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Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube

MGM·Lion 03 Dec 09 - 03:38 PM
catspaw49 03 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM
Amos 03 Dec 09 - 04:36 PM
Joe Offer 03 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM
Don Firth 03 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Dec 09 - 06:16 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Dec 09 - 11:24 PM
Amergin 03 Dec 09 - 11:39 PM
Little Hawk 06 Dec 09 - 04:01 AM
Bonzo3legs 06 Dec 09 - 05:08 AM
alanabit 06 Dec 09 - 05:24 AM
Jack Campin 06 Dec 09 - 06:17 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Dec 09 - 06:25 AM
GUEST 06 Dec 09 - 06:45 AM
Howard Jones 06 Dec 09 - 06:47 AM
Jack Campin 06 Dec 09 - 06:59 AM
Jack Campin 06 Dec 09 - 07:03 AM
ToeRag 06 Dec 09 - 07:38 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Dec 09 - 07:53 AM
ToeRag 06 Dec 09 - 07:59 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Dec 09 - 08:13 AM
ard mhacha 06 Dec 09 - 08:19 AM
ToeRag 06 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM
Bettynh 06 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM
NormanD 06 Dec 09 - 05:24 PM
oldhippie 06 Dec 09 - 09:00 PM
Ron Davies 06 Dec 09 - 10:25 PM
Ron Davies 06 Dec 09 - 10:29 PM
Ron Davies 06 Dec 09 - 10:49 PM
olddude 06 Dec 09 - 11:09 PM
GUEST,Christine Hell 12 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM
Stringsinger 12 Jun 10 - 01:59 PM
Joe_F 12 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM
maple_leaf_boy 12 Jun 10 - 07:21 PM
LadyJean 12 Jun 10 - 11:37 PM
Little Hawk 13 Jun 10 - 12:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 10 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,ruairiobroin 13 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM
robomatic 13 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM
Royston 13 Jun 10 - 04:01 PM
mg 13 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Mrbenggo 07 Aug 10 - 10:19 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Aug 10 - 11:15 AM
Jack Campin 07 Aug 10 - 11:29 AM
Marc Bernier 08 Aug 10 - 08:44 AM
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Subject: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:38 PM

An odd experience to share & call for comment on. After watching this year's Queen's Birthday parade, the Trooping of the Colour, during which I enjoyed as always the fine march called The Old Grenadier, I googled this tune on YouTube and found an excellent version by the band of the Scots Guards. The RelatedVideos panel alongside took me to Old Glory flagging the US 7th Cavalry fifes and drums, followed by the full band, playing Irish marches: Garryowen and St Patrick's Day.

But what was my amazement to find as an optional RelatedVideo alongside that one, German Military March WWII, with the Swastika Flag as logo; and clicking curiously on that, I opened a veritable never·ending succession of videos of Hitler & his acolytes receiving salutes and inspecting march·pasts and parades of the Waffen SS, the Afrika Korps, the HitlerYouth··· ? literally dozens, if not hundreds, of these ? leading in their turn to photo-galleries of Der Führer and his friends ? Himmler, Göring... And Nazi propaganda videos, with English commentaries by unmistakeably English voices, about e.g. General Dietrich's skilled formation of crack units of Waffen SS...

So it went on ··· And all this starting but a couple of mouse-clicks from the Scots Guards and the Old Grenadier ? all available free-online on YouTube. Did you know it was there? Is it available worldwide? I am reeling at these facts and their implications.

Any Catter care to comment?


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM

Still appalls me, but I ceased to be surprised or amazed at what I have found on YouTube over the past couple of years..........They pull many things that have been complained about as pornography but rarely do anything about this type of stuff. Welcome to the net....................***sigh***.................I don't mean that as you're less experienced, more like I am just being sarcastic when facing the fact that the net will always be the ultimate mixed blessing.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:36 PM

If these are historical records of what actually occurred in Germany, I can tolerate their being on YouTube. If they are somehow seeking to glorify the Reich they ought to be banned as hate speech. The facts of history should be faced squarely, but its extremes and psycoses shouldn't be embraced.



