BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:20 AM

Sorry Michael, didn't mean to ignore you, but would have appreciated an acknowledgment of my PM.

I think the cases you cite are indeed exceptions in the bigger picture of homosexual lifestyle. If we are to discuss this subject at all, it must surely be in general terms. There are exceptions to all types of human behaviour, but for the purposes of discussion we tend to generalise.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 06:36 AM

Ah no no no, The abductor of rodents or a burglarizing Mickey is not me. Brilliant and sneaky and clever is he. I am but an informed satirist like a sign post by the sea. Its not muse teeth or moose feet its Mouse Theif not me skittling on tiny feet in circles in a cast iron pot beneath the stove.





"Americans lighten up"
quote Akenaton



Dear Egyptian king and reformer of antiquity,
We as Americans grind our heros' bones for tea.
We drink it down and say "its such a pity".
We lighten up in mysterious ways
We embrace our heros and turn them into strays.

Oh sure we love our athletes
We love our amorous heros
We love our wealthy streets
We love more reducing heros
to sacrificial zeros.

When we are bored by excellence
When we are too envious
We cut the exhalted down to size
We even tingle with enjoyment if our victim cries.
Ohhh it feels so good you can't imagine.
From rags to riches to rage is our fashion.

For example todays newspaper page
shows Tiger Woods in a hood
sporting a beard with the grimice of a cynic.
Roaming the grounds
of a sexual addiction clinic.

sip GULP mmmm

AAhh what could be better than Tiger Woods tea.
You see...
Now we can gloat,
vicariously
We Are Now Better Than He.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 06:39 AM

Ake -

Grovelling apologies — I always acknowledge such informative PMs, but have checked back & find to my horror I failed to do so with yours — I think the phone must have rung & distracted me or some such. Many thanks for it now, belatedly -

& for your above response to my point re contendedly Civil-Partnered acquaintance. I can't feel the acquaintance I cite [which I could have added to, but 3 seemed enuff to be going on with] are so exceptional to any general rule here as to be disqualified from 'general-term' recognition. But I take your point, & am now content to cease urging this particular point so pertinaciously {tho an additional response from GfS, to whom it was originally addressed but who seems to have gone awol of late, would not come amiss}. As to how far it may or may not be relevant to the general argument will be for followers of this thread [hopefully of the non-abusive variety, of whom I hope there are more than sometimes may appear] to determine for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 08:48 AM

Keith, Ake,

There is no relevance whatever - in the context of this discussion - to these UK statistics. You keep producing them in support of a claim that HIV is a peculiarly homosexual experience. That it has been in one country is irrelevant. Globally HIV / AIDS is overwhelmingly a disease of heterosexual people both in absolute number and in terms of the percentage of sufferers in individual populations.

Do you deny that - Yes or No?

If you deny it, where is you proof.

If, as you bloody well must, you accept it; then we are agreed that all that matters is changing the risky behaviours of all people - gay, straight, black, white - and caring for the ill.

The totally irrelevant spike in the percentage of homosexual men affected by the disease in "The West" is a combination of their risky behaviour (as it is equally for the heterosexual afflicted) but mainly is a result of demographics - a smaller and very closed and concentrated group of potential carriers. C'mon Keith you're the great demographer...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM

"Globally HIV / AIDS is overwhelmingly a disease of heterosexual people both in absolute number and in terms of the percentage of sufferers"
Yes, I do agree.
We are perhaps at cross purposes.
I assumed Ake had been considering the Western/developed countries in which almost all Mudcat members live.
In these Western/developed countries HIV / AIDS is overwhelmingly a disease of homosexual men both in absolute number and in terms of the percentage of sufferers, if you discount infection acquired abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:10 PM

"...if you discount infection acquired abroad"

...and discount this and that and anything that points away from it being a gay plague, gay caused, spread and proliferating. I am not saying that is what YOU mean but so many would use the statistics to point that way. The fact is that on a global scale this is a human problem. No discounting... it has the potential to affect all of us in some way or another. Allowing gay men to be the scapegoats only puts off the real work that has to be done. Once that mist has finally been disposed of then the true effects can be seen... in all populations (I am only talking about sexually transmitted HIV/AIDS here and not other infectious routes).

