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Shanty or Chantey?

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GUEST,Phil d'Conch 01 Aug 22 - 02:06 PM
The Sandman 01 Aug 22 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 31 Jul 22 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 14 Jan 22 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 14 Jan 22 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 30 May 18 - 12:56 PM
RTim 29 May 18 - 10:57 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 29 May 18 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 29 May 18 - 07:09 PM
Steve Gardham 26 May 18 - 02:16 PM
GUEST 26 May 18 - 05:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 May 18 - 08:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 May 18 - 07:00 PM
Steve Gardham 25 May 18 - 06:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 May 18 - 04:15 PM
Steve Gardham 25 May 18 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 25 May 18 - 03:45 PM
Lighter 20 May 18 - 07:53 AM
Gibb Sahib 20 May 18 - 01:40 AM
Gibb Sahib 20 May 18 - 01:35 AM
Lighter 19 May 18 - 08:55 PM
Gibb Sahib 19 May 18 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 09 Feb 18 - 07:50 AM
EBarnacle 05 Sep 17 - 11:24 AM
Charley Noble 04 Sep 17 - 03:10 PM
EBarnacle 02 Sep 17 - 12:01 PM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Sep 17 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 01 Sep 17 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 01 Sep 17 - 07:33 PM
Gibb Sahib 07 Sep 15 - 01:15 AM
DMcG 06 Sep 15 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Lighter 06 Sep 15 - 12:41 PM
EBarnacle 06 Sep 15 - 12:03 PM
DMcG 06 Sep 15 - 11:39 AM
DMcG 06 Sep 15 - 11:32 AM
Lighter 06 Sep 15 - 11:25 AM
Airymouse 06 Sep 15 - 09:27 AM
Gibb Sahib 05 Sep 15 - 07:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Sep 14 - 01:17 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 14 - 01:40 PM
Bat Goddess 18 Sep 14 - 12:50 PM
Bat Goddess 17 Sep 14 - 11:07 AM
Airymouse 17 Sep 14 - 09:35 AM
Lighter 17 Sep 14 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,David C Kendall 17 Sep 14 - 06:50 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jan 14 - 07:33 PM
Gibb Sahib 14 Jan 14 - 05:17 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Jan 14 - 01:28 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 14 Jan 14 - 11:34 AM
Gibb Sahib 14 Jan 14 - 07:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 01 Aug 22 - 02:06 PM

Fwiw my last, the search term was "singing of the sailors".

I don't have an opinion. I have a list of them.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 22 - 06:19 AM

Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: RTim - PM
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:57 PM

I don't really care - but tend to use Shanty...it slips off the keyboard easier.

Tim Radford
My thoughts too, good post


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 02:55 PM

“I love the lullaby of the waves, which sound like the rustling of leaves of a mighty forest, and although the glimpse of the moonlight through the port window tempts to wakefulness, it is pleasant to slumber to the music of the ocean, varied only by the sound of the boatswain's pipe, the distant singing of the sailors as the hoist the sails to catch a favouring breeze, the half-hourly ringing of the ship's bells, and the answer of the man on the watch that “All's well.” The “shandy” man who leads the singing of the sailors when they go round in a gang washing the decks commonly improvises a song on passing events. After each couplet the gang join in a plaintive kind of chorus, reminding me of songs I have heard sung by the monks at night in Italy.”
[America in 1876, Pencillings During a Tour in the Centennial Year; with a Chapter on the Aspects of American Life, Leng, p.18, 1877]


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 09:21 PM

PS: The above is drifted over from the What is a Shanty thread. Like it or not, nowadays some people call their pseudo-shanty video games and TikTok stuff as just plain 'shanty.'

And while it is tempting to lay it off as a cyberspace thing, it appears some degree of that ages old show biz switcherooni may have been going on from day one.

Not speaking to the American minstrelsy crossovers per se, but that's certainly one aspect of it.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 08:53 PM

Ranger: English vs British shanty lingo. The so-called “New World” was also New Scotland &c. It was, and still is, culturally, linguistically and socially diverse but highly stratified, as if you didn't know that already I'm sure.

