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BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM
Smedley 26 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 11 - 05:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM
mauvepink 24 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM
akenaton 23 Mar 11 - 06:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 11 - 04:51 AM
akenaton 26 Mar 10 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,en passe 26 Mar 10 - 12:12 PM
Ebbie 25 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Mar 10 - 10:13 AM
akenaton 24 Mar 10 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Mar 10 - 03:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 10 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Mar 10 - 07:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Keith A 21 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM
Stringsinger 20 Mar 10 - 03:37 PM
akenaton 20 Mar 10 - 02:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Mar 10 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Mar 10 - 03:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Mar 10 - 07:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Mar 10 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 10 - 04:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Mar 10 - 05:42 AM
GUEST 15 Mar 10 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 02:27 PM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 02:07 PM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM
akenaton 14 Mar 10 - 01:37 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 10 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 11:07 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 10:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 10:04 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 07:06 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 06:54 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 06:43 AM
Royston 14 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 10 - 06:05 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:44 AM

Not you Smedley.
We cross posted.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM

Despicable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM

Bloody hell, if there was EVER a thread that didn't need dredging up from the Mudcat seabed.....

But since it has been, in keeping with what it was originally about, it might be of interest to some that the proposed law in Uganda has now lost any chance of being passed. Good news for once, though the issue of endemic and severe homophobia in that country remains alive and well.

Now Keith, could you please go back to your 'Muslim' thread, as it still need several hundred more posts to reach the size of this old monster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:06 AM

Not surpised to find you here Keith, cuttin'-an-pastin' away - along with your friend Ake.
And certainly not surprised to find that your first appearance and recurring theme on this thread was to link homosexuality with race.
Shouldn't you be at a Beirkeller rally somewhere, or maybe on a 'Pakie-bashing' mission?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM

Of course, there is no disgrace in being wrong about a complex issue.
What is not forgiveable is that instead of just making their case, they tried to undermine and discredit those of us who were actually right with constant accusations of bigotry.

Lox and Jim Carrol have been using the same disgraceful tactic on the Muslim Prejudice thread right up until yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

The latter part of the thread was about the comparative risks of HIV.
Royston and Lox claimed that the risk to MSMs was declining, and hetero infections were overtaking them.

It was not true then, and the trend has continued in the opposite direction since.
They were wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

Am not sure what the stats and this particular branch on the news has to do with OP or the topic of hanging homosexuals.

More significant news was released yesterday about the rights of gay people in other countries, more in keeping with the thread perhaps

85 countries sign UN gay rights resolution

Somewhat tongue in cheek it may be worth reiterating Women who have sex with men are most likely to contact HPV and thus risk their chances of cervical cancer. Women who have sex with men and get pregnant risk death from associated pregnancy risks and Women die having abortions, men never do! Now people are at risk too of esophageal cancer due to HPV. No doubt about it. Unprotected sex is risky without doubt for anyone having sex with men!!! Now no-one is suggesting that women should not have sex with men but it is worth noting the unprotectedness element is what spreads disease and makes it very risky indeed

Smoking certainly kills. Maybe they should invent a condom for cigarettes as so many die from cancers and and heart disease associated with smoking. Driving and even being a pedestrian is quite risky too

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:55 PM

HPA (UK) figures and recommendations.

.
                  
Routine HIV tests for areas with high levels
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"A doubling of new HIV infections in the UK in the past decade is leading experts to tell GPs to offer testing to all adult male patients in some areas," reported BBC News.

The news report is based on the latest data, which showed that new diagnoses of HIV acquired in the UK have nearly doubled in 10 years, from 1,950 cases in 2001 to 3,780 in 2010. The figures, published today, have been released by the Health Protection Agency.

The data shows that men who have sex with men remain the group most at risk, with new cases rising by 70% (1,810 in 2001 to 3,080 in 2010).

The figures have been published in connection with new guidance by NICE. The guidance is aimed at increasing the uptake of HIV testing in this group.

The guidance suggests that regular, routine testing is offered to all men who register with a GP surgery in areas that have high levels of HIV. Routine testing will also be offered to men who live in areas that have a large community of men who have sex with men. It is also recommended that men in these areas are offered HIV tests when admitted to hospital.



What is the news based on?
The figures for the numbers of new HIV diagnoses have been released by the Health Protection Agency (HPA), an independent UK health watchdog, set up to protect the public from threats to their health from infectious diseases and environmental hazards.