ALL respsonsible adults, who have free open sexual encounters, of all sexualities have to play their part. This is the only way to stem this tide. People put their own house in order and help others do the same. As far as I am aware the gay population is trying a lot to educate and put their own house in order. One cannot discount anything. ALL causes have to be looked at and their effects limited.

Can you imagine if this had been the other way around? Where HIV/AIDS only hit straight populations first? Do you think the gay folk would then have blamed straights for giving it them? It's a stupid argument really to blame anyone.

Make no bones about it. This disease is about sex, sex, sex and what people see as vile what others do. How many people catch flu off each other every year? How many die of that? No-one blames one part of the population for it. But I guarantee if flu was sexually transmitted then all sorts of judgements would be passed as to who was responisble. It's a disease. An Illness. It affects human beings. Do we really need scapegoats? What we need is a cure...

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:16 PM

Could this thread by any duller and more politically correct? Accept it people, homosexuality is UNNATURAL!! If it wasn't, every species on the planet would die out!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:19 PM

FACT is it is NOT unnatural is it?

Very many other successful animal species practice homosexuality and they do not die out. It's a biological phenomena that is not fully understood but it is most ceratinly NOT unnatural as it exists within nature.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:27 PM

List of animals displaying homosexual behaviour

Homosexual behavious in animals

Homosexual behaviour widespread in animals according to new study

Animals prefer Homosexuality to Evolutionism


...some food for thought about whether it is natural or not

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:29 PM

You people have to learn to accept that for the majority of heterosexual males like me, the thought of homosexuality turns our stomachs! The current onslaught by the left wing media has left ME in a minority! But believe me, us hetero's still mutter under our breath!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:45 PM

My advice would be to stop thinking about it then! Go about your life in peace. Muttering will not do anything, no more than shouting will, because I actually think the majority of sorted straight men don't give a monkey's about gay blokes. Why would they?

All you men have far more in common with each other than the things you don't. Why let sexuality be such a major trouble when you consider all the other things a man is and can be? Man has achieved so much by co-operating with his fellows than he has by fighting them. Don't stress the differences. Embrace the similarities and let them grow.

Or would that not be being a 'true man' ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:46 PM

Don that was excellent...and I DID understand it.
I have taken note.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:49 PM

Paco:

Do not presume, sir. You do NOT speak for all heteros; some of us, without any desire to turn homosexual, are willing to stand up for civil rights and human decency under the law instead of giving way to your kind of puerile puking.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:22 PM

MP....You are being a very silly girl.