If one part of the vessel spoke proper English, the remainder likely did not. Also, it's undignified for a 'gentleman' to shout. The Exec's job was town crier (griot, gritador); the Boatswain's was translation:

c.1750
“Many crewmen aboard a given ship in either navy* were from the same area, which was a source of unity. In the French navy, regional differences were particularly important. Ships in the Mediterranean fleet were manned by crewmen from Provence and southern France, while in the Atlantic fleet crewmen generally came from Brittany and other regions along the Atlantic coast…. The gulf between officers and men was somewhat wider in the French navy because officers did not help to raise their own crews and usually spoke only French, while crews spoke Breton or Provencal.”
[Dull, Jonathan R., The Age of the Ship of the Line, (Lincoln: U. of Nebraska, 2009, pp.17-18)]
*French or English.

So if it's an English shanty/chanty on the quarterdeck, it will likely be a near subgenre on the foredeck but with a very different 'British' label. eg:
amrán
iomramh
iorram
iurram
jorum
joram
jorram
juram
òran


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 May 18 - 12:56 PM

PPS: Mo French in the colonial shantytown drift.

Another, older, North American name for shantytown was shantyville. Sawmills are mentioned early & often but also mining towns or even a small gathering of covered wagons around a roadhouse.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: RTim
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:57 PM

I don't really care - but tend to use Shanty...it slips off the keyboard easier.

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:11 PM

FYI: In Creole, the “r” in chantrelle or troubadour is often pronounced as “w” ie: chantwell & twoubadou.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:09 PM

Folk history alert, none of the following is true, except maybe all of it. ;)

One of the most popular edible mushrooms in North America is the chanterelle (cantharellus cibarius.) The diminutive is “chanty,” no “e.”

Held one way the mushroom looks like a funnel or flute...

late 18th century: from French, from modern Latin cantharellus, diminutive of cantharus, from Greek kantharos, denoting a kind of drinking container.” [OED online]

“Inverted” it's a bell...

f. The treble, in singing; also, a treble string, or bell; also, a small bell for a chyme.
[A Dictionarie of the French and English Tongues, (London: 1650)]

No idea about the French minstrel or chantyman's fiddle strings though.

Apropos nothing at all, another name for shantytown is... mushroom town.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 18 - 02:16 PM

The mind boggles!


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 18 - 05:26 AM

I once received a topless hand chandy in Weymouth if that helps...


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:12 PM

try again

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/leisure/stage/16249526.WHAT__39_S_ON_THIS_WEEKEND__Fayre_in_the_Square__Jazz_Jurassica__Nothe_Fort_1


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:00 PM

just in case, theres anyone reading this Dorset Wrecks have got a gig tomorrow in Hope Square, Weymouth. The weekend after its Wessex folk festival and theres bound to loads of shanty singing, and even some chantey singing going on round the harbour in Weymouth.

href="http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/leisure/stage/16249526.WHAT__39_S_ON_THIS_WEEKEND__Fayre_in_the_Square__Jazz_Jurassica__Nothe_Fort_1">http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/leisure/stage/16249526.WHAT__39_S_ON_THIS_WEEKEND__Fayre_in_the_Square__Jazz_Jurassica__Nothe_Fort_1


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 May 18 - 06:06 PM

Ah yes, Jolly Rogers and Do-me-ammerstein in the South Pacific! I remembers it well!


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:15 PM

Many times afore the mainmast we sang, 'Some en-chantey evening! me boys!'

the romance of the sea....


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:02 PM

I really don't think it matters that much. I for one am happy to accept the ultimate French derivation of the word via Gulf port influence. However, the songs had been in use for a couple of decades before anyone was using the word to describe them. I have been using 'chanty' for a couple of years in my own writing and I'm happy with that, though I don't object to anyone else using a different spelling.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 May 18 - 03:45 PM

Constant reminder: God didn't make the Chantyman from a handful of clay c.1800. He evolved. The era under discussion has centuries of Roman Catholic maritime culture replaced wholesale with the secular/Protestant equivalent, book burnings and all.

Sailor's Society for Stella Maris; “two-six-heave” and Let the Bulgine Run in for Salve Regina; chantyman for chanter, celeuste &c. Afaik Catholic sailors weren't all that welcome again in Martha's Vineyard environs until the early 20th century.

So if you're shooting for any logic, order or uniformity, past, present or future, for Acadia, Nantucket, Texas and California chanty application, pronunciation or spelling fuggedaboudit.

Lastly & pedantly, the so-called low, mean or crude end of the chanson scale would, methinks, traditionally come from the provençal minstrel or “chanterre” (cantores, cantatores, canteour &c) not “polite society's” psalm chanters.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 07:53 AM

> The antecedent (though not the origin per se) of chanty, I argue, is chant.

