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Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'

Michael 15 Dec 09 - 04:53 AM
Will Fly 15 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Dec 09 - 05:25 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 09 - 05:40 AM
Fred McCormick 15 Dec 09 - 05:45 AM
TheSnail 15 Dec 09 - 05:46 AM
Marje 15 Dec 09 - 05:51 AM
johnadams 15 Dec 09 - 05:57 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 09 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,non-active member 15 Dec 09 - 06:21 AM
Folkiedave 15 Dec 09 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Dec 09 - 07:09 AM
Folkiedave 15 Dec 09 - 07:10 AM
paula t 15 Dec 09 - 08:03 AM
Folkiedave 15 Dec 09 - 08:35 AM
Marje 15 Dec 09 - 10:53 AM
Will Fly 15 Dec 09 - 12:02 PM
TheSnail 15 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 15 Dec 09 - 12:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM
Cats 15 Dec 09 - 03:26 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Dec 09 - 03:35 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Dec 09 - 03:38 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Dec 09 - 03:49 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Dec 09 - 03:58 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM
Snuffy 15 Dec 09 - 07:52 PM
Artful Codger 16 Dec 09 - 12:33 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Dec 09 - 12:38 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Dec 09 - 01:10 AM
Gervase 16 Dec 09 - 02:53 AM
Folkiedave 16 Dec 09 - 06:42 AM
Wyrd Sister 16 Dec 09 - 11:30 AM
GUEST 16 Dec 09 - 12:46 PM
Folkiedave 16 Dec 09 - 12:58 PM
Anglo 16 Dec 09 - 03:01 PM
TheSnail 16 Dec 09 - 03:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Dec 09 - 03:29 PM
Folkiedave 16 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM
Artful Codger 16 Dec 09 - 05:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Cornish Max 20 Dec 09 - 12:45 PM
Folkiedave 20 Dec 09 - 02:11 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Dec 09 - 04:46 AM
Folkiedave 21 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM
EnglishFolkfan 21 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM
Folkiedave 21 Dec 09 - 11:50 AM
EnglishFolkfan 21 Dec 09 - 01:00 PM
Bonzo3legs 21 Dec 09 - 01:34 PM
GUEST 21 Dec 09 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,leeneia 22 Dec 09 - 11:42 AM
Folkiedave 22 Dec 09 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Nailbourne source 23 Dec 09 - 05:28 AM
EnglishFolkfan 23 Dec 09 - 08:20 AM
manitas_at_work 24 Dec 09 - 03:58 AM
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Subject: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Michael
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:53 AM

On BBC 'Today' programme and BBC News site this morning.

The Christmas carol While Shepherds Watched their Flocks was originally sung to the tune of folk song On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at, an academic claims.

Durham University hymnologist Prof Jeremy Dibble said it was one of the most popular versions of the 300-year-old carol.

The original version is still sung at traditional carol sessions in pubs in parts of Yorkshire, said Prof Dibble.

He is carrying out research into carols for a new hymnology dictionary.

Prof Dibble said his research had shown that one of the most popular versions of the carol was to the tune Cranbrook - better known as On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at.

Well bugger me who'd 'a thowt it? There's some clever folk in these 'ere unimiversities.

Mike


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM

There are 3 (at least) well-used tunes to "While Shepherds Watched" - the one we learned at school, "Cranbrook" and another whose name escapes me but which I know we'll be singing along with the other two - at our Christmas carol night in the Bull in Ditchling on 22nd.

Coincidentally, another eminent 'Catter told me only the other day that "Cranbrook" was written hundreds of years ago by a cobbler or carpenter or some such in the village of Cranbrook in Kent. It's a great tune.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:25 AM

Cranbrook as a setting for While Shepherds Watched pre-dates the song Ilkley Moor Baht'at.

There are many versions of While Shepherds watched in the Sheffield carolling tradition alone - 6 or 7 in the book produced by Ian Russell.

