Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 10:27 AM

I hope John Reilly's Topic album, The Bonny Green Tree, makes it on there one day…


The Bonny Green Tree comes up on ebay fairly regularly, one copy sold last week for €24 but I got one last month for a tenner. More than worth it and including the booklet and everything.

Ofcourse I can't offer to put it up for a quick download after all this can I? ;-) (I'll be happy to help out though, if I can)

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 10:43 AM

Hi Peter, Cheers for that. I actually have a CDr of the album that a fellow Mudcatter burned for me along with a photocopy of the sleeve, but @i'd much rather have the vinyl, so I'll keep an eye out for it on eBay (though I have to say I didn't think to try to find out whether John Reilly had any children I could seek out and send a small Postal Order to*). I reckon a legal download reissue of the album would be good news for all those people who haven't heard a copy though... I wonder if Topic do requests?

* Possible thread drift, but one of the contributors to this thread (I won't name him for fear of embarassing him) kindly burned me a copy of his excellent but sadly out-of-print album of a few years back. He didn't want anything for it, but suggested I make a small donation to charity - a fiver to Amnesty seemed a fair price!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 10:57 AM

Spinachy: "the intended Folk demographic for such product is too anally retentive to break the law, and those who do break the law wouldn't have bought it anyway"

I have been told by certain younger folk artists that their CD sales have taken a hammering as a result of downloading. You have to remember that not every folk fan is middle aged or older - younger fans who are more conversant with the "download culture" don't necessarily see the difference between downoading a major label release and downloading a CD effectively produced by a cottage industry, and if they can get something for free, they'll take it and spend the money on something else instead (probably some music that isn't so easy to find for free). So I see a definite correlation between making these albums available on the net and the reduction in sales for a certain type of folk artist. But the "wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument certainly justifies a multitude of sins, doesn't it?

Spleen: If I'm mistaken, then I apologise. I clicked on a download to see if the link worked and something started to download, at which point I aborted it. But the issue of why these albums were uploaded in the first place, and the morality of it, and the fact that the onus is still on the artist or label to find out about it and ask for it to be taken down after the horse has bolted, as it were, seems to be the bigger issue here.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 11:52 AM

" . . . Folk Producers - are too busy assessing the market place & working up their profit-projections to be too bothered about the pure love of the thing."

Who, pray tell, are these "Folk Producers" of which you speak? Names, please!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Anne Lister
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:03 PM

I'm still left wondering why anyone who disagrees with illegal file sharing/uploading/downloading is anally retentive, a capitalist lackey, restricting access to music for the deserving poor, paying a fair price for the plundering of traditional music and all of the other epithets.
I've used the Anonyma album as an example, although yes, now it has been taken down, simply because I came across it by sheer chance and it's my music. Not my copyright, but my songs, my performances and my first commercial recording. There are many other recordings affected by THTM and many, many other artists, some of whom may still not know that their music is on a blog. Yes, THTM did take my album down when asked, but not pleasantly (as I've said before) and it then turned up on another blog and we had to repeat the process.
I have still heard no good reason why the bloggers (who, I have no doubt, are enthusiastic about the music) can't do a very small amount of homework and seek out the musicians they admire to find out the copyright position for an album they want the world to hear.
And I still fail to understand why musicians and songwriters should be expected to give away their recorded product (which does not come cost free, and is generally intended to at least recoup those costs, if not make a profit) and smile happily when someone else decides to give it away for them.
But that's probably because I'm an anally retentive capitalist lackey - although I don't think anyone who knows anything about me would describe me that way. I'm just a working musician and songwriter, trying to make a living out of my music and my recordings.
I think I'll leave this thread alone now. If there were some good reasons to be stated I'm sure they would have turned up by now, and there's a huge amount of repetition going on. I remain, as I started, disappointed that this forum, of all forums, should have contributors who clearly want to hear the music without feeling they should support the musicians who create it.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM

I started, disappointed that this forum, of all forums, should have contributors who clearly want to hear the music without feeling they should support the musicians who create it.

