BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM

"Lox, if I referred to cystic fibrosis as a scourge, it would not mean I was bigotted in my attitude to anyone.
That is not to imply that homosexuality is a disease, just a condition that you are born with."

Keith, you know better than that - I hope ...

Cysric Fibrosis is a condition suffered by those infected.

Homosexuality is neither a condition, nor is it suffered by homosexuals any more than heterosexuality is suffered by heterosexuals.

In fact, reading this thread, i was under the impression that much of the criticism of "promiscuous" homosexuals was that they enjoy it too much ...

Your last posts is a bit surreal and out of character for an impartial statistician.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM

Keith,

More pointedly, Ake meant that homosexuals themselves are the scourge, suffered by the rest of society.

Unless you are saying that cystic fibrosis sufferers are a scourge on the rest of us then you'll have to forgive me for continuing to find your analogy more parallel universe than parallel.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:34 PM

Royston.

"The global Aids epidemic could be contained within just five years by testing everybody in high-risk regions and immediately treating all those who are found to be HIV positive, according to a leading scientist.
In the absence of a vaccine, an aggressive treatment programme is the first promising way of controlling a condition that affects 33 million people worldwide and kills 2.1 million every year, he said. It also has the potential to halve tuberculosis infections associated with HIV and Aids.

Two randomised trials of universal testing and treatment are to begin in South Africa shortly, and the World Health Organisation (WHO) has indicated that it will back the strategy if they prove successful. The approach is also supported by Anthony Fauci, the influential scientist who leads the US National Institute on Allergy and Infectious Diseases, which is funding further trials in areas of Washington DC and New York where HIV is widespread.

Projects in Kenya, Botswana and Malawi have shown that regular testing and good compliance are achievable in Africa. "Compliance in Africa is actually much better than in developed countries, because in the latter HIV tends to affect intravenous drug users and other marginalised groups, whereas the victims in Africa are just poor," Dr Williams said."


Dont you just LOVE the PC press
" Compliance in Africa is actually much better than in developed countries, because in the latter HIV tends to affect intravenous drug users and other marginalised groups,"

"Other marginalised groups" contains the Male homosexual demographic the highest of any and about four times higher than IDU's

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM

Oh Ake, you must learn to read. If you can read then you must learn not to tell lies. I am not calling you a liar, those are the two explanations for what you have said, so you tell us. Ake: Thick? or a liar?

A South-African researcher is about to trial an universal testing programme in South Africa and will give ART to all positive people, regardless of CD4 or viral load.

That is an UNIVERSAL testing programme. Not a selective one.

It is not supported by the WHO: they have said they WILL support it IF it produces good results. In South Africa.

I am already on the record as saying that I believe UNIVERSAL testing programmes are probably a brilliant idea in any country.

But unfortunately it isn't happening any time soon.

And a selective testing programme; whether aggressive, vindictive or otherwise, is still nothing more than one of your deranged fantasies.

Compliance is better in Africa, because the affected groups in The West are marginalised, not just poor. What that statement means, Ake, is that if IDU's and MSM's were not marginalised [by bigotry] then compliance would be better. This is what all the experts agree on: that prejudice and bigotry kills people.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article7035256.ece

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:00 PM

Ebbie: "GfS, I didn't miss the pun- I gave it a little smile of recognition then went on to the pertinent point."

What is the 'pertinent point', that you're not addressing? Actually, its the whole point of this stupid 'controversy', that you and the politicos are ignoring. So let's deal with that. Did you give what I posted any deeper thought?

Now check this out:

Don: "I don't think I need to answer GfS's little tirade (running in circles, frothing at the mouth, and peeing his pants), do you?

GfS: Nice way to say you CAN'T answer it, without admitting that you have been WRONG!

Speaking of running in circles, and tirades, and frothing at the mouth..............:

Don: "Just read what I wrote, read what he wrote, and make up your own ninds."

GfS: What the hell is 'own ninds'......ooops, a little too much frothing going on there, ol' chap??!!

The weak accuse others of their own bullshit!

Love and kisses,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 01:24 AM

I don't have to answer anything because you haven't said anything that hasn't been answered many times before, both by me and by others. You keep singing the same song over and over and over and over and. . . .

That's why I suggested that people read what's already been posted.