Less celebrated is the number of different versions of Hark Hark What News there are. Obviously it isn't as popular a carol as While Shepherds out in the wider world, so perhaps that's why it's less noted. But it does give some insight into the fact that carols were probably sung to many different tunes at one time, and not just their "standardised" versions. Maybe this is because the words came from broiadsheets, and a tune was selected to fit? Or maybe there was a less fixed notion of how the carols were "supposed" to sound, so there was more freedom for a village musician to introduce a tune they thought fitted the words better.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:40 AM

The tie-up between On Ilkley Moor & While Shepherds Watched has already been made earlier this month: in an exchange between me & The Borchester Echo on the 'RE: BS Christmas? A Rant' thread ? 7 Dec 09, 04.21AM & 07.17AM.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:45 AM

There are about 35 tunes to which While Shepherds has been known to be sung in the South pennine region. They include, and I kid you not, Ghost Riders in the Sky, and Amazing Grace.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:46 AM

Professor Dibble should have used Google. http://www.msgr.ca/msgr-2/on_ilkley_moor_bar_tat.htm

What's the tune you're using at The Bull, Will? The tune that seems to get used most in Sussex folk circles is Cranbrook.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Marje
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:51 AM

As I understand it, While Shepherds Watch was one of the first carols that was accepted by the Church, because its words are pretty close to the words in whichever Gospel it is. Earlier carols were tradtitional songs that had no very close connection with church worship, and some of their lyrics were regarded as a bit wide of the mark. Then the Victorians started composing carols specifically for church, and many of the most popular ones date from this time.

So that's why While Shepherds Watched has so many tunes - it was, for a while, one of only a few church carols. And as Ruth Archer says above, there was much more flexibility at that time as to which tune went with whcih song.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:57 AM

I was at a party in Keighley las Saturday and the guys and gals from the Bacca Pipes folk club were in session. When the caroling started, they included Noel, Noel to the tune of Young Banker. Worked a treat!

I'm assuming this was a recent pairing of tune and words. Any other recent pairings around?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 06:12 AM

As I never tire of saying, any song written in ballad or common metre (as is While Shepherds) can be sung to the tune of any other ballad ? just look what has happened, as has been mentioned on several threads recently, whereby the tune of Fause Foudrage, because Andy Irvine got confused one night or something, has now become the standard tune for Willie o Winsbury. Even some of Bronson's cross-refs admit or imply this. Ballad tune associations are often quite arbitrary. So just try singing Shepherds or 1st Nowell to that [Foudrage/Winsbury] one - or to Little Musgrave - or BitterWithy - or···or···or ? it will go fine to any of them. There's an infinity of 'new pairings' 4U.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: GUEST,non-active member
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 06:21 AM

On 7th December I wrote a little post about Thomas Clark 1775 - 1859 a Canterbury boot and shoe maker who wrote the hymn tune "Cranbrook" later used as the tune for "On Ilkley Moor" **

Although like many hymn writers at this time he was never famous in classical musical circles, but his music was well known and sung by many.

In the second half of the nineteenth century, as a result of the Oxford movement and radical changes in the way services were conducted, a whole new repertoire of congregational music supplanted that written by Thomas Clark and his contemporaries.


** Unfortunately, unlike some other non music related 'guest' posts in BS, it was deleted within minutes as was a link to a Christy Moore song on you tube I also posted about the same time.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 06:46 AM

In carolling sessions stretching back to 1973, probably averaging 8 per year, plus 7 carol festivals every two years from 1996 I don't remember it being sung to Cranbrook except as a joke. I have been to about 7 different venues. Of course I can't visit them all and certainly not at the same time (!!) but I can honestly say it is extremely rarely sung to that now, if at all. Frankly we have a lot better tunes.

There is a possibility of it being sung at the Fountain Ingbirchworth, (now the George at Denby) where they sing a lot of "Shepherds". Long time since I was there.

Likewise Sheffield City Morris also sing it to Long Distance Information and Amazing Grace and Ghost Riders etc etc. This is not to be taken seriously

Mike GM is quite correct you can sing it to most things. And we do. That is not to say it is sung "in the tradition" like that.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:09 AM

Isn't it reassuring to know that the Academics are so up to date with their research!
Can't wait to see what he discovers next!
Maybe an invite to the Royal Oak Dungworth, might get him salivating!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:10 AM

Ralphie there is space for you.