I think it's more in the spirit of music itself which touches the soul in terms of passion & joy - rather like your friend who made a copy of your album in a spirit of genuine wonderment, innocent of any offence, not by being inconsiderate, but by being natural. It is this that music inspires in us - especially folk music, which lives and breathes as a consequence of our very collectivity. We can, therefore, only go so far in claiming our intellectual property without running contrary to very spirit of music itself; an artist in having chosen (or having been chosen) to touch the collective hearts of both friends and strangers alike must accept that such things are apt to run wild and free for the very best of reasons & intentions, thus returning one to the reason one might have been called into music in the first place - that first flowering of poetic passion in which the youthful heart opens to the beauteous song that is sung unsullied by the darker realities of the marketplace which we all must deal with, just in music there's a whole lot more.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:38 PM

matt: Rarely any info whatsoever about who these musicians are/were. Never any hint as to whether the musicians in question are dead or alive. Never any info about their current gigging status. Never any hint as to the world beyond in-the-home consumption of alienated product.

I agree that cost-free downloading does seem to bring out an odd sort of Must Collect Everything Now mentality in some people - a cross between butterfly-collecting and trolley-dash consumerism. But I don't think it's universal. For one thing, I don't think that's at all a fair description of the music blog I keep plugging, Jeremy Browning's Good job I kept my turntable.

I think it's hilarious that serial downloaders seem to think filehsaring is a radical revolutionary democratization of music when it's actually the ne plus ultra of capitalistic consumption

Not really. It's true that being a capitalist consumer is about buying commodities rather than about the quality of the actual things you acquire, but the buying part is fundamental, You could argue that the commodity is "consumed" at the moment you pay money for it - the shine goes off it once you've actually started using it (cf. 'box-fresh' trainers). Free downloading isn't the ne plus ultra of consumerism but a way of short-circuiting it. Even when they're acting like consumers ("Great! More! Now!"), downloaders aren't actually consuming music-as-product. More to the point, downloading is quite consistent with a more quality-oriented, more respectful attitude to the music itself. According to iTunes, I've played every track on _Ballads and songs_ (bought on CD from Mr Bulmer) between 6 and 12 times, and every track on _Nic Jones_ (downloaded) between 14 and 25 times. (And no, I haven't yet bunged Mollie Music a lost-royalties payment, but I will do - in respect of both albums.)

Spleen - stop being so reasonable, you'll spoil all the fun.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:42 PM

I would like to know more about these "Folk Producers" who are "too busy assessing the market place & working up their profit-projections to be too bothered about the pure love of the thing." Can you name some?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM

". . . that first flowering of poetic passion in which the youthful heart opens to the beauteous song that is sung unsullied by the darker realities of the marketplace which we all must deal with, just in music there's a whole lot more."

Ah right. That'll be this then.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:45 PM

Grouch Old Chap.
Thanks for injecting some humour into a thread that was beginning to chase it's own tail in a moribund (but Trad arr) way!
You think graven images of Francis Childe are a problem....Lucy Broadwood is far more scary!.(And I've seen the graven image to prove it!)
Onwards....Let the Download Wars BEGIN!
Ralphie.
Looks like several folks have downloaded my 2 little concertina tunes. Will be ordering the yacht in St Tropez in the morning (I'll take a lark with me for company, She can rise in the air, dew or no dew on her breast. and give me a birds eyed opinion of its structure...)

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Captain Beefheart
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:47 PM

"I don't want to sell my music. I'd like to give it away because where I got it, you didn't have to pay for it."

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:20 PM

Getting back to "Voice of the People" being available on e-music, a downside to e-music is that you pay per song, not per album. Thus, to buy the full set of 484 tracks at 20p costs £96.80, whereas to buy the 20CDs, which also includes the booklets, cost £137.70. The fact that the CDs have 20 to 25 tracks each accounts for this.
Ann Lister might be interested to know that Fellside are also selling their back catalogue on e-music, and so far have about 36 albums. It would be interesting if Ann were to ask Fellside to but "Burnt Feathers", a Fellside recording,up for sale in this way and let us all know how well it sells and what the deal is.
People like myself who use e-music make a monthly subscription for 50 downloads per month, so I I tend to browse under Labels such as Topic, Fellside, etc. known for folk music. If "Burnt Feathers" was there, I, like others, may have bought it.
                                           Zozimus

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Surreysinger
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:22 PM

"You think graven images of Francis Childe are a problem....Lucy Broadwood is far more scary!.(And I've seen the graven image to prove it!)"
Ah come on Ralphie -not totally fair! When in her thirties she looks civilised ... it;s the pic of her in her 50's that scares me .... and I've never considered genuflecting in front of her - perish the thought!!!

"I'll take a lark with me for company, She can rise in the air, dew or no dew on her breast. and give me a birds eyed opinion of its structure."
But will she also be your morning alarmer???

