Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 11:46 AM

Monique: belated thanks for the link to 'die Deutsche Geistliche Lieder'.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: GUEST,FrankTrades
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 09:06 AM

Unfortunately the link, http://deckernet.com/shed/other.htm
no longer works.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:32 PM

Forget what I said about the Ukrainians- they do speak Ukrainian, but with added elements fronm the eastern part of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. Scrambled brain, too oldt too soon!
I was thinking about the Hutterites, and lost the way.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: GUEST,Leeneia
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:12 PM

Thanks, Q. Thats interesting.

I remember taking a trip to Manitoba as a teenager and being charmed by a little, little church with an onion dome.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:29 PM

Here in Alberta, we have a large 'Ukrainian' element but they are from Moravia, Ruthenia and other eastern European areas that once were part of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. In day to day communication, etc., they speak a "low German" with various roots, Austrian-Bavarian-Carinthian. In worship they use the language of Luther. They all receive grade school level and many to the ninth grade in English, so they are not isolated from the Canadian English-speaking majority.
Hutterite German and Amish Pennsylvanian German are not mutually intelligible, the Amish having more of a Tyrolean base.

Farther north in the province are some Mennonite settlements; I don't know anything about their dialect.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 03:25 PM

Thanks for the additional versions, Artful Codger. That is a new element - telling the shepherd's point of view in the day following the appearance of the angels.

With a date of 1760 on the Bavarian words, we are even approaching the 'early music' category which is a special interest for our gang.

Joe, I once read a book on the history of the German language. I was surprised to learn how many Germanic languages there were that I had never heard of. Some of them, of course, are no longer used.

I particularly remember the author exclaiming that the Pennsylvania Dutch spoke "Rhenish Franconian, not Deutsch!"

And I had never even heard of Rhenish Franconian.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 01:05 PM

Thanks, Monique- A valuable resource. I picked up v. 3 years ago, now I must look for it to see what it contains.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Monique
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 03:15 AM

Link to the song page with score and all that Artful mentioned.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 01:28 AM

This turned out to be a very interesting study. I've dabbled in Yiddish and a number of German "Plattdeutsch" dialects. Some are close to English or Dutch, some closer to Scandinavian languages, and some remind me of Yiddish. There's something wonderfully colorful about this wide variety of dialects.
-Joe-

Subject: Lyr Add: Auf, auf ihr Hirten, nicht schlaffet...
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 01:11 AM

From Weihnachtslieder aus Niederösterreich (Christmas Carols from Lower Austria), p.27; edited by Prof. August Hofer. Verlag des Niederösterreiches Landes-Lehrerseminars, Wiener-Neustadt, 1890.


XVII.*)

1.
Auf, auf ihr Hirten,
Nicht schlafet so lang!
Die Nacht ist vergangen.
Es scheint schon die Sonn'.
[: Ein Kindlein klein, :]
Das unser Erlöser
Und Heiland sollt sein.

2.
Eine seltsame Musik
In Wolken erklingt,
Das Gloria in excelsis
Ein Engel vorsingt.
[: Los nur grad zua :]
Gelt Urwal,1) es gfallt da?
I glaub das, mein Bua.

3.
Zu Betlahem drunten
Geht nieder der Schein,
Es muaß ja was Himmlisch's
Verborgen drunt sein.
[: Ein alter Stall. :]
Der scheint und glänzt
Als wia ein Krystall.

4.
Geh nur, mein Fritzal,
Und b'sinn di nit lang.
Stich ab a foast's Kitzal
Und geh ma an Gang.
[: Buck di fein schön :]
Und ruck flugs dein Hüatal,
Wanns d' eini thuast gehn.

5.
Ein sehr alter Datl
In eisgrauen Bart
Den liebreichen Kindal
Gar fleißig aufwart,
[: Auf bloßer Erd :]
Zart Jungfräulein
Den Heiland verehrt.

6.
Zwischen zwei Thierlein,
Ein Esel und Rind,
Liegt ganz erfroren
Das liebreiche Kind.
[: O großer Gott :]
I trau mirs nit z'sagen,
I scham mi zu todt.

* P.180
1. Urbau

Subject: Lyr Add: Auf, auf ihr Hirten, nicht schlaffet...
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 12:47 AM

Guided by the version Reinhard found, I've hunted up a couple other, more extended versions. First, the oldest, from the Bayern (ca. 1760):

Source: Archiv für das Studium der neueren Sprachen und Literaturen, Volumes 115-116, pp. 33-34; Berliner Gesellschaft für das Studium der neueren Sprachen. George Westermann [printer], Braunschwig, 1905.


5. Auf, auf ihr Hirten, nicht schlafet so lang.

Die Handschrift 980 (aus ca. 1760) der Universitätsbibliothek in Innsbruck enthalt von diesem Liede eine Fassung aus Bayern, die von allen bisher bekannten Fassungen durch eine Zusatzstrophe und auch sonst abweicht.

