BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: John P
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 10:10 AM

Little Hawk, anyone who worries about anyone else's sexual choices has the capacity -- and the right, if you let them -- to worry about yours. Once they cross the line, it's hard to tell how far across they are willing to go. In case you're not catching the subtext, I'm talking about your support of the anti-gay sentiments of Akenaton and GfS. Whether you like it or not, they believe they have the right to dictate your sexual choices to you. And you have given them that right. In a very real sense, by supporting people who want to tell other people who to sleep with, you are complicit in dictating other people's sexual choices. Your great "hands off" philosophy backfires and becomes "hands on" when it lets the evil ones get away with their evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 10:38 AM

Akenaton still giving us the "facts?"

I am not gay but I reckon I should give Ake a good.. Nah, Joe wouldn't let me post the rest of that sentence.... (Hi Joe!)

Might clear Ake's mind a bit though, not to mention his sinuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 11:02 AM

Hahaha! Akenaton has brilliantly completed the diagram…


Red: Homosexual practice can seriously damage your health

-->

Blue: Unsafe sex can damage anyone's health - gay or straight. Monogamous marriage is healthiest for all.

-->

Red: Read the figures you prat!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 12:08 PM

The logic that I love goes, "Very few gays really want to get married and settle down. Therefore we shouldn't let them."

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 01:09 PM

Let me see if I understand this. Two human beings find love together, want to join their lives together legally, and then, being unable to produce offspring, wish to adopt a child whom they will raise in a loving, intelligent, communicative environment.

And someone thinks this is a disgusting, perverted, unnatural, filthy, despicable thing.

But by contrast, a lump of a man and a harridan of a woman get pregnant while drunk one night, marry up to save the disgrace, and raise a child in boozy poverty and emotional and physical abuse, producing a confused, neurotic and anti-social git of a young man. This is however deemed (I presume) as "normal life".

I think I have just seen a disgusting, perverted, unnatural, filthy, despicable thing, but not the one of the first example.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 03:56 PM

Johh, I don't know exactly what you're on about. I happen to like GfS and Akenaton as people, that's all, so I have a general sort of respect for them and see no reason to demonize them on this forum, although I may not agree with EVERY single thing either one of them might say. As for wrangles about gay rights, homosexuality, etc....I consider it a total non-issue, I am utterly disinterested in it, and I find it so completely boring listening to people go on and on about it expressing their outrage....whatever side of the issue they happen to be on...that I start feeling like I may fall asleep at the keyboard at any moment.

I simply don't give a damn about it either way, because it's not my business who other people want to have sex with nor is it anyone else's business, in my opinion. That was my point in my last post. I'm not interested in the subject. It bores me. I think that the present day media and politicians are using this particular issue to play "divide and conquer" games and get votes. I think it's a farce, a manipulative political football that is being tossed around by cynical politicians for their own gain, a pitiful waste of people's time, energy, and attention, and that you would all be much better off not worrying about it and focusing on something else instead....

I don't CARE about gays, I don't mind gays, they don't worry me in the least, and their lifestyle has no effect on me whatsoever, nor would I expect it to.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:02 PM

"As for wrangles about gay rights, homosexuality, etc....I consider it a total non-issue, I am utterly disinterested in it…."

Shortly after midnight on October 7th of 1998, a twenty-one year old Matthew Shepard, a student at the University of Wyoming, was taken to a deserted country road outside of Laramie, where he was tied to a fence, brutally beaten, tortured, and pistol-whipped. The two assailants left him to die, still tied to the fence.

Shepard was discovered 18 hours later by a cyclist, Aaron Kreifels, who initially mistook Shepard for a scarecrow. Shepard was in a coma.

Shepard had suffered fractures to the back of his head and in front of his right ear. He experienced severe brain-stem damage, which affected his body's ability to regulate heart rate, body temperature, and other vital functions. There were also about a dozen small lacerations around his head, face, and neck. His injuries were deemed too severe for doctors to operate. Shepard never regained consciousness and remained on full life support. While he lay in intensive care, candlelight vigils were held by the people of Laramie.

Shepard was pronounced dead at 12:53 a.m. on October 12, 1998, at Poudre Valley Hospital, in Fort Collins, Colorado.