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

emusic.com charges 12 credits for albums from some of the US folk labels, like Folkways and County and Document. It charges one credit per track for Rounder, and for UK labels like Fellside and Topic. That can get expensive on long CDs, as Zozimus says.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:38 AM

http://torrentfreak.com/bono-puts-policing-piracy-into-his-next-decade-top-10-100103/

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: brezhnev
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:34 AM

I like SO'P's idea for online archive of lost recordings, but I can't see it happening for a few years yet.

The old model of packaged product may be in its death throes, but the music industry (including the labels that put out folk music) are going to hang on in there and squeeze the last £10 out of the last punter for the same-old-same-old CDs and mp3s before they think seriously about doing anything with the tens of thousands of tracks that have been lying buried in their vaults for decades.

And why shouldn't they?

They can't afford to digitize and release those old recordings in the traditional way and through the traditional distribution channels (including the latest online rip-off merchants). They're in business to make profits and under the current model they can't make the sums add up. The trouble is, the sums are never going to add up again.

Someone's got to be brave enough to try something new. So why shouldn't it be the folk labels, who've always nurtured an image of championing 'the people's music' and keeping THE MAN at arms length? What is there to stop them taking the initiative collectively and being the first to try a different model by clubbing together to start an online public library of their archive recordings?

TOGETHER they could set up a not-for-profit organisation and go for public funding to get it all off the ground. They could even involve the EFDSS. I'd sign up for £25 a year membership and 10p a download if enough labels got involved.

Who knows? One day even the bad guys (Decca, EMI, Celtic Music etc etc) might be persuaded to see the sense in joining in. They're not going to make much money out of those recordings any other way. And they might even get a buzz from doing the decent thing. Why not?

In the meantime the argy-bargy about the rights and wrongs of sharing lost treasures through online communities seems a bit pointless. What are people supposed to do if they want to hear Peter Bellamy's Won't You Go My Way? Wait with saintly resignation for a re-issue? For all we know, the master tapes were chucked into a Paris skip years ago.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: brezhnev
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:05 AM

Forgot to ask - does anyone know how long copyright lasts for recorded music these days? Has the planned EU extension from 50 to 70 years taken effect? If not, doesn't that make sharing pre-1960 recordings legal?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:12 AM

Brezhnev, you have a point. However most of the complaints in this thread have revolved around making current albums freely available. If THTM had restricted itself to the claim it makes about making available out-of-print rarities then I think it would have been viewed rather more pragmatically.

There are two quite separate issues here. One is the availability of archive recordings. With modern technology it is now possible to publish these, but most record labels (especially small folk labels) don't have the resources to do it themselves. What you suggest is a possible solution, but would still be very demanding of time as well as money and I wonder whether it would be economically viable, and whether it is of sufficiently wide interest to attract public funding in these straitened times.

That still leaves the problem that there is some fantastic music in the archives which people understandably want to hear. Maybe there is a public-interest case which outweighs copyright, ethically if not legally, although as has been pointed out this is far from clear-cut in some cases. What I am sure of is that posting dubious-quality tracks off well-worn vinyl without even bothering to seek the consent of the rightful owner is not the best way to address this.

The other issue is that of posting copies of current albums. I don't propose to repeat the points which have already been made at length, but it should be obvious that this is quite a different matter.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:21 AM

doesn't that make sharing pre-1960 recordings legal?

Not sure, but Won't You Go My Way? wasn't recorded till 1971. Argo is supposed to be digitising their back catalogue but I don't see any mention of that one. It was a live recording done in Norwich and the notes to Wake The Vaulted Echo gives full recording details. No idea if the original masters ended up in a Paris skip but if so, surely Argo could ask the named engineers if they have the tapes.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:34 AM

brezhnev.
Putting aside for a moment all the ownership/copyright problems.
Lets just be practical here.
Right.
Just suppose we have the rights to upload all this material to the web.
That includes all the recordings held by Record companies (either extant or defunct), the EFDSS, National Sound Archive, Reg Halls collection, John Adams project, and sundry others.
So. We've got this warehouse full of recordings, anything from wax cylinders to WAV files on computers (via 78's, DAT tapes, CD-Rs at al)
All recorded at different times over the last 100 years.
Lets also assume that we get Arts Council funding (Big Laugh!!)
I pose the question...who is going to do it all?
My little upload earlier in the thread, putting on one side the 6 hours it took to record, took me 30 minutes to put up on the site. And it's only a 3 minute track.
So, the many 1000s of tracks that we have amassed would take how long?
And we will flog them at 10p a track?
Where will the transfer suite be located? who will pay the rent?
How many staff would be employed?
One person in an 8 hour day could probably transfer 15 items...Having transferred them, cleaned them up digitised them, etc.
These would be pretty skilled people, so we are looking at 30,000 pounds salary per person per year.