From Unaid.
More than half a million people are living with HIV in Western Europe, and that
number continues to grow amid signs in several countries of a resurgence of risky
sexual behaviour. The biggest change in Western Europe has been the
emergence of heterosexual contact as the dominant cause of new HIV infections in
several countries. Of the more than 20,000 newly diagnosed HIV infections in 2004,
more than one third were in women. A large proportion of new diagnoses are in
people originating from countries with serious epidemics, principally countries in
sub-Saharan Africa.
�� There are several reasons for the doubling of new diagnoses of HIV in the United
Kingdom since 2000 (from 3,499 in that year to 7,258 in 2004). Increased testing is
one of them but most of the increase is due to a steep rise in the number of
heterosexually-acquired HIV infections, approximately 80% of which were
contracted in high-prevalence countries.
�� Once the primary mode of transmission, unsafe sex between men still accounts for
roughly one quarter of new HIV diagnoses in the UK (1,900 in 2004) amid signs
that high-risk sexual behaviour has not decreased.
�� Sex between men remains an important factor in the epidemics in France and the
Netherlands, and in Belgium, Denmark, Portugal and Switzerland there has
been a slight, and in Germany a significant, rise in the number of annual new HIV
infections attributed to sex between men. In Germany, new HIV infections in men
who have sex with men almost doubled from 2001 to 2004 (from 530 to 982) and
unsafe sex between men is the main cause of the steady increase overall in new
HIV diagnosis in Germany, which tallied 2,058 in 2004 (44% more than the 1,425
cases diagnosed in 2001).
�� In Spain HIV cases among drug injectors dropped steeply in the 1990s after
methadone treatment and needle-exchange projects had been introduced. New
HIV infections among drug injectors have also dropped sharply in Portugal (1,000
in 2004, compared with 2,400 in 2000), and they comprised just over one third of
new HIV diagnoses in 2004 (compared with almost one half as recently as 2002).
�� Among HIV infections attributed to heterosexual contact in France during 2003,
69% were migrants, almost two thirds (65%) of who were women. All in all, in the
18 western European countries with HIV data for 2004, women comprised 35% of
all new diagnoses, up from 29% in 2000.
�� Overall in Central Europe, the epidemics have remained contained and small.
About half the cases in which a mode of transmission was identified in 2004 were
due to unprotected heterosexual intercourse, but in a handful of countries—
including the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovenia, and the Slovak Republic—
sex between men appears to be the main mode of HIV transmission.
��
These figures do NOT correlate the percentage difference between homosexual male population and heterosexual population.

Thus, they can say that heterosexual contact has emerged as the dominant cause of new hiv infections, but in percentage terms far more homosexuals run the risk of contracting Hiv/aids than heterosexuals......therefore, homosexual practice must be more dangerous in relation to hiv/aids than heterosexual practice....Oui?....seemples!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:39 PM

Royston, do YOU not understand that "risky behaviour" and homosexuality are in most cases, synonymous?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Homosexuality and "risky behaviour" are not synonymous. Buy a dictionary. For crying out loud it's a category error. People aren't behaviour. What you mean is that homosexuals engage in risky behaviour. If you think that most homosexuals engage in risky behaviour, you are mistaken. If you think that most cases of risky behaviour involve homosexuals, you are mad. Some homosexuals engage in risky behaviour. Alas, far too many. But then any is too many.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:42 PM

Keith,

You are right, Ake is deliberately ignoring the full picture and focussing on specific segments of humanity.

He is doing this as it is his purpose to show that Homosexuality is a dangerous disease ridden perversion.

If he were right, this would be reflected consistently in all demographics.

If it isn't reflected overall, then that means it isn't true overall.

My kitchen table has a red spotty table cloth on it.

In the context of Tables in My kitchen, it can be said that kitchen tables have red spotty table cloths on them.

But in general, Kitchen tables have lots of types of cloths, and some have none.

So a selective analysis gives us a misleading picture of reality.

Ake says that in the UK Gay men are 50 times more likely to contract AIDS.

He concludes that homosexuality is unhealthy.

He deliberately ignores the rest of the evidence as it contradicts his view.

He even posts "evidence" which contradicts his view concerning whether discrimination is a help or a hindrance.

So far you have provided some nteresting links.

I'd love to know your reaction to Ake's opinion as that has become the central discussion on this thread.

Is Ake right that homosexuality is the problem.

And why the fuck is everyone humouring this bitter shock-fetishist.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:42 PM

Be fair Amos, Paco was not referring to homosexual "rights", but homosexual practice (sex between men), which I am sure, the vast majority of heterosexual males find disgusting(if they are being honest)

I think nature determines how we think on these matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:59 PM

Oh we ARE getting picky!

Homosexual practice and risky behaviour, are synonymous...Better?

and by the way I've never used that word before...anywhere!

I just found it and quite like it.....lovely ring to it...don't you think? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 02:05 PM

You people have to learn to accept that for the majority of heterosexual males like me, the thought of homosexuality turns our stomachs!