A


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

There was a request at Mudcat for lyrics to a World War II German sailors' song, so I went looking at YouTube. I found the song in the index, along with a number of other WWII German military songs, but almost all of them had been deleted. I was disappointed because I would have found them interesting from a linguistic and historical standpoint - even if they may have been posted by those seeking to glorify the Third Reich. And yes, they may have been produced by 'those seeking to glorify the Third Reich,' but I'm a big boy and not likely to become a Nazi by looking at German military films. Those who already think highly of the Nazis may find inspiration in Nazi films, but I'm not sure that so horribly dangerous - if they don't watch the films, they'll get inspired somewhere else. If I can't watch the films because they've been censored, then I don't have that opportunity to learn about Nazi propaganda from primary-source materials.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM

I'm afraid I couldn't find the video in question, but I dunno what goes on with YouTube sometimes.

But I think one should not be too quick to characterize music as "Nazi music."

From 1973 to '76, I worked as an announcer for a classical music station in Seattle. One late afternoon, while hosting "Sunset Symphony," the featured work was a Beethoven symphony. It was a Saturday, the office staff was off, and I was alone in the studio. I had the commercials all pulled for the next break (after the symphony), which would be the better part of an hour away, and I was sitting there with my feet propped up, with a cup of relatively fresh coffee in my hand, enjoying the music coming through the studio monitors (very hi-fi), when the telephone lit up (no ringer, in case the phone should ring when you have the mic open). "Good afternoon, KXA. Don Firth speaking."

My ear was blasted by a volley of mixed German and heavily accented English, very loud, very angry, and totally incomprehensible. When the caller finally ran out of steam, I was able to determine that what the irate caller was on about was that I was playing "Nazi music!" Not only that, earlier in the day, Harald Gierke hosted his program, "The Continental Hour," on which he played classical and folk music from the European continent, including (being German himself) some German music. Harald, whom I knew well, was passionately anti-fascist, anti-Nazi. He played a lot of dances, accordion music, and frequent excerpts from Engelbert Humperdinck's (no, not the singer) opera, Hansel und Gretel ("Evening Prayer"?sung by two children lost in the woods as night is falling?is one of the most touching pieces of music ever written). Nevertheless, the caller raged about all that "Nazi music" that Harald had played earlier in the day. I didn't hear Harald's program, but knowing him, I knew that simply wasn't the case. And that I was now playing Beethoven was just more than he could stand!

Anyway?it seems that Beethoven was one of Hitler's favorite composers, as was Richard Wagner. This caller could not be pacified. I didn't have the heart to tell him that tomorrow's (Sunday) opera excerpts program would feature arias and incidental music from Wagner's Die Meistersinger.

Wagner was a bit of a shit and an anti-Semite to boot, but despite that, he wrote some monumentally magnificent music. And he died six years before Hitler was born. And Beethoven (who died 66 years before Hitler was born) was a surly SOB, but then he was a professional musician and a composer who discovered that he was going deaf, so under circumstances like that, wouldn't you tend to be a bit cranky too?

But "Nazi music?" I don't really think so.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 06:16 PM

Yes, I have seen these videos. Even more interesting are some of the comments that accompany them. There are definitely people posting and commenting on these videos that are Neo-Nazis and Nazi sympathizers. There are also Germans who, while not Hitler fans, had fathers and grandfathers who fought and died for Germany in World War 2. I have exchanged messages with some of both stripes. From them I learned of the thousands of German captives who starved to death in the Rhine Meadows camps near the end of the war. I think we have to be careful when condemning scenes of the Wehrmacht goose-stepping to martial music as hate speech. Despite, or due to, their sins, Germany suffered horribly in the war, losing a generation of young men, along with countless thousands of civilian casualties. While I shudder at images of the swastika crackling in the breeze and the smirking Fuhrer in his limousine, I feel tremendous sadness when I look into the eyes of the doomed German soldiers.
My opinion anyway.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:24 PM

I take points made above. What moved me to OP this thread was the EASE of clicking, in just 3 clicks, from our Scots Guards, via the US Cavalry, to the Waffen SS, having found the Swastika flag & German Army WWII Marches in the right-hand 'recommendation: if you liked that one you might liked this one also' column, right adjacent to the Stars & Stripes/US 7th Cavalry. Who at YouTube makes these decisions & posts these links, I wonder? Why did they think that US Cavalry march lovers might enjoy the Wehrmacht link, but not the Scots Guards seekers?