Police arrested Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson shortly thereafter, finding the bloody gun and Shepard's shoes and wallet in their truck.

The reason they gave for their brutal assault on Matthew Shepard?

"He was gay."

The sort of anti-gay propaganda and blatant misinformation that certain people on this and other threads are wont to spread ("Gays choose to be gay," and "Gays cause disease.") gives people like McKinney and Henderson a convenient excuse for their bigotry and brutality.

"….a total non-issue…."

I don't think so!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:04 PM

""The figures make it clear, that a very small percentage of homosexuals want Marriage/monogamy(Scandanavian survey)
Those who do "marry", use it primarily for financial benefits/immigration/insurance etc....not to set up a family structure(the traditional definition of marriage).""

The lengths it will go to to in an attempt to support the above specious bollocks.

Careful selection of survey data from atypical sources will work equally well to either prove or disprove any argument.

A Scand(i)navian survey and an African survey would be diametrically opposed in just about every particular, and neither would bear any relation to the UK or USA situation.

If that's the best argument you can manage, STFU until you have something realistic.

The point at issue still hasn't penetrated that adamantine skull. The argument isn't about how many want to marry, it's about those who do having the right to do so without having to ask bigotted outsiders' permission.

You are perfectly safe, and totally unaffected, as long as you don't indulge.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:17 PM

""I am utterly disinterested in it, and I find it so completely boring listening to people go on and on about it expressing their outrage....whatever side of the issue they happen to be on...that I start feeling like I may fall asleep at the keyboard at any moment.""

Yet here you are again, airing your self perceived superiority!

For somebody who is "utterly disinterested in it", and finds it "so completely boring listening to people go on and on about it expressing their outrage....whatever side of the issue they happen to be on", you seem to be responsible for an inordinately large percentage of posts on the subject.

You'll excuse me if I don't find your protestations of disinterest convincing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM

I'm not saying it was a non-issue for him, Don.

I'm saying that gay rights issues are not a subject that gets me all worked up or that I feel any need to fight over with other people (as some of you here apparently do...both on the pro and con side of the issue). It just doesn't push my buttons. Period. It is not something that haunts my particular political anxiety closet.

I feel empathy for any human being who gets beaten up and tortured for who they are, but I have no particular ax to grind in regards to the specific matter of gay rights issues, I'm basically uninterested in those issues, it doesn't push my emotional buttons, and that's all there is to it.

I'll leave it to those of you who emotionally obsessed with this particular issue to accuse each other of every horrible, ugly thing you can dredge up out of your personal well of angst, outrage, and resentment, because it draws nothing but a big "yawn" from me. You're like a bunch of rabid dogs fighting in a pit. The fact that I don't wish to jump in that pit with you and participate does not in any way indicate my lack of regard for the unfortunate sufferings of someone like Matthew Shepard. It just indicates that I don't share your emotional addiction to obsessing over this particular issue, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:29 PM

Ya know, LH, some times you need to speak your truth whether it pushes your buttons or not. There is a core issue of common decency which transcends both the small-minded quibbles and the thinly-disguised sanctimonious apathy which justifies indifference to conditions on the planet.

Mind you, I am an equal opportunity offender, myself...

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:33 PM

Litle Hawk,

Remember what Dante said in The Inferno? About the level in Hell that's reserved for those who, in the face of a moral question, chose not to get involved, taking a position of "colorless indifference?"

God knows, I've quoted it to you often enough.

By the way, CLICKY

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:36 PM

Anyone who denies that there are serious health issues associated with homosexual practice is a fool.

Anyone who portays themselves as "a heterosexual, homosexual, activist"(a promoter of homosexual practice for others), is a dangerous, uncaring, fool.

I use the word "portrays" advisedly.


My stance on this issue(and I speak for no other),is based upon the fact that I find the figures for death and disease amongst homosexuals intolerable in a "caring" society. The "liberal" ideology which is in vogue at present, is bent upon showing homosexuality as perfectly normal and perfectly safe, so long as participants observe certain rules.....these rules are unsafe, as nobody appears to understand, or even be prepared to discuss the reasons for the huge difference in infection rates in homosexuals and heterosexuals, neither do they take into account that despite all the education and money thrown at the aids/homosexual link, a large majority of homosexuals continue to behave in a very dangerous manner( cite CDC figures for numbers of sexual partners, frequency of anal sex etc)

In the AIDS epidemic infection rates are falling in all demographics except homosexuals, because of the deafening silence about this issue.

