BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett

Subject: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM

Maybe it's me..but I think this idea absolutely stinks, bearing in mind that Wootton Bassett is the town where our dead soldiers come home to..

Details from The Swindon Advertiser

Islam4UK


Whilst I do not understand why our soldiers are fighting this 'war'..I find this idea totally insensitive and repugnant.

The chap who is organising it said on Radio 5 this morning that he knew it would gain maximum news coverage if he staged it there...The man interviewing him was having great trouble being polite to this deeply insensitive prat.

If you don't like this country and it's laws, way of life, and religious beliefs, then find a country you do like and bugger off over there. It's that easy...and sorry, but that ain't racist...that comes from someone who is now sick to death at the enemy amongst us, who seek to cause maximum distress and unrest in this country, whilst taking all they can from us.

Yeesh! Have we lost the plot in this country, or what?


I suggest Mr. Choudray takes his beliefs elsewhere....and asks those within the Taliban how many innocent Afghanis they've killed, and how many hundreds of thousands they rule over, by creating absolute terror amongst their own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:12 PM

And here is his letter, from the Islam4UK site....

>>>>>>>DATED 3rd January 2010

May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon those who follow the guidance.

Following the public announcement of an impending procession by islam4uk (a branch of Al-Muhajiroun) through the Market Town of Wootton Basset we thought it only appropriate that we provide an explanation and a little more about the purpose behind the procession, especially to the family and friends of those who have died there and who may have been led to believe that it is merely an act of incitement or provocation.

We begin by inviting all non-Muslims to Islam, the perfect and most beautiful way of life, a favour from Allah (God) to mankind to take him out of the darkness of worshipping his own desires to the exclusive worship, submission and obedience of Allah alone, without partners and to testify the Messenger-ship of the final Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). We urge you to embrace Islam and save yourselves and your family from the hellfire and not to believe the lies and distortions which the Western media and non-Islamic regimes would have you believe about Muslims and their true intentions. Islam means submission and the Muslim is the one who submits to the will of God in his life. Verily the Messenger Muhammad told us that whoever heard his name from the Jews and Christians and did not believe would be held accountable for that on the day of judgement.

We start by pointing out what many wise people already know i.e. that the British public have once again been lied to by their politicians about the war in Afghanistan. What began as a fight for freedom and democracy and to protect the human rights of the civilians and to find Sheikh Usama Bin Laden (by the use of B52 bombers) has today become a campaign to protect the security of the British public back home and it has gone from being a campaign which could be completed without firing a weapon within 3 years to one which could go on for 40 or 50 years with a heavy cost to the participants.

In actual fact the foreign policy of the USA and UK is not about protecting the rights of Muslims or propagating democracy and freedom nor is it about the threat posed by the people in Afghanistan to the British public at all, but rather it is to establish their own military, economic, strategic and ideological interests in the region. The rich resources of Afghanistan, its position on the cusp between the Indian sub-continent, Southern Russian, Asia and China and its populations call for the Shari'ah are the real reasons why the military has sought to establish a permanent role there, no matter what the cost to the lives and wealth of the indigenous people or indeed their own. Pivotal in this is the desire to prevent Muslims from running their own affairs and establishing an Islamic State if they so wish but rather to maintain a puppet in the area (Mr Karzia) to maintain and protect Western interests.

In order to create an atmosphere where these greedy objectives can be accomplished the Western and even Eastern media have constantly shown atrocities being committed against the ordinary people of Afghanistan and Pakistan, in markets, universities and public gathering places and have then blamed these on the perceived enemy, in order to discredit any legitimate struggle for liberation and in order to demonise them in the eyes of the world and thereby justify the occupation and real intentions. The truth about such bloodshed and mayhem is only now becoming public knowledge after information about the real perpetrators has emerged (such as the CIA related agency Black Water). The billions of dollars paid to the Pakistan regime by the USA/UK alliance and to the Secret services in Pakistan, their army and to the Karzai Afghan regime by way of bribes has led them to slaughter their own citizens with the help of the USA/UK and to then blame the Taliban in an attempt to subdue those seeking liberation to fulfil their right to run their lives by divine law and to protect the US/UK military and economic interests. With additional atrocities being committed by the USA and UK through indiscriminate air raids and other operations the number of ordinary Muslim men, women and children who have been killed has reached horrendous proportions. Not to mention the torture and abuse of basic rights by the occupiers in Afghanistan, such as in Bagram Air Base, the case of Dr Affia Siddiqui being a clear and brutal example.

There is no doubt in most people's minds that the final conclusion to the current conflict in Afghanistan has already been written. Ultimate victory for those fighting in their own backyard, familiar with the mountains and plains and their supporters who struggle to protect their sanctities from the foreign aggressors cannot be denied. The signs for this are already appearing with incohesive thinking among the British and American chain of command, the crippling effect of the war on their economies back home and the depression of the soldiers realising that there is no real moral or ethic reason for them to murder innocent men, women and children to fulfil their politicians agenda. Blaming a lack of equipment is one of the ways in which politicians have tried to shift the focus. It is noteworthy that unlike among the US and UK soldiers, there has not been one reported suicide or attempted suicide among those resisting occupation.

As a consequence this can only mean much more destruction for the USA and UK sons and daughters sent by their uncaring leaders to their deaths. After all this would not be the first time that this region has acted as a grave yard for empires in history, notably the British and Russians.

It is worth reminding those who are still not blinded by the media propaganda that Afghanistan is not a British Town near Wootton Basset but rather Muslim land which no one has the right to occupy, with a Muslim population who do not deserve their innocent men, women and children to be killed for political mileage and for the greedy interests of the oppressive US and UK regimes.

The procession in Wootton Basset is therefore an attempt to engage the British publics minds on the real reasons why their soldiers are returning home in body bags and the real cost of the war. The conflict in Afghanistan is not an 'honourable' defence of British values and a cause for the British to remain secure, rather the presence of the US and UK forces in Afghanistan is the cause of instability in the region and a cause of insecurity for the British people back home. The parades, the speeches about soldiers doing their duty and the feeling of patriotism has obfuscated the reality of the conflict and the murderous crimes being committed by the occupiers and their agents. The British public is blissfully unaware of what is being done in their name by the Blair/Brown regimes and were the truth known no doubt the pressure to withdraw all troops immediately would be much greater.

It is our desire to end the cycle of violence and the quagmire in which we find ourselves in today in Afghanistan. For the British public to do their duty and force their regime to save their children from death and destruction, from an oppressive and costly campaign and to stop the occupation of Muslim land. We realise that, especially in times of war, we are up against a very sophisticated propaganda machine and no doubt raising awareness about the painful truth of this conflict will unleash a torrent of abuse from the media and government against us, who have their own predetermined agenda, however the world is today also small enough for those wishing to verify the truth to be able to do so via the many news and information outlets.




Mr Anjem Choudary

UK Head of Al-Muhajiroun <<<<<<<


I'd suggest he speaks to the Oppressed Women of Afghanistan before he criticises our soldiers too much. Ask his own soldiers how they treat their own people...

Ho hum...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

We've been driving my step daughter to the airport today and have been listening to the coverage of this on the radio. Approving/disapproving of the war and honouring the dead are two different things. We still honour the dead of WW1 whilst sometimes questioning whether that war should have been fought at all.

The people of Wootton Bassett are not trying to make a political point and to hi-jack this for politico-religious reasons smacks of being a cheap political stunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:16 PM

Sorry, I meant to say "cheap publicity stunt".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:31 PM

The women of Afghanistan are no better off under the people the UK and US governments support than they are under the Taliban. Here's a feminist who has spent time with women in Afghanistan and asked them what they want, talking about what they told her. (Here's a hint - they want the US and UK to get out of their country - but who cares what they want, right?)...

http://www.miptalk.com/?p=325


I guess you don't believe in free speech. That makes you a lot like the repressive regimes you're criticizing here in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:34 PM

"We begin by inviting all non-Muslims to Islam, the perfect and most beautiful way of life, a favour from Allah (God)..." ~ Mr Anjem Choudary

I have heard many interviews and discussions concerning Islam in recent years, and most of the followers say that Islam will eventually become the religion of all people on Earth.

They don't care how long it takes or how many people are hurt in the process.

Followers of Islam are told to force conversion (when they gain power to do so) in three steps:

          1) ask the infidels to convert

          2) demand that the infidels convert

          3) if the first two steps don't work, kill them

Note: the UK is just at step 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:38 PM

The originator of this thread has no problem with Christian nurses proselityzing their patients, but she doesn't like it when Muslims proselityze. So it's ok for Christianity to try to convert the world, but not Islam. I find it very amusing and at the same time alarming to see the double standards people apply to Islam as compared to other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

pdq, please provide some documentation for your anti-Muslim screed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: PaulF
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

The punishment visited upon both those who convert from Islam to any other religion, and for those who try to convert Moslems to another religion, is death.
Methinks someone is taking advantage of the sort of free speech we allow here, but is not allowed in any Moslem country I know of.
PaulF

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:48 PM

PaulF, that is not what all Muslims believe. Only the more extreme Muslims. We have Christians in my country who believe that children who disobey their parents should be stoned to death. We only ever hear about the Muslim extremists and people like you try to tell us that they represent all Muslims, while nobody ever talks about the extremists from other religions. And you can't criticize Muslim countries for not allowing free speech if you don't support it yourself. If you don't believe in free speech, you're no better than they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

"I guess you don't believe in free speech. That makes you a lot like the repressive regimes you're criticizing here in this thread."

I believe in speech being used for Good, not Evil.

We have tolerated way too much Evil, for way too long...in my opinion.


I've had my freedom of speech taken away from me, by the BBC and by those on here who were part of the witch hunt, Carol...yet all I ever did was dared to talk about social issues and protest songs, so please, do not talk to me about freedom of speech.

If you use your voice to stir up hatred and evil, then I feel you absolutely deserve to have your right to freedom of speech removed.

Sorry, but the women of Afghanistan know no other way of life than the terrible one they've had forced on them for so long. Until the women of the Middle East, in general, rise as one to put an end to the male dominated society which prevails in so many countries over there, life will never improve for them...no matter how much people from the West try to help.

We had many Middle Eastern female patients who came to us to seek refuge from husbands who beat them. That's what they did, went off around Europe, consulting various doctors, about this or that, illness that didn't really exist...just fear which brought them so low...It was paid for by their Health Offices in those days...At least it gave them a break from their terrible fear filled lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM

I'd have no problem with a nurse who wanted to pray to Allah for one of her patients, actually, Carol. It would all be done in kindness, nothing else.

I do have a deep problem with Extremists, of any religion, or country...who preach hatred against others.

We've put up with it for way too long in this country, because of our hugely tolerant nature...

Well, you can push the British just so far...

Personally, I've reached my limit with all this crap..and to be honest, I would LOVE to hear Good and Decent Voices from the true Muslim community condemning all the crap that is going on around them, in their God's name.

