English trad

Subject: Folklore: English trad
From: GUEST,doger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:10 AM

What is english trad music

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:33 AM

Most any music played in England I would imagine, doger. Name your genre & be glad.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:43 AM

I did say English trad music dear Suibhne O'Piobaireachd, does it have any thing to do with celtic trad music,
May the road rise up to meet you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:14 AM

This should get you started, Doger: English Folk Dance & Song Society

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:44 AM

I know what you said, Guest; sounds like you're wanting Revival Folk Music which is quite possibly the least Truly Traditional genre currently going down in our Green & Pleasant land just now. Last I heard it's level pegging with Elvis Presley Impersonation...

The last time the road rose up to meet me was when I was so drunk that when I fell over I was still upright, if you see what I mean. As far as I was concerned, the road had literally rose up to meet me and I was clinging to it so as not to fall down the street. Not pleasant, but very traditional!

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:50 AM

Sorry i spelled dodger wrong,if there is such a thing as english
trad music where did it come from, i think it should be called
english/celtic trad.the devil a care eat the rich.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM

if there is such a thing as english trad music

Of course their is. To suggest otherwise is pretty damn stupid.

Where did it come from

Let me think.... Possibly from English people playing their own music, and keeping what they liked???

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 09:03 AM

There are any amount of English Traditional Musics, Dodger - like I say, choose your genre: pop, rock, classical, jazz, drum & bass, bhangra, free-improv etc. etc. Like Guest, Ed says: English people playing their own music...

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 09:03 AM

Dear GUEST,Ed you said Possibly from English people playing their own music,but who were these English people you talk about?
the devil a care eat the rich.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English trad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 09:04 AM

The English people are the people living in England.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: IanC
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM

Let me see ... where do i start ...

Almost all bell music is English Trad
Most Christmas carols in English are English Trad
Even a large proportion of traditional music labelled "celtic" is English trad.

You might perhaps better ask what isn't English Trad

:-)

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:23 AM

Dear IanC did the English bring the trad with them when they came to Britain? the devil a care eat the rich.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: IanC
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:26 AM

Doesn't have to be 1500 years old to be trad.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:30 AM

So you are saying it appeard from nowhere?

Subject: RE: English trad
From: IanC
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:31 AM

Nope ... things eveolve ... shall we take bell music as an example?

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Gusty
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:32 AM

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23195

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:40 AM

Hi, Celtic music was playd in what the English call England, before the English came here, does the celtic trad not play a part in english trad? the devil a care eat the rich.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:50 AM

Dear cboody, you write a lot but say nothing please get to the point if there is one. the devil a care eat the rich.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Stu
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:54 AM

I assume the answer you got thesession.org wasn't enough?

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 11:25 AM

Dodger, could I suggest if you have a point you'd like to make, it's far better to simply make it, rather than to talk in riddles. We could at least then know what it is you want to discuss.

If it's traditional English music you want to discuss, you could do worse than follow the link I gave you and that you seem to have ignored. Of course there is crossover between some English songs and some English-language Irish songs, just as there is crossover between some English tunes and some French and Scandinavian tunes, and just as the border between Northumbria and Scotland, musically at least, is highly porous.


If you are talking about truly ancient music from this corner of the world from 1500+ years ago, can you show me where the evidence is that we can know what any of sounded like and where its roots were? When we talk about the traditional music we still know about, little of it is more than a few hundred years old and most of it is considerably younger.

Maybe you can give a few examples of the sort of songs and tunes you mean - English or "Celtic" (a fairly meaningless term that includes a disparate spectrum of traditional musics from Galicia, Brittainy, Cornwall, Scotland, Ireland, Man and so on - and none of which exists in a cultural vacuum).

I suspect you'll come across a bit less like a troll if you stop acting like one... and at least then we can enagage in useful discussion that we all might learn from.