A subtle but meaningful distinction.

I concur entirely that the mere appearance of the word "chanty/ shanty/ chantey" doesn't *by itself* tell us anything about the practice of sailors or stevedores at work. The early evidence you've collected indicates strongly that the singing came before the word.

Nobody ever said, "If we sing, our work will be easier! And let's call these new work songs "chanteys"! Like a trademark thing!"

As you say, if an early chantey sounded chant-like to an observer, it would have been called a "chant." Otherwise it would have been called a "song" (the word Dana used in the 1830s).

The usual pronunciation of "chant" strongly suggests to me that "chantey" comes from elsewhere - presumably French or Gulf/Caribbean French Creole, etc. I also agree that "chantyman" came first.

It may have been in a context where English was dominant but the chanteyman began the work by shouting "Chantez!" in French. That made him the "chantez man" to English speakers. That would explain the "sh" pronunciation. The vowel change would then have come from association with English "chant." And, as you say, a "chanty" became the song led by a "chanty-man" - particularly if the English-speaker also knew some French.

In other words, the origin of "chanty/ shanty/ chantey" is complex rather than singular.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 20 May 18 - 01:40 AM

A public admission here, as well: I have not directly examined (but do hope to some day when the opportunity comes) examined the 1850s manuscript I mention. Rather, I am trusting the transcription of the manuscript by Stuart Frank et.al. (I see no reason not to trust his transcription, though as a matter of formality I would like to put my own eyes on it.)

I mention this because it is the earliest document I know of with the word, and it's not, I think, something that people are generally aware of.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 20 May 18 - 01:35 AM

I'm honored to be published in the same journal as you, Lighter! My inspiration for seeking the journal was that Lyman article/note published in it in the 50s.

For those reading along, I don't claim to tell the "origin" of the word chanty, but rather investigate its known development to learn certain things about it and the chanty genre.

The two things that I think are my main contributions:

1. Establishing, pretty firmly I think, that "ch" is the etymologically "correct" spelling. That doesn't mean whatsoever that one must spell it that way, just that *if* one is interested in spelling words in ways that do well to preserve or reveal their origins, then "ch" is the best choice.

2. Argument that the term "chantyman" preceded the term "chanty." Instead of seeking the origin of the term "chanty" directly and assuming "chantyman" is its derivative, I argue that one might be better off seeking the origin of "chantyman." This speaks to the "issue" of the "y"; I think one would tend to get different results if one followed a path to explore an explanation for the y in chantyman versus doing the same for chanty.
The antecedent (though not the origin per se) of chanty, I argue, is chant. Not much of a revelation, but rather an effort to decrease the likelihood of other proposed derivations.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Lighter
Date: 19 May 18 - 08:55 PM

Thanks for the heads-up, Gibb. Great article.

Before the age of the Internet, new words from non-literary sources often took many years, even decades, to enter print with any frequency. It seems certain, for example, that "O.K." effectively originated as a lame joke in a Boston newspaper in 1839, but it wasn't till after the Civil War that it began to appear much in print. It took even longer to become current in novelistic dialogue.

All of this is entirely consistent with your suggestion - based in part on W. Clark Russell's recollection - that "chantey/shanty/chanty" was not a word known to the majority of deep-water sailors (especially not British sailors) before the late '60s or early '70s.

The same journal published my first article back in - well, let's just say "back in the day" and leave it at that.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 19 May 18 - 06:57 PM

_American Speech_ has published an article of mine on this topic.

“The Execrable Term”:A Contentious History of chanty. _American Speech_ 92.4 (2017): 429–458.
https://read.dukeupress.edu/american-speech/article-abstract/92/4/429/134095/The


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:50 AM

Won't solve anything but...

At the other end of the Mississippi from the lumberjacks, "chantier" usage had more emphasis on the "tier," as in layered stacks (or stocks.)

A lumberman's chantier was a stockpile.

A nautical chantier was the scaffolding under and around a ship on the ways, also a kind of "stock" in English.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Sep 17 - 11:24 AM

And a Barbary doll to you, Charley!


