Doerflinger, and all other writers on the subject go out of their way to say that, in their experience, "shanty" was the only pronunciation used by sailors.

Which, of course, is the biggest strike against a derivation from "chant."

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:03 AM

Lighter et al-

"Whall (who went to sea in the 1850s), Hugill, Doerflinger, and all other writers on the subject go out of their way to say that, in their experience, "shanty" was the only pronunciation used by sailors."

Which was also the rationale that Joanne Colcord and C. Fox Smith used for their eventual use of "shanty" and "shantyman," as did Doerflinger.

Frederick Pease Harlow, however, went with "chantey" and "chanteyman" but makes the point that sailors pronounced the word "shanty."

I was also struck by Richard Dana's mention of the nautical worksongs ("singing out at the ropes") in his Two Years before the Mast (1840) as he described his experience as a sailor in the 1830's, with no mention of any particular term such as "shanty, chanty, chantey, or even tchahntey."

I also agree that the term, however spelled, originated among the stevedores in the Gulf ports of Mobile and New Orleans, and then was adopted by the sailors.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:44 AM

Is it not possible that both meanings of shanty/etc (work song and hut), are derived from neither English nor French, but get their name from where Europeans first encountered them - the Ashanti coast of West Africa? It's a very short step from "Ashanti" to "a shanty".

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: IanC
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:31 AM

Problem with that snuffy is that it's not the place where Europeans first encountered shanties.
:-)

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 11:58 AM

The typical work song is more of a chant than a shant.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 11:59 AM

Dana also observed in his book, p. 134, that his messmates had no work songs for lightening their rowing efforts from their boat to the shore of San Pedro, California. However, an Italian ship was also in the harbor and her boat crews always sang as they rowed. Of course Dana didn't mention what the Italian sailors called such singing but perhaps they sang "chianties."

You got to love this erudite research and discussion!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 12:16 PM

Charley, See reference "The Music of the Waters."

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 12:22 PM

The ships Nordhoff (c. 1855) was speaking of made the voyage from the great basins of Liverpool to the American ports, Mobile being one of them. On the voyage he cites, the return cargo, after unloading the cotton, was railroad iron and crockery-ware.

*Leaving Liverpool, "our chaunty-man was called for. "Said he, 'Now, just wait; I'll set all the men and women crying before you know it.'
He struck up to rather a slow and plaintive tune an old capstan song, which begins as follows:

'We're going away from friends and home,
Cho- Oh, sailors, where are you bound to?
We're going away to hunt for gold
Cho- Across the briny ocean.
Father and mother say goodbye,
Cho- Sailors, where are you bound to?
Oh, sisters, brothers, don't you cry,
Cho- Across the briny ocean.
...............
*Charles Nordhoff, "Seeing the World, a Young Sailor's Own Story" (Nordhoff issued about three versions, with added or deleted portions).

I believe it more likely that the 'chaunty' originated among the English sailors leaving the ports of England; a work song requiring the form of call and response which is not confined to any particular group of workmen doing a task which requires cooperation and a rhythm.
I see nothing that ties the term to Mobile or other cotton ports.

Moreover, the screwers at Mobile were commonly Liverpool and other men from the UK, mostly seafarers, who earned more money at cotton-screwing than at sea-faring.

Other threads, not linked yet, have similar content to this thread.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 12:24 PM

There is a city in northwest India where I have lived called Chandigarh. Now, Indian place names are rendered with an eye towards Anglophones. So I'd think there was no problem in knowing to pronounce the name with the affricate "CH". But whenever I got a call from my moms over there, it was "So, how's it going in SHandigarh?", with the fricative "SH." Note: she is someone who knows no foreign languages.

Based on my experience, I don't see what the big deal is with "CH" being read as a fricative. It happens a lot, and it seems silly that people would change spelling, rather than just insist on proper pronunciation. English spelling is so inconsistent, the words having come from so many sources (especially French), that one learns to expect variability....and the need to hear an unfamiliar word spoken. I have no idea if I heard "chantey" spoken first or saw it written first, but I know I must have been a very young child. There has never been any conflict in my mind about the "ch." There are just so many foreign (French) words in English that I'm sure my brain already processed the fact that such exception to rules are frequent. AND, those words may be coded as "foreign" or "special" words. Which is why I imagine, when seeing the foreign word "Chandigarh", my mom unconsciously jumps to the conclusion that it should start with a fricative.

