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The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences

George Papavgeris 22 Dec 09 - 06:50 PM
Howard Jones 22 Dec 09 - 07:13 PM
Bernard 22 Dec 09 - 07:16 PM
Sandra in Sydney 22 Dec 09 - 07:44 PM
Leadfingers 22 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM
Jack Campin 22 Dec 09 - 08:25 PM
George Papavgeris 23 Dec 09 - 03:32 AM
Hamish 23 Dec 09 - 03:57 AM
Will Fly 23 Dec 09 - 04:02 AM
evansakes 23 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM
The Villan 23 Dec 09 - 04:40 AM
evansakes 23 Dec 09 - 04:58 AM
Hamish 23 Dec 09 - 05:09 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 23 Dec 09 - 05:12 AM
GUEST 23 Dec 09 - 05:52 AM
Sandra in Sydney 23 Dec 09 - 05:58 AM
Hamish 23 Dec 09 - 06:00 AM
treewind 23 Dec 09 - 06:04 AM
The Villan 23 Dec 09 - 09:06 AM
Howard Jones 23 Dec 09 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,erbert 24 Dec 09 - 01:38 AM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Dec 09 - 02:20 AM
Tangledwood 24 Dec 09 - 02:37 AM
The Villan 24 Dec 09 - 02:46 AM
Girl Friday 24 Dec 09 - 12:16 PM
Girl Friday 17 Sep 12 - 09:08 AM
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Subject: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:50 PM

I just posted this on two other fora (for artists and clubs respectively), and I think that the wider mix of Mudcat's membership can provide a useful perspective on the subject:

Most artists and most clubs nowadays maintain websites of varying sophistication showing giglists and events schedules respectively, or promotional material & photos or galleries of pictures from past events, perhaps linking to blogs and club newsletters etc. Also, most clubs and artists maintain e-mailing lists of varying accuracy, gleaned in a variety of ways, and use them to promote their gigs and events with varying frequency.

And yet, several times a year I still come up against the "we don't do downloads, send us paper copies/photos etc". Or "tell me your free dates, I cannot look at your gig list" (myself, I always check a club's published bookings before approaching them).

Having a foot in both camps, i.e. both as an artist and in the organisation of Herga Folk Club, and maintaining the websites for both sets of needs, and also having looked at several hundreds of club and artist websites by now, I have a slight suspicion that club websites lag in sophistication behind artists' ones as a rule. Also that artists generally, even those that have been on the circuit for 40+ years, tend to be more sophisticated in their use of technology (the internet in this case) and generally willing to embrace new avenues in their efforts to reach their audience.

Do you feel the same (or otherwise), and why should that be so? Is there a case for clubs "upping their game" at all in this area?

In an age where most people have at least one email address (I have three, for different purposes), access to a computer and the internet, should we not think harder about more imaginative use of these tools?

And to those who would argue that the average computer literacy of our ageing audiences is much lower than that of the general public, I would say:
"But if we claim to want to reach younger potential audiences and if we purport to be co-stewards of the genre to pass it on the those that follow, then surely we need to embrace the world that these target audiences live in, anyway".

What are your views on this subject? And what innovative uses of the technology do you favour yourselves or wish that others would use?


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:13 PM

I don't think it's surprising that artists make better use of websites than some clubs. For an artist, a website is an essential marketing tool for their business, and it is worth them investing both time and money in making it as good as possible. Whilst a club is also a business, the reality is that most are run on a part-time basis, by enthusiasts, with limited resources which they wish to use as far as possible for booking guests. Unless they have some website design skills, or can get a knowledgeable club member to do it on the cheap, they are going to make do with whatever can be lashed up with some simple website software package.

Neither is it entirely surprising, even in this day and age, that some people are still reluctant to engage with computers and the internet. This is a mistake, because it offers unparalleled opportunities to communicate. It's ideal for musicians, because it offers the opportunity to post examples of the music as well as a list of gigs.


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:16 PM

Well, as a club organiser and performer myself, I'd say that it's a little arrogant of performers to expect clubs to go to the expense of downloading and printing of copies of flyers to promote gigs.

I don't have a problem with visiting websites, MyTube, SpaceBook and the like...! In fact, I'd say it's preferable to wading through dozens of CDs, many of which are clearly studio performances which cannot be regarded as adequate proof of a performer's ability to charm an audience.