In the meantime you might want to get yourself a copy of this book: The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 11:54 AM

Galicia, Brittainy, Cornwall, Scotland, Ireland, Manx and so on they all belong to the celtic music traditional,all i am asking is, where did the English trad come from, we know where the celtic trad came from.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 12:00 PM

Dear Sugarfoot Jack lets not get personal,sit back and enjoy who knows where will go with this.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Gusty
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 12:02 PM

http://www.thesession.org/members/display/50451

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 12:05 PM

The same place as any other traditional music. It was music sung by ordinary people and passed down/modified via the oral tradition. Because it's part of low culture, not high culture, the original authors of many of the songs are unknown to us, and in any case, the folk process has probably rendered the early versions unrecognisable -hence the multiple variations that have been collected for many of them. Some people would have also learned them from cheap, printed broadsides.

But I suspect that's not what you want to hear is it?

When you imply that "we" know where "the celtic trad" (or to be accurate, the individual traditions of countries and areas that are currently lumped together as "Celtic" to suit contemporary romantic sensibilities) came from, but not where the English tradition came from, what point is it you're trying to make? For a start off, who are "we" and what do "we" supposedly know? Or not know? If you were a bit clearer about what you want and where you're coming from, it would be easier to answer.

Otherwise I'll have to assume you're trolling and get my ass outa here.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

Response to Doger/Dodger's post of 30 Nov 09 - 11:54 AM. Though I'm not sure why I'm bothering. Slow day...

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 12:11 PM

A tradition is something you do repeatedly over a period of time, often over more than one generation. Presumably English traditional music would be that which has been performed for a period of time?

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:12 PM

when the Irish went over to America way back when ,they took there music with them, the scots did the same, when the English invaded Ireland did they bring there trad with them ,the many that stayed only play irish trad why not english trad,

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:15 PM

" . . . when the English invaded Ireland did they bring there trad with them ,the many that stayed only play irish trad why not english trad . . ."

I believe you are mistaken in assuming that English traditional music and Irish traditional music are discrete entities. Plenty of Irish tunes came from Scottish or English sources, lots of ballads as well.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:52 PM

"Otherwise I'll have to assume you're trolling and get my ass outa here."

I'm with you there, Spleen. Guest Dodger is obviously a troll - no-one could seriously believe such a total load of shite, or be so ignorant about the history of Britain.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM

Dear Goose Gander i agree with what you say that English traditional music and Irish traditional music are not discrete entities and you are right in saying that Plenty of Irish tunes comes from Scotland, take Miss Mccleods reel a lovely tune,all the way from the bonny land, its all celtic trad music but the English are on a differant planet than the rest of us?
May the road rise up to meet you.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: s&r
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 02:57 PM

Guest Dodger

You are WAV I claim my £100.00 prise

Stu

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:03 PM

And who might you be when you are at home dear s&r
whats a WAV ?
the devil a care eat the rich.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM

When someone 'innocently' asks a question like, "What is english trad music", my first thought is: go away and do the research! The information is out there - get off your ass and find it!

Then I realise that the questioner thinks that he/she is already in possession of 'the answer' and has some sort of twisted motive for asking the question - e.g. to 'slag off' anyone who has the temerity to believe that folk music is a limited and definable genre or to advance some dubious notions about 'Celtic' music.

It would be much more honest to begin such a thread by stating your opinion and then inviting other contributors to challenge it i.e. "I think that English trad. music is x, y and z, what do you think?"

But you don't want an answer to the question, do you? You want someone else to take responsibility for your opinions and reserve the 'right' to slag off anyone who disagrees with you.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:45 PM

"Whats a WAV"

Try Here

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:53 PM

Dear Dodger,

Get the following into your incredibly thick skull:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CELTIC MUSIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is all an artifact of the marketing people who have no idea what they are talking about but need a box in a record shop (or an online catalogue) where the they can put a disparate collection of CDs and sell them.

Once you have that sorted, you will then be in a position to start discussing your chosen topic in a sensible manner rather than simply reiterating the original question every time you don't here an answer you like.

