Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Origins: Jolly Old Hawk - Goss-Hawk (Original)

DigiTrad:
JOLLY OLD HAWK


Mysha 25 Dec 09 - 08:24 AM
Susan of DT 25 Dec 09 - 10:53 AM
Mysha 25 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM
Jim Dixon 30 Dec 09 - 11:40 PM
Mysha 24 Mar 11 - 09:19 AM
JeffB 24 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM
JeffB 24 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM
Mysha 29 Sep 12 - 05:28 PM
Reinhard 29 Sep 12 - 05:54 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Sep 12 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Karen 06 Feb 22 - 01:38 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Feb 22 - 04:35 PM
GUEST 09 Feb 22 - 07:56 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Feb 22 - 03:22 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 22 - 11:37 PM
Richard Mellish 19 Feb 22 - 04:35 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:





Subject: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Mysha
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 08:24 AM

Hi,

Merry Christmas to all, and to all you hold dear.

As I was listening to Frost and Fire by The Watersons, this Christmas morning, I wondered about Jolly Old Hawk again. Even if they don't sing it that way, this would appear to be an a cumulative song, much like The Twelve Days of Christmas. But if so, how would it be sung? Are The Watersons following the only version found, or is there somewhere a version that does write / sing this cumulative?

Bye
                                                                   Mysha


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Susan of DT
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 10:53 AM

Here it is in the DT:
Jolly Old Hawk
JOLLY OLD HAWK

Jolly old hawk and his wings were grey. Now let us sing.
Who's going to win the girl but me
Jolly old hawk and his wings were grey

Sent to my love on the twelfth-most day
Twelve old bears and they was a-roaring

Eleven old mares and they was a-brawling
Ten old cocks crawled out in the morning

Nine old boars and they was a-quarreling
Jolly old hawk and his wings were grey

Sent to my love on the twelfth most day
Eight old bulls and they was a-blarring

Seven old calves and they ran before 'em
Six old cows and they was a-brawling

Five for fifth and a fairy
Jolly old hawk and his wings were grey

Sent to my love on the twelfth most day
A four-footed pig and a three-thistle cock

And two little birds and a jolly old hawk
Jolly old hawk and his wings were grey

Now let us sing
Who's going to win the girl but me

Recorded by Watersons on Frost and Fire
@ritual @seasonal @counting
filename[ JOLLHAWK
SOF


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Mysha
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

Hi,

Susan: Thanks for putting the link it.

Ok, I hope I can safely assume that in a cumulative version, we'd go from the first-most day to the twelve-most. Does that make sense in English?

But as can be seen from the link in the message above: Every four days, a chorus comes along of:
Jolly old hawk and his wings were grey
Sent to my love on the twelfth most day

If this was a cumulative song, I see three options:
* Every time a fourth day is reached a chorus is added, which means it'll always have the same place in the sequence, but the number of lines before the first chorus varies with the day.
* The choruses always stay the same distance from the day being sung. This means the number of lines before the chorus remains the same, but the place of the chrus in the sequence changes with the day.
* The Watersons inserted the extra choruses as, singing it non-cumulative, they'd have only one repetition of the the title line otherwise.

Additionally, the first days have half lines. How would this have been handled when an odd days was sung for the first time?

Would there be sources saying more on this, or maybe closely related song that do? And as always, are there sources that give a specific tune for this?

Bye,
                                                                Mysha


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: THE JOLLY GOSS-HAWK (from S.Baring-Gould)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 11:40 PM

From Songs of the West by S. Baring-Gould et al. (London: Methuen and Co., 1905?), page 146:

No. 71
THE JOLLY GOSS-HAWK

1. I sat on a bank in trifle and play
With my jolly goss-hawk, and her wings were grey.
She flew to my breast and she there built her nest.
I am sure, pretty bird, you with me will stay.

2. She builded within and she builded without,
My jolly goss-hawk, and her wings were grey.
She fluttered her wings and she jingled her rings,
So merry was she and so fond of play.

3. I got me a bell to tie to her foot,
My jolly goss-hawk, and her wings were grey.
She mounted in flight and she flew out of sight.
My bell and my rings she carried away.

