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BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Paul Burke 30 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM
Bill D 30 Nov 09 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Lox 30 Nov 09 - 06:28 PM
gnu 30 Nov 09 - 06:57 PM
JohnInKansas 30 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM
Stringsinger 30 Nov 09 - 07:22 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 30 Nov 09 - 07:25 PM
olddude 30 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM
artbrooks 30 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 30 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM
Ed T 30 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM
Ed T 30 Nov 09 - 08:27 PM
katlaughing 30 Nov 09 - 10:24 PM
Alice 30 Nov 09 - 11:06 PM
Smedley 01 Dec 09 - 03:18 AM
theleveller 01 Dec 09 - 03:27 AM
akenaton 01 Dec 09 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Lox 01 Dec 09 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 09 - 04:37 AM
Bryn Pugh 01 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Dec 09 - 05:35 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 09 - 05:40 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 01 Dec 09 - 06:07 AM
theleveller 01 Dec 09 - 06:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Dec 09 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 01 Dec 09 - 07:30 AM
treewind 01 Dec 09 - 07:41 AM
KEVINOAF 01 Dec 09 - 08:24 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM
Wolfgang 01 Dec 09 - 08:41 AM
goatfell 01 Dec 09 - 09:08 AM
Wolfgang 01 Dec 09 - 09:19 AM
Alice 01 Dec 09 - 10:45 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Dec 09 - 10:51 AM
Ebbie 01 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM
Alice 01 Dec 09 - 12:42 PM
olddude 01 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Dec 09 - 02:00 PM
Tinker 01 Dec 09 - 02:01 PM
Paul Burke 01 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 09 - 02:40 PM
Bill D 01 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM
Donuel 01 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Lox 01 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM
Donuel 01 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM
Don Firth 01 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,999 01 Dec 09 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,Goose Gander 02 Dec 09 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,999 02 Dec 09 - 12:41 AM
GUEST,Goose Gander 02 Dec 09 - 12:57 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Dec 09 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Dec 09 - 03:37 AM
GUEST,Lox 02 Dec 09 - 04:48 AM
Penny S. 02 Dec 09 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 02 Dec 09 - 06:09 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Dec 09 - 06:15 AM
GUEST,Dodger 02 Dec 09 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,Dodger 02 Dec 09 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Dodger 02 Dec 09 - 08:38 AM
Donuel 02 Dec 09 - 10:26 AM
ToeRag 02 Dec 09 - 11:09 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Dec 09 - 11:26 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Dec 09 - 12:18 PM
Donuel 02 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM
ToeRag 02 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM
Bill D 02 Dec 09 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 02 Dec 09 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM
Backwoodsman 02 Dec 09 - 03:10 PM
Ebbie 02 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM
Penny S. 02 Dec 09 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 03 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM
Joe Offer 03 Dec 09 - 05:23 AM
ToeRag 03 Dec 09 - 07:01 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 09 - 07:05 AM
ToeRag 03 Dec 09 - 07:19 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 09 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 03 Dec 09 - 08:08 AM
ToeRag 03 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM
olddude 03 Dec 09 - 10:12 AM
Penny S. 03 Dec 09 - 12:47 PM
ToeRag 03 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM
mauvepink 03 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM
ToeRag 03 Dec 09 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,astro 03 Dec 09 - 03:39 PM
olddude 03 Dec 09 - 03:40 PM
olddude 03 Dec 09 - 03:51 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM
Lox 03 Dec 09 - 04:06 PM
Paul Burke 03 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM
ToeRag 03 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM
Lox 03 Dec 09 - 04:50 PM
akenaton 03 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM
Lox 03 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM
akenaton 03 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM
Lox 03 Dec 09 - 05:45 PM
Lox 03 Dec 09 - 06:01 PM
Lox 03 Dec 09 - 06:19 PM
Lox 03 Dec 09 - 06:31 PM
akenaton 03 Dec 09 - 07:04 PM
akenaton 03 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM
Bill D 03 Dec 09 - 07:54 PM
akenaton 03 Dec 09 - 08:04 PM
mauvepink 03 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM
akenaton 03 Dec 09 - 08:29 PM
mauvepink 03 Dec 09 - 08:44 PM
Don Firth 03 Dec 09 - 09:14 PM
olddude 03 Dec 09 - 09:32 PM
Simon G 03 Dec 09 - 11:02 PM
Alice 03 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM
Alice 03 Dec 09 - 11:26 PM
Ebbie 03 Dec 09 - 11:58 PM
Alice 04 Dec 09 - 01:15 AM
Ebbie 04 Dec 09 - 01:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Dec 09 - 02:35 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Dec 09 - 03:24 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Dec 09 - 03:50 AM
Lox 04 Dec 09 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Dec 09 - 04:36 AM
Lox 04 Dec 09 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 04 Dec 09 - 05:21 AM
ToeRag 04 Dec 09 - 05:53 AM
Lox 04 Dec 09 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 04 Dec 09 - 08:39 AM
mauvepink 04 Dec 09 - 09:05 AM
Simon G 04 Dec 09 - 10:28 AM
ToeRag 04 Dec 09 - 10:33 AM
mauvepink 04 Dec 09 - 10:53 AM
Paul Burke 04 Dec 09 - 02:27 PM
Alice 04 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM
akenaton 04 Dec 09 - 03:24 PM
akenaton 04 Dec 09 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,maivepink 04 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM
akenaton 04 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM
Lox 04 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM
Lox 04 Dec 09 - 05:31 PM
Don Firth 04 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM
akenaton 04 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM
Don Firth 04 Dec 09 - 07:36 PM
Don Firth 04 Dec 09 - 11:53 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 03:33 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Dec 09 - 04:02 AM
Lox 05 Dec 09 - 05:06 AM
ToeRag 05 Dec 09 - 05:19 AM
Lox 05 Dec 09 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Dec 09 - 08:28 AM
ToeRag 05 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 05 Dec 09 - 08:56 AM
ToeRag 05 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 09 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 05 Dec 09 - 11:51 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Dec 09 - 12:03 PM
ToeRag 05 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 09 - 02:05 PM
frogprince 05 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM
mauvepink 05 Dec 09 - 02:19 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 02:56 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM
Lox 05 Dec 09 - 04:10 PM
Lox 05 Dec 09 - 04:17 PM
Lox 05 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 09 - 05:28 PM
mauvepink 05 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 05:46 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 09 - 05:55 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,999 05 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 07:11 PM
gnu 05 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM
GUEST,999 05 Dec 09 - 07:26 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 09 - 07:38 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 07:58 PM
gnu 05 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 09 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,999 05 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Dec 09 - 11:22 PM
frogprince 05 Dec 09 - 11:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Dec 09 - 12:32 AM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 12:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Dec 09 - 12:49 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Dec 09 - 01:42 AM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Dec 09 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Dec 09 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Dec 09 - 05:01 AM
mauvepink 06 Dec 09 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Dec 09 - 06:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Dec 09 - 09:10 AM
ToeRag 06 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM
Amos 06 Dec 09 - 11:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Dec 09 - 11:34 AM
ToeRag 06 Dec 09 - 11:54 AM
Lox 06 Dec 09 - 01:17 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 02:39 PM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 03:37 PM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 03:50 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM
Amos 06 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM
Lox 06 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM
Lox 06 Dec 09 - 04:15 PM
Lox 06 Dec 09 - 04:17 PM
mauvepink 06 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM
Paul Burke 06 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 05:03 PM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM
Lox 06 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM
Lox 06 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM
Little Hawk 06 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,999 06 Dec 09 - 06:36 PM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,999 06 Dec 09 - 06:48 PM
akenaton 06 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,999 06 Dec 09 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,999 06 Dec 09 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,999 06 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,999 06 Dec 09 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,999 06 Dec 09 - 07:25 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,hg 06 Dec 09 - 08:33 PM
Little Hawk 06 Dec 09 - 08:41 PM
Little Hawk 06 Dec 09 - 08:48 PM
Lox 06 Dec 09 - 09:23 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 10:33 PM
Little Hawk 06 Dec 09 - 10:54 PM
Don Firth 06 Dec 09 - 11:30 PM
Bill D 06 Dec 09 - 11:36 PM
Don Firth 07 Dec 09 - 12:31 AM
Smedley 07 Dec 09 - 02:18 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 07 Dec 09 - 03:05 AM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 03:36 AM
KEVINOAF 07 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Dec 09 - 05:24 AM
Smedley 07 Dec 09 - 05:47 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Dec 09 - 08:14 AM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 09:47 AM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 11:00 AM
Paco O'Barmy 07 Dec 09 - 11:06 AM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 11:14 AM
Paco O'Barmy 07 Dec 09 - 11:17 AM
Smedley 07 Dec 09 - 11:27 AM
theleveller 07 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM
Amos 07 Dec 09 - 11:42 AM
Bill D 07 Dec 09 - 11:43 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Dec 09 - 11:52 AM
mauvepink 07 Dec 09 - 11:56 AM
mauvepink 07 Dec 09 - 12:27 PM
Bill D 07 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 07 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Dec 09 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Dec 09 - 02:57 PM
theleveller 07 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Dec 09 - 03:18 PM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 07 Dec 09 - 03:56 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Dec 09 - 04:58 PM
mauvepink 07 Dec 09 - 05:02 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Dec 09 - 05:05 PM
Amos 07 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM
Little Hawk 07 Dec 09 - 05:08 PM
mauvepink 07 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Dec 09 - 05:26 PM
Little Hawk 07 Dec 09 - 05:26 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM
Ebbie 07 Dec 09 - 05:44 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,999 07 Dec 09 - 05:55 PM
Little Hawk 07 Dec 09 - 05:59 PM
Ebbie 07 Dec 09 - 06:00 PM
Don Firth 07 Dec 09 - 06:04 PM
Ebbie 07 Dec 09 - 06:04 PM
Don Firth 07 Dec 09 - 06:12 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 06:14 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 06:20 PM
TheSnail 07 Dec 09 - 06:35 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 06:37 PM
Amos 07 Dec 09 - 06:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM
mauvepink 07 Dec 09 - 06:53 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 06:54 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 07:04 PM
Don Firth 07 Dec 09 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,999 07 Dec 09 - 07:18 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 07:25 PM
mauvepink 07 Dec 09 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,999 07 Dec 09 - 07:31 PM
GUEST,999 07 Dec 09 - 07:34 PM
Amos 07 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,999 07 Dec 09 - 07:40 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 07:49 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Dec 09 - 07:53 PM
Amos 07 Dec 09 - 07:56 PM
gnu 07 Dec 09 - 07:58 PM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 08:04 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 08:19 PM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 08:21 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 08:24 PM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 08:25 PM
akenaton 07 Dec 09 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Dec 09 - 08:30 PM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 08:39 PM
Lox 07 Dec 09 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Dec 09 - 09:49 PM
GUEST,999 07 Dec 09 - 09:52 PM
Amos 07 Dec 09 - 10:15 PM
Little Hawk 07 Dec 09 - 11:20 PM
GUEST,TIA 07 Dec 09 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Dec 09 - 11:50 PM
GUEST,TIA 07 Dec 09 - 11:54 PM
GUEST,TIA 08 Dec 09 - 12:13 AM
GUEST,TIA 08 Dec 09 - 12:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM
Smedley 08 Dec 09 - 05:41 AM
Don Firth 08 Dec 09 - 02:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Dec 09 - 02:49 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 09 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Dec 09 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,999 08 Dec 09 - 06:20 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM
Ebbie 08 Dec 09 - 07:58 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 09 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,999 08 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM
Jeri 08 Dec 09 - 10:08 PM
frogprince 08 Dec 09 - 10:08 PM
GUEST,999 08 Dec 09 - 10:10 PM
GUEST,999 08 Dec 09 - 10:11 PM
Jeri 08 Dec 09 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,999 08 Dec 09 - 10:21 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Dec 09 - 10:27 PM
Amos 08 Dec 09 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Dec 09 - 11:04 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Dec 09 - 11:14 PM
Ebbie 08 Dec 09 - 11:46 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 09 - 11:49 PM
Amos 08 Dec 09 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Dec 09 - 12:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Dec 09 - 01:04 AM
Smedley 09 Dec 09 - 01:57 AM
Lox 09 Dec 09 - 04:34 AM
Lox 09 Dec 09 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 09 Dec 09 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Dec 09 - 05:20 AM
Jeri 09 Dec 09 - 12:05 PM
Don Firth 09 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Dec 09 - 02:49 PM
Lox 09 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM
Ed T 09 Dec 09 - 07:29 PM
akenaton 09 Dec 09 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,999 09 Dec 09 - 09:17 PM
akenaton 09 Dec 09 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,999 09 Dec 09 - 09:31 PM
Amos 09 Dec 09 - 11:08 PM
Don Firth 09 Dec 09 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Dec 09 - 11:37 PM
Don Firth 10 Dec 09 - 12:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Dec 09 - 01:48 AM
Smedley 10 Dec 09 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Dec 09 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 10 Dec 09 - 08:54 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Dec 09 - 09:36 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 09 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 10 Dec 09 - 10:01 AM
akenaton 10 Dec 09 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 09 - 12:02 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 09 - 12:09 PM
Amos 10 Dec 09 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Dec 09 - 01:29 PM
Lox 10 Dec 09 - 02:08 PM
Lox 10 Dec 09 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 10 Dec 09 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Dec 09 - 02:31 PM
frogprince 10 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM
Don Firth 10 Dec 09 - 03:07 PM
gnu 10 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM
Amos 10 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM
Lox 10 Dec 09 - 03:25 PM
Don Firth 10 Dec 09 - 03:48 PM
akenaton 10 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Dec 09 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,999 10 Dec 09 - 09:28 PM
Amos 10 Dec 09 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,TIA 10 Dec 09 - 11:55 PM
Ebbie 11 Dec 09 - 12:11 AM
Donuel 11 Dec 09 - 12:18 AM
Peace 11 Dec 09 - 12:30 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Dec 09 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 11 Dec 09 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 09 - 04:16 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Dec 09 - 05:56 AM
GUEST,TIA 11 Dec 09 - 07:58 AM
Bobert 11 Dec 09 - 08:29 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Dec 09 - 10:06 AM
Paco O'Barmy 11 Dec 09 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Dec 09 - 03:03 PM
gnu 11 Dec 09 - 03:14 PM
Paco O'Barmy 11 Dec 09 - 03:15 PM
frogprince 11 Dec 09 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM
Lox 11 Dec 09 - 04:10 PM
akenaton 11 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 09 - 04:38 PM
Smedley 11 Dec 09 - 04:56 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Dec 09 - 05:05 PM
akenaton 11 Dec 09 - 05:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM
Smedley 11 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM
akenaton 11 Dec 09 - 05:56 PM
Amos 11 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 09 - 09:11 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Dec 09 - 11:04 PM
Amos 11 Dec 09 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Dec 09 - 11:38 PM
Don Firth 12 Dec 09 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Dec 09 - 04:01 AM
Lox 12 Dec 09 - 05:35 AM
Lox 12 Dec 09 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 12 Dec 09 - 08:04 AM
frogprince 12 Dec 09 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 09 - 10:14 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 09 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Dec 09 - 12:50 PM
gnu 12 Dec 09 - 01:15 PM
Don Firth 12 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM
Don Firth 12 Dec 09 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Dec 09 - 03:10 PM
Amos 12 Dec 09 - 03:15 PM
Don Firth 12 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 13 Dec 09 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 09 - 09:54 AM
kendall 13 Dec 09 - 01:48 PM
gnu 13 Dec 09 - 02:58 PM
akenaton 13 Dec 09 - 04:11 PM
gnu 13 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM
gnu 13 Dec 09 - 04:33 PM
Lox 13 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM
Wesley S 13 Dec 09 - 07:12 PM
akenaton 13 Dec 09 - 07:24 PM
Don Firth 13 Dec 09 - 08:30 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Dec 09 - 08:39 PM
Don Firth 13 Dec 09 - 08:55 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Dec 09 - 09:37 PM
Don Firth 13 Dec 09 - 10:40 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Dec 09 - 02:41 AM
Amos 14 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Dec 09 - 02:25 PM
Lox 14 Dec 09 - 02:37 PM
Wesley S 14 Dec 09 - 04:11 PM
Amos 14 Dec 09 - 04:37 PM
Wesley S 14 Dec 09 - 04:42 PM
gnu 14 Dec 09 - 05:30 PM
Bill D 15 Dec 09 - 02:12 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 15 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM
Lox 15 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Dec 09 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Elspeth Hart 15 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM
Amos 15 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 15 Dec 09 - 05:47 PM
gnu 15 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM
akenaton 15 Dec 09 - 06:46 PM
Amos 15 Dec 09 - 06:53 PM
fundi3891 15 Dec 09 - 07:13 PM
Bill D 15 Dec 09 - 07:41 PM
akenaton 15 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM
Ebbie 15 Dec 09 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Dec 09 - 10:07 PM
Bill D 15 Dec 09 - 10:55 PM
akenaton 16 Dec 09 - 03:53 AM
Lox 16 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM
Lox 16 Dec 09 - 05:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 09 - 10:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 09 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 16 Dec 09 - 11:15 AM
Ebbie 16 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM
Don Firth 16 Dec 09 - 12:54 PM
Bill D 16 Dec 09 - 01:58 PM
Donuel 16 Dec 09 - 02:09 PM
Don Firth 16 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM
akenaton 16 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM
Ebbie 16 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM
Don Firth 16 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM
Don Firth 16 Dec 09 - 05:15 PM
Amos 16 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM
Jeri 16 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM
Bill D 16 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM
akenaton 16 Dec 09 - 06:28 PM
TIA 16 Dec 09 - 06:54 PM
akenaton 16 Dec 09 - 07:19 PM
Don Firth 16 Dec 09 - 07:24 PM
Don Firth 16 Dec 09 - 07:27 PM
Bill D 16 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM
Amos 16 Dec 09 - 08:29 PM
Ebbie 16 Dec 09 - 10:08 PM
GUEST,TIA 16 Dec 09 - 11:24 PM
Amos 16 Dec 09 - 11:32 PM
Don Firth 16 Dec 09 - 11:33 PM
akenaton 17 Dec 09 - 03:36 AM
akenaton 17 Dec 09 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 09 - 05:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM
Bill D 17 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM
akenaton 17 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM
Don Firth 17 Dec 09 - 05:52 PM
Don Firth 17 Dec 09 - 06:00 PM
Ebbie 17 Dec 09 - 06:04 PM
akenaton 17 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM
Lox 17 Dec 09 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,TIA (of the feel good sisterhood!) 17 Dec 09 - 09:06 PM
Don Firth 17 Dec 09 - 09:26 PM
Lox 17 Dec 09 - 09:37 PM
Lox 17 Dec 09 - 09:51 PM
Amos 17 Dec 09 - 11:48 PM
Ebbie 18 Dec 09 - 12:23 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 18 Dec 09 - 08:36 AM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 12:06 PM
Lox 18 Dec 09 - 12:13 PM
Don Firth 18 Dec 09 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,TIA 18 Dec 09 - 02:36 PM
Bill D 18 Dec 09 - 02:45 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 04:41 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM
Jeri 18 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM
Ebbie 18 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM
Don Firth 18 Dec 09 - 05:13 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,TIA 18 Dec 09 - 05:14 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 05:23 PM
Bill D 18 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,TIA 18 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,TIA 18 Dec 09 - 05:38 PM
Jeri 18 Dec 09 - 05:52 PM
Don Firth 18 Dec 09 - 05:56 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 06:14 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 06:16 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 06:24 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 09 - 06:42 PM
gnu 18 Dec 09 - 06:43 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 09 - 06:55 PM
Don Firth 18 Dec 09 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Joybringer 18 Dec 09 - 08:58 PM
Don Firth 18 Dec 09 - 10:08 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Dec 09 - 07:36 AM
TIA 19 Dec 09 - 07:47 AM
akenaton 19 Dec 09 - 08:45 AM
akenaton 19 Dec 09 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 09 - 04:11 PM
Lox 19 Dec 09 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM
akenaton 19 Dec 09 - 05:27 PM
Lox 19 Dec 09 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 09 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 09 - 07:16 PM
Don Firth 19 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 09 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 09 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 09 - 08:28 PM
Amos 19 Dec 09 - 11:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 09 - 04:27 AM
akenaton 20 Dec 09 - 07:13 AM
Lox 20 Dec 09 - 07:16 AM
Lox 20 Dec 09 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Elspeth 20 Dec 09 - 07:47 AM
akenaton 20 Dec 09 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Elspeth 20 Dec 09 - 07:57 AM
akenaton 20 Dec 09 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM
GUEST 20 Dec 09 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Elspeth 20 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Dec 09 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,Elspeth 20 Dec 09 - 10:42 AM
Bill D 20 Dec 09 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Dec 09 - 11:20 AM
Amos 20 Dec 09 - 11:35 AM
Ebbie 20 Dec 09 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Dec 09 - 11:51 AM
Lox 20 Dec 09 - 12:11 PM
akenaton 20 Dec 09 - 03:50 PM
Elspeth 20 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM
Bill D 20 Dec 09 - 04:17 PM
akenaton 20 Dec 09 - 04:23 PM
Elspeth 20 Dec 09 - 04:33 PM
akenaton 20 Dec 09 - 04:55 PM
akenaton 20 Dec 09 - 05:06 PM
Don Firth 20 Dec 09 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 09 - 05:35 PM
Elspeth 20 Dec 09 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM
Elspeth 20 Dec 09 - 06:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Dec 09 - 06:27 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Dec 09 - 06:59 PM
Don Firth 20 Dec 09 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 09 - 10:13 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 09 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 09 - 02:47 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Dec 09 - 03:31 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 09 - 03:56 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Dec 09 - 04:47 PM
akenaton 21 Dec 09 - 04:49 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 09 - 05:37 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Dec 09 - 05:53 PM
Ebbie 21 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Dec 09 - 06:07 PM
Elspeth 21 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,999 21 Dec 09 - 07:51 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 09 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,999 21 Dec 09 - 08:28 PM
curmudgeon 21 Dec 09 - 08:36 PM
Elspeth 21 Dec 09 - 08:38 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 09 - 08:48 PM
Joe Offer 21 Dec 09 - 08:57 PM
Lox 21 Dec 09 - 09:24 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 09 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Dec 09 - 02:30 AM
Smedley 22 Dec 09 - 04:33 AM
Lox 22 Dec 09 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 22 Dec 09 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 22 Dec 09 - 10:40 AM
Elspeth 22 Dec 09 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 22 Dec 09 - 11:12 AM
Ebbie 22 Dec 09 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Steamin' WIllie 22 Dec 09 - 12:33 PM
Don Firth 22 Dec 09 - 12:46 PM
Smedley 22 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 22 Dec 09 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 22 Dec 09 - 04:56 PM
Lox 22 Dec 09 - 05:22 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 09 - 05:41 PM
Smedley 22 Dec 09 - 05:46 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 09 - 06:01 PM
Smedley 22 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM
Lox 22 Dec 09 - 06:10 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM
Smedley 22 Dec 09 - 06:25 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM
Lox 22 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM
Don Firth 22 Dec 09 - 07:56 PM
Lox 22 Dec 09 - 07:59 PM
Lox 22 Dec 09 - 08:06 PM
mauvepink 23 Dec 09 - 04:06 AM
akenaton 23 Dec 09 - 12:55 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 09 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 09 - 07:38 PM
Lox 23 Dec 09 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 09 - 10:10 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 09 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 09 - 10:52 PM
Elspeth 23 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 09 - 11:44 PM
Don Firth 24 Dec 09 - 01:03 AM
Lox 24 Dec 09 - 05:43 AM
Smedley 24 Dec 09 - 06:30 AM
Elspeth 24 Dec 09 - 07:33 AM
Elspeth 24 Dec 09 - 07:41 AM
Lox 24 Dec 09 - 09:01 AM
Elspeth 24 Dec 09 - 11:33 AM
akenaton 24 Dec 09 - 01:30 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 09 - 01:34 PM
Lox 24 Dec 09 - 01:46 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 09 - 02:07 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM
gnu 24 Dec 09 - 03:50 PM
Don Firth 24 Dec 09 - 04:18 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 09 - 04:54 PM
Lox 24 Dec 09 - 05:14 PM
Don Firth 24 Dec 09 - 05:18 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM
gnu 24 Dec 09 - 06:20 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 09 - 06:42 PM
gnu 24 Dec 09 - 06:59 PM
gnu 24 Dec 09 - 07:01 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 09 - 01:42 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Dec 09 - 02:14 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Dec 09 - 02:38 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Dec 09 - 03:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Dec 09 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Dec 09 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Dec 09 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 26 Dec 09 - 01:22 PM
Smedley 26 Dec 09 - 02:07 PM
akenaton 26 Dec 09 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting 26 Dec 09 - 04:43 PM
Smedley 26 Dec 09 - 05:38 PM
Don Firth 26 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM
Lox 26 Dec 09 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM
Lox 26 Dec 09 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 09 - 12:22 AM
Smedley 27 Dec 09 - 05:15 AM
akenaton 27 Dec 09 - 05:47 AM
Smedley 27 Dec 09 - 06:11 AM
Lox 27 Dec 09 - 07:34 AM
Lox 27 Dec 09 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 27 Dec 09 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM
Smedley 27 Dec 09 - 10:33 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Dec 09 - 11:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Dec 09 - 11:33 AM
Don Firth 27 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 09 - 03:21 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 09 - 03:26 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 27 Dec 09 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,999 27 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM
Lox 27 Dec 09 - 05:02 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,999--in the spirit of the season . . . . 27 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 09 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,999 27 Dec 09 - 07:10 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 09 - 08:03 PM
akenaton 27 Dec 09 - 09:14 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 09 - 09:45 PM
Wesley S 28 Dec 09 - 10:25 AM
Smedley 28 Dec 09 - 10:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Dec 09 - 07:07 PM
Lox 28 Dec 09 - 08:37 PM
Donuel 29 Dec 09 - 04:34 PM
Elspeth 29 Dec 09 - 07:19 PM
Elspeth 29 Dec 09 - 07:27 PM
Elspeth 29 Dec 09 - 07:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Dec 09 - 07:47 PM
Don Firth 29 Dec 09 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM
olddude 02 Jan 10 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Guiest from Sanity 02 Jan 10 - 06:21 PM
Amos 05 Jan 10 - 09:50 AM
Ebbie 05 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jan 10 - 11:47 PM
Joe Offer 07 Jan 10 - 02:51 AM
Smedley 07 Jan 10 - 03:26 AM
Lox 07 Jan 10 - 04:25 AM
Penny S. 07 Jan 10 - 05:34 AM
Don Firth 07 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 10 - 12:41 AM
Penny S. 08 Jan 10 - 04:58 AM
Smedley 08 Jan 10 - 05:04 AM
Penny S. 08 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM
Smedley 08 Jan 10 - 05:42 AM
Lox 08 Jan 10 - 06:04 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jan 10 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 10 - 07:04 AM
Lox 08 Jan 10 - 08:28 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jan 10 - 08:45 AM
Mr Happy 08 Jan 10 - 09:37 AM
akenaton 08 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Den 08 Jan 10 - 12:59 PM
Lox 08 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 10 - 06:08 AM
Penny S. 09 Jan 10 - 12:12 PM
Smedley 09 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM
akenaton 09 Jan 10 - 02:01 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 10 - 03:37 PM
M.Ted 09 Jan 10 - 03:52 PM
akenaton 09 Jan 10 - 05:20 PM
Amos 09 Jan 10 - 05:25 PM
akenaton 09 Jan 10 - 05:26 PM
Don Firth 09 Jan 10 - 05:42 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 10 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Jan 10 - 03:45 AM
mousethief 10 Jan 10 - 03:51 AM
akenaton 10 Jan 10 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Jan 10 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 10 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 10 - 06:36 AM
Lox 10 Jan 10 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 10 Jan 10 - 10:06 AM
Smedley 10 Jan 10 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 10 Jan 10 - 10:16 AM
akenaton 10 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM
akenaton 10 Jan 10 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 10 Jan 10 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 10 Jan 10 - 12:27 PM
Ebbie 10 Jan 10 - 12:30 PM
akenaton 10 Jan 10 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 10 - 01:11 PM
GUEST 10 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 10 Jan 10 - 01:30 PM
Don Firth 10 Jan 10 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM
Smedley 10 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM
Smedley 10 Jan 10 - 02:51 PM
Royston 10 Jan 10 - 02:54 PM
Don Firth 10 Jan 10 - 02:57 PM
Smedley 10 Jan 10 - 03:01 PM
Lox 10 Jan 10 - 03:04 PM
akenaton 10 Jan 10 - 03:12 PM
Don Firth 10 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM
akenaton 10 Jan 10 - 03:45 PM
Royston 10 Jan 10 - 04:24 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 10 - 05:54 PM
Lox 10 Jan 10 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Jan 10 - 06:44 PM
Lox 10 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM
Lox 10 Jan 10 - 07:14 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 10 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 12:05 AM
Royston 11 Jan 10 - 02:49 AM
akenaton 11 Jan 10 - 03:15 AM
akenaton 11 Jan 10 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 03:38 AM
akenaton 11 Jan 10 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 03:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 10 - 04:22 AM
Jim McLean 11 Jan 10 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 10 - 05:30 AM
Smedley 11 Jan 10 - 05:37 AM
Lox 11 Jan 10 - 10:09 AM
Mr Happy 11 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 11 Jan 10 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 12:00 PM
akenaton 11 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM
akenaton 11 Jan 10 - 12:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 10 - 12:27 PM
Royston 11 Jan 10 - 12:33 PM
Smedley 11 Jan 10 - 12:36 PM
Royston 11 Jan 10 - 01:03 PM
akenaton 11 Jan 10 - 01:14 PM
Royston 11 Jan 10 - 01:20 PM
akenaton 11 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM
Royston 11 Jan 10 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 11 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM
mauvepink 11 Jan 10 - 02:20 PM
Smedley 11 Jan 10 - 02:23 PM
akenaton 11 Jan 10 - 02:56 PM
Don Firth 11 Jan 10 - 03:02 PM
Amos 11 Jan 10 - 04:05 PM
Lox 11 Jan 10 - 04:10 PM
Lox 11 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM
Lox 11 Jan 10 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 04:32 PM
Ebbie 11 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM
Smedley 11 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM
mauvepink 11 Jan 10 - 06:26 PM
Don Firth 11 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM
mousethief 11 Jan 10 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 10 - 11:46 PM
mousethief 11 Jan 10 - 11:51 PM
Don Firth 12 Jan 10 - 01:06 AM
Ebbie 12 Jan 10 - 02:33 AM
Royston 12 Jan 10 - 03:58 AM
Royston 12 Jan 10 - 04:10 AM
Smedley 12 Jan 10 - 04:20 AM
mauvepink 12 Jan 10 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 10 - 12:17 PM
Ebbie 12 Jan 10 - 12:57 PM
Don Firth 12 Jan 10 - 02:18 PM
Smedley 12 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM
Don Firth 12 Jan 10 - 03:52 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 03:59 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 04:20 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 04:29 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 04:39 PM
Don Firth 12 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 04:49 PM
gnu 12 Jan 10 - 04:57 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 05:13 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 05:23 PM
Smedley 12 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 05:31 PM
gnu 12 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 06:06 PM
Smedley 12 Jan 10 - 06:13 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 06:20 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 06:21 PM
Smedley 12 Jan 10 - 06:22 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 06:23 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 06:29 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 10 - 06:39 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 06:57 PM
Lox 12 Jan 10 - 06:58 PM
mauvepink 12 Jan 10 - 07:46 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,TIA 12 Jan 10 - 10:25 PM
Ebbie 12 Jan 10 - 11:08 PM
Smedley 13 Jan 10 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 10 - 03:49 AM
Smedley 13 Jan 10 - 03:54 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jan 10 - 10:35 AM
Don Firth 13 Jan 10 - 02:13 PM
akenaton 13 Jan 10 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 10 - 03:17 PM
Lox 13 Jan 10 - 03:27 PM
gnu 13 Jan 10 - 03:56 PM
akenaton 13 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,Charlotte-Anne Wells 13 Jan 10 - 06:06 PM
Lox 13 Jan 10 - 07:43 PM
Ebbie 13 Jan 10 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 10 - 11:05 PM
mousethief 13 Jan 10 - 11:33 PM
GUEST,999 13 Jan 10 - 11:47 PM
GUEST,999 13 Jan 10 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 10 - 11:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jan 10 - 11:58 PM
GUEST,999 14 Jan 10 - 12:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jan 10 - 12:19 AM
Don Firth 14 Jan 10 - 12:54 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jan 10 - 01:28 AM
mousethief 14 Jan 10 - 01:40 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jan 10 - 01:47 AM
Smedley 14 Jan 10 - 03:50 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jan 10 - 03:56 AM
Smedley 14 Jan 10 - 04:25 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jan 10 - 05:36 AM
Smedley 14 Jan 10 - 06:03 AM
Royston 14 Jan 10 - 06:05 AM
Royston 14 Jan 10 - 06:21 AM
Smedley 14 Jan 10 - 08:53 AM
Smedley 14 Jan 10 - 09:26 AM
Lox 14 Jan 10 - 04:03 PM
akenaton 14 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM
Smedley 14 Jan 10 - 05:55 PM
Don Firth 14 Jan 10 - 06:03 PM
akenaton 14 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM
Royston 14 Jan 10 - 06:53 PM
Smedley 14 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM
Lox 14 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jan 10 - 07:19 PM
Don Firth 14 Jan 10 - 07:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jan 10 - 07:32 PM
mousethief 14 Jan 10 - 07:59 PM
frogprince 14 Jan 10 - 08:01 PM
mauvepink 14 Jan 10 - 08:09 PM
mauvepink 14 Jan 10 - 08:15 PM
Smedley 15 Jan 10 - 02:36 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 10 - 02:38 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 10 - 02:41 PM
Paul Burke 16 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM
Lox 16 Jan 10 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 16 Jan 10 - 08:44 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jan 10 - 08:49 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jan 10 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 16 Jan 10 - 09:19 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jan 10 - 09:48 AM
akenaton 16 Jan 10 - 10:22 AM
Paul Burke 16 Jan 10 - 10:39 AM
akenaton 16 Jan 10 - 10:42 AM
akenaton 16 Jan 10 - 10:45 AM
akenaton 16 Jan 10 - 10:47 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jan 10 - 10:50 AM
Smedley 16 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM
Lox 16 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM
Donuel 16 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM
Don Firth 16 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM
Amos 16 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM
akenaton 16 Jan 10 - 05:26 PM
Don Firth 16 Jan 10 - 08:47 PM
mousethief 17 Jan 10 - 01:38 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Jan 10 - 12:04 PM
Smedley 17 Jan 10 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 17 Jan 10 - 03:25 PM
akenaton 17 Jan 10 - 03:42 PM
Lox 17 Jan 10 - 04:42 PM
Lox 17 Jan 10 - 04:44 PM
Don Firth 17 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM
Smedley 17 Jan 10 - 05:14 PM
Paul Burke 17 Jan 10 - 07:32 PM
Don Firth 17 Jan 10 - 07:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jan 10 - 07:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jan 10 - 07:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jan 10 - 07:46 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jan 10 - 07:48 PM
mousethief 17 Jan 10 - 08:09 PM
mousethief 17 Jan 10 - 08:25 PM
mousethief 17 Jan 10 - 10:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Jan 10 - 12:49 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jan 10 - 01:06 AM
mousethief 18 Jan 10 - 01:13 AM
Don Firth 18 Jan 10 - 01:54 AM
Don Firth 18 Jan 10 - 01:56 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jan 10 - 03:37 AM
akenaton 18 Jan 10 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 18 Jan 10 - 11:52 AM
Ebbie 18 Jan 10 - 12:11 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 10 - 12:14 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 10 - 12:22 PM
Amos 18 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM
mousethief 18 Jan 10 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 18 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM
Lox 18 Jan 10 - 12:56 PM
Ebbie 18 Jan 10 - 01:27 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 10 - 03:59 PM
Don Firth 18 Jan 10 - 04:40 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM
Don Firth 18 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM
Royston 18 Jan 10 - 06:29 PM
Lox 18 Jan 10 - 06:32 PM
Amos 18 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM
Don Firth 18 Jan 10 - 07:32 PM
Amos 18 Jan 10 - 08:35 PM
Smedley 19 Jan 10 - 03:19 AM
akenaton 19 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM
akenaton 19 Jan 10 - 11:19 AM
Royston 19 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM
Lox 19 Jan 10 - 03:48 PM
akenaton 19 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM
Lox 19 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM
mousethief 19 Jan 10 - 05:43 PM
Royston 19 Jan 10 - 05:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM
mousethief 19 Jan 10 - 09:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 10 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 10 - 04:52 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Jan 10 - 05:31 AM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 05:50 AM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Jan 10 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Jan 10 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Lox 20 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 10 - 09:47 AM
Lox 20 Jan 10 - 09:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 10 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Jan 10 - 09:53 AM
Lox 20 Jan 10 - 09:55 AM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Jan 10 - 12:40 PM
Ebbie 20 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM
Lox 20 Jan 10 - 01:00 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Jan 10 - 01:55 PM
Don Firth 20 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 10 - 02:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 10 - 02:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 10 - 02:47 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM
Lox 20 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM
Don Firth 20 Jan 10 - 04:02 PM
Donuel 20 Jan 10 - 04:25 PM
Royston 20 Jan 10 - 04:25 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 05:05 PM
Don Firth 20 Jan 10 - 05:16 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 05:16 PM
Don Firth 20 Jan 10 - 05:22 PM
mousethief 20 Jan 10 - 05:34 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 05:38 PM
mousethief 20 Jan 10 - 05:44 PM
Amos 20 Jan 10 - 05:46 PM
Ebbie 20 Jan 10 - 05:48 PM
Royston 20 Jan 10 - 05:48 PM
Donuel 20 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 06:26 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 06:32 PM
Donuel 20 Jan 10 - 06:35 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 06:46 PM
Ebbie 20 Jan 10 - 07:08 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 07:21 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 07:33 PM
Don Firth 20 Jan 10 - 07:48 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Jan 10 - 08:03 PM
Don Firth 20 Jan 10 - 08:05 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 08:12 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 10 - 08:25 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Jan 10 - 08:25 PM
GUEST 20 Jan 10 - 08:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 10 - 03:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 10 - 03:24 AM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 04:51 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 05:20 AM
Donuel 21 Jan 10 - 06:36 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jan 10 - 06:39 AM
Royston 21 Jan 10 - 08:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM
mauvepink 21 Jan 10 - 12:10 PM
Paco O'Barmy 21 Jan 10 - 12:16 PM
mauvepink 21 Jan 10 - 12:19 PM
mauvepink 21 Jan 10 - 12:27 PM
Paco O'Barmy 21 Jan 10 - 12:29 PM
mauvepink 21 Jan 10 - 12:45 PM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 12:46 PM
Amos 21 Jan 10 - 12:49 PM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 01:22 PM
mousethief 21 Jan 10 - 01:39 PM
Lox 21 Jan 10 - 01:42 PM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 01:42 PM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 01:59 PM
mousethief 21 Jan 10 - 02:05 PM
Amos 21 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM
mauvepink 21 Jan 10 - 02:32 PM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM
mauvepink 21 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM
mauvepink 21 Jan 10 - 03:16 PM
Lox 21 Jan 10 - 03:16 PM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 03:17 PM
Amos 21 Jan 10 - 03:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jan 10 - 03:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM
akenaton 21 Jan 10 - 03:52 PM
Don Firth 21 Jan 10 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jan 10 - 11:27 PM
Ebbie 21 Jan 10 - 11:36 PM
GUEST,TIA 21 Jan 10 - 11:40 PM
Ebbie 22 Jan 10 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Jan 10 - 01:10 AM
Amos 22 Jan 10 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Jan 10 - 02:37 AM
Royston 22 Jan 10 - 03:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 04:11 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 06:11 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 06:47 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 06:58 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 07:19 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 07:27 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 07:44 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 07:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 08:15 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Jan 10 - 08:23 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 08:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 08:47 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 08:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 09:03 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 09:04 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 09:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 09:21 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 09:47 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 09:48 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 09:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jan 10 - 09:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 09:57 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 09:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 10:01 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 10:17 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 10:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jan 10 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 11:21 AM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 11:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 11:56 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM
Ebbie 22 Jan 10 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Jan 10 - 01:17 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jan 10 - 01:26 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 01:28 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 01:53 PM
Royston 22 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM
Royston 22 Jan 10 - 02:37 PM
Smedley 22 Jan 10 - 03:08 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 03:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM
Paco O'Barmy 22 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jan 10 - 04:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM
Royston 22 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM
Royston 22 Jan 10 - 04:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 22 Jan 10 - 04:42 PM
Paco O'Barmy 22 Jan 10 - 04:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM
Paco O'Barmy 22 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 04:59 PM
Royston 22 Jan 10 - 05:11 PM
Ebbie 22 Jan 10 - 05:13 PM
Smedley 22 Jan 10 - 05:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 05:53 PM
Royston 22 Jan 10 - 06:05 PM
mousethief 22 Jan 10 - 06:07 PM
Don Firth 22 Jan 10 - 06:46 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 06:51 PM
Lox 22 Jan 10 - 06:57 PM
akenaton 22 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 10 - 03:30 AM
Royston 23 Jan 10 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 10 - 06:22 AM
Royston 23 Jan 10 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Lox 23 Jan 10 - 10:10 AM
Donuel 23 Jan 10 - 10:16 AM
Smedley 23 Jan 10 - 10:21 AM
Royston 23 Jan 10 - 11:04 AM
Smedley 23 Jan 10 - 12:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM
Smedley 23 Jan 10 - 01:56 PM
Royston 23 Jan 10 - 02:10 PM
mousethief 23 Jan 10 - 02:35 PM
Royston 23 Jan 10 - 02:56 PM
mousethief 23 Jan 10 - 03:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 10 - 03:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 10 - 03:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jan 10 - 03:30 PM
akenaton 23 Jan 10 - 04:39 PM
Ebbie 23 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM
akenaton 23 Jan 10 - 04:50 PM
akenaton 23 Jan 10 - 04:53 PM
Ebbie 23 Jan 10 - 06:02 PM
Lox 23 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM
Don Firth 23 Jan 10 - 06:14 PM
akenaton 23 Jan 10 - 06:45 PM
Don Firth 23 Jan 10 - 08:00 PM
Lox 23 Jan 10 - 08:47 PM
Wesley S 23 Jan 10 - 08:59 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Jan 10 - 09:31 PM
mousethief 23 Jan 10 - 11:13 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jan 10 - 12:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 10 - 02:16 AM
Smedley 24 Jan 10 - 04:42 AM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 06:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 10 - 07:20 AM
Lox 24 Jan 10 - 08:06 AM
Lox 24 Jan 10 - 08:21 AM
Lox 24 Jan 10 - 08:25 AM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 08:27 AM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 08:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Jan 10 - 10:22 AM
akenaton 24 Jan 10 - 10:38 AM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 10:46 AM
akenaton 24 Jan 10 - 10:59 AM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 11:21 AM
Don Firth 24 Jan 10 - 02:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 10 - 02:29 PM
akenaton 24 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM
gnu 24 Jan 10 - 03:16 PM
akenaton 24 Jan 10 - 03:28 PM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 03:34 PM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 04:39 PM
Lox 24 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM
akenaton 24 Jan 10 - 05:14 PM
mousethief 24 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM
akenaton 24 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM
akenaton 24 Jan 10 - 05:25 PM
Ebbie 24 Jan 10 - 05:30 PM
mousethief 24 Jan 10 - 05:38 PM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 05:44 PM
Royston 24 Jan 10 - 05:50 PM
Lox 24 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM
mousethief 24 Jan 10 - 07:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 08:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 10:13 AM
Royston 25 Jan 10 - 11:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 11:49 AM
Ebbie 25 Jan 10 - 12:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 01:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 01:30 PM
Royston 25 Jan 10 - 01:36 PM
Amos 25 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM
Royston 25 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jan 10 - 02:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 02:44 PM
mousethief 25 Jan 10 - 03:06 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM
Royston 25 Jan 10 - 03:32 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 03:42 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 10 - 03:45 PM
Royston 25 Jan 10 - 03:56 PM
Royston 25 Jan 10 - 03:59 PM
Lox 25 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 10 - 04:26 PM
Lox 25 Jan 10 - 04:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 04:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM
Lox 25 Jan 10 - 04:59 PM
mousethief 25 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jan 10 - 05:20 PM
Lox 25 Jan 10 - 05:22 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 10 - 05:27 PM
Lox 25 Jan 10 - 05:28 PM
Lox 25 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM
Lox 25 Jan 10 - 05:46 PM
Don Firth 25 Jan 10 - 06:17 PM
mousethief 25 Jan 10 - 07:23 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM
mousethief 25 Jan 10 - 08:04 PM
akenaton 25 Jan 10 - 08:12 PM
mousethief 25 Jan 10 - 09:20 PM
Ebbie 25 Jan 10 - 10:08 PM
Don Firth 25 Jan 10 - 11:22 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 26 Jan 10 - 10:27 AM
akenaton 26 Jan 10 - 12:27 PM
Royston 26 Jan 10 - 01:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM
Royston 26 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 10 - 06:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jan 10 - 01:44 AM
Smedley 27 Jan 10 - 02:23 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jan 10 - 02:50 AM
Royston 27 Jan 10 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jan 10 - 08:09 AM
Royston 27 Jan 10 - 01:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jan 10 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jan 10 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jan 10 - 03:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jan 10 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jan 10 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jan 10 - 03:40 PM
Lox 27 Jan 10 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jan 10 - 04:16 PM
mousethief 27 Jan 10 - 04:36 PM
Royston 27 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM
akenaton 27 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM
akenaton 27 Jan 10 - 05:58 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Jan 10 - 07:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jan 10 - 07:38 PM
akenaton 27 Jan 10 - 07:52 PM
Lox 27 Jan 10 - 07:59 PM
Lox 27 Jan 10 - 08:22 PM
Don Firth 27 Jan 10 - 11:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 02:21 AM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 03:03 AM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 06:40 AM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 06:54 AM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 07:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 07:35 AM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 08:01 AM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 08:09 AM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 08:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 08:29 AM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 09:21 AM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 10:03 AM
Little Hawk 28 Jan 10 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 10:26 AM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 11:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 11:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 12:11 PM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 02:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 02:47 PM
akenaton 28 Jan 10 - 02:58 PM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 03:33 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 03:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 03:48 PM
akenaton 28 Jan 10 - 04:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jan 10 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 05:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 06:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 06:01 PM
Royston 28 Jan 10 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 06:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM
Don Firth 28 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 06:49 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 1400??? 28 Jan 10 - 07:04 PM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 07:10 PM
akenaton 28 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 07:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 07:33 PM
akenaton 28 Jan 10 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 07:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 07:39 PM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 07:44 PM
akenaton 28 Jan 10 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jan 10 - 07:49 PM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 07:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM
Smedley 28 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM
Don Firth 28 Jan 10 - 08:24 PM
akenaton 28 Jan 10 - 08:34 PM
Don Firth 28 Jan 10 - 09:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 02:02 AM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:16 AM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:19 AM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 03:07 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jan 10 - 03:19 AM
Lox 29 Jan 10 - 03:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 03:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 29 Jan 10 - 06:42 AM
Lox 29 Jan 10 - 07:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 07:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 07:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 08:07 AM
Lox 29 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 08:58 AM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 10:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 11:26 AM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 12:52 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 12:59 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM
Lox 29 Jan 10 - 01:26 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 01:34 PM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM
Lox 29 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM
Lox 29 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 01:45 PM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 01:56 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:08 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM
Lox 29 Jan 10 - 02:18 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jan 10 - 02:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 02:44 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:48 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 02:57 PM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 02:59 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Jan 10 - 03:04 PM
Lox 29 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 03:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 05:00 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 05:19 PM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM
mousethief 29 Jan 10 - 05:46 PM
Don Firth 29 Jan 10 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jan 10 - 06:40 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Jan 10 - 06:46 PM
Ebbie 29 Jan 10 - 07:21 PM
Royston 29 Jan 10 - 07:31 PM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 07:32 PM
akenaton 29 Jan 10 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jan 10 - 11:13 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 10 - 11:53 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 29 Jan 10 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,Uncle Rumpo 30 Jan 10 - 01:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 01:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 01:46 AM
GUEST,Uncle Rumpo 30 Jan 10 - 02:03 AM
Don Firth 30 Jan 10 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,Uncle Rumpo 30 Jan 10 - 02:27 AM
Smedley 30 Jan 10 - 03:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 04:01 AM
Royston 30 Jan 10 - 04:03 AM
Smedley 30 Jan 10 - 04:16 AM
akenaton 30 Jan 10 - 04:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 04:41 AM
akenaton 30 Jan 10 - 04:44 AM
Royston 30 Jan 10 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 05:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 05:29 AM
Royston 30 Jan 10 - 05:39 AM
Smedley 30 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM
Royston 30 Jan 10 - 05:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 10 - 06:23 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 10 - 06:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 06:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 06:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 06:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 06:59 AM
Royston 30 Jan 10 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,keith A 30 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 04:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 10 - 05:11 PM
Lox 30 Jan 10 - 05:27 PM
Lox 30 Jan 10 - 05:30 PM
Donuel 30 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM
Pierre Le Chapeau 30 Jan 10 - 05:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 10 - 07:06 PM
akenaton 30 Jan 10 - 08:03 PM
Royston 30 Jan 10 - 08:15 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Jan 10 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Jan 10 - 12:11 AM
Ebbie 31 Jan 10 - 12:50 AM
mousethief 31 Jan 10 - 12:51 AM
Smedley 31 Jan 10 - 02:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 10 - 02:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 10 - 02:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 10 - 02:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 10 - 02:41 AM
Royston 31 Jan 10 - 04:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 31 Jan 10 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 10 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 10 - 08:18 AM
Lox 31 Jan 10 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM
Lox 31 Jan 10 - 04:16 PM
Royston 31 Jan 10 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Jan 10 - 04:57 PM
Royston 31 Jan 10 - 05:20 PM
Don Firth 31 Jan 10 - 06:14 PM
mousethief 31 Jan 10 - 06:44 PM
Don Firth 31 Jan 10 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Jan 10 - 09:34 PM
Don Firth 31 Jan 10 - 10:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Feb 10 - 01:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 10 - 03:16 AM
Smedley 01 Feb 10 - 04:52 AM
Smedley 01 Feb 10 - 04:53 AM
Lox 01 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM
Don Firth 01 Feb 10 - 01:59 PM
mousethief 01 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM
mousethief 01 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Feb 10 - 06:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Feb 10 - 06:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Feb 10 - 07:02 PM
Don Firth 01 Feb 10 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Feb 10 - 10:34 PM
Ebbie 02 Feb 10 - 12:58 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Feb 10 - 01:05 AM
Smedley 02 Feb 10 - 04:08 AM
Royston 02 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM
Smedley 02 Feb 10 - 04:24 AM
mousethief 02 Feb 10 - 02:08 PM
akenaton 02 Feb 10 - 02:37 PM
Lox 02 Feb 10 - 03:07 PM
Smedley 02 Feb 10 - 03:42 PM
akenaton 02 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM
mousethief 02 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Feb 10 - 07:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 10 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Feb 10 - 01:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 10 - 02:08 AM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 02:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 10 - 03:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Feb 10 - 07:04 AM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 07:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 10 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 10 - 08:08 AM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 09:00 AM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 10 - 10:32 AM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 11:01 AM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 01:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 10 - 02:36 PM
mousethief 04 Feb 10 - 02:38 PM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Feb 10 - 03:36 PM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 03:44 PM
Don Firth 04 Feb 10 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Feb 10 - 03:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 05:30 PM
Paul Burke 04 Feb 10 - 05:38 PM
Royston 04 Feb 10 - 05:51 PM
Lox 04 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM
Lox 04 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM
Don Firth 04 Feb 10 - 08:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 10 - 07:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 10 - 07:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Feb 10 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Feb 10 - 10:24 AM
Royston 05 Feb 10 - 12:35 PM
Don Firth 05 Feb 10 - 12:51 PM
Lox 05 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Feb 10 - 02:04 PM
Don Firth 05 Feb 10 - 06:22 PM
Ebbie 05 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM
Royston 05 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Feb 10 - 09:57 PM
Ebbie 05 Feb 10 - 10:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Feb 10 - 10:33 PM
Don Firth 05 Feb 10 - 10:51 PM
Don Firth 05 Feb 10 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,keith devious and untrustworthy A 06 Feb 10 - 11:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Feb 10 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Feb 10 - 04:01 PM
Paco O'Barmy 06 Feb 10 - 04:09 PM
Lox 06 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,keith 06 Feb 10 - 06:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 10 - 07:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Feb 10 - 07:25 PM
Lox 06 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM
Royston 06 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM
Don Firth 06 Feb 10 - 08:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 10 - 09:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 10 - 09:35 AM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 01:09 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 01:26 PM
akenaton 07 Feb 10 - 01:45 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Keith A 07 Feb 10 - 02:34 PM
akenaton 07 Feb 10 - 03:50 PM
Ebbie 07 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM
akenaton 07 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM
akenaton 07 Feb 10 - 04:31 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM
Don Firth 07 Feb 10 - 04:55 PM
Lox 07 Feb 10 - 05:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 10 - 05:36 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM
Royston 07 Feb 10 - 05:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 10 - 06:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 10 - 07:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 10 - 08:17 AM
Royston 08 Feb 10 - 08:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 10 - 09:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 10 - 09:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 10 - 01:48 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Feb 10 - 02:42 AM
Royston 09 Feb 10 - 03:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM
Royston 09 Feb 10 - 05:18 AM
Royston 09 Feb 10 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 10 - 05:55 AM
Royston 09 Feb 10 - 09:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 10 - 09:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Feb 10 - 09:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 10 - 10:03 AM
Royston 09 Feb 10 - 10:09 AM
frogprince 09 Feb 10 - 10:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 10 - 11:39 AM
Royston 09 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM
Royston 09 Feb 10 - 12:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 10 - 06:12 PM
Don Firth 09 Feb 10 - 07:21 PM
Royston 10 Feb 10 - 09:42 AM
Royston 10 Feb 10 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM
akenaton 10 Feb 10 - 02:10 PM
Royston 10 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM
Royston 10 Feb 10 - 02:34 PM
Lox 10 Feb 10 - 02:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 10 - 02:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 10 - 02:55 PM
Royston 10 Feb 10 - 04:10 PM
Royston 10 Feb 10 - 04:30 PM
akenaton 10 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM
Lox 10 Feb 10 - 06:50 PM
Royston 10 Feb 10 - 06:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 01:43 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 03:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 03:40 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 04:05 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 05:14 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 05:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 05:39 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 06:53 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 07:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 07:23 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 08:10 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 08:25 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 08:30 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 08:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 08:48 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 09:43 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 10:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM
Smedley 11 Feb 10 - 10:10 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 10:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 10:23 AM
Smedley 11 Feb 10 - 10:30 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 11:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 11:18 AM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 12:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 02:42 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 03:06 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 03:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 03:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 03:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 03:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 03:46 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 04:03 PM
Paco O'Barmy 11 Feb 10 - 04:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 05:29 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 05:40 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM
Royston 11 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Feb 10 - 06:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Feb 10 - 07:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 01:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 01:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 01:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 01:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 01:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 01:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 02:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 03:02 AM
Royston 12 Feb 10 - 09:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 10 - 11:10 AM
Royston 12 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM
Royston 12 Feb 10 - 01:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Feb 10 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,Keith A 12 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 10 - 06:00 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 10 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,keith 12 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Feb 10 - 08:24 AM
Royston 14 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Feb 10 - 03:34 AM
Don Firth 15 Feb 10 - 06:09 PM
Don Firth 16 Feb 10 - 12:04 AM
Ebbie 16 Feb 10 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Feb 10 - 12:24 PM
KB in Iowa 16 Feb 10 - 12:49 PM
Ebbie 16 Feb 10 - 12:52 PM
frogprince 16 Feb 10 - 01:09 PM
Don Firth 16 Feb 10 - 03:20 PM
gnu 16 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM
Don Firth 16 Feb 10 - 09:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 10 - 09:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM
Ebbie 21 Feb 10 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 10 - 11:43 AM
Smedley 21 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM
Don Firth 21 Feb 10 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Feb 10 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Feb 10 - 08:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Feb 10 - 09:22 PM
Don Firth 21 Feb 10 - 09:47 PM
Don Firth 21 Feb 10 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Feb 10 - 11:17 PM
Don Firth 22 Feb 10 - 02:12 PM
akenaton 22 Feb 10 - 05:24 PM
akenaton 22 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM
Don Firth 22 Feb 10 - 07:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 10 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM
Don Firth 22 Feb 10 - 11:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Feb 10 - 11:48 PM
Don Firth 23 Feb 10 - 12:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 10 - 01:48 AM
Joe Offer 23 Feb 10 - 03:14 AM
Smedley 23 Feb 10 - 03:40 AM
Smedley 23 Feb 10 - 03:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 10 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 10 - 08:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 10 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 10 - 10:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 10 - 10:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 10 - 11:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 10 - 11:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 10 - 11:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Feb 10 - 01:15 PM
akenaton 23 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM
Don Firth 23 Feb 10 - 07:06 PM
akenaton 23 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM
gnu 23 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM
Don Firth 24 Feb 10 - 12:49 AM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 10 - 01:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Feb 10 - 02:10 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Feb 10 - 02:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 10 - 03:19 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Feb 10 - 04:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Feb 10 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Feb 10 - 09:21 AM
Don Firth 24 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM
akenaton 24 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM
Ebbie 24 Feb 10 - 05:48 PM
akenaton 24 Feb 10 - 06:47 PM
Lox 24 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Feb 10 - 03:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Feb 10 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Feb 10 - 02:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Feb 10 - 03:00 PM
Don Firth 25 Feb 10 - 04:29 PM
Lox 25 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM
akenaton 25 Feb 10 - 04:42 PM
Don Firth 25 Feb 10 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Feb 10 - 11:33 PM
Ebbie 26 Feb 10 - 12:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Feb 10 - 01:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 10 - 02:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 10 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Feb 10 - 03:06 AM
Ebbie 26 Feb 10 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM
Don Firth 26 Feb 10 - 03:06 PM
Don Firth 26 Feb 10 - 03:58 PM
akenaton 26 Feb 10 - 04:16 PM
Royston 26 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM
Ebbie 26 Feb 10 - 06:44 PM
Lox 26 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM
Lox 26 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM
akenaton 26 Feb 10 - 07:34 PM
Royston 26 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Feb 10 - 11:00 PM
Don Firth 27 Feb 10 - 01:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 06:43 AM
Royston 27 Feb 10 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 06:52 AM
Royston 27 Feb 10 - 07:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM
Royston 27 Feb 10 - 07:19 AM
Lox 27 Feb 10 - 07:21 AM
Royston 27 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Feb 10 - 08:25 AM
Royston 27 Feb 10 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Feb 10 - 11:05 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 10 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Keith A 27 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM
Don Firth 27 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM
akenaton 27 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM
akenaton 27 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Feb 10 - 03:41 AM
Royston 28 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM
akenaton 28 Feb 10 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM
Don Firth 28 Feb 10 - 03:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM
Don Firth 28 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM
akenaton 28 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM
Don Firth 28 Feb 10 - 06:37 PM
akenaton 28 Feb 10 - 06:52 PM
Don Firth 28 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM
Don Firth 28 Feb 10 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM
Don Firth 01 Mar 10 - 01:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 10 - 03:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 10 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,guest from Sanity 01 Mar 10 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Mar 10 - 11:13 AM
Royston 01 Mar 10 - 01:34 PM
Royston 01 Mar 10 - 01:36 PM
Royston 01 Mar 10 - 01:39 PM
Don Firth 01 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM
Royston 01 Mar 10 - 03:37 PM
Don Firth 01 Mar 10 - 04:23 PM
akenaton 01 Mar 10 - 05:26 PM
Don Firth 01 Mar 10 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Mar 10 - 09:32 PM
Don Firth 01 Mar 10 - 10:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Mar 10 - 02:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 02:28 AM
Royston 02 Mar 10 - 03:08 AM
Royston 02 Mar 10 - 03:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 03:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 03:28 AM
Royston 02 Mar 10 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 05:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Mar 10 - 06:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 07:11 AM
Royston 02 Mar 10 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 08:08 AM
Royston 02 Mar 10 - 09:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 10 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Mar 10 - 11:05 AM
Don Firth 02 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 01:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 02:00 AM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 04:57 AM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 05:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 07:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Mar 10 - 09:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Mar 10 - 12:33 PM
Ebbie 03 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM
Don Firth 03 Mar 10 - 12:52 PM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 02:13 PM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 02:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 03:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 04:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 04:10 PM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 04:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 04:31 PM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 10 - 05:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Mar 10 - 06:15 PM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 06:41 PM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 06:46 PM
Royston 03 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Mar 10 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Mar 10 - 11:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 10 - 01:29 AM
Royston 04 Mar 10 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 10 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 10 - 04:03 AM
Smedley 04 Mar 10 - 05:11 AM
Smedley 04 Mar 10 - 05:12 AM
Smedley 04 Mar 10 - 05:13 AM
Smedley 04 Mar 10 - 05:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 10 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 10 - 08:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Mar 10 - 09:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 10 - 10:19 AM
Royston 04 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM
akenaton 04 Mar 10 - 02:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 10 - 02:42 PM
Royston 04 Mar 10 - 04:35 PM
Royston 04 Mar 10 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 10 - 05:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Mar 10 - 05:41 PM
Royston 04 Mar 10 - 05:46 PM
Royston 04 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM
Don Firth 04 Mar 10 - 07:56 PM
akenaton 04 Mar 10 - 08:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM
Don Firth 04 Mar 10 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Mar 10 - 10:09 PM
Don Firth 04 Mar 10 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Mar 10 - 01:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 10 - 02:23 AM
Royston 05 Mar 10 - 03:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 10 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 10 - 07:41 AM
Royston 05 Mar 10 - 08:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 10 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 10 - 09:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Mar 10 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 10 - 11:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 10 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM
Royston 05 Mar 10 - 04:49 PM
Royston 05 Mar 10 - 04:55 PM
Royston 05 Mar 10 - 05:06 PM
Royston 05 Mar 10 - 05:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 10 - 01:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 10 - 01:59 AM
Don Firth 06 Mar 10 - 02:18 AM
Royston 06 Mar 10 - 04:23 AM
Royston 06 Mar 10 - 04:24 AM
Royston 06 Mar 10 - 04:43 AM
Royston 06 Mar 10 - 04:44 AM
Royston 06 Mar 10 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Mar 10 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Mar 10 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Keith A 07 Mar 10 - 05:30 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Mar 10 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 10 - 04:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 10 - 09:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Mar 10 - 06:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Mar 10 - 06:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 10 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Mar 10 - 06:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Mar 10 - 08:14 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Mar 10 - 08:16 PM
Don Firth 09 Mar 10 - 09:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 10 - 02:32 AM
Royston 10 Mar 10 - 03:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 10 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 10 - 04:37 AM
akenaton 10 Mar 10 - 05:06 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Mar 10 - 10:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 10 - 03:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Mar 10 - 04:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 10 - 04:34 AM
Don Firth 11 Mar 10 - 03:39 PM
Royston 11 Mar 10 - 05:18 PM
Royston 11 Mar 10 - 05:25 PM
Royston 11 Mar 10 - 05:57 PM
Royston 11 Mar 10 - 05:57 PM
Royston 11 Mar 10 - 06:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 10 - 02:30 AM
akenaton 12 Mar 10 - 03:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 10 - 07:18 AM
Royston 12 Mar 10 - 10:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 10 - 11:13 AM
Royston 12 Mar 10 - 11:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 10 - 12:34 PM
akenaton 12 Mar 10 - 01:31 PM
Royston 12 Mar 10 - 02:52 PM
akenaton 12 Mar 10 - 03:06 PM
Don Firth 12 Mar 10 - 03:28 PM
akenaton 12 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM
Don Firth 12 Mar 10 - 03:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Mar 10 - 04:11 PM
Royston 12 Mar 10 - 04:13 PM
gnu 12 Mar 10 - 04:20 PM
akenaton 12 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM
Royston 12 Mar 10 - 04:25 PM
Don Firth 12 Mar 10 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Keith A 13 Mar 10 - 04:57 AM
Royston 13 Mar 10 - 05:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 10 - 08:43 AM
Royston 13 Mar 10 - 10:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 10 - 10:53 AM
Royston 13 Mar 10 - 01:44 PM
Royston 13 Mar 10 - 01:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Mar 10 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Keith A 13 Mar 10 - 03:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Mar 10 - 03:42 PM
akenaton 13 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM
Royston 13 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM
akenaton 13 Mar 10 - 06:45 PM
Royston 13 Mar 10 - 06:54 PM
Royston 13 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM
Royston 13 Mar 10 - 07:48 PM
akenaton 13 Mar 10 - 08:20 PM
Don Firth 14 Mar 10 - 12:14 AM
GUEST,Keith A 14 Mar 10 - 03:55 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 05:44 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 06:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 06:43 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 06:54 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 10:04 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 10:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 11:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 12:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 10 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM
akenaton 14 Mar 10 - 01:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 02:07 PM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 02:27 PM
GUEST 15 Mar 10 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Mar 10 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 10 - 04:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 10 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 10 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Mar 10 - 03:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Mar 10 - 10:26 AM
akenaton 20 Mar 10 - 02:12 PM
Stringsinger 20 Mar 10 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Keith A 21 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Mar 10 - 07:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 10 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Mar 10 - 03:36 AM
akenaton 24 Mar 10 - 05:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 10 - 10:13 AM
Ebbie 25 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,en passe 26 Mar 10 - 12:12 PM
akenaton 26 Mar 10 - 06:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 04:51 AM
akenaton 23 Mar 11 - 06:55 PM
mauvepink 24 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 11 - 05:06 AM
Smedley 26 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 05:44 AM