Until then I suggest the best thing for you is to ignore you which I will do from now on.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:20 PM

I dont belive in God, so the wav is out ye talk a lot but say nothing are ye all English, and have ye the blinkers on ,i am not english .the devil a care eat the rich.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:22 PM

Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a lot of people played music because there wasn't any telly or radios or cds or mp3s and they played music on whatever instruments they could get to hand like whistles and fiddles and mouth organs and mouldyoldeons and pangolins and sometimes people wrote down the tunes they played so they wouldn't forget them and end up always playing the same tune over and over like some people I know and when people got better off they went to music halls and payed to get in and the professionals sounded so much better than amateurs that they got ashamed and stopped and then bought pornographs and wirelesses and player pianos when they got invented so that sort of music practically stopped except for a few morris players and then someone went and looked in the old books and saw the tunes and played them a bit like the morris players they'd heard and that's english trad.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:31 PM

Is morris dancing English? i think it came over from spain mr Paul Burke are you also english.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

Guest dodger is waiting for someone to as him what ' the devil a care eat the rich ' means, then he may be happy and go away.

Dave H

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:55 PM

Dear Dave Hanson such a nice name have you nothing to say on the topic.    Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Allan C
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:13 PM

"Did the English bring the trad with them when they came to Britain"

When the Scotti arrived in 5thC & 6thC Britain did they teach the natives how to sing and play any known Scottish traditional tune? This is a bit of a daft thread. Various people have stated the obvious that English tradition is the tradition of the English people - just as Scottish tradition is the tradition of the Scottish people. You seem to be lumping the tradition of the modern so called Celtic nations together as if they are all one and the same thing quite distinct from the English tradition - but surely that is nonsense. Surely the Scottish tradition has far more in common with northern English than it would with for instance Welsh, Cornish or Breton? Much of the tradition of northern Scotland and the Northern Isles is heavily influenced from Scandinavia too.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:31 PM

With all due respect to the Members who are trying to make sense of GUEST Dodger's question - Leave it alone -its a load of bollocks !
Any one wo posts as GUEST and does not post ANY Sense is best left alone .

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:56 PM

Aaaargh, Dodgeface has found his way here after Session suspenders!! is nothing sacred? enough!!!!!! go and find some more rich to munch!! :0

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 09:05 PM

Dodger's thread on The Session

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:56 AM

"Dear Sugarfoot Jack lets not get personal,sit back and enjoy who knows where will go with this."

Apologies, wasn't meant to be a dig, perhaps I should have put one of these on the end ;-)


;-)

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:33 AM

Dearst Leadfingers do you clean your mouth with toilet paper?

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:39 AM

At risk of feeding the troll...

None of the current musical traditions of these islands date back to the time of the ethnic migrations which became modern England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. With the exception of the harp, the instruments commonly associated with each of these traditions are mostly post sixteenth century, and in most cases much later. The traditions evolved along with the societies and were shaped by the instruments available to them. What we regard as the traditional music of both England and Ireland are mostly products of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and cannot be traced back to whatever our ancestors were playing in the Dark Ages.

All the cultures of the British Isles (which is a geographical label, by the way, not a political one, and predates any of the current national divisions) share a common tradition, at least where tunes are concerned. The music shares a similar structure, and in many cases a common repertoire. What distinguishes them is more a matter of regional style rather than content. With songs it is a little more complex, but mainly due to differences in language.

There has been cultural and social interchange between the nations of the British Isles for hundreds of years. As people travelled around, they left tunes behind them and picked up others. Yes, some English trad tunes originated in Ireland, if that is what you want to hear, but the reverse is also true.

"Celtic music" is nothing more than a marketing label which nobody with any knowledge of the music takes seriously. Irish music has far more in common with English music than it does with the music of Brittany and Galicia.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:03 AM

This thread might be helpful:

Define English Trad. Music

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:56 AM

Guest, "Jones" is not a Celtic name, although it is common in Wales. I am not "celtic", whatever that means.

The "English" did not "invade" these islands. Since the last ice age there has been as steady migration westwards. A number of peoples from Western Europe migrated into the British Isles over a lengthy period. No doubt this involved a certain amount of conflict, but your implication of a co-ordinated military takeover which evicted the native celts is pure fantasy. Anyway, the Britons in their turn had been part of an earlier migration. Over a period of centuries, which included further immigration from Scandinavia and Normandy (which was a Viking outpost)these peoples developed into what we now call "English", and their kingdoms merged to become England.