I suspect it might be full for him. Let him eat cake.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: paula t
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 08:03 AM

I introduced the "Sweet Bells" version of the carol to our primary school as an individual item for a district carol concert about 6 years ago. Since then we have only ever sung that version. It is loved by everyone.
This year we are having a Christmas "sing-along" with the parents, and many parents have asked that it be included.
The year 5 and 6 see it as a "rite of passage" nowadays to sing the "echo".


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 08:35 AM

Good for them!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Marje
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 10:53 AM

Yes, it's true that there are lots of songs in the same metre as each other, and that they can be interchanged with different melodies; perhaps what's surprising is how seldom this happens nowadays, especially in church singing.

One pairing that works well is "Angels from the Realms of Glory" to the tune of Cym Rhondda (Guide me O Thou Great Jehovah). You can also sing Clementine to this tune, which wouldn't go down well in church but is a nice party trick if there's singing going on.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 12:02 PM

The Snail:
What's the tune you're using at The Bull, Will? The tune that seems to get used most in Sussex folk circles is Cranbrook.

We'll be doing the popular "school" version, then we'll do it again using Cranbrook, and then a third time with a tune which I'm afraid I don't the name of - and I'm not that familiar with the tune either. So the shepherds will be watching at least 3 times during the evening, at intervals.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM

Possibly the "Sweet Bells" version which I heard last night at Glynde. I tend to forget it's While Shepherds because it's so dominated by the chorus.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 12:55 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-413100/Council-enforce-fee-band-playing-non-religious-Jingle-Bells.html

What justification can there be for a claim that carols are religious?

Members of a historic town band are furious after being told they couldn't play Jingle Bells in their Christmas shows unless they paid for a licence - because the song has no religious content.
Callington Town Band in Cornwall, a registered charity, is having to fork out £21 each for seven temporary licences to cover their Christmas programme - because the local licensing authority says so.

Caradon District Council's licensing department told the band it would fall foul of the Licensing Act 2003, which came in to force this April, if it played anything other than religion based carols during its seven Christmas concerts.

The council said a temporary entertainment notice was needed every time entertainment was provided in venues without public licences.
That means festive favourites like Jingle Bells, White Christmas and Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer need a licence whereas Christmas carols which are considered religious music do not.

Now the MP for the area is set to raise the issue with the Government to try and get a dispensation for the band to play such popular Christmas classics as Jingle Bells.

"We were aghast when we received the letter telling us that we had to have a license unless we played on private property," said band Chairman, Cliff McKane.
"It was amazing."

Callington Town Band, which was reformed 10 years ago after first being formed in 1853, is a registered charity relying on donations.
The band a raises hundreds of pounds for charity each year - this year they are fundraising for the Cornwall Blind Association.
"This will cost the town a small fortune," Mr McKane said.
"Money that we have to spend on these licenses just takes away what we have to give to charity.

"It really is quite stupid," said the band's secretary Dee Blake.
"We are really upset about this.
"People love to hear carols when we play in places like supermarkets, but we can't really perform an entire set of all-carols in a place like that.

"When we performed the songs last year we would see lots of people humming and singing as they wnt by us.
"The kids love Jingle Bells - they know it from an early age."
Callington Town Band are protesting against the new law and said that the people of Callington were unhappy about the situation and had signed a petition which they have handed over to local MP Colin Breed.

MP for South East Cornwall, Liberal Democrat, Colin Breed said that the ruling was an unintentional consequence of the licensing operations: "It's just total nonsense," he said.
"We have to get to the question of whether the band are to play Jingle Bells," he said.
"Hopefully common sense will prevail.

"I'm trying to get a more localised version of the law hopefully we will resolve it before anyone plays Jingle Bells."
Mr McKane said that the band is having to rethink whether they can afford to play their usual seven public Christmas dates on the town's streets as he said that the fees plus administration costs could top £150.

"I don't think that we could consider only doing religious carols - there is not enough music available and it wouldn't last long enough."

Mr McKane said that he was confused with the new licensing laws which he says have meant the band need a license if they perform in a church yard, but not a few yards away inside the church building.
"Fines can be as much as £6,000 I've been told," he said.
"A lot of district councils are turning a blind eye."