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 03:10 PM

The earliest reference I can find to a chaneyman is from the French children's book Chanticleer. The first verse and chorus runs:

Chanticleer, the Shanghaied Rooster

Dm---F---------------Dm---------C------Dm
Good friends, draw near, I've a tale to tell,
-------F-------Dm----------F----C-Dm
Of a rooster bold called Chan-ti-cleer;
--------------F---------C---F---Dm
Who sailed upon the o-cean blue,
----------F---Dm-----------C--Dm
Return-ing home with ri-ches rare.

Chorus:

Dm----F-----------Dm------C---------Dm
Crow high, crow low, and so sailed he,
Dm-------F------------------Dm---C-----Dm
Cock-a-doddle-do, as the wind blows free,
Dm----------F----------------C---Dm
Crow high, crow low, and so sailed he,
--------------F--------------Dm--C--Dm
Bold Chan-ti-cleer who sailed the sea!

Stick that in your crop and crunch it!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 12:01 PM

We sang a chantey as we moved the shanty where they made our chutney.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 09:00 AM

Having specialised in maritime music for nearly 30 years before 'retiring' I am not bothered what spelling people choose to use. I have always used the shanty spelling. What is more important for me is understanding the job the shanty was used for, and singing it in a way that works with the job.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:52 PM

Seriously though, on the spelling:

If you're doing the spelling, work it out with your editor or whatevs in the prelims.

If you're reading (read searching) - I'll see Gibb's comments elsewhere about learning to deal with the "ch" and raise you the "u" - "e" - "ſ."

But that still leaves out the why it's important as a sorting criteria as applied to what they are or opposed to all the other names for them in other languages.

Off to the other threads I guess.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:33 PM

What's in a name?

Many years ago the task of going aloft on the smaller conchy sailing vessel went to the youngest sailor.

They told us the ancient Roman navy term was funambulus, a "rope dancer." They told us the so-called circus "tight-rope walker" was properly a "funambulist." Way cool.

Lost in translation...


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Sep 15 - 01:15 AM

Holy off-topic, Batman!


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 01:03 PM

You might have missed that he was my classics teacher, Lighter. It was, therefore Classical Latin and Greek we were studying, not modern English. So any fault is mine in carrying a habit I learned a long time ago forward.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 12:41 PM

Carabao? That too is often pronounced as "caribou." (Even I would call that a mispronunciation, for reasons to complicated to go into.)

Anyway, "cognate" terms don't have to share a pronunciation feature. Being "cognate" only means they're related by origin.

For example, English "maiden" and German "Maedchen" are cognate. They both descend from an earlier, now-extinct Teutonic word-form. But the "kh" sound that persisted in the German word fell out of use in English long ago. (And no one apparently wants to bring it back from the fifth century either.)

As for "cherub" (plural "cherubim): Greek, of course, had a "k" sound. So did Latin when the Romans adopted the word.

But Latin in the Middle Ages was pronounced differently all over Europe. In English-based Latin, the written "ch" was pronounced as in "church," regardless of the centuries-obsolete pronunciation of Classical Latin and Greek.

So anybody who says (or worse, insists that others say) "kerub/ kerubim" is a thousand years behind the times and, one might say, not really speaking English.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 12:03 PM

Caribou?


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 11:39 AM

This Wikipedia extract may explain why: "The Hebrew term cherubim is cognate with the Assyrian term karabu, Akkadian term kuribu, and Babylonian term karabu; the Assyrian term means 'great, mighty', but the Akkadian and Babylonian cognates mean 'propitious, blessed'.[3][4] In some regions the Assyro-Babylonian term came to refer in particular to spirits which served the gods, in particular to the shedu (human-headed winged bulls);[4] the Assyrians sometimes referred to these as kirubu, a term grammatically related to karabu.[3] "


k sounds all!


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 11:32 AM

That 'ch' can be tricky. My classics teacher at school used to insist we pronounce 'cherubim' as if it were 'kerubim'. It stuck with me and I tend to stand out in every carol concert!


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 11:25 AM

Contrary to popular misconception, the authoritative Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Wesbter Online both recognize "sizzum" and "skizzum" as legitimate pronunciations of "schism."


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Airymouse
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 09:27 AM

Summary
Chantey/shanty two spellings one pronunciation
Chaps one spelling two pronunciations (though "shaps" is less common)
schism one spelling one pronunciation (Those who do not know the ch is is silent are mispronouncing the word, though the result is not so awkward as making the same mistake with fuchsia.)