43[aj] De Christo nascente.

1. Auf, auf ihr hirten, nicht schlaffet so lang!
Die nacht ist vergangen, es scheinet die sonn.
-|- ein kindlein klein, -|-
das unser erlöser und heyland soll sein.

2. zu Betlehem drunten geht nider der schein,
еs mues ja was himlisches verborgen drunten sein.
-|- ein alter stall -|-
erglänzet und scheinet als wie ein Cristall.

3. ein selzame music in wolckhen erklingt,
das gloria in xcelsis ein Engl vorsingt.
-|- los nur grad zue, -|-
gelt urbel, es gfalt dir, i glaub dirs, mei bue.

4. so geh nu mei Frizl und bsin di nit lang,
stich ab mei feine kizl und wag halt ein gang.
-|- buckh dich fein schön -|-
und ruckh flux dein hietl, wan d'eini wilst gehn.

5. zwischen zwey thieren, den esl und rind,
do ligt ganz erstarret das liebreiche kind.
-|- o großer gott, -|-
ich trau mire nicht z'sagen, ich scham mich zu todt.

6. ein uralte[r] tattl in eisgrauen barth
den liebreichen kindlein ganz fleißig aufwarth.
-|- auf bloßer erd -|-
ein zartes jungfreilein den heiland verehrt.

7. o göttliches kindlein, verschmech es doch nit,
wir opfern ein lämmlein, erhör unser bitt.
-|- o gotteslamm, -|-
nimm hin unsre sinden, es ist ja dein nam.

Archiv f. n. Sprachen. CXV.


Other versions mentioned in the citations come from upper and lower Austria, the Erzgebirge region (now Czech), Oberungarn and the Bayern. The next earliest version cited is from lower Austria (1819, four verses), reprinted in a later collection (1846).

There are several different carols titled "Auf, auf ihr Hirten" (akin to "Shepherds arise"), so beware. I found a few MP3 samples at Amazon, such as the one by Bozner Domchor; they're singing the second verse. This should give you a sample for comparison, or you could listen to the MIDI leeneia referenced.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:30 PM

Thanks very much, Reinhard and Q.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:18 PM

Reminds me of problems with some of the words in translations of Bach's low German secular cantatas; the meaning has been lost, thus the words are left untranslated in English transcriptions. Orff in the songs used in his Carmina burana similarly found some words untranslatable; the middle Latin meanings similarly lost (problems as well with the old vernacular Germanic used in other in the Carmina burana collection.

Reitmann, like others, did his best to indicate pronunciation; Artful Codger's suggestion for the å seems correct, since the pronunciation he suggests is standard in keys to pronunciation.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Reinhard
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:14 PM

http://www.lyricstime.com/weihnachtslieder-auf-auf-ihr-hirten-lyrics.html has the first three verses with a bit of less Austrian dialect:

Auf, auf, ihr Hirten

Auf, auf, ihr Hirten, nicht schlaft mir so lang',
die Nacht ist vergangen, nun taget es schon.
Schaut's nur daher, schaut's nur daher,
wie glänzet das Sternlein je länger je mehr.

Zu Bethlehem drunten geht wieder der Schein.
Es muß ja was köstlich's verborgen dort sein,
an einem Stall, an einem Stall,
da scheint es und glänzt es, als wär' es Kristall.

Drum geh' nur, mein Fritzel, und b'sinn dich nicht lang!
Steck' an eine Kerze und wag' nur den Gang.
Bück' dich fein schön, neig' dich fein schön,
zieh' ab flugs dein Hütel, wenn ein du willst gehn.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:03 PM

Yes, you are confused. I'm quite familiar with German thankyouverymuch, and Reinmann (the editor of the cited text) was German. If you'd bothered to look at the original text: you'd have seen that it says "English's" plain as day (cf. High German englischer Gruß = angelic salutation). And if you'd bothered to follow Monique's link to the Wikipedia article on Austrian dialects you'd have seen the ringed A's in the samples. How do you know the ringed A's were introduced into Austrian dialect, as opposed to being abandoned in High German?

The most marked dialect differences occur in south Austria, so I think your guess at Nordic influence is unlikely. Austria is surrounded by a richness of other language influences, like the Swiss, Italians, Hungarians and Slavs. Borrowings from these would be unavoidable.

Nor is the dialect in this song that unrecognizable. There are some very common patterns which one also happens to find in Yiddish: a's instead of e's, simplified spelling (dropped schwa e's, h for ch), absence of final r's, frequent diphthongs (cf. southern U.S. drawl)... If you take those into account, the dialect resembles "Deutsch" as much as High German (itself a dialect) does—the two just mutated in different ways.

As for singing it, the pronunciation seems predictable. If you need help or want a High German version, I offer the same advice I gave Joe: ask the folks at ingeb.org.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:13 AM

Thanks, Artful Codger. I appreciate your efforts, though I'm confused. This looks like a blend of German with some Scandinavian tongue. Even if Austrians put dots over their A's, can:

4. Fain gmala[4] knia nieda un buk dih fain eh!

be Deutsch?