Caradon District Council's licensing officer Michelle Brooking said that the ruling applied throughout the country: "The ruling was brought in by the Licensing Act in 2003."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-413100/Council-enforce-fee-band-playing-non-religious-Jingle-Bells.html#ixzz0ZmW667Ru


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM

"While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks by Night" is a composed carol, words by Nahum Tate, first appeared in "Tate and Brady's Supplement," 1700. (I can't check this out, but the reference appears in several books.

Dr. Ralph Dunstan said "Probably no Christmas Carol of Hymn ever written has so many settings as "While Shepherds...".
www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com

The setting by Handel is my favorite, but I'm sure everybody has their own..

Folk versions, but not a folk song??


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Cats
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 03:26 PM

In Padstow we sing it to Cranbrook, Lyngham and, my favourite, Zadoc. I had the tremendous honour to sing with the Padstow Carollers on their visit to the Millennium Festival of Village Carols in Sheffield. Fantastic.

The article about Callington Town Band [my nearest town] happened a few years ago, 2006 I think, and they are still merrily playing it.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 03:35 PM

I was a bit surprised that the BBC suddenly and belatedly discovered that While Shepherds Watched can be sung to the tune of Ilkley Moor.. We sang it at our Herga carol singing session on Sunday evening. Of course you can also sing "O little town of Bethelehem" to the tune of "Adieu sweet lovely Nancy" and the Wild Rover to the tune of Away in a Manger....

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 03:38 PM

Folk versions, but not a folk song??

I think even a very orthodox reading of the 1954 Definition would make very much a folk song.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 03:49 PM

The verse part of Wild Rover IS practically Away in a Manger! Come to think of it Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy isn't far off 'O little town of Bethlehem' as well!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM

Exactly, Steve!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 03:58 PM

Now, try it the other way round, singing Away in a Manger to the tune of the Wild Rover, and Oh Little Town of Bethelehem to the tune of Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM

Or even, Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy to the tune of Oh Little Town...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

S. O'P., whose 1954 definition?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:52 PM

The Wild Rover is OK, but I prefer to sing Away in a Manger to the tune of the Mountains of Mourne.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 12:33 AM

There's some commentary on "While Shepherds Watched" (and its multiplicity of tunes--over 300?) in the notes and recorded intro for this clip on YouTube of "Sweet Chiming Bells". The written commentary:

This is one of the many versions of While Shepherds Watched - believed to number well in excess of 300 different tunes. Before about 1700 the only songs which were allowed to be sung in churches were those which used directly from the bible - anything else was considered to be sacrilege. Then after Nahum Tate wrote these words in 1692 the King gave a special decree that these words were worthy of being sung in church too. Every village and every church had their church band and singers and this song was often sung to other tunes used during the rest of the year like Cranbrook, which later became what we know as On Ilkley Moor Bah' tat. Sweet Chiming Christmas Bells has a chorus - one theaory is that the song comes from a funeral hymn wishing the soul on its way to heaven.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 12:38 AM

Now wait on a minute all u-guise ? I know it was, up to a point - me who was one of those who started all this ??? but if you can sing anything to anything --- my head's beginning to spin···   Aaaarrrrgggghhhhhhh!!!!

Think I'll go and lie down··· Anyone care to come over and sing me Rock-A-Bye Baby to tune of Land Of Hope And Glory????

Aaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhh again in ♠♠♠♠♠♠!!!!!! HELP!!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 01:10 AM

... on 2nd thts ··· make that Brahms'Lullaby 2 choon of SinginInTheRain ···


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Gervase
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 02:53 AM

Hmm - one song to the tune of another. Sounds like a good idea as part of an antidote to panel games.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 06:42 AM

I happen to come across what I assume is the original press release from Durham University.

What I think it shows is that perhaps Prof. Dibble knew a bit more than he let on in the radio broadcast. Certainly I would have been less critical if I had seen this.