You ARE a boring little twit. Hell, GfS, why don't you just have a bunch of rubber stamps made?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:19 AM

Lox, Cystic fibrosis is a disease you are born with.
Homosexuality is a condition you are born with.
Both groups will miss out on certain experiences which the rest of us think of as joys of life.
Both groups will go through unpleasant experiences related to their condition.
Both are at a heightened risk of acquiring an infection that will kill them before their time.

I think that Akeneaton does regard heterosexuality as a disease.
Before denouncing him, remember that that was the mainstream public and medical belief within our lifetimes. The change is not due to any scientific breakthrough, just a change in perceptions.

We can disagree, but it is a valid point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:23 AM

Don Firth, what were Ake's statistics used to argue?
If it was to argue that AIDS is overwhelmingly a disease of Msms and a rarity in the general population, then whatever your friend told you, that was the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:40 AM

Royston, this new approach is to test everyone, but only in high risk regions.

"By testing people in high-risk regions and immediately treating putting the patients on medications that reduce their viral-loads, Williams said that public health officials could "render HIV-infected people not infectious."

"We've been using drugs to save lives, but not stop the infection," he said, adding that proper treatments makes someone 25 times less infectious. "It's time to look beyond that."

Kenneth H. Meyer, professor of medicine and community health at Brown University, said that public health officials have been moderately successful in getting people onto anti-viral treatments. But as people live longer, the trend of more new infections than deaths will continue, especially in high-risk regions.

He cited statistics that while the number of HIV- infected people in the United States is 1 in 300, it's much higher in hot spots like Washington, D.C., where the prevalence is 1 in 15 people"
http://news.aaas.org/2010/0220battling-hivaids---test-all-treat-all.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:43 AM

Typo in post to Lox.
For heterosexuality read homosexuality.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:44 AM

Keith, is this more evidence of an opinion that you might hold?

"I think that Akeneaton does regard heterosexuality as a disease.
Before denouncing him, remember that that was the mainstream public and medical belief within our lifetimes. The change is not due to any scientific breakthrough, just a change in perceptions.

We can disagree, but it is a valid point of view."

Because when you argue against "liberals" you tell them that settled scientific conclusion and evidence is the only thing to be considered. So the only view that can be tolerated is that homosexuality is not a disease, isn't it? That is the settled scientific position.

Or are we to understand that you assert ignorant ranting bigots are deserving of some special protection, indulgence or consideration?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:52 AM

Royston, do you deny that 50 years ago, medical science regarded homosexuality as a disease?
There is no new science on the subject, just a difference of perception that could even reverse again.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:11 AM

Thanks, Keith. You have answered my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM

I doubt it Royston.
I do not regard homosexuality as a disease.
That should answer your question quite clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:19 AM

But you consider that settled fact to be subject to future revision and you say that we should support or excuse ranting bigots.

You answered my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:21 AM

Keith, you miss the point.

Ake says that homosexuals are a scourge suffered by the rest of humanity, not that that homosexuality is a scourge suffered by homosexuals.

Unless you mean that Cystic Fibrosis 'Sufferers' are a scourge on the rest of us then your analogy is false.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM

Just to put some background on this.

Clinical Psychiatry classed homosexuality as an aberrant, treatable condition. A 'disease' in the true sense of the word; that being homosexual, per se, caused mental harm.

After a long time the profession came to the realisation that homosexuality could not be treated. It had no symptoms, it was natural in other species, as well as humans.

The profession realised that they were treating symptoms - depression, self-loathing, anxiety, self-harm, in a tiny minority of homosexual people where the root-causes of the symptoms were not being homosexual but were the results of how the patient was abused and mistreated and harmed by other people for being homosexual.

So the profession realised it had simply been wrong, and reversed its position. The "problem" was societal prejudice, of which the clinicalisation of homosexuality had been a prime-mover.

Yes, some pseudo-scientists argue differently. They normally have quite obvious politico-socio-religious affiliations. They are a fringe group as in creationists, global warming-deniers and the like.

Only ignorant, ranting bigots pay them regard - because ignorant ranting bigots appreciate, selectively, what they have to say, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM

I think it very likely that a genetic cause will emerge.
People will then have to decide if it is a genetic "defect" and if parents will be allowed to make choices about the sexuality of their babies.
This is the current position with Down's and other conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:58 AM

Lox, I do not have such a good memory of Ake's posts. My version of his belief seems more likely, but he can and no doubt will speak for himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 08:25 AM

Royston, I question this.
"After a long time the profession came to the realisation that homosexuality could not be treated. It had no symptoms, it was natural in other species, as well as humans"

It can be said to have symptoms. That is how it is recognised.
There are many conditions regarded as diseases that occur in other species as well as humans.
No treatment has yet been found, but it may.