My predecessor learned the hard way not to book solely on the basis of a CD... samples of actual performances on YouTube tell you so much more about audience skills and presence.

I fully agree that we should embrace technology, but not everyone is savvy enough to do so. Handy if you have a friend to do it for you, but can prove expensive if you haven't.

Many ISPs provide basic website designing tools to use the webspace they provide, but it can be tricky navigating your way around unless you know what to expect... which kind of defeats the object!

I'm not so sure that a sophisticated website is necessarily the best route, as some of them take an age to load even on a fast broadband connection. For that reason, I stick to fairly basic HTML on my sites, as the information they carry is far more important.

I think Theo Paphetis (Dragon's Den) said of a shop window display that it needs to give the potential customer enough information in five seconds to draw them in, or they will walk by. I do know that I'm inclined to skip by a website that loads slowly or navigation is somewhat obscure to find the information I'm looking for.

A typical example of how it is done is the way Kerfuffle used Facebook (amongst other things) to promote their current tour.

Let's not forget the MudCat in all this!


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:44 PM

I run The Loaded Dog Folk Club and am not a performer. As I have a wonderful iMac which is apparently old & decrepit (even tho it's only 6 years old! sob.) I can have trouble listening to music on performers sites. And I can't listen to MP3s - they need downloading & putting on CD, which I can't do (yet?) So I do like CDs.

A few years back the state Folk Federation did a mini-survey of 2 clubs (mine & another) & found that almost no-one came from posters or club leaflets. Most arrived after receiving info on club or performers site/list.

I have octogenarian friends who have a computer & are on email lists & use this info - as well info as the paper newsletters they have received since they joined the folk scene in the mid 50s - to find out what's on. Our septuagenarians are also on line and there are only 2 or 3 regulars who don't have internet access.

The Dog team have put a lot of effort into the Club description on the website (below) to attract the "right" kind of artists for our audience (welcome back, George in 2011!) but I still receive applications from artists who have never read our site.

My least favourite artist was the one who addressed me by another first name & included the immortal sentence "I seem to remember that you are connected with the Dog" and even tho they were a very professional act who had appeared at many festivals, did not get a gig - or a reply. I did wonder where they found my email address.

more later - it's almost lunch time & I'm nowhere near ready to leave.

sandra


The Loaded Dog Folk Club is Sydney's finest acoustic folk venue - showcasing the best acoustic folk music has to offer, from guitar to autoharp, solo voice to community choir. (No amplification!, no mikes!)

The club is housed in the upstairs hall of the Annandale Neighbourhood Centre - the former Annandale Town Hall - a splendid example of a late Victorian sandstone public building with superb acoustics due to the 20-foot ceilings and wooden floor.

The club meets on the fourth Saturday of each month, from February to November, with occasional changes due to competing festivals. We are unable to put on extra concerts.

An evening at the Loaded Dog begins at 8pm and usually involves a main act, a support act, plus a number of floor spots of a couple of songs each. The Loaded Dog audience has a preference for traditional folk songs/tunes and original material with strong roots in the tradition. Audiences like to sing along when appropriate; they are quick to pick up choruses and love to add harmonies.


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM

I wish that the internet had been as viable when I was running Uxbridge ! I MAY even have learned how to set up a Website!
I DO have E mail , which has the advantage of being (Effectively) free to use , and agree with George that Snail Mail is cumbersome AND more expensive !
   Bernard - As I read George's post he is NOT advocating download and print , but decrying the insistence of SOME clubs on sheafs of paper and Hard Copies of music .
   IF I was still actively chasing Solo Gigs , I would certainly set up some kind of Web Site with a few songs / tunes as a demo of how bad I really am ! LOL .


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 08:25 PM

And yet, several times a year I still come up against the "we don't do downloads, send us paper copies/photos etc". Or "tell me your free dates, I cannot look at your gig list" (myself, I always check a club's published bookings before approaching them).

Surely the second of those is perfectly reasonable? It's quite a complicated process to work out when somebody's going to be available in one part of the country when all you've got to go on is a list of booked gigs half of which are in places you've never heard of. Can this performer make it to a gig in Borchester on Wednesday if they've done one in Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh on Monday and have another one booked for Tannochbrae on Friday? - only the performer can know. Better if they say up-front that they'll be based in the South Riding of Yorkshire in the last two weeks of April and have the following dates free: [...]


