BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM

Uganda is debating a law which would criminalise homosexuality, including the death penalty in some circumstances. The law is being promoted, apparently, by American Evangelical missionaries. Would any of our resident Christians and/ or homophobes care to indicate whether they find this to their taste?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:33 PM

I'd rather see Uganda make it legal to demonstrate TO American Evangelical missionaries exactly what is at issue.....

(I seriously doubt you'll find anyone here willing to bite on your dare, Paul. Very few are willing to put their names to the most extreme positions)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:28 PM

I'm not up for this kind of baiting whoever does it.

Neither big nor clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:57 PM

Apparently? Well, that sounds apparently like possible conjecture. Have you any support for your hypothetical question?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

TimesOnline

Apparently a legitimate report on a real proposal.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:22 PM

Obviously there are Christians who would be horrified at this kind of thing.

Then there are some home-grown Christians that would secretly support this.

Much of homophobia is engendered by an interpretation of the text in the bible.

Also, Islamic fundamentalists execute homosexuals, too.

Something the two religions have in common.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:25 PM

When I was growing up in the 50's cartoons often showed missionaries in Africa being boiled in a big stew-pot. Not very politically correct these days, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM

Evil people will do Evil under any name they wish to use, Taliban does not represent Muslims, Nor does drinking the cool aid with poison or railing against others represent people of faith (Any Faith). Hate groups put on all kinds of masks to justify their actions of hate.

I think my faith is pretty solid and I am a Christian, and ya know what I scream loud and hard when gay people are discriminated against in any way shape or form in this life - as loud as I do when I hear of the injustice against minorities, women , or any other group. I have neighbors, friends and even family that is gay ...(And noone cares!)

you see for me and those I know with faith, As with flowers, God made a lot of wonderful variations in people. And those who try to use his name for hate purposes or political gains or reasons, know nothing of Faith.

Hate is not an option in Faith, it is just the opposite and those who do hate, have no faith so those people can label it Christian, Muslim anything they want but it is political and nothing more than an agenda to divide or try and justify their crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

Well, it would seem that MPs in Uganda have the right to introduce legislation, regardless of its prospects of passage, and individuals have the right to support it or not, regardless of their religious affiliation or the basic repugnance of the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

There may be a handful of American Evangelical missionaries who support such a proposal, but there may well be a hundred times as many who are appalled by it.

Painting with too broad a brush is not just unfair, it's unwise. People who do it usually end up with a lot of paint on themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM

Scroll down a bit for the story:
http://www.abibitumikasa.com/forums/afrikan-social-systems/41481-uganda-museveni-warns-against-homosexuality.html

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:27 PM

Some more info:
http://www.afrol.com/articles/16744

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:24 PM

olddude, that was beautifully written. Thank you from this non-Christian who also has gays in the family as well as many friends who are homosexual.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 11:06 PM

There is a connection to the Uganda law with the evangelical group of politicians in Washington, DC, on C street called The Family. We've discussed the Family in this thread.


From examiner.com
C Street politics: The Family sponsors death for homosexuals in Uganda
"Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni, and David Bahati, a key Ugandan lawmaker, are both active members of the Family, and the major force behind the legislation. Indeed, they represent the Family in Uganda. Bahati organizes the Family's Ugandan National Prayer Breakfast and oversees an African student leadership program designed to create future leaders for Africa, into which the Family has poured millions of dollars."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:18 AM

One of the most worrying aspects of this is the way that small yet powerful Evagelical groupings are starting to act like nineteenth-century imperialists - seeking to intervene in the affairs of non-Western nations as they see fit.   Intense moralism + imperialist arrogance = a very scary cocktail.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:27 AM

"There may be a handful of American Evangelical missionaries who support such a proposal, but there may well be a hundred times as many who are appalled by it."

I'm sure that's true, but I'm not hearing their cries of protest. Perhaps, like Olddude, they should be screaming loud and hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:31 AM

I am totally against the death penalty, whether for homosexual criminals or heterosexual criminals......with the possible exception of men who habitually rape or abuse babies and very small children.
They in my opinion are beyond human help.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:36 AM

"I'm sure that's true, but I'm not hearing their cries of protest. Perhaps, like Olddude, they should be screaming loud and hard."

So who's crties of protest are you hearing?


... what's that sound? .... wait ... I heard a pin drop ...

That was the sound of the christians not protesting.

Everyone else was just being sileent as a mark of respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:37 AM

Tolerance and acceptance of the gay community has yet to reach most non western countries.
The Anglican Church is having real problems persuading its African communicants to join our acceptance of gay priests and bishops.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM

Death penalty : when have two wrongs (and I do NOT mean homosexuality) ever made a right ?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:35 AM

Yes, Bryn: but that applies, not only to capital punishment, but to the entire concept of punishment in general and thruout — ALL punishment consists of replying to one wrong with another: doing wrong to the offender by imposing on him an experience he would prefer to evade; otherwise it wouldn't BE a punishment. It is a self-evidently terrible idea. Unfortunately nobody has yet come up with a better one.