(Next do we need to change Beijing to Baydjing and Taj Mahal to Tadj??)

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:50 PM

"it seems silly that people would change spelling, rather than just insist on proper pronunciation.

Agreed. But surely no one is suggesting changing the spelling, rather than exchanging information about which spelling is used in other parts of the world.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:33 PM

In high school English we read a book called "Erewhon," by Samuel Butler.

One section described the schism between the Big Endians, and the Little Endians, who fought over which was the correct end of an egg to crack.

I will have to find and re-read that classic. A parody on Victorian England, it still applies in many ways to present-day society.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:36 PM

I suspect that Q has confused Samuel Butler's Erewhon with the Lilliput section of Swift's Gulliver's Travels, in which the BigEnd/LittleEnd controversy leads to war between Lilliput & the neighbouring island of Blefuscu.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:31 PM

But surely no one is suggesting changing the spelling
Oh no, I don't mean in our discussion, I meant re: the act of RR Terry back in 1915, and the subsequent similar decision of Joanna Colcord. As discussed above, though there was no "standard" spelling, "ch" had emerged by that time as the most common -- common enough that they were worried about mispronunciation.

Even though sailor-commentators had earlier spelled it most often with "ch", these authors decided to change it. Mind you, I do understand that if it was not completely standardized, it was not a "change" per se. But we've enough references with "ch" to argue that "ch" had indeed been customary.

Now, the point that "However you spell it, it's still the same word" is well taken, naturally -- though I don't think we need to resort to characterizing sailors as illiterates or people who never cared about any such things.

But the question still remains, one where spelling IS relevant: why did the early writers spell it with "CH"? There must have been some reason. Either:

1) It was at first pronounced with the affricate sound (as in "church")
or
2) It was pronounced (always) with the fricative sound ("shut"), but...for unknown reasons, they felt this sound should be represented by /ch/.
If #2, what were those reasons? Possibilities:

-- There really was some French influence going on. The setting in the French-Creole areas of the South has been cited.
-- It was done to mark off the word as somehow belonging to a special class, be it "foreign," "special" or whatever. Like the way "Chandigarh" (mistakenly) fits into such a "class" of words in my mother's mind!
-- There was some existing term, the same or similar, that already favored that spelling. I have already mentioned the way "chaunt" was used as a way to label songs of a perceived AFrican-American style, while admitting I have no knowledge about why that was so.
-- Visually , they wanted to maintain the connection to "chant," even though it may have been diff
-- Something to do with the backgrounds of the people who were writing
-- ???

1855 Nordhoff: "chanty-man", "chants"
1867 Clarke : "chanty-man"
1869 Alden: "shanties"
1883 Luce: "chanty-song"
1886 Davis and Tozer: "chanties"
1888 Smith: "chanties"
1893 Hill: "shantier" "from French chanteur"
1903 Webb: "chanties"
1904 Bradford and Fagge: "chanties"
1906 Bernard: "Chanties"
1906 Hutchinson: "chanties"
1906 Masefield: "chanties"
1909 Whidden: "chanties"
1909 Williams: "chanties"
1910 Whall : "shanties"
1914 Beckett: "shanties"
1914 Bullen: "chanties"
1914 Sharp: "chanteys"
1915 Terry: "shanties"
1915 Derby: "chanties"
1915 Lubbock: "chanty"
1915 Meloney : "chanty man"
1916 Sharp et al : "chanties"
1917 Brown : "shanties"
1917 Robinson: "chantey man"
1918 King: "chanties"
1920 Wood: "chantey"
1920/1 Terry: "shanties"
1924 Colcord: "shanties"
1924 Frothingham: "chanteys"
etc.
I realize they are a little meaningless without full context cited.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:59 PM

"BTW - Jaw's Harp, it would seem, is a corruption of Jew's Harp by some centuries... "

Actually, the first written reference was "Jaw-harp," then "Jew's Harp," and both from the 14th Century. Jugdetromp(sp?), in German, Scatiati Pensieri(sp?) in Italian, Dan Moi in Vietnam, etc.