It is way past time for The Good Men and True to stand together, as one religion, one nation, one colour and tell the evil minorities that enough is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:59 PM

But it's ok for people from your country to go into other people's countries and kill their women and children, and steal their resources. I think you don't understand what evil is, Lizzy. Keep in mind that the government of your country for centuries went into other people's countries and subjugated them, treated them as slaves, took their resources, converted them to Christianity by force, and otherwise made their lives a misery. And now your government is doing it again. And when they try to tell you they don't like it (after having fled to your country because it's the only place they are safe from the predations of your government and mine), you call them evil. Well, I think that's a case of the pot calling the kettle sooty.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:02 PM

And I dare you to listen to the talk I posted earlier in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM

Carol, the people who did terrible things in the past are long dead and gone.

My country also gave birth to William Wilberforce and a great many other people who believed in freedom for people and who worked their butts off, dedicated their lives to ending slavery around the world.

I will never give in to the 'Oh you're country was so awful' brigade, because my country did a helluva lot of GOOD things too, and even to this day the good things from those times still remain in many countries where Great Britain once dwelt.

Most countries have skeletons, as do most religions...

Willaim Wilberforce is still, to this day, a man who influences many for the good, especially in the US, where the Amazing Change movement is.

Yes, I understand Evil alright...and right now, it is amongst many of us. As a sweet cleaning lady once said to me, back when my son was in hospital as a very young boy..."During the War we could see the enemy, dear. Now it seems to be amongst us, hidden"

How right she was.

And I'm not just talking about the religous fanatics there, of all religions, but those who seek to undermine society, dumb it down, bring it down, for their own ends, whomsoever they may be.

And....I'd appreciate it if you didn't use *your* freedom of speech to directly imply that I have double standards or any other such values. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:19 PM

Yusuf - The one 'Islam' that I believe in, and the one that so many within 'the other Islam' have so much to learn from........"Spread the message of Peace"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:26 PM

The man organising this planned march/protest has already made himself notorious on several previous media outings. He is clever, and knows that this plan will provoke hostile responses. He will thereafter be able to point to those responses as evidence of anti-Islamic sentiment.

So to oppose him vociferously is to play into his hands.

Unsurprisingly, some of his most vigorous critics are other British Muslims, wno are only too aware that his main aim is to ensure the prolongation of animosity.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:32 PM

Gosh !! Until tonight, I had had absolutely NO IDEA that the government of the country I love had sent our troops into Afghanistan in order to kill all the women and children AND steal that country's resources.
    So thanks, Carol------now I understand ! So, next time these Muslim zealots and extremists mindlessly slaughter a train-load of commuters or a 747-load of holiday-makers, I will be that much better equipped to fully appreciate the reasons for this disgusting,pointless,sub-human behaviour. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:51 PM

CarolC my son is about to deploy to Afghanistan for his fourth tour. It might surprise you to know that at no time has he been instructed or specifically trained to kill their women and their children or "steal their resources", in fact as far as their rules of engagement go they are strictly prohibited from opening fire if doing so risks the death of any unarmed Afghan person.

Now you did state the following with what appeared to be a marked degree of certainty:

"But it's ok for people from your country to go into other people's countries and kill their women and children, and steal their resources. I think you don't understand what evil is, Lizzy. Keep in mind that the government of your country for centuries went into other people's countries and subjugated them, treated them as slaves, took their resources, converted them to Christianity by force, and otherwise made their lives a misery. And now your government is doing it again."

And now we (the UK) are "doing it again" examples please? What resources have been stolen? I keep asking such as yourself who keep coming out with this crap for an example and none are ever given. You now have the opportunity to put up or shut up.

As Lizzie Cornish has said on balance the British Empire was a force for good in this world, no nation on earth did more to eradicate the slave trade. So we go "into peoples countries subjugate them, treat them as slaves, take their resources and convert them to Christianity by force" - tell me how all that went down in India CarolC? Would you describe India as a Christian country CarolC, it would be if what you stated was true wouldn't it. How about medical benefits of the British Empire CarolC, tell me about the cures passed down to the people by the local rulers, what did they do about malaria (which still holds the record as the greatest killer on earth)?

Care to explain the phenomenon of the Commonwealth CarolC? Second largest international organisation to the United Nations itself. care to explain why countries that have never had any political or historical ties to the UK apply to join this organisation, in which every member has an equal say and in which countries who do not live up to the required standards are expelled by majority decision.

You are very good at knocking CarolC, but woeful when it comes to suggesting alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:52 PM

Tunnel Vision Rules !

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:15 PM

It could be that the protest is a very bad idea, in bad taste, etc., but let's stick to what this country is supposed to believe in and do nothing to stop it going ahead as long as nothing illegal is planned. I can't think what it is the protesters are trying to achieve, but so be it. You have three choices: support it, ignore it or treat it with dignified disdain. Dignified. And read the papers the next day and see how the holier-than-thou gutter press gleefully make money out of splashing their righteous "outrage" across the front pages.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:31 PM

The Battle for Hearts and Minds goes both ways. (Is the guy's funding home grown?)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:35 PM

So let me get this correct. Some barmpot - for publicity purposes - proposes some nutty idea which will never get off the ground in a month of Sundays.

And people take this seriously?

I have done things like this for publicity. I managed to get the college I worked for on Page Three of "The Sun". Then it was newspaper after newspaper, radio station after radio station for about three weeks. I became an "expert".

The newspapers are suckers for this sort of horlicks and people jump on the bandwagon.

This man no more represents the Muslim point of view than I do.

As for the British Empire being a force for good, when the British arrived in Africa the Africans owned the land and the British had the bible.

Shortly afterwards the Africans had the bible and the British owned the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:52 PM

Posts like bubblyrat's abpve bring to mind a couple of lines by Yeats: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity." (Or words to that effect.)

An organiser of the proposed demonstration (perhaps Mr Choudry?) was on the UK's Channel 4 News tonight, debating with the father of a British soldier (dead I assume - I missed the intros). Of the two, the Muslim was infinitely the more composed, coherent and rational. The soldier's dad was completely hung up on the fragile argument that once a UK government has declared war, all British subjects should support the troops. Even in the US, where "my country right or wrong" still retains some credibility, large elements of its citizenry fell well short of that ideal during the Vietnam war.

Those who bang on about the excesses of the Taliban should keep in mind that, as the US-based Slovenian academic Slavoj Žižek observed on the BBC World Service (Hardtalk) recently, muslims in Afghanistan were overwhelmingly moderate,, with liberal outlook before the successive interventions of the USSR and the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:08 AM

Whether or not UK (or US) military are instructed to kill women and children is immaterial to the loved ones of the women and children who are being killed. And while UK forces aren't in Afghanistan to steal resources, they are there to help secure the route of an oil pipeline, and also to provide the US and UK with a staging point for other military adventures in the region. They're definitely not there for the benefit of the people of Afghanistan, who would prefer that they would leave. So people of that region have a perfect right to protest what the UK government and military are doing in that country. And since the UK is supposed to have free speech, they also have a perfect right to do it in the UK. Those who don't think they should have that right are no better than the repressive regimes they criticize in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:31 AM

Well.
Let this idiot have his march...I would heartily recommend though that all the inhabitants of Wootton Bassett go shopping in Swindon for the day.
Then these people can shout as loud as they like, and no-one will be there to hear them.
I defend Freedom of speech for all. I also defend Freedom to ignore if that is my wish.
In this case I choose to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:34 AM

And maybe the media should shut up too.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:11 AM

From Ralphie...."I defend Freedom of speech for all. I also defend Freedom to ignore if that is my wish."

Well, well, WELL!   What a surprise. And...what a shame that you never chose to defend MY freedom of speech, rather than continually attack it...or that you chose never to use your 'freedom to ignore' preferring your 'freedom to bully' instead.   

Hypocrisy has never sat easy with me.




Why the hell should the people of Swindon, or anywhere else, have to put up with this prat?

Where do you draw the line at human rights and freedom?

If you take some of the comments in here seriously, then Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us, because his followers would have the 'right' to kill the Jews, or stand on street corners spewing out their hatred..for after all, if a human being wants to kill another human being, taking the line above, then the liberals would argue that it's their right to be free thinking and to be able to carry out what they want, what they believe....And if you try to stop them, then you don't believe in freedom of speech, freedom of thought, or freedom of action.

What a load of absolute baloney!   

Evil Is As Evil Does.

....and because of bloody political correctness we have all let that Evil rise and rise and rise...to the point where we are now imprisoned by our so-called 'freedom'.




"Those who bang on about the excesses of the Taliban should keep in mind that, as the US-based Slovenian academic Slavoj Žižek observed on the BBC World Service (Hardtalk) recently, muslims in Afghanistan were overwhelmingly moderate,, with liberal outlook before the successive interventions of the USSR and the US."

Tell that to the young girls, scarred for life purely for DARING to go to school, after the Taliban threw acid in their faces. Geez, some of you people have no idea how some of the women in the Middle East suffer.

Carol, I would lay my life on the fact that nearly all the troops out there would hate to have to kill a woman or a child...and would go out of their way to help them wherever possible.

Yes, some soldiers ARE trained to kill women and children..and the reason? Because the Taliban use women and children to bring bombs to the troops, just as Yasser Arafat trained children to kill...And the reason he did it? Because he knew that most people would rather die themselves before they killed a child....and that the earlier you can train a child to kill, the better fighters you have, because the implanted hatred runs through them so deeply.

There is really nothing more evil than that...

Children in many countries in the Middle East are taught to spit on the US flag, to regard them as their enemy from so early on, that by the time they reach adulthood, they are well and truly brainwashed.

Getting back to this Choudary person.....well of course he's able to stay rational and composed. So did Hitler...

The father of the murdered soldier, on the other hand, had lost his reason for life itself, and therefore will obviously be far more passionate and incensed, particularly at what this insensitive prat is trying to do, because he has held his dead son in his arms, buried him and will grieve for him for the rest of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:34 AM

Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us

They still are, but madlizziecornish chooses to ignore and castigate movements such as Folk Against Fascism because she's taken an irrational dislike to people involved.

In this country, demonstrations about whatever you happen to want or believe in (within reason) are pemitted. If you don't agree with them, don't go. And don't confuse the issue of whether going to war in Afghanistan was A Good Thing with the rights or otherwise of ethnic minorities in this country. In other words, try putting brain into gear before screeching.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:25 AM

"If you take some of the comments in here seriously, then Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us, because his followers would have the 'right' to kill the Jews"

Ummmm...no. The right to free speech and the right to free action are two different things. One is a fundamental principle of democracy, the other is not.

"or stand on street corners spewing out their hatred."

But they do. Google Casuals United. Or pop over to Codnor next summer.

I think this protest is misguided and in bad taste, but it has every right to go ahead. I do not think it will advance the cause of racial harmony or integration in the UK, so I think it will be unfortunate if it does take place, but that is no reason to stop it.

Freedom of speech is exactly that - it isn't just about defending the stuff you agree with, or your own right to say whatever you like.


"If you don't like this country and it's laws, way of life, and religious beliefs, then find a country you do like and bugger off over there."

Interestingly, that's pretty much how the BNP and groups like Casuals United feel. So how does this attitude sit alongside the concept of free speech? You've proudly announced in the past that you've got Billy Bragg's Progressive patriot on your bookshelf - it would be much more impressive if you'd actually read it, because then you might understand the alternative history of your own county - its history of dissent. Go and see Tony Benn and Roy Bailey's The Writing on the Wall to learn even more about your own proud heritage of dissent, and to find out why these Muslim protestors, while they may not be saying things you like, are continuing a long and deep-rooted British tradition.