We may not regard it as a disease, but that remains a valid point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 09:22 AM

Keith: I think it very likely that a genetic cause will emerge.
People will then have to decide if it is a genetic "defect" and if parents will be allowed to make choices about the sexuality of their babies.
This is the current position with Down's and other conditions.

I agree with you about the genetic component. I'm interested in your opinion: Do you think that society should move to "treat" (by which we mean, in the short term, to abort) a feotus that displays a genetic trait, which of itself causes no harm or prejudice to the life that follows that could not be prevented by people just being nice and showing respect to each other?

We are coming back to Eugenics aren't we? Prejudice and bigotry harms people, so rather than stop prejudice and bigotry, let us just cull the victims? Would that be a better world for anyone? Where do you stop with the list of victims that should be culled?

The Down's analogy is a poor one, I hope that you will reconsider it. Parents receiving an in-utero diagnosis of Down's have an agonising choice to make (whatever they decide), but they have to make it because their child may be utterly dependant on constant, life-long, painstaking care and financial and material resources in order to realise their potential.

Whereas a gay person just requires people not be nasty.

For the record, I believe that abortion is problematic and too freely resorted to. I don't believe that Down's is necessarily a reason to abort a foetus - I have known too many people with Down's syndrome who are just wonderful people leading good lives with the right support and care. But I recognise that people struggle to make difficult choices and they must be supported to make and live with those choices, whichever one they made. All choices have consequences, and the decision by a couple to abort a pregnancy they hoped would be a cherished child must be absolutely heart-breaking for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 11:05 AM

Don: "You ARE a boring little twit. Hell, GfS, why don't you just have a bunch of rubber stamps made?"

You either could read them, or understand them anyway.

here, here's a thought to consider, oh wise one...same thing I gave to Ebbs:.....GfS: "Finally you asked! By the absurdity that it is a genetic defect, if you will, and equating it to race, creed, color, and giving it the status of equality, as such, under civil rights, if a homosexual seeks to not be homosexual, for whatever reason, and people have posted of those who did just that, you deny them counsel...because you say that they can not switch from homo to hetero sexual...which is in complete error! What would they counsel for..if it doesn't exist?? How would that be covered under Obama's(or any) health care bill????? Would you want to deny them the 'pursuit of happiness'?.....or deny them the opportunity to have and raise their OWN from them, (genetic) family???...because of some stupid political position?????????? You want a political posture to allow what people can, and can't WANT??

Ummm, ....any lights going on?

Your political stance fed to you, that has left you 'hung over' from when there were valid issues, has both deceived you, and blinded you. Now they are working to destroy the very basis on which they were founded.......

"A wise teacher does not take a student into his own throne room, but brings him to the threshold of the student's potential"

Hop aboard the clue train, Don!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:30 PM

I SAID:-    ""The Three Wise Monkeys.
As far as I can recall, originally One blind, One deaf, and One dumb.
In this instance all three blind and deaf, and one could heartily wish that all were dumb as well.

Don T.""


KEITH REPLIED:-    ""Don T, we have been on opposite sides throughout, but you have risen above that.
You have recognised that, like the famous monkeys, I have shown wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
You are a fair man.
From your interest, AIDS is clearly an important matter for you.
I expect that you are grateful that I have uncovered some erroneous statements that would have left you operating under serious misconceptions.""

Talk about missing the point!

You, Keith, were indeed one of the three monkeys to whom I was referring, along with Ake and GfS. The word that was out of place was "wise".

Deaf and blind, and the more I hear, the more I believe "DUMB" as well, in its modern sense.

Think twice before you assume that I am complimenting you. That would be the "serious misconception", as you have said nothing on this topic that would merit it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM

Don T, you are priceless!
Keep posting mate.

Royston, it will be an ethical minefield.
I fear that many parents, if given the choice, would prefer the standard model with grandchildren down the line.
If they are not given the choice, people will get round it.
Gender choosing is not supposed to happen now, but male births significantly outnumber females in some communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM

On the program "This American Life" this morning, the narrator described how a psychiatrist noted that all the homosexuals that she knew of—who were undergoing psychotherapy or counseling—were doing so, not directly because of their same-sex orientation, but because of other psychological difficulties, primarily such things as depression and anxiety engendered by the abusive attitudes some people had toward them due to the fact that they were homosexual—not because of their same-sex orientation per se. And it was this that led them to try to seek a cure for their "aberration," not their sexual orientation itself.