I love 'em.

Bob

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 05:00 PM

"The Merchant Vessel," 1855, Nordhoff
Chaunty-man or chanty-man? Not seen.

"The Merchant Vessel"
1894 edition, a New York printing by Dodd Mead. "Chanty-man"

"Seeing the World"
No date but 1868 MS inscription by Capt. McNeil Boyd, Edinburgh printing by Nimmo.
"Chaunty-man"
"Seeing the World" no date, online, Edinburgh printing by Nimmo.
"Chaunty-man"

"Seeing the World" is a variant revision of "The Merchant Vessel."

The online edition of "The Merchant Vessel" is a late American printing, 1894.

What spelling appeared in the original 1855 edition? Was the spelling changed by various editors?? Was "chaunty-man" used in the UK editions and "chanty-man" in the American editions?

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 05:07 PM

Actually, the first written reference was "Jaw-harp," then "Jew's Harp,"

I'm basing what I said on Michael Wright, who states that the earliest written reference is Jues Harp in 1481 - see HERE. What's your sources?

Dan Moi simply means metal instrument but the wonderful Scacciapensieri means scatterer of thoughts. Like many players today I go with Trump in general, but will use the correct name for the various types I play - kubing, doromb, khomus, kou-xiang (or Ho-Ho), rab ncas, murchang, moorsing etc. etc.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 05:12 PM

Gibb-

For the record here's a list of dates for Cicely Fox Smith's use of the terms as well in her book titles:

Songs in Sail and Other Chanties, Elkin Mathews, London, UK, © 1914

Small Craft: Sailor Ballads and Chantys, Elkin Mathews, London, UK, © 1917

Songs and Chanties: 1914-1916, Elkin Mathews, London, UK, © 1919

A Book of Shanties (traditional sea songs), Methuen & Co, London, UK, © 1927

Smith ridiculed the term "sea shanties" by some since in her opinion there were no "air shanties" or "land shanties."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 05:48 PM

Q,

Good point about the different editions.

A 1856 edition of THE MERCHANT VESSEL is online at Google Books. It has "chanty-man", "chanting" and "chants".

Under the title of SEEING THE WORLD, it has "chanting-man" in place of the first reference to "chanty-man" (in Mobile) and it has "chaunty-man" in place of the second reference (on the Liverpool ship).

Charley, thanks! Seems like the movement towards preferring /sh/ really grew in the 1920s.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

I must admit I started this thread in a mood of weary flu-induced cynicism, but it's been a real bounce to my spirits. Anyone for a virtual chorus or two of Essequibo River? Thanks all.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:47 PM

"The Merchant Vessel," Nordhoff from google is the 1895 New York Dodd, Mead printing, not the original 1856 edition; thus the question of whether Nordhoff used "chaunty-man" or "chanty-man" originally is not answered.
Later printings often had changes made to suit the editors.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:53 PM

you say tomaaato, I say tomahto

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 08:13 PM

Hey Q,

I answered your question! I took the time out to compare both versions -- how else would I have been able to give you the detailed info? I will await your apology :)

1856

Suibhne,
Nice! I'll join in! Essequibo Bagels

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:27 PM

The Borchester Echo asked:

Why not just call them "sea songs"?

Because not all sea songs are (s/c)hanties! Those are work songs, but there's a lot of sea songs that aren't for that purpose.

The others have various names in various places and times, but the name for the others that I'm most familiar with is "forebitters".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:32 PM

Nor are all schanties sea songs ;-0

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:09 PM

Gibb-

You certainly did a very convincing job in Photoshop re-editing the Nordhoff text. ;~)

It really looks like a great read; I'm only seen excerpts before.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:40 AM

According to Sid Kipper ' Blood Red Roses ' is a gardening shanty.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:41 PM

Sorry Gibb- I googled the book and the 1895 edition came up. The 1856 has chanty instead of chaunty in the first citation, so that seems to have been Nordhoff's first choice.

Many apologies!