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Subject: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM

Uganda is debating a law which would criminalise homosexuality, including the death penalty in some circumstances. The law is being promoted, apparently, by American Evangelical missionaries. Would any of our resident Christians and/ or homophobes care to indicate whether they find this to their taste?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:33 PM

I'd rather see Uganda make it legal to demonstrate TO American Evangelical missionaries exactly what is at issue.....

(I seriously doubt you'll find anyone here willing to bite on your dare, Paul. Very few are willing to put their names to the most extreme positions)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:28 PM

I'm not up for this kind of baiting whoever does it.

Neither big nor clever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:57 PM

Apparently? Well, that sounds apparently like possible conjecture. Have you any support for your hypothetical question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

TimesOnline

Apparently a legitimate report on a real proposal.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:22 PM

Obviously there are Christians who would be horrified at this kind of thing.

Then there are some home-grown Christians that would secretly support this.

Much of homophobia is engendered by an interpretation of the text in the bible.

Also, Islamic fundamentalists execute homosexuals, too.

Something the two religions have in common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:25 PM

When I was growing up in the 50's cartoons often showed missionaries in Africa being boiled in a big stew-pot. Not very politically correct these days, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM

Evil people will do Evil under any name they wish to use, Taliban does not represent Muslims, Nor does drinking the cool aid with poison or railing against others represent people of faith (Any Faith). Hate groups put on all kinds of masks to justify their actions of hate.

I think my faith is pretty solid and I am a Christian, and ya know what I scream loud and hard when gay people are discriminated against in any way shape or form in this life - as loud as I do when I hear of the injustice against minorities, women , or any other group. I have neighbors, friends and even family that is gay ...(And noone cares!)

you see for me and those I know with faith, As with flowers, God made a lot of wonderful variations in people. And those who try to use his name for hate purposes or political gains or reasons, know nothing of Faith.

Hate is not an option in Faith, it is just the opposite and those who do hate, have no faith so those people can label it Christian, Muslim anything they want but it is political and nothing more than an agenda to divide or try and justify their crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

Well, it would seem that MPs in Uganda have the right to introduce legislation, regardless of its prospects of passage, and individuals have the right to support it or not, regardless of their religious affiliation or the basic repugnance of the bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

There may be a handful of American Evangelical missionaries who support such a proposal, but there may well be a hundred times as many who are appalled by it.

Painting with too broad a brush is not just unfair, it's unwise. People who do it usually end up with a lot of paint on themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM

Scroll down a bit for the story:
http://www.abibitumikasa.com/forums/afrikan-social-systems/41481-uganda-museveni-warns-against-homosexuality.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:27 PM

Some more info:
http://www.afrol.com/articles/16744


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:24 PM

olddude, that was beautifully written. Thank you from this non-Christian who also has gays in the family as well as many friends who are homosexual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 11:06 PM

There is a connection to the Uganda law with the evangelical group of politicians in Washington, DC, on C street called The Family. We've discussed the Family in this thread.


From examiner.com
C Street politics: The Family sponsors death for homosexuals in Uganda
"Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni, and David Bahati, a key Ugandan lawmaker, are both active members of the Family, and the major force behind the legislation. Indeed, they represent the Family in Uganda. Bahati organizes the Family's Ugandan National Prayer Breakfast and oversees an African student leadership program designed to create future leaders for Africa, into which the Family has poured millions of dollars."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:18 AM

One of the most worrying aspects of this is the way that small yet powerful Evagelical groupings are starting to act like nineteenth-century imperialists - seeking to intervene in the affairs of non-Western nations as they see fit.   Intense moralism + imperialist arrogance = a very scary cocktail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:27 AM

"There may be a handful of American Evangelical missionaries who support such a proposal, but there may well be a hundred times as many who are appalled by it."

I'm sure that's true, but I'm not hearing their cries of protest. Perhaps, like Olddude, they should be screaming loud and hard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:31 AM

I am totally against the death penalty, whether for homosexual criminals or heterosexual criminals......with the possible exception of men who habitually rape or abuse babies and very small children.
They in my opinion are beyond human help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:36 AM

"I'm sure that's true, but I'm not hearing their cries of protest. Perhaps, like Olddude, they should be screaming loud and hard."

So who's crties of protest are you hearing?


... what's that sound? .... wait ... I heard a pin drop ...

That was the sound of the christians not protesting.

Everyone else was just being sileent as a mark of respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:37 AM

Tolerance and acceptance of the gay community has yet to reach most non western countries.
The Anglican Church is having real problems persuading its African communicants to join our acceptance of gay priests and bishops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM

Death penalty : when have two wrongs (and I do NOT mean homosexuality) ever made a right ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:35 AM

Yes, Bryn: but that applies, not only to capital punishment, but to the entire concept of punishment in general and thruout — ALL punishment consists of replying to one wrong with another: doing wrong to the offender by imposing on him an experience he would prefer to evade; otherwise it wouldn't BE a punishment. It is a self-evidently terrible idea. Unfortunately nobody has yet come up with a better one.

In my teaching days I would say to a new class I was meeting for the first time, "I intend there to be no punishments in my lessons" — at which they would smirk self-satisfiedly. After a pause I would add, "So - you begin."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:40 AM

"Tolerance and acceptance of the gay community has yet to reach most non western countries."
Doesn't 'tolerance' imply that homosexuality is a crime or a weakness?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:07 AM

I think it would be helpful to 'Christianity' (and to Christians) as a world-wide religion if moderate denominations (ie: most of them) were to make some form of formal collective denunciation/condemnation of extremist Christian groups who advocate murdering certain doctors/praying for other people to die/murdering gay people, and so-on.
A kind of 'not in the name of Christ' sorta deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:08 AM

"So who's crties of protest are you hearing?"

Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the media who are covering this event....will that do for a start?

Now, your point was what, exactly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:48 AM

Pardon me for asking, but would somebody please point me toward the mention of missionaries, American, Evangelical, or other.

I've followed the links, and I don't think I've missed anything, but I saw no indication of foreign input in support.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:30 AM

To tarnish all Christians with the same brush is wrong. There are things in most Holy Books, I'd imagine, which have been written by those with 'agendas'. The vast majority of people have the common sense and a sense of love and peace that comes so much of their Holy Books.

Those who seek to use any form of religion, purely for their own evil means, as Dan has mentioned above, should be rooted out. And yes, I'm with Crow Sister here, I think a 'Not in the name of Christ' campaign, would be wonderful...as would 'Not in the name of Allah' too.

Most religions are based on peace and love, and most who choose to follow those religions choose to follow that path.

Please do not therefore brand ALL Christians, Muslims, Jews..etc.. as feeling this way.

The British National Party is er...British, but they do not stand for what I believe, even though I am British.

Common sense is needed here, methinks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:41 AM

"Islamic fundamentalists execute homosexuals, too.
Something the two religions have in common."


No, just something fundamentalists have in common.

(to my mind, neither group deserves the description "religious")


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:24 AM

The most homophobic faith is probably the judaic although chistianity and islam too are not devoid of this trait,.In any event no religion has the right to intrude into the bed chamber in matters involving consenting adults. if they choose to practice their filthy habits in the privacy of their own apartments then its no-ne else's business!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM

Can someone please point me to the part of the New Testament which demands the death penalty for any 'crime' or 'offence', whether by homo- or hetero-sexuals, Christians or Non-Christians, white men, black men or, for that matter, blue men?

If it's there, I've never seen it, and it's wrong to tar all Christians with the same brush as a few who hold extreme (and fundamentally un-Christian) views. Just the same as it's wrong to brand all Muslims as violent, murderous infidel-haters. Both are patently untrue.

Christians all over the world, all the time, announce their opposition to all sorts of wrongs and injustices, including killing, by the acts of living, practising and publically acknowledging, their Faith. There are millions who do just that, just as there are millions from other Faiths, and of no Faith, who live their lives as shining examples of goodness and humanity.

The good guys outnumber the bastards by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to one. Unfortunately, it's always the bastards that we get to hear about, and the shit they fling about always seems to land on the good guys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:41 AM

The death penalty (as a maximal penalty, depending on the case) for homosexuality exists in the following countries:

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Nigeria, Mauritania

I do not see a pronounced Christian influence in these countries.

If some extreme Christians want to follow that example that reminds me of the position towards evolution: The most extreme rejection is shared by Christian and Muslim fundamentalists (literalists).

"When you criticize only one group for things that are done by all groups, you are practicing hypocrisy as well as bigotry" (CarolC)

Wolfgang)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 09:08 AM

I'm a Christian, and I don't like this idea that they might do in Uganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 09:19 AM

Mark, Chapter 7: 8-11: "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men. And he said to them: 'You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."

It seem to me that Jesus quotes Moses approvingly here.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:45 AM

Don, just google "C Street The Family Uganda homosexuality" and you will find many articles about the support of this law and the people behind it in Uganda by the Republican politicians in the US who are member of the "Family", an evangelical cult in DC on C Street.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:51 AM

Ummmmm, wasn't Moses in the Old Testament, Wolfgang? I.e Before Christ? The teachings of the Old Testament differ greatly from the New Testament. Or are German Bibles different to English ones?

And it seems to me that Jesus (if Mark was indeed quoting Jesus - I'll check that when I get home) was demonstrating to the Jews that they had put aside (many of) God's commands, and using the extreme example of putting to death anyone who cursed his parents to press home his point. I don't see any approval, tacit or otherwise, in there.

But then I'm not seeking to see that approval. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM

So who's crties of protest are you hearing?


... what's that sound? .... wait ... I heard a pin drop ...

That was the sound of the christians not protesting.

Everyone else was just being sileent as a mark of respect.


Not too many Mudcatters, it seems to me, are in a position to know what the 'common' Christian thinks about this. I know that my sister's church is discussing it and asking how they can help get across the message of love and acceptance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:42 PM

This all comes back to the political agenda of the cult on C Street called The Family. Google and read about it. I was raised a Christian (Catholic) although I'm not a member of any religion now, and I don't think most Christians would find what is happening in Uganda or within "The Family" to 'their taste'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM

Well I cannot speak for everyone, but I sure can speak for me, I have rattled cages where it helps most over and over. I know the Clintons, my daughter worked for Hillary in DC when she was a senator, My message went out quite clearly on a direct path. And I am absolutely sure the real faith community will be heard , that is all faiths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM

Thanks for the links Alice.

Christ, that rats' nest needs fumigating, doesn't it?

They make Fred Phelps look like a boy scout.

Seems like a good argument for the real Christian Churches to make a very loud show of excommunicating the whole vicious evil lot.

What happened to the popular myth that the USA separates religion fom government?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:00 PM

I think that the Ugandan Government has the right to pass the laws as they see fit. But they should not stop at gays. What about the fornicators? The adulterers? The shrimp eaters? I am sick and tired of "Christians" who treat Leviticus as and a la carte menu while completely ignoring the message of Jesus. Executing people for their sins is not loving thy neighbor as thyself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Tinker
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:01 PM

Here is one church speaking out...House of Deputies president condemns proposed Uganda anti-homosexuality legislation

Churches that are not making fundamentalist statements often get little press coverage for their stands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM

Wolfgang is probably right in quoting Jesus as approving of the death penalty in that case, though I know of no Christian administration which imposes it for cursing one's parents. I think he also said something about millstones. That's not the point. The thinking Christians have gone a long way beyond the letter of the Bible, old or new, and have accepted- proclaimed- that what was offered was not a prescription or a set of inviolable rules, but a framework to guide thinking. Christians of this sort have been at the forefront of many of the great campaigns- against slavery, against capital punishment, for social justice, for civic freedoms, against poverty, for equality. But there still seems to be something of the attitude that diehard Communists used to have in the seventies- to deny the evidence of Stalinism in their case. It was all propoganda, you can't believe the enemy. So some people seem to see any criticism of the fundies as criticism of themselves.

It seems to me that "Christian" is not even a useful label- You can't tell anything about a person's beliefs from it, as it encompasses the range from one extreme to another. This is one of the extremes; I'm very happy that most Christians here are much closer to the opposite pole. And it's nice to see people with the courage to speak out on the subject, even if it exposes the raw truth that you can't have unity with polar opposites.

I think the Ugandan obscenity is best seen in terms of a movement which is competing for members, rather than trying to lead them. In societies in which men feel they have to prove their masculinity- often because they are economically marginalised in post- colonial societies- they may well suffer from gender insecurity and fear of being identified as un- masculine. Failing to support hardliners coukld be one way of avoiding the charge of softness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:40 PM

Recent events in Ireland are, in my opinion, the strongest case yet for the church (any church) having no say whatever in the sexual behaviour of the people - ever again.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM

Remember...Jesus, whoever and whatever he was..or wasn't.. didn't write books. People wrote what they HEARD about him, from 70 to 250 years after his death. In fact, most of the Christian bible was compiled in very strange ways, and a lot of it says what certain clerics and those who directed those clerics wanted said.

You can find almost anything in it you wish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM

I do not recognize that translation Wolfgang. Shouldn't it be "Shall die" or "let them die" rather than "Must be put to death?"

But even so, the context of Mark 7 clearly shows that Jesus is pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, he is not telling them to go out a kill those who openly disagree with their mothers. He is telling them to lay off his people for such a minor thing while they let more clear and blatant sins go unpunished. To me this is a major implication of Christ's message, one that is often ignored by those most loudly professing to follow him.

Do you recall "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Do you believe that he meant that mercy only apply to harlots? It applies to all sinners. Christians forgive. They do not mete out punishment. Punishment is the purview of government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM

I wrote about this last week. If that is what the people of Uganda want, they should have it.

If on the other hand this is what the C Street family wants for the people of Uganda but the people do not, it would be biblical justice to execute one C Street family member for every gay Ugandan executed.

starting with Inhoff


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM

Jim,

"Doesn't 'tolerance' imply that homosexuality is a crime or a weakness?"

Not always.

It could mean that someone feels uncomfortable or finds it hard to believe or empathise with homosexuals, yet they accept and respect that homosexuals have equal rights and are therefore accepting of them.

My closest friends are 90% compatible with me. I tolerate the other 10% with no difficulty.

Do you see how I am using the word?

It doesn't always have to be a negative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

There is no room in old time religion for either tolerence or positive spin. Zero Tolerence - No Spin!

This year we must re double our efforts to ban the pornographic secular Christmas carols that are a Abomination to our Lord!!

Strike from thy lips "Don we now our gay apparel"
The word gay appears in no fewer than 4 carols and must be purged and destroyed...and that goes for that fruity reindeer Prancer too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM

Leveller, regarding your post of 01 Dec 09 - 03:27 a.m.—and to others—there are plenty of Christians who are speaking out strongly on this matter. But apparently, they are far less interesting to the news media than are those relatively few loudmouths who want gays lynched.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:16 PM

Whta would one expect from the country that gave the world Idi Amin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:26 AM

Names, please. Who are the American evangelicals who support his proposed law?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:41 AM

Some here.

Takes a few seconds to load.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:57 AM

Well, I've found some stuff about 'The Family',an alleged 'Christian' organization that supposedly has funded the Ugandan politician that introduced the legislation. And the cowardly Rick Warren has refused to condemn the proposal. Absolutely noxious, this should be fought tooth and nail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:17 AM

Well spoken, Jack The Sailor and Lox.
Truly, they are words of wisdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:37 AM

"It could mean that someone feels uncomfortable...."
Thanks Lox - something to think about.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:48 AM

""It could mean that someone feels uncomfortable...."
Thanks Lox - something to think about."

No - it couldn't mean that someone feels uncomfortable.

That isn't what tolerance means.

But in many diffferent contexts, such as where people disagree, or where people have different ways of doing things - like washing up ... tolerance can mean "being accepting and respectful of how others are different to you."

A classic example might be a married couple who get on 90% of the time but are 10% incompatible. It could be that a common source of tension is the manner in which the dishes are washed. I do it one way and you do it another.

If both are intolerant of the differences then they might end up bickering and falling out. If they learn to tolerate each others differences then they will probably succeed as a couple.

A gay couple might learn to tolerate each others differences.

A woman might tolerate the flirtatious habit of a close male friend - or vice versa.

We are all different and there are some people who instinctively feel uncomfortable about homosexuals and homosexuality.

I consider myself lucky for not being afflicted by any such handicap.

But I don't judge anyone who is.

I do react strongly when people decide that they have the right to Judge homosexuals, when misinformation is peddled about homosexuals and I stand up to people who would like to limit the civil rights of homosexuals and victimize homosexuals.

By "tolerate" we do not only have to mean "put up with" which is how you are understanding it.

A tolerant society is one where those who disagree or are instinctively incompatible with homosexuals learn to be respectful of their civil rights and accepting of their place in society and learn to coexist peacefully in the workplace and elsewhere with gay colleagues etc.

It is unrealistic to expect everyone to be friends with everyone all of the time.

That's where the notion of cultural and political tolerance come in.

You asked "Is it a crime?"

Society doesn't tolerate crimes. It does tolerate my point of view and yours and it tolerates both our sexual orientations too regardless of what they might be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:34 AM

Bear in mind that the law also includes a three year prison sentence for anyone who becomes aware of a male homosexual or a lesbian and does not inform the authorities within 24 hours. So if you are not prepared to turn someone in for death, you have to face a punishment yourself. Heaven help any Ugandan Underground Railroad.

The death penalty does have limits on it, apparently. It is for people who have had a relationship with an underage person of the same sex, have relationships when they know they are HIV positive, and one other case which escapes me, but probably includes force or non-consensual sex.

Part of the arguments about it concern the idea that homosexuals groom a child from a school and promise them rewards for "converting" another child, and "once two children have gone, the whole school is lost". There is a strong idea that homosexuality is a learned or chosen behaviour, and not inborn.

But even so, it is appalling, and that it should be derived in the first place from British colonial law, and now American interference, is more so.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:09 AM

Religious fundamentalists don't do themselves any favours. In fact, they don't do religion in general any favours. You read something like this and end up thanking god you are not religious......

I must say, I am always waiting hopefully for influential religious leaders such as the Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury to say "not in my name."   They are too busy sorting out who owns the bigots to worry about how their clubs affect real people....

This Ugandan thing? Disgusting that these so called christians are aiding and abetting what would be illegal in their own country. Here in The UK, you can be prosecuted for crimes abroad. If the Ugandan government execute anybody, the happy clappers should by any moral code I can think of be guilty of aiding and abetting murder.

If anybody can find anything in the Bible that says homosexuality is wrong, the answer is simple. The bible is wrong, irrelevant and can we please move on.....

There is no god in any sense that man has described, and these fundamentalists from Dumbfuckistan are criminals with a disturbing mental health issue.

(A church should be a place of sanctuary, not sanctimony.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:15 AM

Well said again, Lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:51 AM

Death penalty for American Evangelical missionaries. might be a better idea. who has proof of god? the devil a care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 07:46 AM

All males are born as females, has that something to do with it? the devil a care. eat the rich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Dodger
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 08:38 AM

I mean females in the Womb


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:26 AM

This is the book and the author who has uncovered the C Street evangelical links to Uganda and other foreign policy fiascos.

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060559799


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:09 AM

Would the world not be a better place without religion


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:26 AM

It might possibly be a better place without religion. It would not be a better place without Faith. One is not necessarily the same as the other.
IMHO. YMMV. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:18 PM

"It would not be a better place without Faith."
Totally agreen, as long as 'faith' doesn't have to be religious faith.
Am happy to have faith in my fellow humans - politicians, businessmen and bankers and clergymen excepted!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM

faith to me is trust
There is nothing we can totally trust, not the sky, not the earth beneath our feet and not always our fellow man. But ya still gotta trust somthing or someone somtimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM

Donuel
I trust you had a pleasant day?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM

Am happy to have faith in my fellow humans - politicians, businessmen and bankers and clergymen excepted!>>>

Come come, Jim — that's - er - well, - er - not racist or sexist or ageist: bit it sure·as·hell IS somethingist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM

Can we trust that there is a God


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:51 PM

Except for odd little attempts by a minority to do something like pass this law, Uganda is one of the better run and more progressive countries in the area. (
I know a woman who spent a number of months there working with the govt. as they try to modernize.)

As more information comes out, it begins to look like this proposed law would never have been put forth without the 'guidance' of some of the American evangelicals...such as "The Family". The seeds of hate were planted and nourished in complex ways...but we KNOW the justification for this law come from a twisted understanding of Christian theology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:37 PM

"Would the world not be a better place without religion"?

No

No more than the world would be a better place without homosexuals.

Or that the world would be better without, say, folk music!

Religion in itself is not bad. It's just a different way of living

Homosexuality is not bad. It's a different way of loving.

Neither are practiced by everybody and neither would suit everybody, obviously, but that is no excuse for not accepting those those that do.

The major difference, as I see it, is that one can choose to be religious and which religion one follows. Homosexuality is not a choice. It is 'merely' one form of innate sexual behaviour, not just in humans, but in many other animals. One that, in humans, can be intenseley loving as anything experienced by heterosexuals. Surely to love someone, each other, and ourselves, is all a part of the human condition and is far better than hating. I am not talking about just sexual love here but the love of a person in all it's forms.

Love is also at the centre of what Christianity surely is about? God so LOVED the world that he sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ....". And Jesus said "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another". Jesus said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends". Love, love, love... no mention of hatred and killing each other over sexuality that is not a choice.

Jesus message was one of love and forgiveness, not hate and condemnation, and I never read anything issuing from his mouth that suggested we should judge anyone.

Life, with all its complexities and diversities, is so rich and wonderfully challenging that there is room for everyone as long as they are not hurting others. Religious or not, when we challenge love we challenge the very thing that might just seperate us from the other animals.... love, spirituality, and the ability to put things right that have been wrong for a long time.

Sorry to have 'gone on' but, in my humble opinion, there are far worse things to fear than homsexuality going on in our world. Live and let love.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM

"it sure·as·hell IS somethingist!"
How about establishmentist - where do I sign?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 03:10 PM

Correct on all points, mauvepink.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM

"There is nothing we can totally trust, not the sky, not the earth beneath our feet and not always our fellow man. But ya still gotta trust somthing or someone somtimes. "

Did the sun rise this morning? You think it might come up again tomorrow?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:50 PM

Mauvepink, great.

I'm just watching an episode of Lewis in which the plot hinges on the strife between religious rules and the love of homosexuals, with the message "Love is never wrong".

It seems to me that the people who take the view of the fundies on homosexual love don't know love when they see it. It is quite worrying to think that they cannot think of any sort of sex without stripping it of love - and the attitudes of those who espouse celibacy and abstinence and impose restrictions on others' expression of love whether hetero or homo tend to back this up.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM

I reckon Mauvepink does have a point. (In the abstract, but let's not get picky.)

However, and please, anybody, help me understand this;

If I felt so strongly about a religious creed and genuinely believed the unambiguous message of love, forgiveness, turning the other cheek and reaching out to those we don't understand...

I reckon I would be at the forefront of demanding that "leaders" of my faith denounce fundamentalist hijackers of the message, and would have huge problems being associated with the institutional bigotry; not only this extreme example but the softer ones such as vicars wanting to take communion with Catholics because their brand of homophobia and lack of women doing the job suits some so called representatives of the "good news."

You see, whilst ever religions can ignore equal rights legislation (that should affect their status as charities and as employers) I have HUGE issues with them trying to give society a steer. I really do.

Mind you, I can't be a hypocrite. Even if they did join the 21st Century, I don't need an abstract concept to give me a moral steer. I watched David Attenborough's Life series and was fascinated by the altruism and community based behaviour of other animals, such as insects, reptiles, fish, furry mammals and even microscopic organisms. Some of which have never heard a sermon or read the bible......


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:23 AM

I'm a lifelong Catholic, and I've worked in the Catholic Church all my life - so I know the situation in the American Catholic Church quite well. Despite the official stand against homosexual sex, most priests and nuns I know are very sympathetic to the concerns of homosexuals. And it seems to me that most Catholic lay people and bishops have attitudes that are far more rigidly opposed to homosexuals. Many Catholic priests and nuns aren't particularly pleased about the idea of anti-homosexual Anglicans joining the Catholics.
It's a dilemma that's not as easily resolved as one might think.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:01 AM

If God did not exist... would we be having this conversation about Uganda, debating a law which would criminalise homosexuality, including the death penalty in some circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:05 AM

Sorry Toerag - cannot begin to understand the point you are making. Could you perhaps expound it a little further & with more clarity? Why should the fact that we are having this conversation in any way presuppose or indicate the existence of the Deity in whom it appears you believe but I don't?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:19 AM

No god no American Evangelical missionaries. so God seems to be the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:39 AM

I think you are metaphysically confused TR — the problem is not God as such, but the question as to the actual existence of such an entity. But I leave this topic now as my head begins to spin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:08 AM

ToeRag does make one interesting point.

God does exist.

As a concept.

Descartes said "I think, therefore I am." So in that sense god does exist.

God exists as ever, as an instrument for helping the few domineer the many. T'was ever thus. I reckon that if you got rid of religion, you would have to invent it anyway. Look at the countries where religion was banned. It was banned so it didn't compete with the state system to gain the same end. ie., fodder for the masses.

ToeRag isn't quite so accurate with the idea of no god, no missionaries. We would have missionaries, but their role would be pushing state propaganda.

About time these idiots from the bible belt (aka Dumbfuckistan) realised that the vast majority of people may not be able to say whether there is a god or not, but at least most people know the so called moral code extracted from scripture is flawed, irrelevant and in places downright disgusting. (ie the cause of debate in this thread.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM

My point is, God does not exist, so no need for the bible belt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 10:12 AM

What amazes me is people think this has something truly to do with Religion, It doesn't

It has to do with hate and the masks evil people use to divided and spread their hate.   

Your hatred for people of faith makes you a victim falling into their hands. Painting with a broad brush to generalize people without the least bit of understanding what faith is.

Hitler was very successful in convincing the whole of Germany that all evils that befell the German people were cause by the Jews. Use whatever popular mask to spread the hate. That is what hate does.

Church groups that do amazing wonderful things, never get the press never, only the hate groups that use the false label of Christian get the press so everyone like many here can blame and generalize the "Christians" are the cause of it all. And many of the TV guys get their evil press by preaching hate knowning nothing of God.

True Christian people are easy targets ... and it amazes me how so many people buy into the message without the least bit of understanding. Go ahead and label, but from my perspective.

If you wish to make a true change in the world, if you want to make life better for everyone. Do what I try to do every day. "FIND THE HATE THAT LIVES IN OURSELVES" WHATEVER THAT HATE MAYBE AND GET RID OF IT. then and only then can we try to remove the hate from others.