This "liberal" ideology is to blame for the silence and lack of action, which has resulted in homosexuals counting worst affected by aids and other STD's in the US and UK. It can be seen in action in all these threads.

All posts attempting to undermine my argument by making asinine comments on your view of my sexuality, will be ignored....Grow up!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM

There is a specific reason that I sometimes post to these threads, Don.

That reason is that I think the politicians and demagogues in the current political era are cynically using various gender-based issues deliberately to sow division and controversy among the electorate. THAT is the one aspect of the situation that genuinely concerns me.

I couldn't care less who is "gay" and who isn't. That simply doesn't matter. What difference could it make? What I care about is how the mass media and the politicians are exploiting and sensationlizing the gay rights issue for their own gain. They are using it to manipulate people and to get attention and sell air time. They are posturing in various insincere ways, grandstanding, and stirring up outrage on both sides in order to empower themselves, and people are falling for it.

THAT is why I comment on the issue. I think you people who are endlessly fighting over gay rights here, both lots of you on both sides of the issue, have fallen right into the trap that the mass media and the politicians set for you. That is why I come onto these threads and say what I do.

Gay lifestyles are a complete non-issue to me. I....don't...care. However, the way the mass media and the politicians are pandering to spinning outrage OVER gay rights issues, is NOT a non-issue to me! That's what concerns me.

Get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:49 PM

Brutality in any shape or form is despicable.

The law is supposed to protect us from assault,if it does not, blame the law enforcers,there are psychotic brutes in all branches of society and citing cases of brutality should not affect discussion of serious issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:02 PM

Hey ake, why not answer my question: why do you oppose the marriage of people who actually DO want to stop acting irresponsibly and spreading disease? Seems you're fighting the very thing you should be helping.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:04 PM

""THAT is why I comment on the issue. I think you people who are endlessly fighting over gay rights here, both lots of you on both sides of the issue, have fallen right into the trap that the mass media and the politicians set for you. That is why I come onto these threads and say what I do.""

With respect, that pretence is wearing a bit thin.

We are all stupid and cannot make logical decisions as to our viewpoint on matters of politics and human rights, while you alone have the sagacity to see where and how we are being led ny the nose by a manipulative Media, and you alone are unaffected by their manipulations...............

Get real FFS!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:16 PM

""The law is supposed to protect us from assault,if it does not, blame the law enforcers,there are psychotic brutes in all branches of society and citing cases of brutality should not affect discussion of serious issues.""

That would be the same law that you would use to deny others the rights which you take for granted then?

You are right in one statement.

"There are psychotic brutes in all branches of society......"

And there are those who, by their attitudes and by their refusal to acknowledge the rights of sections of society, provide encouragement and a sense of entitlement to those brutes.

Who would you say is the worse of the two?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:20 PM

The Scandinavian survey shows that "being married" does not stop people from behaving irresponsibly, the figures for extramarital partners is much higher among homos than hetros.

This may have alot to do with most "marriages" being of convenience, rather than a desire for monogamy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:30 PM

Don... I will address you for the last time.
On the subject of brutality, I have watched over the last few months, your posts becoming more brutish and have no intention of engaging you in a screaming contest.

Your hysterical opinions are of no interest to me, and I take exception to people whom I admire being personally abused.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:30 PM

My opinion, good Ake, is that you have used a small part of a human being--his sexual orientation--to justify and rationalize excluding him from the most basic of courtesies and the most fundamental of civil rights. In doing so, you have subscribed to a barbaric act against your fellow man, which I feel is an offense against your own nature, as well. There is nothing about the issues you raise that justifies the prejudice and oppression you recommend, really. There are entirely out of proportion to each other.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:38 PM

I think we understand one another quite well Amos, and I dont really want to go through all the arguments again.
Does a desire to lower infection rates and cut the death toll really equate to prejudice and oppression?

You have a fine command of language Amos....so good that it sometimes takes on a "life of its own"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:40 PM

It is not a pretence, Don. I am 100% serious. You're playing out the comfy, familiar "liberal" role that makes you feel most holy and righteous (as an anti-anti-gay crusader), and you've been cleverly led into it by the politicans and the mass media...solely for THEIR gain, not for yours.