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From:
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

Also, reference "Origin of Chantey"

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:05 PM

And I just reviewed this whole thread hoping for a new recipe for chutney, or should that be shutney?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM

Charley,

In my academic style Hindi orthography, I'd write it "catni"! :)

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:44 PM

Arrrggghhhh!

Sharley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:50 PM

om śanti om.....

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Reinhard
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:20 AM

Don't pun on foreign languages or, like Napoleon, you'll find your Vindaloo!

Anyway, if shanties were sung on ships, do you sing chanteys on chips?

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:56 AM

If ' shanty ' was good enough for Stan Hugill, it's good enough for me.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:47 AM

Reinhard-

You should know better:

"Loose chips sink ships!"

Sheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Ruairiobroin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

Chanteys were gozunders (Po's for the benefit of those born to indoor plumbing)when I was growing up and were often full of sh*&e naw ..... that's hardly the link.....Shanties are enchanting

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 03:04 AM

Books with the word "chanteys" in the title:

"Folk-Songs, Carols, Ballads, Chanteys" by Cecil J. Sharp.
"Words of Folk-Songs (Including Ballads and Pulling Chanteys)" by Cecil J. Sharp.
"Words of Folk-Songs (Including Carols and Capstan Chanteys)" by Cecil J. Sharp.
"Folk-Songs, Chanteys and Singing Games" by Cecil J. Sharp, C. H. Farnsworth, 1909.
"English Folk-Chanteys" by Cecil J. Sharp, 1914.
"Chanteys and Ballads" by Harry Kemp, 1920.
"Twelve Sailors' Songs or Chanteys" by R W. Saar, 1927.
"Chanteys" by Bill Adams, 1934.
"American Sea Songs and Chanteys" by Frank Shay, 1948.
"Salty Lullabies and Sea Chanteys" by Mrs. Ellis Taylor, 1951.
"Chanteys" by Søren Claussen, 1956.
"Sea Songs: Sea Chanteys, Foc'sle Songs, Ballads" by Cutty Sark Club. Winnipeg Watch, 1957.
"Songs of the Sea: Chanteys, Historical Songs [and] Ballads" by Louis C. Singer, 1966.
"Songs of the Sea & Sailors' Chanteys: An Anthology" by Robert Frothingham, 1969.
"Songs of the Sailor: Working Chanteys at Mystic Seaport" by Glenn Grasso, Marc Bernier, 1970.
"Chanteys: For Orchestra" by Ronald Perera, 1979.
"Three Chanteys for Violin, Clarinet and Piano" by Ridgway Banks, 1989.
"An American Sailor's Treasury: Sea Songs, Chanteys, [etc.]" by Frank Shay, 1991.
"Sea Chanteys and Sailors' Songs" by Stuart M. Frank, 2000.
"Sea Chanteys" by Rush Williams, 2007.

Books with the word "shanties" in the title:
(excluding books about buildings)