To be realistic we would have to employ 100 transfer technicians cost 300 grand...Don't know about equipment...200 grand? premises rent Gawd knows.
And in the end, even if 1000 people a month downloaded (which would be optimistic) 1 track each...
Income would be 100 quid.
I wouldn't want to take such a business plan into the Dragons Den would you?
It's a lovely idea. But,apart from us few enthusiasts, nobody out there cares. X Factor is where the money is, not traditional music.
It's a shame, but sadly, it's true.
If you can come up with a business plan that works, great. I'd love to see it.sorry to sound negative. But all these dreams cost money.
And the money isn't there.

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:37 AM

Hi Howard...Missed your post.
Was too busy typing mine!!
But I think we agree!
Cheers Ralphie

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: brezhnev
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:00 AM

Borchester Echo, can you point me in the direction of your info on Argo's plans to digitise its back catalogue? The only reissues I can find on their website are from the classical catalogue and the "forthcoming releases" section is empty. Am I looking in the wrong place?

About the copyright thing, I was thinking about recordings that came out pre-1960: like Alan Lomax and the Ramblers, Shirley Collins' Sweet England, stuff on Topic and Beltona...

Unfortunately Kevin Daly, who produced Won't You Go My Way, is dead. As you suggested, I have written to Argo to ask them to chase up Peter Self, who did the recording with his mobile studio. Would you accept a friendly wager that the album will be out of copyright before I get a reply?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:14 AM

I only said Argo were "supposed to be" digitising their back catalogue. They clearly haven't got to Bellamy yet. I'm not sure about taking on your bet about getting an answer from Argo about Counterpoint Mobile Recordings and the masters before Won't You Go My Way? goes out of copyright because Neil Wayne of Free Reed evidently found a way to include certain tracks on his compilation a decade ago.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: brezhnev
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:19 AM

Ralphie/Howard, one person transferring 15 items a day. That's over 4,000 tracks a year! Excellent. There's no rush, they've been lying around for decades. I'll set up the transfer suite in my spare room. 200,000 for the kit? Maybe someone who knows can tell us, but my guess is a lot less.

Likewise I think your estimate of 1,000 downloads a month is a bit conservative.

It's good to know that you'd love to see it happen. As my grandad used to say: where there's a will there's a way. The alternative is to leave them to gather dust and rot. And then they'll be gone. Forever.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:20 AM

Well-said Howard.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,ralphie
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:55 AM

Breshnev Old Fruit!
I will expand.
I was there when they set up the BBC archiving project 10 or so years ago.
Young enthusiastic people, with an eye on a career in broadcasting, would come in bright eyed and bushy tailed. Up for the job..Within three months they would either get another job, or just leave.
Have you ever watched paint dry? That is what this job would entail.
When I said I could do 15 tracks a day, I was being a bit hopefull.
First find your 78 player..(professional quality) 1/4 inch tape machine that still works...DAT machine..(Haven't been made for years. rare as hens teeth, and the Beeb have already brought the few hundred that still exist)
Time spent to transfer, edit, re-eq, master, put on a server, upload to the web, and that is without all the documentation that, hopefully would go with each track...when recorded, where, who by.
Everything being carefully catalogued.
So one person to upload the material.
One person to edit/mix/master each track.
One person to do the admin.

You'd maybe get 3 or 4 tracks a day. If you're lucky!
I was referring to me uploading an already mixed track in my attic.

You have to remember I spent 33 years as a sound engineer at the BBC. I know just how long it takes to do the simplest of things.
We had a saying.
90% of the work takes 90% of the time.
The other 10% takes the other 90% of the time.
And you still haven't come up with who exactly is going to fund all this.
Not, who you think should fund it, we all know that. But who is going to put their hands in their pockets.

Sorry mate. I know exactly how impossible this would be.
It really isn't feasable without a financial input of something approaching 3/4 of a million pounds.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 12:21 PM

The old model of packaged product may be in its death throes . . . traditional distribution channels (including the latest online rip-off merchants).

Reality check!

I think the idea that the old model of packaged product is on the way out is mostly folklore, misinformation and media-led wishful thinking. Today's Guardian reported that 2009 album sales were down only 3.5% on 2008 and this in a year claimed to be the worst recession since the 30s with many high street outlets for CDs closing. Can't find the report quickly, but within the last month they also reported that the UK's CD prices were the lowest in Europe and that it was online retailers who had pushed the average price down. Hardly "rip-off merchants" then.