There's a mistake in verse two (English for some form of Engel) which makes me think that whoever posted the verses was unfamiliar with German. I've seen this kind of mistake before.

Maybe the carol was merely found in Austria, not written there. It is interesting to study, but I would feel very unsure of myself trying to sing it.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:27 AM

Considering I transcribed it pretty much from (a scan of) the horse's mouth, I'm guessing å. You can see for yourself at Google Books.

As for the pronunciation, ask an Austrian, though I believe it's like å in Nordic languages (a darker "ah", akin to ô?)

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Monique
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:49 AM

Look at the bottom of this page, there are samples of Austrian and Bavarian and you can see some å's. Now, which is it, that is the question.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:23 AM

All's I know is it's Austrian. Apparently Reinmann thought even Germans would need translations in a few spots, so I can empathize. I'd hoped to find a standard-German version somewhere (since I can't imagine most Germans wanting to sing in dialect), but I'd wasted enough time hunting to get this far. Maybe the folks at ingeb.org will lend a hand, if you ask them.

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:42 AM

Artful Codger, do you have any idea what dialect the song is in? I can make out most of it, but parts are near-impossible for me to understand.
-Joe-

Subject: Lyr Add: DIE HIRTEN AUF DEM FELDE
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 10:34 PM

Ich habe es gefunden! Here's a transcription from Das Deutsche Geistliche Lied... by Heinrich Reinmann, pp.15-16 (Band/Volume VI, no. 135; with score), 1895:

Die Hirten auf dem Felde. [The Shepherds in the Field]
Oesterreichisches Weihnachtslied. [Austrian Christmas song]
Anfang des XIX Jahrhunderts. [beginning of the 19th century]

1. Auf, auf, ehs Hiartn, nid schlåft's ma so lång!
de Nåcht is vånga, nun dågt es jå schon.
Schauts nuar dåhear! Schauts nuar dåhear!
Wia fairåzt[1] dås Schtearndl je lenga je meahr.

2. Bet-lehm druntn geht nida da Schain,
es muass jå was Englisch's vaborg'n drunt sain.
An ålda Schtoll,[2] an ålda Schtoll,
dear schaint und glånzt eng åls wiara[3] Kry ståll!

3. Drum geh' nur, main Sepl, und b'sinn dih nit lang!
Stich åh a fast's Kiz'l, und wåg dr an'n Gång:
geh' nit vüll um, geh' nit vüll um,
und ruk flugs dain Hiaderl und schtöll dih fain frumm!

4. Fain gmala[4] knia nieda un buk dih fain eh!
Und ruk fluks dain Hiaderl, wånnst aini wüllst gehn.
Buk dich fain schen, nag di fain schen,
und ruk flugs dain Hiaderl, wånnst aini wüllst gehn.

[1] glänzt. [2] ein alter Stall. [3] wie ein. [4] Fein gemach

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM

Try "Hirten auf dem Felde" (no final N); it will also help to use German Google (www.google.de). I suspect that the Lecosaldi Ensemble listing is a typo which has been propagated by the other site. The title simply means "shepherds in the field", so there are lots of matches to German translations of biblical passages, just as there are lots of English carols based on the "while shepherds watched their flocks by night" or "shepherds abiding in the fields" passages.

You may encounter some confusion with a song written by Franz Schubert "Der Hirt auf dem Felsen" ("The Shepherd on the Rock", D 965/opus 129), with text from a poem by Wilhelm Müller, "Der Berghirt" ("The Mountain Shepherd"). Note that "Hirt" in the accusative is "Hirten", so it often appears in German commentary in that form. This has led careless English speakers to mistakenly quote the title in the accusative form or to translate the word as "Shepherds".

Subject: RE: Austrian carol: As Lately I Watched
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:30 PM

"Die Hirten auf dem Felden" listed in google as having been sung by the Lecosaldi Ensemble, but German words not given.
German title given but English lyrics only at "Hymns and Carols of Christmas." Not in Oxford Book of Carols.

"Kommt ihr Hirten" comes close, but not the one asked for.

No luck.

Subject: Austrian carol: As Lately We Watched
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:14 PM

While looking for Christmas to play with friends, I came across a MIDI of this delightful carol. You can go to this site:

http://deckernet.com/shed/other.htm

scroll down, and click to hear it. The arranger, who seems to be Michael Petri, has done a wonderful job. I can see my friends having a great time as the melody moves from flute to harp to recorder and back.

I have found the lyrics in English, but would like to have the German original. Please let me know if you have them, or even if you have the original German name, which may appear on a choral edition of it.

Thanks.
==============
The original MIDI had some very messy passages, which I have fixed. It was also in a key and a range suitable for brass instruments. If anybody is interested in something this complex, please ask, and I will send my new MIDI to Joe for posting.