Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A

Subject: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Folknacious
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 12:31 PM

It will be a bonanza next week for those who love to whinge. On Wednesday Radio 2 announce the nominees in the Folk Awards, then on Friday there's the final of the Young Folk Awards and the announcement on Radio 3 of who won the Froots Album Of The Year. Can I be the first to complain that I disagree with something, so that I can then take offence when somebody disagrees with me? ;-)

Does anybody want to open a book on how long it'll take before

a) Somebody says that awards are pointless
b) Somebody else disagrees with them
c) A thread on the subject (maybe this one) reaches 100 posts . . .

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: SunrayFC
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 12:36 PM

what a shame

change your name to obnokshus

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 12:47 PM

Well this year, will be the first I've even known of them, let alone heeded them, or indeed had the chance to grumble about them! So I guess I'll take note this year, and treat the results the same as I would any other media promotional event ie: not all that seriously.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:00 PM

(a) The R2 Folk Awards nominations are subject to a vote among the industry to determine the "best" in various categories over the past year.

(b) The Young Folk Award is a competitive event for the under-20s.

(c) The fRoots Album of the Year is voted on by (roughly the same?) luminaries as (a).

(a) and (b) labour under the added disadvantage of being under the auspices of the Smoothies.

May I be the first to complain about (b) on thegrounds that the final is being held this year in the theatre at Broadcasting House which holds an audience of around 6 and (at the moment of typing) I have not yet received an invitation and thus may be absent for the first time in 10 years.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:09 PM

The Radio 2 Folk Awards are er........................

fRoOtS is er........................................

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:43 PM

Nowt wrong as far as I am concerned.
However, I guess there are many jealous performers who don't get on the list and don't like it.
There are also the blinkered (I won't vote for anybody or listen to anybody who doesn't meet my approval) folkies.

Rather than be negative, lets just put up on here 5 acts who you would like to see in any of the lists. No long splurge on each act, just their names.

Some people I would like to see get in the lists are

Anthony John Clarke
Churchfitters
Kerfufffle
Jez Lowe and The Bad Pennies
Steve Tilston

There are many more, but I did recommend 5.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:47 PM

Yes please: "a long splurge on each act."
Some of us don't necessarily know...

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Chris Green
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:54 PM

Just a list of bands I've seen this year who've particularly impressed me. Some well-known, some less well-known - but all deserving of recognition!

Spiro
Edward II
Boldwood
Katrina Gilmore and Jamie Roberts
Belshazzar's Feast

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:58 PM

(a) FOLK AWARDS
Lifetime Achievement Awards for Leon Rosselson & Wizz Jones

(b) YFA
My best hope (Tom Moore) went out in the semis. Still, he's only 15 . . .


(c) fRoots CRITICS POLL 2009

Perhaps people should look at the nominations:

NEW ALBUM

Bassekou Kouyate & Ngoni Ba: I Speak Fula (OutHere)
Jackie Oates: Hyperboreans (Unearthed/One Little Indian)
Justin Adams & Juldeh Camara: Tell No Lies (Real World)
Khaled: Liberté (Wrasse)
Martin Simpson: True Stories (Topic)
Oumou Sangare: Seya (World Circuit)
Spiro: Lightbox (Real World)
Staff Benda Bilili: Très Très Fort (Crammed)
Tinariwen: Imidiwan (Independiente)
The Unthanks: Here's The Tender Coming (EMI)


RE-ISSUE OR COMPILATION

Chris Wood: Albion (RUF)
Franco & Le TPOK Jazz: Francophonic Vol. 2 (Stern's)
Various: Legends Of Benin (Analog Africa)
Various: Panama! 2 (Soundway)
Various: Three Score & Ten: A Voice To The People (Topic)
Woody Guthrie: My Dusty Road (Rounder)


Hard to think of a more representative list.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Chris Green
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:58 PM

That should of course read 'Katriona' not 'Katrina'. Oops.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Chris Green
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:01 PM

You're right - it is pretty representative. Not all of it's my bag, but I guess that's kind of the point of it really. Nice to see a little eclecticism! And Tinariwen are one the most exciting outfits around at the moment.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM

Crow Sister, I think it would be better just to put each artists Myspace A/C link.