The guidance comes from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), which provides guidance, sets quality standards and manages a national database to improve people's health and prevent and treat ill-health.



What are the aims of the new NICE guidelines?
To increase HIV testing to help reduce undiagnosed infection and prevent transmission among men who have sex with men. The guidance suggests that healthcare professionals offer regular, routine testing to all men in high-prevalence areas, and to those who live in areas with large communities of men who have sex with men.



Why focus on men who have sex with men?
Men who have sex with men remain the group most at risk of becoming infected with HIV. In 2009, there were 6,630 people diagnosed with HIV in the UK. Over 40% of these new diagnoses were among men who have sex with men.

In total, there are about 30,800 men who have sex with men living with HIV in the UK. It is estimated that nearly 9,000 of these men are unaware that they are infected.



What areas have a high prevalence of HIV?
For these guidelines, high prevalence was defined as areas with more than two diagnosed cases per 1,000 people. The HPA has produced a table showing which primary care trusts fall within this definition.



Why increase testing?
Generally, the sooner a person with HIV is diagnosed the better their outcome. HIV can be successfully managed with antiretroviral therapies. However, if someone is diagnosed late it's more likely that the virus will have already seriously damaged their immune system. Late diagnosis is one of the biggest contributing factors to illness and death for people with HIV. Almost a third of people in the UK who are diagnosed as HIV positive are diagnosed late.

By getting an early diagnosis, people with HIV will have better health and a longer life expectancy.

Lack of a diagnosis also increases the likelihood that the virus will be passed onto other sexual partners.



What is the advice to GPs for routine HIV tests?
NICE advises that HIV testing should be offered and recommended to all men who:

•register with a practice in an area with a large community of men who have sex with men
•register with a practice in an area with a high HIV prevalence (high prevalence means more than two diagnosed cases per 1000 people)
•disclose that they have sex with other men
•are known to have sex with men and have not had a HIV test in the previous year
•are known to have sex with men and disclose that they have changed sexual partner or engaged in high-risk sexual practices
•have symptoms that may either indicate HIV, or that HIV is part of the differential diagnosis
•are diagnosed with, or request screening for, a sexually transmitted infection
•live in a high-prevalence area and are undergoing blood tests for another reason
HIV testing should also be offered to men who are admitted to hospital with the following circumstances:

•are admitted in areas with a high prevalence of HIV
•disclose that they have sex with men
•have symptoms that may indicate HIV, or HIV is part of the differential diagnosis


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 04:51 AM

Men who have sex with men remain the group most at risk of becoming infected with HIV.

New diagnoses in this group alone have increased by 70% in the past 10 years.

There are more than 30,000 men who have sex with men living with HIV in the UK and experts estimate nearly a third of these are currently undiagnosed and unaware that they are infected.

Another high risk group that would benefit from increased HIV testing, according to NICE, is the black African community living in England.

In 2009, more than 2,000 black Africans were diagnosed with an HIV infection; one-third of all new diagnoses in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12817564


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 06:04 PM

Now I'M confused......Is it racist to call Ugandans homophobic?

Fuck it! I'm away for a pint!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,en passe
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:12 PM

Sadly Zimbabwe PM rejects gay rights move the original topic of the thread is still very much on the agenda :-(

The language of hate is never far away


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM

Ye gods. Give it up, will you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:13 AM

To wind up the debate started by Royston on 10th Jan.
He claimed a change in pattern of infection.
Not true.
He claimed that it was starting to spread among heteros.
Not true except among expat Africans.
He claimed that heteros disproportionately effected by STIs.
Not true.
He claimed the non existant rise among "filthy heterosexuals" was due to their lack of morals and disgusting sexual hygiene.
Bigot.
He claimed only about 2% of MSMs get AIDS.
Over 10% become infected.
Everything he ever said about AIDS was wrong, and I believe he knew it to be false all along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:00 AM

On the first chime of "Big Ben" all hostilities will cease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:36 AM

Hey Keith.....Hi!

Have all the bullets stopped flying?

Regards,
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:05 AM

Royston, you were always telling me to "keep it going" but you are giving me no more ludicrous, deceitful assertions to unravel.
Shall I just summarise our part of the debate and be finished?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:07 PM

Don T: "Quit giving orders, OK? You have NO authority here."