I remain slightly dazed by the entire phenomenon.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:39 PM

Well not a whole lot of difference is there? They're all practiced hands at genocide...


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:01 AM

My feelings on this matter are the same as those expressed by Joe Offer and LEJ above.

I have also met Germans who served in the war, and they've all been decent, normal men who just happened to be there and tried to defend their unit and stay alive. I have some feeling for the young soldiers who suffered and died in ALL the armed forces in that war, and so do they.

As Joe said, "I'm a big boy and not likely to become a Nazi by looking at German military films. Those who already think highly of the Nazis may find inspiration in Nazi films, but I'm not sure that's so horribly dangerous - if they don't watch the films, they'll get inspired somewhere else. If I can't watch the films because they've been censored, then I don't have that opportunity to learn about Nazi propaganda from primary-source materials."

I am very opposed to the values the Nazis promoted in regards to race hatred and supposed "master race" theories, etc. I am totally opposed to Naziism in every way. But I am not opposed to finding out about past history of the Nazis through archival film footage, I find it very interesting, and I am not the least bit threatened or compromised by being able to view Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, and the rest of those scoundrels spewing their propaganda and doing whatever they did at that time, because if I can SEE it, then I know far better the face of my enemy and what to watch for in the present political context which is where the real danger is. If I cannot see it, because someone censcors it, then I have been robbed of the opportunity to know the history of what happened by my own direct obesrvation, and that would just be stupid.

You do not protect people by keeping them selectively ignorant of what occurred in the past. You may control them that way...through ignorance...but you certainly don't protect them.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:08 AM

Don't forget -

Hitler has only got one ball,
Göring has two but very small,
Himmler is very sim'lar,
But poor Goebbels has no balls at all.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:24 AM

I agree completely with Joe, LEJ and Little Hawk. In fact, I also have a strong tendency to believe that showing old Nazi news clips actually undermines the Nazi cause. At the time they were made, the style looked dynamic and persuasive. In retrospect they look bombastic and silly. They were already devastatingly parodied by Charlie Chaplin in The Great Dictator, even as war was breaking out. I think it is the more modern, insidious forms of propoganda, which are more dangerous nowadays.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:17 AM

You get fascist comments on all sorts of music videos on YouTube - I come across a lot of them looking for music from the Balkans, Turkey and the Caucasus. The content of the music doesn't make any difference to the intensity of the bile, so I doubt if quarantining videos with explicit Nazi content would reduce the amount of pro-Nazi advocacy out there.

There are also *recent* Nazi music videos, Wagnerian rock and electronica with Teutonic imagery which doesn't have explicit Nazi symbols but which attracts the same sort of commentary as the real thing. Coded communication, but it's being decoded loud and clear. I can't imagine any formal rules that would characterize that stuff in such a way that it could be restricted.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:25 AM

Sorry - misclicked. But while I'm on: not necessarily even asking for censorship or restriction or whatever ? it was my surprise at the ease & nature of the links - Old Glory alongside Swastika for 2 Military March vids - that first triggered my OP-ing this thread.
M·the·New·Beardie ;~)§


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:45 AM

When I was a kid, my dad used to sit me on his knee and sing, very loudly, the songs and marches he had heard the german prisoners of war singing. He loved the German marches he heard during the war (including the Horst Wessel song and one whose words in English I remember were "We're marching into England).

Once satellite tv arrived he managed to access a couple of german tv programmes and watched those almost as much as he watched English tv.

He also loved English military marches and we would sing along whenever they came on the wireless, banging on the arms of the chair as though it were some great bass drum.

He had no Nazi sympathies whatsoever - he loathed them with a passion - he had lost many friends to the Nazis during the war, in fact he wrote a book on his war experiences just before he died.

But he loved the music and was able to disassociate it from whatever political message was there, even if the music had been written specifically to support a political cause.

As far as the music is concerned, a good march is a good march no matter who chooses to use it.

Weasel


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:47 AM

YouTube seems to use a fairly unsophisticated system to link "related" videos, presumably based on the tags and descriptions which the posters themselves supply. Some of the videos an item links to are useful, some are only vaguely connected, while some turn out to be serendipitously interesting.