You are the most glorious mass of contradictions, Lizzie. On the one hand, you screech and rant at the most insignificant little perceived injustices, and it's all phoning the press and storming the barracades and taking action over inflated water bills in the spirit of Tolpuddle and the like; on the other hand, anyone who doesn't like the way things work in this country should bugger off out of it.

Well, you can't have it both ways. Either you respect the right of others to express their dissent through peaceful protest, or you put a sock in it yourself the next time you get up a head of indignant steam.

Which is it to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:29 AM

Lizzie,

"Where do you draw the line at human rights and freedom?"

You don't.

"If you take some of the comments in here seriously, then Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us, because his followers would have the 'right' to kill the Jews,"

Killing Jews is not a human right.

The right of Jews not to be killed is a human right.

See how it works?



GUEST

"I think it's great they are holding their protest here. Maybe it will help highlight how Islamic Britain has more rights that than the rest of us."

They will be marching up a street waving banners and demonstrating.

Presumably noone else is allowed to do this?

Nope - anyone may demonstrate. (though ironically the home secretary has said he would support a ban)

what "right" will they be demonstrating that "the rest of us" don't have?

PS

It is still iillegal for him to incite hattred.

If he argues the same case featured in his letter/press release then he can't be said to be doing that.


On a personal level, my instinctive reaction to him was that he sported the same arrogant smugness as someone like Nick Griffin.

My iinstinctive reaction to the protest in wooton Basset is to compare him to that other paragon of virtue and piety - reverend phelps.

The significant and fundamental difference is that Chaudary will not be celebrating the deaths of British soldiers, but mourning the deaths of Afghani civilians and highlighting what he believes to be the needlessness of the British deaths.

If he is associated in any way with Islamist politics (Islamism meaning extreme politicized fundamentalism) then I would be very cautious about his where hhe intends to go with it.

If on the other hand he remains consiistent with the views expressed in his letter, then whether I agree or not, there is no reason why he should be denied a platform.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:38 AM

As I've said in prose and verse, and have received so much flak for over the years, it's THE WORLD that should be multicultural.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:41 AM

When will the British people reclaim their country ? Try heading over to one of their third world countries and wave a banner supporting British troops. The British people are not going to take this crap much longer. The election in spring is going to bring a few surprises.

The Labour government has a lot to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:54 AM

The right of free speech.

But didn't we go in to give them free speech? Ironic.

We went to stop the training of terrorists. Looks like we just kept them in that country (by and large).

History has to repeat itself, no-one is listening. Afghanistan is a fight that historically no-one seems to win, even the rightful residents.

But I am a firm believer in dialogue (or more correctly duologue). If you can't talk to people how can you carry a message? Shouting isn't talking.
Silent vigil is eloquent. In the culture we have in the UK at least. Our soldiers are there for us, we must support them. If we don't like the fight, fight the politicians. But once you start these things you have to have the courage to at least do a half decent job, or the consequences are far worse than doing nothing in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:03 AM

Lox, a very astute comparison between Choudary & the dreadful Phelps. Both use a cloak of religious faith the incite and foster trouble. Cunningly, they both exploit 'free speech' dilemmas to garner publicity that is way out of proportion to the tiny minorities who share their views.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:04 AM

"The election in spring is going to bring a few surprises."

No - I shouldn't think so.

People won't be so apathetic this time after the European elections so there won't be any BNP.

Labour will lose out, but maybe not by as much as the Tories might have hoped last year.

People may say that they still aren't happy with the two main parties, but they would rather vote than not vote.

The Tories will get the largest share of the vote.

But I also predict an increase in the Lib Dem share.

The only question is: by how much?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:29 AM

Yes, thank you, I am well aware that many still preach hatred towards Jews and others...but what I meant was that all this liberalism has played a big part in letting evil in.

For so long now, people have been bullied into feeling they have no right to say "This is wrong and I totally disagree with it!" because they've lived in fear of constantly being called racist or facist...when neither of those is actually the issue at all.

We've fallen over ourselves NOT to risk causing any offence to others, no matter what they do, always choosing to put the alternative view forward, as in..."Yes, but they do have a right to this and that and everything else"...and the very people who've been doing evil, who are still doing evil, have been laughing all the way to the Politically Correct Bank, where they store their savings of hatred and plots.

The original belief of Islam was peace. It has been twisted and maimed almost beyond recognition for decades now, by those who seek to control, seek to take over the world, seek to destroy and it is way past time for the world, and the Good Islamic World to wake up and send them packing, because if we don't....................................................





>>>Lizzie,

"Where do you draw the line at human rights and freedom?"

You don't.

"If you take some of the comments in here seriously, then Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us, because his followers would have the 'right' to kill the Jews,"

Killing Jews is not a human right.

The right of Jews not to be killed is a human right.

See how it works?<<<<<


Gosh, yes....now I think I've got it! (said with just the merest hint of rolling eyes up to heaven.)


Sorry Lox, but if you take the extremist liberal views so often shown in Mudcat, then everyone would have the right to do everything.

They don't.

It is everyone's human right to be able to live their lives in peace and freedom...and that includes the women of Afghanistan. And if we all lived our lives according to that simple Right, there'd be no need for wars, no armies, no violence...

We have so much to learn...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:39 AM

"Yes, but they do have a right to this and that and everything else"

Not THEY, Lizzie. WE. The "liberalism" you blame for "letting evil in" exists to ensure that everyone in this country has the SAME basic human rights - regardless of how much money they have, the colour of their skin, or where they were born. Not to give one group more rights than others - that's your Daily Mail hysteria creeping in again.

I believed that Nick Griffin should not have been prevented from appearing on Question Time, just as I believe that, misguided as this protest at Wootton Bassett may be, it should be allowed to go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:01 AM

Pity that the tolerance shown towards these would be demonstrators, isn't extended towards those who disagree with them.
Or does tolerance disappear, when you dislike the person expressing the views, more than you dislike the views they express?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:05 AM

"what I meant was that all this liberalism has played a big part in letting evil in."

I see ... so if we had a totalitarian government, and if women and blacks couldn't vote, and if society was segregated and homosexuality was still illegal then the fascists wouldn't be able to sneak in?

Or n other words, the more liberal a society gets the greater the power that fascists have.

Hmmm ... I don't know why I didn't think of it before ...


"Sorry Lox, but if you take the extremist liberal views so often shown in Mudcat, then everyone would have the right to do everything."


Lizzie, you misunderstand what "human rights" are.

Human rights and "the right to do everything" are not the same thing.

To learn what human rights are, have a quick look at the following link.


Human Rights.


You will note that the clause "people have the right to do what they like" is not included anywhere.

You will on the other hand note the following:


Article 3
    Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

In other words, you can't do anything you like if it interferes with someone elses right to life, liberty and the security of person.

They come first.

So what do we have the right to do?

In the context of this thread, here is the relevant material.


1. "During World War II, the US government publicly adopted the Four Freedoms: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, freedom from fear and freedom from want, as its basic war aims. The United Nations Charter "reaffirmed faith in fundamental human rights, and dignity and worth of the human person" and committed all member states to promote "universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion".[2]"


2. "Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,"

3. "Article 19
    Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

4. Article 2
    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.


You may be surprised to discover that these proclamations are in fact incompatible with Nazi policy in WWII.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:07 AM

John, it's a debate. I, too, disagree with the demonstrators; the question is whether such demonstrations should be allowed to go ahead, whether they constitute "evil", and whether "free speech" is only open to people who hold certain acceptable views. I find the "if you don't how we do things here, leave" approach to be particularly reactionary and intolerant, not to mention that it shows a basic misunderstanding of British democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:08 AM

"Pity that the tolerance shown towards these would be demonstrators, isn't extended towards those who disagree with them."


Who are "those who disagree with them"?

And who is suggesting that they be banned from expressing their views?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Billy Suggers
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:11 AM

Eratum

"Followers of Islam are told to force conversion ...." ... OOOPS ! that ain't so.

For "Followers" read
Some followers of DIPs* who think they have the right to tell others what God thinks

And that goes for extremists in most religions.

*deeply insensitive prat (above)

Goodwill and peace to all, DIPs included, and long may the 'Cat be a platform for fierce debate, extremist liberals and the outright angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:15 AM

Indeed.

Britain is a democracy.

Britains constitution is based on the Magna Carta and has more recently incorporated a bill of rights into its statute book.

We value Freedom of speech.

That's how we British do things.

So Lizzie, as you so eloquently said:

"If you don't like this country and it's laws, way of life, and religious beliefs, then find a country you do like and bugger off over there. It's that easy..."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:43 AM

"Visit any forum expressing the views of British inter city folk for the real answers."

GUEST

I live in inner city London.

I am fully aware of my own views.



... but hang on ... you said "inter city" folk ...

... you must mean commuters on trains ...


Even then I travel by train from London to the north regularly so I represent that crowd too...

though I'm not clear on how democracy on the railways is relevant to this thread ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM

"Visit any forum"

haha

you mean visit the BNP website.

hee hee.


Hey - you must be the same guy that wrote to another catter saying that I was a known convicted criminal.


Only you don't know my name ..... or have any idea what I look like ...


so perhaps I'm not very well known at all.


ha ha


'Debating' with the BNP is like playing tag with a beached whale.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:51 AM

Well, Guest might mean the views of the Inter-City Firm...those were fairly obvious, and are currently informing groups like Casuals United.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:06 AM

If you think the views of the Inter City Firm were obvious how do explain Cass Pennant?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:18 AM

Just to correct my previous post, the Islamic smoothie I saw on Channel 4 News (UK) was quite definitely NOT the Mr Choudary pictured swigging booze on the front of today's Daily Mirror.

On the question of democracy, we should keep in mind that the US has given up trying to impose democracy on Afghanistan. (And whose wisdom determines that democracy is the best form of governance for such a country anyway?)

All that the west can do now is huff and puff that it will not give financial aid to Afghani departments that are led by corrupt ministers. In the end of course, even the corruption will be ignored, just as it is elsewhere around the world, if only because failed states are bad news. By which time the good people of Wootton Wotsit will have long since tired of turning themselves into a tourist attraction of rubberneckers amd the Islamic extremists who don't like the spectacle will have turned elsewhere for something to rail against.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:28 AM

One swallow doesn't make a spring; the presence of one or two black men in the ranks doesn't negate the obvious racism of football hooliganism.

Casuals United also claim to be multi-cultural. That doesn't make them any less racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM

I thought football was tribal, and not racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:59 AM

Well it won't happen as it will be banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:01 AM

"I thought football was tribal, and not racist?"

We're talking about hooliganism.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:02 AM

"I would LOVE to hear Good and Decent Voices from the true Muslim community condemning all the crap that is going on around them, in their God's name."