I also think that the majority of falls in CD sales over the past decade have been almost entirely singles (which the same report says were their highest ever last year, but 98% downloads) and the sort of impulse-buy TV advertised pop product that the great unwashed might have grabbed in Woollies or Virgin (RIP). Real music fans, quite a small percentage of the general population, still prefer real things to collect and the figures would indicate they're buying just as much. Not, however, concentrated on the sort of stuff the mammoth multinationals like Sony or Universal put out, but spread across a much wider range of music and independent labels.

I've been led to believe that the total units sold are not really decreasing but they are spread over more titles, so the average quantity sold per title is less. Also that what looks like a big fall in CD sales is only when you measure it by the total income from them because prices have dropped so much. It doesnt seem so long ago that the tabloids were screaming that nonsense about "CDs cost 50p to make, sell for £14, record labels are ripping us off for £13.50 profit", ignoring costs like VAT, shop margins, distributor margins, recording costs, promotional costs, songwriter royallties etc etc etc. Now the average sale price of a CD is probably more like £8-£10 via those "online rip-off" merchants.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 12:40 PM

Those figures I quoted above from the Guardian are UK ones of course. I forget that they read this in the old colonies.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:01 AM

"Real music fans, quite a small percentage of the general population, still prefer real things to collect and the figures would indicate they're buying just as much"...

Real music fans (well, this one at least) resents the implication that he's a lesser species for buying downloads. You can't listen to the packaging!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:07 AM

To be fair Spleen, I don't think that that was what was meant!
Drifting from the Original point (again!) for a minute. The reason I don't do downloads is threefold.
1. If I had all my music on a Hard Drive/I Pod whatever, The Drive would probably crash or I'd lose the I pod!
2. If I lived on downloads, I'd soon forget what was on it!
With CDs I often glance along the racks and go, Hey, I'd forgotten about that one..
3. Listening to music on a computer, particularly Windows media player with those stupid scrawly things going on makes my blood run cold.

It was suggested earlier that one could download VOTP. Great, and it ends up about 50 quid cheaper. What you don't get is the wealth of information in the booklets that come with the CDs.

As for availability (due to shops closing down etc). If I want a CD I'd firstly buy direct from the artist, That way they get a bigger slice of the cake. Failing that, there are plenty of specialist on-line shops catering for all tastes. (I tryand avoid Amazon though..It's a bit too corporate for my tastes)
And, I quite like the idea of witing for the postman to turn up with a package! Everyday feels like Christmas!

Downloads just feel soulless to me! If that makes me a Luddite, so be it!
None of that solves the original problem of Legal/Illegal downloads, It's just my personal viewpoint.
So, back to the subject in hand.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

Just bought an old used cd album for $45. It is in excellent condition, although ex-public library. Unfortunately it has not been re-issued. I may make a copy, but for my own use only.

The stuff available as downloads is not the best in reproduction quality, and lacks the accompanying information/booklet.

I most certainly will not buy albums or tracks that are copyright and have been ripped off by some enterprising thief.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:54 PM

Very little of the retail price of a commercial recording actually relates to the music itself - it's mostly bits of plastic and cardboard, and the biggest slice is the retailer's profit. The real value of a downloaded mp3 file of respectable sound quality, which contains perhaps 20 - 30% of the information of the original sound file, is much less than is generally perceived. The prices charged for legal downloads of commercially released recordings are ridiculous and such blatant profiteering should be boycotted. Whilst it can be argued that (for a variety of reasons) many people can't hear the difference between mp3 and the 'real' thing, I don't think that justifies the price. Data-wise, an mp3 file is the equivalent to (roughly) a thirty second sample of a three minute song, except that it creates the illusion of having heard it all.

Send your fivers to the artists, I applaud that with all my heart, (and both hands) but be aware that the sale of a single commercially available album (from an established record company/distribution network) would be unlikely to generate 5p, let alone £5 for the artist. Even in the case of artists producing themselves and being their own retailer, still only a small portion of the price of a CD is for the music itself. Obviously, if the recording is no longer available no-one has been deprived of a profit if it is copied. The continued availability of the music in mp3 format could, however, stimulate enough demand for it to be re-released.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:03 PM

if the recording is no longer available no-one has been deprived of a profit if it is copied. The continued availability of the music in mp3 format could, however, stimulate enough demand for it to be re-released.