Is that an order, sir?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM

Stringsinger, my reply was abrupt and lacking compassion.
It was not meant to be and I agree with your sentiments.
It is just that since Jan 10th, I have been trying to correct false assertions and to find the evidence to establish the true situation.
In return I have had nothing but ridicule, abuse and insults.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM

Stringsinger,
In this thread it has been shown that in UK
It is not spreading among heteros, except in the new African communities.
Experts advise MSMs to be tested every 6 months.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:37 PM

The death penalty has been shown to be ineffective as a deterrent to homicide.
As for homosexuality, this is a human right that is biologically determined and to
put people to death because of it is no different than any other type of dictatorship
that executes those who disagree with the dictator for any reason.

One of the chief causes of AIDS is drug use. Legalizing drugs and helping those who
are addicted would go a long way to dealing with this epidemic.

Homosexuals can be as judicious and monogamous as heterosexuals and don't require any special policing. AIDS is now transmitted by hetero as well as homo sexuals.

It will be impossible to determine exactly how many people are afflicted with AIDS.
Those who are because they are targeted will keep their statistics under wraps.
The only way to get people to come forward is to "decriminalize" the problem.

For this, needless to say, every civilized country needs to decriminalize homosexual
or lesbian activity and respect the rights of loving couples anywhere to engage in a
monogamous or continuous relationship based on mutual respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 02:12 PM

Don has every "right" to practice stupidity GFS

You are a "stupidiphobe" and Don is an acknowledged expert!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 10:26 AM

""GfS: Quit being stupid, OK?""

Quit giving orders, OK? You have NO authority here.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:21 PM

Don T: "Ignoring the lousy grammar, and making some kind of sense out of this rant, I gather you are talking about hetero Keith A, who is the only one minimising dangers here."

GfS: Quit being stupid, OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:37 AM

I like to think that I am liberal Don, but there is no liberal virtue in concealing any known facts about infection.
Is there?

I am bemused that you say I minimise dangers.
I feel that I have gone to extraordinary lengths to define and quantify the dangers.
Could you explain your criticism please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:20 AM

""Why doesn't everyone who is all for minimizing the effects of 'how many get what', and 'why', and with the odds, you've figured out, convince yourselves that there is hardly any chance you won't get anything, because its all safe now, it's your civil right,too""

Ignoring the lousy grammar, and making some kind of sense out of this rant, I gather you are talking about hetero Keith A, who is the only one minimising dangers here.

He won't thank you for calling him a liberal though. Akenaton would never back him up again.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM

The first problem is your source for the proportion of MSMs.
You used a NATSAL survey that you yourself said had too small a sample (FEB 5th).
You could have used the other NATSAL survey that was nearly double the size, but it found barely a half as many MSMs.
So that did not suit you.
You probably started off with an overestimate.
You then applied that proportion to the whole population.
That means you are counting in thousands of children who are not yet sexually active, and old men who are no longer sexually active.
All these are not at risk.
You thus overestimate the number of active MSMs thereby underestimating the risk factor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 04:15 PM

The official figure for the number of MSMs infected was inconveniently far bigger than your own figure.
To persist with it showed arrogance and a determination to push your own agenda.
As an honest man, you would want to know where your calculation went wrong.
I will tell you anyway.
Meanwhile, 2100 is there if anyone wants it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM

Royston, you said "The HPA figures are for one slice of men aged 15-44. They are totally different. It is a truth, but it is a partial truth."

Are there any MSMs beow age 15?
It IS a partial truth, because no one gets better as they get older.
The numbers in the higher age group are EVEN HIGHER, ignoring the fact that AIDS is reducing their number by killing them.

I am a little man, but neither toxic nor an idiot.
You seek to conceal the size of the epidemic.
I seek the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:42 AM

Been gone so long, forgot to sign in right...... (Joe, hi!..you can delete the one with just 'Guest', it was me. Thank you)


Gosh..I've been pretty busy..and spending a LOT of time in the studio, so I was away, for a bit.....

So, you're still arguing over the statistics? Mercy! I've got a great idea...

Why doesn't everyone who is all for minimizing the effects of 'how many get what', and 'why', and with the odds, you've figured out, convince yourselves that there is hardly any chance you won't get anything, because its all safe now, it's your civil right,too, and the road to eternal bliss....and fuck everything in sight, with a smile on your face,..because you felt 'right'! You won't catch anything because, sheesh,.. you fancy yourself a liberal, and everything is O.K., and you are exempt from consequences, and common sense!