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 03:32 AM

Bernard, Leadfingers is right about my intent with the above sentence regarding print v download. Also, such things can be taken care of in the context of the financial arrangements ("a tenner less from your fixed fee/guarantee if the club does the printing"). The fact remains that downloading is cheaper than paper-mailing (the printing being equal in both cases), so this is away to take cost out of the operation, easing pressure on entrance fees (mind you, I'll agree it's peanuts compared to other factors). And on top of that downloading allows the club to update their own website more easily.

Jack, I grant you the example I used may not be well thought-out. I just wanted to make the point that information is there to be used by all parties. At Herga we start with a draft of our next 6 months' diary based on public holidays, our members' wishes for booking certain people and the best of the solicitations from artists/agents to date. Then we check that against artists' websites to make sure our wishes are achievable, and then we contact the artists to offer the gigs. Seems to make good sense. Of course, the artist may turn round and offer alternative days that might suit them better because they are planning a local tour.

Howard Jones, you said that "for an artist, a website is an essential marketing tool for their business....Whilst a club is also a business, the reality is that most are run on a part-time basis...". But the majority of the artists are part-timers too, even if their other job is in some cases music-related like teaching. And they only have a pool of one for the skills they need to acquire, whereas a club has a pool of its regulars/organising committee etc. But this is probably a moot point, as the world moves on, and we all need to keep up with it. An artist has the need to be "attractive" and accessible to get bookings; but a club also has the same requirements towards its audience.

I don't see this in any way as clubs versus artists. Both clubs and artists are part of the same production team that needs to attract customers for their product. The question is "Are we using the available technologies sufficiently/appropriately/to our best advantage, and what more can we do?"


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Hamish
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 03:57 AM

When looking for places to go as a punter I'm pretty much exclusively an internet researcher. So a club's site has to come up in Google when I search on "folk, Somerset, club" or similar. It's got to be fast to load and have the information easily accessible.

Too many sites use pictures which Google can't decode to put into its search algorithm, or are slow to load.

For artist's sites, similar criteria apply: if someone's looking for you, will they be able to find you by Googling? When they get there, is it a suitable shop window and does it have clear navigation with all the information easily obtainable?

Some bookers still want hard copy, some are happy to listen to clips. Allow for all preferences.

Or so it seems to me.

--
Hamish


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:02 AM

Sandra (in Sydney) - does your iMac not support any version of iTunes? Even at 6 years old, there should be a version to suit available from Apple. Or RealPlayer, or Quicktime? All three can play mp3 files.

Just a thought. :-)


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: evansakes
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM

George said

"I always check a club's published bookings before approaching them"

I suspect a lot of artists might be surprised to find many clubs/venues do the same in reverse. I can vouch for the fact that several gigs have been offered as a result of finding that the logistics work for the artist concerned. Get the gig on all websites as soon as it's agreed. You might get another as a result of your prompt actions.


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:40 AM

At Faldingworth Live, I never ask any performer to send me hard copy promo stuff or Cd's.

1. We do our own posters, so that we can reflect the best qualities of an artist in a way that will attract our audience. I think posters that just show an artist and a box to write our venue in is just not good enough and IMHO a pure waste of money on the artist/agents side.
I appreciate that some organisers do not have the resources to do their own posters for whatever reason. To get the posters done, I capture the info from the artists website, and ask the artist to send me a good quality jpeg to be used for the poster as well as sending to the press.

2. Our website IMHO needs to be informative and load pretty quickly. Putting flash stuff on the website IMHO is not necessary for a venue. Whereever possible I link to the artists website as well. I also keep a Myspace account Faldingworth Liveand a more informal facebook account http://www.facebook.com/les.worrall?ref=profile.
Gigs are put on local and wider area Diary websites such as Folktalk.
Plus the artists booked put the info on their websites and e-mailsd etc.
I don't bother to e-mail much (too much spamming going on already), but may send e-mails to individuals just to remind them.

3 Word of mouth has a big impact as well, plus Radio broadcasts etc.

4 As far as listening to artists music, I always google for videos or myspace accounts and that tells me enough about the artists. If I am not sure about siomebody, but think I might want to book them, I try and go to see them live first.
If an artist calls me to book a gig, as they are talking I already have youtube videos or myspace up and I listen whilst I talk with the artist. Soon brings you up to date.