You are entirely in error in imagining that only people who think the way you do and talk the way you do and get outraged the way you do care about what happens to someone like Matthew Shepard.

The people who beat up and tortured Matthew were similarly led into it, and they felt similarly holy and righteous doing what they did...in service to the complete opposite line of insane, exaggerated rhetoric. They may have heard some horrible, inflammatory story about what some gay man supposedly did to a child or something along that line.

And that's what I object to: the hysterical, ridiculous, self-righteous, self-serving, self-justifying "victim" rhetoric on both sides of the issue and the ridiculous amount of media overkill that has been invested in raising 2 sets of holy warriors to do pointless battle with one another over something really trivial (gay sex) that's been happening anyway in human society for thousands of years!

It's a sad, sad case of the media and politicians driving the agenda, the tail wagging the dog, and people falling for it hook, line, and sinker...and hating each other over their exaggerated and false assumptions about what the other ones are thinking and believing.

Look at yourself, Don. You're positively panting to find some way to prove that I am a secret homophobe, when the subject of homosexuality in itself simply bores me and strikes me as a tempest in a teapot, something that just doesn't matter. You're searching diligently like an investigator for the Spanish Inquisition, hoping to find that one damning bit of pyschological evidence, that one stray word, that will prove that I am homophobic just because you want me to be in order to serve your need to prove I'm wrong. It's farcical. I'm about as worried over gay men as I am over gay hamsters, meaning not at all...and I actually find gay women rather appealing, provided they're not too ugly.

Stop looking for witches, Don. And stop trying to burn them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 09:12 PM

""Look at yourself, Don. You're positively panting to find some way to prove that I am a secret homophobe, when the subject of homosexuality in itself simply bores me and strikes me as a tempest in a teapot, something that just doesn't matter. You're searching diligently like an investigator for the Spanish Inquisition, hoping to find that one damning bit of pyschological evidence, that one stray word, that will prove that I am homophobic just because you want me to be in order to serve your need to prove I'm wrong.""

You really don't pay any attention to what posters actually say do you?

Never once have I hinted that you are or might be homophobic. Far from it.

My problem with you is that you are an arrogant supercilious ass who spends virtually every minute of time online bigging himself up and looking down on the rest of us from the heady heights of his own imagined superiority.

Far from being a homophobe, you have no opinions an anything other than how much more clever you are than the rest.

For me it is an important issue, and you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

It is emphatically not about me winning!

It is about not allowing a whole section of society to be deprived of their rights to live as they choose by the prejudice of those with an unhealthy and prurient interest in the sexual practises of that section.

It is about rebutting the nonsensical arguments of a self exposed hater of various minorities.

It is about trying to ensure that neither Ake's open disgust and bias, nor your lofty refusal to be involved in the human race, will be allowed to deprive others of their dignity and their right to the same freedoms.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:42 AM

One can search statistics from all over the world to find figures that might support what one wants to believe, and if one is sufficiently motivated, by careful selection and with a little fine-tuning, and if one expresses the figures with the proper twist, one can "prove" just about anything one wants to.

"There are lies, damned lies—and statistics!"
                                             —Mark Twain

In an effort to check Ake's contention that gays in Scandinavian countries don't want to get married, all I was able to find were articles about how marriage itself is declining, and an increasing number of Scandinavians—heterosexual as well as homosexual—are opting for simply living together "without benefit of clergy."

So—apparently not necessarily wanting to get married is not unique to homosexuals. Nor do homosexuals in the Scandinavian countries necessarily reflect the wishes of all homosexuals. Singling Scandinavian homosexual men out and implying that being marriage-shy applies only to them, and claiming that this applies to homosexuals all over the world is. . . .

Well, what would you call it?

In the United States, however, there is a strong movement on the part of homosexuals, both gay and lesbian, to legalize same sex marriage.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: J-boy
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:20 AM

I just want to ask. Do any of you posting on this divisive thread consider human homosexuality an abnormal or immoral practice? Be honest.Remember that not too long ago people were imprisoned or sent to mental hospitals for being gay.I hope none us here on the Mudcat wish to return to those dark ages but some of the comments I've read make me wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:41 AM

I see. We shouldn't let gays marry because they might not be faithful to their partners. Whereas if we don't let them marry, what? They will? Your lack of logic is wearing thin. Your self-appointed Saviour to teh Gayz schtick isn't really fooling anybody, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:03 AM

Amos: "That is a complete cracxkup. GfS should have it printed in a six-foot blowup to hang on her office wall..."