I don't doubt that's true, however we can't base legislation and people's freedoms upon gastronomic reactions. Truth be told, a guy kissing a guy kinda makes me a little queasy. But that's neither here nor there. I'd still argue till my throat was dry that they need to be treated just like everybody else, and have the same civil rights as anybody else. Because that's what's right and fair.

The current onslaught by the left wing media has left ME in a minority!

So? We're all in the majority on some things (I like vanilla ice cream), and in the minority on others (I like the DH). You have no basic right to be in the majority on any given thing. Get over it.

But believe me, us hetero's still mutter under our breath!!!!

You're allowed to do that. Just don't use your muttering as a basis for determining the civil rights of others.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

Negative, Ake. Homosexual practices can be safe or they can be dangerous, depending on how they are carried out, I sauppose. I have no firsthand data. Hetero sexual practices can likewise be risky or safe depending on how they are carried out. It would seem obvious that, for example, anal penetration on either kind of pairing would be more risky than oral sex or vaginal penetration, would it not? But there is no more inherent risk in one kind of pairing than the other. The risk in dangerous sexual practices is not defined by the sexuality pairing.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 02:32 PM

"MP....You are being a very silly girl.

... seemples!"

I really don't give a meerkat!

Whether being gay is more risky or not is NOT the issue. The FACT is that this disease affects all sexualities and can be caught by ALL humans. It's not being gay that is risky, nor being promiscuous as such: it's having unsafe sex that is the risk and that is a a risk for everyone not just gay men. Whether they have a greater chance of being infected does not make me any more secure from the disease disease. The only thing that will make me, them and you secure is safe sex. Even people within 'stable' relationships get cheated on enough to be put at risk if one of them has unprotected sex with someone else. It really matters not a jot who has the most infections if I am one of the people having unsafe sex. I then take the same risk as all of them.

HIV/AIDS has the potential to be more of a biological death threat than any other non atomic weapon on the planet. It is a threat to us ALL, if we have unprotected sex, because we are all human NOT because more gay men or less straight people or how so many bisexuals contract it.

I'll add silly to the long list of other names I have been called. I'll settle for being who and how I am. If that is silly then so be it...

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM

No Amos...I'm sorry I was referring to Pacos contention that most heteros find homosexual practice disgusting.

I dont think Paco was making any sort of statement on the rights issue, or even the health issues?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM

Hey MP...glad you like the meercats......more fun than all this boring old stuff!

Anyways back to the grind....again!

Homosexuality is being presented as a safe and healthy lifestyle.
The health statistics say homosexuals die sooner, are much more likely to contract hiv, are much more promiscuous, are more susceptible to a whole range of psychiatric problems than heteros

Safe and healthy lifestyle.....I dont think so!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM

Who is saying it's a safe and healthy lifestyle? I never said it was a lifestyle ever (as that suggest choice).

Living is dangerous and can be unhealthy in all sorts of ways. Some are down to actual lifestyle choices but being gay is not one of them

Why do you obsess about the gay men? What about the straight people too that play their part? They also suffer mental health problems as well. I worked in psychiatry for 20 years and I came across many many more straight folks with mental health problems than I did gay. Those gay people I did come across were not depressed because of being gay. They were depressed over the treatment society was dishing out and how that affected them mostly. Lots of gay men die because of suicide... but so many are driven to it because of some of the drivel we have seen on this thread. Why can you not just let them be without constantly throwing up all the negatives that can happen to some of them? You think a straight person would not be depressed if they found they had HIV/AIDS? Have you ever seen any straights folks celebarting having any STI?

So you have no solution to the problem.

Try this. Instead of constantly bringing up all the negatives, just try thinking of all the good things that can happen for a gay man or woman. They are the same things that may bring you and I happiness for gawd's sake! They are the same as you and I. Flesh and blood. They just do sex a different way than you maybe, if they have sex at all, but is that such a wrong thing? if so, why? Get away from the disease hype. Try and think positive things.