4. I ran up the street with nimblest feet,
My jolly goss-hawk, and her wings were grey.
I whooped and halloed, but never she shewed,
And I lost my pretty goss-hawk that day.

5. In a meadow so green, the hedges between,
My jolly goss-hawk, and her wings were grey,
Upon a man's hand she perch'd did stand,
In sport, and trifle, and full array.

6. Who's got her may keep her as best he can,
My jolly goss-hawk, and her wings were grey.
To every man she is frolic and free.
I'll cast her off if she come my way.

[Endnote:]

71. THE JOLLY GOSS-HAWK. Melody taken down from H. Westaway to "The Nawden Song," which begins—

I went to my lady the first of may,
A jolly Goss-hawk and his wings were grey,
Come let us see who'll win my fair ladye—you or me.

To the 2nd of May is "a two twitty bird," then "a dushy cock," a "four-legged pig," "five steers," "six boars," "seven cows calving," "eight bulls roaring," "nine cocks crowing," "ten carpenters yawing," "eleven shepherds sawing," "twelve old women scolding." Mr C. Sharp has taken it down in Somersetshire. A Scottish version in Chambers' "Popular Rhymes of Scotland," 1842; as "The Yule Days," a Northumbrian version; "The XII. days of Christmas," with air not like ours, in "Northumbrian Minstrelsy," Newcastle, 1882, p. 129.

A Breton version, "Gousper ou ar Ranad" in "Chansons Populaires de la Basse Bretagne," by Luzel, 1890, p. 94. The West of England song has got mixed up with the "Goss Hawk," another song. See "The Fond Mother's Garland," B. M. (11,621, c 5). A companion song to this is "The Bonny Bird," given further on in this collection, No. 106. The song, in Devonshire, goes by the name of "The Nawden Song."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Mysha
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:19 AM

Hi,

Chansons Populaires de la Basse Bretagne:

Gwerziou

Soniou

- Page 94.

(Even pages Breton, odd pages French translation: annotations and variations at the end.)

Quite a complex song, where not just single lines are added, but for some days complete verses.

Bye,
                                                                Mysha


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: JeffB
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM

As Mysha said a couple of years ago, we don't know if JOH was a cumulative song. Although in their sleeve notes the Watersons mention it with 12 Days of Xmas they call it a forfeit song, i.e., I suppose, involving a game of some sort. I always thought a game had to be part of it from the last line - "Who's going to win the girl but me?" Blind Man's Buff perhaps?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

The Waterson version appears to derive from the Sharp Mss collected from William Chorley at Bridgwater, Somerset, in 1907. It is indeed accumulative.

The copy given in Reeves, Idiom of the People states

'In this cumulative song, singers started either at the 'first day' and added one line at each repetition, or at the 'twelfth day' and omitted a line at each repetition and then built up again from two to twelve.'

Reeves gives another version from a music book which had been taken down from an old man aged 85 in 1923.

Have you considered it might have been a parody on 'The Twelve days of Christmas'?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: JeffB
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

So,indeed cumulative song. Must have taken some stamina (or scrumpy) to have sung from 12 down to 2 and then back up again. Didn't occur to me it could be a parody on 12 Days of Xmas though I would be inclined to think not. I must say I much prefer JOH's words to 12 Days, especially the four-footed pig and three-thistle cock, whatever that was. Any ideas? Five for a fifth and a fairy is quite nice too, if rather gnomic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM

Three thrustlecocks?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Mysha
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:28 PM

Wow, some interesting stuff was added to this thread while I wasn't looking.

Hi,

Yes, I agree that the fifth verse - the one first long verse BTW - seems to send people astray in both songs. I don't hear "Five gold-rings" all that often and, though obvious, "fifth and a-faring" is probably a lost cause as well. In that version of JOH, it would appear a stray anyway, as it's in numbers format, while the others verses are in counting format.

Which one would be the older song? Interesting question, especially since My True Love Gave to Me so clearly derives from a song counting seven days, while on the other hand Jolly Goshawk in versions where it speaks of the days of May would seem second half 18th century at the earliest, as before that there would not have been a meaningful period of twelve days of May: From New Mayday to Old Mayday. (The latter being the day for Weddings, it would be the proper day to decide the announced competition: "Now let us see - who'll win this fair lady, you or me.") Do we have a date for My True Love etc.?