Yes and yes. The big question for me is, what message does the availability of deleted music for free download send to the owners of the rights? I think the main message is

Remember this? We do!

And I think it's a powerful way to send that message - possibly even more powerful than starting a thread on Mudcat...

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:19 PM

from several days ago

"Topics 24 CD Voice Of The People set .....Not available as a download sadly. "

It was last Feb....ALL of it... at no cost if you knew where to look. It may still be there for some, and I have little doubt it will show up again. As I have said, everyone needs to decide personally how to deal with such things....because **someone** will eventually upload it. THOSE are the ones I am curious about. If it is not uploaded, my morals are not tempted.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Charlie
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:27 PM

Eeh! Remember the days when you bought an lp from the local recors shop (with hard earned cash) and gazed at and digested the imagery and info on the sleeve on the way home and treasured it and played it for friends (in it's entirety), maybe taped it for them -remember the old 'home taping is killing music!'

Everything is there now at the touch of a button. I remember (and I'm only talking the 1980's) walking round three record shops in a small english town looking for blues records of any description. How many did I find? none!! But when you did find this stuff you treasured it!!! Now it is all available and disposable. Stop the world, I wanna get off!!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:53 PM

The following Nic Jones albums are available from www.molliemusicrecords.co.uk
                         "Penguin Eggs"
                         "In Search Of"
                         "Unearthed"
                         "Game, Set, Match"

No material released by Nic or The Halliard is authorised for free download.

                         Nigel Paterson (Mandolin, The Halliard)

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:46 PM

Is any material released by Nic authorised for royalty-free resale?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM

Nic's only source of earned income is his royalties. None of his released material is 'authorised for royalty-free resale'.
                                                             NP

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:13 PM

Echoing Nigels post.
The 4 CDs named, (and the Halliard re-issue) are available from Mollie Music.
Penguin Eggs and Game Set Match, are freely available for purchase from any outlet that has dealings with Topic.
The lost 4 LPs are just that ...lost.
And as Nigel says. Nics sole income (apart from invalidity benefit) is from CD sales.
And you ask about Royalty free re-sales?
Dream on.
God, he's hardly getting that much anyway. You want to deprive him of more?
Go and buy them. Preferably from Mollie Music. As I've said. the lost albums are just that....LOST.
Not my choice, but, life isn't always that fair.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 02:59 AM

Nic's only source of earned income is his royalties. None of his released material is 'authorised for royalty-free resale'.

So there's no difference, as far as Nic is concerned, between a download of one of the early albums and a CD-R re-release put out by Celtic.

Ralphie - I wasn't advocating "royalty-free resale", far from it. Just pointing out that it is happening - and that a lot of the people who fulminate against bootleggers don't seem to have any problem with it.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:29 AM

This is what I said miles further up: that there is no financial difference to former Leader / Trailer artists whether their music is downloaded from a pirate site or put out on CD-R by Celtic. Neither, however, is morally right.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:14 AM

Well. My point is that I don't have the right to own anything without paying for it. Whether it be a CD or a Download. This is particularly applicable to Celtic music.
It is slightly odd to say that It's OK to have the music because the artist who recorded it isn't getting any money anyway.
I don't HAVE to own a particular song or record. I quite possibly would wish to own such an item. If so, I would purchase it from a reputable supplier, safe in the knowledge that a proportion of my money would end up in the artists bank account. Anything else is simple theft.
And yes, Pip, you're right. It is happening. And lots of people are taking advantage of the possibility to download stuff for free. You can't stop them, true. But publicising the fact that sites like this exist, is not particularly helpful.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:48 AM

It is slightly odd to say that It's OK to have the music because the artist who recorded it isn't getting any money anyway.

I'm not saying that either.

I'm saying that I owe Nic a royalty for downloading one of his 'lost' albums and for buying one of the others from Celtic.

My point is that there are two different arguments here, which get mixed up when people talk about bootlegging music. One is that bootlegging is a violation of property rights: whoever owns the property has the right to sell it or not, and all we can do is pay whatever price they want to charge. The other is that bootlegging rips off musicians, and that musicians should be paid for their work.