Have you seen there are different ways to play an F chord on a guitar? They sound the same but are done differently...

mp

You telling me that

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:16 PM

Oops... that reply got cut when my line dropped... apologies

Gay sex is safer than straight sex... at least you cannot get pregnant! Have you any idea how many women die each year from childbirth? The figures are terrible... shall we try and get that banned? What would happen to the human race then? Of course, such a suggestion is ludicrous, so we educate women about planning for baby and how to try and get through pregnancy safely. They still die!

Some of the arguments are totally fallacious against gay men. That's the silly thing that is going on.

I have no wish to take any further part in this particular thread. All I can say is thank heavens the majority of people seem fine about homosexuality. You see, agreeing that it exists will not make you one. Sticking up for their rights, for them to be treated like everyone else, will not make you one. Being seen to side and even like gay men will not make you one. Once the fear goes it's easy...

seemples!

;-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:16 PM

95% of gay men have no HIV.

For this overhelming majority, sex is as healthy as it is for anyone else.

In fact, for the overwhelming majority of people, sex is healthy.
This is probably because most people use condoms.

Straight Women and Gay men who are on the receiving end of penetrative sex are most at risk for obvious reasons.

For this reason, women make up 50% of HIV/AIDS cases worldwide.

It follows, as clear as the homophobia that enbitters Ake, that unprotected sex for women and for Gay men puts them at risk.

It does not follow that homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle.

Unless you already hold that view and will see proof in any evidence, even articles which say that discrimination against homosexuals hinders attempts to address the global issue of HIV/AIDS.

Ake, you would make an excellent mouthpiece for the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:17 PM

Oh alright!.....tra---la la------la la la laaaa   See! I can do it!

But it doesn't last....   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:19 PM

Ake:

I know, I know. My point was that when an issue of civil rights is concerned, upright folks will put aside their dislike of personalities or individual idiosyncracies instead of acting them out in a hateful voice. Some issues transcend these petty little nauseas. And no-one has told Paco he has to think about homosexual practices OR heterosexual practices either. But if he is like most hetero men, he spends LOTS of time doing the latter anyway. THe kind of hetero practices he probably daydreams about as the great desiderata are in fact those which, in another age, were condemned as disgusting and forced into the closet. Yet they are perfectly normal heterosexual couplings of various sorts. Mrs. Grundy has aimed her oppressive righteous indignation at plenty of innocent folks over the centuries, hasn't she? EIghty years ago miscegenation between different hues was thought of as just unthinkably disgusting by some folks.

But you will notice as we matured, some of us outgrew those petty hatreds when it came to granting human beings equal rights.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:29 PM

""Because homos are at least 50 times more likely to get aids than heteros...why? Because homosexual promiscuity figures...no of sexual partners etc, are much higher than among heterosexuals(if you deny that, please give your reason for the high hiv figure). Why are homosexuals in general so much more promiscuous?...I believe it has to do with the exclusively male hedonistic lifestyle.""

You really need some lessons in logical analysis Ake.

This is your old, and oft repeated circular argument, and it's really getting irritating.

Homos (to use your preferred pejorative terminology....a la Josef Goebbels) are fifty times more likely to get HIV..Why?. Because they're promiscuous. How do we know they're promiscuous?...Because more of them get HIV. Why are they more promiscuous?....It's the exclusively male hedonistic lifestyle.

What exclusively male hedonistic lifestyle, for Christ's sake?

Go to your nearest town centre at 10pm, and see the queues for the local nightclubs. Come back again about 2.00am, when said clubs are disgorging their clientele.

Tell me Ake, do you think that those dozens of drunken straight men and straight women have been setting up meetings at the local vicarage, or is it conceivable that they are in the main looking for sexual encounters?

The crap you spout about promiscuity being the domain of the gay population, merely serves to highlight your total ignorance, and bigotry.

Gay relationships are no different than straight insofar as they are no more and no less sex oriented.

With your lack of empathy, lack of insight, and lack of tolerance, you cannot possibly have an unbiased attitude toward the actions of others.