So—she rounded up a group of gay men who were not undergoing psychotherapy or counseling, and who, to all appearances, seemed to be perfectly normal and happy just as they were. No salient psychological problems, save their same-sex orientation, which some may have regarded as a problem, but which they did not.

She gave these men a big battery of standardized psychological tests—the whole ball of wax. Then, she took the results to a group of psychiatrists and assigned them the task of picking out any psychological problems. The panel was unable to find any problems of significance. And—NONE of the subjects were identified by the panel as homosexual!

So—is same-sex orientation a psychological aberration? Not so even a panel of psychiatrists would notice.

Now, GfS:

The matter of whether or not same-sex orientation is a condition that needs to be cured or whether or not attempted cures have ever been successful (not) has been gone over on this and the other thread time and time again. I have posted the date several times. And your "refutations" have all taken the form of calling me an "asshole" and saying that the data is "bullshit."

That is hardly what anyone could call "rational discourse."

As I have pointed out several times, there are no documented cases on record (save by unreliable sources such as you, or Richard Cohen, who is completely lacking in training and credentials) of "successful cures" that did not leave the subject in a worse psychological state than before. Often these "treatments" consisted of aversion therapy—presenting homosexual images to the subject, then electrically shocking the subject if they responded. The end result was a group of people who were suffering from anxiety, depression, who avoided the situation by simply abstaining from sexual activity entirely, and in at least one study of 202 subjects, six suicides.

You keep lying by saying that I would prevent same-sex oriented people from seeking psychotherapy or psychological counseling if they are convinced that their orientation is an abnormality. Not true! I have never said that. If they wanted to give it a try, okay. But I think they should at least be made aware of the results (or lack thereof) of previous attempts and the possible psychological "side-effects" of undergoing such therapy. The depression—and the suicides—of the cited study came basically from the fact that the therapy was oversold, and when it didn't work, the subjects tended to blame themselves for the failure. The vast majority of those who participated (78%, as I recall) finally said "To hell with it," and simply returned to their former same-sex activity. But on the other end of the spectrum, as I noted, six of the subjects were so depressed by the failure to achieve a "cure" that they killed themselves.

And as to my "political stance" being "fed" to me, don't be an ass, GfS!! (Sorry. I shouldn't ask the impossible of you.). I see things perfectly clearly, thank you, and I am slave to nobody's "political agenda"—a favorite stock put-down used by both you and Ake in lieu of a sensible response. It signifies nothing in the real world.

And about hopping on the "clue train."

GfS, you couldn't get a clue if it were the middle of clue mating season, you rubbed your body with clue musk, then dashed out into the middle of a field full of horny clues and did the clue mating dance.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM

Just to clarify, the post that Ebbie cited from 2004.

Cruiser says the answer is to turn away and let the homosexuals get on with their lives,but unfortunatly this is getting harder and harder to achieve, as "gay culture " ouzes from every media orifice,
with all its nasty innuendo,like little boys behind the bike shed
and god help anyone who tries to stop them....Ake
PS At least folk music seems to be pretty clear of this scourge.
Just shows what well adjusted ,sensible hetros we are!

It should be obvious that I was referring to the promotion of homosexuality in the media as a scourge in this particular instance.

I did then and still do view homosexual practice based on the latest health figures as unsafe and dangerous...if you wish to catagorise this as a "scourge", feel free....I wounld not.

I do not see Homosexuality as a "disease", more as a state of mind, like bi polar disorder or a form of depression. I base this opinion on psychiatric statistics and personal observation.

In common with the vast majority of heteros, I find homosexual practice repugnant....perhaps homos feel the same way about hetero sex?

I do not agree that in general terms homosexuals can be changed, or even that it would be a good thing, but that does not mean that we should endorse a lifestyle which is so very obviously hazardous.

Right from the start my stance has been on the health figures for homosexuals, why are they so bad? and while they continue to be so bad why are we allowing homosexuality to be looked upon as "just another lifestyle" and absorbed into mainstream society?.The entertainment media contains large numbers of homosexuals, they are certainly over represented and as such are in a prime position to effect the public perception.....the health figures are never presented to the public.
I had no idea they were so bad, untill I started doing some research for these threads.

Royston I think you see my point very well Universal testing and contact tracing would be incredibly expensive and a waste of time and money as such a small percentage of heteros are infected.