In my teaching days I would say to a new class I was meeting for the first time, "I intend there to be no punishments in my lessons" — at which they would smirk self-satisfiedly. After a pause I would add, "So - you begin."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:40 AM

"Tolerance and acceptance of the gay community has yet to reach most non western countries."
Doesn't 'tolerance' imply that homosexuality is a crime or a weakness?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:07 AM

I think it would be helpful to 'Christianity' (and to Christians) as a world-wide religion if moderate denominations (ie: most of them) were to make some form of formal collective denunciation/condemnation of extremist Christian groups who advocate murdering certain doctors/praying for other people to die/murdering gay people, and so-on.
A kind of 'not in the name of Christ' sorta deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:08 AM

"So who's crties of protest are you hearing?"

Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the media who are covering this event....will that do for a start?

Now, your point was what, exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:48 AM

Pardon me for asking, but would somebody please point me toward the mention of missionaries, American, Evangelical, or other.

I've followed the links, and I don't think I've missed anything, but I saw no indication of foreign input in support.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:30 AM

To tarnish all Christians with the same brush is wrong. There are things in most Holy Books, I'd imagine, which have been written by those with 'agendas'. The vast majority of people have the common sense and a sense of love and peace that comes so much of their Holy Books.

Those who seek to use any form of religion, purely for their own evil means, as Dan has mentioned above, should be rooted out. And yes, I'm with Crow Sister here, I think a 'Not in the name of Christ' campaign, would be wonderful...as would 'Not in the name of Allah' too.

Most religions are based on peace and love, and most who choose to follow those religions choose to follow that path.

Please do not therefore brand ALL Christians, Muslims, Jews..etc.. as feeling this way.

The British National Party is er...British, but they do not stand for what I believe, even though I am British.

Common sense is needed here, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:41 AM

"Islamic fundamentalists execute homosexuals, too.
Something the two religions have in common."

No, just something fundamentalists have in common.

(to my mind, neither group deserves the description "religious")

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:24 AM

The most homophobic faith is probably the judaic although chistianity and islam too are not devoid of this trait,.In any event no religion has the right to intrude into the bed chamber in matters involving consenting adults. if they choose to practice their filthy habits in the privacy of their own apartments then its no-ne else's business!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:37 AM

Can someone please point me to the part of the New Testament which demands the death penalty for any 'crime' or 'offence', whether by homo- or hetero-sexuals, Christians or Non-Christians, white men, black men or, for that matter, blue men?

If it's there, I've never seen it, and it's wrong to tar all Christians with the same brush as a few who hold extreme (and fundamentally un-Christian) views. Just the same as it's wrong to brand all Muslims as violent, murderous infidel-haters. Both are patently untrue.

Christians all over the world, all the time, announce their opposition to all sorts of wrongs and injustices, including killing, by the acts of living, practising and publically acknowledging, their Faith. There are millions who do just that, just as there are millions from other Faiths, and of no Faith, who live their lives as shining examples of goodness and humanity.

The good guys outnumber the bastards by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to one. Unfortunately, it's always the bastards that we get to hear about, and the shit they fling about always seems to land on the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:41 AM

The death penalty (as a maximal penalty, depending on the case) for homosexuality exists in the following countries:

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Nigeria, Mauritania

I do not see a pronounced Christian influence in these countries.

If some extreme Christians want to follow that example that reminds me of the position towards evolution: The most extreme rejection is shared by Christian and Muslim fundamentalists (literalists).

"When you criticize only one group for things that are done by all groups, you are practicing hypocrisy as well as bigotry" (CarolC)

Wolfgang)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 09:08 AM

I'm a Christian, and I don't like this idea that they might do in Uganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 09:19 AM

Mark, Chapter 7: 8-11: "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men. And he said to them: 'You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."

It seem to me that Jesus quotes Moses approvingly here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:45 AM

Don, just google "C Street The Family Uganda homosexuality" and you will find many articles about the support of this law and the people behind it in Uganda by the Republican politicians in the US who are member of the "Family", an evangelical cult in DC on C Street.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:51 AM

Ummmmm, wasn't Moses in the Old Testament, Wolfgang? I.e Before Christ? The teachings of the Old Testament differ greatly from the New Testament. Or are German Bibles different to English ones?

And it seems to me that Jesus (if Mark was indeed quoting Jesus - I'll check that when I get home) was demonstrating to the Jews that they had put aside (many of) God's commands, and using the extreme example of putting to death anyone who cursed his parents to press home his point. I don't see any approval, tacit or otherwise, in there.

But then I'm not seeking to see that approval. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM

So who's crties of protest are you hearing?


... what's that sound? .... wait ... I heard a pin drop ...

That was the sound of the christians not protesting.

Everyone else was just being sileent as a mark of respect.

Not too many Mudcatters, it seems to me, are in a position to know what the 'common' Christian thinks about this. I know that my sister's church is discussing it and asking how they can help get across the message of love and acceptance.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Alice
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:42 PM

This all comes back to the political agenda of the cult on C Street called The Family. Google and read about it. I was raised a Christian (Catholic) although I'm not a member of any religion now, and I don't think most Christians would find what is happening in Uganda or within "The Family" to 'their taste'.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM

Well I cannot speak for everyone, but I sure can speak for me, I have rattled cages where it helps most over and over. I know the Clintons, my daughter worked for Hillary in DC when she was a senator, My message went out quite clearly on a direct path. And I am absolutely sure the real faith community will be heard , that is all faiths.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM

Thanks for the links Alice.