If you think of all these simply as examples of military music it is hardly surprising that they are linked together. It is only the surrounding connotations which makes it seem strange, but that is probably too complex an idea for YouTube's computers to deal with. Neither, perhaps, should they - after all, if you are interested in examples of military music then you would be interested in these links. I think most people are capable of making their own decisions over which suggested links they wish to follow.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:59 AM

I posted a comment making the same point as Howard Jones but it seems to have vanished.

A corollary to this. Some uploaders do "tag spamming", throwing in all sorts of irrelevant links in an attempt to suck in viewers interested in quite different things. You can't really complain about a video of Nazi marching music being tagged with some of the same identifiers as those used for an American college marching band, but if they start using the kind of tags a morris dance video would need, it's reasonable to complain to YouTube about it. The mechanism for making a complaint is simple if you're logged in as a registered user.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:03 AM

oops. "terms" not "links", that could have been confusing.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:38 AM

One would think, the world's history began with World War 2 (the Nazis).


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:53 AM

ToeRag, what is it about your posts that I so often find so gnomic and enigmatic?

You might well rejoin that that's my problem, not yours; but I suspect you will know whence I am coming

LoL


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:59 AM

But is it without meaning ...


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:13 AM

Is WHAT without WHAT meaning...
head·spins·eyes·blink·mind·blanks·aaaarrrrgggghhh!!!


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:19 AM

With an interest in marches and a hell of a distance removed from fascism I have seen most of these idiots belting out their nonsense on You Tube. Worth a look is that brilliant march Gloria Prussia, an old Chilean march past is featured which includes mass murderer and great friend of Thatcher and the CIA, General Pinochet, the women in the march look more threating than the men.
My note in English to the Site regarding Pinochet as a mass killer didn`t go down too well, although some of the replies gave me a laugh.
Giving due praise to the bands their contribution was excellent.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM

I think the Aboriginal people would rather see the British on You Tube rather than in australie? Be thankful for small mercy's.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:21 PM

When my boys were young teenagers I sat them down and made them watch Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of Will." I had to hunt had for the used videotape, and it was primitive - no commentary, not even any translation. But we dug into it. Those young men at the rally were the same age or a bit older than my boys. It seemed important to me that we discuss how that happened, and what came of it. If we're going to live in a society that allows free speech, we have to learn to listen carefully and think about what the popular lockstep means and implies.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: NormanD
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:24 PM

There are many pro-nazi songs on YouTube that remain uncensored, both the descriptions from the posters, such as "Germans never exterminated anyone, least of all the Jews" and viewers' comments, for example "Kill the Jews!!".   I saw these in relation to the "Horst Wessel", which IS the nazi anthem, and not a piece of appropriated music.

We're not talking Wagner or Beethoven here. This is just ugly, unadorned, ignorant hate. Are there similar celebratory vids of the KKK, for example, on YouTube?

A german troops' marching song, played on its own, with just a static translation of the words, for example, is a piece of musicological history. When the background is flags and glorifying photos of the leaders, it's political propaganda. Imagery changes values.

YouTube, I assume, couldn't care less about what goes on line. The continuing presence of all the pro-nazi insults and ignorance proves that to me. And what does it care about the ease of jumping from one link to another? Marching songs are marching songs....


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: oldhippie
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:00 PM

In response to Don Firth's post on 03 Dec, his story of a caller to the radio studio, and his observation:

But I think one should not be too quick to characterize music as "Nazi music."

I agree. We had a guest at a Sunday morning church service several years ago, and one hymn chosen for that Sunday was "Light of Ages and of Nations" - words Samuel Longfellow's (1819-1892). This hymn has two tunes; "Oude en nieuwe Hollantse Boerenlites en Contradanseu, c. 1710; and the tune chosen for that particular service by Franz Joseph Haydn (1732-1809). Well, when the hymn concluded, this gent stood up and accused the service leader of playing Nazi music. He then left and we never saw him again.

Nazi music, I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:25 PM

Sounds as if the tune used was the one later used for "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles"--and indeed that tune has been used for many songs.   We've had some threads on this.   But the tune was first used to honor an Austrian emperor.   And even "Deutschland" was meant to counter the particularism of the many states which made up what became the German state. It was not a declaration of intent to conquer the world. The current German state uses the 3rd verse: "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (unity and justice and freedom"), not the first verse.