My 5

http://www.myspace.com/wwwmyspacecomanthonyjohnclarke

http://www.myspace.com/churchfitters

http://www.myspace.com/stevetilston

http://www.myspace.com/kerfufflemusic

http://www.myspace.com/jezloweandthebadpennies

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:42 PM

Wow, Spiro... my local band.... cool :)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:53 AM

RADIO 2 FOLK AWARDS NOMINATIONS 2010

FOLK SINGER OF THE YEAR
Cara Dillon
Jackie Oates
Jon Boden
Martin Simpson

BEST DUO
Belshazzar's Feast
Damien Barber & Mike Wilson
Megson
Show of Hands

BEST GROUP
Bellowhead
Lau
Mawkin:Causley
The Unthanks

BEST ALBUM
Here's The Tender Coming – The Unthanks
Hill of Thieves – Cara Dillon
Hyperboreans – Jackie Oates
True Stories – Martin Simpson

BEST ORIGINAL SONG
Arrogance Ignorance and Greed – Steve Knightley (performed by Show of Hands)
Home Again – Martin Simpson
One Day – Martin Simpson/Martin Taylor (performed by Martin Simpson)
The Testimony of Patience Kershaw – Frank Higgins (performed by The Unthanks)

BEST TRADITIONAL TRACK
Cutty Wren – Mawkin:Causley
Sir Patrick Spens – Martin Simpson
Spencer the Rover – Cara Dillon
The Isle of France – Jackie Oates

HORIZON AWARD
Hannah James & Sam Sweeney
Katriona Gilmore & Jamie Roberts
Nancy Wallace
Sam Carter

MUSICIAN OF THE YEAR
John Kirkpatrick
John McCusker
Martin Simpson
Saul Rose

BEST LIVE ACT
Bellowhead
Edward II
Lau
The Bad Shepherds

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Silas
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 02:11 AM

SoH best duo?????

I love 'em, but they are not a duo!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 02:40 AM

Indeed, they are officially a trio now.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:20 AM

Cock up there then.

I am pleased to see Saul Rose in there for Musician Of The Year.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:21 AM

Interesting that the nominations for the Horizon Award has 3/4 of Kerfuffle. What has Tom done wrong? :-)

Otherwise I suspect it represents the festival scene rather than (say) the club scene.

And as TBE rightly points out SOH are not a duo.

From the website:

Miranda Sykes has been performing with Show of Hands since 2004, augmenting their unique sound with her powerful double bass and rich harmonies. In this time the band have moved on from their folk duo image, and evolved into a hard hitting acoustic band, selling out UK and European tours and headlining some of the biggest festivals across the world.

Hey ho.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:26 AM

I can't remember what the nomination process is R2 Folk Awards. Can anyone remind me?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:05 AM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:57 AM

Nomination process.

A number of luminaries are sent a list of POSSIBLE nominations. The number of luminaries varies - but around 150 as a median. Festival organisers, record companies etc. They can add to the list if they like.

They send in a vote for each category (or not as they like) Top four become nominations. Then they vote on those.

Things wrong with it? How long have you got?

It depends how you look at it. It can be great publicity for folk and often is.

Budget has been slashed in recent years.

But for an artist it means the difference between slogging up and down the motorway from gig to gig to finding it easier to get gigs close together. More festival gigs. A sense of worth.

To me the greatest wonder is how they manage to get things so wrong occasionally. The Pink Bunny Rabbit being an obvious one.

And it wouldn't hurt to publish the voting figures.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:58 AM

Some of that might be confusing. Sorry. Let me add some further information....

The list is sent as an aide memoire. It also helps people to remember what was released during that year,(though as we have seen in the past the year has been known to stretch). I am currently putingtogether a radio show of records released this year. That's be a god send to me. To be honest I am going to fudge it.

The panel nominates up to THREE names in each category, not just one, so the breadth of voting is probably a lot wider than people realise.

Another improvement I think would be useful is if the BBC published on their website a list of everyone who got even one nomination, as fRoots does with its critics poll. Then you would get a sense of just how wide the original range of nominations were...

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:43 AM

Strange, isn't it....that The Music of the People isn't allowed to be voted for, by The People themselves.

And the reasons for that are........?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:46 AM

Thanks Dave.

As you say, an imperfect system.

Though I do think some of the nominations are very good!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:47 AM

One anomaly which strikes me is the nomination of The Testimony of Patience Kershaw for "Best Original Song". Nothing wrong with the song of course, but it was written 40 years ago. So are they voting for the song or for the Unthanks' performance of it?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:25 AM

It is a non-traditional song which, if more than a year old, must have had a significant interpretation or performance in the past 12 months to qualify.

So the panel votes for both the interpretation and the song.

Jim Moray's All You Pretty Girls (an XTC cover) won last year largely because of his highly original arrangement.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Chris Green
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:27 AM

Re my previous post - three out of five aint's bad! Nice to see Kat and Jamie up for the Horizon, although there's some stiff competition. And if EII don't get best live act there really is no justice in the world.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:43 AM

Smooth Ops have different definitions than normal people, after all, it is about money, nothing else, and this is why if they say a trio is a duo for their purposes, it is, and likewise a newly written song is traditional and a 40 year old song is original.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM

Incidently, I was served By John Spiers in The Music Room in Cleckheaton this morning, really nice bloke.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 09:08 AM

To clarify my friend FolkieDave's comments ... the judging panel are sent a list of albums that have been released in the period appropriate to the award - so when FolkieDave writes:

<<>>

...this only applies to one of the categories - best album. There is no suggested nominations for any other category.

