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English Concertina bowing reversals

The Sandman 24 Nov 09 - 08:51 AM
The Sandman 25 Nov 09 - 12:55 PM
The Sandman 25 Nov 09 - 04:56 PM
Desert Dancer 25 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Guran 26 Nov 09 - 02:05 AM
The Sandman 26 Nov 09 - 07:41 AM
Guran 26 Nov 09 - 10:11 AM
The Sandman 26 Nov 09 - 06:04 PM
The Sandman 27 Nov 09 - 07:34 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Nov 09 - 07:57 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Nov 09 - 08:02 AM
The Sandman 27 Nov 09 - 08:17 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Nov 09 - 08:27 AM
The Sandman 27 Nov 09 - 09:38 AM
The Sandman 27 Nov 09 - 11:12 AM
The Sandman 06 Dec 09 - 01:01 PM
The Sandman 07 Dec 09 - 05:55 PM
The Sandman 27 Dec 09 - 03:35 PM
The Sandman 27 Dec 09 - 04:52 PM
The Sandman 30 Dec 09 - 10:29 AM
The Sandman 31 Dec 09 - 12:18 PM
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Subject: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 08:51 AM

Here is a useful exercise for the EC, take the first bar of Drowsy Maggie, which has a crotchet then six quavers, play the first crotchet in the same direction as the first quaver then reverse for the next two quavers,then reverse for the next two quavers, then reverse for the next two quavers.then either reverse or keep going the same way for the last one.
or crotchet quaver then reverse, three quavers,reverse two quavers.
I am now starting to use a paired quaver then reverse,to some extent in polkas.this gives some idea,although nI have been playing it in a bit since then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Td1lJL0eQ


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 12:55 PM

here is a suggestion for beginners when playing in 6/8 jig time,Irish jigs have an emphasis for dancing which is on the first and to a lesser extent the fourth beat,so reversing bellows at the beginning of every bar is a good starting point,then try occasionally reversing the bellows on the fourth beat.
the next step as well as listening to a lot of dance music is to start following fiddle slurs,reversing bellows at the beginning of each slur,occasionally putting in a couple of paired slurs where it might seem appropriate.
one of the advantages of both the English and the Duet,over the Anglo is the ability to follow fiddle slurs,without being limited by enforced direction change.
the Anglo is the more intrinsically rhythmical instrument,but with careful thought,involving finger attack for staccato and bowing reversals,the English and Duet can emulate fiddlers phrasing with reasonable success.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:56 PM

of course,reversing bellows at the beginning and end of a musical phrase,is also important,very often in jig time,the note preceding the first beat of the bar, begins a musical phrase, this[imo] should be played in the same direction as the first beat of the bar.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

Regarding your last comment, I'd think that the bellows reversal would want to go with the beat emphasis, so more likely (depending on the "flavor" of the jig) would go on the first beat of the measure, even if there were pick-up notes in the phrase.

However, I'd also note that one can give emphasis with the bellows without reversing them...

There are some EC players over here, notably Ken Sweeney and Dave Paton (yes, Sandy's son) who use bellows reversals quite a bit for reels and jigs. cd with Dave Paton

I'm at the "getting up to speed and building repertoire" stage of things myself, and haven't worked that much on this aspect. ;-)

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: GUEST,Guran
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:05 AM

Becky:"Regarding your last comment, I'd think that the bellows reversal would want to go with the beat emphasis, so more likely (depending on the "flavor" of the jig) would go on the first beat of the measure, even if there were pick-up notes in the phrase".


RE: I do agree with Dick if "the musical phrase" actually includes an "upbeat" or "pick-up note". Generally speaking about typical 6/8 straightforward jigs however with no such "pick-up notes" having just one reversal/bar ( and on 1st beat) I do not find naturally rhythmical in the best sense since that also means having every other bar beginning on pull and every other on push which is neither efficient nor in my view intuitively comfortable.

It is always more efficient with squeezebox-playing having the strong beat on pull but quite a few concertina players for some reasons do not practise that.
With Anglos it may come natural in one way having strong beat on push since the tonic and dominant(even when existing on pull) basically is on push and the keyboard is designed that way.With some unisonoric instrument like English or Duet this has no importance and there is no such argument against the routine with emphasis on pull.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:41 AM

Becky,
its reasonably common practice,for irish fiddlers to play pickup notes with the main beat with one slur, I prefer a down, because from my own personal experience,I can get more oomph with a down.
One old irish fiddler i used to play with,gave me the example of the blackthorn stick[in g],and said to me,play the lead in note with a down sweep,with the next few notes.
of course its only one way of doing it,and people must do what they themselves prefer, there are[imo] no rules.
Guran,I find it marginally easier to get more emphasis when pushing.
but [imo]the important point is the reversal


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: Guran
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:11 AM

Dick:"Guran,I find it marginally easier to get more emphasis when pushing.but [imo]the important point is the reversal"

RE: Well, for the bodywork itself it hardly matters whether the emphasis is on pull or push, the antagonist muscles usually are just about as strong,but habituation is important and one can not just change any habit and be comfortable with something new. Simple mechanics however ought to tell us that having the emphasis on pull is more efficient, it is just a matter of being consequent taking the time to re-learn ( if one wishes to sacrifice the necessary agony from the crossover phase of course...)