However, depending on the experience of a listener during the 3rd Reich, it could obviously be a hugely emotionally-laden song.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:29 PM

even a hugely emotion-laden tune, regardless of the words. I see no reason why the tune should be banished--but we can understand various perspectives on it.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:49 PM

I believe that one of the hymns which used to use this tune is:   "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken, Zion, City of Our God". I don't know if it's still used. Lots of hymns have been banished from hymnals for all sorts of imagined flaws.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: olddude
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:09 PM

I think its great, cause ya see, if they are a hate group, the worst thing for decent folks is to have them hide in the corner, then noone knows who they are. But when they post hate online. I can absolutely assure you Big Brother is watching and knows who and where they are ... and that is good thing I think.

Like Joe said , some of it is posted for historical reasons and research .. so that is cool also


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: GUEST,Christine Hell
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

Hi I am German and moved to new york before I came to live in England . I am a guitarist and and hooked up with a bunch of metallers from the UK.   They were from Russia , Poland and Britain ,originally. They were kids and didn t say much. Over the years they started spouting , dribbling about Extreme rightwing propaganda. It ended with me leaving the band in disgust and them using my material on the web of course always carefully since neo nazis are cowards. Hell, yeah swastikas and etc as if it was a fashion accesorie. { sorry asse s rory). Fashion ah fascinating like " have I got news for you" .... Fascists fascinating.
While they are prowling in the streets to beat up some asian guy other Brits still fantasise about black and white Nazis ca. 1951


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:59 PM

I agree with Joe Offer. Let the trash be seen. No censorship.

In our programs we explain "The Bonny Blue Flag", the original secession flag of South Carolina for the Confederacy and follow it with "Rally 'Round the Flag" stating the Union side. We've done this for school children as a part of American history. We explain that the "Battle Flag" of the Confederacy was re-instituted by George Wallace in 1954 as a propaganda medium for segregation and became part of the Alabama State Flag.

We need to turn over the rocks and show the roaches.

As for Don's unfortunate situation on radio, Hitler appropriated everything that he could including music but it didn't work. Even Nietzche would have disliked Hitler.

I have my suspicions about Ayn Rand however.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM

One may well have one's suspicions about Wagner, too. I have seen a statement by him that could have come straight out of Mein Kampf.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 07:21 PM

I also was watching a Scottish video, and related videos were of the
Confederate army from the U.S. Civil War. Youtube does have a weird
way of displaying related videos. I'd be listening to some folk music
and the related videos would sometimes be modern pop songs (last five
years) that have nothing to do with the video I'm playing.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:37 PM

I have seen God only knows how much Nazi film on the History Channel. I am no more sympathetic to Hitler now than I was before said Channel became part of my cable package.

I still remember when the KKK spoke from the steps of the City County Building. They used every foul word in the English language. I stood there thinking, "Do you kiss your mother with that mouth," while most of the people around me responded in kind. A few took down their number with an interest in joining. God only knows why.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:24 AM

Frustration, probably. ;-) Some people are really into anger in a big way.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:46 AM

I'm not bothered by the presence of that material on the web. Like Joe, I'm not likely to be taken in by propaganda.

Besides which, I would far rather they spout their scurrilous nonsense against a background of the music misappropriated by the Third Reich, than against a background of our music, corrupted to their purpose.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: GUEST,ruairiobroin
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

We all know that the dreadful atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis should never be extolled but to censor footage of the bastards would be to take the first leaf from their book.
It is also interesting to note what people deem to be atrocious because where I come from the Masters of those lovely Grenadier Guards (mnetioned in the start of this thread) were every bit as fragrant a flower as the Nazis and for over 7 centuries longer. The british butchered their way around the globe to steal other peoples riches and resources They didn't even have a spurious political ideology to justify themselves Just plain rapacious greed


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

"I've said it before and I'll say it again: Democracy. Just. Doesn't. Work!"
Kent Brockman on the Simpsons

Back in the real world: Freedom of Speech is hell. You can click a couple of times and see the Wehrmacht march into Paris. You can see Neil Armstrong land on the moon. You can upload your daughter's story about her dolls.

The internet allows you to touch the world

And Vice Versa.

I was raised anti-Communist. I've argued agin Communists my early adult life, there's little need of it now.