Hate is in all forms, people who say the immigrants are taking our jobs, the minorities are crossing over to take our land. Yada yada, all hate all of it wrong, now it is the Christians are trying to kill people ....   fact is evil is evil pure and simple, any means especially popular ones will be used to justify evil


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:47 PM

There is a piece in New Scientist today about some research carried out in America on how people perceive the ideas held by God as compared with those they have themselves, those held by other Americans and a few other groups. These ideas were selected from a variety of topics, but I expect you can guess which ones.

What happened was that it turned out that those researched felt that God had the same opinions they did, while these might diverge from those held by the other groups.

The researchers then asked the subjects to develop an argument in favour of the opposite view from that they held themselves, for instance on the death penalty. They found that the subjects tendeed to change their own view on the subject, but also believed that God's opinion was different, while that they attributed to others had not changed.

Which means that, unless it is possible to get the proponents of the death penalty to argue against it, there isn't a hope in the hot place of getting them to accept that God does not want death for his children, or that they are not the real Christians.

They will see those who oppose them as the not Christians.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM

Gays Won't Go to Heaven: Cardinal, IslamOnline.net & Newspapers .

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1258880717525&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM

Dear God, please confirm what I believe

THAT is not only interestering but also frightening. It is also the third most popularly read article on "New Scientist" " today

Interesting in that I have found whenever I try to reason an omnipotent, loving God should be able to "do this, see that, help this, avoid that" I get told not to try and figure the mind of God. I am reminded I am human and can have no understanding of God's great plan. Frightening because if people create God's laws "in their own image", so to speak, then is boils down to using God as a scapegoat for evil doings, thereby never having to take responsibility for wrongful, terrible actions. Forgiveness, therefore, is all about who you can blame the bad act upon and, if it's God, then how can we possibly understand?

My simple brain now hurts so I am going out to listen to some great live folk music courtesy of a local Folk Club!

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 02:12 PM

Whether a Christian, Jew or a Hindu, Muslim, being more devout to one's religion makes him/her more opposed to homosexual practices,
So no God means homosexuals are safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,astro
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:39 PM

This religious discussion is very tired and old...and not important, what is important is the idea of countries imposing death penalties upon life style issues and should not only be opposed by individuals but also opposed (more importantly) by governments. Aid, trade, allowed travel from these countries should be stopped until these laws are dropped.

The whole purpose of this thread was not to show a concern for the gay Ugandans, but rather to impose a red herring to draw out those who hate religion (Christianity for certain) and those who may support such hideous laws. To me, a man of faith and a scientist, this is a tawdry method of discussion and is pretty sad. In all arenas, science or religion or business or politics or sports or..., you will find people of low opinion or ethics. To paint all in any arena by the lowest common denominator is just plain wrong and points to an agenda.

I know that in science, there are no good reasons to point to any population for special punishments while in religion I do know that when asked, Christ noted the greatest commandment was to love God with all you heart and soul and then closely the second greatest commandment was to love you neighbor as yourself. Those who cry Christ, Christ are not necessarily ones who follow Christ. You can tell by their actions. Calling for hate is a sure sign that they are not.

So, get the focus right, there are those out there who are suffering and those who want to make them suffer. Help those who are suffering and oppose those who want to make them suffer. It is simple as that, any other discussion is just smoke and blows away....and points that in truth they really don't care about those who are suffering...only to win the point. Which, in fact, was the whole agenda in the first place.

astro in LA


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:40 PM

The new testament is a book of unrestricted, compassion, hope and love, anyone calling themselves Christian or people of faith that don't see it are following a church leader, a false path, and not the teachings.   One passage that sums it all up

words of Jesus " when you do to the least of my
breathrens you do it to me"


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:51 PM

Astro
makes an excellent point, I would suggest that everyone that is in the USA write Hillary and let your voice be heard via the gov website. Hillary is a good person and good soul. Others contact your state departments. If you want a direct path PM me but you will need to include your full contact info and phone.   I can get it to her direct.

It is only when good people say enough that this stuff can be over come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM

"should not only be opposed by individuals but also opposed (more importantly) by governments. Aid, trade, allowed travel from these countries should be stopped until these laws are dropped.">>> writes Astro above.

An attractive argument; but it has always been a principle in diplomacy among nations that 'internal affairs' must be left to develop as the governments concerned see fit. We continue to maintain diplomatic relations & to trade with, e.g., SaudiArabia, who stoned a Princess [no less] to death for adultery not long since; regularly publicly amputate the hands of thieves; publicly flog blasphemers & fornicators of both sexes; behead those who abandon the faith··· Governments, by longstanding convention, do not interfere or sanction in such instances. How shall Uganda's proposed new laws be treated any differently without invidiousness?

This is not to imply that I don't think their proposals appalling. I do. But it seems to me that the situation is not as simple as many might wish, & these points need to be made.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:06 PM

"Descartes said "I think, therefore I am." So in that sense god does exist."

er ... nearly ...

What he actually said was that after he had stripped away all the things which he couldn't assert to be true with 100% surety, (i.e anything perceived by his senses) all that was left was his mind.

"I am; I think" Was the only thing he could not find grounds to doubt.

He does not argue that talking about the notion of himself makes him exist, he points out that at the end of his discourse, he is left with "I " I walk, I think, I disagree, I think, I don't think, I perceive wrongly, I trust nothing ... etc ...

In all cases, as long as I , then I exist.

This has no bearing on any external thing such as God.

He did try to go on to argue that God exists, but not on those grounds.

His thoughts and observations require the existence of "I" to occur.

"I think God exists" is not subjective to God but is still subjective to "I". Likewise with "I talk about God and therefore cause the idea of him to exist"


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

The whole purpose of this thread was not to show a concern for the gay Ugandans, but rather to impose a red herring to draw out those who hate religion (Christianity for certain) and those who may support such hideous laws.

No it wasn't (I should know). It was to show concern for gay Ugandans, and hopefully to draw enlightened Christians to oppose the vile machinations of their supposed co- religionists. What it did, sadly, was to expose the raw nerve and drive some people into denial.

As I pointed out earlier, thinking Christians have more in common with atheists than with certain varieties of fundamentalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM

Is this God talking those who feel homosexual impulses "perhaps aren't guilty, but by acting against the dignity of the body they will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:50 PM

Paul,

your OP insinuates that Homophobes and Christians are synonymous terms.

If that was not your intention it could be a good idea to clarify that point and to apologize to those christians who are not homophobes who may have been offended or hurt by their reasonable inferrence of your motives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM

Astro .....I've been reading all the bullshit and cosy rhetoric about different ways of living and loving, how homosexuality is genetic not behavioural and how its not really sexual at all, but just pure luuuuve, like we used to see in the movies.

I wasn't even going to bother to respond to the "feelgood sisterhood" but when I read your post I saw sincerity and clear sightedness.

I agree with your thoughts on this thread and the agendas of many who have posted here. I also agree that we should be putting our efforts into helping those who suffer, not punishing them.
To start helping to solve a problem, it is important to understand that there is a problem to begin with. People like mauvepink and others here, see any discussion of homosexuality and its place in our society as bigotry, but blinding ourselves to the problems associated with homosexuality is much worse, it condemns homosexuals to the lifestyle they have at present.....horrendous health and life expectancy statistics, promiscuity figures which point multiple sexual partners and a statistical link to child abuse, in the surveys on child abuse in the Catholic church.

These are real problems which need to be addressed in the way homosexuals in Los Angeles are dealing with the dreadful link to hiv/aids, facing up to the figures,accepting that there is a problem and attempting to find out why the problems exist.

No sane person wants to see fellow humans suffer, no matter what their sexual practices are and closing our eyes to what is actually happening around us helps no one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM

""Whether a Christian, Jew or a Hindu, Muslim, being more devout to one's religion makes him/her more opposed to homosexual practices,
So no God means homosexuals are safe.
""

Sorry ToeRag, but that's the biggest blooper you've managed yet.

Are you seriously saying that all gay bashers are religious zealots, and there are no atheists who oppose homosexuality?

What planet are you from?

There is no logical connection between the Ugandan situation an religion per se.

This is entirely about fundamentalism (with the accent on the "mental"), bigotry, and hatred. None of these are related to genuine religious feeling, but spring from an intense loathing of the "different, the "other".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM

I take a deep breath and think "OK, lets give this a chance.

Then I read:

"promiscuity figures which point multiple sexual partners"

Promiscuity being limited to Gay People of course ...

... and in "straight" clubs all over the country the boys and girls are all dropping down on one knee and proposing Marriage to their one and only sexual partber for life (only after marriage of course) and are all forming long nurturing relatonships with a view to procreating and getting a family going to which they are remaining loyal and faithful ...


"a statistical link to child abuse"

Because all Homosexuals are closet paedophiles.

Besides which, the statistics referred to only show that if you intend to interpret them to show that from the outset.

In fact they show something else, as was clearly pointed out in a previous thread, with no contest from the statistician who posted them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

Are you for real?
Have you actually read the CDC homosexual promiscuity figures?
Child abuse....81% to 19%?

Do you think I take any pleasure in quoting the figures for new Aids cases, promiscuity,etc?
If you do, you are indeed a lost cause!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:45 PM

"Have you actually read the CDC homosexual promiscuity figures?"

Have you been to any nightclub in the lsat 50 years?


"Child abuse....81% to 19%?"

81% to 19% of what?

And where does this information come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:01 PM

OK,

I've just been to the CDC site and found that they tended to investigate trends according to the following classifications: Age, Gander, Race ... no metion of sexual preference ...

... I did however find that the highest rates of STD suffering were in Teenage Girls and the next highest were young adult women ...

(Must be all those closet paedophile Gays who'll shag anything ... they did it)

There was also plenty of information about differences in sexual health for different races.

Minorities were found to be hit the hardest.

I wonder if racial minorities are closet paedophiles too .... I think we should be told ...


Hmmmmmmm ..............


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:19 PM

Gosh -this CDC site really is interesting ... look what I found ...

In This link, I discovered the following:

"The data also show that nongay-identified MSM are less likely than gay men to practice safer sex (CDC, 1993)."

Gosh.

Still nothing on promiscuity though ...

... best keep looking ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:31 PM

Ah now here we go ... an expose about the health Risks associated with being Gay ...

... at www.catholiceducation.org ...

I wonder if these are the same Catholics who are seemingly populated by sexually repressed closet Gay Paedophiles?


I'd Love to know ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:04 PM

I'll just post a few figures, as you seem to be unable to locate them


CDC


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM

As MSM, (homosexuals and bisexuals)account for only 2-3% of the population, these figures are indeed "horrendous"


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:54 PM

some ought to go find a copy of this old book


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:04 PM

Why would the CDC or Eurosurveillance wish to lie?

Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM

akenaton... "People like mauvepink and others here, see any discussion of homosexuality and its place in our society as bigotry"...

With respect: that what not what I said and it is certainly not what I think. I cannot say what others actually think as I am not blessed with mind reading abilities. There are many discussions about homosexuality, on all sorts of boards and forums, and the most are not bigoted (though bigoted comments can be found quite easily often). I think open discussion, in many things and on many subjects, is a way forward to people understanding others (if they really want to understand at all).

As for STI's and all the promiscuity. Well, figures actually also show that this is not just the domain of homosexuals. STI's affect all sexualities, genders and age groups (though some of the horrendous figures actually show up in young, straight females). STI's respect no boundaries if any sex is involved!

All I was saying, and I did say it was my opinion and not for everyone, is that homosexuality is just as much a part of human life as is blonde hair, freckles, being straight, and folk music ;-)

You do not have to agree with me: that is your right and your choice. But I do believe that being homosexual should have the same rights as those who are straight and that it is not down to choice. I think there is genetic evidence that shows it is not a lifestyle choice for most. If we concentrated more on actual human facts, and stopped blaming people for the genes they get from their parents, we could all be better off.

I also somehow think this explanation will hardly satisfy :-(

Fact is: I do not see discussion on homosexuality as always being bigoted... perhaps bigots do? I have no idea.

What really confuses me is why anyone should be upset by anyone else's sexuality unless it directly affects them?

best wishes

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:29 PM

"What really confuses me is why anyone should be upset by anyone else's sexuality unless it directly affects them?"

Then you must be very easily confused Mp.

I am not upset by anyones sexuality, but I do get upset when a patently unhealthy lifestyle (both physically and psychologically) is promoted in our schools and society, as safe and healthy


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:44 PM

Thank you for your quick reply akenaton :-)

Nopes: not easily confused unless my blonde genes kick in. Oops! Just another stereotype rattling around in my head ;-)

"I am not upset by anyones sexuality, but I do get upset when a patently unhealthy lifestyle (both physically and psychologically) is promoted in our schools and society, as safe and healthy "

You see, I don't actually come across anything patently unhealthy being promoted in our schools. I don't think sexuality is something you can promote. It's a natural trait.

But then many patently unhealthy lifestyles are out there in society, being shown as safe and healthy, and one only needs to see some of the advertising that promotes it. Being uber thin, drinking strong beers, driving cars at breakneck speeds on open roads and in towns, playing loud folk music through earphones on the latest super bass player! Put simply, I am trying to say there are many things out there that are unsafe and unhealthy and that are for many everyday lifestyle CHOICES. Perhaps we could all be better emplyed trying to change some of those things for the better instead of putting down a group of individuals in society who have no choice for who they are.

I fear we may just need to agree to disagree our own feelings on this as I can see you are as likely stuck in your own mould as I am in mine. My position/opinion is as stated and I cannot apologise for that even though it is my choice to hold it.

best wishes once again

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 09:14 PM

"I don't actually come across anything patently unhealthy being promoted in our schools. I don't think sexuality is something you can promote. It's a natural trait."

For some time now, Indonesia has been feeling the negative effects of overpopulation. A friend of mine, who has spent considerable time in Indonesia, says that the Indonesian government has actually been subtly trying to promote homosexual relationships in order to try to diminish the birth rate. My friend tells me that, so far, the effort has failed miserably.

As mauvepink says, gender orientation is a "natural trait." And there is considerable evidence of late that it is genetically determined and not simply a matter of choice.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 09:32 PM

If you learn to hate another group of people and you are a hate monger yourself, then of course it would upset you if our school system is teaching tolerance to others that you don't like ...

Our schools cannot teach enough good things about accepting others as far as I am concerned.   I am not gay, I am a far from it as one can get ... however, I hear this stuff all the time ... like people are somehow afraid of others with different lifestyles ... last I looked one does not "Catch gay" if that is what you are worried about ...

And somehow, gay people are the cause of moral decay in this nation.
another lie that is so stupid that it would take 1000 years to respond. People all people, are either good people, or bad people and their sex drive has nothing to do with it.   Good or bad lays in the heart of a person.   

Gay people are not Christians, another absolute stupid statement. I wish I had the faith of some of the gay people I know.   How they were made by God has nothing to do with their love for God ...

I can't talk anymore ... I am feeding trolls ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Simon G
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:02 PM

Let try another tack here.

I'm just wondering why a legislative proposal in Uganda which doesn't even come from the government is news and yet Saudia Arabia already has much more draconian legislation in place and not a peep about it. On the same vain there is an assumption running through this thread that a bunch of non-descript white guys (Ok so we don't know the Americans are white, but I bet they are in most peoples heads) can influence the government of Uganda. Do a smell the stench of rascism here?

Like most sub-saharan countries Uganda is barely hanging on by its finger nails under the pressure of our trade policy, our lack of help with AIDS, our raping the country of their natural resources, our introduction of corrupt practices. We in the West need to start playing fair with Uganda, actually we need to start being generous with them. Perhaps then they won't be tempted to pick on minorites, for picking on minorities is a symptom. Its a symptom of a society under severe pressure. Stacking up the pressure on this issue, global warming and the like simply make the problem worse.

Just remember we stacked up the pressure on German in the 1920s and we all know what the result was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM

Well, all I can say is the facts are there that the C Street politicians in The Family have influenced some Uganda politicians to join The Family. The facts are there, no assumptions, and that is behind this proposal of a law in Uganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:26 PM

A good report on the details leading up to this Uganda proposal are on the Rachel Maddow program tonight on MSNBC. The video of that program will not be available until tomorrow. It involves the move under George Bush to change the ABC, (abstinence, be faithful, condoms) program that was working in Uganda to control aids to an Abstinence program, excluding condoms. She covers the history of funds coming from the USA, leading up to this current situation, quite well in her program tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:58 PM

Good gracious. All along in this thread I had been wishing for some hard evidence of the Family's hand in this and I didn't find it. I followed the link(s)- the Examiner article that was referenced is pure d baloney without more credibility than Beck at his finest.

True, it appears that several Ugandan politician belong to the Family and that they are active in espousing the stupid law but that does in no way mean that the Family itself is involved or even agrees.

I am embarrassed that Mudcatters are this gullible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:15 AM

There was an NPR interview in November regarding the connection. The Family also has other names, including "The Fellowship".

link to NPR transcript


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:50 AM

Well, now, that was harsh. I really meant to say that I was surprised that we took the story at face value. If I was embarrassed as well that had more to do with me than with anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:35 AM

""I am not upset by anyones sexuality, but I do get upset when a patently unhealthy lifestyle (both physically and psychologically) is promoted in our schools and society, as safe and healthy""

Another blatant piece of agenda driven misinformation from the king of the misinformed.

Our schools do not "promote" homosexuality as normal, or in fact as abnormal. They inform and educate as to its existence, in exactly the way that they inform and educate as to the existence of the outside world, its cultures, religions, and moral perceptives, without ""promoting" acceptance or adherence to any of them.

No matter how many times you drag this particular red herring across the trail, you will not make your central premise valid.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:24 AM

"Do a smell the stench of rascism here?...."
Not necessarily Simon.... the west can be very forgiving (or silent) towards the human rights issues of a country which is the major oil supplier to the Western World - oilism maybe!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:50 AM

If there is a God, why did he play that dirty trick on his Chosen People, telling them to turn left when they reached the other side after he had parted the Red Sea for them? If only he had told them to turn right instead, they would have all that oil now, wouldn't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:26 AM

Thanks Ake.

I took issue with 2 comments.

1. "Have you actually read the CDC homosexual promiscuity figures?"

Neither of your links contains either the word "promiscuity" or the word "promiscuous"

2. "Child abuse....81% to 19%?"

Neither of your liinks says anything about homosexuality in relation to child abuse.

Both claims remain unsubstantiated slander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:36 AM

Ebbie:"I am embarrassed that Mudcatters are this gullible."

Embarrassed??

Well Ebs, I have to agree with you on this one....I'm amazed, myself.
A lot of them act like a lynch mob, just looking for anyone ..especially anyone who displays 'reason'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:40 AM

Oh yes and Ake,

You never answered my question -

"Child abuse....81% to 19%?"

81% 0f what and 19% of what?

What is this ratio?

Where does it come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:21 AM

Proof of evolution...

This thread....

It has gone from questioning the antics of some fundamentalist bigots in influencing a government all the way to questioning the statistics on homosexuality itself.

Perhaps a thread to allow people to use statistics to back up their prejudice or otherwise about Gay lifestyles would be a better place to have that discussion.

I am far more interested in how a religious faith based on love and understanding (as claimed) can be interpreted to hate a chosen lifestyle? To the point of trying to get in Africa what they can't get in The USA! (Mind you, many states do execute prisoners, so I do accept the term "civilised" may mean something different either side of the pond....)

There are also those who set out to say that if you disagree with their faith, you are the usual suspects, setting out to put religion down.

Yup, guilty as charged! If you can't win an argument with facts, don't try to win by questioning people's right to say the Emperor has no clothes, (or big white beard....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:53 AM

Of the 53 Commonwealth member states, over 40 still criminalise same-sex relations, mostly under anti-gay laws that were originally imposed by the British government in the nineteenth century, during the period of colonial rule.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:17 AM

"It has gone from questioning the antics of some fundamentalist bigots in influencing a government all the way to questioning the statistics on homosexuality itself."

This is a phenomenon which I have also observed on other threads that you may need to get used to.

"Perhaps a thread to allow people to use statistics to back up their prejudice or otherwise about Gay lifestyles would be a better place to have that discussion."

I have learned that such an expectation is unrealistic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:39 AM

Glad somebody thinks it is unrealistic. Judging by some of the posts, it would appear otherwise.

ToeRag starts to make a good point about Commonwealth countries having anti Gay laws that started with Colonial penal codes. However, I wouldn't go as far as to blame Great Britain for their retention.

We taught the rest of the world how to divide and conquer, the benefits of winning arguments by tying people to the mouths of cannons and how to increase productivity with bullwhips. It was a popular form of government, not just us...

Mind you, if we were a less interfering nation and more benevolent, the Irish song tradition would have a gaping hole in it's heritage.....

Pip Pip


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 09:05 AM

"oilism" = great term!

That could be a subject in itself, as to how many countries turn a blind eye to certain 'allies' who have oil and a terrible human rights record, while deposing other nations who, while certainly not innocent of human rights crime, are very much less involved in the oil politics 'game'.

In reality it matters not a jot WHO is killing and putting down people for being different than the majority population: they are killing under some banner or other that appears to add legitimacy to the act. It's still wrong.

I would like to think that teaching tolerance - and, even better than that, ACCEPTANCE - is the proper way forward in finally ridding the us of all the various hate messages. Hate can become a lifestyle simply because people choose to follow it's message and principle. It is often based on ignorance and fear (and some of that fear comes from within the person themselves of knowing what they are and not being able to change it). But there are many out there who are good at using that ignorance and fear toward their own agendas. It is comforting to see that most of the posters on this thread, and others like it, do not fall for it :-)

Tolerance, acceptance, love. Three ginormous words that are not easy to live by - and I have had my slippage moments along with most - but at least something we can try and aspire to.

On that note I'll shush!

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Simon G
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:28 AM

I like oilism, but how about oilophilia, its our lust for oil the allows us to blinkered to the nature of the people supplying it. Having said that I don't believe that marching across the globe punishing people for not falling into line with us, isn't the way to go.

It is difficult enough to practice acceptance (as per mauvepink) on an individual level. Jesus was right in that the only way to make it work is to love others as yourself; acceptance on its own doesn't survive long. It may come as a shock to some who tout Jesus's name but he was quoting Leviticus, just a few verses from the verse singled out to support punishment of homosexuals.

We seem to find it next to impossible to act with anything other than self interest when we form into groups, particularly when the group is called a country and has a government. We need to change our expectations of governments, perhaps then governments would act differently. What we have know is the alternative were power is everything and the power of the West is a mighty fist which stamps its self-interest on the rest of the globe. This discussion maybe in a good cause, but from a Ugandan perspective I would suggest it is part of the mighty fist, maybe a very small part.

Better to ask ourselves what we can do for Uganda and its people to allow them to move to a place were this proposed legislation is unacceptable to them. If we loved them as ourselves then they would be in a very different place than they are now.

Simon


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:33 AM

And now we have to consider, how we are to set about seeing this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:53 AM

All good points Simon. And, ToeRag, maybe it has already begun. Maybe we are already seeing it start.

Edmung Burke said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" and so any start toward changing things and highlihgting hate has to be a start. Education has to be a good start as if you can get rid of some of the ignorances surrounding some of the hate and fear then things can change quite rapidly. Sadly that kind of change can also be resited by those with other agendas.

I would like to think we are seeing the start of seeing this better world unfold, slow though the process is...

Maybe I have to believe that or it all becomes so hopeless a picture

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:27 PM

Lox, I linked Christians with homophobes because, if you read the report, it is a Christian movement which is calling for the ultimate legal penalty to be applied to homosexuals. That's homophobic enough for me. What disappoints is that for some of you, the self- assumed tag "Christian" puts them beyond criticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulojORxW5XI

Excerpt video of the program last night with the description of how the Aids legislation with funding under Bush was changed (away from condoms) and how The Family is connected to Uganda activism of US religious conservatives and the issue of Aids (public bonfires of condoms and anti-gay preaching).


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:24 PM

MP....I notice you left smoking out of your list of unhealthy things to do on a wet sunday afternoon! :0)

Now smoking has a marked effect on life expectancy......it shortens life considerably, but not nearly as much as homosexual practice.

We are taking steps to change peoples behaviour regarding smoking, in the interests of smokers health and the health of society at large.
We have even gone so far as to criminalise certain aspects of being a smoker, yet we remain silent about a sexual behaviour which shortens life by around 20 years, increases the incidence of STDs like sphyllis and HIV/AIDS dramatically; and seems linked in studies to the sexual abuse of teenage boys.

Go figure! and best wishes to you...sincerely....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:51 PM

Hello Lox.....I heard there had been a severe outbreak of civility in your area...looks like you've caught it mate :0)
Never mind I'm sure you'll be back to normal before long.

The percentage reference was from the Irish child abuse thread.
There was a similar case in America in 2004 where Catholic priests had been abusing children.
The victims of abuse were 81% boys to 19% girls. Most of these boys were between 11 and 16 years of age.

Would you like me to draw any pictures?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,maivepink
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM

Alas, the fact remains that homosexuality is not a choice. That said, there are lots of health education programmes out there for all sexualties about how to decrease risky practices and practice safe sex. Straight people are not immune to STI's and shorter lives. Just like there are programmes to help people stop smoking.

TBH I totally never thought to include smoking as, here in the UK, advertising is banned and it is not promoted as a lifestyle. Smokers still have a choice however.

I dare say we could debate this whole topic and you will stay where you are with it and I will stay where I am. As I said: I think we need to agree to disagree but I do think I have a certain amount of facts on my side to show it is not down to choice. Risk assesments apply to all sorts of things in life, sexuality being one of them, and believe it or not, more women die in childbirth than do of AIDS/HIV I suspect. And, of course, many children will die before they even get to express a sexuality by not reaching puberty because of all sorts of horrid things. Those are the real iniquities I think we all need to concentrate on. There are enough real iniquities without making some up for groups we may not agree with.

The sad truth too is that most of those children too will have no choice in how they live or die :-(

Trying to make homosexuals into some disease ridden population who all have short life expectancy for their sexuality is as perverse to me as blaming those children for feeling so hungry. However, most would understand hunger pangs (not the same as the starving children of course) and not condemn themselves for feeling it.

Have a good weekend

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

"Trying to make homosexuals into some disease ridden population who all have short life expectancy for their sexuality is as perverse to me as blaming those children for feeling so hungry. However, most would understand hunger pangs (not the same as the starving children of course) and not condemn themselves for feeling it."

I'm afraid I can make no sense of that statement MP, would you rather deny the evidence?

The American homosexuals who wish to "own Aids", have accepted the statistics and are trying to bring about a proper medical study of homosexual practise Aids do not bury their heads in the sand....or clouds. They are brave and clear sighted, although their actions are condemned by "liberals" who's political agenda would be in danger by such action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM

Thanks Ake,

I went to the other thread to find this statistic to which you referred.

The only mention of the figures you put forward was a post written by ... er ... you ...

Interesting aproach.

Make a "factual" claim in two threads, and then if someone askes you for a citation for the claims in one, point them towards the other.

That way you are your own source.

But lets entertain your imaginary stats for a minute anyway just for fun.

It seems that you are saying that amongst Priests and alter boys, and amongst priests teaching in all boys schools, it was apparently found that the majority of the priests were men and the majority of slter boys and pupils at boys schools were boys.

Now I see it!

So homosexuals really are all closet paedophiles ... well I never ...

In the meantime, there remains no evidence that Homosexuals are any more promiscuous than anyone else.

In other words, your whole argument that Homosexuals are more promiscuous and harbour secret lusts for children, rests on the high proportion of Aids casualties amongst homosexuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:31 PM

Oh and by the way, Yes I'd love it if you'd drew a picture - if only out of curiosity to see what kind of picture you might draw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

There's a really fierce echo in here!

Akenaton has tried to peddle all this same misinformation before, on other threads. I'd say he's obsessed with the subject.

Interesting. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM

My My desperation has certainly set in!
Lox the child abuse figures are not mine, but come from the "John Jay Report", a study into "Abuse of minors by priests of the catholic church in the US" by the John Jay College of criminal justice.
Figures are widely available showing much higher numbers of sexual partners among homosexuals than among heterosexuals

Don, you are an idiot....when are you going to stop making that stupid analogy, I have no tendencies towards homosexuality, I dont want to criminalise homosexuals, I dont hate, fear or distrust homosexuals. They have my sympathy, they need help coping with their health problems, they need psychiatric help with their sexual problems...help they will never get from the Mudcat lynch mob.

My motivation for contributing to these threads, is to try to show that the promotion of homosexuality as "just another kind of loving" is dangerously misguided.
The figures are there for all to see....or to ignore...and at the moment they are being ignored by most people, most importantly the "liberal" media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:36 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:53 PM

Hey, Ake! Did you know that authorities used to tell adolescents that masturbation makes you go blind?

Add that to your list of crawling horrors.

Don Firth

P. S. "Idiot," eh? Better be careful using words like that in reference to those with whom you disagree or you are laible to have Little Hawk "tut tut tutting" all over you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 03:33 AM

Don..We are not "disagreeing" over whether or not I have homosexual tendencies; you are simply making a statement which you have no way of substanciating and which is quite untrue.

A personal smear,in other words.

I apologise for the use of the word "idiot", an idiot would not be devious enough to use such tactics.   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:02 AM

"they need psychiatric help with their sexual problems..."
Now there's a trip down Memory Lane - if you want to visit The Stone Age.
The last individual I heard utter this anachronism was an Irish priest - I'm not sure whether he has been named in the current child abuse scandal.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:06 AM

Interesting that there is a lot of support for the kind of ideas that Ake advances ... in the catholic church ...

... ok ... I'll go and find this john jay report to see what it is talking about.

I wonder if it will show that Gays are all closet paedophiles.

I wonder if I should run a book ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:19 AM

Well, it is rather a wild idea, certainly; but, as you say, one has the option of believing it or not, as one likes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:53 AM

Ah yes here we go ...

.. you mean the 2004 report that was commissioned by the US conference of Catholic Bishops as part of a "Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People".

It is quite a comprehensive report indeed.

The catholic church seem to have done a good job.

Oh yes - I nearly forgot.

It at no point asserts in any way that the priests had a preference for boys.

It does state that 81% of the victims were boys.

Abuse tended to happen mainly in the Priests private residence where the vistims parents trusted they would be safe.

Ake, do you know what children Priests have contact with?

they have contact with Altar Servers, school pupils and youth club attendees.

Do you know how many Altar servers are Girls?

I'll tell you - until 1994 Girls were not allowed to serve at the altar.

And as Smokey pointed out in another thread, girls tend to be mentored and taught by nuns and their activities tend to be run by nuns.

So who is most likely to end up in the circumstances described in the john jay report - Girls or boys?

Who do paedophile priests have access to?


Shall I draw you a picture?


Its like doing the pepsi challenge when there's only pepsi available.

You actually end up not knowing anything about peoples preference.