Well, they're out there if you look.
British Muslims for Secular Democracy

Quilliam Foundation

But not being attention-seeking extremists they don't tend to get so much press, unlike Islam4UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:05 AM

As I've suggested in prose and verse, club football should be REGULATED back to how it was - mostly locals in MEANINGFUL competition.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:23 AM

This is a curiously enigmatic conundrum. We are told that the British troops are in Afghanistan to ensure freedom of speech and self-determination for the Afghan people. Those who wish to stage the protest in Wooton Bassett appear to support the Taliban, whose aim is to repress this.

So, in effect, we have protesters demanding freedom of speech in Britain to oppose freedom of speech in Afghanistan. Those who oppose the march are denying the protesters freedom of speech in Britain whilst supporting it in Afghanistan.

Personally, whilst agreeing with Evelyn Hall's expression of Voltaire's principle: "I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it", I also agree with John Stuart Mill that: "freedom of speech does not necessarily mean freedom of action".

Or am I just being too simplistic?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:29 AM

Then there's Shakespeare in Measure for Measure: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: paula t
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:39 AM

I listened with interest to a Muslim spokesperson yesterday on the radio.He said that the vast majority of Muslims in this country are against this proposed march. He said that he agreed with free speech, but not when it caused pain and distress - which this group would cause.
I find it interesting that although I listened all day and watched the news later, I didn't hear this man's voice again. Too sensible and caring for the media perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM

Interesting point, Paula. I think it is distinctly likely that the highly iffy Mr Chouidary gets as much media coverage as he does because he slots so neatly into the 'raging Islamic extremist' template that sections of the British media want to foreground. In a single personage, he incarnates so many non-Muslim people's fears about extreme Islam that he is a gift to the press & the broadcasters. Alternative versions of Islam are so much less '''''sexy'''''.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:13 AM

"To foreground?"

Is there no noun that cannot be verbed [sic]?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:50 AM

Sorry John - I don't like that process much either, but 'foreground' has been around for a dozen years or more so I guess I caved in. I still can't stand 'to task', hough.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:08 AM

Or 'To parent'.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:19 AM

I don't think for one moment that Choudrey's procession will go ahead. The man is a cheap publicity seeker who seeks to poison relations between muslims and others.
And the BNP and other far right groups need people like him to get angry about.
What is interesting for me is that when he announced his march the BBC leapt in to give him 10 minutes of prime time radio on its main breakfast programme.
At any other time when the anti war movement announces a demonstration the march usually receives zilch pre coverage and only very, very limited coverage after the event.
Choudrey probably has a dozen supporters yet his publicity from all the media is extensive...it is as if the media can't wait to show the public that muslims are indeed the terrorist threat within.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:05 PM

No Lizzie, the reason women and children are being killed is because the US and UK governments are willing to accept "collateral damage" and if they have to kill women and children in order to kill their target, they're willing to do that. So if their target is sleeping in his house and his family is sleeping there also, they will accept the deaths of the rest of the family if it means killing their target. It's also because they don't always make absolute sure that their intelligence is accurate and they sometimes fire on the wrong target because they had bad intelligence. They call that collateral damage also and they're perfectly willing to accept that.

The Afghan people don't accept the collateral damage, and they don't want US and UK troops in their country. They have a right to not want foreign troops in their country. The foreign troops, on the other hand, have no right whatever to be in their country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:15 PM

It is everyone's human right to be able to live their lives in peace and freedom...and that includes the women of Afghanistan.

And yet, Lizzie, you are completely ignoring what the women of Afghanistan have said they want. What you are saying is that the women of Afghanistan have the right to accept whatever you want. Except that they aren't even getting peace and freedom. I still dare you to listen to the video I posted earlier in this thread. I expect you aren't willing to because you don't really care about what the women of Afghanistan want. You only really care about what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:35 PM

To all who think there's something wrong with supporting the Taliban (I don't myself, but that's immaterial), the Taliban are no worse than the Afghans they are fighting. They are all just as repressive as the Taliban, they are all just as violent as the Taliban, they are all just as extreme in the form of Islam they practice as the Taliban. The main difference is that the Taliban brought order to the country while the warlords who are fighting them brought only chaos. That's it. There is no other difference.

The UK and US are supporting people who are just as bad as the Taliban, and only for the reason that they can get those people to do their bidding. Not because those people will bring peace and freedom, or anything like it, to the people (in particular, the women), of Afghanistan.

Those who support what the UK and US governments are doing in Afghanistan are supporting people who are every bit as bad as the Taliban.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:58 PM

They don't head back to their own countries because countries like the US and UK have made people's lives in those countries a bloody hell, that's why.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:11 PM

What I find utterly despicable is sending women and children into groups of innocent people and blowing themselves up.

I get so angry that anybody could allow such a thing to happen, no matter what group they are.

All this bloke is doing is creating a bigger hatred to Islam from Uk citizens and giving the BNP all the ammo it needs.

Are we heading for a Jugoslavia in our country?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

So Carol, what would you have us do in Afghanistan?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:36 PM

I watched the video, Carol. Apparently the Taliban aren't as bad as the War Lords because they merely imprison them, rather than rape them, she said...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

Sorry, my darn compooter went wizzy again...

As I was saying....

In my book, they're all as bad as one another..and to support any scum who pour acid onto the faces of young girls is abhorrent. Ask *those* young women what they think of the men who rule their lives, Carol.

I don't want to hear it from some American reporter...I want to hear it from the young women who've been scarred for life, who are forced to wear outfits some of them loathe, who have hard, punishing lives....

And as Villan said above...the cowards who now use women and children as suicide bombers in war, are the lowest of the low, second only to those who store their weapons in the houses of families, knowing that Israel will target those houses to stop her own people from being killed...and then they'll get a bad press about it...

It's all a clever game to these men.   They don't give a damn about the suffering of the innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:56 PM

"knowing that Israel will target those houses to stop her own people from being killed...and then they'll get a bad press about it..."

Oh yes, poor old Israel - the innocent victim in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:00 PM

John, I think we should let the people of Afghanistan decide what should be done.

That woman is not a reporter, Lizzie. She is a women's rights activist who has spent time living among and advocating for the women she is speaking for. She has done what no one else has done, not even your government... she has made it possible for their voices to be heard. All your government (and mine) has done is cram our own agendas down their throats.

But as I said, you don't really give a crap about what the women of Afghanistan want. You only care about what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:06 PM

I think you mean, let the men of Afghanistan decide what is best. With no input from the women of course.
Don't you Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:08 PM

By the way, Lizzie, it has been established that most of the claims of the government of Israel that they were only targeting houses with weapons being stored in them have been shown to be false. And the government of Israel itself admitted that they were targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure for the purpose of punishing the people of Gaza and making them suffer.

You actually support the very kind of people you say you hate. You support people who kill innocent civilians, including women and children, for reasons that have nothing whatever to do with self defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM

Why would you say that, John? Please show me any post of mine that would lead a reasonable person to suggest that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:19 PM

Well that's almost certainly what will happen Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

>>What I find utterly despicable is sending women and children into groups of innocent people and blowing themselves up.

I get so angry that anybody could allow such a thing to happen, no matter what group they are.<<

Have you no comment CarolC or are you using the politicians way out. Just avoid it.

Its utterly despicable and there is no excuse in the world for it.

Do you condone it CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM

John, if you have read any of my posts in this thread, you will know that I am saying that we need to listen to what the women in Afghanistan are saying they want.


No, Villan, and I have said numerous times that I condemn it. But it is a response to imperialism and in the case of Israel, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide, so regardless of how I feel about it, it's not going to go away until the imperialism, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide are stopped. Stopping these things is the only way to save the lives of those innocent women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:04 PM

They were never listened to before Carol. I'm not sure you have got the right idea regarding the second class citizen status that most Moslem women have to endure. They have no voice, they are owned by their husbands/fathers, and they have no rights, under the laws of their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:07 PM

John, I suggest that you listen to this...

http://www.miptalk.com/?p=325

This woman is a feminist and a human rights and women's rights activist. She spent time with the women in Afghanistan listening to what they had to say about what they want. And she brought a petition back with here, with their signatures, that she gave to President Obama. If we really care about what the women of Afghanistan want, we need to listen to and take heed of what they have to say. Listen to the talk in that link I provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:33 PM

No good me or you listening to them Carol, we don't live in their country. What we think or say, doesn't affect their situation one whit

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

It certainly does if what they say they want is for our militaries to leave their country (which is what they are saying).

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:04 PM

"No good me or you listening to them Carol"

How can you possibly know unless you have heard what they have to say?

Its like saying: - no point in me looking in that dictionary, I don't know what any of those words even mean ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:19 PM

Rhetorical reply Lox. What I said im[plied that listening to them changed nothing, not that I didn't listen. Please read what I posted.

Carol, circular argument, it started with my asking you what will happen if we leave, you haven't answered the question.
You have told me what you would like to happen, I have told you it is unlikely to happen, given the status, or lack of status in that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:23 PM

Rhetorical reply Lox. What I said im[plied that listening to them changed nothing, not that I didn't listen. Please read what I posted.

Carol, circular argument, it started with my asking you what will happen if we leave, you haven't answered the question.
You have told me what you would like to happen, I have told you it is unlikely to happen, given the status, or lack of status of women, in that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM

John, please show me where you asked me what would happen if we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie - PM
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

So Carol, what would you have us do in Afghanistan?

Sorry Carol, I meant this post, which amounts to the same thing, almost.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:02 PM

You asked me what I would have us do in Afghanistan, and then you criticized me for answering the question as you asked it. My answer was and still is that I would have us do whatever the people of Afghanistan want us to do. I would go even further and say that I would have us do whatever the women of Afghanistan say they want us to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM

John MacKenzie and Lizzie Cornish are both displaying a complete ingnorance of how women think in Islamic societies. Many such women - I would say most - believe that women are inferior to their men. They actually prefer to shroud themselves from public gaze and feel comfortable and secure when so dressed. For them it is perfectly reasonable that a husband may have four wives (so long as he has the means to maintain four households.)

They see nothing paradoxical in a convention in Shia communities whereby any man convicted of rape is required to marry his victim. If you point out that such a requirement is likely to be abhorrent to the victim, they will respond that "she should have thought about that," believing that such victims have invariably contributed to their own misfortune.

Likewise many people of both genders in the middle-east regard democracy as an alien and suspect method of governance and are much more comfortable with (often royal) dictatorships. Thus there is a widespread view in the region that Saddam was a good leader. The logic behind that was a belief (albeit misguided) that his murderous excesses would not reach them,f and a majority did manage to live reasonable lives. They compare that with the alternative that has been thrust upon them - many hundreds of thousands killed almost indiscrimately, and relatively stable (and sometimes west-leaning) countries massively distabilised by the influx of displaced Iraqis. (In Jordan's case, for instance, more than two million have been absorbed into a country that had a population of less than one million.)

Such thinking may be a million miles away from attitudes that prevail in the west, but it is deep-seated and the west should by now have found better ways to deal with it than by waging wasteful and brainless wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Peter K, where do you get your information about how women in Islamic societies think? I don't think that applies in all Islamic societies. I know it doesn't apply in Iran, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM

"John MacKenzie and Lizzie Cornish are both displaying a complete ingnorance of how women think in Islamic societies."