Oh well,.....Hey, Hi, All
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:39 AM

Gosh..I've been pretty busy..and spending a LOT of time in the studio, so I was away, for a bit.....

So, you're still arguing over the statistics? Mercy! I've got a great idea...

Why doesn't everyone who is all for minimizing the effects of 'how many get what', and 'why', and with the odds, you've figured out, convince yourselves that there is hardly any chance you won't get anything, because its all safe now, it's your civil right,too, and the road to eternal bliss....and fuck everything in sight, with a smile on your face,..because you felt 'right'! You won't catch anything because, sheesh,.. you fancy yourself a liberal, and everything is O.K., and you are exempt from consequences, and common sense!

Oh well,.....Hey, Hi, All
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:27 PM

Royston, in replying to your assertion that many AIDS victims now survive much longer (which is true) I pointed out that Deaths within the first year of diagnosis accounted for 18% (29/159) of all deaths among MSM in 2007.
That is a fact, and pertinent to our discussion.
No need for a vast cut and paste that no one will read.

No lies from me. Ever.

My "but not certain" statement.
You had stated as fact that most MSMs were not infected, but you had not established that.
You still have not.
I have looked into it and I am now confident that it is true.
No lies from me. I just like to be sure of the facts.

You say I try to count the dead as living.
It is convenient for you that death removes infected people from the statistics.
I am concerned with the numbers of people who succumb.
Those who have died are entitled to be counted.
No lies from me. I regard it as deceitful to try to hide the dead.

You say the median age of death tells us nothing about the future.
I was concerned with the present situation.
For the future, the median age is creeping up.
No lies from me.

Kevin de Cock.
Have you decided to reinstate him?
I thought everything he said had been repudiated.
He made one passing mention of "networks" but his explanation of what he meant, multiple and concurrent sexual partners, is really a description of behaviour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM

Keith, why don't you call the Lighthouse Centre in Ladbroke Grove (The Terence Higgins Trust centre)

They will probably confirm that all the gay men who come to them for health and counseling services are HIV+

So that would probably have you concluding that all gay men are HIV+ and all HIV+ men are gay.

Idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:07 PM

And for the last time, the NATSAL survey does INDICATE how many MSM's there are.

6.3% of men at least admit to having had genital sex with another man.

63mm people or thereabouts in the population

Half of them are men - 31.5mm

6.3 of 31.5mm is 1,984,500 MSM's

It's not perfect, it is an indication.

The HPA figures are for one slice of men aged 15-44. They are totally different. It is a truth, but it is a partial truth.

I would never (and did not) put the NATSAL derived figure forward on its own - but it is a fair observation.

You, on the other hand, only want to count those MSM's at peak risk - discounting everyone else, and you want to add in the dead to boost your prejudiced view of this awful problem and your odious opinion which amounts to an assertion that gay men make up a tiny group of deviants who are all either dead or dying and deserved it. You toxic little man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM

Yeah, you asked for it Keith.

The full context of your misleadingly selected and clipped quotes from the HPA about AIDS deaths.

"Late HIV diagnoses, AIDS and death

In 2007 19% (499/2,679) of MSM were diagnosed after the point at which
treatment should have begun (CD4 cell count less than 200 cells per mm3), a reduction from 30% (417/1,384) seen in 1998.

Between 2003 and 2007, late diagnosis (CD4<200) was associated with a 13-fold increase in mortality within a year of diagnosis, compared to those diagnosed more promptly.

Deaths within the first year of diagnosis accounted for 18% (29/159) of all deaths among MSM in 2007. Late diagnosis is more common among older MSM and those diagnosed outside London [3].

Since 1996 new diagnoses of AIDS and deaths (from any cause) among HIV
positive individuals have remained low. In 2007, there were 193 cases of AIDS reported among MSM, of which 74% (142) were made at the same
time as their HIV diagnosis. MSM accounted for 32% (159/495) of deaths
among all HIV-infected people in 2007. The median age of death was 47,
with 57% occurring in those aged over 50."


Lie after lie upon lie with you Keith. And I was spot on when I identified this latest one even befor needing to check it out.

All because - if you're honest - you want to round 'em all up and drag 'em down the clinic.

You lie and you distort and you twist and turn to support your prejudices while claiming some sort of saintly impartiality.

Well you are busted mate.

Keep going, just you keep going.

Are you going to answer the points put to you about your other lies?