And your assertions and slander that all homosexuals are more promiscuous than anyone else and that they are all closet paedophiles remain unsubstantiated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM

A far-ranging study of homosexual men published in 1978 revealed that 75 percent of self-identified, white, gay men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250- 499; 15 percent claimed 500-999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners. By 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, homosexual men were reportedly curtailing promiscuity, but not by much. Instead of more than 6 partners per month in 1982, the average non-monogamous respondent in San Francisco reported having about 4 partners per month in 1984.
Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men. But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men. Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men. "

The Health Risks of Gay Sex
JOHN R. DIGGS, JR., M.D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:28 AM

""Lox, I linked Christians with homophobes because, if you read the report, it is a Christian movement which is calling for the ultimate legal penalty to be applied to homosexuals. That's homophobic enough for me. What disappoints is that for some of you, the self- assumed tag "Christian" puts them beyond criticism.""

I think you miss the point Paul. Nobody here is actually defending these nutjobs. What you have is the usual knee jerk reactions of a few on both sides.

1. You have the few who seize every opportunity to discredit a belief system which posits the existence of God

2. You have the few who see every comment about any religious sect, as an attack on religion per se.

Two opposing schools of thought which, based on their individual false premises, go to war on practically every thread where any mention is made of religion.

IMHO, the important fact about the "Family" is that, no matter what they choose to call themselves, they are about as far removed from "Christian" as it is possible to be.

Therefor, anyone attacking their aims and objectives is emphatically NOT attacking either Christianity, or religious faith (believers please note).

On the other side of the coin, those who do not believe in a deity, should take a step back, and re-examine their stance on religion.

There is as much proof of the non-existence, as there is of the existence, of GOD!..........Precisely none!

Neither side can ever prove their case, so instead of constantly reiterating "THERE IS NO GOD", it might be more respectful of others' feelings to say "I don't believe in God".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM

I have heard you say so before, but cannot believe it; at any rate, it will not be so in my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:56 AM

For some reason I have a skepticism over the figure for lesbian women having relationships with men. I am certainly not saying it never happens, no less than gay men having relationships with women, but I would tend to put them in a bisexuality area than full lesbian. Some women only 'find out' (finally admit) later in life they are 'true' lesbian after many failed and even abusive relatinships with men (from personal experience not anything I have stats for).

And, again, some sexuality is fluid and changes as we go through life. We are what we are at the time but will we be the same at any time in the future? For sure there is research in the whole area about sexuality, it's spectrum and where we as individulas sit on the continuum at any one time. On average women appear to be more fluid than men (but it could be that is women are more open and not as stressed about theior sexuality as many men). Kinsey found a great deal of fluidity within genders, ages and sexualities.

That some lesbians have and do have relationships with men makes them no less lesbian. Ultimately it is about loving women, not hating men.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM

Eteetera, eteetera, eteetera; what an extraordinary omnium-gatherum ! this is the box in question,I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 10:05 AM

===There is as much proof of the non-existence, as there is of the existence, of GOD!..........Precisely none!===

Brilliant, Wyzywig!

So I think I shall take to the worship of the 37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean — there is, according to your philosophically unchallengeable postulation above, no proof of Their non-existence either. Anyone care to join me? — I bet we could get Lottery Money to build a Temple dedicated to Their worship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 11:51 AM

(sorry for the blank post. I have no idea how that happened. Could it be removed please)

I think what Don(Wyziwyg) is describing is not "his own philosophically unchallengeable postulation" but the general idea of Agnosticism a term forst coined by Thomas Henry Huxley. Many people who are not athetists or theists are agnostics. It is basically saying there is no proof tangible proof there is a God than it is that there is tangible proof for a God. It does not necessarily mean you have no belief but that you have an open mind to the idea until proof shows itself.

I myself am intellectually skepitical about the existence of God BUT also emotionally spiritual so agnosticism helps me allow for the possibility of a God without me being atheistic. Do you get my meaning?

It could well be that there is/is not physical proof of the 37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean, and so that can be tested, but if that is not the case agnosticism can be invoked for many things. I thought Don(Wyziwyg)'s explanation was acceptable as a skeptic.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 12:03 PM

===37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean, and so that can be tested, ===

oh, no, mp, be assured — they are even more shy & harder to catch than Nessy... or God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM

Something is greater if it exists than if it doesn't.If God is the greatest thing imaginable, he must exist. I may paint an imaginary masterpiece, but that only means i imagine that i paint a masterpiece, in fact, since it does not exist, it is no better than my actually existing 'inferior'paintings. A real masterpiece must always be better than an imaginary one!
    Note from Joe Offer: this appears to be a quote from St. Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109) - see here (click)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:05 PM

Are ideas real? Yes. They are very real. They are not physical, but they are real. If you don't think so, take note of what power an idea can have, and how it can change the world.

You cannot find "tangible" proof for either God...or an idea...or a movement of imagination that occurs in the mind...but just because something is not tangible does not mean it isn't real.

Non-tangible things such as ideas and thoughts formed in someone's imagination can have real effect...effect that is soon seen in the world of the tangible, because thoughts affect actions and they also affect one's physical health and well-being over a period of time.

Consciousness rules our reality. It is the crucial factor in experiencing reality. Without consciousness we would not even be aware of anything physical, and the world we experience...for us...would vanish, to all intents and purposes.

And that is exactly what happens for you when you become unconscious. The world as you knew it vanishes. If you remain permanently unconscious, then the world...for you...has ceased to exist, as has life itself.

Consciousness isn't tangible either. But it is real. God, if there is a God, is not to be found in what is tangible, but in the realm of consciousness.

Without consciousness, you could not presently be reading this post...and finding something in it to disagree with! ;-) Consciousness is what you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM

"If God is the greatest thing imaginable, he must exist."
ToeRag, I really don't know for sure where you're going. Are you setting that out as as actual evidence for the existence of God?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:19 PM

Little Hawk...

that is so eloquent and beautifully put. It also explains wonderment and hope and, if not, it sure feels like it does

Thank you

:-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM

Ake:
Don..We are not "disagreeing" over whether or not I have homosexual tendencies; you are simply making a statement which you have no way of substanciating and which is quite untrue.

A personal smear,in other words.

I apologise for the use of the word "idiot", an idiot would not be devious enough to use such tactics.   :0)
Ake, I didn't say anything about you being a homosexual.

The disagreement I referred to is about your erroneous contention that homosexual men are the source of the HIV/AIDS virus, and if they were somehow restrained, HIV/AIDS would simply go away – and that homosexuality equals pedophilia.

All I said was that judging from your vociferous presence on the California Proposition 8 (anti-gay marriage) thread, and then again here, with the same ferocity (not to mention cobbled statistics), you seem to be obsessed with the subject.

You put the rest together yourself!   (Sort of a self smear).

Getting more interesting all the time.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:30 PM

You're welcome. ;-)

This is why religions (at their deeper level) are essentially concerned mainly with consciousness, and how to manage one's consciousness in the most positive, harmonious, and effective fashion. That is the crux of all the Asian religions and philosophies such as Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, and the Yogic disciplines. It is also the crux of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam...at their deeper levels of understanding.

(On the more surface levels one sees rituals, traditional forms, rules and regulations, hierarchies, etc...but those are the more superficial aspects of religion.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM

frogprince - Toe Rag's statement is an interesting one. It could mean a number of things.

What does "the greatest thing imaginable" mean? It could mean different things to different people. One person might see it as the largest single physical object we can imagine...in which case, it could be a huge star...or it could be the whole Universe (a collection of objects).

Another might see it as bigger than the observable Universe.

Another might see it as "all that is" (which would include, theoretically, not just the observable Universe, but all other dimensions and universes, all thoughts, all energies, etc).

Some religions and philosophies do see God as "all that is". If that's the way you see it, then no one can deny the existence of all that is, can they? It's self-evident.

So it depends on how you define "God".


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 02:56 PM

Well you're not often right Don, but I'm afraid you are wrong again.

You have repeatedly on this and other threads alluded that my interest in this subject is related to my sexual orientation.....something you know absolutely nothing about.
On the various threads concerning, homosexual "marriage", homosexual fostering, and homosexual child abuse you have been very active, but unfortunately contributed nothing of any value.

Both yourself and Lox insist that these priests raped and abused young boys and young adult males because there were no girls available.....nothing to do with homosexuality you say....yea right!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM

Ake, whether I have contributed anything value to these threads or not is something that, with your locked-and-bolted mind, you are not comepetent to determine. I'll let others judge that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM

The absence (or scarcity) of available women can definitely contribute to a prevalence of homosexual behaviour among a group of men. There's plenty of historical evidence of that in prisons and on ships during the age of sail. Sex-starved men who are short of the possibility of female company will sometimes fix their attentions on other men (typically younger males who may superficially appear a bit more "effeminate", in that they have less body hair, more delicate features, etc). If so, does it really indicate that the men engaging in such activities are intrinsically homosexual? Or does it rather indicate that they are damned horny, and looking for some kind of outlet wherever they might find it?

Once indulged in, of course, it could become a regular habit. That tends to happen with various types of sexual acts.

There's an emotional basis to sex, and there's a purely physical basis. Both would play a significant part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:10 PM

"Both yourself and Lox insist that these priests raped and abused young boys and young adult males because there were no girls available"

No, they did it because they are paedophiles.

And I 've never said anything about adult males.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:17 PM

Keith,

As I am guessing you don't own books about homosexual promiscuity, would you mind providing a link to the stats you have provided.

They look decidedly dodgy to me.

The first link I found, (on a christian website) had this to say.

"According to the researchers, 42.9 percent of homosexual men in Chicago's Shoreland area have had more than 60 sexual partners, while an additional 18.4 percent have had between 31 and 60 partners. All total, 61.3 percent of the area's homosexual men have had more than 30 partners, and 87.8 percent have had more than 15, the research found."

This doesn't sound that different to the numbers you would find in any british nightclub.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM

Oh .. hnag on ... it's ok keith ... I've found it.

You forgot to include that John R Diggs MD said all this in an article that he wrote for the following website.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html

no bias there then.

Furthermore, he does not say what study he is referring to or where his claims can be verified.

In other words, he has merely given an unsubstantiated opinion.

Unsubstantiated opinions do not serve as evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:28 PM

I really take issue with the information in the excerpt posted by Keith A of Hertford at 05 Dec 09 - 07:49 a.m. The first statistics quoted are from 1978, and then again in 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, at which time the rate of promiscuity had dropped significantly. That was twenty-five years ago, and a lot of changes can happen in that much time—especially when the individuals involved realize that their very lives may be at stake.

As Samuel Johnson wrote, "Nothing concentrates one's mind so much as the realization that one is going to be hanged in the morning!"

It is not just the certainty of imminent death, it is also the distinct possibility of dying of a lingering and debilitating illness that has no cure that can cause one to change one's behavior quite drastically. I am acquainted with a number of homosexual male couples—committed couples—who, a few of the men admit, had led pretty promiscuous lives until AIDS became rampant, and who then sought a stable, safe relationship with one person, which they also found far more emotionally satisfying.

This is one of the factors involved in the current push for legal recognition of such same-sex relationships.

Both Ake and GfS are vociferously opposed to legal recognition of such relationships and cite the spread of HIV/AIDS as the reason for their opposition (along with the specter of "perversion"), apparently unable or unwilling to acknowledge the obvious:   Such recognition would encourage stable, "monogamous" relationships by granting the legal "perks" that heterosexual married couples have and cut down on promiscuity and the possible spread of HIV/AIDS.

You'd think that if one were genuinely concerned with reducing the spread of disease, one would favor any measure which offers the possibility of doing so.

As to the canard that gender orientation is a matter of choice, that has long since wound up in the waste basket. No competent psychiatrist holds with that anymore.

Although the actual gene may not have been found yet, it is patently obvious that there is a genetic factor involved in gender orientation. It may be that the gene is being looked for in the wrong place. It is quite possible that the crucial gene (or combination of genes) is carried by the mother of a male who grows up to be homosexual. All fetuses start out as female, and those destined to be male (with the Y chromosome) need to receive an infusion of the necessary hormones at the appropriate time in the fetus's development. If the mother does not produce the necessary hormones at the appropriate time, or if the production of the hormones is insufficient, the child is born with a male body (the Y chromosome), but with some of the characteristics—including gender orientation—of a female.

Now—let's hear that chorus of howls and squawks from Ake and GfS.

Don Firth

P. S. And lest Ake or someone pounces on my mention that I know a number of homosexual male couples and tries to make some kind of hay out of it, I know them because my wife of thirty-two years and I belong to a small, inner city church that is a signatory of the "Affirmation of Welcome" (scroll down), and as a result of the welcoming, accepting, and non-prejudicial spirit of the church, a number of gay people have gravitated to it. The congregation numbers around 250, about ten or twelve percent of whom (men and women) are gay. And the pastor has performed at least four marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples (whether the law recognizes them or not). One of the members of a committed same-sex couple is a fine writer and attends the writers' group that meets at Barbara's and my apartment once a month for mutual comment and critique of each other's writing. We know he and his partner quite well.

P. P. S. By the way, Washington State Initiative 71, upholding the law recently passed by the Washington State Legislature, recognizing same-sex domestic partnerships, unlike California's Proposition 8, was passed by the voters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM

Central's Affirmation of Welcome
We affirm with the apostle Paul that in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female" (Galatians 3:28). Christ has made us one.

As a community of God striving to be inclusive and open to diversity, we, the members of Central Lutheran Church, welcome all people to join us as we struggle to better understand the mysteries of God's teaching and purposes for us. Although our world can seem to be a place of alienation and brokenness, Christ calls us to reconciliation and wholeness. We are challenged tb Christ to care for, to love, to understand and to listen to each other, regardless of our race, age, gender, marital status, physical and mental abilities, sexual/affectional orientation, national origin, or economic status. We celebrate the special gifts that each has to bring!

That is well worth posting as a whole piece in my opinion. Even as an agnostic it warms me immensely and I just love totally the idea of "sexual/affectional orientation" as covering ideas of sexuality. That is twice today I have been thrilled to read someone else's post on this thread.

There is great hope for the future. Yes, indeed, it has already started :-)

Thank you for pointing the affirmation out

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM

"Sex-starved men who are short of the possibility of female company will sometimes fix their attentions on other men (typically younger males who may superficially appear a bit more "effeminate", in that they have less body hair, more delicate features, etc). If so, does it really indicate that the men engaging in such activities are intrinsically homosexual?"

Not according to Lox n' Don, LH. Now if these priests were to start writing about the dangers and problems associated with homosexuality on Mudcat, that would be a sure sign that they were "on side"!! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:46 PM

By the way Don, the figures state that most homosexuals are not interested in "marriage", the take up rate being very low; and that the average length of time in a homosexual union is from 18 to 24 months....this compares very unfavourably with heterosexual union or marriage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 05:55 PM

Oh, yeah? WHOSE figures?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Go look for them, even Lox is becoming computer literate so it shouldn't take you too long to get the hang of it.

Seriously Don, they are all over the net.
first one which came up


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:56 PM

"Male-to-male sexual contact accounted for 53% (28,700) of estimated new HIV infections in 2006. CDC's historical trend analysis indicates that HIV incidence has been increasing steadily among gay and bisexual men since the early 1990s, confirming a trend suggested by other data showing increases in risk behavior, sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), and HIV diagnoses in this population."

These figures are from CDC would one of you dreamers like to explain why this nice safe healthy lifestyle produces these figures?

This question is the major reason that these threads exist, not really much to do with biblical teaching
BTW the figure of 53% is rather conservative, I have seen others up to 71%


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM

"HIV risk factor: sexual orientation
In the United States, the group with the highest rate of HIV infection is men who have sex with men (CDC, 2005). This group has the highest rates of unprotected anal sex, which is a behavioral risk factor for HIV transmission. In most regions of the world, however, the group with the highest rates of HIV is people who have heterosexual intercourse."

from


http://www.apositivelife.com/forasos/demographic-risk-factors-for-hiv.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:11 PM

When the percentage of homosexuals in the population 2-3% is taken into account, the figures become horrific.

New infections are falling worldwide, except within the homosexual population.
Why does anal sex between men and women not produce these results?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM

"Male-to-male sexual contact accounted for 53% (28,700) of estimated new HIV infections in 2006...."

Hmmmm... maybe if same sex civil union was legal and TOLERATED, such relationships would last longer and reduce the spread of aids?

After all, if it's just the gays spreading aids, something is fucking wrong. Go figure.

What about a sexual ID card? Ya wanna fuck someone, ya gotta show em yer card. Straight, gay or bi. Bi-curious could be a sub-classification, but when you make up yer mind, ya gotta get a new card. And if you change yer mind and ya wanna get a new card, ya gotta take an aids test.

Hey! I got an idea. Ya gotta get a new card every so often and you gotta pass the test! A whole new government department! And, since just about everybody wants to fuck, the revenue would be astronomic even with low fees.

I am an idea man!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:26 PM

The figures are horrific regardless of whether the contact is homosexual or heterosexual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:38 PM

Ake, I seem to be more computer—and internet—literate than you are.

The "first one that came up" is the Family Research Council, a conservative, Christian right group and lobbying organization. It was formed in the United States by James Dobson in 1981 and incorporated in 1983. The group was designed to be a lobbying force for conservative legislation on Capitol Hill. In the late 1980s, the group officially became a division of Dobson's main organization, Focus on the Family, but after an administrative separation, FRC officially became an independent entity in 1992. Its function is to promote what it considers to be traditional family values.

The FRC promotes socially conservative views on many issues, including divorce, homosexuality, and abortion.

Your second link is to a site that hides its identification, but is funded by two American pharmaceutical companies, GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer.

You seem to be trying to push your notion that the AIDS virus is spontaneously generated by anal intercourse between two males. Which is to say the AIDS virus suddenly exists as a result of the act where it did not exist before!

The possibility of such a thing as "spontaneous generation" is a Medieval belief that was finally laid to rest by Louis Pasteur in 1859.

Sure, Ake, this stuff is all over the internet. You can also find passionate and powerful sounding arguments for the prophecies of Nostradamus, the End of the World on December 21, 2012 (12/21/12), that the moon landings never happened, they were all cobbled together at the Disney Studios, and that the earth is a) flat, and b) round, but hollow.

And you posted a lot of your "statistics," carefully selected and edited by you on the other thread (Prop 8). You're just recycle your trash.

Don't waste peoples' time with this crap!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM

Indeed, I did not express myself very well in my last post.

What I meant was, that when population percentages are taken into account, the incidence of hiv/aids and other STDs is massivly larger among homosexuals than heterosexuals.

If this is the case, why are we still promoting homosexuality as "safe and healthy", why are we fostering our children into such a lifestyle? Why are we attempting to normalise this lifestyle by redefining marriage to accomodate it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:58 PM

Don, we cross posted. Would you like to explain the CDC figures?

The website I linked to was as you say, but the figures and articles on that website, were from emminent and independent doctors and health experts, including some from CDC,


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM

Achey... "safe and healthy".... it is safe as long as neither has aids. Same for the hets. You gotta think without the box.

Oh, yeah... you can't see out of the box you are in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

If this is the case, why are we still promoting homosexuality as "safe and healthy", why are we fostering our children into such a lifestyle? Why are we attempting to normalise this lifestyle by redefining marriage to accomodate it?

No one is promoting homosexuality as "safe and healthy" as an alternative to heterosexual sex, which is what you seem to by implying (that wouldn't sell, anyway). And with proper precautions, it is just as "safe and healthy" as heterosexual sex (even if it disgusts you, which is what this is all about). And who is fostering our children into such a lifestyle? No one I've ever heard of. And no one is trying to "redefine" marriage. "Include" does not mean "redefine."

Plots and conspiracies. It's gotta be those Liberals!!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:08 PM

"You seem to be trying to push your notion that the AIDS virus is spontaneously generated by anal intercourse between two males. Which is to say the AIDS virus suddenly exists as a result of the act where it did not exist before!"

I know no more about "spontanious generation" than I do about why these homosexual/hiv figures should be as they are, please dont put words in my mouth.
I would appreciate an explanation of these statistics from a supporter of homosexual practice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM

"I would appreciate an explanation of these statistics from a supporter of homosexual practice. "

Most people here neither support nor detract from sexual practices as far as I can see. (Practice makes perfect.)

If the issue is AIDS/HIV, then of course 'lifestyle' will come into it. If the issue is homosexuality, than that's another thing. Hence, I will hereby declare that I am not in favour of AIDS/HIV or any other infectious disease whether it is transmitted sexually or otherwise.

I'm not homosexual, so basically that's got nothing to do with me. These arguments have been addressed ad nauseum, repeatedly, over and over again. Not one thing has changed. People aren't wearing condoms, HIV/AIDS rates are still too high and the heterosexual population is as at fault as the homosexual population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 11:22 PM

Mauvepink:"...Alas, the fact remains that homosexuality is not a choice. That said,......."

No, it's something that people get into because a part of them did not develop and mature naturally, while they were 'emotionally focused' on something in their formative youth, that they could not let go of. USUALLY, resentment, often unforgiveness for a perceived wrong, by that parent, of the same gender as themselves, or an idealistic calling...and instead of overcoming it, coupled with feelings of inadequacies, they turn to others of the same sex, to deal with their sex drives.


Like it or not, that is the truth. When politicized, it becomes a 'civil rights' issue, instead of a mental health issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 11:46 PM

People become homosexual because they were focused on an idealistic calling during their formative youth, and they haven't overcome the effects of that??????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:32 AM

Often not. If one is focused, to form an 'attitude', that one obsesses on, a lot goes by, that they miss, in maturing, while emotionally focused.
True Story!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:38 AM

In answer to GfS's latest spasm about same-sex orientation be a matter of choice, I reiterate a paragraph from one of my posts above:
"Although the actual gene may not have been found yet, it is patently obvious that there is a genetic factor involved in gender orientation. It may be that the gene is being looked for in the wrong place. It is quite possible that the crucial gene (or combination of genes) is carried by the mother of a male who grows up to be homosexual. All fetuses start out as female, and those destined to be male (with the Y chromosome) need to receive an infusion of the necessary hormones at the appropriate time in the fetus's development. If the mother does not produce the necessary hormones at the appropriate time, or if the production of the hormones is insufficient, the child is born with a male body (the Y chromosome), but with some of the characteristics—including gender orientation—of a female."
Boys who turn out to be gay often tend to display atypical behavior for boys long before puberty occurs and before they have any knowledge of or interest in sex.

####

Whether you know what it was historically called or not, Ake, "spontaneous generation" is the belief that certain organisms can be generated by non-living matter or by decaying matter. After a pile of garbage sat somewhere for even a brief time, rats and mice, flies and all sorts of other bugs would appear. Somehow it didn't seem to occur to many—including, amazingly enough, Aristotle—that the vermin were attracted to the garbage, not generated by it. They believed that such vermin were spontaneously generated by the garbage.

As cockamamie as this idea was, it was genererally believed until well after the Renaissance (note that Hamlet, feigning madness, cautions Polonius to not let his daughter walk in the sun, for ". . . if the sun breed maggots in a dead dog. . . ."), and even though many "natural historians" (early scientists) called it into question, it was finally shown, once and for all, to be bogus in 1859 by Louis Pasteur.

If two men who do not carry the AIDS virus have homosexual relations, neither of them will contract AIDS as a result. That simply does not happen.

Ake, whether you know what the concept is called or not, your constant harping on statistics that purport to indicate that homosexual activity by itself can bring about the sudden appearance of the AIDS virus is obviously what you mean to convey.

And it is BOGUS, Ake, and your know it. Even if you don't know what to call it.

Join the 21st century.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:49 AM

Don First:'"Although the actual gene may not have been found yet, ....."

Enough said!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:42 AM

Don Froth is taking an unusually long time responding. He must be wearing out his computer looking for that gene. He'll come up with a 'study', probably funded by ACORN....maybe even Al Gore.

But the FACT(remember those??), That which determines gender is found in the genetic code. Simply, 'not believing' the FACTS based on a political outlook, gives you NO SUBSTANTIATION to base your 'premise' on. Then you insist you are 'right', insult those who disagree with you, and call them 'bigots' and 'homophobic'.

You, by nature of these tactics, insult the intelligence of any sound thinking person...including yourself!!(But you being a 'sound thinking person' is unsubstantiated too).

I don't feel like 'debating' this with you any longer! See professional help!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:15 AM

I don't understand your point Don.
My stance has always been that the homosexual lifestyle causes massive rates of hiv/aids in those who adhere to it.
It is therefore unsafe and unhealthy

About why hiv aids starts in two healthy people I do not know, but apparently new outbreaks usually start among the homosexual community.
The important bit is that homosexual practice unsafe and unhealthy


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:53 AM

There is something deeply offensive in witnessing two homophobes (one recently 'out-of-the- closet, the other not yet having the bottle to own up to being one) pontificating and moralising about the sexual orientation (whether chosen or genetic) of others. Mind your own ******* business.
No doubt these two boyos would describe themselves as 'Christians' In Ireland we've had a bellyful of homophobic 'Christians' who have raped and abused their way through generations of our children, while at the same time pontificating on the 'sin' of homosexuality.
They even managed to make hetrosexual sex something dirty and unpleasant in the eyes of their congregations - a'necessary evil'!
In the end there is little to choose between racism and homophobia; both are judgemental, oppressive and dangerous, and both ruin lives.
I suggest it is this pair who need to 'get help', or maybe a humanity transplant.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:59 AM

Akenaton, If Don wants to believe that AIDS/HIV is not prevalent in the homosexual community, because his political bent says he can't admit that, he won't admit it... no matter what stats you quote from any non partisan, impartial medical source.

If he wants to 'support' the homosexual community, for whatever reason, well, knock yourself out! Nobody on here would call you names, or think ill of you, for doing so. But, really, don't try to convince us that you can mix politics with science and come out with an impartial, accurate anything! That being said, Don is free to believe anything he wants to believe..and he does.

Some on here are blaming Catholics, some blaming the Irish government, some might even get around to blaming the Irish, in general..so what??
I already got called names for saying that in the Catholic clergy, there were SOME 'bad apples'..and to one idiot on here, was reason to call me a bigot!! I think he wanted me to condemn the whole of the Catholic Church, probably because they are not pro homosexual!..Who knows?? Who cares??
You know better, I know better, and others know better. Some people just want to suck their thumbs, and not accept FACTS...and think you are picking on them, because you post them(facts).
As far as the issue of the death penalty for homosexuals, that seems pretty far fetched...unless you are building up a new country, where
the leaders see homosexuality as a destroying factor, such as may be the situation here. Those who are already in a decaying society, will of course, vehemently object. That being said, I personally DON'T SUPPORT the death penalty for homosexuals. But those who do, probably see them as a threat.
What I really see, is that every time the subject is brought up, it gets heated, and the name calling begins, and of course, facts get ignored, and those presenting the facts, are labeled as bigots, haters of 'progress', 'old fashion', religious nuts, etc, etc..
However, in most of my posts, with understanding, I think I've shown more compassion,(one poster even remarked about it on the 'Prop 8' thread), than those who are trying to defend homosexuality...and most all the time, they don't even see it!
...but then, they are the ones who are still trying to justify their existence(homosexuals).
Oh well, it was good to see you on here, trying to reason, with the hostile and unreasonable.....
Regards, GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:01 AM

200!!
Hey, I just read Jim Carrol's post, as we cross posted. A perfect example of what I just posted in my thread!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:17 AM

Guest from Sanity... you wrote "No, it's something that people get into because a part of them did not develop and mature naturally, while they were 'emotionally focused' on something in their formative youth, that they could not let go of. USUALLY, resentment, often unforgiveness for a perceived wrong, by that parent, of the same gender as themselves, or an idealistic calling...and instead of overcoming it, coupled with feelings of inadequacies, they turn to others of the same sex, to deal with their sex drives".

My question to that would be: So all other animals who practice homosexuality also have the mental capacity and psychological abilities to go through this process too? I actually doubt that and I think, of all the studies there have been on behavioural imprinting and the triggers for sexuality, none have come up with empirical evidence to support it.

The 'gay gene' search may not actually turn up a single gene, and it may not even be a consequence of being on a sex chromosome, as it could be the combined effects of several gene groups. Work is ongoing in that area. Most gay people I know, men and women, knew they were gay before they ever had an idea about sexual actions.

One thing I would postulate though is that homosexuality is certainly NOT a mental illness. I, personally, still am of the opinion that the genetic model fits far better not just for human but in other animals too.

Best wishes

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:04 AM

"Hey, I just read Jim Carrol's post, as we cross posted"
Hey, I just cross-posted with one of the homophobic bigots I was writing about - coincidence or what?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:10 AM

""So I think I shall take to the worship of the 37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean — there is, according to your philosophically unchallengeable postulation above, no proof of Their non-existence either. Anyone care to join me? — I bet we could get Lottery Money to build a Temple dedicated to Their worship.""

Smart arse comment missing the points at issue which were:-

1. Those bastards are NOT Christians, nor anything recognisably relating to faith in a deity.

2. Non believers need to stop crapping all over people of faith, because their point of view is JUST ANOTHER BELIEF.

Now go join whatever you like, but don't shit on the human race and call it Christian.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM

I think the world makes sense without God, it's when we bring him/her into it, that the confusion starts. Who is God ,what is God, where is God, should we not perhaps bury God?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:29 AM

It should be obvious that HIV/AIDS are correlated to promiscuity, not homosexuality. Since heterosexuals have the option of legal marriage, they tend to develop toward it. If homosexuals were equally entitled under law to marry, the incidence of HIV/AIDS would probably decline!

ANd I think you will find, if you examine it honestluy, that what most people her "promote" is not homosexuality but tolerance and compassion. Remember those?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:34 AM

MP, there's no real science or logic in GfS's theories. She/He just makes it up as he/she goes along, using pseudo scientific language in an attempt to disguise the nonsense spouted.

You only have to look at the constant repetitive allusions to "evidence" which turns out to be unsubstantiated opinion from anti gay so called scientists, who coincidentally turn out to be intimately involved in fundamentalist right wing "Christian" sects, and are feeding into their prejudices.

Our two resident misfits are the only ones in the army who are marching in step, so they would have us believe, and one of them even has the nerve to cite himself as an evidential authority, giving a link to his own posts on another forum, as a source for the same posts on this one.

That's carrying the circular argument one step too far, and if these two told me it was raining, I'd not believe them without looking out the window.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:54 AM

is Homosexuality a natural phoneme in nature, I think so Homosexuality is widespread in the Animal world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:17 PM

Scientists knew that pluto existed before they saw it through a telescope.

The likelihood in the face of evidence was so strong that finding it was inevitable.

The Gay Gene hasn't been seen through a microscope ... yet.

It won't be too long before it is found.



Ake has established one fact. That Gay men suffer from aids more than any other demographic.

This fact has no bearing on any of his slanderous claims about gay peoples habits or inclinations, and he has yet to provide any other evidence except that provided by Church organizations and right wing political lobby groups. No actual studies or statistics exist to support his view.

The official mudcat hairdryer, useful for making a lot of noise and producing hot air and not much else besides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 02:39 PM

GfS, when someone starts farting around with my name, then I know I've scored big, because getting personally insulting and abusive is all you've got. You're displaying what looks a lot like a temper tantrum.