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 Sep 15 - 07:07 PM

Re: Evidence in print of the TERM (I'm not concerned as much with the spelling) chanty/chantey/shanty/etc.:

I have been working with Clark's _Seven years_ (1867) as the earliest cited reference to the term -- while assuming, at the same time, that there is probably some earlier evidence waiting to be found.

Well, here is some earlier evidence I have "found": a whaleman's journal entries from 1859 have "shantie."

The reason for my scare-quotes is that the source isn't exactly new; granted, perhaps few people have really examined it, but the people that have would be at least somewhat close to discussions of chanties. Nonetheless, I'm not aware that they have presented it in this light.

if you'll excuse a cut 'n' paste (I'd rather not re-type these details) from a FB post:

//
One might suppose the term "chanty" (or, as it may be spelled, "shanty," "shantey," "chantey," etc.) was known from the beginning, more or less, of the existence of the work-song genre or repertory to which the term refers. Although it's possible that was the case, evidence of the term, so far discovered, only appears in documents dating from a period well after the genre began to develop.

Whether one subscribes to the idea, developed by myself, that the chanty genre developed from forms of song sung in African-American non-seagoing work contexts going back at least to the late eighteenth century, or if one prefers to see shipboard chanty-singing that emerged in the 1830s as a starting point, in either case one has to settle for references published significantly later to date the term itself.

One of the best known references to s term morphologically and contextually similar to "chanty" is the mention of cotton stowers' "chants" in Nordhoff's _The Merchant Sailor_ (1855). Nordhoff, observed the singing of cotton-stowers in Mobile, AL in 1848. That these "chants" were sung by a "chantyman" confirms that they were connected to the tradition of what we know as chanties. However, the familiar form ending in a /y/ sound does not (i.e. as far as is known) appear in a publication until the 1860s.

The Oxford English Dictionary long offered an 1869 _Chambers's Journal_ article, which referred to /shanty/, as the earliest known source. It was later discovered that Clark's _Seven Years of a Sailor's Life_, 1867, contained /chanty/, and the OED now reflects this revision.
However, an earlier, manuscript source, long known to historians of whaling out of New England, contains plenty of earlier evidence for /shanty/. Nonetheless, I have never encountered it in any discussions about the age of the term.

The source is the journal of William Abbe while he worked aboard the whaleship _Atkins Adams_ out of Stonington, CT, 1858-1859. Given the difficulty of deciphering the writing in many such journals and logs, it is not at all surpassing that this late 1850s whaleman's journal went unnoticed. I conjecture, additionally, that the small set of whaling historians who did take the pains to study Abbe's journal may have taken the term for granted, perhaps not realizing the significance of its appearance in an 1850s document.

Beginning in entries from 1859, Abbe refers to "shantie" or "shanties" some ten times. For example, in the entry for January 4, 1859, Abbe wrote,

'We began to sing Shanties last night in hauling off sheets or lowering on halliards, Jack leading in "Johnny Francois" & "Katy my darling" and all hands taking up the refrain & pulling with a will. This pleased the mate, who told us that was pretty well for the first time, that he liked to hear us make a noise, as it showed that Jack -- "not Allegany" -- but any one of us, was awake. He laughed, rubbed his hands, & crew out "that's the way, sailors." The first time when lowering away on f. t. sl halliards, Tom set them all a roaring by his ludicrous singing, till Mate & all laughing, they were obliged to avast singing, and haul away without the "Shantie," but the next attempt was more successful, & we hauld home the main sheet in fine style.'

My "discovery" of these references would not have been likely if it weren't for the fact that the late William Wyatt (d.2011), a retired professor of Classics at Brown University and a volunteer at the New Bedford Whaling Museum, transcribed Abbe's journal. Wyatt's transcription was posted fairly recently to the NBWM's website. (The page is marked as last modified in Aug. 2014.)

_Journal of my Whaling Cruise in ship Atkins Adams_ is part of the Old Dartmouth Society's collection, log # 485. The transcription can be seen here:
http://www.whalingmuseum.org/…/library/projects/atkins-adams
//

The journal from ATKINS ADAMS is familiar as the source for a version of "Old Maui," given by Gale Huntington. I have not seen the manuscript directly.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 01:17 PM

This argument goes round and round.
In the words of the immortal Alfred E. Neuman, "What, me worry?"