Christ, that rats' nest needs fumigating, doesn't it?

They make Fred Phelps look like a boy scout.

Seems like a good argument for the real Christian Churches to make a very loud show of excommunicating the whole vicious evil lot.

What happened to the popular myth that the USA separates religion fom government?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:00 PM

I think that the Ugandan Government has the right to pass the laws as they see fit. But they should not stop at gays. What about the fornicators? The adulterers? The shrimp eaters? I am sick and tired of "Christians" who treat Leviticus as and a la carte menu while completely ignoring the message of Jesus. Executing people for their sins is not loving thy neighbor as thyself.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Tinker
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:01 PM

Here is one church speaking out...House of Deputies president condemns proposed Uganda anti-homosexuality legislation

Churches that are not making fundamentalist statements often get little press coverage for their stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM

Wolfgang is probably right in quoting Jesus as approving of the death penalty in that case, though I know of no Christian administration which imposes it for cursing one's parents. I think he also said something about millstones. That's not the point. The thinking Christians have gone a long way beyond the letter of the Bible, old or new, and have accepted- proclaimed- that what was offered was not a prescription or a set of inviolable rules, but a framework to guide thinking. Christians of this sort have been at the forefront of many of the great campaigns- against slavery, against capital punishment, for social justice, for civic freedoms, against poverty, for equality. But there still seems to be something of the attitude that diehard Communists used to have in the seventies- to deny the evidence of Stalinism in their case. It was all propoganda, you can't believe the enemy. So some people seem to see any criticism of the fundies as criticism of themselves.

It seems to me that "Christian" is not even a useful label- You can't tell anything about a person's beliefs from it, as it encompasses the range from one extreme to another. This is one of the extremes; I'm very happy that most Christians here are much closer to the opposite pole. And it's nice to see people with the courage to speak out on the subject, even if it exposes the raw truth that you can't have unity with polar opposites.

I think the Ugandan obscenity is best seen in terms of a movement which is competing for members, rather than trying to lead them. In societies in which men feel they have to prove their masculinity- often because they are economically marginalised in post- colonial societies- they may well suffer from gender insecurity and fear of being identified as un- masculine. Failing to support hardliners coukld be one way of avoiding the charge of softness.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:40 PM

Recent events in Ireland are, in my opinion, the strongest case yet for the church (any church) having no say whatever in the sexual behaviour of the people - ever again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:48 PM

Remember...Jesus, whoever and whatever he was..or wasn't.. didn't write books. People wrote what they HEARD about him, from 70 to 250 years after his death. In fact, most of the Christian bible was compiled in very strange ways, and a lot of it says what certain clerics and those who directed those clerics wanted said.

You can find almost anything in it you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM

I do not recognize that translation Wolfgang. Shouldn't it be "Shall die" or "let them die" rather than "Must be put to death?"

But even so, the context of Mark 7 clearly shows that Jesus is pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, he is not telling them to go out a kill those who openly disagree with their mothers. He is telling them to lay off his people for such a minor thing while they let more clear and blatant sins go unpunished. To me this is a major implication of Christ's message, one that is often ignored by those most loudly professing to follow him.

Do you recall "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Do you believe that he meant that mercy only apply to harlots? It applies to all sinners. Christians forgive. They do not mete out punishment. Punishment is the purview of government.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM

I wrote about this last week. If that is what the people of Uganda want, they should have it.

If on the other hand this is what the C Street family wants for the people of Uganda but the people do not, it would be biblical justice to execute one C Street family member for every gay Ugandan executed.

starting with Inhoff

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM

Jim,

"Doesn't 'tolerance' imply that homosexuality is a crime or a weakness?"

Not always.

It could mean that someone feels uncomfortable or finds it hard to believe or empathise with homosexuals, yet they accept and respect that homosexuals have equal rights and are therefore accepting of them.

My closest friends are 90% compatible with me. I tolerate the other 10% with no difficulty.

Do you see how I am using the word?

It doesn't always have to be a negative.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

There is no room in old time religion for either tolerence or positive spin. Zero Tolerence - No Spin!

This year we must re double our efforts to ban the pornographic secular Christmas carols that are a Abomination to our Lord!!

Strike from thy lips "Don we now our gay apparel"
The word gay appears in no fewer than 4 carols and must be purged and destroyed...and that goes for that fruity reindeer Prancer too.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM

Leveller, regarding your post of 01 Dec 09 - 03:27 a.m.—and to others—there are plenty of Christians who are speaking out strongly on this matter. But apparently, they are far less interesting to the news media than are those relatively few loudmouths who want gays lynched.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:16 PM

Whta would one expect from the country that gave the world Idi Amin?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 12:26 AM

Names, please. Who are the American evangelicals who support his proposed law?