And if I'm taking a long time responding, it's because I was off-line. Eight hours of sleep, among other things. After all, my life, unlike yours apparently, is not composed entirely of sitting at my computer. I DO have a life in the real world. Besides, I know that trying to set you straight is impossible because your head is made up and all the scientific evidence in the world to the contrary will not change it. You will persist in believing what you WANT to believe.

The operative word in my post above is "MAY" (not have been found). Unlike you, I am trying to be fair and objective. There are geneticists who maintain that they HAVE found the gene, and there are brain researchers who have found that there is a consistent difference in a lobe of the hypothalamus between heterosexual and homosexual men that they maintain must be the result of genetic influence. But not all scientists agree.

So—If I was operating with the kind of "scientific integrity" that you operate with, I would be making the flat, unequivocal statement that the gene HAS been found.

Read the rest of my post, the part about the possible mother's role in fetal development. As I said, they may be looking for the gene in the wrong place.

And Ake—I don't dispute the fact that there is much more HIV/AIDS among homosexual men than among heterosexual men. What I do give the lie to is your insistence that the virus springs up spontaneously with homosexual activity where it did not exist before. You know better. Or if you don't, then you're scientific education has been grossly neglected.

By the way, there IS one group of homosexual men in which the HIV/AIDS virus does not exist:    those who are in committed, monogamous relationships, which they tend to regard as marriages, whether the law recognizes it or not. No. No AIDS there. There's a lesson in that.

Don Firth

P. S. Why do I—why do any of us waste our time arguing with these two (yes, I WILL use the word, since, by its dictionary definition, it is the word that applies) BIGOTS?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:37 PM

Amos.....Nice to hear from you, nearly always the voice of reason.
I agree with your sentiments regarding tolerance and compassion....nicely put sir.

In saying that, we must never blind ourselves to suffering and death in puting these two emotions into practice.....must we tolerate the obscenity of watching thousands of young men suffering a degrading and painful death because our tolerance and compassion for the people involved will not permit us to question the lifestyle which brings such pain and degradation.

Is our compassion and tolerance helping homosexuals to lead longer or more healthy lives? I think not, we simply carry on with the status quo, close our eyes and our minds to the figures and allow young men to die for our political "principles"

Several of the "walking brain dead" have suggested that it is not homosexuality but promiscuity or anal sex which makes the HIV figures so bad.

Do they not realise that in homosexual practice, promiscuity and anal sex go with the territory!...Risk taking also goes with the territory; and tho' I know only a little of psychiatry, I have read that risk taking and promiscuity are also symptoms of manic depression.

The homosexual gene will never be found, because it does not exist and if the "liberals" cant find it, they will invent it.
Why can they not see that a major medical study into homosexuality and HIV/AIDS would be in the interests of homosexuals and society at large.....is it because the results of such a study may not suit their political agenda....even if it were to save millions of lives...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:50 PM

Maybe I should clarify my final paragraph.

"liberals" care more for the political rights of minorities like homosexuals, than in caring for their personal medical wellbeing.

They are perfectly happy to see them...."equal but dead"


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM

Ake, I don't see how your first paragraph in the above post correlates with what Amos says in his most recent post. In case you need one of us walking brain-dead liberals to read it for you, what he is saying is just the opposite of what you keep saying. And, yes, I agree that Amos, as usual, is very much the voice of reason.

Just thought I'd point that disparity out. The rest of your post is just more of your usual inability to reserve judgment in the face of incomplete but ongoing research, along with your thesis that homosexuals need to be marginalized and oppressed for their own good.

Where have we heard that sort of thing before!??

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM

You miss th e point altogether, Ake. Evidently you would like to have some Cloud Chief decree how people may live and what should happen.

Some of us cleave to a different model. Equal rights under the law, and personal responsibility for the consequences.

Your argument, extended, would make the Founding Fathers responsible for revery hurtful thing ever said, because they made alegal principle of free speech. These are two different things, man.

The right to legal blessing does not relieve married people of personal responsibility for how they live their lives. But it DOES, as Don pointed out, tend to reduce the incidence of promiscuous transmission of STDs. Why is that hard to understand? Why do you think homosexuality, by its nature, is any more prone toward promiscuity than heterosexuality? I have seen huge amounts of promiscuity among heteros. I fail to see why you think homosexuals would be any more promiscuous. In fact, given that hetero sexuality is so much more heavily promoted in ads and magazines and such, it would probably be mor einclined to promiscuous behavior.

So I don't think your arguments hold much merit here.

Obviously, given the mechanics involved, homsexual sex will probably include a higher frequency of anal penetration than hetero sex. Not exclusively, of course, but greater. If said homosexuals are in a monogamous relationship, with legal structural support, the chances of this being a transmission vector are greatly reduced. Not increased.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

Still no evidence Ake?

Yawn.


I would like to clarify a point raised concerning a perceived dispute between whether AIDS is a "homosexual thing" or a "promiscuity thing".


In fact, if AIDS in homosexuals were the result of greater promiscuity we would see the same disparity in the numbers of cases of Ghonnorhea Syphilis and Chlamydia.

However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases.

So it isn't promiscuity that makse the difference.

Also, it is fairly obvious to anyone with any vague understanding of science that Sperm + Blood does not equal HIV. HIV is an organism that infects those to whom it has been transmitted.


So what is the reason for the high proportion of cases of AIDS amongst homosexual men?

I am as interested to know as anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:15 PM

Dear me Amos,

The very idea of Ake disapproving of Free Speech!

Are you not aware of how his freedom of speech has been ruthlessly surpressed on the Mudcat by the henchmen of the Liberal Fascist contingent?

Boy - it's a harrowing tale - but he's been strong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:17 PM

"However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases."

That should have read "young women and older teenage girls".


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

"Do they not realise that in homosexual practice, promiscuity and anal sex go with the territory!..."

Do you not realise that not all homosexual men have anal sex? (Did I just feel a jaw drop somewhere?). Anal sex is not the soul preserve of homosexuals either. But whether they do or not is irrelevant because lots of gay men are dying at the hands of violence just because they are who they are. Why not campaign against the violence that ends so many lives early?

HIV/AIDS not only affects gay populations. No more than other STI's do. It is a HUMAN Immunodeficiency Virus Deficiency virus. It's not a "letsonlypickongatpromiscuousmen immunodeficiency virus"... it affects, ot has the potential to affect, all HUMAN BEINGS.

I sometimes wonder if a virus had come about that excluded the gay populations, sexually transmitted, what would all the straight people have done about it? The fact is there is a disease out there affecting straight populations and they seem to be blase about it, in many cases, and do not use safe sex. Gay males are not the only promiscuous humans out there. And, in some countries, it is not homosexuality that is responsible for the high death toll. It's straight sexual practices and the lack of contraception that is abetting the spread and increasing death tolls among men, women and children.

This is not liberalism. I have no political agenda. But I will stand up for the rights of homosexuals, wrongly accused, as much as I will for Christians, wrongly accused, because the damage being done is not by them but by closed thinking (in the least) and hateful propaganda levied at them. As I have said earlier in the thread, there are lots of dangerous, risky and deadly lifestyles that are actually chosen. Why do people not campaign against them and leave people who are doing no harm to anyone alone? I still maintain they have no choice over being homosexual, but if they choose to take risks with their own lives with unsafe sex, like so many straight people do, then that is thier choice and no-one elses.

Why do some so want to blame others all the time instead of putting their own house in order? It truly saddens me.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM

Aids is not a fucking joke Don!
It is deadly serious, especially for people who habitually take sexual risks, indulge in anal sex and lead promiscuous lifestyles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

There's no hope for the world, if you lot are representative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

"Aids is not a fucking joke Don!"

No one said it was, Ake. But you are the one who wants to keep homosexuals promiscuous by denying gays the right to form stable, monogamous relationships.

AIDS is not a fucking joke, Ake!!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:03 PM

Foe fuck sake Amos, you cant have it both ways!

On the one hand your team says "It is not homosexuality, but promiscuity", which causes the horrific homosexual AIDS figures.....then you come along and contend that homosexuals in general, are no more promiscuous than heteros.

You have one big problem Amos....keeping your team on message...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM

Don..... can you not get it into your skull,that the vast majority of homosexuals do not want a stable monogamous relationship?

And in addition to that, the figures I posted earlier say that the average homosexual union lasts only between 1 and 2 years!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

"On the one hand your team says "It is not homosexuality, but promiscuity", which causes the horrific homosexual AIDS figures.....then you come along and contend that homosexuals in general, are no more promiscuous than heteros."

I wish you would pay attention.

You marvel at my apparent newfound computer literacy, yet you seem unable to read or comprehend written English.

But to remind you (as it was oh so long ago) - and I hope no-one minds the cut and paste job.
__________________________________________

"I would like to clarify a point raised concerning a perceived dispute between whether AIDS is a "homosexual thing" or a "promiscuity thing".


In fact, if AIDS in homosexuals were the result of greater promiscuity we would see the same disparity in the numbers of cases of Ghonnorhea Syphilis and Chlamydia.

However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases.

So it isn't promiscuity that makse the difference.

Also, it is fairly obvious to anyone with any vague understanding of science that Sperm + Blood does not equal HIV. HIV is an organism that infects those to whom it has been transmitted.


So what is the reason for the high proportion of cases of AIDS amongst homosexual men?

I am as interested to know as anyone else."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

"Foe fuck sake Amos, you cant have it both ways!"

I think that's a matter for Amos to decide in the privacy of his own home ... ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM

Don..... can you not get it into your skull,that the vast majority of homosexuals do not want a stable monogamous relationship?

According to you, perhaps, but I think all of your "knowledge" (the part you don't make up yourself) comes from reading web sites that support your already formed opinion.

I hear otherwise from real, live people. I'm not afraid to talk frankly with men who are homosexual, and because I don't look at them with prejudice and contempt, they are quite willing to talk frankly with me. Most of them would like very much to have a stable, monogamous relationship with another man. But it's the reactions of other people and their lack of willingness to accept that kind of relationship that makes it extremely difficult to sustain them. Get that? Other peoples' interference!

If there were some sort of legal recognition, or for that matter, recognition by a church willing to do so (such as the one Barbara and I belong to), it would make all the difference in the world; some sorth of social support that would make it easier to withstand the disapproval of the busybodies whose business it is not.

And in addition to that, the figures I posted earlier say that the average homosexual union lasts only between 1 and 2 years!

Recognized same sex unions (whether regarded as legal or not, but recognized, say, by the church my wife and I belong to, or are acknowledged without prejudice by their friends as a couple) tend to be more stable and long-term than many heterosexual marriages.

Barbara had a friend, a boy, from grade school who turned out to be gay. In his mid-twenties, he met another gay man. They bought a house in Southern California, where they are still living. One of them is a college professor (now retired) and the other (Barbara's old school chum) is an expert on English history and American Civil War history. He tutors high school and college students (like kids of movie stars and such) who are not doing well in school. They make a regular trip to England every year, where the college professor is invited to participate in seminars having to do with theater arts. Barbara and I have visited them in California a number of times, and they have also come here to Seattle.

Many heterosexual married couples don't have as stable and loving a relationship as these two do.

Ake, you need to get away from the computer and meet some real people. And instead of being so dogmatic, shut your mouth and open your eyes and ears. And your MIND.

You might be amazed at what you can learn about the real world.

That is, if you are really interested.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

Dogmatic?.....moi??

I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals. Is that being dogmatic?

Your insistance that all is well with the homosexual lifestyle in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is dogmatism!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM

Speaking of meeting real people...I've known at least three openly homosexual men back when I was living in Toronto. One was a musician...an interesting guy who had a long career in the folk-rock field, played in a band backing Dylan once, and we shared a common interest in model aircraft. I don't think he was looking around much for a monogamous relationship. He played the field.

Another guy was living in a rooming house where I rented for awhile. Again, very interesting guy, terrific conversationalist, but I think he was playing the field too as far as I know.

The third guy was an artist, a good friend for many years, and a very bright and amusing character. Again, he seemed to pretty much play the field as far as I could see. He died young of some illness. I don't know if it was AIDS or what it was, but I heard from mutual friends that he had passed away.

I draw no particular conclusions from the above, I'm just recounting my own direct personal acquaintances with friends who were openly homosexual. They didn't try to hide it from anyone, and it didn't create any problems between them and me and the general circle of people I knew at the time.

I've also known a handful of women who were lesbians. Again, it simply wasn't a problem. Not for me, anyway. Maybe for their parents? I can't say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:36 PM

Since the cross-over of SIV to humans, one thing is certain. Stopping homosexuality will not stop the spread of HIV in humans. It's clear that although the 'first' reports of AIDS in North America were amongst gay men, the organism existed long before that in the human population, and not only amongst the homosexual population.

"Four of the earliest known instances of HIV infection are as follows:

A plasma sample taken in 1959 from an adult male living in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo.9
A lymph node sample taken in 1960 from an adult female, also from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. (10)
HIV found in tissue samples from an American teenager who died in St. Louis in 1969. (11)
HIV found in tissue samples from a Norwegian sailor who died around 1976. (12)
A 1998 analysis of the plasma sample from 1959 suggested that HIV-1 was introduced into humans around the 1940s or the early 1950s. (13)

In January 2000, the results of a new study (14) suggested that the first case of HIV-1 infection occurred around 1931 in West Africa. This estimate (which had a 15 year margin of error) was based on a complex computer model of HIV's evolution.

However, a study in 2008 (15) dated the origin of HIV to between 1884 and 1924, much earlier than previous estimates. The researchers compared the viral sequence from 1959 (the oldest known HIV-1 specimen) to the newly discovered sequence from 1960. They found a significant genetic difference between them, demonstrating diversification of HIV-1 occurred long before the AIDS pandemic was recognised."

So, unless the name of the game here is to slam homosexuals, then please deal with the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:43 PM

In the US homosexuals are 50 times more likely to develop Aids than heterosexuals...fact....please explain.....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:48 PM

I respectfully request the medical source of that fact, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM

CDC...read the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:01 PM

I would prefer facts from an organization like CDC or WHO, not places like

www.afec.org/issues/homosexuality/facts.htm

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:02 PM

Nope. Please provide the link or address. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:najCMCXqob0J:www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/aug/09082609.html+homosexuals+more+likely+to+get

Is that the site you quote?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:11 PM

Hell, Ake. The bias in that article just GLOWS.

By Patrick B. Craine

ATLANTA, Georgia, August 24, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - An official with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced the CDC's estimate Monday that in the United States AIDS is fifty times more prevalent among men who have sex with men ('MSM') than the rest of the population. Dr. Amy Lansky revealed this statistic during a plenary session at the 2009 HIV Prevention Conference in Atlanta.

The CDC had already revealed last year that approximately 53% of the estimated 56,300 new HIV cases in 2006 were in homosexual men, with the African American population being particularly affected.

The new statistics, however, estimate the prevalence of HIV/AIDS relative to the homosexual population, which allows comparisons to other groups in the wider population. Because of the difficulty of determining the homosexual population, the CDC had to estimate. Based on a variety of national surveys, they based their statistics on the median estimate that homosexual men constitute 4 percent of the overall male population, reports RH Reality Check.

According to Dr. Lansky, then, based on the 4 percent figure, the CDC estimates that in 2007 there were 692.2 new HIV cases per 100,000 homosexual men - or fifty times more cases than the rest of the population.

While merely an approximation, the CDC's announcement confirms previous statistics and studies that indicate vastly disproportionate occurrence of sex-related diseases in homosexuals. According toa February 2007 study, for example, homosexual men with HIV are 90 times more likely to develop anal cancer than the rest of the population.

Earlier this year, as another example, the Centers for Disease Control released a statistical report indicating that homosexual men made up 65 percent of the reported primary and secondary syphilis cases in 2007. A report from the Public Health Agency of Canada in 2006 revealed that 51 percent of people infected with HIV in the country were homosexual men.

In fact, the statistics on HIV/AIDS led one group, the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center, to state in 2006 that HIV/AIDS is a "gay disease," in a billboard ad campaign geared to reducing rates of HIV infection.

While homosexualists have actively suppressed such statistics in the past and focused on portraying HIV/AIDS as a disease affecting the whole population in an equal fashion, the statistics' increasing undeniability has forced their hand. Rather than admit any inherent problem with homosexual practice itself, however, the apparent prevalence of disease among practicing homosexuals has led them to switch tactics and use these statistics to urge governments and other organizations to increase support to the homosexual communities.

Asking why it has taken so long for the CDC to make its estimate about the high prevalence of AIDS among homosexual men, homosexual activist Dr. Senterfitt chalked it up to 'homophobia'. "Seems clear to me," he says, "that this was at least an indirect effect of the pervasive homophobia still affecting much of government, public policy, media and societal norms in this country."

"We must fight for funding and adequate social investment to end HIV/AIDS wherever it continues to persist and thrive," he argues, "which is almost always where concentrated social injustice also thrives."

Pro-family advocates, on the other hand, maintain that the prevalence of sex-related diseases among homosexuals is clear evidence of the disorder of homosexual practice. For example, in a commentary for LifeSiteNews.com published last year, J. Matt Barber stated, "By recently admitting that 'HIV is a gay disease,' Matt Foreman, outgoing Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, acknowledged what the medical community has known for decades: the homosexual lifestyle is extremely high-risk and often leads to disease and even death."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:25 PM

Ake,

Dr Amy Lansky's figures are about ten years old. I'm not. She points out that there were then 692.2/100,000 NEW cases of HIV in the homosexual population. The further extrapolations in that article come from someone else who, it seems has some sort of axe to grind with the homosexual population. Not a good source, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM

Reality Check.

The Life Site News web site from which that article came is a Christian fundamentalist site devoted to "Life, Family, and Culture." Nuff said.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

Little Hawk, also over the years I have known a number of gay men (musicians, actors, one dancer—generally in the Arts one way or the other ["Oh, goodie!" some might crow. "Stereotypes!"]), who seemed to be generally playing the field, but not any more promiscuously than any other single male (!), and there, as you say, none of them ever came on to me.

But these guys were not dummies, and when and if they had a sexual relationship with another man, they were certain aware of what the risks were, and I know they were smart enough to a) know the other person well enough to be aware of their state of health, and b) even so, take the necessary precautions.

Some years ago I was acquainted with a few gay men who had contracted AIDS, but that was before the outbreak was well under way. None lately that I am aware of.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:33 PM

HIV/AIDS deaths and people living with HIV/AIDS are still most prevalent in Africa. 50% of the people worldwide living with the disease are female. It is and has been a disease most devastating to heterosexual individuals in terms of numbers. To conclude that homosexuals are largely responsible for the spread of the disease is simply ignorant. The numbers say otherwise.   



AIDS statistics around the world


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:41 PM

I'm sure the overall situation has changed a great deal, Don, since everyone (heterosexuals included) is well aware that the risks of unprotected promiscuity have gone way up. Of those guys I mentioned, I knew one of them in the 70s and the other two in the early 80s.

One of them did proposition me one time...but he didn't "come on" to me in any aggressive way, he just asked if I was interesting in "going out with him", so to speak. That was the artist guy in the 70s. I was quite surprised, because I hadn't realized he was gay. He said, "Well, I thought maybe you were, because you haven't had a girlfriend that I know of in the last couple of years that I've known you..."

I laughed. "Yeah, that's true," I said, "but it's not because I'm gay, it's because I'm simply hopeless at finding myself a girlfriend. I'm usually in love with some female who isn't with me, and she's always interested in someone else. I could hardly BE more desirous of women than I already am..."

So that was that. We continued having our coffee and talking about some other stuff instead. That was Phil. He was a pretty cool guy, and a totally wacky artist, but he had talent.

I don't think I know anyone at present who has contracted AIDS. If so, I haven't heard a word about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:48 PM

I want to clarify something I said earlier, that all those guys were openly gay. Phil had "come out" not too long before he had that conversation with me, but I hadn't heard anything about it, so I was surprised when he propositioned me. He had been living with a Trinidadian woman not too long before that, so I simply assumed he was heterosexual. He was, in fact, bisexual...but his later preference seemed to be for homosexuality after the relationship with the Trinidadian girl had ended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:23 PM

Ake,

"I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals. Is that being dogmatic?"


No, you've implied and then later confirmed on more than one thread that you think Gay men are closet paedophiles and that they are more promiscuous than everyone else.

This dogma remains unsupported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:33 PM

Little Hawk, back in the late 1950s, Cecil, a friend of mine told me an absolutely harrowing story.

It was one of those extremely rare weather phenomena in Seattle (probably not that rare in Ontario) when it snowed several inches, then froze. This kind of thing can shut Seattle down. A bunch of people were partying it up and suddenly found that they were frozen in. The last person with a car had already left, the buses had stopped running, and the cab companies weren't answering their phones (nothing but busy signals). In short, about eight people were stranded. There were enough beds there if people slept double.

After a lot of shuffling and dealing, Cecil, to his horror, wound up assigned to sleep with Tony. Tony, even back in the Fifties, was out. Very out! Positively swishy!

Cec and Tony went to bed. Cec was tense. He was apprehensive. He was on his guard. In fact, he didn't sleep all night! He lay there with his muscles in a knot. It was a horrible night. For him, a waking nightmare. A wide-awaking nightmare! The longest night of his life!

He got up the next morning with multiple bags under his eyes and feeling like someone had dropped a grand piano on him.

Tony had rolled over and gone to sleep immediately, slept soundly all night, and woke up refreshed, bright-eyed, and bushy-tailed.

He wasn't the least bit interested in Cec.

Poor Cecil. Much ado about nothing.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:54 PM

LOL! That's not harrowing, Don, it's funny.

Yeah, we have those storms here now and then. I think you call that an ice storm, and it's a nasty business, specially if there's a power outage from the ice bringing down branches or trees, and there often is.

Some people, Don, cannot sleep all night if anyone is in the same bed with them, regardless of sexual orientation. Maybe even if anyone is in the same room with them. I have the sad fate of being one of those people. It's simply that my mind is too active, and the awareness of the other person being there...just the simple awareness itself...keeps me awake. It's not that I'm worried about them being there. I just cannot stop my mind from thinking about it. I have, in desperation, tried meditative techniques, etc, to stop that from happening, but nothing works except experiencing it repeatedly for some time until the complete lack of sleep finally exhausts me so much that my body falls asleep out of total enervation.

Trust me...it's worse than what Cecil experienced. It lasts longer.

The first time I acquired a steady live-in girlfriend, I barely slept for about 3 solid months! And it wasn't because of the sex. Nope. It was because I simply needed to be alone in the bed to fall asleep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:30 PM

With Cecil, it wasn't quite that way. We were going to the University of Washington together and often met for coffee at the student union building cafeteria. With dozens if not hundreds of people around and several people at the same table, I've seen him fall asleep with his chin in his coffee cup.

I was surprised that he was that apprehensive about Tony. Tony was definitely gay, but he played it for all it was worth. He worked every stereotype. I'm pretty sure it was an attention-getting device. Of course, it could get him punched out, and on more than one occasion, a couple of guys would jump him and beat him up just for the hell of it.

I thought he was a real snort! Over the top! Sometimes he and I would do off-the-cuff jokes, mainly to shock and horrify people in the vicinity. Once we were sitting in a booth in a coffee shop near the university. There were five of us at the table. I was in an inner corner and Tony had pulled up a chair and was sitting at the end of the table.

At one point, Tony said, "Don, would you pass me a napkin?"

I reached for the napkin dispenser, and—the devil made me do it. I asked him, "Super, regular, or junior?"

Everybody's chin hit the table. Tony looked at me with a smirk and said, "Oh, Donnie, you are such a bitch sometimes."

All in good fun, but the rest of the people didn't know it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:36 PM

The problem with Ake is not the specific facts he quotes, many of which 'may' be accurate, but with what assumptions he and many others make about what conclusions can be drawn from data.

That is: one can state that there is 'higher incidence of HIV in certain populations' or that 'no one has found the "gay gene" yet' or even that 'specific sexual practices may make it easier to contract AIDS'.........but those (if they are true) are simply data!

None of these assumptions says anything relevant about the **moral** relevance of homosexuality! There are many human practices which are 'dangerous'...like rock climbing...or military service! But few would suggest that we ban or discriminate against those who indulge!

Ake...and others who are indignantly flinging data about are also implicitly suggesting that homosexuality IS a choice, that it is somehow immoral (was it immoral BEFORE HIV?), and that defending the rights of homosexuals is the same as promoting it.

There is this shifting back & forth from one asertion to another when they are challenged, creating a circular argument as they answer one rebuttal with a re-statement of a previously discredited claim....

You see what is happening? Ake...and others ...have a predetermined notion of what the truth NEEDS to be, so they use rhetoric and cherry-picking of facts to try to prop up their argument.
If we typed 47 paragraphs explaining WHY HIV affects a larger % of homosexual men than 'straight' men, and why it proves nothing relevant to any moral question, he would just switch the focus and eventually either just deny our conclusions or toss out some other set of 'facts' from some study done by some group which also has a predetermined 'answer' to promote!

YOU CANNOT WIN when debating those whose mind is made up at the beginning....all you can do it put some reasonable points out so that others might see them.... and several have done a pretty good job of that.

(sheesh... I wish I had typed all that when I wasn't so tired. I don't think I said it very well...but maybe I got across what a flawed argument form Ake is using.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:31 AM

"YOU CANNOT WIN when debating those whose mind is made up at the beginning....all you can do it put some reasonable points out so that others might see them.... and several have done a pretty good job of that."

Exactly so, Bill. I'm not so foolish that I think I can change the minds of people like Ake and GfS. They have their agenda and they will not waver from it. My concern (and I don't really think I have to continue being that concerned) is the confusion of the innocents – trying to set the record straight for any who might by impressed by Ake's "statistics" and GfS's claim that s/he knows because s/he's a "counselor." Neither has demonstrated that they are competent at their claimed professions. Quite the contrary.

Hell's bells, I've got a life to lead. I really don't need to dedicate my life to repeatedly refuting the perpetually recycled ravings of a couple of – here's the dreaded word again – bigots.

(Sorry, Little Hawk, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:18 AM

If gay men are inclined towards multiple partners rather than stable coupledom, and as a gay man myself I know that this is not wildly inaccurate, it is nothing to do with sexuality. It is to do with masculnity (most STRAIGHT men would also rut around rather than 'settle down'), and with capitalism (which has carved out a very lucrative little market in constructing the clubs and bars of the ''''gay scene'''').

Gay ''''''''promiscuity''''''' is also a direct consequence of homophobia: if you have finally decided it's OK to do something you have been told for years that you should not do, wouldn't you gorge yourself by doing it as often as you could ???

The question of why so many gay men choose to put health concerns as a lower priority is the most difficult one to resolve. But it won't be resolved by those in this thread who want to peddle the myths that homosexuality is intrinsically wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:05 AM

Ok, this thread seems to now be flushing out a few people who reckon homosexuality is wrong.

Why is it wrong?

Why have a group of people claiming to follow the teachings of a possibly mythical person, who reckoned to preach love, tolerance and understanding... want to kill people for their lifestyle? Especially as their lifestyle does not affect or interfere with their own lives?

To keep a folk aspect to it, I know many people who wouldn't and couldn't understand Morris dancing, sticking your finger in your ear and singing about reed cutting despite being born, bred and living in a city.

But many people do.

And enjoy it.

The difference being that nobody has an ingrained hatred of such people. Hobbies and interpretations of entertainment may not be the same as the bloke next door, but he doesn't open a page of a 2,000 year old book and claim the book says to kill them? Or if he did, we have a medical diagnosis for such behaviour.

To anybody who says homosexuality is wrong.. So, what is right then? Can we have a list so we can bow to your smug sanctimonious pathetic illness?

Just because I could never be gay, (it might make my eyes water,) doesn't mean that I despise people who are. I don't understand the fascination with bell ringing either yet my wife's family seem to revolve around it. Still married her. I didn't point and laugh....


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:36 AM

999...Sorry. I've been in bed for a few hours.
I referred to the CDC figures that 53% of all new cases in the US are among homosexuals. As homosexual make up 2-3% of the US population, the likelyhood of homosexual or heterosexual contraction can be easily extrapolated by most people.

Smedley...Thank you for your honesty.
Do you not think that the lower priority of health matters has something to do with the "Risk taking" referred to earlier....and do you put any credence on my view that manic depression may affect the behaviour of many homosexuals?

Manic depression is more widespread in all sections of the population than most people realise and can lead to all kinds of risky and destructive behaviour like addictions, promiscuity etc....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM

only woulld a dialogue between the nation that spawned idi amin on the one hand and theology that spawned the westboro' baptist church on the other would make such propositions have any credence!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:24 AM

Don Froth, You can say almost anything you want, to discredit me, doubt me, deceive others, or discourage others from getting to the truth...but you still haven't produced one shred of evidence to back up your faulty premise! Mine still stand. Nice try!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:47 AM

Ake, I'm not convinced by your 'manic depression' theory, I'm afraid.   It's almost as if you think that sex with many partners is a symptom of illness rather than a choice (albeit a choice made, as all choices are, within constraints).

There are gay men with mental health issues, though my supposition has always been that prejudice against & victimisation of homosexuality play a very large role in that scenario. I don't think that even the most 'sympathetic' hetero can fully grasp what it is like living in a situation where simply being honest about a key part of who you are can lead to such damaging responses. Happily I don't face many of those hostilities in my current daily life, but I only have to read some of the comments in threads like these to know that prejudice is alive & thriving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:14 AM

ToeRag, you are having a ball denouncing people with 20x your intelligence as 'stupid' today. Enjoy yourself, it'a a harmless occupation — for a self-styled ToeRag, ToeRag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 09:47 AM

"The question of why so many gay men choose to put health concerns as a lower priority is the most difficult one to resolve"

or indeed heterosexual Girls and young women (see above)

and with that in mind we can say ... the rest of us too ...

... the answer? because we want to feel good and while a condom is so easy to put on, it is also so easy to forget to put on "because I was Drunk" or because "one thing led to another".

The only exception to this is Ake who went looking for a wife from day one (apparently) and never had more than one partner, and then only for procreative purposes.

GfS,


"Don Froth, You can say almost anything you want, to discredit me, doubt me, deceive others, or discourage others from getting to the truth...but you still haven't produced one shred of evidence to back up your faulty premise! Mine still stand. Nice try!"

Actually Gfs, for those of us with the ability to read and understand words and stuff, it is very clear that you have been making Slanderous assertions about Gay people and Don has been pointing out your lack of evidence to back them up.

"can be easily extrapolated by most people."

You mean as you insist on extrapolating, regardless of how scrutiny exposes that such conclusions are unsafe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:00 AM

Smedley...The only prejudice I have is against death and suffering, and letting things go on as they are( the homosexual Aids figures rising steadily), will only increase that death and suffering.

Right from the start, my fight has not been against homosexuals, but the politically motivated people who wish to silence anyone who points out the Aids figures and demands a proper study

These people pretend to protect minorities, but in reality their politics and their party mean more to them than the lives of homosexuals....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:06 AM

Homosexuality was ILEGAL in England, and it should have remained so. For some reason, every chat show on TV now has to be hosted by a fey homosexual,what happened to the world??