The judges this year have had to sign a document stating that they have no professional interest or relationship with the people they have nominated. That is different from previous years.

Derek

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 09:16 AM

Yes, but they're still not 'us' are they, Derek....

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: evansakes
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 09:23 AM

"The judges this year have had to sign a document stating that they have no professional interest or relationship with the people they have nominated"

Ah, but who knows how many back-scratching alliances are forged in the bar during the AFO Conference in Nottigham? (which invariably coincides with the Folk Awards voting period)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 10:15 AM

The bit in the brackets in my posting above was omitted ... the quote was intended to be:
A number of luminaries are sent a list of POSSIBLE nominations. The number of luminaries varies - but around 150 as a median. Festival organisers, record companies etc. They can add to the list if they like.

As I said above, that is not the case apart from the ciculation of a list of albums released in the appropriate period.

Show of hands still a duo? well, perhaps that's how the judges perceive them ... just think if they had been disqualified because of this ... the response would have been worse ("Smooth ops are anti-Show of hands" for example) ... and what is Smooth operatiosn supposed to do? Tell all the judges in advance that Show of hands are not a duo? That would have been construed as favouritism by mentioning one act, but not others.

Back-scratching alliances at AFO? I didn't see any taking place?

No voting system is perfect.
A public vote would probably lead to a lot of encouragement to vote for bands and singers with large mailing lists, fan sites, Facebook groups, websites and MySpaces. So that's not perfect either. For a public vote for best album, someone could look at CD sales for the year? And didn't those untalented twins keep winning XFactor or whatever on the telly? That was a public vote!

Derek

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:34 PM

Last year, a semi-official Committee, containing at least one well-respected, independent artist, two senior BBC suits and the original Smoops team, was established to vet the nominations, and check that there were no anomalies. (The Committee was referred to in last year's output). In the past this vetting had only happened informally, which is how the White Hare thing happened. When I suggested the use of a vetting layer, I made a strong case for the committee members to be named, so they would be accountable to a certain extent. Sadly that part of my suggestion was not taken up.

I don't know what's happening this year.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:58 PM

"No voting system is perfect."

But 'secret society' voting systems are the least perfect of all.


"A public vote would probably lead to a lot of encouragement to vote for bands and singers with large mailing lists, fan sites, Facebook groups, websites and MySpaces.So that's not perfect either."

Actually, it is as near perfect as is possible...because yes, even folk bands/singers/musicians only get to have a large following if they're excellent.

Of course, we all know, because Smooth Ops told us so, that the only reason they had to change the Public Vote from 'Best Live Act' to 'Best Obscure Non-Show of Hands Category to Vote For' was because if they'd left the public vote as er...'Best Live Act' Show of Hands would have kept winning it.

Now that tells me the bleedin' obvious....which is that Show of Hands are er....The Best Live Act....yet they are NOT allowed to be voted for, under that category, by the public.

Of course, the JUDGES got to vote on The Best Live Act, the year after Show of Hands won it, and they voted for....Bellowhead....who'd er...only been out there as a Live Act for a handful of occasions..but never mind, 'cos they're full of the Luvvies favourites, and many of the Luvvies are....er....JUDGES!

Yes, it's not Rocket Science, is it!

The Music of the People, forbidden to be voted on BY The People.

It could only happen in the Controlling Intelligensia PsuedoIntellechewall World of English Folk Music...


"For a public vote for best album, someone could look at CD sales for the year? And didn't those untalented twins keep winning XFactor or whatever on the telly? That was a public vote!"

Er...isn't this the Folk Awards? Or did I miss something. Are the XFactor twins up for Best Live Act then?

Probably, if the Judges are Judging!

;0)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Folknacious
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM

Great to see Nancy Wallace getting a nomination. What's surprising is not that there's folk life outside the central folk clique, but that enough of the central folk clique noticed. Will this be a defining moment or a "blip"? I'd have liked to see her version of I Live Not Where I Love in the trad songs too, but it's a start.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Ken J.
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:30 PM

Pretty much anyone could hang up a shingle and collect votes on albums. I did it for about 8 years back in the era when the Usenet folk group was vibrant, and I only gave it up because I got to be too lazy to manually run the tallying as the voter pool got near 100. There's probably software for vote counting now.

There is nothing in the way of the Mudcat Folk Awards or the Lizzie Folk Awards.   You might want to figure out how one would limit voting to real people, one vote each.

fRoots used to have a readers' album poll in the long ago days, but my vague recollection is that it was gently put to sleep because it always returned the predictable UK folk-rock winners, year after year.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: evansakes
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM

"Back-scratching alliances at AFO? I didn't see any taking place?"