I think it shows that there is a great danger when mixing with the media that your agenda might not necessarily be theirs.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 11:30 AM

This is the year the BBC discovered local carols (again). There's a plethora of programmes due, with recording at Dungworth and Castleton for Radio 2&3. Amongst presenters mentioned are Kate Rusby, Jon Boden and Bella Hardy. I even heard 'Awake, Arise' from Dungworth on Radio 3's teatime programme a couple of days ago.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 12:46 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8412999.stm


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 12:58 PM

From the BBC link above.

The Christmas carol While Shepherds Watched their Flocks was originally sung to the tune of folk song On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at, an academic claims.

While Shepherds....1700

Cranbrook (Ilkla Moor...) 1804.

Not for over 100 years it wasn't. But I blame the BBC not the Prof.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Anglo
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 03:01 PM

We sang Shepherds to the Ilkley Moor tour when we first launched our Xmas program, Nowell Sing We Clear, in New England in 1975 (currently in the middle of our 35th season). We had been singing it informally before that - I don't remember where the reference came from to document its historicity. Amazing the BBC, and university scholarship, has found out about it now.

Over the years we've sung the carol to a number of different tunes; we also use Sweet Chiming Bells but we adapted it to a different set of verses. This year we're using Zadoc for Shepherds, though it's "New Zadoc" as we incorporate some harmony lines from a very similar Sacred Harp hymn.

Nowell Sing We Clear at www.goldenhindmusic.com.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 03:14 PM

It looks as if Folkiedave is right. Just the BBC trying to put an interesting spin on something they thought was too dull to tell straight - http://www.dur.ac.uk/news/newsitem/?itemno=9179


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 03:29 PM

Two popular settings-
Handel- 1728
Davies Gilbert- 1822

The 1700 Nahum Tate may be erroneous.
Also cited as 1703 Supplement to "A New Version of the Songs of David," Brady and Tate, 1696.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM

IT's near enough!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 05:10 PM

Most sources say it was the 1700 supplement, hence the 1700 date commonly accepted. In any case, Clark wrote Cranbrook as a setting for "While Shepherds Watched", a century after the lyrics were written (or adapted, if you prefer), and that setting preceded "On Ilkley Moor" by about 50 years or more. No news to anyone but the reporters, who may have understood the situation, but did a hash of expressing it clearly.

As for it being the first Church of England hymn or carol to cross from the secular to the spiritual, does this mean that they never sang the Latinate carols, many of which co-opted tunes from folk songs with originally secular texts? Considering how common this practice has been throughout history, I find such a claim rather dubious. For it to be true, the Church would have had to create their hymnal almost from scratch.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM

Music composed by Handel, 1728. A sample of the music of Handel, accompanied with lyrics by Nahun Tate and Nicholas Brody, here:

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0060259


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: GUEST,Cornish Max
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 12:45 PM

In our Washaway West Gallery choir we have been giving three different tune versions for WSW over several years [different each year]; as others suggest, there are very many tunes, some known to have been used and others equally "do-able".

The West Gallery Music Association has a very useful web page on this early psalmody - and there are now many quires in various locations who will know a lot about this stuff, as will many collectors and researchers such as the esteemed Rollo Woods in Dorset.

Sheffield etc is on radio 2 next Monday evening at 10.00 and Padstow (plus, perhaps, a snippet of Washaway) on Tuesday. Who knows, there may be a version of WSW!

Off dreckly for a visitation to nearby Padstow for an 'ark.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:11 PM

They were certainly recorded!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 04:46 AM

The rant that "The Shambles" quotes from the daily Mail is 2 months old.
I wonder at the reason behind the band making these details public. Are they hoping the council will change their mind?
Do they realise that by mentioning that they rely on songs like "White Christmas" they might get the PRS breathing down their necks next!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM

There are two simple solutions.

The first is to licence the area(s) where they play - costs the council nothing.

The second is for the council to ignore breaches of the act. Happens elsewhere all the time.

Press the local MP to keep hassling the minister and DCMS about this stupid law.

As for PRS I would imagine the band know all about that. It is a band after all.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM

BBC Magazine news item today:
"The unique carol singing traditions of the UK
Whether it's in the pub, a church or out on the street, people in the UK are keeping local - and often unique - carol-singing traditions alive. But what are they?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8418243.stm

to publicise the BBC Radio 2 Keeping Tradition Alive At Christmas set of four programmes starting tonight at 10pm: BBC Radio 2 goes on journey to celebrate local voices and different carolling traditions around England and Wales:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ph4zn


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 11:50 AM

I hope you don't mind EFF I have set up a stand alone thread for the BBC carol programmes here..