Where they do not conform to your cosmic perception, your only possible response is disgust and disdain, because your inability to understand another's point of view is total.

This is abundantly evidenced by the fact that those who oppose your view are named as prats, blinkered fools, liberal fascists, and unworthy to hold a point of view.

You are The Compleat Ass, and thank God Almighty that you have no authority.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM

""You people have to learn to accept that for the majority of heterosexual males like me, the thought of homosexuality turns our stomachs! The current onslaught by the left wing media has left ME in a minority! But believe me, us hetero's still mutter under our breath!!!!""

You may feel as you wish "Paco with the multiple surnames", but don't presume to know what "most" Straights, or "most" Gays, or "most Butchers", or "most Undertakers" think.

You only know what you think, so express your thoughts by all means, but don't claim support unless you can produce those supporters, and thus far you seem to have three.

Hardly "most" is it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:52 PM

Nice post Amos, thoughtful and kind. Its a shame that most of the insults and recriminations haven't been avoided.

Ach yer a guid man...so ye are!    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 04:02 PM

The fact that Ake still insists that homosexual activity per se is "risky behavior" convinces me that he persists in clinging to his medieval belief that HIV is created by spontaneous generation.

Homosexual activity is no more risky than heterosexual activity. What is risky is unprotected, promiscuous sex. And that is risky for anyone, regardless of the gender of their sexual partner(s).

It all zeroes in on Ake's baseless antipathy toward homosexuals. Pure and simple. And that particular quirk is something he doesn't care to deal with, he just wants to justify it, not only to others, but to himself.

--------

And Paco:    Most heterosexual men may find homosexual activity not to their taste, but when it comes right down to it, the vast majority are simply indifferent to it. I don't go rock-climbing and I don't play golf. I could if I wanted to, but I just don't want to. I don't spend a great deal of time brooding over the matter.

If the thought of homosexual activity turns your stomach, stop thinking about it.

As to the argument that homosexuality is "unnatural," this is bogus on two counts. First, as MP points out, it is not "unnatural," it is indeed rife among the animal kingdom. Once this is pointed out to those of the "homosexuality is unnatural" types, they tend to respond with something like, "Well, aren't we supposed to be better than animals!??" It becomes an argument that eats its own tail. [How's that for kinky!??]

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:27 PM

Can't post much, yet..haven't read a lot of the 'newer' posts'...some of the ones I did read weren't worth replying to, being as it is much ado about nothing...but I did see this......"My point was that when an issue of civil rights is concerned.......(blah blah blah)"
The Constitution protects rights based on Race, Creed or Color.....umm what does homosexuality fall under??
We have sufficiently found that it is not genetic, it's not a religion, and can't decided what color is involved....
Unlike the Ugandans who are a struggling nation, trying to bring themselves UP, even though they have a tribal heritage and culture, which you have to take into account, before slapping a controversial edict upon them, based on a misinterpretation of 'civil rights', from a foreign country(ourselves), we are a nation in decline, decay...when they can easily see our 'acceptable mores' as decadent. It is understandable (though I don't condone it),why they would consider having a death penalty, to defend themselves from a 'threat', based on something they view as weakening the societal structure, based on tribes, made up from the familial nucleus. When 'political activists' for homosexuality(read: subversive agitators to exploit), come in to impose their 'views' into THEIR nation, and society, what did you expect? When the Christian 'moralists' come in, and reinforce their views, which is consistent with their tribal roots, its no wonder the 'activists' blame the Christians for instigating this!