To be effecatious, the treatment would have to be targeted on "high risk groups" and would have to be "aggresive" (code for compulsory) as the scientist said. The word "aggressive" or similar was also used in the UNAIDS conclusions further up the thread.

My other point was that the press had no hesitation in naming intravenous drug users in their article, yet the highest by far demographic,Male homosexuals, was classified as "other marginalised groups" Bringing homosexuals into the mainstream, as has been happening over the last few years, has certainly not improved their promiscuity or health statistics!!

So much for the benefits of de-marginalisation!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM

""Male homosexuals, was classified as "other marginalised groups" Bringing homosexuals into the mainstream, as has been happening over the last few years, has certainly not improved their promiscuity or health statistics!!""

96% HIV NEGATIVE!

That hardly bears out your assertions of promiscuity, or of excessive health problems.

Maybe you are confusing them with the 10% of young heterosexual females who are infected with sundry STDs, some of them HIV positive, and promiscuous enough to spread it around rather effectively.

I'll give you a clue Ake. The homosexuals are the ones who are flat chested, and have the bulge in their trousers which so frightens you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM

How do you know they've got a big bulge in their trousers Don??

Does Mrs Don know about this?

Christ! every time I open this threid anither wan o' the buggers jumps oot o' the wardrobe!! :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:41 AM

No, straight as they come, Ake. That's why I don't have your prurient fascination with other peoples' sexual practises.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM

Well said Don,

And to answer your question, Ake, about are homosexuals repulsed by the idea of straight sex, I don't think a lot about any type of sex. There are some women after whom I lust, in my mind. Would/could I actually have sex with them should the opportunity arise...I really don't know. Very probably yes

Most of my straight male friends - who are not screwed up and sexually insecure - are happy to admit to having similar thoughts in reverse.

When you rant on you really do tell us rather more than perhaps you even know yourself, about your hang-ups and insecurities. The rest of us are just getting on with life rather than developing unhealthy obsessions about others.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:43 AM

Can't you guys take a joke......I knew Don didnae live in a wardrobe!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Don T, re your repeated assertion that 96% msms are not infected.
According to HPA
In 2007,    The prevalence of HIV (both diagnosed and undiagnosed infections) among MSM aged 15-44 was estimated to be 8.5% (range 7.0-10.5%)

By 2007, 32% of all MSM seen for HIV care were aged over 45, and 17% were over 50.
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1203928687610

So well over 10% of MSMs are infected.
Probably 12% to 15% or even 20%
For comparison, the great flu pandemic of 1918 killed 3% of population, and the Great Plague of 1665 killed 15%

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:21 PM

In 2007,    The prevalence of HIV (both diagnosed and undiagnosed infections) among MSM aged 15-44 was estimated to be 8.5% (range 7.0-10.5%).

Uh . . . okay, but. . . .

Now, Zippy the Clown might ask at this point, "If a number of men are undiagnosed, how can they be included in any kind of accurate statistics?"

But the, Zippy is only a simple-minded pinhead.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM

From the HPA "about Us" section .
Same link.
The Agency combines public health and scientific knowledge, research and emergency planning within one organisation – and works at international, national, regional and local levels. It also supports and advises other organisations that play a part in protecting health.

The Agency's advice, information and services are underpinned by evidence-based research. It also uses its research to develop new vaccines and treatments that directly help patients. Although set up by government, the Agency is independent and provides whatever advice and information is necessary to protect people's health.

Don Firth, are you casting doubt on the testimony of the greatest professional experts on AIDS in UK?
What would you put the figure at Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM

Sorry Don.
You were only asking right?
I was thinking of Royston trying to dismiss expert restimony that contradicted his own views.
The numbers of undiagnosed infected people is calculated from the numbers of infections discovered fortuitously when carrying out unrelated procedures.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM

Okay. Thank you, Keith.

It's just that I hear so many figures bandied about (and not just here) with the word "estimate" attached to them that one would rather like to know if these estimates are based on anything substantial, or merely the bias of those presenting the statistics.

It pays to be cautious and skeptical in a world in which propaganda and disinformation exceed actual hard data by many orders of magnitude.

Mark Twain said it when he outlined "lies" in order of enormity:

"There are lies, damned lies--and statistics."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM

Statistics, from a reputable source are many times more pertinent than political dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:37 PM

True. But one should be sure to destinguish between political dogma and verifiable scientific data.

