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Name for chord progression?

GUEST,Ed 24 Nov 09 - 10:47 AM
Mr Happy 24 Nov 09 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Ed 24 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM
Lonesome EJ 24 Nov 09 - 11:01 AM
pdq 24 Nov 09 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,Captain Colin 24 Nov 09 - 11:08 AM
The Sandman 24 Nov 09 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,leeneia 24 Nov 09 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Ed 24 Nov 09 - 11:16 AM
Leadfingers 24 Nov 09 - 12:12 PM
PHJim 24 Nov 09 - 12:16 PM
Terry McDonald 24 Nov 09 - 12:19 PM
beeliner 24 Nov 09 - 12:20 PM
PHJim 24 Nov 09 - 12:25 PM
PHJim 24 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM
Gibb Sahib 24 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM
beeliner 24 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM
The Villan 24 Nov 09 - 12:48 PM
pdq 24 Nov 09 - 01:18 PM
Tim Leaning 24 Nov 09 - 01:24 PM
beeliner 24 Nov 09 - 01:26 PM
Terry McDonald 24 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM
beeliner 24 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 09 - 10:39 PM
Songbob 24 Nov 09 - 10:44 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 09 - 10:49 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 09 - 11:57 PM
Terry McDonald 25 Nov 09 - 04:24 AM
Songbob 25 Nov 09 - 07:52 PM
The Sandman 26 Nov 09 - 10:46 AM
Terry McDonald 26 Nov 09 - 11:02 AM
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Subject: Name for chord progression?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:47 AM

Maybe a stupid question, but...

Is there a name for this type of chord progression?

Thanks,

Ed


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:52 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_progression


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM

Yes, I know what a chord progression is, thank you...


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:01 AM

How about D-G-A? Standard blues-type progression for the melody.

Now, as to what Clarence is playing? Just some extremely adept flat-picking. Thanks for the video link, Ed!


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: pdq
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:04 AM

A lot of Country singers did songs with three chords that sounded a lot like Blues.

The difference is that the White singers commonly used 16 bar structure, Blues singers 12 bar.

These are sometimes called White Blues.

{sorry I can't see Clarence White's tune 'cause my dialup don't "do" YouTube...}


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: GUEST,Captain Colin
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:08 AM

I don't think there's a specific name but if you said 16 bar blues most guitarists could guess what you meant I think.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:13 AM

crawdad song ,it has only three chords,tonic sub dominant and dominant its a basic blues progression.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:16 AM

Hello, Ed. I've played a lot of kinds of music and read books about music, but I've never encountered a name for a chord progression.

Actually, I think the term 'chord progression' is misleading. It implies that there are steps in order that lead to a finished product. But actually, chords can occur in any order, as dictated by the melody. It is true that they often end with the tonic, but there is no set order for how they get there.

I believe that 'chord sequence' would be a better term.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:16 AM

Thanks, all. I realised that it was a blues progression, but wasn't sure if there was a name for the 16 bar version.

Pretty much every guitarist would know what you meant by a "12 bar", but I'm not so sure about a "16 bar"

Hence the question.

Thanks,

Ed


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:12 PM

Only 'Named' Chord sequence I know is 'Fork Chord Run 3(a) which is Major , Relative Minor , Dominant and Sub Dominant ! As in Blue Moon . Diana , and THOUSANDS of other songs !


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: PHJim
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:16 PM

pdq said,The difference is that the White singers commonly used 16 bar structure, Blues singers 12 bar. These are sometimes called White Blues."
I've never heard the term "White Blues" applied to a chord progression. I wonder if he/she is referring to the Jimmie Rogers type of blues, which is essentially a 12-bar blues with a four bar yodel tacked on the end.

Jimmie also often changed the chords a bit:
I /IV /I /I7 /IV /IV /I /VI7 /II7 /V7 /I /V7 /
Yodel- I /V7 /I /V7 /


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:19 PM

Surely it's Major, Relative Minor, Sub-dominant and Dominant for Blue Moon et al?


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: beeliner
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:20 PM

Actually, it's usually tonic, relative minor, sub-dominant and then dominant.

Your version, however, is not completely unknown. I believe that Michael Hurley uses it from time to time.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: PHJim
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:25 PM

Guest,leeneia said," but I've never encountered a name for a chord progression."

Chord progressions are often given names that refer to their origin.
a "Blues progression" is the most common. "Rhythm changes" refers to the chord progression for "I've Got Rhythm". There is also a progression called the "We Want Cantor progression". Many bluegrassers refer to the "Salty Dog progression".
Some progressions are described with roman numerals, not really a name for a progression, but a description of a common progression.
eg I,vi,IV,V.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: PHJim
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM

Sorry, Terry and beeliner already mentioned the I,vi,IV,V progression while I was typing my previous message. They used words rather than Roman numerals.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM

Not a stupid question. I am not aware of a specific name for it in this context, but it would be good if there were one. It is definitely no "white blues" (?!). You'll note it's also a common progression in Gospel songs.

I dunno what all names for progressions you guys call things in "folk" scene, but in jazz there are plenty of names. "Rhythm changes" is the most common, probably. My feeling is that in jazz they would call this "When the Saints go Marching in"!! Works for me!

Gibb

P.S. To my once jazz-oriented mind, "Blue Moon" is simply I-vi-ii-V7 ("one-six-two-five")...or maybe 4 instead of 2....but we'd have called it that.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: beeliner
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM

For an example of the relatively rare tonic to relative minor to dominant to sub-dominant progression, listen to "Tea Song" on the Holy Modal Rounders' Too Much Fun CD.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:48 PM

It is such a pleasure to read this thread, even if I don't understand much of it, but to see so many people helping on this thread is great.
Very interesting even for me.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: pdq
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:18 PM

"The Crawdad Song" has a melody that (to me) sounds similar to parts of "Froggie Went A'Courting".