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:14 AM

"Right from the start, my fight has not been against homosexuals, but the politically motivated people who wish to silence anyone who points out the Aids figures and demands a proper study"

Don't forget your assertions that Gay people are closet paedophiles who have no desire, much less ability to form meaningful relationships.

When questioned you have confirmed these views.

You have never denied them or rejected them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:17 AM

Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:27 AM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts?"

I am an ordinary person.

And a homosexual.

99% of the practices (such aromantic word) I indulge in can be, and are, indulged in by heterosexual couples.

Any more insightful contributions, Paco ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM

"!Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts? "

I'm absolutely amazed that some people are still living in the dark ages. You are obviously sexually repressed, Paco.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:42 AM

Paco:

Projecting your own revulsions to make it appear "most" "ordinary" people are sharing them is a common error, but it is still an error. I think it is a form of denial-by-distribution. Put it everywhere, and it won't be noticed. But, ultimately, you have to answer for your own revulsions and prejudices. Why, for example, would you invest so much energy being revolted by something you are not doing, not required to observe, and which is none of your own business? Just asking...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:43 AM

Ake & GfS.....

People of all sorts often pursue behavior that is dangerous or generally unhealthy! People overeat until they are morbidly obese: they smoke cigarettes, they drink way too much alcohol, they drive too fast (sometime after drinking too much), they climb cliff faces with no ropes...etc...
   But you seem to be putting sexual practices/inclinations into a separate category....and if I am reading between the lines correctly, you 'seem' to imply that homosexuality would be 'wrong' somehow, even if there were NO dangers involved!

*IF*, Ake, you really mean "The only prejudice I have is against death and suffering, and letting things go on as they are..", then all you should be concerned with is education about dangers, research into cures for HIV and counseling about **safe** sex...etc.; just like education about obesity, smoking, venereal diseases in general and alcoholism.

Sexuality is as powerful a force as there is: research done on monkeys showed that when electrodes were implanted which allowed the monkeys to stimulate the area of the brain controlling sexual pleasure, they would often forgo food in order to push the pleasure button!
We see heterosexuals also take chances, or just 'forget' to use reasonable care when desires drive them, and it is not really clear yet exactly why some people have better control than others. We DO know that in males, testosterone levels can be involved, and other hormone levels control a lot of sexual orientation.... we KNOW this, but you seem to wish to either deny this or ignore it as you cite 'statistics' in some attempt to paint homosexuality as 'chosen' and 'offensive'..(whether you use those words or not!)

People are different!! They don't all like the same kind of cake, they don't all like the same music, and they don't all have the same sexual orientation as YOU. There is more & more evidence that much of ALL orientations in life are influenced by brain chemistry and heredity. Why shrug about cake & music and fret about sex?

IF health is really all you care about, go volunteer to help with educational programs and donate to scientific reasearch!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:52 AM

Most sexual activities, viewed dispassionately, have their absurd and messy aspects — stains on sheets, grunts & groans & gasps & squeaks & squeals, odd jerky bodily movements... But aren't they nice?

Don't really know what of the sort homosexuals actually do because have had no such experiences [tho am working on perhaps acquiring some before I go, just to find out before I pass out — I'm in v late 70s but still sexually curious, & active up to a point tho a widower so having to do the best I can]. But what can it be, whatever it is, that makes people like Paco react with such negativity to just one aspect, when so much of such activity, hetero or homo or solo, manual or oral, 'specialist' or kinky or whatever, is, as I say, pretty bloody absurd & mucky anyhow!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:56 AM

Don and Little Hawk....

Some people, it would seem, do not sleep easy in their bed if someone is miles away from then sleeping who just happens to be gay! ;-)

Smedley wrote: "The question of why so many gay men choose to put health concerns as a lower priority is the most difficult one to resolve". It is indeed BUT it's not just gay men is it? Straight men have a tendency to neglect their health too. Trying to get a man to go to the Doctor can be a labour of love when he is ill! Men are dying. literally, because they will not have 'normal' health checks, and anything to do with their genitals... forget it! So I actually think that is a male thing and not a gay male thing alone. Men do neglect themselves in my experience.

Each to their own lives taking what chances they take or not. It matters not a jot what sexuality someone is to me. I am always far more interested at what is between a persons ears, and in their hearts, than what is between their legs. Affording everyone the same initial respect - whereby only they themselves can change the meter up or down - generally works. What people do in their own time has nothing to do with me as long as they are not hurting me in its doing. Obviously, some things affect us all in a way that would mean us having to take notice if someone were hurting someone else but, generally, live and let live seems a reasonably good starting point with any encounter.

I still think education is a major leveller for things to do with hate, ignorances, homophobia, etc. Not everyone will stop the hate but many, once aware of true facts, do become more tolerant initially and then actually accepting. Even within the gay communities, and many other minority groups, there is misunderstanding, distrust and confusion.

We can live in hope for greater understanding and knowledge to bring about changed environments where everyone can have respect for each other.

I am a dreamer....

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:27 PM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts? "

I have no idea what they get up to. I am not, nor do I want to be, 'ordinary' (whatever ordinary is). I am just me, with all sorts of interests in life, some of which could potentially shorten my life. I could use a capo in a C&W club and get lynched, for instance, or try and play my guitar without a safety net ;-)

I just drove home from work on a very busy, wet, dark and windy Motorway. Now that concentrates my thinking and warrants concern because it affects me.

TBH I could not give two hoots as to what gay men indulge in (if by practice you mean sex) as I am far more interested in all the other things thay are capable of that could actually increase my pleasures or interests, as with the other sexualities in our midst. I am not interested in what straight couples do in their own privavcy. Nor any combinations inbetween. People's sexual practices (being consensual and adult in nature) has nothing to do with me. I am too busy getting on with my own life and answering posts on Mudcat lol ;-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts? "

We surely do acknowledge that many *ordinary* people are SO ordinary that they can't cope with differences! The real problem is with shallow, ignorant and insensitive 'ordinary' people! These are the people who condemn religions other than their own, political parties other than their own, cultures other than their own...etc.

If other people indulge in practices that do not affect ME, it is none of my business what they do. *IF* they try to coerce ME into joining their church, political party or sexual practices, then I will object loudly!

"Go thou, and do likewise."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM

If you bozos had any idea what male Orangutans do when they are alone together, you wouldn't be so het up anymore about what gay men are doin', lemme tell ya!

DISGUSTING!!!!

I always put my gloves on before shakin' an Orangutan's hand. And I get the glove sterilized afterward. If I get in a fight with an Orangutan, I shower for three hours when I get home and I dose up on Vitamin C and hard liquor. You can't be too safe.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:44 PM

""Aids is not a fucking joke Don!
It is deadly serious, especially for people who habitually take sexual risks, indulge in anal sex and lead promiscuous lifestyles.
""

Nobody is laughing about aids Ake. Not even you are that stupid.

It is good, however, to see that you are at last acknowledging (however accidentally) that it is a disease which attacks people who take sexual risks, indulge in anal sex, and lead promiscuous lives, and not just gay men who do those things.

That, for you, is a major step toward recognition of the realities of life.

Now all we have to do is to get you to acknowledge that your post should read unprotected sex, and you will just about be on the right page.

This is really encouraging.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:57 PM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people"
I find people who kill animals for pleasure pretty revolting.
A couple of friends not far from here almost throw up at the thought of eating meat.
And don't get me started about eating oysters!!!!
Please explain 'ordinary people'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM

I just don't understand this fixation with other people's sexual proclivities. It seems to me to be unhealthily prurient, intrusive aand voyeuristic. Don't you gay-bashers have sex lives of your own? Presumably not if you're so interested in what other people get up to.

Sad!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:18 PM

""I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals. Is that being dogmatic?""

Glory be to the Great Pixie!....Akenaton wants to learn.

OK, well, if you take your statistical sample from the comparatively small enclosed communities in the Western United States, you won't get the same answers as if you ask the same questions on the African continent where it originated, and where they are under the impression that HIV/AIDS is very much a heterosexual thing.

That may have some bearing on the HUGE percentage of children who are victims in Africa.

I'm assuming that you will acknowledge that homosexuals are not responsible for children born with HIV/AIDS.

Also, without wishing to shatter your closed and shuttered illusions, a visit to a local nightclub on a Friday night might give you some surprising (to you) new information about the degree of heterosexual promiscuity which exists out here in the real world.

Scotsmen aren't usually that obtuse, in my experience.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:37 PM

"I'm assuming that you will acknowledge that homosexuals are not responsible for children born with HIV/AIDS."

I'm not assuming anything ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:56 PM

I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals.

This is obviously not the case everywhere, in Ireland for example the fastest growing group of HIV infected are heterosexual, especially women. Intravenous drug user are strong risers too in the newly infected statistics while new infections among the homosexual community have remained stable.

In most of the Western countries the homosexual population was the first into which the virus was introduced. Hence the high infection rate. In Africa the infection started in the hetero sexual part of the population, and there it is still most prominent. Fairly basic stuff really, if you think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM

Paco has a point, if any real heterosexuals among you were given the choice of being raped by a woman or a man....which would you chose, and which would fill you with horror!

Bill ..A nice post, wish I had time to discuss it at length with you.
I will tell you that I am involved with a group which provides information and services to heroin addicts....many are dying from hepc and many die from heroin and methadone overdose most of these lives could be saved if the govt had the will and provided proper funding, but as you probably know, helping addicts is not an electoral plus.

The important thing in dealing with homosexual practice is to stop the deaths and to do that a far ranging study into the negative medical aspects of homosexuality requires to be undertaken.

It may well be that some here will not like the recommendations of such a study...but who gives a fuck what the sort of numbskulls who have posted since my last message think, as long as thousands of lives can be saved.

PS I don't catagorise your good self,Smedley,Mr Obarma or Chongo, as numbskulls...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:58 PM

"any real heterosexuals among you were given the choice of being raped by a woman or a man"

Oh fuck off! You have absolutely no clue about anything you pontificate on. Women are just as nasty and sadistic as men, they don't have cocks but they certainly have imaginations, as may be witnessed by all kinds of tabloid reported events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:02 PM

Do you mind! I want my full title... a LIBERAL numbskull ;-)


The studies have been done and the recommendations made, of all non safe sex practices for all sexualities. The results have been known for some time. I think you will find they found there are negative medical aspects to all kinds of things sexual, for straight, gay or bi. The factual studies are not hard to find for anyone wanting to find them. Still...

I'll just sit and facepalm now as anything else I would want to say has been blugeoned out of me lol

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:05 PM

As a woman, I'd "choose" to be raped by whomever got out of my spacve as past as possible.

I wonder what our resident anti-gay posters would prefer to be raped by? All man, or man with dick and titties? Double the "trauma" hey.. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM

In answer to the earlier puzzlement about the fixation on others' sexual proclivities and activities, I can only conclude it stems from a sorry uncertainty about one's own...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:08 PM

Rape by penis is potentially more harmful and invasive than rape by lips or fingers, seems to me...but it's clear that either experience would be quite unpleasant for the recipient in both a physical and a psychological sense. Nevertheless, the possibility or likelihood of such an assault by a man (gay or otherwise) is tremendously higher than it is by a woman...and everybody knows that. It's completely obvious. It's like saying "You are more likely to drown in water than in sand." (and you definitely can drown in either)

The very nature of male sexuality, by virtue of the physical structure of males, is more aggressive, while the nature of female sexuality, again by virtue of the physical structure itself, is more receptive (or passive). That doesn't prevent some individual females from being aggressive, of course, nor does it prevent some individual males from being passive, but it definitely does color the general nature of their sexual actions to a considerable extent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM

"... if any real heterosexuals among you were given the choice of being raped by a woman or a man....which would you chose, and which would fill you with horror!"

I suspect the question is somewhat irrelevant. What gender would the hetrosexual be? And rape is rape. Something else that is not a choice to the person being raped no matter their gender or sexual orientation.

I find the very idea perverse and repulsive anyone being raped by anyone, to answer part of your question.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:26 PM

So comforting having the (quite obvious) ignorance of inexperience isn't it little h? There are those amongst us who know different. Nothing is obvious if unknown. Women can use all kinds of things to rape. Imagination, like I said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:26 PM

I would to some considerable extent prefer being raped by a woman than by a man if I was forced to make a choice between one or the other. But I still would not like it. And that is the plain truth, quite apart from poltically correct posturing to make sure that no one listening in here thinks (gasp!) that I might be homophobic!

To be branded as homophobic these days is pretty much like being accused of consorting with the devil back in 1550. It is to be avoided at all cost. This accounts for a great deal of the frenzied rhetoric one hears about it all the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

Jim...We seem to have more in common than I thought.
The killing of animals for fun also revolts me.
Were you ever a member of the CP by any chance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:44 PM

"...if any real heterosexuals among you were given the choice of being raped by a woman or a man....which would you chose, and which would fill you with horror!"

Good god. What kind of question is that? (Why do I keep getting the feeling that there is a prurient aspect to a certain person's stance?)

Rape = force. Rape by broom handle or glass bottle or whatever/em> besides a penis would be far more horrendous, because it denotes a further twist to the attack; the chances of escaping alive would be seriously reduced.

Ake, I think you need to back off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:50 PM

Sister and Hawk, I was of course referring more to the psychlogical trauma.
Your thoughts on "homophobia" are right on the button Hawk, to the extent that so called liberals are prepared to watch a minority decimated by disease, rather than criticise the lifestyle which causes the damage.

Sister...you seem rather a good example of the female type which you describe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:55 PM

Lifestyle doesn't cause the damage. HIV does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:59 PM

When it comes to my least favorite way to be raped, Ebbie...yes, I would prefer rape by penis to rape by broom handle, jackhammer, schmeisser submachine gun... or monitor lizard.

I think...

Hmmm. I gotta sit down and really give this some thought.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:00 PM

"...so called liberals are prepared to watch a minority decimated by disease, rather than criticise the lifestyle which causes the damage."


In what way does criticizing the lifestyle help the minority?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:04 PM

I mention above about my college acquaintance, Tony, who was rather obviously gay, from time to time getting dragged into a back alley by a couple of "he-men" and beaten up.

GfS insists that homosexuality is a matter of free choice, and further, that it is a psychological aberration that can be cured by proper counseling. Ake has heartfelt concern for the detrimental effects on those who practice anal intercourse—along with the pedophilia which he tells us is rampant among homosexual men. Both seem to be insisting that homosexual activity is "unnatural" (despite the incidence of homosexual activity within the animal kingdom) and "a perversion" (which can be anything one finds distasteful), although, to be fair, neither go quite as far as those of a religious fundamentalist bent who insist the homosexuality is a mortal sin.

One wonders sometimes where all this earnest concern for the health and well-being of gay men leaves off—and veiled hate speech begins. One also wonders where this sort of thing can lead. Well. . . .

Without further comment:

On October 7, 1998, at the Fireside Lounge in Laramie, Wyoming, Russel Arther Henderson and Aaron James McKinney, both 21 years old, picked up Matthew Shepard, a college student and also 21, and drove him to a remote rural area where they robbed him, pistol-whipped and tortured him, then tied him to a fence and left him to die.

Some 18 hours later Aaron Kreifels discovered Shepard, after initially mistaking him for a scarecrow. Shepard was still alive, but in a coma.

Shepard suffered fractures to the back of his head and in front of his right ear. He had severe brain stem damage, which affected his body's ability to regulate heart rate, body temperature, and other vital functions. There were also a dozen lacerations around his head, face, and neck. His injuries were deemed too severe for doctors to operate. Shepard never regained consciousness and remained on full life support. As he lay in intensive care, candlelight vigils were held by the people of Laramie.

He was pronounced dead at 12:53 A.M. on October 12, 1998, at Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado.

Police arrested McKinney and Henderson shortly thereafter, finding the bloody gun as well as the victim's shoes and wallet in their truck.

Henderson and McKinney had attempted to persuade their girlfriends to provide alibis, but subsequently the two of them were convicted of kidnapping and felony murder. Each "copped a plea" to avoid a death sentence, and each of them was given two consecutive life sentences without possibility of parole.

Why had the two of them committed this vicious act?

Matthew Shepard was gay.

Don Firth

P. S. I couldn't find a video, but here are the words to a song recorded by Peter Paul and Mary. CLICKY


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:04 PM

Little Hawk, it sounds like you are making light of it. Broom handles and glass bottles have often been used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:12 PM

Pardon me, but I will add one comment to my post above. A question, actually.

In the incident I describe above, who of the three men was (were) the "pervert(s)?"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:14 PM

I think Ebbie, that if forced to chose, most men would rather be raped with a broom handle than a penis!

Btw, if you had taken the time to read the thread, you would KNOW why the question was posed....and prurience had absolutely nothing to do with it. I will "back off" or as Sister says "fuck off" when I am good and ready and need no advice on how to conduct my self or my argument from either of you


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:20 PM

Let me re- phrase the question, would you rather be raped by a homosexual or subjected to attempted murder by a woman holding a broken bottle and about to insert it into your anus?

Fucking idiots!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:35 PM

Isn't it the defining aspect of rape that you don't have a choice?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:37 PM

No.....they might be "liberals"


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:38 PM

The issue is NOT rape in any case. That's just a red herring.

The issue, originally, was the brutalization of individuals in a minority by individuals in a majority as defined by sexual orientation.

Hetero men and women:

Have sex
May get AIDs
Increase the risk of STDs if uneducated or careless about them
Increase risk of STDs if they engage in anal intercourse
Only engage in anal intercourse in some cases, not in all.
Engage in oral sex.
Engage in manual sex.
Are allowed to define one another as spouses with concomitant legal priveleges such as survivorship, co-ownership, insurance, etc.

Homo men and women:

Have sex
May get AIDs
Increase the risk of STDs if uneducated or careless about them
Increase risk of STDs if they engage in anal intercourse
Only engage in anal intercourse in some cases, not in all.
Engage in oral sex.
Engage in manual sex.
Are not allowed to define one another as spouses with concomitant legal priveleges such as survivorship, co-ownership, insurance, etc.

Why is this logical?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM

Yet another topic gets lost completely under the weight of Akenaton's desire to rule over the rest of the world's private lives.

Why don't you go and take over Uganda, Ake, they must be about ripe for another lunatic dictator.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:53 PM

Why would a homosexual rape a woman?

I suspect having a broken bottle put inside your anus or vagina (or used to cut your penis off) would be potentially immediately more life threatening than any organ being placed inside you, at least initially.

TBH, to rather have one thing or the other happen you would have to be a fu***** idiot... or very sick.

The argument you are making, using the example you have, is still irrelevant, sorry.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:54 PM

Don, as you know I dont normally respond to your shite, but when in the last few months have you posted any topic of any interest whatsoever?

If lunacy is a job requirement, then Don's yer man, you Ugandans!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:04 PM

"Why would a homosexual rape a woman?

I suspect having a broken bottle put inside your anus or vagina (or used to cut your penis off) would be potentially immediately more life threatening than any organ being placed inside you, at least initially.

TBH, to rather have one thing or the other happen you would have to be a fu***** idiot... or very sick.

The argument you are making, using the example you have, is still irrelevant, sorry"

Now this is a bit complicated MP.......See that thing ye dae wi yer hauns ower yer een.....is it "facepalm" ye ca'it?......Well ah think mibee yer meant tae tak yer hauns away an read the threid afore ye start typin' doll.   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:17 PM

Ake, your obsession with anal sex has now escalated to an obsession with anal rape—with a whole variety of implements. Let me make a suggestion:

Step out into a motorway, lift your kilt, moon (altogether, now!) "a bonny army lorry," and try to entice it to drive up your exit ramp.

That oughta be quite a thrill for you!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:18 PM

Gentlemen, breathe deeply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:25 PM

Amos....I like your wee lists, very neat n'tidy.
But you've missed one wee tiny detail to the homosexual one

"are 50 times more likely to develop aids than heteros"


Jist tryin' tae be helpful, 'ken.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:28 PM

You said... "Let me re- phrase the question, would you rather be raped by a homosexual or subjected to attempted murder by a woman holding a broken bottle and about to insert it into your anus?"

With an emphasis on "would YOU rather", and me being female, I am saying why would a homosexual [male]* want to rape a woman? Any woman? As you know, I have been on the thread throughout so have been reading. * my brackets

I am having great trouble understanding your premise and where it is coming from or going to. The example you are using, at least to me, is irrelevant, as it has nothing to do with original thread and it's continuing support from most of acceptance for gay people. Demonising them will not actually make the argument any more or less valid.

In short I do not understandit because I am not worrying about what gay people want to do. I accept they are gay through no choice of their own and they have a right to live as you and I, free and without prejudice. If they choose to risk their lives, along with the straight and bi sections of the community, by unsafe practices, then that is their own decision. Being gay is not a decision. This is not liberalsim, politically motivated, or agenda driven other than to accept the diversity that is human nature. Your argument appears to stand against just gay men. IF the argument was to be to try and educate and stop the sexual carnage that is going on with promiscuity for all sexualities, I would agree with you far more. Indeed, I advocate safe sex for everyone in any case. Where you and I seem to differ, and others on this thread, is that we do not see it as a gay issue.

We really must agree to disagree akenaton as we do seem to be on very opposite sides. I am not willing to name call to make any other points. People can have their opinions. I would like to think mine are based on experience and research as I know it. I simply cannot go along with your argument... though I did read the last sentence of your post to me (in whatever dialect it was written in it was understandable with a little practice). It's not complicated. It's just that we disagree and I fear that will remain the case on this topic.

And now I must go to bed as I have work in the morning and I am up later than I should be.

Good luck with your postings

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:31 PM

"are 50 times more likely to develop aids than heteros"

That's just not true, Ake. That info comes from a fundamentalist "christian" website. Notice I didn't capitalize christian. The fifty times more likely crap is just that. Fact is, people who have unprotected sex are a 1,000,000 times more likely to 'develop' AIDS than those who abstain or use condoms, be they gay or straight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:34 PM

Speaking of foreign objects lodged in one's nether regions-- , it's going to be difficult to dial 911 (999 for the UKers), imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM

999--that depends on your degree of sphinctral prehensility, no?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:40 PM

If you're thinking along the lines of elephants' trunks, and if you can do that, you're the eighth wonder of the world, and you'll have shagged yourself in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

Sorry 999....the figure comes from CDC who quote 53% of all new aids cases are within the homosexual community.
Homosexuals make up 2-3% of the population, so the "fifty times" figure can be extrapolated from the two percentages

But I'll say no more about it if you don't mention fag jokes!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:49 PM

I know, lets idly speculate, in vivid technicolour, all the possible ways a man or woman might rape somebody.

How about with a broken bottle?

Or a broom handle?

No actual examples, just creative self indulgence.


Ake, you have a serious and really sickening problem. I find you repugnant and revolting in the extreme.



LH, I have enjoyed some of your posts over the years, but your intellectual ego and the self satisfied pseudo-philosophical nothings that you yawn all over us in these kind of discussions are starting to grate on my nerves.


How horrific to indulge Ake's "horror" fantasy in such a blithe and carefree way.

I've been wondering how long it would take before Ake stopped repeating unsubstantiated assertions and started rinsing his morbidly descriptive and vivid imagination again of all its darkest imagery.

We've had it in previous threads, where he has taken us in glorious detail through his fascination (and of course disgust .... he just loves to feel that disgust) with the image of two men having sex with each other.

He asks us when we'll admit that this is all about Anal sex and promiscuity.

I'm starting to see that that is true.

And now you are regaling us with descriptions of rape fantasies.


Did these events occur?

NO!

Then where did they come from?

your imagination - that's where.

They are fantasy.

Your fantasy.


Your whole argument is based on fantasy and when given the chance you just love to describe that fantasy in all its horrific glory.

Would I rather be raped by a man or a woman?!?!?!?!?!

WTF?!?!?!?!?!

Tell me Ake, does it disgust you how all these gay men (closet paedophiles) abuse their victims too?

"Would you like me to draw any pictures?"

No thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:53 PM

This discussion really has hit sewer level, especially since Ake appears to have found himself another soulmate after the last one rode off into the sunset (one more time - "ordinary people Paco?).
I also suggested that Ake and 'guest from Sanity' were peddling the same fundamentalist 'Christian' line on homosexuality that enabled clergymen to rape generations of children, and received no reply - did I hear the cock crow three times Ake?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:56 PM

Why isn't that true in Africa, then, Ake?

Doesn't that disparate curve make you ownder whether you are distorting the problem with an exclusive sample?

According to your math, then, for 1000 humans, 250 will be gay and they will get as many cases of aids as the other 750. If there are one hundred cases that means they will get fifty (a one in five (.2) chance for any individual) and the other 750 people will get 50? For a chance of .06 compared to .2. Meaning the multiplier is not 50 but a little over three.

I suspect your combining per centages is fallacious, mathematically.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:58 PM

Oh my.... I shant be back. Beyond trolling... into sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:04 PM

"who gives a fuck what the sort of numbskulls who have posted since my last message think, as long as thousands of lives can be saved."

So now you're really just helping the poor Gays.

Don't you think they're closet paedophiles anymore?

You'd be better off writing a book of sexual fantasies.

I think it is pretty clear where your niche would lie.

Though I suspect you'll come up with a lot more creative ideas for your niche than I ever could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

"I know, lets idly speculate, in vivid technicolour, all the possible ways a man or woman might rape somebody.

How about with a broken bottle?

Or a broom handle?

No actual examples, just creative self indulgence.


Ake, you have a serious and really sickening problem. I find you repugnant and revolting in the extreme."

Right you fucker! Do you seriously think that I care what you think of me?.....If you had taken the time to read what was printed,you would have discovered your vivid technicolour horror film was actually thought up by sweet Ebbie a founder member of your team.

You find me repugnant and revolting in the extreme....well whoopee doo      What do I think of you....Seemple... fuck all, zilch,nothing, I dont waste my time!.....but I will expect an apology in due course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:19 PM

Amos as you know, we have already discussed the very different means of transmission in Africa on another thread and its a bit late to go into all that.

For the purposes of this discussion lets stick to the north American figures

Amos my friend, your language is superb, but your "sums" leave a lot to be desired....:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:21 PM

The fantasy begins here with Paco:

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people."

You turned it into a rape fantasy here:

"Paco has a point, if any real heterosexuals among you were given the choice of being raped by a woman or a man....which would you chose, and which would fill you with horror!"


What fills me with horror is the self indulgenet ignorance of these two posts.

Little Hawk began his tasteless analysis of whiich would be worse, searching his feeling as he indulged the whole rape fantasy and from that point on this thread became the most vile thing I have ever witnessed on Mucat.

Shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:24 PM

It seems the character of the opposition has been revealed in vivid technicolour!.............:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:25 PM

"For the purposes of this discussion lets stick to the north American figures"

You mean lets be selective so that your argument doesn't look quite so ridiculous?

"your honour, I would like to move that the defence leave out the rest of the evidence and allow the prosecutions case to stand on the evidence that we have presented alone. Sadly the defences evidence contradicts my argument and is therefore inconvenient."


You are having a laugh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:27 PM

You dont even have the guts to apologise! you're pathetic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:30 PM

I haven't got caught up, all the way, but I saw this one, and just HAD to answer it!
Smedley:"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts?"
I am an ordinary person.
And a homosexual.
99% of the practices (such aromantic word) I indulge in can be, and are, indulged in by heterosexual couples.
Any more insightful contributions, Paco ??"


99%????..You mean you leave out, finding a partner of the opposite sex, loving that person, crossing the differences of the genders, making love to that person, producing a child, with, and by that person, and spending your days, raising and loving that child, into adulthood???

Its all about sex isn't it???


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:39 PM

No Ake,

I'll tell you what is pathetic.

-your arguments and the premiss upon which they are built
-your desperate clinging on to a meagre scrap of tenuously related evidence
-your accusation that Gay men of having a natural propensity for paedophilia
- your blaming of the weakness of the economy on immigration
- and your vivid descriptions of morbid visions of men having sex with each other
- and you invitation to us to indulge in rape fantasies


And so is your last post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:44 PM

"99%????..You mean you leave out, finding a partner of the opposite sex, loving that person, crossing the differences of the genders, making love to that person, producing a child, with, and by that person, and spending your days, raising and loving that child, into adulthood???

Its all about sex isn't it??? "


No GfS,

You are leaving out having dinner, going on holiday, conversation, emotional support, consolation, humour, etc etc ...

i.e all the other things that make us human.

I think the point is that it isn't just about sex, and that fascination with how gays have sex says more about the fantasist than the object of their fantasy.


As Gil Scott heron said, I am 360 degrees, and sex is just one small part of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 09:49 PM

Lox, Re-read the post I responded to....I think you missed something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 09:52 PM

I disbelieve the 53% figure attributed to the CDC. I live outside the US and therefore cannot call them toll-free. Is there and American who would please ask the CDC about that 53% figure and pass the info onto Mudcat? Their toll free number in the US is

800-CDC-INFO (800-232-4636)

I disbelieve the 53% figure, Ake. I do NOT think you are BSing. I do think you got hold of some bad info.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 10:15 PM

A rcent set of Figures is here (CDC Statistics).

2007 data: Whites 12,556
                   Blacks 21,549
                   Hispanic 7,484

Male adult or adolescent:

Male-to-male sexual contact                 22,472
High-risk heterosexual contact                 4,551
of a total of 31,518.


Female adult or adolescent:

Injection drug use                1,806
High-risk heterosexual contactc                9,076
Otherd                96

of a total of 10,977.

This shows a ratio between MtoM sexual contact and hetero male sex of 22:4.4, about 5:1 (not 50).   Note that 22/31 of male cases are from MtoM sexual contact.(70%)

In females, the ratio of high-risk hetero sexual contact is 9 out of 10.9, nearly 95%.

These numbers do not support any of the cut-and-dried arguments in this thread as far as I can see. 70% of males cases come from male homosexual contacts while 90+% of cases in females come from unsafe hetero contact.

Perhaps the moral of the story is "Don't have sex with males no matter what your gender!"


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:20 PM

If there were a death penalty for humorlessness, gross intolerance of differing viewpoints, knee-jerk emotional reactions of a very predictable nature, vicious personal attacks on other posters, and outrageous self-righteousness carried to the point of unintentional humor, this place would be littered with dead bodies like the Alamo after the battle was done.

That's why I ignore this thread most of the time. It's like visiting a toxic waste dump. Interesting to look at....but you don't want to hang around too long, because you might get poisoned by all the ill will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:28 PM

I have stayed the Hell out until this excrable piece of nonsense.

Now I cannot sit still.

The full quote is:

"99%????..You mean you leave out, finding a partner of the opposite sex, loving that person, crossing the differences of the genders, making love to that person, producing a child, with, and by that person, and spending your days, raising and loving that child, into adulthood???"

Let me parse and add commentary:

"99%????..You mean you leave out, finding a partner of the opposite sex,"

Why does a loving partner need to be of the opposite sex?

"loving that person,"

Ditto!