That being said, I still don't believe that the death penalty, is justified here, but for some there, they do. Before you start your stupid arguing, consider for just a teeny moment, that we are NOT talking about OUR culture, OUR country, OUR nature, nor OUR society, and try to at least consider another point of view, THEIR point of view....in your 'all knowing', all dogmatic, all liberal understanding!!! THEY DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ANYONE'S ELSE'S POINT OF VIEW!!!! Wrap your emotional 'do-gooder's' pea brains around that one!..then whip out your tissues, and pretend that you even give a shit, at all. YOU DON"T!
So Sincerely,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:36 PM

Cancel my appointment, Counselor, please. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:40 PM

BEING AS I don't give a shit about race or creed or country or color,
and BEING AS, I don't give a flying fuck about grammar,
and BEING AS, the discussion is about basic HUMAN RIGHTS regardless of creed or culture or skin color or fucking un-selfaware illiteracy, you are full to the eyeballs of shit.
BEING AS I am sorry, did I say that out loud?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 12:34 AM

Well put, Tia.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 01:10 AM

Well said TIA....but it had nothing to do with anything!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:30 AM

GfS:

You been sippin' the cooking sherry again? 'Fess up. You have, right?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:37 AM

Amos!...Just posted to you on another thread. Nope, no sherry. Just that there are some certain morons who can't seem to understand that people from other cultures and traditions, and mindsets, don't give a rat's ass about America's liberal idiot's, interpretation of 'civil rights'. They have their own cultures......and are not too interested in our lame shit!....and do not welcome it in their country.

Then the morons blame me??..as if I think that way!?!?!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:20 AM

I hope that MtheGM is here to see this tirade of vicious hate and bile from GfS.

Care to review your opinion of it and your opinion of those who always saw it for what it truly is?

Keith: "Globally HIV / AIDS is overwhelmingly a disease of heterosexual people both in absolute number and in terms of the percentage of sufferers"
Yes, I do agree.
We are perhaps at cross purposes.
I assumed Ake had been considering the Western/developed countries in which almost all Mudcat members live.
In these Western/developed countries HIV / AIDS is overwhelmingly a disease of homosexual men both in absolute number and in terms of the percentage of sufferers, if you discount infection acquired abroad.

Thanks for getting the "Global" picture into the "agreed" bin.

But as to the latter part of your message, this is the nub of most of my arguments with a lot of people.

If you take *the truth* and then twist it this way, turn it another way, remove a part of it, trim another bit off at that edge...then you can probably prove that up is down and black is white. It doesn't make it true.

Ake was trying to prove that *controlling* or *dealing with* homosexuality would *solve* HIV/AIDS.

Which is just ridiculous given that it is overwhelmingly in absolute numbers and as a percentage of populations, a heterosexual affliction.

I posted earlier the 2009 UK diagnosis numbers that showed Heterosexual diagnoses outnumbering homosexual diagnosis in absolute number in the UK. Doesn't matter where it was acquired: those folks are here, they have it and they are/were shagging here and spreading it here. Heterosexually.

I have explained why/how a disease (any disease) rips through a closed and segregated community to produce high percentage infections. Basically society (possibly aided and abetted by gay men and businesses themselves) built gay ghettos in our major cities. It ain't rocket science - look at what happens with disease in other ghettos / refugee camps / cruise ships / hospital infections etc. Demogoraphic / sociological bad luck.

GfS is a disgusting hate-filled creature, 'nuff said. If anyone still takes it seriously then I will reply properly but otherwise, I just can't bear to dignify it.

GfS is also a liar. Most of its recent spleen and hate has been dressed up in a whole crock of mother-earth, child-bearing, nurturing bosom bullshit, in which it claimed to be an uber-fertile woman. Check its other posts on Mudcat where it talks about being a man and refers to its wife. Can't take seriously a word that it types.

Ake can't or won't accept the truth. You know, Ake, instead of ignoring the truth, why can't you just grow the balls to say that you simply don't like homosexuals and you would like to see them 'dealt with' or whatever it is you actually want to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:11 AM

I am not twisting truth Royston, I am sharing the evidence that I have found.
It seemed quite logical that HIV will spread in the straight community here as in Africa.
That was the prevailing view in the 80s, and I used to teach that to my students in health classes and Science.
But it did not happen, and is not happening.
AIDS is arriving in our straight communiy by train, plane and auto, not by infection.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

"The Constitution protects rights based on Race, Creed or Color.....umm what does homosexuality fall under??"