Peter, for nearly 10 years I worked in Harley Street, back in the 70s, when the people of the Middle East had no hospitals of their own, or only a very few. The pavements of London at that time, were thronged with black. There I came into contact with thousands, (over the years) of women, of all ages, from all parts of the Middle East.   

From Princesses to Peasants....

I also dealt with interpreters, accountants, Embassy Officials of different countries.

I got to know the sharks and the kittens of the Middle East. I got to know a whole mini Middle East society.

I talked to body guards (with their guns) and to Heads of State, who would come to see us after hours....when we 'mere women' were told to remain in our office, as the Ruler of Oman did not want to see us.
Of course, I always made sure I walked straight into the waiting room, and said good evening to them all....

I bartered, I argued, I cuddled, I uplifted, I offered my shoulder to cry on.

I had Princesses giggling in my office, because men were outside...and I dealt with the deeply unhappy beaten wives, who spent their summers 'doing Europe' searching for the cure from an illness they didn't have, because the illness was the beatings they had to endure. Their summer appointments were their one respite.

I spent Ramadan at the Saudi Health Office, patiently trying to explain to the crooked regime there that yes, they did owe Mr.Phelps Brown well over £100,000 for patients seen in just a few months...and I rebuffed the 'You show me some honey, and I'll show you the money' request from their bastard of a slimey Chief Accountant....

I was friends with Bassim and Hisham who always looked after me when I disappeared into the Embassies...and I worked out pretty fast that the Kuwaitis were lovely people, as were the Egyptians...The Qatari's pretty much did as they were told, the Libyans were pretty darn loopy and papered their Embassy walls with Harley St. bills which they never did pay...The Saudi Health Office eventually rumbled their crooked accountant...and years later he was returned to Saudi, in disgrace...Dr. Juma Bilal and Dr. Solomon, both heads of the United Arab Emirates Embassy were also friends of mine..Juma in particular was a real sweetiepie, who went out his way to inform me that the Saudi Health Office were telling lies about the doctor I worked for..

The womenn called me 'Habibi' and loved the fact I wore kohl on my eyes...and we'd laugh and joke, or mop up tears, whatever needed doing in their lives....

I learnt also that most Arab men felt that most Western women were/are sluts...and treated them accordingly. I never flirted with any of them, never gave them cause to treat me with anything, other than respect.

And I still have the beautiful scarf Sheikh Assaf gave me, the Worry Beads that Mr. Ali Bin Ali gave me, which he held to his heart...

The women interpreters told me much about their countries, about their lives....

I have always loved people from the Middle East...and I got to know many of them...but I also know that many of the men think very differently to western men...treat their women differently....see women as belonging to them.

I saw the spoilt Princesses, doing their European Tours of doctors and hospital appointments, filling their days with buying Western clothes to wear at home, inside their palaces, or going to Harrods...dropping gold bracelets to the 'peasants' (me) from their grandfather, Sheikh Al-Thani, the wise old man of Qatar...

I watched the Arab women walking behind their men, hidden in their black outfits, their leather masks hiding all but their beautiful eyes...and how their eyes betrayed their lives....sometimes sparkling, but so often like Alice's Puddle, telling of never ending tears....

So don't tell me that I don't know about people from the Middle East...because I have a strong affinity with them...I held their babies, held their hands, held their souls, whatever they needed most.

There *are* some women who prefer to hide behind their robes. There are many who do not. Women should be free to be who they want to be..not forced to wear burkhas all their lives, or have acid poured on their faces purely for wanting to become educated..

May I politely suggest you also read 'The Prince and I' and 'Not Without My Daughter' for an insight into how women are treated in Arab society...

Inshallah...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:45 PM

"From Princesses to Peasants....

I also dealt with interpreters, accountants, Embassy Officials of different countries.

I got to know the sharks and the kittens of the Middle East. I got to know a whole mini Middle East society.

I talked to body guards (with their guns) and to Heads of State, who would come to see us after hours....when we 'mere women' were told to remain in our office, as the Ruler of Oman did not want to see us.
Of course, I always made sure I walked straight into the waiting room, and said good evening to them all....

I bartered, I argued, I cuddled, I uplifted, I offered my shoulder to cry on.

I had Princesses giggling in my office, because men were outside...and I dealt with the deeply unhappy beaten wives, who spent their summers 'doing Europe' searching for the cure from an illness they didn't have, because the illness was the beatings they had to endure. Their summer appointments were their one respite.

I spent Ramadan at the Saudi Health Office, patiently trying to explain to the crooked regime there that yes, they did owe Mr.Phelps Brown well over £100,000 for patients seen in just a few months...and I rebuffed the 'You show me some honey, and I'll show you the money' request from their bastard of a slimey Chief Accountant....

I was friends with Bassim and Hisham who always looked after me when I disappeared into the Embassies...and I worked out pretty fast that the Kuwaitis were lovely people, as were the Egyptians...The Qatari's pretty much did as they were told, the Libyans were pretty darn loopy and papered their Embassy walls with Harley St. bills which they never did pay...The Saudi Health Office eventually rumbled their crooked accountant...and years later he was returned to Saudi, in disgrace...Dr. Juma Bilal and Dr. Solomon, both heads of the United Arab Emirates Embassy were also friends of mine..Juma in particular was a real sweetiepie, who went out his way to inform me that the Saudi Health Office were telling lies about the doctor I worked for..

The womenn called me 'Habibi' and loved the fact I wore kohl on my eyes...and we'd laugh and joke, or mop up tears, whatever needed doing in their lives....

I learnt also that most Arab men felt that most Western women were/are sluts...and treated them accordingly. I never flirted with any of them, never gave them cause to treat me with anything, other than respect."
and you say you can build a new high speed railway for 33 billion.
can you tell me who will win the 3 .50 at kempton tomorrow.
you have five runners,here they are.
        43-22-        
Ajjaadd

b g Elusive Quality (USA) - Millstream (USA)

4, 9-13 (28) (Katy & Lol Pratt) (Drawn 2)
        

T Powell

S Drowne
2                0302-        
American Light

b g Statue Of Liberty (USA) - Break Of Dawn (USA)

4, 9-13 (26) (Tick Tock Partnership) (Drawn 5)
        

D M Simcock

M Lane (3)
3                        
Slap And Tickle

b f Exceed And Excel (AUS) - Common Rumpus (IRE)

4, 9-8 (Lucky Seven Stable) (Drawn 3)
        

S C Williams

W Carson (3)
4                63-        
Fair Passion

b f Trade Fair (GB) - United Passion (GB)

3, 8-7 (65) (Angie Conway / Whiteman Partnership) (Drawn 1)
        

D Shaw

Hayley Turner
5                3833-        
Texas Queen

b f Shamardal (USA) - Min Asl Wafi (IRE)

3, 8-7 (12) (Mr M Channon) (Drawn 4)
        

M R Channon

C Catlin

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:49 PM

slap and tickle, fair passion,texas queen,american light, elusive quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:49 PM

I recently engaged in an exchange of ideas and views with a Shi'ite Moslem on the subject of Iran who missed Iran terribly for the status and respect that women enjoy there.

I am not saying that Iran treats women better, I am saying that a Shi'ite woman thinks so.

The rest of our conversation was so interesting and honest that I had no reason to doubt her for a second.

Certainly I have met many young Sunni Moslem Women who are proud of and derive great succour from their role within Islam.

Many see western women as being slaves of vanity and victims of corporate social propaganda concerning how women are supposed to look and behave, both of which involve a degree of self abuse, both physically, emotionally and spiritually.


There are many Moslem women who would see Islam as being a route by which western women could achieve otherwise elusive happiness.


As carol says, it is important to ask people how they feel before speaking for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:15 AM

We have about 12 honour killings of muslim women every year in UK.
They are women and girls killed by husbands, fathers or brothers.
They would probably have preferred life, I think.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonour_1.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:36 AM

How many women in your country are killed each year by husbands, fathers, and boyfriends who are not Muslim? I'm guessing more than 12.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:42 AM

I notice the article doesn't give numbers for how many honor killings involve Muslims. You have just assumed that all honor killings are committed by Muslims, haven't you, Keith?

Honor killings are not a problem only with Muslims. Other groups do it also. You only hear about Muslims doing it, though, because it serves the interests of some people to spread hate towards Muslims, and those who need a group to scapegoat are extremely willing to help them do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:49 AM

Here's your answer Keith.



    "Domestic violence costs the lives of more than 2 women every week."



Thats more than a hundred a year.



Bloody westerners!!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:19 AM

Again, if you feel that all Iranian women are treated well, then read 'Not Without My Daughter'...or watch the film of the book, with Sally Field in. Read how the young Princess was stoned to death, purely for wanting to be with the man she loved.


The Stoning of Adulteresses (note that this doesn't happen to the men)


Yeah...lovely way to treat women, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:22 AM

Sorry, got my books muddled there....the young princess is in 'The Prince & I'....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:26 AM

No one can say that all Iranian women are treated well. But no one can say that all non-Muslim women in Britain are treated well by their non-Muslim British husbands, either.

But Iranian women don't have the mindset that Peter K describes as a general rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:33 AM

This is the kind of positive nationalism (with a stronger more-democratic United Nations) the world needs...

Poem 216 of 230: FOR PEACE

Reading of warred Afghanistan
    And its people's book, the Koran,
This bombarded generation
    Should, for peace, rebuild a nation
Involving one state/one culture -
    Living by the one native-law.
And, for peace in the Holy Lands,
    Three states bordered, for three faiths' hands.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:33 AM

Stoning of Iranian Women - Youtube


Amnsety International has caused for this to be stopped...

So, do you think the Iranians will listen, Carol?


We do not stone our women here, we do not treat them in such an appalling ways.

We, here in the West, are seen as equal to men. We have human rights, we are seen as human, in the first place.

I'm sure there are some very happily married, and treasured, Iranian women. Sadly, there are many who are not and they do not have a choice of freedom. They have only a living death sentence of abuse, from their husbands and from their community.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:36 AM

Lizzie ...


1. Your film isn't about Iran.

Looks like Somewhere in east Africa.

Interestignly It does clearly state that Stoning is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran as a form of punishment.

So stoning is cultural not religious anyway.

Not the best evidence.


2. your book ... the Prince and I ... isn't about Iran.

It's set in Saudi Arabia.

Again, not the best evidence.


Looks like I'll just have to make do with my testimony from Shi'ite women.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy 'Ginger' Galvin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:39 AM

There is a lot of truth in what you say Keith. I am just back from visiting family in Dublin and Tralee. When I was there the Guards dealt with the second honour killing of muslim women within three months.
When I was living around Manchester it wasn't uncommon.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:42 AM

The second video is much better thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:50 AM

It's not only women who have been stoned to death in Iran for adultery. Men have been too. The government of Iran placed a moratorium on the practice in 2002, and again in 2008 after a man was stoned to death in a remote province.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/2507499/Iran-suspends-execution-by-stoning.html

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:55 AM

Lizzie, all of the statistics I have seen show that the percentages of women who experience domestic abuse are the same for all of the three major monotheistic religions. None of them is any better or worse than the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:56 AM

Hello "Paddy"

Can you provide any examples of honour killings by Moslems in Ireland in the last ... say ... 10,000 years?