And back to the topic:
Regarding the versions talking about "twelfthmost day" etc.: Is such a day before or after the firstmost day?


When I was at Cecil Sharp House I didn't know I had something to research there, unfortunately. But Reeves being interested in the language, does Idiom of the People include the melodies as well?


Well, that sort of caught up with things, I guess.
Bye,
                                                                Mysha


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:54 PM

Which one would be the older song?

The Traditional Ballad Index gives 1889 (Reeves-Circle) as the earliest known voersion of Jolly Old Hawk and c. 1780 (Mirth without Mischief) as the earliest known version of The Twelve Days of Christmas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 10:39 AM

Reeves's Idiom doesn't contain tunes, but the Wm Chorley version is given with tune in Sharp Karpeles Vol2 p411. However Reeves does give another version from Sharp's manuscripts which I don't think is published elsewhere. This is from Music Book 4934, contributed by Miss Priscilla Wyatt Edgell who had it from an old man of 85 in 1923.

I would guess the Watersons got the Chorley version from my set of EFDSS Journals which at that time were held by their Hull folk club.

It is very difficult to date ceremonial songs of this sort and I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to which of the two songs was the earliest. It is very likely that they both derive from an earlier song, possibly the French versions mentioned earlier.

I'm not a sight reader but the tune given in Sharp/Karpeles appears to be the one used by the Watersons.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 01:38 PM

This thread of conversations is so old that my question may never be answered.

I have wanted to illustrate this song ever since I heard it sung over 20 years ago at a local celebration known as Welcome Yule. I have recently had the opportunity to start creating drawings and I want to send the book dummy to publishers. That said, I wonder if this is a copyrighted song? If so, is there a version that is similar to the Waterson's that has not been copyrighted?

Many thanks to anyone who can help me with this problem!

Karen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 04:35 PM

PD I'd say. There are more versions. It is Roud 1048. Go to EFDSS website VWML and into their catalogue of songs. Scroll down to Roud numbers and enter 1048. That will give you all the versions, at least 3.
I wouldn't worry about copyright. The source is well out of copyright and the song is easily demonstrated PD traditional, but go back to one of the sources just to be on the safe side.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jolly Old Hawk (Original Lyrics)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 07:56 PM

Thank you for your suggestions! I went to the VWML site but couldn't read the lyrics because they were handwritten.

So even though the Watersons recorded the song, because it is old, it's not considered copyrighted? My head is spinning a bit, sorry. I know that the Jolly Goss Hawk lyrics are different, but but they don't include the animal gifts and that's what I really want to draw.

Many thanks for your help.

Sincerely,
Karen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Old Hawk - Goss-Hawk (Original)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 03:22 PM

Okay Karen
Go back to VWML site and go to Roud 1048 as suggested. You will get 35 hits. Scroll along sideways to item 20 and you get the Cecil Sharp printed version from the FSS Journal as collected by Cecil Sharp from William Chomley of Bridgwater Somerset in 1907 which is where Norma got her version from. Well into public domain I'd say at 114 years since printing and must be a lot older by inference.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Old Hawk - Goss-Hawk (Original)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 22 - 11:37 PM

Thank you soooooooooooooooo much!!! I greatly appreciate your help!

I am curious, is this site, mudcat, an American or English site? I am just curious.

Be well,
Karen

PS If you would like to see my art, check it out on my instagram kagaudette. My website isn't live yet.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Old Hawk - Goss-Hawk (Original)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Feb 22 - 04:35 AM

1. In answer to Karen's question, this site is hosted in America but populated from all over the English-speaking world and some other countries besides.

2. I hadn't come across this thread before. Although I think I have heard Norma Waterson's singing of the song I don't remember it. Reading the words above I was immediately struck by the resemblance to Bob Roberts's Grey Hawk in (for example) "I whooped and halloed" and "Who's got her may keep her as best he can", which in turn is closely related to the more often sung My Bonny Boy (both Roud 293, as I now see on checking). Could Bob's, with general structure very similar to MBB but with the lost love portrayed as a "hawk", perhaps be a hybrid of JOH and MBB?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 5 July 8:04 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.