If you didn't see it I take it back, Derek...it obviously couldn't have been taking place. :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 02:45 PM

Young Folk awards next Wednesday...

I heard Tri at Bedworth last weekend, and thought they were great, but it's only Niamh who's a finalist.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Ian Anderson
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 02:46 PM

fRoots used to have a readers' album poll in the long ago days, but my vague recollection is that it was gently put to sleep because it always returned the predictable UK folk-rock winners, year after year.

It was a general poll, with various categories like the Folk Awards, not just albums. But yes, that's exactly what happened. There was obvious encouragement to vote by people with big organised fan bases, there was obvious multiple voting by individuals, and of course its inevitable that the albums which had sold the most (which was already known) got the most public votes. So it was very predictable. We went to a "Critics poll" because we were then asking people who in the course of their work (and play) heard a larger and wider range ofwhat's out there, which then provides a service to readers and the musicians by highlighting the less well-known, the less publicised and sold, which might otherwise be overlooked.

Back-scratching alliances at AFO? I didn't see any taking place

Nor did I. People have much better things to do at AFO, which is a very inspiring, thought provoking, buzz-creating event. There was far more enthusing to each other about new artists worth checking out than about people we already knew. I know this doesn't fit very well with conspiracy theories, butt hereyou go!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Cats
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:08 PM

I will be keeping everything crossed for James Findlay. Those of you who know Jacqui Ross [his Mum] will realise where he gets his immense talent from. Add to that a very down to earth guy who is really genuine and has depp love and understanding of his music... Good Luck James

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:15 PM

Nice to see a feral folkie like Nancy Wallace getting in there. Hope she wins!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:20 PM

And I have been to the last four or five AFO conferences (though not this year). I never saw any conspiracy in action either.

But then the people who do see them probably weren't there.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:28 PM

With the greatest of respect Spleen Cringe, Nancy may have been "feral" at one time, but the exposure that she and Ian King et al have had through their features in fRoots and the related CD and live show on St George's Day have given them a level of exposure that would bring anyone into the mainstream.

Now we need to find more of these supposedly feral creatures - the ones who are still on the fringes of the mainstream folk community, maybe through choice or maybe not.

I found out about these guys recently:

trevor moss and hannah-lou


They run this in London:

The Lantern Society

Ian: when are you putting them in the magazine? :)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Smedley
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:48 PM

Folknacious, you have excellent taste - Nancy Wallace is fabbo (not a very Mudcat word, sorry) and I Live Not Where I Love is her best track.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:10 AM

Hey Ruth, I mean feral as a compliment not an insult! I like feral! Nancy is feral in so much as she's on a record label that exists outside of the mainstream folk scene and largely plays gigs and festivals outside of the mainstream folk scene. And Ian Anderson has an excellent track record of promoting off-piste folk music in fRoots. It's one of the reasons I buy his mag, to confirm what I already know about my own excellent taste...

Nice link, BTW!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:34 AM

And still they whinge!

No Ruzzer, no Jim Moray, no Waterson or Carthy, and not even a Julie Fowlis/Karine/Emily or any of the Scottish bands like Peatbogs, Shoogles etc.

Despite SOH, Bellowhead, Simmo & co being there to hold the fort for the 'Old Guard', this is largely the start of the New Wave emerging.

This can only be A GOOD THING, and exactly what all the whingers have been campaigning for over the past few years.

Are they never satisfied?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Folknacious
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:35 AM

It is the very nature of whingers that they are never satisfied. It's traditional, is it not?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:06 AM

"I found out about these guys recently:

trevor moss and hannah-lou


They run this in London:

The Lantern Society

Ian: when are you putting them in the magazine? :)"

I've been along to the Lantern Society and played there a couple of times. There's a bit of an incestuous scene there: the same people play at Easycome Acoustic (run by Andy from the Hankdogs in Nunhead for about 20 years), and the Basket Club in Brixton and the Snake Mountain Revue (also at the Betsey Trotwood). Basically the younger wing of musicians who used to (and still do occasionally) go to Easycome.

There are some interesting performers there. I think Trevor Moss & Hanna-Lou are alright, but I don't think they're the best in that little scene. Have a listen to the extraordinary Boycott Coca Cola Experience, Trent Miller, and The Lorcas. You might like Benjamin Thomas and Jason McNiff too, although for me both of them are a bit too in thrall to early Dylan at the moment.

If any magazines out there would like to commission an article on it, I'd certainly be happy to knock one out. :)

For my money, that bunch are about the most interesting things happening in folk/acoustic music in the UK. With the sole exception, that is, of the rather amazing Leeds/Yorkshire scene, which has more of an Americana slant (Michael Rossiter, David Broad, Liz Green, Benjamin Wetherill and co)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards, Young Folk Awards, Froots A
From: Vin2
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:06 AM

Do hope 'The Young 'Uns' get a mention. Their harmoies and arrangements are amazing.