Time to read the constitution, and also to go and look up "civiil rights"


"We have sufficiently found that it is not genetic"

No evidence has been provided to cast doubt on the idea of a homosexual gene.

The evidence which exists shows that it is very likely that there is one.

As is usually the case with research, it is only a matter of time before they find what they are looking for.



Keith,

Ake states that the evidence provided shows homosexuality to be an unsafe "lifestyle", but that it has no bearing on whether or not heterosexuality is and unsafe "lifestyle"?

On this basis he has argued that homosexuals civil liberties should be curtailed - for their own good.

Do you agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:11 AM

Reasonable question Lox, but I prefer not to be drawn in to that debate. I just felt I had something to contribute on the epidemiology.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:32 AM

Keith.

Reasonable response, but it is important to be clear about what the topic of conversation is, and what stats are going to be useful.

The questions currently under discussion are:

"Is homosexuality an unhealthy lifestyle?"

And

"Should we therefore curtail the civil rights of homosexuals"

So the stats needed are those which paint a clear and accurate picture of the risks of homosexuality as compared with heterosexuality.


I cold post the results of a survey done in a mosque, and the results of a survey done in a HIV clinic and they would say different things.

To get an accurate overall picture, I need to provide a wider range of stats.

Do you agree that focussing on stats from one country and ignoring stats from another, whilst also ignoring the global picture, creates a misleading picture?

Do you think that the stats provided show homosexuality to be different from other "lifestyles" in that it is unhealthy and risky where they are not?

Or do you just see, as I do, that concentrations vary depending on where you go and that it is impossible to derive any hard and fast rules connecting homosexuality to HIV that cannot also be applied to heterosexuals?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:44 AM

The epidemiology of AIDS is very different across the world.
It is not useful to take some global average.
If we are discussing the countries we live in, then you have to be clear that heterosexual transmission is a very rare occurrence indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:47 AM

Globally, malnourishment is a serious issue, but not a reason for Westerners to consume more.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:58 AM

"The epidemiology of AIDS is very different across the world."

So by the same token, relying on the available AIDS statistics would be insufficient grounds to support the view that homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle.

Or, if that were a fair concluson to draw, then the same rationale applied in other countries would lead to a conclusion that heterosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle.

Do you agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 07:19 AM

"Globally, malnourishment is a serious issue, but not a reason for Westerners to consume more."

I'm trying to understand this analogy.

You are clearly drawing a parallel between malnourishment with AIDS.

What isn't so clear is what westerners consuming more is a parallel for.


Here is how I have broken it down.

1. "Globally, Aids is a serious issue, but not a reason for Westerners to practice safe sex."

but that would be more similar to

"Globally, malnourishment is a serious issue, and is a reason for Westerners to eat a healthy balanced diet."

so consuming more must be a parallel for irresponsible overindulgence.

If I, along with my fellow westreners, overindulge in food and available resources, then I could contribute to malnourishment in the third world.

But if any homosexual overindulges sexually, this will not deprive anyone in the third world of anything.

So the emphasis must be on irresponsibility.

Unsafe sex.

That is how your analogy can work.

"Globally, AIDS is a serious issue, but not a reason for Westerners to practice unsafe sex."



Your analogy says nothing about homosexuals that it doesn't also say about everyone else.

It certainly doesn't support any view that homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 07:27 AM

The other alternative is:

"Globally, AIDS is a serious issue, but not a reason for Westerners to become homosexual."

But that is clearly nonsense, as people do not become homosexual because AIDS is a global issue.

Some just are gay.

And they are gay all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 07:33 AM

Sorry about flurry of posts,

but the main flaw in the analogy is this.

Overconsumption of resources and food in the west can lead to malnourishment being a Global problem.

Being Gay in the west does not lead to AIDS being a global problem.

Unsafe sex is the reason that AIDS is a global problem.

So once again Keith you have shown that Akes assertions about homosexuals are groundless.