I am IT literate and it is a godsend as using the internet etc is so quick and easy if you know what you are doing.

I think Artist's need more of a flash git approach :-) to their websites in order to promote/sell themselves. I don't think that is the case for organisers (just simple websites are enough that are informative).

Cheers
Les Worrall


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: evansakes
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:58 AM

These are some of the excuses I've heard from artists who (despite repeated reminders) have neglected to include our gig details on their websites etc.

" I didn't want to put any of the gigs on my website until the tour was 100% booked....and I'm still waiting for final confirmation from a couple of places " (our date was less than three weeks later)

" I never bother sticking any of next year's dates on my website till January 1st as no-one thinks about putting dates in their diaries till then " (our date was halfway through January)

Both of these artists are big names and VERY well respected. They both work regularly up and down the country. I won't mention names as I love them both dearly

However I've just checked their websites and according to the info supplied neither have ANY dates for 2010.

None whatsoever.

Which I know for a fact isn't the case....


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Hamish
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:09 AM

Well, TwickFolk, MySpace wouldn't let me put my gig in Southampton for March 2011 in when it was booked a couple of months ago. I know because I tried!!


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:12 AM

Everything I have done so far, on the folk and poetry scenes, is as an amateur, but by posting a "daily ditty" on 4 sites, 100 plus read or hear some WalkaboutsVerse each day - including my attempts at folk songs. (Plus I attend clubs and festivals within reach of public transport.)


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:52 AM

"And yet, several times a year I still come up against the "we don't do downloads, send us paper copies/photos etc". Or "tell me your free dates, I cannot look at your gig list" (myself, I always check a club's published bookings before approaching them)."

1. Bit pathetic of anyone in this day and age to insist on receiving paper copies/photos etc. Not very green, quite apart from anything else!

2. I think it's entirely reasonable to ask someone what dates they are free - I wouldn't personally want to trawl through someone's gig list, irrespective of whether a musician had gone through mine or not. Anyway, just cos you're not playing a gig one night, doesn't mean you're available!

"Having a foot in both camps, i.e. both as an artist and in the organisation of Herga Folk Club, and maintaining the websites for both sets of needs, and also having looked at several hundreds of club and artist websites by now, I have a slight suspicion that club websites lag in sophistication behind artists' ones as a rule. "

Well yes, the websites for most folk clubs are absolutely terrible. You could make a better website in about 5 minutes using one of the many blogs (blogspot for one).

But the appallingly bad 'village noticeboard' type folk club websites are rather endearing, I find. At least they have character.


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:58 AM

Will Fly - thanks for the suggestions, I'm checking with my techo friend

sandra


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Hamish
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:00 AM

Of course some organisers might just be finding less painful ways of delaying saying "No". Less painful to themselves that is. I just wish they'd be straight and not waste my time, energy and resources by avoiding coming out with it. I mean I know the supply/demand ratio of decent acts means that there has got to be many more "No thanks" than "Yes pleases", especially for little old me. It's okay: I can take it. If I couldn't take a "No" I wouldn't ask in the first place!!


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: treewind
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:04 AM

Surely the "poster with blank space" idea dates back to the days when the only way to get posters done was to go to a commercial printer and get several hundred printed, to last you for a couple of years' gigs.

Now colour laser printers cost less than the income from one gig, you can economically have a print run of 1 upwards and customise your posters. For years I've been offering clubs printed flyers with the club details, dates, contact no. etc. printed on them, and more recently offered posters similarly customised. They do look better!

It would help enormously if club organisers could be specific (and perhaps a bit more imaginative) about what they want in the way of publicity materials.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:06 AM

Already done our poster for you and Ember, Anahata

We only do quality posters :-)

I just had a load of posters of an artist I am putting on next year. They just came out of the blue, without even asking me what I needed.

I would have said, "A good write up/profile and a good quality jpeg." The rest we do.

The posters won;t get used, but I will return them.


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 10:43 AM

George, my point was that for a professional (full- or part-time) marketing is an essential investment which will pay for itself. An effective and well-designed website is a must. If you do not have the necessary IT skills then I assume the costs of website development could be offset against tax.