I agree 100% with the second argument, but not with the first one. Someone who buys Nic's first album from Celtic is doing absolutely nothing illegal, and neither is Celtic by putting it on sale. But Nic's still being ripped off, and I think that's what really matters. "Always try to make sure the artist gets paid" strikes me as a better policy than "Never download, copy or tape" - it's more workable, too.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: brezhnev
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:47 AM

Folknacious,
Despite what the BPI said last week ("entertainment retailers across the board worked with their suppliers to end the year with a far better result than anyone had expected". Ah, bless!), the longer term evidence points to the CD (physical packaged product) being in rapid decline. 176 million albums were sold in CD format in the UK in 2004, 112 million last year.

I've lost my calculator, but that gives the CD, erm, about...

Re online rip-offs, it would be interesting to know what makes up the price of your average £8-£10 online album these days.

I was looking to buy a digital download the other day of an album that I first owned on vinyl, then bought on tape when the record got too scratched, then bought on CD when the tape got chewed up, then the CD was nicked. (it would have been the fourth time I'd have coughed up for the same product if I'd gone ahead - great sales model while it lasted).

As far as i can work out, the costs of the digital download version are: recording - nil, manufacturing - nil, distribution - almost nothing, artist royalties (almost nothing). Hmmmm.

Presumably that's one of the reasons why more people are doing more illegal file-sharing - that and the fact that it's the ONLY way you'll ever (according to Ralphie's doom-laden account of the spiralling costs of digitisation) get to hear one of those "rare old folk albums" that started off this thread.

P.S. I see that Ronan Keating says today that he thinks "eventually all music will be free. You pay a yearly subscription and you get all your music free." Not if you're into folk music you won't, Ronan.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:02 AM

And them self-styled folk-singers, well I must bring 'em in,
With their home-produced albums and they think it no sin,
To call it a CD, when its a cheap CD-R
Which will cost you a tenner but won't play in the car!
Honesty's all out of fashion -
These are the riggs of the time, time me boys!
These are the rigs of the time!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:18 AM

Sure, sales of 'product' are down, but plenty of people still buy CDs and even vinyl (my preferred pressing plant is United Record Pressing in Nashville, TN). I don't like downloads for a number of reasons: compressed sound; hard-drive crashes; nothing to look at or hold, etc. And the playback format - ipods, etc. - seems tailor-made to turn everything into background music. I don't need music all the time, I need a certain amount of silence to help me appreciate the music. Like white in a black-line drawing.

"eventually all music will be free. You pay a yearly subscription and you get all your music free."

Yes, and my housing is free - I pay a monthly mortgage and I get all my housing free.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: brezhnev
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM

not really like a mortgage. think of it as being a subscriber to a national folk music library service. like paying the licence fee for the BBC or buying a lottery ticket for the EFDSS. You know, value for money.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Gedi
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 09:20 AM

Pip said a few posts back; "I agree 100% with the second argument, but not with the first one. Someone who buys Nic's first album from Celtic is doing absolutely nothing illegal, and neither is Celtic by putting it on sale. But Nic's still being ripped off, and I think that's what really matters. "Always try to make sure the artist gets paid" strikes me as a better policy than "Never download, copy or tape" - it's more workable, too. "

Absolutely. I dont agree with ripping off artists and dont advocate downloading albums, but one has to ask who is ripping off the artist more, the downloaders or the music industry who pays the artist a matter of pennies for an album which sells for anywhere between £5 and £15.

I know this is not always practical but I would like to see folk musicians (especially) produce & market their own material so that ALL (or very nearly all) of the revenue goes to them rather than some fat-cat producer (sit down, have a cigar). Obviously some sales would be lost due to downloading, but I still reckon they would get more from the people who pay than they would if they went through the music industry. I would far sooner buy directly from the artist (as I did just recently from Mary Humphries & Anahata for some of their excellent albums) than buy something off Amazon or go into HMV.

And if I were to download It would be nice if the performers of past material had websites with a paypal link so that I could then make an appropriate donation.

This is obviously a complex area, not at all black and white, but I do think things need to change for the future. I think a lot of people who have downloaded in the past are now getting the message but I still think a means of getting money direct to the artist, rather than relying on the royalties system would help.

Ged

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Sean Earnest
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:38 PM

I guess I stumbled into the "Mighty Wind" consortium here. The notion that everything was categorically better back in your salad days is as elitist as it is puerile. The times they are a-changing and the way music is accessed and appreciated is changing also. I am perpetually indebted to websites like 'Time Has Told Me' for initiating me into an appreciation for artists I would never have heard about otherwise. I think the demographic of people who compulsively download every file only to never listen to them is very small indeed. Downloads at THTM and other sites are almost exclusively low quality - if you like what you hear (as I do), you are inclined to seek out a better quality copy. You are inclined to research the artists in question. You are inclined to--dare I say it--see them live in concert. You are inclined to incorporate them into your life. THTM is a niche site catering to obscure music enthusiasts, not hobbyist amateurs out to find a free copy of the latest pop record. You don't find sites like THTM by accident - you usually have at least a vague idea of your query.