That should be a wide enough span for you to find something.

Perhaps a link or a citation?


Ideally not one from the BNP website (its just that we've had a lot of those lately)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM

Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims.
Mr. Choudry should leave from the UK. We aren't a Muslim country.
He must obviously go where he feels welcome, and at ease, and his beliefs are those of the country in which he settles.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:02 AM

Paddy also only focuses on Muslim honor killings and either is not concerned about or is unaware of those that are committed by other groups. Seems to me if honor killings are bad, people would be just as concerned about those that are committed by other groups besides Muslims, but apparently, they are not. Apparently it's only Muslim honor killings people care about.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:04 AM

Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims.

This is a popular racist lie. Anyone with half a brain can find out for themself that there is absolutely no truth whatever to this piece of racist hate mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:15 AM

"Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims."

This is a Roy Chubby Brown 'Joke/Observation'.


Paddy ... I mean Roger ... (woops) ... proves a point I made in a previous thread about Racist humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

Oh, come on, Carol...it's incredibly rare for men to be stoned..

Lox, I didn't say the first video was about Iran, but it is about what happens withinand because of some of the beliefs of Islam.

And yes, I know 'The Prince & I' was set in Saudi, but many of the incidences in there also happen in other parts of the Middle East.

It's a brilliant book, although sadly a true story..written by a German Nanny who went to care for the grandson of the ruler of Saudi...Written around the time I was working in Harley Street, when nearly all of our patients were from the Middle East, so I identify very much with so much of what she wrote.

When her favourite Princess was stoned to death for running away with the man she loved, it shocked her to the core of her being and broke her heart and she left Saudi feeling she could not live amongst people who would behave in this barbaric way. She was desperately fond of her young charge and had come to be very much a part of the family within the Women's Palace...but when she discoverd that Prince Mohammed had ordered the death of his beloved Mishaal, that was it, she left there and then, writing her book later. At the time it came out it caused many waves of anger, because it told the truth and opened up the world of what was happening over there....

Young Mishaal was taken to the village square and stoned to death. Her lover (whom she had loved for years, despite her arranged and lovelss marriage) was beheaded.

Prince Mohammed was left with no alternative but to order her death, as he knew there would be outrage if she were excused the punishment that many other women had been sentenced to.

What shocked her most was that Princess Moudi, who was the mother of Prince Saud (whom she called Susu), the little baby she cared for, so accepted Mishaal's death, stating that Mishaal had brought disgrace upon the family and had known what the outcome would be. And Moudi had watched her die, despite being so desperately fond of her.

Would the man have been beheaded if he had not run away with a member of the Royal Family? Who knows.......

I can only begin to imagine the terror that anyone must feel about being stoned to death, let alone the agony of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:36 AM

AsCarol says, there is no evidence of domestic violence being greater among certain ethnic groups (even westerners Lox).
Re honour killings, 12 may be the tip of an iceberg.
Police estimate at least 12 are dying each year in the UK but others will be hidden – forced suicides and murders made to look like suicide are widely believed to take place undetected. Women aged 16-24 from Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi backgrounds are three times more likely to kill themselves than the national average for that age and it is impossible to tell what pressures some must have been under. And for every woman who dies, it seems certain that there are many, many more living with honour-based abuse and hidden away in shuttered communities.
The full Guardian article is here.http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/oct/25/honour-killings-victims-domestic-violence
It makes clear that it is not just a Muslim problem, but all the examples given are.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:42 AM

And getting back to the thread title....


Taken from yesterday's 'Telegraph':



>>>>>>By Christopher Hope, Whitehall Editor
Published: 7:00PM GMT 05 Jan 2010

Comments 116 | Comment on this article


Link to this video The news came as fears rose of a possible violence with right wing demonstrators insisting that they would "defend" the Wiltshire town if the march was given the green light by the police and local council.

Local people also said they would blockade the town to stop the demonstration going ahead.


Related Articles
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Police called to maintain order at Al Muhajiroun meeting Anjem Choudary, the leader of Islam4UK, has caused dismay with plans to parade through the Wiltshire town famous for honouring service personnel killed in Afghanistan, with 500 supporters carrying empty coffins.

On Monday Alan Johnson, the Home Secretary, said he would support any request to ban the march. Prime Minister Gordon also declared he was "completely disgusted" at the "abhorrent" protest.

But Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), said he would be "surprised" if senior officers in Wiltshire seek to block the protest because any group has a right to march even if their views are "unpleasant and offensive".

He said: "Our view is we will have to deal with it, people have a right to march. People might not like it but that is the law.

"It can be the case that if you ban something it becomes more popular to turn up to. You then have a mass unlawful protest. It will be one that requires pretty clear thinking, but it is far too early really because all we have is the threat of a march."

So far more than 400,000 members have backed a campaign opposing the march on the social networking website Facebook in just a few days.

However a ban can only be enforced in law once the protesters have lodged formally their request for the protest.

Wiltshire Police assistant commissioner Mike Veale was meeting with local council leaders to discuss the march. A Wiltshire Police spokesman said no contact had yet been made from any group wishing to protest through Wootton Bassett.

Marches are banned very infrequently with just one order made last year in Luton. Prior to that the last march to be banned was also in Luton in June 2006.

Yesterday local people on the streets of the Wiltshire town reacted angrily at the prospect of the demonstration. They said it would taint the town's non-political image when they just want to pay their respects to the war dead.

Jane Read, 48, said: "I don't think it's right they should protest in Bassett. I'd barricade the street to stop them coming through if I needed to. All we want to do is honour our war heroes. They shouldn't be using the town for their own purposes."

Reg Hulme, 66, agreed. He said: "It would taint the town with bad blood. It's obscene and I don't think it should go ahead."

Another resident Alan Bennett, 65, said: "It's probably a publicity stunt." Sheila Pickett, 73, added: "I don't agree with it all. I don't see why they should come here."

The Union flag-draped coffins carrying Rifleman Aidan Howell and Sapper David Watson were driven through Wootton Bassett, in Wiltshire, for their repatriation.

Sapper Watson, 23, of 33 Engineer Regiment - a bomb disposal expert - and Rifleman Howell, 19, of 3rd Battalion the Rifles, were killed in Afghanistan in the last week of December.

Friends of Rifleman Howell, Steven Stratford and Pete Bell, criticised Islam4UK for suggesting Wootton Bassett as a venue for the march.

"If they want to protest they should do it in London against the Government, not here. Wootton Bassett is where the soldiers come back, all of them, as heroes," said Mr Stratford. Mr Bell said: "If they came to protest here there would be carnage."

The news came as supporters of the English Defence League said they would "defend wooton bassett from islamic extremists" [sic]. In a discussion on the Facebook website they said they would "not allow this to happen".

The group made a "genuine offer" to Mr Choudary offering to give him money to quit the UK and "relocate to a country (such as Saudi Arabia) that practices Sharia law. Britain isn't for you, you dont like it here, our western culture disgusts you." [sic]

There was also opposition from local Muslims in Wiltshire, with the Wiltshire Islamic Cultural Centre asking the police not to allow a planned march through Wootton Bassett to go ahead.

Mr Choudary said he would cancel the march if the Prime Minister accepted an offer to a televised debate with banned extremist Omar Bakri.

Mr Bakri, living in exile in the Lebanon, has branded British troops 'murderers' and said there was strong support for the march to go ahead.

Mr Choudary said: "If he agrees to that I will cancel the procession. Mr Brown can do it in TV studios in Britain to speak to Bakri in Beirut. If he really believes this is about the freedom of democracy he can have a debate about it."

Bakri, speaking from the Lebanon, said he would be happy to discuss the issues of Afghanistan and Iraq with Brown via a TV link up.

He admitted the Wootton Bassett march was a "publicity stunt" to drum up public debate about the illegality of the conflicts.

It also emerged that MPs from across the Commons have signed a motion urging action Mr Johnson and local authorities to prevent the march, which they said would be "a gross mark of disrespect to the soldiers that have died or been wounded".

Last night the council and local police said in a joint statement that no application to march had been received from Islam4UK.

A spokesman said: "It is the intention of Wiltshire Police to mount a proportionate response to any proposed march by any organisation.

"If the police reasonably believe that a procession may result in serious disorder, serious damage or serious disruption to the life of the community, the police may impose conditions with regard to the time, date and specific circumstances of the march."

However if these conditions were not considered yo be "sufficient to prevent serious public disorder, an application would be made, to Wiltshire Council, for a prohibition order. The consent of the Home Secretary is also required".
<<<<<<<<

Youtube Wootton Bassett interview

There is also a link to Gordon Brown talking about this on the Telegraph page, but I can't get the link to it to work properly...sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:43 AM

To keep to the point

I hope the protest is banned and that they kick that guy out of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:50 AM

Here we go, found the right link to it...

Gordon Brown criticizing these plans...

"I don't think there is any public support for Wootton Bassett to be abused in this way..."


Gordon Brown on Wootton Bassett - Youtube

For once, I agree with our Prime Minister...and having just listened to the prat on the other video I posted above, may I politely suggest that he, and all his followers, leave this country, as they obviously seem to hate us so much and go shack up with Bin Laden, for whom he has so much respect.

Thank you.

Over to you, Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:55 AM

There is a picture in the press today of Muslims at yesterday's repatration at Wooton Bassett.
They are a couple who live there, and they have joined their fellow residents in paying respect at several previous repatriations.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:01 AM

"incredibly rare for men to be stoned".... you should have seen me and Murdoch at our last home rehearsal...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:10 AM

terrorists come in all shapes and sizes,a little while ago the IRA and the UVF were called terrorists,as were the Tamil Tigers,neither of these three groups are muslims.
some people think that the American government are terrorists,they have certainly killed a lot of innocent peopler in pursuit of their aims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:11 AM

"incredibly rare for men to be stoned".... you should have seen me and Murdoch at our last home rehearsal... <<<

LOL, Ron. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:03 AM

Thanks for that balanced post Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:50 AM

"There was also opposition from local Muslims in Wiltshire, with the Wiltshire Islamic Cultural Centre asking the police not to allow a planned march through Wootton Bassett to go ahead."

And that is what we ALL need to hear...so well done to the WICC.





"Mr Choudary said he would cancel the march if the Prime Minister accepted an offer to a televised debate with banned extremist Omar Bakri.

Mr Bakri, living in exile in the Lebanon, has branded British troops 'murderers' and said there was strong support for the march to go ahead.

Mr Choudary said: "If he agrees to that I will cancel the procession. Mr Brown can do it in TV studios in Britain to speak to Bakri in Beirut. If he really believes this is about the freedom of democracy he can have a debate about it."

I think the words 'emotional blackmail' come to mind there....which is the polite version of how his words make me feel...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:04 AM

Perhaps Paddy Garvey could provide links to those Muslim honour killings that are "not uncommon" around Manchester?

The women called me 'Habibi' Oh dear Lizzie, I had assumed from your Mudcat name that you were female. (Or perhaps you misheard and they were actually saying "Habibati"?)

CarolC, women have generally been more exposed to western values in Iran than in some other Islamic societies, but even so I would be cautious about generalising. As one of your posts make clear, you are aware that there is a significant gulf between metropolitan Tehran and the rural provinces. I will respond to your direct question by PM.)