No doubt these peoples brought their own traditions with them. It is very unlikely they bore any resemblance to what we currently think of as English traditional music, any more than modern Irish trad can be traced back to the music of the Ancient Britons. Both are developments of the last few hundred years only.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:58 AM

What I should have said is that both are a shared development of the last few hundred years. As I explained earlier, there is a single British Isles musical culture, differentiated by regional styles.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:41 AM

Dodger is a Troll. Do not feed Trolls.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:41 AM

What Leadfingers said. dodger - pog mo thoin

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:54 AM

Do you also use toillet paper to clean your mouth dear Bryn Pugh ,Is that an English name . eat the rich? with love.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:57 AM

Dear GUEST,Ralphie you have such a lot to say is it to much for you ?

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:04 AM

Is there any bright sparks out there or has the lights gone out? the devil a care.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM

Dodger,

Several people have given you perfectly valid and reasonable answers to your question. Obviously they are not the answer you are seeking. That's just too bad. Perhaps you could tell us the answer you are seeking? We will then either agree with it or tell you why we think it is wrong. Have you tried asking on the eCeilidh list?

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:27 AM

Dodger is a troll. Please stop feeding him. "The Devil a care" indeed.
Goodbye Troll. Take your pointless comments elsewhere.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Gedi
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM

All I can say is, thank God there are no smileys on Mudcat : )

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 09:13 AM

Do you believe in God, Dodger?

(Can't have the poor Trolls going hungry at this time of year, can we?)

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,dodger
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 09:54 AM

If you read my comments dear Suibhne O'Piobaireachd, there you will find the answer, are you irish you have a lovely name. Éirinn go Brách

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:13 AM

I was born on Planet Earth to human parents; the name is not my own, nor anyone else's. Now answer my question.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:29 AM

No, dear Suibhne O'Piobaireachd,no i do not belief in God but i have already said so?

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:45 AM

But i do agree English Traditional music is the Traditional music of these Isles, i couldent see it before.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 11:23 AM

All music is traditional, Dodger - all music played in England is, therefore, English Traditional Music. I don't think music has those sorts of frontiers & border check-points that you seem to be hinting at here. Music is like clouds in this respect - it floats around - so you get all sorts of things happening in all sorts of ways. Drum & Bass is very English, very Traditional.

Like I say - choose your genre and be glad.

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 11:44 AM

we know where the celtic trad came

Do we? I don't. Please enlighten us. Is it from such collections that include such celtic traditiopns as 'Dirty old town' and 'Green fields of France'. Or maybe '40 shades of green'?

As to 'There was a celtic tradition before the English came here. Was there? Seeing as most of what we know of teh Celts was from Roman historians or made up by Vivtotian fantacists can we be sure of that? Besides - Who was here before the Celts invadrD?

DeG

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:21 PM

"Like I say - choose your genre and be glad."

Never! I eschew the evil of genres and laugh in the face of pigeon holes (er . . .)

Methinks owd Dodge is having a reet wind-up here!

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:46 PM

Do you belief in God dear Suibhne O'Piobaireachd and are you a Trool

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM

Why dont you enlighten us David el Gnomo are you an historian, do you belief in GOd . the devil a care

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:09 PM

Do you belief in God dear Suibhne O'Piobaireachd and are you a Trool

i) God comes into being through multiplicity of religious faiths as invented by humanity, for good & ill...

ii) Am I a Trool? I'm not altogether sure what a Trool is - maybe I am, maybe I'm not. Perhaps you'd best explain, Dear Dodger...

Subject: RE: English trad
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:17 PM

Sorry i meant Troll and what is God? i dont think Sugarfoot Jack agrees with you

Subject: RE: English trad
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM

Oi dodger, do you clean your arse with toilet paper ? or do you just make facetious comments when you can't say anything intelligent, or is the question too difficult ?

Dave H

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OK, that's enough. Thread closed.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-