When I read that post, I just had to laugh my ass off.....but not for any reason, (except for one person), who would know why!!

Good call, Amos!!

Grinning!,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Mick Woods
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:10 AM

The analogy about hanging around with tall people not making one taller is a red herring argument. We are talking about ongoing metaphysical, cultural and general behavioural influences of ones peers. This WILL change some people's (especially young) behaviour and opinions - not their physical size.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 09:10 AM

Getting married is one thing, getting kids handed to them doesn't seem right. Take Elton John and his buddy. When that baby graduates, one of those old bitches is going to be coughing up Benefiber balls in the audience and the other is going to be bothering everyone with his geriatric farts!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:52 PM

What I love is reading posts above that say "we... should / shouldn't / allow / deny etc."

Who the hell are "we?"

To become "we" does one have to refrain from taking it up the arse?

Are "we" the law makers, upholders of law, or just feel the world should spin in the same direction as "our" weird minds?

I'd love to see some of the "we" up in front of a gay magistrate. Being judged... Hah!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Brian May
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM

Err, in the spirit of goodwill and all that . . .

Can everyone retire to a neutral corner while we slop out the blood . . .

Blimey!

And there was me thinking that homosexual activity was just a pain in the arse . . (sorry but I HAD to write it, God made me do it, leastways, I think it was Him).

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:39 PM

Actually I think gays SHOULD get married.

1. If they marry they won't run around acting all campy and trying to impress others.

2. If they marry they won't risk exposure to disease or infecting anyone outside their marriage.

3. If they marrythey will create a stable environment in which children who lack a stable home can be safely adopted without fear of their being exposed to male-female relationships.

4. If they marry they will no longer have a legal excuse to act like an oppressed minority deprived of their civil rights by bigotry.

ALl these things would improve the general social situation and should be grounds for passing a contitutional amendment that the civil rights of marriage may not be denied to anyone on the basis of sexiual orientation.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:27 PM

The analogy about hanging around with tall people not making one taller is a red herring argument. We are talking about ongoing metaphysical, cultural and general behavioural influences of ones peers.

Metaphysical? Are you sure that's what you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM

""Do any of you posting on this divisive thread consider human homosexuality an abnormal or immoral practice?""

Only a tiny but very vociferous minority friend, of which, I am more than happy to confirm, I am not a member.

But whatever I thought of that orientation would not alter my implacable opposition to any discrimination based upon it.

That is what is being deliberately pushed aside by that small minority. The issue here is a human being's right to all the freedoms which are available to his fellow humans.

Those who are opposed to Gay marriage are at no risk from it whatsoever, and those Gay men and women who wish to marry are reducing risk to the Gay community.

The argument that it diminishes hetero marriage is so puerile as to need no discussion.

Hence, opposition to Gay marriage clearly is about bias and prejudice in most cases.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: John P
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:51 PM

We are talking about ongoing metaphysical, cultural and general behavioural influences of ones peers.

Yes, people are influenced by the people they hang around with. And the problem is??? What, do you think being gay is contagious? Do you know anyone who is going to suddenly decide to be gay?

I hang around with musicians and get musical influences. I hang around with women and get feminine influences. I hang around with manly men and get the occasional home repair tip. I hang around with gay people and get . . . wait, they're just people. If they are musicians I get musical influences, if they know how to fix a car they give me advice, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: John P
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 03:03 PM

Getting married is one thing, getting kids handed to them doesn't seem right. Take Elton John and his buddy. When that baby graduates, one of those old bitches is going to be coughing up Benefiber balls in the audience and the other is going to be bothering everyone with his geriatric farts!

Wow, you actually know Elton John and his partner? Are they really both bitches? Or are you just using derogatory language because the objects of your derision are gay? In the spirit of taking your own medicine, does your calling people you don't know names mean that we can refer to you from now on as "that slimy bastard"?

The only REASONS you gave for not liking their adoption of a child is centered on their age. Are you equally against hetero folks having the right to adopt if they are past a certain age?