A club on the other hand, whilst it should also be promoting itself is subject to rather different financial constraints. If the organisers do not have the skills themselves or cannot find them within the club, then to pay for a decent website will cost money which could they would prefer to spend on a guest, with no assurance that it will generate an audience. This is why, I suspect, so many club websites are poorly designed.


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:38 AM

What's the point of a clubs website posting a gig list
and contact email address,
if they never reply to any emailed requests for information regarding events
potential new audience/club members are eager to buy tickets to attend ?


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:20 AM

Possibly a tangent (or two).

(1) What would be very useful would be a mail server account similar to Groupwise which can allow subscribers to view each others diaries, and send email requests for diary spots. I use this with another organisation I do collaborative work with so that thay can check my diary, and over me training workshop contracts if I am available.

As an after thought which occurred as I was typing ... would clubs/performers be prepared to pay a small admin fees, maybe £2-£5 a year to cover the admin and promotion? If there is enough interest I will look further into this to find out what the actual costs would be and the take up needed top cover it.

(2)How effective are posters in drawing an audience to a gig? My thoughts according to the days I was running a club back in the 80s.

- Any posters had to be put up at the start of the evening and taken down at the end.
- The majority of people attending were regulars anyway, and if a 'name' guest was booked, the in-house leaflets and the folk press ads drew in the audience.
- where posters would be most effective would be outside the club - other venues, in the community, but these sites are few and far between.

Maybe other people have experienced otherwise - then what was the 'success factor'?


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Tangledwood
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:37 AM

A club on the other hand, whilst it should also be promoting itself is subject to rather different financial constraints. If the organisers do not have the skills themselves or cannot find them within the club, then to pay for a decent website will cost money which could they would prefer to spend on a guest, with no assurance that it will generate an audience. This is why, I suspect, so many club websites are poorly designed. "

No arguement with that in regard to website design, but that doesn't excuse failing to keep the information up to date. It takes little IT knowledge and not much software to edit an already existing page.
Too many times I've looked for folk club news from places I'm planning to travel through only to find the "next event" happened two years ago, or there's no mention of normal operating days and times.

If a club is run by a committee perhaps it is time to create a new office bearer, website manager, if the secretary can't handle the task.

Performers' sites on the other hand are usually full of current and future dates. Fine if you want to chase a performer around the country but hard work if you have to go through the sites of all of your favourites to get an idea of a venue's program.

And to those who would argue that the average computer literacy of our ageing audiences is much lower than that of the general public, I would say:
"But if we claim to want to reach younger potential audiences and if we purport to be co-stewards of the genre to pass it on the those that follow, then surely we need to embrace the world that these target audiences live in, anyway".


The community choir I participate in uses email and blogs as the primary means of communicating. Only a handful of members are under 55 but probably better than 75% of members are quite comfortable with running it this way.


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:46 AM

Guest erbert

I think that's daft if the organiser doesn't reply to you.

I always reply to people wanting to reserve tickets. I would be mad not to.

SPB

We put our own quality posters up in selected places around the area. They do work as part of a total promotion package.

By far the biggest part of our audience is the regulars and they reserve their tickets ahead normally.

However, the rest of the audience is attracted in (or not) by Radio, Newspapers, Websites, E-mails, Handout Diaries at the event, word of mouth, etc etc.

Together, they all serve their purpose.

Each event that we put on gets the same promotional treatment as above.

As regards your suggestion of a sort of Groupwise scenario. That wouldn't work for me, so wouldn't be interested.

Cheers
Les


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Girl Friday
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:16 PM

Our Clubs have websites and Myspaces (I don't want facebook ot twitter, and don't think them neccessary.) We also list on Lemonrock, Remotegoat, Wherecanwego.com, plus several independent lists. Orpington Friday Folk appears on the Gigs Page of B.B.C.Radio Kent's Folk pages. We manage to fill the club only if there is an absolute top performer appearing. This was the case when we only used our local folk magazines. I'd like to think that the Internet helps, who knows? The best response is after I have sent out a gig list by email.


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Subject: RE: The Internet & clubs/artists/audiences
From: Girl Friday
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 09:08 AM

Just reread this as I am editing my list of tracers. My info needs updating. I have stopped using Myspace, occasionally I use Twitter, but mostly now, info. is on our website, and several Facebook pages. There are a lot of Kent Folkies who are now on Facebook. It is a very useful tool... in the right hands.https://sites.google.com/site/orpingtonfridayfolk/


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