Never mind, I do agree that finding musically natural and expressful methods is the main object!If we compare fiddle and concertina again it also comes more analogous having the emphasis of the strong beat
on "down-bow" and "pull" respectively as the arm movements then will be more alike: drawing the arm outwards.

If you haven't tried it before DO try just for curiosity the "cross-the-bellows-strap" trick I have advocated for since many years. It is entirely un-orthodox and many players may find it "cheating", or even silly, but there are a couple of proficient players who have adopted it (after some initial hesitation...)and it can mean a great deal for facilitation of bellowsing, particularly of the delcicate and quick reversals we are talking about here.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:04 PM

following irish fiddle bowing in reels, shows that reversing on first and third,is not always appropriate and is an over simplification, it is ok some of the time but misses the essence of irish fiddle bowing, which quite often, has four quavers, bowed one/ three, and also reasonably frequently ties the firstbeat with the first quaver of the second beat, so to get that bowing effect, a reversal is needed between the second beat and the following quaver, in effect the first bellow reversal occurs after one and a half beats.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 07:34 AM

of course an English Concertina player could follow the ins outs of a push pull instrument,a bc button accordion, a dg anglo, a c#dbutton, accordion, a c c#accordion,a cg anglo,or a dg melodeon,all of which will be rhythmical,and all of which will differ to some extent,in direction change,the advantage of these instruments are that they are not predictable in their bellows changes, but the disadvantage is that they cannot follow fiddle bowing very much.
I have just been reading a book called bluegrass fiddle,the author remarks that old timey bowing patterns are predictable ,often a pair followed by two seperates,he then says that bluegrass fiddling uses much more varied phrasing,which he thinks give the music more excitement.
when it comes to hornpipes,they are very often phrased,so that there are three stamp beats at the end of a phrase,these can be played by reversing on each beat if the player thinks it is appropriate.
I was recently playing with an anglo player and she was forced to reverse those three beats and I thought it suited that particular tune well.
of course it is possible to emphasuse without reversing by playing an octave or a double stop[two note chord].
I think experimentation is the answer


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 07:57 AM

"of course,reversing bellows at the beginning and end of a musical phrase,is also important,very often in jig time,the note preceding the first beat of the bar, begins a musical phrase, this[imo] should be played in the same direction as the first beat of the bar." (GSS)...this relates to what I asked about before: playing song-tunes on my recorder, I like to take one breath/per line of verse, and was wondering if that was always possible with a concertina...from the answer, I presume it may not be possible on longer lines, such as, e.g., those in (from my repertoire) "Two Young Brethren"..?


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 08:02 AM

....I mean all of one line on the push, then all of the next on the pull, etc.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 08:17 AM

if your concertina has six or seven fold bellows,yes.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 08:27 AM

...I don't have one, but am interested and shall keep that in mind, thanks.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 09:38 AM

of course it is important to understand the reason for 2/3/4 slurs up,it is to enable the first note after the slur to be a down which generally speaking has more oomph.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 11:12 AM

I have just been experimenting with some hornpipes,and groups of four notes played in a mixture of paired bowing and one three,with occasional across the bar bowing/slurring,works quite well.
it was more or less what i was doing before,but i had not given it much thought.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:01 PM

a very good exercise is to take the scales in my tutor , page 4,and practise reversing bellows,in pairs,then after three three and then a pair,then take the eight notes and play three one way and five another,and the try out all sorts of combinations.
it is possible to copy fiddle bowing,the one three combination,is quite important for irish music plus occasionally playing over bar lines.
in the next few days I will put something up on you tube


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:55 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn53Koqngl0


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:35 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtsZpDvkpsw


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:52 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWWSH3TAXNI


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 10:29 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQEE86htCxQ
this a tutorial for english concertina for a reel,illustrating bellows reversals following to a large extent fiddle bowing.


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Subject: RE: English Concertina bowing reversals
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:18 PM

something here on jigs,the lark on the strand,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA8lbdLqjhU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6duq7bSuRGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmqWMm2lGao a tutorial for beginners,for the english concertina


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