Even when--especially when--the scientific data does not support one's personal biases and the political dogma one has accepted.

Being willing to change one's mind in the face of the facts is a test of one's character and personal integrity.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:52 PM

"Being willing to change one's mind in the face of the facts is a test of one's character and personal integrity."

Well the floor is yours Don!

The oppositions case has been based on "liberal" political dogma, and has been proved wanting.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM

Once again, Ake, you demonstrate that you have no grasp of the meaning of "liberal." Unless you are using the word in some specialized local sense. A phrase like "liberal dogma" is a self-contradiction.

The subject of this thread (which people keep dodging) is the matter of human rights in Uganda. The American fundamentalist evangelical religious group, "The Family," that has been pushing this to the Ugandan lawmakers is calling for the slaughter of God knows how many human beings merely because of their sexual preference. Very Christian of them!!   

You're not saying that opposing those who advocate the passing of such viciously discriminatory laws is merely an issue of "liberal dogma" are you?

I suggest that you learn a little about political science and what words like "liberal" and "conservative" really mean, as opposed to the way they are used loosely by propagandists before you start flinging "catchphrases" like "liberal dogma" around (see Zippy cartoon I posted).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM

Don: (from Twain)""There are lies, damned lies--and statistics."

Don's reply to Ake: "Statistics, from a reputable source are many times more pertinent than political dogma."

Don: "Being willing to change one's mind in the face of the facts is a test of one's character and personal integrity."

GfS: THIS IS COMING FROM YOU???????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:20 PM

Damned straight, GfS.

When are YOU going to start telling the truth?

When your posted that item on the Prop 8 thread about your father and it came back in this thread to bite you on the ass, THEN you accused ME of posting it, I contacted Joe to determine where it came from. Joe found that it had come from YOUR computer.

That vaporized any vestige of credibility you ever had.

NOTHING you say is worth paying any attention to.

Crawl back under your rock.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM

Don: "NOTHING you say is worth paying any attention to."

GfS: Not to you...too bad...."When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing."

Highly happy, and wishing you the best!

Guest from Sanity

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:47 AM

"When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing."

One of your many rubber stamps, I take it. Too bad you have no real idea of what the words mean,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:12 AM

Don Firth, since Royston came on 10th Jan, this thread has NOT been about Uganda.
He asserted that AIDS was spreading in the general population because of dangerous behaviour, and that AIDS affected rather few MSMs and that was due to "networks" not behaviour.
You took his side, and called Akeneaton's stats. skewed when they were accurate and Royston's were deceiving.

Royston and Don T have been proved wrong on everything they have said.

Being willing to change one's mind in the face of the facts is a test of one's character and personal integrity. Can you rise to that test Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:25 AM

WE have seen that there has been no increase in general HIV infection, that AIDS is raging in plague like proportions among MSMs, and actually increasing.
This increase is said to be due to worsening behaviour, except by Royston who blames it on "networks."

There is no shame in being proved wrong, but Royston and Don T have couched every groundless attack on my position in the most offensive, personal, unprovoked abuse.
They have called me liar, bare faced liar, racist, homophobe, bigot, dim, idiot, and on and on.
And all the while I was the one telling the truth.

Each time I show them to be wrong they just slink away for awhile and then come back with another groundless attack and more abuse.
I even appealed that we were all friends in folk and we should be able to disagree with civility.
That was thrown back at me with more abuse.

Twice now I have accused Royston of knowing all along that the increase in hetero infection was due to African immigration, and that he was attempting to perpetrate a huge Stalinist lie upon the forum to promote his worthless ideology.
So far he has chosen not to reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:06 AM

Don: "When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing."

One of your many rubber stamps, I take it. Too bad you have no real idea of what the words mean,

Don Firth

GfS: "Don: "NOTHING you say is worth paying any attention to."

You wouldn't be lying, again, would you?..It's all just theater, for ya' huh?

GfS: Not to you...too bad...."When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing."

Highly happy, and wishing you the best!

Guest from Sanity

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 11:13 AM

Keith, Don is somewhat beyond his own control. Reminded me of this:

Don Firth's Logic


"Don: "NOTHING you say is worth paying any attention to."
GfS: P.S. Best wishes, and may you get a hard on!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:34 PM

Keith, you can toss yourself off into thin air all you like.

We know what you are.

Our business was concluded here on the cusp of your half-term holiday. Reinventing it now is not going to impress anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:36 PM

1900!