Both use just three chords: I, IV and V.

Can't see how the discussion of relative minors came in. They're not needed in this song.

On use of the term "White Blues", in this instance, is for a simple 3-chord Country song that uses 16-bar foundation and sounds Blues-like.

"Careless Love" shows up in Country Music at least as often as Blues, but it has 12-bar basic form. It can be called a Blues if you want. No real sharp line in this type of thing.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:24 PM

Yup very friendly and pleasant MR V.
Possibly informative too but I just woke up and no tea yet LOL


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: beeliner
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:26 PM

I would use four chords in Crawdad/Froggie, with a C7 between the C and the F in the third line of each verse.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM

So would I, and perhaps an Fm following the F. Isn't it the same chord sequence as Mama Don't Allow and This Train? (I used to be a skiffler....)


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: beeliner
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM

Also pretty much the same as "All Around the Mountain".

I like the Fm after the F!


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:39 PM

Re these last few posts: of course one can always put a 7 into the tonic before moving to the sub-dom, as the dominant of the key of the subdom is going to be the tonic of the key in which it is the sub-dom, & the added 7 gives that expectation of resolution [sounds a bit convoluted, but I am sure those who know all this follow me]; & it always sounds effective - as does occasional variation, just preceding a change, to tonic-minor.

But these are all frills. There are no major accompaniments which can't be achieved with just T, SD, D [or, if you prefer, 1, 4, 5], because between them these three will contain all the notes of the tonic scale..

And, in a minor key, surprising how much can often be simply achieved with only 2 chords: the tonic + the relative major of its dominant [e.g. D-minor + C-major, the relative major of A-minor]. Try it e.g. in 'One Sunday morning when on my way to Mass'.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Songbob
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:44 PM

Jazzers sometimes use progressions from well-known tunes and name them by the tunes ("Rhythm" for "I Got Rhythm" was named above). Some folk players do as well -- "Don't Let Your Deal Go Down" (or "Salty Dog" or 1000 other songs) is pretty common. I usually call that one the "Circle of Fifths" when I refer to it --

in G, for instance, it's G / E7 / A7 / D7 / G, and each chord is followed by the one it's the fifth note of, except the first change (to E7). It could easily be called the "Circle of Fourths" if you're counting forwards, but for some reason, we don't call it that.

The typical progression of I/IV/I/V7/I (in G, again, that's G/C/G/D7/G) doesn't have a name to my knowledge. It's used in a jillion songs, from "This Land Is Your Land" to "When the World's On Fire" (hidden trivia quiz -- why do I use those tunes as examples?).

The "Blue Moon" progression mentioned above (G / Em / C / G7 ...) is also common (1950s rock wouldn't have existed without it).

But naming progressions isn't terribly common in folk, it seems.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:49 PM

Furthermore, I often find it preferable to capture the atmosphere [if that's the right word] of a traditional tune by using the simple major, rather than the 7th, of the dominant-5th, as my dominant - not sure why that is; but if I am accomp'ing in D, will often prefer to use a 'D, G, A-major [rather than A7], D' sequence. Seems to me to give a 'folkier' tone that I can't quite analyse: perhaps the dom-7 gives something of an over-sophisticated tone, more redolent of pop than of folk, to an accompaniment?

Anyone any views on this wrinkle?


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:57 PM

... and sometimes substitute the relative- [rather than tonic-] minor of the subdom in above sequence, so that above sequence would become D - E-minor - A - D. (I have dealt with this re the Anglo-concertina on one of the concertina threads). This can sound good, because that relative minor will also be the tonic-minor of the dominant of the key of the dominant in key in which playing. (Hope that not too complexly expressed — there is probably a simpler way of putting it if I had the musical theory; but hope those who know of such things will get my meaning.)


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:24 AM

I'm with Mike on the use of 7ths in English/Scots/Irish traditional music - they just don't sound right so I never use them. Minor sevenths seem OK, though.


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Songbob
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:52 PM

Whether to use "whole" chords or "sevenths" is a style marker, to me, and can be individual style OR genre -- 7ths and 9ths are more "jazzy" to me, and ditto the minor-substitution-for-major (Dm for F, etc.). I quite often use non-7ths for the V chord, especially when accompanying fiddle tunes, flat-picking.

I am not fond of the "relative-minorization" of songs, though. That was the mark of a lot of songs in the Folk Boom, as I recall (it seemed that every song had at least six chords, major and minor, even if the original version had only two), and I grew to hate those. In fact, that's one of the things that led me to avoid "covers" of popular folk-songs, and to do my own accompaniments. I once opined that I didn't have a "style," because I did that "straight-ahead" accompaniment style, instead of the "arrangement" style some people use, and thought that the result was that I didn't have a "style." I was put right by Rita Ferrara, who pointed out that what I do with songs is indeed a "style."

So choice of chords, which ones to add, which ones to leave out, are a big part of "style," and can be a highly individual choice.


Bob


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 10:46 AM

I'm with Mike on the use of 7ths in English/Scots/Irish traditional music - they just don't sound right so I never use them. Minor sevenths seem OK, though
try them without the third note.
modal 7ths.eg root fifth and seventh,completely differnt flavour


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Subject: RE: Name for chord progression?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:02 AM

Dick - just tried that with E. Sounds OK but correct me if I'm wrong....doesn't playing those three notes together produce an E+ ?


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