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 01:40 PM

Like Jon I moved quite a while ago to using 'chantey' which I was led to believe was older, and it doesn't get so confused, 'shanty' having other meanings which may or may not be related. But like Linn I'm happy to see either. Plenty of other words have alternative spellings.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 12:50 PM

ONLY A SHANTY IN OLD SHANTY-TOWN

by Jerry Bryant

It's only a shanty in old shanty-town
Away you, Santee, and blow the man down.
Where Haul Away Joe goes down to Hilo
And Stormalong's drinkin' with Reuben Ranzo.
Shallow Brown, Hieland Laddie, and Jack's in cahoots,
And so we will pay Paddy Doyle for his boots,
And with Boney we'll roll that old woodpile on down
To a shanty in old shanty-town.

I'm not losing any sleep over the spelling of the word referring to maritime work songs. And I think most agree it's pronounced "shanty" at least since sailors' use of the term in the 1850s.

Linn


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 11:07 AM

How about Jerry Bryant's ditty to the tune of (and parodying) "A Shanty In Old Shantytown"?

If I post the lyrics, it WON'T be from my iPad!

Linn


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Airymouse
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:35 AM

You guys are way over my head, but here are a few random thoughts:
I've heard "chaps" (the leather kind) called "shaps". Somebody above used the word "schism". That word has a really hard ch (to pronounce) because it's silent. "Schism" gives history buffs fits, but luckily they seem to be able to handle the silent ch in "fuchsia." Finger's book of songs collected in 1897 is called "Sailor Chanties and Cowboy Songs." "Welsh rarebit" like "Jaws Harp" goes back centuries, but my favorite entry in Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary is,
RAREBIT, n. A Welsh rabbit, in the speech of the humorless, who point out that it is not a rabbit. To whom it must be solemnly explained that the comestible known as toad-in-the-hole is really not a toad, and that riz-de-veau a la financiere is not the smile of a calf prepared after the recipe of a she banker.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 07:35 AM

Somewhere on this thread (or a similar one) is nineteenth-century evidence (unearthed by us) that "shanty/chantey" is indeed related to French "chanter."

So I've mostly switched my own spelling.

Not that it makes any real difference.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: GUEST,David C Kendall
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 06:50 AM

Well I'm going to have to join this group soon, because it's all just too interesting, and I thank you all for the lively debate, informative and entertaining. Having always heard and used the word pronounced as 'shantey' , I now live in France and I find that I am no longer a singer, but instead a chanteur, also pronounced in french with a 'sh'... I'm staying with the same pronunciation as always, with the assumption that 'chantey' is an adaptation of the french word 'chanson', which means 'song'... The french, by the way, have loads of sea chanties I would like to see eventually have better exposure in forums like these for their historical context at least. Thanks, all!


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:33 PM

Just been looking at the thread, "In a Shanty in Old Shanty Town." One of the first songs I learned as a kid back in 1932 (nine years old).


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 05:17 PM

The lumberjack's "shanty" has been derived from French "chantier" ( = work-site, camp) as well.

Believe it or not, the form /chantierman/ (sounds like "shantyman") appears in print at least a couple times, in reference to the lumbermen. IIRC, one instance makes a note about their particular musicality, and another brings up the word to show how French had been creolized (up North), the combo of a French word and an English morpheme.

I have so far rejected this information, as not particularly useful to the study of work-songs, however. There just aren't enough ties to context.

I have not rejected the possibility that "chantyman" is creolized French from another locale, or the possibility that the "chanty" component of it may derive from some familiar word like chantier (= dock) or chanteur (= singer) - e.g. to construct something like "singer-man" or "dock-man." To accept the latter as a possibility, it helps to consider my observation that "chantyman" may have been the word from which "chanty" is derived, rather than the other way around, and to remember that the first chantymen were stevedores.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 01:28 PM

The only connections I have come across connecting the hut and the song are Doerflinger's book title and the claim of the songs sung by West Indian's when moving a shanty. I don't think there is a musical connection between the lumberjacks and seamen. Some men may have been involved in both trades but not using a musical connection.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 11:34 AM

Shanty, as would be defined as a dwelling, derives from the Gaelic "seann-taigh" (old house) pronounced something like "shawn-tie". Lumberwoods were heavily populated by Irish and Scotch Gaelic speakers using the words for the crude camps where they stayed while cutting logs throughout the winter. From that they came to be called shantymen, and although music and song was a vibrant part of their culture the term shanty may be simply a homonym to a sea chant.


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Subject: RE: Shanty or Chantey?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:42 AM

A bit of humor/humour related to this thread!

shanty man or chanty man


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