"Ships, Sea Songs and Shanties" by W. B. Whall, Roughton Henry Whall, 1913.
"Folk Songs of the Sea: 'Sea Shanties'", 1921.
"Six Sea Shanties" by S. Taylor Harris, 1925.
"The Shanty Book: Sailor Shanties" by Sir Richard Runciman Terry, 1926.
"A Book of Shanties" by Cicely Fox Smith, 1927.
"Manavilins: A Muster of Sea-Songs, as Distinguished from Shanties..." by Rex Clements, 1928.
"Shanties with Descants Set 1" by Richard Runciman Terry, 1928.
"Sea Songs and Shanties: The Songs" by W. B. Whall, 1930.
"Three Shanties for Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Horn and Bassoon" by Malcolm Arnold, 1952.
"Shanties and Fo'c'sle Songs" by Edgar Waters, 1957.
"Shanties" by Jürgen Dahl, 1959.
"Song Book. Community Songs, Plantation Songs, Sea Shanties, Etc", 1961.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas " by Stan Hugill, 1961.
"Sea Shanties" by Shiplovers' Society of Victoria, 1964.
"Sailors' Songs and Shanties" by Michael Hurd, John Miller, 1965.
"Shanties by the Way: A Selection of New Zealand Popular Songs and Ballads" by Rona Bailey, Herbert Otto Roth, Neil Colquhoun, 1967.
"The Sea, Ships and Sailors: Poems, Songs and Shanties" by William Cole, 1967.
"Australian Boy Scouts Song Book: Songs, Shanties, Rounds,..." by Australian Boy Scouts Association, 1968.
"Shanties and Sailors' Songs" by Stan Hugill, 1969.
"Shantymen and Their Shanties: An Address" by A. E. Smith, 1971.
"Shanties" by Hermann Strobach, Jens Gerlach, 1971.
"Sea Shanties and Fo'c'sle Songs, 1768-1906" by John Holstead Mead, 1973.
"Sea Shanties" by Stan Hugill, 1977.
"Anglo-American Shanties, Lyric Songs, Dance Tunes and Spirituals" by Alan Lomax, Wayne D. Shirley, 1978.
"Songs My Father Taught Me: Shanties of the Square-Riggers" by Heather Margaret Vose, Stephen Murray-Smith, 1987.
"Sea Shanties and Sailors' Songs: A Preliminary Discography" by Robert J. Walser, 1989.
"Ten Shanties: Sung on the Australian Run 1879" by Graham Seal, George H. Haswell, 1992.
"All at Sea: 3 Famous Sea Shanties Arranged for Strings" by Daphne Baker, 1996.
"American Sea Shanties" by Ann-Lis Eklund, 1998.
"Shanties" by George Marston, 2001.
"Sea Shanties of Old Vermont" by Aaron Tieger, 2003.
"Yarns and Shanties (And Other Nautical Baloney)" by Jim Toomey, 2007.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:37 AM

Jim-

Nice list.

Here's some more sea music books:

Songs of Sea Labour: Chanties, Frank T. Bullen and W. F. Arnold, 1914

Songs and Chanties: 1914-1916, Cicely Fox Smith, 1919

Chanteying Aboard American Ships by Frederick Pease Harlow, 1962, 2004

Shantymen and Shanty Boys, William Main Doerflinger, 1951; republished as Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman, 1990.

Joanne Colcord also uses the term "shanty" in her book Songs of American Sailormen but not in the title.

No one seems to use the term "Tchantey" in a book title.

Sheerily,
Sharley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Joe_F (away from home)
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 05:39 PM

A lot of English words that came from French have "ch" in the spelling. If they came over with the Conqueror, they were pronounced with the tch sound at the time, and English kept that sound, tho (standard) French replaced it with the sh sound later on. More recent imports from French mostly have the ch spelling and the sh sound. Compare "chair" & "chaise" -- the same French word, two English words! (Never mind how the s got there -- it was silly.) Likewise, "chant" came from Old French, and "chantey", if indeed it came from French (which is likely but not proven), came from modern French. There is therefore nothing wrong with assimilating it to the many modern imports (machine, charade, douche, etc.). Nor, on the other hand, do we need anyone's permission to respell it with sh if we please. A bizarre example is "flour", which we took from (Norman) French without change in a subsidiary sense, but respelled "flower" in its main sense; who would want to undo that now?

Given the choice, I go for "chantey"; I find "shanty" distracting.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:41 AM

bump

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:09 AM

In Amharic, one of the major languages of Ethiopia, the "ch" sound could be reproduced as "tch" with an explosive glottal stop. You should not attempt this pronunciation while drinking beer in the presence of friends.

Tcheerly,
Tcharley Noble

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:41 AM

The most detailed evidence yet discussed anywhere on earth (AFAIK)concerning the word "shanty/chantey/chantie" is right here in Mudcat in the thread "Advent and Devlopment of Chanties."

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 12:33 PM

Consider Roger Abraham's book, "Deep the Water, Shallow the Shore," in which he discusses West Indian chanteying. Among the points he makes is that a) there were work chants used for for moving houses [shanties] from place to place and b) the origin of the word goes back to a period when spelling was not regularized.

Bear in mind that the English language has been described as "two cultures divided by a common language." The American group generally spells it as "Chantey" [except for Charley Noble]and the English group
tends to spell it as "shanty" with variations in both groups according to the user's inclinations.

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 12:38 PM

100