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 01:00 PM

OK & a good idea Fd, have added the following link on the new thread too.

The momentum for the BBC exploring our Folk Roots is gathering pace:

Sunday, 27 December 2009 13:00 GMT on BBC Radio 3

The Early Music Show - Christmas Carols

'Catherine Bott looks back on the origin of the Christmas carol and roots out some of the original versions of some of today's popular tunes. Carols appeared in Europe thousands of years ago, but they weren't originally the Christmas fare we know today. They were pagan songs for the Winter Solstice and people would sing them as they danced around stone circles. The word 'carol' suggests a dance-song expressing praise or joy. Early Christians took over the pagan solstice celebrations and so the link was established between carols and Christmas. More often than not Christmas carols were popular tunes to be performed in gathering places or in the streets, only slowly did they start to find there way into the church.

Some of the melodies for today's popular carols are very old, and through the course of this programme Catherine draws on some of the original versions of the carols, for songs such as Ding Dong Merrily On High and Good King Wenceslas. She explores some of the ways in which early composers have brought carols into the body of the church service.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00h3ycc


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 01:34 PM

And there was I thinking that they were named after that girl Carol that I fancied when I was 14!!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 02:42 PM

I haven`t read every post but in Delph Saddleworth Yorkshire While Shepherds is sung to Jackson and Burnet


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 11:42 AM

Thanks, everyone, for an interesting thread.

I had never heard a version of 'While Shepherds Watched...' that included a chorus about sweet bells.

I investigated a YouTube and found this:

a minor skirmish in the War between the Men and the Women

I recommend it for anyone else who has never heard the song.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 12:10 PM

I think last night's radio programme included it too.....


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: GUEST,Nailbourne source
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:28 AM

I listened to Today the other day and was surprised to hear during the 8 am News Bulletin that it has been claimed that the Christmas carol 'While Shepherds Watched their Flocks by Night' was originally sung to the tune of the folk song 'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at'.
I understand, from 'The New Oxford Book of Carols' (Ed. H Keyte & A Parrott) that the tune is known as 'Cranbrook' and was written by a shoemaker from Canterbury called Thomas Clark. It was first published in Clark's 'A Set of Psalm & Hymn Tunes' in 1805. Although Clark wrote it for a different hymn it became associated with 'While Shepherds Watched their Flocks by Night' which was possibly written by Nahum Tate in around 1700. According to Wallace Harvey in his book 'Thomas Clark of Canterbury' "the words of 'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at' were composed by the conductor of the Heptonstall Glee Choir" in around 1877 to Thomas Clark's tune. The song increased the tune's popularity and the words and tune combined have entered the folk tradition.
I have not found any suggestion that the tune was known prior to Thomas Clark's publication of it. Therefore it seems that this is a hymn tune which has become a folk song rather than the other way round as claimed, unless new evidence has come to light. I also suspect the BBC reporter of turning the story round to make it more 'interesting'. I emailed the Beeb about all this but not surprisingly had no reply. I think it is just as interesting that the 'pop' songs of the day should become folk songs which I suspect is a process that is going on today. Maybe in two hundred years time Beatles tunes may be thought of in the same way as Cranbrook is now?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:20 AM

I blame the church organist! Way back when the film version of West Side Story came out I was friends with a very young part time London church organist/choirmaster. He used to play Bernstein's WSS tunes in the style of 'churchified' music plus other 'pop' stuff for the intro & exit music to services. Was fantastic sat in the organ loft listening to the compliments on the 'lovely music' from a congregational members who had no idea what it's root were. The Lad in question was a superb young musician.

29 mins into Late Junction BBCR3 last night was Chris Woods and the EAC's lovely arrangement of 'While Shepherds Watched' followed by church bells .... wonderful!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Popular carols 'have folks roots'
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:58 AM

Leeneia,

Could we have the correct link please?


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