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 03:45 PM

There you go dragging reason into it, John P. Like that's going to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 04:07 PM

Anyone who cites the unusually high rate of HIV in homosexuals as the true reason they should not get married must also oppose heterosexual marriage in sub-Saharan Africa, where the rates of HIV for all people are similarly high.






(If not, the illogic is thoroughly exposed)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: John P
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 04:50 PM

(If not, the illogic is thoroughly exposed)

All of Akenaton's illogic has been exposed literally hundreds of times. It doesn't seem to slow him down a bit. Since most of us have seen him being an intelligent and articulate man, capable of deep and insightful thought, his crusade to keep homosexuals from being allowed to be normal citizens is very fishy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: John P
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:11 PM

You're playing out the comfy, familiar "liberal" role that makes you feel most holy and righteous (as an anti-anti-gay crusader), and you've been cleverly led into it by the politicans and the mass media...solely for THEIR gain, not for yours.

It's a sad, sad case of the media and politicians driving the agenda, the tail wagging the dog, and people falling for it hook, line, and sinker...

Little Hawk, if you try really, really hard you might be able to be a little bit more of jerk. But you'd have to try really hard . . . What you are doing here is saying that everyone but you is a sheep being led around by the nose, without bothering to actually think about any issues. In other words, we're all stupid. Do you really expect to get away with that sort of asinine conversational technique? Do you really think you are very good at looking inside other people's heads? (you're not, by the way). Do you really think it's appropriate or beneficial to respond to individuals as if they were all the same type of stupid?

Just for the record, I am outraged by the legally imposed prejudice against gay people because I have lots of gay friends who are being discriminated against. I am outraged that the Bible is being used to spread hate. I'm outraged that people who find homosexuality icky are being allowed to turn their ick factor into laws. I don't pay much attention to anyone telling me what I ought to think -- I don't really listen to or read whatever liberal media and politicians are supposedly controlling my mind. If you don't like my outrage, can you tell me if the American South would have desegregated without a lot of outraged people? Would apartheid still exist if we hadn't gotten outraged about that? It was our outrage, in part, that ended the Viet Nam war. Sometimes, for important issues, it is necessary.

Here's a question for you: If you were at a coffee shop and fell into conversation with someone who was expressing extreme bigotry against blacks, would you tell them they were out of line, or would you tell them that the liberal press was the only reason they had to put up with all the anti-racist rhetoric?

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:28 PM

""Actually I think gays SHOULD get married.""

You surprise me Amos.

It's not like you to take things a step too far, or am I missing some very subtle irony?

In my book it is just as bad telling them what they should do, as telling them what they shouldn't.

I would tell them that by Law they have the choice, and then butt the hell out, and let them decide.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:30 PM

Governor Signs Bills Eliminating Discriminatory Code, Legal Barriers for Same-Sex Couples

Sacramento Ð Yesterday, Governor Schwarzenegger signed into law two Equality California sponsored bills. The first bill, AB 2199, repeals a discriminatory section of the California Welfare Institutions code targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. The second bill, AB 2700, eliminates legal barriers for same-sex couples wishing to dissolve their domestic partnership and civil marriage simultaneously by creating a consolidated form and procedure.

ÒWe are grateful that our governor has decided to stand with us on the issue of repealing deeply offensive and blatantly false language from state law suggesting that gays and lesbians can and should be cured, as well as eliminating hurdles for same-sex couples seeking legal separation,Ó said Geoff Kors, executive director of Equality California. ÒAs the most populous state in the nation, California sends a palpable message with these new pieces of legislation with respect to LGBT equality. These two bills bring us closer to accomplishing our mission to achieve full equality for all LGBT Californians.Ó

AB 2199 calls for the repeal of a section of the California Welfare and Institutions code that instructs the State Department of Mental Health to conduct research into the Òcauses and cures of homosexuality,Ó with the implication that lesbian, gay, and bisexual Californians are sexual deviants, potential sex offenders and a threat to children. The code, which was originally authored in the 1950s, implies that lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals can and should be cured, in direct contradiction with an enormous body of research that demonstrates otherwise. The bill was sponsored by Equality California and was introduced by Assemblymember Bonnie Lowenthal (D-Long Beach).