We are still waiting to hear your explanation or your withdrawal of the rumination that it is "not certain" that only a minority of MSM's are HIV+

We want to know why - on a quest for understanding the overall prevalence of MSM's living with HIV - you keep trying to distort the size of the group and try to discount large numbers of healthy people and try to count the dead as living. And you say you are not prejudiced?

We are waiting for your acceptance that the median age of death for HIV+ men is the median age to date and can't possibly tell us anything about the future, in view of the effects going forward of treatment which is giving people diagnosed today, a normal life expectancy.

If Kevin de Cock and I were so stupid as to think that sexual networks - all other factors being equal - were the most important determinators of HIV risk, then how do you explain that for gay men in the UK, the biggest differentiator of HIV prevalence is where you happen to live?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM

ANTI retrovirals!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM

Sadly Don, all HIV positive people do go on to develope AIDS.
Retrovirals just delay it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:37 PM

Don....I dont understand you, why do you continue to print lies about what I say, when one only has to scan up the page to read what I actually wrote.

I did not say any grouping was too small to be tested, what I did say was that I would be in favour of universal testing, but that testing everyone, like very large groups with very small infection rates would be a waste of money which could be better used on other prevention methods like contact tracing.

I am in favour of targeting small groups with very high percentage of infections, like male homosexuals, African immigrants, perhaps some other immigrant groups as the Aids picture becomes clearer, intravenus drug users and sex workers.

Is that clear enough for you?
If Aids figures continue to rise amongst "at risk" groups you can be absolutely sure that these measures will be implimented....there is no doubt of that....those who make the laws can also change them, when it suits them to do so.

Dont lecture me on the problems of drug abuse, I know better than most what is in the interests of addicts.....and what is in the interests of idiot political dogmatists!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM

""10.6% will be a great underestimate of the proportion who have succumbed because by age 44, half have ALREADY DIED.""

If you are talking about HIV Keith, you are wrong because only 50% of HIV positives actually develop AIDS at all.

If you are talking about AIDS sufferers, you are still wrong because The figures you are using relate to HIV diagnoses, and the number of AIDS cases won't become clear for approximately ten years, and maybe (with improved treatment) not even then.

In short, Royston's figures, culled from the HPA, are bound to be much closer to the truth than your flawed and slanted claims.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM

Don,
some groupings are too small to be worth testing.

This is true.
Anyone can get bowel cancer, but only over 60s are screened.

With finite resources, testing low risk groups means you can not test so many from high risk groups.
That means more cases are missed, and lives needlessly lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:09 PM

""Don....I would have absolutely no objection to the universal testing of immigrants but the cost would be prohibitive and the exercise would be of very limited value, given the low numbers of infections in other groups(of immigrants)
In much the same way, I would support the testing and contact tracing of other "at risk" groups like male homosexuals and "junkies"( your very non PC discription of intravenus drug users)

I wonder why your "liberal" ideology does not extend to these un fortunate people......not flavour of the month obviously!
""

No, Ake, not my description, merely a word I used to highlight the attitude you display toward these people.

You profess to have their best interests at heart, yet would selectively compel them to undergo testing which is illegal in the UK for very godd reasons.

This is biased and discriminatory. Anyone who is HIV positive poses a risk to those indulging un unsafe sex, yet your attitude is to say some groupings are too small to be worth testing.

Your agenda is utterly transparent, but fortunately the laws of his country prevent bigots from forcing their ideas upon others.

Nobody in the UK can, or should be forced to accept any medical procedure, and it is a good thing too. It prevents the next logical discrimination, namely euthanasia for those you wish to remove from your proposed healthy culture.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:54 PM

I will not overstate my own case.
Probably approaching the Great Plague but not The Black Death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:07 AM

Nothing of substance!
I have just shown that you have been deceiving the forum with fake statistics, and shown how you faked it.
I have just shown that the epidemic among MSMs, which you keep trying to understate, is comparable to the greatest plagues in history.

Plenty of substance there.
You just have no reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:33 AM

So, nothing of substance to add then, Keith?

Jolly good.

We'll treat this as finished then.

I have nothing more to say to you either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:04 AM

1.6% and the HPA figure can not both be true, but you kept putting them together to detract from the true HPA figure.
No one else spouts your ridiculous figure.
You constructed it yourself out of bogus figures, i.e " The NATSAL indicates that there are AT LEAST 1,984,500 MSM's"

No it does not.
Nothing like that.
A ludicrous over estimate to give you your ludicrous under estimate of the proportion of MSMs infected.
I had put you straight on that before, but you hoped to get it past us again.