All of the above considerations pale in comparison to what ought to go without saying: that rare, obscure, unreleased, and antiquated recordings belong as much to the listener as to the artist. If I own a vinyl copy of an record that is stuck in remastering limbo with no hope for re-release, it ought to be perfectly within my rights to offer it to anyone who wants to hear it. If I have a taped live recording of my favorite band, it ought to be perfectly within my rights to make it available to those who wish to hear it. As alluded to above, a record made to escape contract is a record nonetheless, and it becomes the property of those who bought it.

It's asinine to cast all music sharers in the dark light of thievery. Everyone knows that the prevailing motive behind all of this is benign - to propagate good music, to raise awareness. It would be one thing of THTM charged a fee and profited from downloads, but this is not the case. Now it is unfortunate that there are artists not being paid for their work and yes, it is counterproductive to offer contemporary releases for download. But is it really that big of a surprise that folk music doesn't exactly generate multi-millionaires? The artist's financial woes should be directed not at loyal fans but elsewhere. A few people downloading old Nic Jones albums is a drop in the ocean, because let's face it, there aren't that many people doing it.

What confounds me is that there exist certain artists who decry the music sharing community--their own fan base--only to wonder why they haven't moved product. Such artists see their audiences as walking pocketbooks and nothing more. Get a clue and get hip to the reality that the more people you turn on to your music, the wider your sphere will be. You think contemporary music is bad today? Envision a scenario in which there were no shared/traded unofficial recordings in circulation. Envision a world in which, if you weren't lucky enough (or alive enough) to snatch up an original vinyl copy of a record, you just...don't have it. This would be catastrophic. The obscurist underground folk music culture is what is fueling the good music being made today. Snuff that out and it all goes away.

So, artists: release your old shit! Your fans want to hear it. Cf the Grateful Dead template for music sales, taping, etc. If you're out to become the next one-minute-millionaire, perhaps folk music isn't for you.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:31 AM

Sean, have you actually read the other 200-odd posts? It's obvious that sites like THTM benefit music consumers, it's the consequences for musicians which is the issue. Also no-one's doubting the sites' intentions, merely the effects.

You believe you ought to have the right to do what you like with albums you've bought. The fact is, you don't. That's clear under copyright law in most countries, and in the small print. You've only bought a right to listen to the music - you can do what you like with the physical media it came on, but your use of the music itself is limited.

Those who favour music sharing like to think they're standing up for downtrodden musicians against the big bad record companies. The fact is, in the folk world, that's nonsense. Contrary to what Gedi seems to think, there aren't any fat-cat record producers getting rich by exploiting musicians. In the UK anyway, folk record producers are virtually a cottage industry, and many artists produce their own albums. Rip them off, put them out of business, and there won't be any folk albums in future.

If you want to explore new artists, most of them have demos on their websites, on Myspace or Youtube. You don't need to rip off their albums. As for maybe going to their gigs, the chances of a downloader from a global site being able to get to a folk musician's gigs is remote. I guess from the language you use that you are American - the person who hosts THTM is I believe Japanese. Are either of you going to travel to the UK to see, say, Ann Lister (who was one of the first artists to contribute to this discussion)?

Most record labels don't have the resources to digitise their back catalogue. The Nic Jones situation is exceptional - here the person who owns the copyright to Nic's (and other artists') albums is for some unfathomable reason simply refusing to release them except as occasional CD-R copies. If you read the thread, you will see that there is a consensus that it may be acceptable to post albums which are no longer available, but only after a conscientious effort has been made to contact the copyright owner. There can be no justification for posting currently available albums.

To reply to your final point, it's easy to envisage a "a world in which, if you weren't lucky enough (or alive enough) to snatch up an original vinyl copy of a record, you just...don't have it". That was the normal situation until just a few years ago.

The reason no one in the folk world is likely to become a millionaire is that many of their so-called "fans" will spend more on their beer in an evening at a folk club than they're willing to pay for a ticket to get into it, and prefer to download their albums rather than pay for them.

To repeat it for the umpteenth time, copying an album for a mate is one thing, making it available for hundreds, perhaps thousands, to download is different. Legally they are the same, but downloading has a hugely greater impact.