ÒThe witch hunt is now officially over,Ó said Assemblymember Bonnie Lowenthal.

The governor also signed the Separation Equity Act, or AB 2700, which will amend the state's family code, allowing for couples who first registered as domestic partners and who legally married thereafter to dissolve both contracts through a single, uniform procedure. The current system forces couples to go through a separate process for each, which can take an extra one to two years for each case to be resolved and unnecessarily burdens the judicial system. The bill also clarifies that same-sex couples who married outside of California and who have all the rights and responsibilities of marriage, may dissolve those out-of-state marriages in California. The bill was co-sponsored by Equality California and the Conference of California Bar Associations and introduced Assemblymember Fiona Ma (D-San Francisco).

ÒThe elimination of legal separation barriers for same-sex couples brings us one step closer to marriage equality,Ó said Assemblywoman Fiona Ma. ÒWith AB 2700 signed into law we are recognizing that all marriage should be treated alike, even when it comes to dissolving them.Ó

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Lox
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 07:44 PM

"and the figures from reputable independent sites like CDC are irrefutable. "

Yup - and the figures are that, with the exception of HIV, the highest suffering demographic of STDs is young heterosexual females.



But more importantly, they spelt "Britney" wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 08:30 PM

Well well I see the pro's have fallen back to default mode....."It's just no' fair Jimmy".

No attempt to address the problems raised.

No one said life was going to be fair suckers!
What is fair.....do you mean everyone should be treated equally regardless of behaviour. Is it fair that under eighteens are not allowed to buy cigarettes, yet are encouraged to die for the system?
The examples of unfairness are countless.

As Hawk says, homosexual marriage has become a political issue....In fact The "gay marriage" threads were started by Amos, in a bid to boost Democrat votes in one of the past elections.
I object to homosexuality being promoted by the media and as a "liberal" tool, while it is so obviously dangerous to those who practice it.

"liberal" dogma triumphs over common sense......we must be mad.

"Subject: BS: Californianas Opposing 'Prop 8' Ban
From: Amos - PM
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:25 PM

IF there is any chance you will be voting in California this election, please review some these videos (they are short) as to why the proposed rightwing Ban on Gay Marriage should be opposed by every voter at the polls"

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 09:21 PM

What's common sense about prohibiting gay marriage? What good would it serve? You always drag out numbers BUT NEVER TIE THEM TO ACTUAL POLICY RESULTS.

HOW would prohibiting gay marriage reduce AIDS mortality or morbidity? Answers on a postcard.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 12:35 AM

"No attempt to address the problems raised."

Exactly!!!!

So, what is your position on the legality of sub-Sharan Africans being allowed to marry?

I am waiting for the answer Mister Logical and Compassionate.

Do I really need to start counting your posts again?

Yes. You are clearly smart enough to remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 12:48 AM

I know a young woman who was raised by two gay men. She's married, to a very nice young man and seems stable enough. Her one quirk is that she won't give her cat catnip because it's a drug.

I have a friend with three ex wives. If he wants to take on a fourth nobody is going to stop him, though somebody should. If he can get married why shouldn't two gays.

My chief problem with gay marriage is that I go to a church with a beautiful building and a very inclusive congregation. If Pennsylvania ever legalizes gay marriage every drag queen in town who wants a big church wedding will join that congregation, and I will choke every Sunday trying not to laugh. Not to mention the very unChristian thoughts I will have about men who look better than I do in a nice little print dress!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 01:47 AM

Cor, AKe, you do make some wild assertions. Why do you think homosexual marriage should e more dangerous to those who practice it than homosexual playing the field?

Arrant nonsense, I think.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why Gays Should Not Marry, Simplified
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 05:01 AM

Mousethief and TIA    I have answered these questions several times on other threads.
The issues are complicated and time consuming to explain again....I dont have the time or inclination to repeat myself forever, just because you are not paying attention.

If you are really interested, not just looking for a fight, go back through the threads and re-read them.....they contain the answers to all your questions regarding the situation in Africa and why I am against bringing homosexual practice into mainstream society while the life expectancy and health figures are so bad.

Homosexual "marriage",is in my opinion simply a tool to normalise a practice which is dangerous and unhealthy.
It is a tool of a political faction, not of a sexual minority.