But do I love The Red Army Chorus! I'll never forget driving a fundamentalist Alabaman to work with me with my truck cassette player peeling out Polyushkee Polye. I was applying, rightly or wrongly, but anyhow effectively the McLuhan statement:"the medium is the massage"

what people get out of a piece of performance can go unexpectedly far, but the direction is anyone's guess, and anyone of an English persuasion who doubts this should listen to the original version of Yankee Doodle and reflect on what the Americans made of it and where they took it (eventually back to Britain).


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Royston
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:01 PM

I didn't see this thread first time round. I think the OP was surprised and shocked not by the fact that the Nazi shit was on the internet, but by the fact that the relentless logic of the youtube / google systems had inexorably linked British patriotic music with Nazi propaganda.

The linking algorithms don't make value judgements, they just reflect what users listen to or view. They reflect the uncomfortable truth that there is a constituency of right wing degenerate filth that listen to 'land of hope & glory' and Nazi / fascist propaganda, seeing the two as complimentary and equivalent.

That truth can be shocking to behold


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: mg
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

If it was music that was written for the Nazis, boycott it..if it is hate speech apply what laws you can. If you see people giving Nazi salutes, or what looks ilke them, tell them to stop, as I have to do because these dimwits at church now like doing it, and it is not an unbroken Catholic tradition that Nazis usurped.

We can't stop eating cabbage because they ate it, and we can't stop doing the polka because they danced it. The Germans have lovely music, and we should enjoy it, for our sake and theirs, as they went through a period, hopefully now gone, where they felt obliged to disown it because Hitler used it.

But we should never conflate the average German soldier with Naziism..he or she?? was caught up in one of those tidal waves that sweeps the world now and then...very many paid with their lives...and were horribly broken if they lived. Those pictures you see about the captured German soldiers, many going off to Siberia, are so sad...

So if it is German soldiers singing German songs, don't leap to conclusions unless there is blatant propaganda or racist stuff or whatever. There is a universal spirit in these songs sung by these soldiers, or sung by others with videos of common soldiers..that shines through. As they said in Vietnam, let God sort it out..well, that is not the entire quote but enough of it. mg


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: GUEST,Mrbenggo
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 10:19 AM

You can't take it away from Hitler and his lot they certainly were enthusiastic when giving their speeches to the party members.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 11:15 AM

The revival of this thread reminds me why I started it in the first place 11 months ago. Many of those who commented were pleased to tell me why I must have originated it; to give their opinion of the nature of the videos I was writing about; to make political points about the enormities committed by any government which could ever have employed such a concept as the Grenadier Guards! ~~ without any of them it appeared, having taken the trouble to go back to Youtube & follow my 3 or 4 or 5 clicks from the Old Grenadiers March to the US Cavalry to the Waffen SS March to Hitler & all of his cronies taking the salute as the Nazi units goose-stepped past to the unending stream of contemporary neo-Nazi propaganda.

No point rehearsing it all again; but to those who knew better than I did where I was coming from, I say again, just have a look & follow it thru, & then see if you are still so complacent that it's just music & all contemptible & anodyne & vanilla.

That's all···

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 11:29 AM

To a lot of us, your original point just wasn't news. I spend a lot of time on YouTube looking at music from the Middle East and the Caucasus, where the most innocuous item is often only one click away from massed choirs singing bombastic nationalist hymns to accompany videos of cities crumbling under shellfire with hundreds of comments in multilingual gibbering lunacy. (It helps that I know one of the regional languages reasonably well and can identify "fuck your mother" in a few others).

This could be the basis for a "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" game. For an arbitrary YouTube video, see how many "related" links it takes to get you to a Leni Riefenstahl clip.


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Subject: RE: Nazi music & propaganda on YouTube
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 08:44 AM

Michael; One of your earlier question, was how one could find similarity between "Old Grenadiers March to the US Cavalry to the Waffen SS March". If I was of Sioux or Nez Perce decent I could probably see a strong similarity between the 7th Cavalry and the SS. However I grew up in a house where my father listened to recordings of Sousa Marches. Today as an adult, although a dedicated pacifist, I am a great lover of Martial Music. There is nothing so moving as a march, be it French or German or English, then there's Sousa.


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