I see a change in your position.
Having been proved wrong on everything you have claimed about AIDS, you are now saying that AIDS is not so serious anyway!
What happened to the caring Royston who though every case a tragedy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:06 AM

I don't intend to answer your dispute over the 1.6% figure again. I have given the same clear answer many times. People know my view, they know yours.

How about you answer some of the points put to you.

We are still waiting to hear your explanation or your withdrawal of the rumination that it is "not certain" that only a minority of MSM's are HIV+

We want to know why - on a quest for understanding the overall prevalence of MSM's living with HIV - you keep trying to distort the size of the group and try to discount large numbers of healthy people and try to count the dead as living. And you say you are not prejudiced?

We are waiting for your acceptance that the median age of death for HIV+ men is the median age to date and can't possibly tell us anything about the future, in view of the effects going forward of treatment which is giving people diagnosed today, a normal life expectancy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:54 AM

Oh, just one thought that occurred to me, Keith.

If Kevin de Cock and I were so stupid as to think that sexual networks - all other factors being equal - were the most important determinators of HIV risk, then how do you explain that for gay men in the UK, the biggest differentiator of HIV prevalence is where you happen to live?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:43 AM

Keith. Your quote: "Deaths within the first year of diagnosis accounted for 18% (29/159) of all
deaths among MSM in 2007." (HPA)"


Can you tell me which document that came from?

I'm concerned that you might have selectively clipped that from an observation on the dangers of late diagnosis.

If you did then I will wish to have a field-day at the further expense of your credibility.

If you did not clip it, then fine. I have explained the context for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM

On the 1.6%

The HPA says that there are about 32,000 MSM's living with HIV

The NATSAL indicates that there are AT LEAST 1,984,500 MSM's

So the proportion of MSM's is probably about 1.6%

I have stated several times where the defect lies - we need to find a way of removing kids from the population figures. 1.6% remains a good indication.

It is necessary to quote that alongside the HPA 5.6% figure for a slice of 15-44 year olds.

I have always quoted both figures together. Neither of them are lies.

Until we have some figures with better banding for age groups, your points are totally unsupported by anything. We have no idea whether the number/age line is linear. We have no idea how well the ages are distributed in the group. There are no reliable conclusions that can be drawn. We have no idea whether most of the HIV+ in that group are in their 20's, 30's or 40's

You are making leaps in the dark in order to support your prejudices.

If you claim that your observations are fact or even supported opinions, then you are a liar.

You have totally failed to understand the HPA statistics.

When they say "Deaths within the first year of diagnosis" they are referring to people that first presented themselves in 2007 with full blown symptomatic AIDS. Those people have generally been HIV+ for a very long time but undiagnosed and therefore untreated. So by the time they dragged themselves to a doctor, it was too late. Tragic. Totally tragic.

There will be statistically anomalous cases - as in flu or other diseases - of people that get infected in May and are dead by December, but they are the statistical 'blips' the extreme exceptions.

The Median age of death at 47 is the median age TO DATE. It is slewed by the early-years, pre-treatment tidal wave of funerals.

Going forward, HIV+ people have normal life expectancy. As they die at ripe old age, so that median age figure will rise daramtically, but it will not rise for a long time, because the positive and healthy people are not going to die for a long time.

So, Keith. You need to correct your assumptions and insinuations from these figures, which you have failed to understand.

I am not calling to call you a liar. Just ignorant. Are you ready to learn yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM

Royston,
"about 1.6% of gay men, overall, are HIV+"
I deny that and defy you to quote any reliable source for it.

Are there any MSMs below age 15?
5.3% age 15 to 44 are HIV positive.
No one gets better so that number GOES UP after age 44, except that they die of AIDS.

1.6% is a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:05 AM

It is good that treatment is improving, but the median age of death from AIDS is 47, and "Deaths within the first year of diagnosis accounted for 18% (29/159) of all
deaths among MSM in 2007." (HPA)

Can you challege any single statement in my last post?
Can you fault any of the logic? One example?
Is there one single false assertion?

I showed that the proportion of MSMs who succumb is well over 10%, and possibly many times that.
Perhaps 40%.
That is the proportion who succumbed to the most cataclysmic epidemic in human history.
The Medieval Black Death.


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