"crossing the differences of the genders,"

WTF? Why does this matter? Can't we also say appreciating the PERSON?

"making love to that person,"

Yup, got that covered. But this is the point where Ake has such vivid imagingings.

"producing a child, with, and by that person,"
So procreation is all that matters? What about the heteros who marry late in life? Or those who decide to not have kids? You are no fooking counselor...trust me.

"and spending your days, raising and loving that child, into adulthood???"

I have three (count 'em three!) immediate relatives who have all done this while married to a same-sex partner. And the kids are happy, well-adjusted successes with kids of their own. Again, you are no fooking counselor. You are a poser. A fraud. Now go make up a character to agree with you. And use no capitals to disguise your "voice". And, be sure to not use the phrase "being as", or you will be transparent on the spot. Go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:50 PM

TIA, Do you mean to tell me that these homosexual couples had children from having sex with each other????...That was what I was asking Smedley....Being as he said that..."I am an ordinary person.
And a homosexual.
99% of the practices (such aromantic word) I indulge in can be, and are, indulged in by heterosexual couples."

So, if you can't sit still...sit on it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:54 PM

Gross intolerance is exactly the point.
And personal attacks should not be defended with pseudo-philosophical self-righteousness.

Evil flourishes when good people do nothing.

-Edmund Burke (maybe)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 12:13 AM

Yup, homosexual couples have children. Drives you crazy, but they do.
I also have two kids of my own that did not involve my organs. Are they any less my kids counselor?
God help your "clients" if you answer the way your posting thought process dictates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 12:15 AM

And now I will "sit on it" (are you picturing that Ake?).
Being as you will never convince me, and I will never convince you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM

TIA:'I also have two kids of my own that did not involve my organs. Are they any less my kids counselor?'

Well, that's what I was talking about! Children from the original parents, in answer to Smedley's post.

By the way, sure looks like I hit a nerve!..Which in my earlier post(Prop 8 thread), I broached that subject, both sensitively, and compassionately, if you remember, as to a certain inner sadness that homosexuals had in common.

The same is often true, with two families trying to join together, as in hetero, broken homes.

So, what is it? You finally came roaring out of the closet, to 'set me straight', and tripped over your own truth????


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:41 AM

Guest from Sanity: I used the word "practices" because I took it directly from Paco's idiotic 'contribution' to the debate.

He (or, I guess but I hope not, possible she) sure as hell meant sexual practices as that post shuddered homophobically at the thought of the organ/orifice conjunctions we homos are known to enjoy. I merely pointed out that putting Thing A in Hole B (etc etc) was not sexuality-specific.

The other issues you introduced in your hyper-ventilating attempt to point-score against me are nothing to do with Paco's original point.

I don't throw the term 'homophobe' around lightly, but you deserve to have it tattooed on your forehead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 02:43 PM

As to the matter of procreation, some same-sex couples do want children.

There are a couple of ways of accomplishing this. Perhaps the easiest method is adoption. Twice now, one of the same-sex couples I mention above have made trips to China, adopted infants from a Chinese orphanage, and are raising them. These kids are going to have a much better life with Steve ("Daddy") and Dave ("Papa") as their parents than they would have had otherwise. Granted, it's not a conventional family life, but it's far better for them than no family life at all. Steve and Dave are both attorneys and have the resources to see that these kids get good educations and have everything they need. There are a lot of kids in the world who are not so lucky.

Another couple (also both attorneys) have suddenly found themselves with four children. Surrogate mother, in vitro fertilization. Eric has a two year old son. And by the same surrogate mother, Jim wound up with triplets! Other than being a bit dazed, everyone is doing fine, thank you very much! And the kids are all at least half-related, through the mother.

By the way, both of these couples have female friends and relatives who spend a lot of time with the kids (baby sitting and such), so it's not as if the young 'uns are bereft of having women around.

And they have the support of their church whenever they might need it.

And GfS, ". . . as to a certain inner sadness that homosexuals had in common."

Which fortune cookie did you get that totally unsubstantiated bit of hokum from? Your half-vast experience as a "counselor," not doubt!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 02:49 PM

""Don, as you know I dont normally respond to your shite, but when in the last few months have you posted any topic of any interest whatsoever?""

Your posting history is available to any who wish to test the veracity of your blatantly lying first sentence. Your responses to my comments are a matter of record, and those who choose to check will also be able to ascertain that you rarely make a logical, sensible or pertinent response.

My posts too are a matter of record, and I will happily accept the verdict of members other than yourself and GfS, as to which of us actually has enough grasp of reality to post sound common sense, and which of us is on a one man campaign to set human progress back a hundred years.

If you want a battle of wits, you'll need to achieve better than your current half equipped status.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 02:58 PM

By the way:

". . . homosexuals are 50 times more likely to develop aids than heteros."

This "statistic"is purely speculative, and as such, nothing more than someone's wild guess.

For example, people who engage in the dangerous practice of sky-diving are 99% more likely to bury their faces three feet deep into the hardpan than people who engage in the practice of Morris dancing.

Those who are born male have a 100% greater chance of getting prostate cancer than those who are born female.

So, what of any significance can we learn from "statistics" like this, eh?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:51 PM

Smedley:"....don't throw the term 'homophobe' around lightly, but you deserve to have it tattooed on your forehead. "

I have to consider the source, and coming from a homosexual, you may confuse a 'homophobe' with any person who is supportive of the family structure, consisting of one man, one woman, children of those two.
Because that is out of your(and a lot of others in here) reach, don't project a phobia onto happy family people who couldn't give a rat's ass on your particular dysfunction.......(Bingo)!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 06:20 PM

So, no one called the CDC?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM

GfS, I don't know what Smedley has in mind, but what indicates to me that you are a flag-waving, card-carrying homophobe is that you spend so much of your time and effort trying to peddle your anti-gay propaganda on this and other threads (and God knows where else). That, plus the fact that you are dedicated to denying a minority equal rights and protection under the law (civil rights) is what brands you indelibly as a bigot.

Sorry, GfS, but you are condemned out of your own mouth (i.e., keyboard).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM

Funny how Don, TIA, and a lot of their fellow clowns throw the word 'homophobe' around so freely. You claim to want 'tolerance' for homosexuals, but have NONE for those who prefer the traditional nuclear family, but want to 'imitate' them, in you supposed 'same gender' family 'structure'. This has nothing to do with the well-being of children; this is more like using them as 'props', for two dysfunctional 'adults' pretending to play house!!! In light of that, being slandered with 'homophobe' or 'bigot', should maybe be reserved for those who call homosexuals 'fagots', or 'fudge-packers'...and nobody has called them that on here and certainly not me!..nor Akenaton, for all I can remember. So, who is the two faced hypocrite???? You can't have it both ways, but I don't think you can see it both ways. You can't even be honest enough with yourself to be objective, and look for truth, that doesn't fit into your preconceived notion of the hypocritical political crap you subscribe to!

When I answered Smedley, it was meant to point out that there is MORE to relationships, than scratching each others sex drive itches. But thanks to the narrow mindedness of the defenders of hypocrisy, you turned it into something else, so you could champion your folly, instead of addressing what was said or meant. WHAT A SORRY LOT!!!
Don is already renowned for that very tactic, and has been called on it repeatedly....but he doesn't learn, from past mistakes, which, by the way, is a classic symptom of a psychotic! Look it up for yourself!

And yes, I am a counselor, and one thing I've known through the years of doing it, is the denser of the two, is the one who can't see him or herself as part of the problem, and uses that tactic to refuse to take responsibility. Instead, its rationalize, and justify, rationalize and more justification.....EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON HERE WITH THE USUAL VILLAGE IDIOTS! GET A CLUE, AND LOOK FOR TRUTH, objectively, AND IF IT SHEDS LIGHT, ON ONE OF YOUR PRECONCEIVED BIASES, THEN POSSIBLE CONSIDER CHANGING YOUR MIND IN LIGHT OF NEW INFORMATION!!!!!

In other words, to quote John Belushi, "WISE UP!" yourselves, instead of 'dumbing' down all around you, so you can 'feel' accepted' and comfortable!!!

....But then, after all, you are the products of political propaganda!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 07:58 PM

" ...denser of the two, is the one who can't see him or herself as part of the problem, and uses that tactic to refuse to take responsibility. Instead, its rationalize, and justify, rationalize and more justification.....EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON HERE WITH THE USUAL VILLAGE IDIOTS! GET A CLUE, AND LOOK FOR TRUTH, objectively, AND IF IT SHEDS LIGHT, ON ONE OF YOUR PRECONCEIVED BIASES, THEN POSSIBLE CONSIDER CHANGING YOUR MIND IN LIGHT OF NEW INFORMATION!!!!! "

Couldn't have said it better myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:17 PM

God help your patients, GfS, because it's obvious that you certainly can't.

And it's not politics, it's ethics.

You've heard of it, haven't you?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:20 PM

QUESTION: WILL anyone from here call the CDC? Toll-free number below.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:08 PM

From http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm

HIV Incidence Estimate

Incidence is the number of new HIV infections that occur during a given year.
In 2008, CDC estimated that approximately 56,300 people were newly infected with HIV in 20061 (the most recent year that data are available). Over half (53%) of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men. Black/African American men and women were also strongly affected and were estimated to have an incidence rate than was 7 times as high as the incidence rate among whites. Visit the HIV incidence page for more details.

1Hall HI, Ruiguang S, Rhodes P, et al. Estimation of HIV incidence in the United States. JAMA. 2008;300:520-529.


So the figures are from 2008, and the '53%' is new HIV infections, not 'AIDS'.

I won't continue any argument here. It's the same discussion that happens whenever someone says 'homosexual' around here. It starts out being about marriage or people being put to death, but the same old 'homosexuality is evil' bigots kick get back on that high horse and shove the discussion back to their scripts.

If hatred compels a person to have the same frustrating knee jerk reactions over and over, to shove conversations back into the familiar rut, that person has a problem. I only have a problem if I try to argue or reason with them. For most of us, this is just discussion. I think maybe for other people, it's something a lot deeper and they can't NOT go ballistic.

The virus is passed blood to blood, and anal sex makes that more convenient.
Promiscuity and lack of condom use are risky behaviors.
Having a penis makes a person more likely to spread the virus. Being penetrated by a penis makes a person more likely to get infected. People having sex with those in a population where there's already a high rate of infection makes a person more likely to contract the virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:08 PM

"Don, TIA, and a lot of their fellow clowns ...claim to want 'tolerance' for homosexuals, but have NONE for those who prefer the traditional nuclear family."
An absolutely groundless, pointless, supposed extrapolation of anything anyone here has said. To "prefer" a traditional family is by no means synonymous with ranting that no other combination can be considered a family.

"...but want to 'imitate' them, in you supposed 'same gender' family 'structure'." Is this supposed to mean that each of the individuals you refer to is now in a same-sex relationship, but wants to imitate the traditional family? Or is it supposed to mean that those individuals want to imitate same sex couples? There's no way to be sure from this mess of non-sentence structure, but either meaning would be absurd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:10 PM

"QUESTION: WILL anyone from here call the CDC? Toll-free number below. "


I don't know how to rephrase the fucking question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:11 PM

800-CDC-INFO (800-232-4636)

TOLL-FREE number.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:14 PM

What question should I ask the CDC? If the figures they published on their website are correct? I'll feel just a little bit stupid doing that, so maybe there's another way to phrase the question. (I'm not calling tonight anyway. Not terribly awake.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:21 PM

The question I would ask is this: "What percentage of HIV infections in the USA are incurred due to male-to-male sexual contact?"

Ther are gangs of CDC websites--many local authorities as it were. I would expect that because the number of gay individuals in SanFrancisc seems to be higher there than say Jacksonville, Florida, that local stats on new HIV infections may indeed be 53%. The question refers to the USA.

I simply do NOT believe the 53% figure. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I'd simply like something resembling a more definitive answer.

Thank you, Jeri.

I'm also grateful to you for offering. It seems thsi thread is one 'side' giving the gears to the 'other side'. Lots of opinions and few freakin' facts. When asked to seek the facts, neither side does. Go figure.

Anyway, thank you again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:27 PM

DonFirst:"And it's not politics, it's ethics. You've heard of it..haven't you?"

Well, I'm GLAD you brought that up! Mr.radio station manager!

When you decided what to broadcast, was it for ratings, so you pandered to your local demographic(like on here), or was there an actual ETHIC, in bringing the best you could bring?????

Being as you're up in the Washington state area, known for being pathetically 'liberal' above being logical, I guess you could peddle whatever mindless bullshit you could, saying it in any quasi-'hip' way, and get applauded for being 'on top of the story'....even if you sacrificed the FULL story, to appease your listening audience! Same with music...didn't you play a lot of commercial crap, so you could charge higher advertising fees???

I think you'd say ANYTHING to assure your 'popularity'(just like the business end of radio), without giving a damn, about its accuracy, taste, or lasting effects, on who is listening, ..just so long as the ratings are high, and the bucks keep coming in!!!

That's EXACTLY what you do on here...but that's all you've known to do...for years now!

Now I'm sure you'll come out with shit like how you're so 'right' like you did in that other thread, making a complete ass of yourself, in the process(which you got called on, and by others)...and how your 'station(read:computer blogging), is 'the best in the west', and how 'hip' and 'dialed in' you are. But the truth is, though you use broadcasting logic, and make things 'SOUND' like you know what you're talking about, therefore the 'host with the most', a great deal what you spout off about, on here, is complete bullshit!

You've heard myself AMONG others, point to the media, and blast it for being dishonest, corrupt, biased, and misleading..for profit..well good ol' pal...YOU ARE THE MEDIA!!! and your posts are the same mindless and almost persuasive blather, that we've all come to know about the media!!!!

Maybe you should take a commercial break, only to find out that the policies you're selling out to, the public can't afford the crap you're peddling...what are you going to do now???

Now I'm expecting to hear a broadcasted 'disclaimer', and proceed to demonize me, as you've tried so many times before, but I'm calling you on your practice, ethics, and media propaganda, that you're spewing forth, with complete abandon to any responsibility 'to its content'...( a phrase the media recites when they broadcast shit, that might be controversial, and get their listener audience's knickers in a twist, so they can say, that they're 'trying to bring all sides', in case, that audience thinks the station is actually as lame as the show they put on)...God no! don't think bad of us, we're only the radio station.(We can be lame, and get away with it).

Sorry Charlie....Don't talk to me about ethics, you 'sell out' con man for the highest bidder of advertising time!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:00 PM

There's no pathos to liberal thought; it espouses reciprocal dignity and tolerance. Your bitterness reveals its own sour roots.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:04 PM

Amos, you have no clue about me, or what you're talking about, in regards to me. Stifle it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM

WOW! That was quite a little outburst, there!

GfS, you're an idiot!

I never said anywhere that I was a radio station manager. You made that up, just like most of what you post.

I was an announcer at a classical music radio station. I put records on turntables, told the listeners what music I was about to play, then flipped the switch. Some of this (Monteverdi, Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, etc.) was selected by me, but most by the program director, Bob MacDonald. I read commercials (time sold by the sales department) and public service announcements at the times the station manager specified in the log. At the top of the hour, I read the news (torn from the teletype).

I had nothing to do with the advertising fees. That was a whole different department. Not my job.

You made up a whole fictional "Don First," which is not me. You can't even get my name right!

That's a real tour de force there, GfS! You have managed to combine the fallacies of argumentum ad hominem with "The Straw Man." Bravo!!

Not only are you barking up the wrong tree, you're lost in the wrong bloody forest!

"Counselor?" You, sir or madam as the case may be, are the one who is badly in need of psychological help. Your last couple of posts in particular more than amply demonstrate that you are losing your grip.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:14 PM

ConFirth must be typing away every excuse and reason he can..while you're at it, don't forget, to include how you were so SELF absorbed into YOU, that your first old lady kept you from being around the kid, that you never wanted..so you could pursue a career, in bullshitting people for profit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:46 PM

You know, they do say that people go into the field of work where they themselves are deficient. So maybe Guest/Far, Far from Sanity is a counselor. *g*

(Although I devoutly hope not.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:49 PM

Pure fiction, GfS. You take a few things I said about mayself (a marginal note's worth) and wrote a whole War and Peace-sized novel from that, making it all up as you go along. All pure fiction and bearing no resemblance whatsoever to anything in my real life.

You know, this would be funny if it weren't so sick! I must have really got up your nose for you to explode with this kind of frenzied hatred for me. I'm getting a bit worried about you.

Okay, I'll leave you alone for a few hours so you can calm down a bit. Barbara just got home from her job at the library, so we're going to have a bit to eat and watch a movie on DVD. I'll be off-line until tomorrow.

Try to relax and calm down.

Don Firth*

*Firth = Scottish place name, i.e. Solway Firth, Firth of Forth, Pentland Firth, etc. My great-grandfather came from Scotland with the Hudson's Bay Company in 1851 and eventually settled in the San Juan Islands (north of Seattle).


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:51 PM

Mebbe you don't think you are bitter. Your language says otherwise. I stifle NUFFINK!!! :D

Seriously, though, it is just possible you have substituted local conclusions for global judgement. An easy error to make.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 12:24 AM

From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 09 - 07:31 PM

Considering the vagueness of some of the verbiage used by Ake, especially GfS, and also Little Hawk, it's sometimes not real easy to follow what the hell they are trying to say, if anything. Perhaps that's the point.

And before someone attempts to cast aspersions on my ability to comprehend, let me remind them that I majored in English as well as Music and I have worked ("day jobs") as a technical writer (often trying to translate "governmentese" into plain English) and as a radio station news director.
Don Firth

Oh, you mean propaganda minister??? Professional SPINNER????...ONE WHO TAKES FACTS AND TURNS IT WHAT IS 'FIT FOR THE PUBLIC'S CONSUMPTION'?...to say whatever you want it to mean?..like on here???

When you said you just played 'classical music',are you lying now, or back then?..as the news(?) director.
You want to talk about ethics, man, let's go!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:04 AM

Here, let's put this in context:

NOW:

From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM

I was an announcer at a classical music radio station. I put records on turntables, told the listeners what music I was about to play, then flipped the switch. Some of this (Monteverdi, Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, etc.) was selected by me, but most by the program director, Bob MacDonald. I read commercials (time sold by the sales department) and public service announcements at the times the station manager specified in the log. At the top of the hour, I read the news (torn from the teletype)."

THEN:

From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 09 - 07:31 PM

"Considering the vagueness of some of the verbiage used by Ake, especially GfS, and also Little Hawk, it's sometimes not real easy to follow what the hell they are trying to say, if anything. Perhaps that's the point.

And before someone attempts to cast aspersions on my ability to comprehend, let me remind them that I majored in English as well as Music and I have worked ("day jobs") as a technical writer (often trying to translate "governmentese" into plain English) and as a radio station news director.
Don Firth"

Oh, you mean propaganda minister??? Professional SPINNER????...ONE WHO TAKES FACTS AND TURNS IT WHAT IS 'FIT FOR THE PUBLIC'S CONSUMPTION'?...to say whatever you want it to mean?..like on here???

When you said you 'just played classical music', are you lying now, or back then?..as the news(?) director.

So knock off the accusations, about 'homophobes' and 'bigotry'.
Your consistency of the truth, and representing things as they really are, are highly at question!!!
You want to talk about ethics, man, let's go!

(sigh)..trying to cop a lower plea,,,jeez!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:57 AM

So sorry to repeat myself, but the Sanity person (oh the irony) is still trying to wriggle out of what I said, or twist it perversely.

I focused on sexual acts because that was the turf on which the poster I was challenging had chosen to focus.

If you want to discuss relationships, let's go for it. I could tell you about the stable, loving, happy, lifetime relationship I have been in for fifteen years. But you wouldn't want to hear about that, as it contradicts your preferred images of how gay men are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 04:34 AM

Smedley,

I think you are making the same mistake that the rest of us keep making time and time again ... Doh!

And that is the assumption that GfS's comments have any bearing whatsoever on anyone elses point.

She lives in a whirlwind of desperate confusion and needs to justify her fears to feel safe.

A miserable existence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 04:45 AM

Jeri

From: Jeri - PM
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:08 PM

I think you have just about summed it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 04:46 AM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts? "

One practice that is not revolting is that in my experience, our gay friends make wonderful soufflés.

As to how this thread has gone...

There are some people on here that revolt me to be honest. But I bet none of them are gay. In fact, I would put money on the fact that the vast majority of them have religious beliefs.

Scroll up far enough and you will find a quote from some philosopher or other that I posted, and it seems so many screen scrolls ago, I might just repeat it. Cos a) I can and b) I like it.

Religion is like a municipal swimming baths. All the noise comes from the shallow end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM

"GfS, you're an idiot!"
No he's not - he's an out-of-the-closet homophobe and an apologist for wholesale child abuse.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:20 AM

Some of them make wonderful soufflés as StmngWillie remarked: others can be distinguished broadcaster & writer of books on the popular arts, in stable longterm CivicPartnership relationship with member of the Inner Magic Circle, which is case with a couple among my [still think really in terms of "our" to include my dear dead wife] dearest friends in the world. What's with these people [Ake, GfS, Paco et al] who imagine they must be up to something nefarious & unspeakable, instead of just getting on with their lives and careers like the rest of us?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 12:05 PM

I called CDC and managed to ask a couple questions they couldn't answer, so I got elevated. They're going to e-mail me, and I can follow up with them by e-mail.

"Over half (53%) of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men" is correct, but my questions were:

How did they know the infections were new? (Were there previous negative tests?)

Were members of other risk groups included in the 53%, i.e. IV drug users?

They aren't going to do anything more than speculate as to why the difference between the US and other places in the world are so different. It could be because there's a lot of gay/bisexual men who are HIV positive already in the community. In Africa, there may be a lot of heterosexuals who are HIV positive already in the community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM

Incredible, Gfs!

I didn't realize that I was as powerful and sinister as Ernst Stavro Blofeld, the arch villain from the James Bond novels/movies. But then media moguls like Rupert Murdock, Ted Turner, and me wield a lot of power and influence on world affairs. Nor did I realize that I had managed all by myself to turn Washington State into "The Soviet of Washington," that notorious "liberal fascist" state. Wow! I am so-o-o-o-o cool!

"When you decided what to broadcast. . . ."

To set the record straight, GfS, I was not the one who decided what to broadcast. I was an announcer. Announcers are the on-the-air voices who read commercials, read news (not write, read), and play music records. What kind of records depends on the orientation of the station, and that's determined by the owner of the station, and that was not me.

Prior to working at a classical music station in Seattle, I worked for a year at a small station in eastern Washington. There, I was an announcer and news director. As news director, my duties consisted of calling the local police station, sheriff's department, and hospital first thing in the morning to see if anything newsworthy had happened overnight. Other than that, on my board shift, I would read the latest national news headlines (off the teletype—Associated Press broadcast news service) at the top of each hour. Whatever I put on the air was vetted and approved by the station manager, who, as I said, was not me.

I also wrote and produced commercials. I wrote the copy from a fact sheet that the commercial time salesman handed me (what the sponsor, i.e. sporting goods store, restaurant, car repair shop, or whatever wanted said in the commercial), then read the copy, recording it onto a tape cartridge, often over appropriate background music. There, too, the station manager had to approve what I had done before it went on the air.

I had no control over station policy, what commercials were aired, nor, at this station, the music I played. It was all pre-programmed and on fifteen inch reels of tape. I just pressed the button that started and stopped the tape.

As I said above, at the Seattle classical music station, the only thing I had to do with news was to tear it off the teletype (once again, AP) and read about five minutes worth of national and local news at the top of the hour, every two hours, along with a weather report. My main duty was to select, announce, and play music records (once again, classical, not pop, rock, or elevator music. Classical.) that met the guidelines of the station format—that is, I selected and played classical records other than the featured works already selected by the program director, who, once again, was not me.

And I also played the listed recorded commercials or read commercial copy when the station log indicated that I should. In addition, I wrote down the meter readings from the transmitter at prescribed intervals, required by the Federal Communications Commission, and signed the transmitter log.

So that was me, diabolically propagandizing and ruling the world from behind a microphone.

I worked in radio for about seven years. It was fun, but I had an opportunity to make use of my writing skills (after all, I was an English major in college before I changed my major to Music) by working as a technical writer for the Bonneville Power Administration's energy conservation program (residential weatherization), so I took it. Also, it paid better than broadcasting and I no longer had to get up a 5:30 in the morning.

And your comments about my "first old lady" and my son are vicious and mean, totally inaccurate, and fail to consider the amount of emotional pain that was involved when she and I decided, due to circumstances beyond our control, that it was better—for her and the boy—that we not see each other again. I am just very happy that when he was grown up and learned the truth, he wanted to meet me. And we've been the best of friends—closer than most fathers and sons—ever since.

As a "counselor," you lack all human understanding and have a real mean streak in you. God help your clients! If any!

By the way, how's your life going these days? Your relationship with your father?

Crawl back under your rock. You're still a bigot.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 02:49 PM

Some UK stats.
(Our situation is different because we have immigrants from Africa where it infects more heterosexuals than in western countries.)

Although only about 1% of the total population of Britain are adult gay men, almost half of the people living with HIV are gay men.

This means gay men are about 90 times more likely to be living with HIV than other people.

Similarly, although African people account for about 1% of the population in Britain, 33% of the people living with HIV are African.

This means African people in Britain are about 50 times more likely to be living with HIV than other ethnic groups.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3856963.stm

(Without the African dimension, gay men would account for rather more than the 53% quoted for USA)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM

I wonder if Ake knows ...

... he might decide to prevent the unhealthy promotion in our schools of the idea that being African is healthy and normal.

He might suggest that children should be discouraged from being African as for us to do otherwise would be irresponsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:29 PM

This is interesting....
http://firozeshakir.blogspot.com/2009/07/world-without-hijras-would-suck.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:27 PM

Being African is not behavioural and catagorising them in this way would is racist......you should be ashamed of yourself and will almost certainly be drummed out of the "liberals"

That's just a little more of the irony that you proved yourself incapable of understanding when responding to posts from Sanity, Little Hawk and myself futher up the thread.
I've just been discussing Alan Bennett on another thread and you remind me of a Bennett English characterisation......complete with the ability to suspend reality, ignore that which is obvious and show self obsession on a massive scale.
You just brush off Keith's figures as if they didn't exist, although they support everything I have been saying about the need to have greater control over the disease.
Worse.....You attempt to turn these figures into a stupid, witless joke

Still waiting for that apology by the way!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 09:17 PM

Jeri, thank you very much.

Ake, you got it right--and if anywhere I implied you were fulla 'beans' I hereby apologize.

The statistic (53%) is shocking. I'd expect it means that gay men are not using condoms and that is causing the very high (compared to hetero) infection rate. Are there any efforts people are aware of to 'get the news' to the gay population? Seems that it's kinda stupid on people's part (in a country where condoms are fairly cheap) not to take the precaution, and I expect that gays are aware of the infection rate. What can be done?

Smedley, I am addressing this to you because I would guess you are more aware of 'gay' issues than I am. What happens where you are? Are there programs that include the gay community specifically and if so are those programs effective? Serious question for you there, buddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 09:27 PM

Guest.....no need for an apology from you.

We can all make mistakes and you were never abusive. You were right to question the figures....at first I thought them unbelievable, but they are correct and rising steadily

While these shocking figures are being ignored and people who point them out abused, there is little hope for the unfortunates affected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 09:31 PM

Thanks, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:08 PM

Bruce Springsteen Backs Gay Marriage in N.J.

"The Boss" is backing gay marriage in the Garden State.

Bruce Springsteen posted a statement on his Web site urging support of the gay marriage bill that's up for a vote in New Jersey's Senate on Thursday.

Springsteen wrote that he's long believed in and has "always spoken out for the rights of same-sex couples."

The native son says he agrees with Gov. Jon Corzine that marriage equality is a civil rights issue.

Gov.-elect Chris Christie is a big Springsteen fan. The Republican has said he would veto the bill.

A state Senate committee approved the bill by one vote on Monday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:32 PM

If it does get enacted into law in New Jersey, contrary to (what word should I use? Well, just fill in your own), the state will not break off from the rest of the continent and sink into the Atlantic.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 11:37 PM

Guest999:"Ake, you got it right--and if anywhere I implied you were fulla 'beans' I hereby apologize."

An honorable person is worth listening to. You've shown more class on here, than most of the know-it-alls!(know-all-o-gists).

There are still those on here who just ignore the FACTS, or spin the FACTS, and think they are changing reality!....only their own.

Hats of to you 999!
Warmest Regards!
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 12:15 AM

For someone who put in so much time and effort thinking up and writing all those vicious libels about me, the words "facts" and "honorable" ring a bit hollow coming from you, GfS.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 01:48 AM

Don,
Well, finally!.....The thread name is, "RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?"

Actually, it could have been named, "RE: BS: Death penalty for straight families?".....Why?

Because you've done nothing but character assassinate us, all in the course of 'politically correct' liberal bias....Why?

Because you walked away from yours, and your responsibility toward yours...Why?

Because you were selfishly seeking your own capitalistic and self image, and acceptance success....Why?

Because you thought you wouldn't be so bitter....Why?

Because your bitterness blindsided you, by your selfish, self serving, mixed with good ol' greed, and, ever since, you've been bitter about those who seek it, perhaps for the right reasons(like providing for their loved ones, their families), and its hard to look back, and without excuses, and acknowledge that you screwed up.....Why?

Because you still can't admit you were wrong....Why?

Because...well, jeez, you still can't....Why?

Because you'd rather be perceived as 'right', and maybe find a new rationalization for a new excuse...Why?

Because, no matter how many people you think who are convinced you are so wise and 'right', in your heart of hearts, I think, that you think, that you know better...and if you admit to anything you were wrong in, you might have to look deeper, and admit more.

I told you I was routing for you!
Sending you positive thoughts,
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 03:57 AM

In answer to 999's question a few posts ago: I live in a British city with a very large gay population. There are all sorts of programmes, campaigns, information sources and facilities which target high-risk groups (this category includes gay men but also others).

I have friends who work in HIV-related healthcare and they tell me that many gay men who are HIV-positive now live much longer because of the increased availability of medication (which doesn't of course cure the condition but helps to manage the symptoms). Indeed one HIV-positive friend of mine was diagnosed as long ago as 1990 but happily is still alive & pretty well thanks to the pills he takes.

The only downside of the availability of medication is that a foolish minority young gay men (late teens or thereabouts) think they don't need to worry about adopting safer sex practices because the medication is there and will 'sort them out'.

The cost of the medication is also outlandish - drug companies make *huge* profits out of HIV.

One of the most-at-risk groups these days is men who have sex with men but do not identify as gay (and are often in marriages with women). These people are less likely to access the programmes/campaigns/etc as they don't want to risk being labelled as gay (which I guess they're not, really).


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 04:33 AM

Obama said recently that he might start allowing immigrants with HIV.
Who would pay for their medication?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:54 AM

This debate still going on then?

Why hasn't this god guy struck lightning on the level headed ones amongst us yet then?

The fact