Lizzie Cornish, if it's Iran you were talking about, stonings are extremely rare whether of men or women, largely for the reason provided by CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:19 AM

CarolC, do you not have some knitting to do or cakes to make perhaps? That would focus your mind on more useful things.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:18 AM

Here you go, Peter, a few links you may like to look at.....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:46 AM

Thank you Lizzie. I see you have searched for "honour killings" rather than specifically muslim honour killings. I haven't gone through all those results you turned up on Google, but you need to keep in mind that the term "honour killing" is aometimes bandied around in the news media where it was never advanced as a motive by the police.

In the Arshad case for instance (one of the first in your Google link) was described by the BBC as a "so-called honour killing" - perhaps because of the catchpenny title they used for a documentary about the case. The honour-killing theory was, as far as I know, never presented in court but was subsequently speculated as a possible motive by police involved in the case. The prosecution presented jealousy as the most likely motive. None of which diminishes the monstrosity of that particular crime, needless to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:47 AM

Anjem Choudary is what we here would term a troll. Unfortunately the media, as we do here - myself included - has taken the bait and pandered to the sad little man's need for attention. Fortunately, as is always the case with the media, his glory will be very short lived.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM

The BBC and others refer to "so called honour killings" to distance themselves from the concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:58 AM

Yes, I believe the phrase 'so-called' is inserted by the media in order to emphasise that there is NO true honour involved in this kind of barbaric act.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 02:35 PM

Lizzie, it's also incredibly rare for women to be stoned in Iran.


Keith, the article you posted says this:

"This crime genre transcends every nationality, religious faith or group, nor is it unique to the UK, every country in the world has honour-based violence..."

So why did you think you needed to bring up the subject on a thread that is specifically about Muslims? What it looks like is that you are only using the issue as an excuse to spread more hatred towards Muslims. Do you only care about crimes like these when they are committed by Muslims? Do you not care about the victims if their murderers are not Muslim?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM

Over to you, Carol

I disagree with your prime minister.

Mr. Choudary said that it's the duty of Muslims to "stand together to prevent oppression and injustice to our brothers and sisters (in Afghanistan)"

-and-

"This is a procession that will highlight what is going on there and the real costs of the war."

And then he continues to say in various ways, that the purpose of the march is to highlight the plight of the people in Afghanistan, including large numbers of women and children who are being killed and maimed by UK and US military forces.

Please explain to me how these sentiments are contrary or foreign to UK culture and UK sensibilities, and please explain to me how moving to another country would provide him with a better way to correct the problems he is trying to bring to the attention of the people of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:07 PM

CarolC, do you not have some knitting to do or cakes to make perhaps? That would focus your mind on more useful things.

Mr. 3legs, I find it incredibly telling that you would consider it more useful to focus one's mind on knitting or cakes than on standing up for oppressed minorities. Is that a particularly British sensibility or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:30 PM

Carol,
       If Mr. Choudary and his ilk are really serious about "preventing oppression and injustice to their brothers and sisters" then they should hot foot it to Afghanistan or Pakistan and present their petition and demonstration there advising the offenders that they will continue to march and even stamp their feet until they get their way. That should put the wind up the Taliban!.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Dr.Quelch
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:39 PM

Good Morning Class. Are you all sitting comfortably? Good. Then here is the first lesson in euphemism.
You may take notes.

"Honour killing = Murder"
Did you miss that Jones Minor? Then pay attention.

"Honour Killing = Murder"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:40 PM

No, CarolC, Bonzo's idiotic comment does not represent a British sensibility. I cannot, as a British contributor, imagine what point Mr 3-legs imagined himself to be making; &, on behalf of all right-thinking Youkayers, I disassociate myself absolutely from its patronising, sexist tone (the only sense I can make of it is as some sort of variant of "Kinder, Kirche, Küche & don't worry your pretty little head over such matters!").

Not for the first time I find myself in the main in disagreement with you over many of the points you make; but I would not dream of responding in such irrelevant and unworthy terms as that.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:13 PM

Carol,

I think it is important to make a distinction in this case between two independant but significant factors.

1. The protest that has been proposed, on paper, represents legitimate viewpoints that are supportable.

With that in mind, there is no reason why anyone should have a problem with the March that Chaudhary is trying to organiize.


2. However, There are some pretty objectionable characters in politics who have the intelligence and talent for spin to justify their actions using apparently reasonable arguments.

In Britain, Nick Griffin and his cronies, including the BNP trolls (troll) who inhabit tha mudcat sewers, have a talent for pretending to have a caring rational motive for their thinking.


In the case of Chaudary, while I see that his protest is on paper a legitimate one, I believe he and his followers to be trolls of a different sort.

Rather than lying in wait under virtual bridges for unsuspecting internet forum users to pass by before provoing them, Chaudary goes to sensitive places with a deliberate aim of causing 'controversy'.

His protest will not have the result he claims to seek, but will instead turn British nationals against him.

The families of the dead will not listen to a man who 'appears' to be mocking their dead sons.

A cleverer campaigner would have thought of a better strategy ... unless his intent was to deliberately provoke and hurt.

I may be wrong, but that is my feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:30 PM

John from Kemsing, going to Afghanistan to protest won't do anything to stop women and children being killed by UK and US forces there. There is nothing Mr. Choudary can do in Afghanistan to bring to an end the military occupation of that country by the UK and US, or the killing of innocent women and children there by your government and mine. Bringing their plight to the attention of the people of the UK, can have an effect in the UK, because if enough public pressure is applied to the government in the UK, it will have to end its military occupation of Afghanistan. Is there some reason why this form of protest is incompatible with the culture of the UK? Is it un-British to be against letting your government carry on wars and military occupations in other peoples' countries? Are you telling me that you think your country has a right to do whatever it wants on other peoples' countries, and that it is un-British to express disagreement with this concept? If so, I find that a bit strange given the amount of abuse people in the US get from people in the UK about our invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Or are you telling me that protest is an acceptable form of discourse in the UK, but only when it is practiced by people who are not Muslim?


Dr.Quelch, is it also murder when Hindus do it, or is it only murder when Muslims do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:36 PM

Lox, I am willing to consider your argument. You have a lot of credibility on the issue of human rights as far as I am concerned. But the argument you made is not the arguments I see being articulated by most of the people in this thread. The arguments I see being articulated by most people in this thread is that Muslims have no place in the UK if they try to exercise their right to protest. Most of the arguments I'm seeing on this thread don't look a whole lot different to me than those one would find coming from the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:05 PM

CarolC
>>And then he continues to say in various ways, that the purpose of the march is to highlight the plight of the people in Afghanistan, including large numbers of women and children who are being killed and maimed by UK and US military forces.<<

Are you that gullable.

He is stirring the shit and the quicker they get him and his cronies out of the Uk the better for all Muslims in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:34 PM

>>>>Lizzie, it's also incredibly rare for women to be stoned in Iran.<<<<


If you say so, Carol....


...except Amnesty International know there have been 8 women and one man stoned last year.....

So that's nearly one a month...and that's only the ones they KNOW about.

And if you google it, you can find it all online.......here

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:42 PM

Well, Villan, given the amount of actual information that has been provided here in this thread, versus the amount of what looks like racist vitriol, I don't think it's gullibility on my part to take Mr. Choudary at his word. I mean really... who would I be more inclined to believe - people who sound like foot soldiers for the BNP, or someone who has articulated a position without resorting to any racist or hateful sounding vitriol? The answer looks pretty clear to me.

Lox and Peter K get the benefit of the doubt from me, but most most of the other people in the thread sound far less reasonable than Mr. Choudary.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:51 PM

CarolC, I never read such rantings in my life. If they love their country and it's traditions so much why live in Britain, it's not a Muslim country ?

You are a fine person, but my dear you really need to open your eyes to reality and see around a few more corners. Also, to say Lox has "credibility" well it gives us all something to laugh at tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:56 PM

Hannity doesn't give a shit about the women of Iran. All he cares about is softening up the people of the US to support a US attack on that country. That's what he does for a living. He shills for the military industrial complex. Ask the women of Iran how they feel about that prospect. They'll tell you they don't want the US to attack Iran.

In the last few years, stonings of men have overtaken those of women in Iran. We don't know the air date of that video you posted a link to, but it's not true that eight women have been stoned to death in the last year, so it has to be old footage.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:58 PM

Paddy, as I said before, they've fled to your country because your government has made their lives a bloody hell in their own countries. If you want to get them to stop fleeing you your country, you need to start putting some serious pressure on your government to get the hell out of their countries and stop killing their women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:10 PM

By the way, Paddy, I am assuming that Lox is correct when he says you are BNP. You should know that you don't help your cause by spreading hatred of Muslims. You're playing right into the hands of your government, who want nothing more than a good excuse to continue their imperialist agenda in the Middle East. As long as countries like yours and mine are in the Middle East making the lives of the people there miserable, they will continue to seek refuge in our countries in ever greater numbers. Time to get to work on your government, Lad! Tell them to end the imperialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:31 PM

No CarolC I am not a supporter/member of the BNP, You listen to what Lox says ? well you are the only one. He calls everyone a BNP member if they disagree with him here. CarolC, I am British and I respect Islamic traditions (in their own countries) all I ask is they respect mine. The British way of life is/was something I was proud of.

I was born in Dublin (father from Tralee) I moved to the midlands of England as a child, I now live in London. It's a mess CarlC, a mess. All I want is the values I grew up with respected. I want those nights when we played in Manchester bars and craiced with everyone, black,white,yellow, green and orange. You just can't give anyone a bit of stick these days without being PC.

CarolC, Britain isn't a country I know anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:35 PM

When people flee for their lives to other countries because war has overtaken their own countries, the last thing anyone should expect them to do is to give up entirely the traditions they had in their home countries. Of course they shouldn't be allowed to continue any traditions that are against the law in their adopted country, but whatever traditions they can keep are a blessing for people who have lost everything. It's cruel to expect them to give up their culture in order to fit in. As I said before, if your government is going to go into other countries and make it difficult for people to continue living in those places, the people of your country really don't have a right to criticize those who find refuge from your government in your own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:40 PM

CarolC, it might be useful if you looked online for some of statements and arguments emanating from Choudary on other issues and at other times. To anyone who has looked at or listened to debates in the UK media in the past couple of years, he is well-known as a seasoned 'agent provocateur' who studiously seeks to occupy positions that are guaranteed to enrage the majority of Brits.

I do not dispute that such rage often and quickly manifests itself in rhetoric that comes close to or actively adheres to reactionary & xenophobic thinking. This is what Choudary sets out to achieve. Have a look at some of his other interventions and tell me what you think.

There are many ways of expressing opposition to UK/US policy without voicing Choudary's standpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM

Is it just me that can see the irony in an Irishman, whose people were demonised and vilified within England (particularly in certain cities after particular episodes of bombing) because of the actions of a few extremist terrorists, and who only a few decades ago were greeted in English pubs and boarding houses with signs reading "no Irish, no blacks, no dogs", can hearken back to the "British way of life" he misses and was proud of?

Hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:51 PM

I'll have a look, Smedley. Are there any in particular that you think I should see?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:00 PM

Ok, I've had a look. I vehemently disagree with his agenda, but I find the kind of attitude displayed by a lot of people in this thread to be no better than what I've read coming from him. Pot and kettle.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:45 PM

CarolC. Britain is a small island. I respect the law and the traditions of this great nation. I do not like people coming into it and showing disrespect that is all any of us are saying.

What will be next, a protest at the Cenotaph on Armistice day ?

I think Merle Haggard summed it up well (Also proformed by "The Sisters of Murphy".

I hear people talking bad about the way they have to live here in this country.
                                                                  
Harpin' on the wars we fight gripin' 'bout the way things ought to be.
                                                                  
I don't mind them switchin' sides and standin' up for things they beleive in,
                           
When they're runnin' down our country man,
                                       
They're walkin' on The Fightin' side Of Me.            
                                             
Runnin' down a way of life our fightin' men have fought and died to keep,
      
If you don't love it, leave it,
                           
Let this song that I'm singin' be a warnin',
            
When you're runnin' down our country
You're walkin' on The Fightin' Side Of Me.


They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of livin'.


We love our country CarolC, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:11 PM

Well then get to work, Paddy. Convince your government to leave other peoples' countries alone. Because that's the only way to keep other people from fleeing to your country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:15 PM

And Merle has conveniently forgotten what was done to those who were living here in what is now the US before his European ancestors arrived. He's not really in a position to be singing songs about respecting the cultures of those who were here before.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:22 PM

I do not like people coming into it and showing disrespect that is all any of us are saying.

Where did he come from?

Actually he was born in Welling, London. He is a publicity seeker. Muslims condemn him too.

And Ruth is right. Ask Iany Irish people you know who came over in the 40's and 50's about the prejudice the Irish (who historically are by far the largest immigrants into the UK) received when they came over to build our roads and country after World War Two. Both because of their nationality and their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM

You just can't give anyone a bit of stick these days without being PC.

Our guest is evidently quite a comedian.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:42 AM

CarolC has compared some of the views expressed on this thread (and there have been others in the past) to those of far-right groups like the BNP. I am always amused to see the knee-jerk, "I'm not racist, but..." arguments borne of red-top politics and white-eyed paranoia that we see on Mudcat. My favourite might be "If you don't like the way we do things here, leave."

A friend posted me Facebook group today which has links to the English Defense League. Yes, they are racist. Yes, their politics are of the far right. Yes, they reflect a lot of what gets said here at Mudcat.

You who espouse this nonsense, have a look at this group. See whether the politics they espouse differ so very much from your own.

This is England? This is racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:36 AM

But the 'British' culture you want, dear BNP troll, is not one most people in here would endorse.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:46 AM

And I'm Norma Waterson's washing-up bowl

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

I see that GUEST has done a bit of research on me in the mudcat annals in a desperate attempt to find some clue as to who I am.

Dublin, Tralee, the Midlands, London and the Band "The sisters of Murphy" ... all mentioned in my posting history, but none of them giving you any clue about who I am.

At least try to find out what songs the sisters of murphy used to sing.

A good place to start would be to ask me ... I sang them.

And by the way, you really need to learn the Lingo a bit better if you are going to pretend to be able to speak it.

No Irish man has ever "craiced" or claimed to have "craiced"

Your posturing as an Irishman is so utterly unconvincing as to be completely laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:49 PM

Just in case anyone thinks my last couple of posts above make even less sense than I usually do, they were in response to a 'Guest' poster whose comments have been removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:17 PM

"CarolC has compared some of the views expressed on this thread (and there have been others in the past) to those of far-right groups like the BNP. I am always amused to see the knee-jerk, "I'm not racist, but..." arguments borne of red-top politics and white-eyed paranoia that we see on Mudcat. My favourite might be "If you don't like the way we do things here, leave." <<<<<

Sorry, but if I went to live in France, or Saudi, I'd not expect the local population to appreciate, or alter their way of life to suit my vision of how their country should be. I'd not demand that churches were built in Saudi, purely so I could worship there.

Years back, as I recall...Laings (the building firm) built the mosque in Regent's Park. Now, I may be wrong here, but....as I remember, the deal with King Faisal was that Laings would build the mosque over here and...the British would build a church over in Saudi...again, built by Laings.

One building was built.

Guess which one?

My friend's father worked for Laings in those days, in fact was one of the Chief Executives. He's no longer alive, so I can't double check the facts on it, but...having just googled, it seems that even to this day, there are no churches in Saudi Arabia, although apparently, they have been in contact with the Pope, with regards to building a church, but he has to recognise Mohammed first.

Don't get me wrong....I happen to love mosques, find them incredibly beautiful buildings, and often I'd drive past the Regent's Park one, on the way to The Wellington Hospital, to see our patients...There was always a huge gathering of people outside, often spilling out onto the road, stalls around to buy things...I'd sit and stare out the window, loving the beauty of that building...but the taxi drivers used to growl and mutter about how if they were selling things like that, crowds on the road in a busy place, the police would nab them good and proper...

If people come to my house, then I expect them to be pleasant and polite...and...mostly to come to my house because they like me, or love me.   I feel that way when I go to the houses of others.

The British, particularly the English, have surrendered way too much of ourselves....not only in walking away from our traditions deliberately, but also in giving in to politicial correctness and the fear of being called 'You f*cking racist!" if they dare to stand up and say that they feel like strangers in their own land at times, because their heritage is slipping away so damn fast...

I'm all for everyone keeping their traditions, the things they love about their own countries, and I'm sure I'd still make roast beef and yorkshire puddings wherever I chose to live, but I'd always respect the beliefs, laws and traditions of the country I'd chosen to live in..and if they had traditions that made my stomach churn, then I'd leave.


The English are getting angry...very angry, because for way too long they've been bullied and harrassed into feeling bad about themselves. They've had 'You Slave Trading Bastards!" imprinted on their brains for way too long, whilst having all that is good, decent and bloody wonderful about their country denied them....

Over and over we get The British Empire hurled at us, the Slave Trade...but what of the Good?

I don't feel guilty about being English. I LOVE being English, but I sure as hell am fed up with people who want to put my country down, or tell me that I have no right to my memories of England (are you listening, Joan) and that those memories are racist because they don't include The Notting Hill Carnival, but do include cricket being played upon the village green, whilst the church bells rang out in the background!

Those memories sit right beside darker ones of The Miners Strike and the hatred which has never left so many people, which divided this once proud and beautiful land..

I will never be bullied into apologisiing for my feelings about being English, no matter what lies are hurled at me, because I know that I am NOT racist...and that...at the end of the day, is all that matters, because I really couldn't give a flying Chicken Korma about what other people think of me.

I respect others, I simply expect others to respect me..and that goes for their countries and mine too.

I am shit fed up with Extremists though, particularly those who use Allah and the peaceful religion of Islam to abuse, to murder, to kill, to torture, to rape, to stone, to remove hands, to remove heads and..to remove hearts, because they are nowt but a bunch of lily livered bullies who have ruled their worlds for way too long, and no way are they going to start ruling mine.

So call me whatever you want to, but I am no bloody hypocrite and I will never join Folk Against Facism whilst it is run by a person who has gone out of her way to try to get others to hate me, who has spread malicious lies about me, even saying that she would buy anyone a drink who managed to pour a drink over me at Sidmouth.

That is the talk of bullies...and a racist speaks exactly that same language.

So fuck that for a game of soldiers...

And getting back to soldiers....I may not agree with this war, but I know how deep grief can be, and for this unfeeling, manipulative prat to use the grief of the town of Wooton Bassett and the far deeper grief of the relatives of all those soldiers who have died, often when they've been trying to HELP his people, makes me bloody angry! As do others, who, again in the name of Allah, seek to murder innocents and bring this world to a standstill in a way that has never been known before...and the longer we keep our eyes closed and our voices silent, the more shit we will be surrounded by, to the point where we will have no freedom at all.

Already we are watched, monitored and now to be scanned, almost to the point of nakedness at airports...because no-one has had the guts to stand up to the Politically Correct Emperors who rule this world with their blinkered vision and unjoined up thinking which has led us to The Land of Exploding Underpants!   

Gawd, it's almost become like a Monty Python Movie!

And the one thing that used to be uppermost in my mind, when I sat in those taxis going past the Regent's Park Mosque, was how lucky I was to live in a land where all religions are allowed to be worshipped openly without fear of recrimination, imprisonment or violence.

I still think that...and I also think that the Saudis, and Islam itself, has a great deal to learn from such an incredibly tolerant and welcoming country such as my own one.

But I also feel, very much, as I stated above, that if you don't like my country, then don't cause trouble in it, or put it down...just quietly bugger off out of it, to a land where you will feel happy.

Anyways up, I'm just off to eat a Flying Chicken Korma now...whilst some of you fall over sideways in rage, or spend hours searching the internet for 'facts' to lambast with me with...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:32 PM

But, Lizzy, you only seem to care about those kinds of atrocities when they are committed by Muslims. That is what makes you look like a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Carol
If anybody says anything out of place to your viewpoint, you think they are rascist.
Grow up and get a life FFS

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM

And what is this overwhelming emotional investment you have, Carol, it appears uniquely, in Islam — so that you feel impelled to leap to its defence if anyone so much as hints at any sort of criticism of the conduct of any of its members, or at any inconsistency in its world view, or any sort of misconduct or misgovernment in any of the countries where it predominates, or any attitude of any of its members inimical to the welfare of any of the adoptive countries in which they have opted to live? What exactly gives here? What is this peculiar relationship you have with this particular faith? And why?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:33 PM

My wife is foreign as far as the Uk is concerned. She has been self employed ever since she came to this country and works bloody hard, some 20 odd years ago. 90% of her earnings are from countries outside the UK. She pays to have the currency converted into Pds Stlg and spends it in England and where we live.
She abides by the law, accepts the rules of this country, pays her taxes and NI and doesn't and has never scrounged on this country.

Now, how many of the foreigners that come to this country export their skills and spend it in the uk and don't sponge on our society and don't try to enforce their beliefs on people born and bred in the UK.

Can you answer that Carol. I would be rather interested.

As I said before, this Protest should be stopped and these trouble makers should be kicked out the country. We don't need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:50 PM

The "mosque" story it is simply not true. Probably you couldn't find the cathedral supposedly to be built in in Saudi Arabia because it was actually to be built in Cairo. Had you looked things up correctly you would have found it.

The land for the Islamic Cultural Centre was given in Regent's Park as a gift from King George V and a donation of over £100,000 from Churchill's War Cabinet also a gift, for Muslims who had spent World War Two defending the British Empire.

Simple research Lizzie. Of the kind that you really ought to do before posting unsubstantiated horlicks.

I cannot imagine that your story of the cathedral in Saudi Arabia was designed to improve race relations between Muslims and British people. But like many of these stories against Muslims it turns out to be unfounded garbage.

Sorry, but if I went to live in France, or Saudi, I'd not expect the local population to appreciate, or alter their way of life to suit my vision of how their country should be.

But if you go to Spain that's exactly what happens. There are lots of expatriate enclaves where the residents try and create Britain and complain about the way the Spanish do things. I have often heard them say they have left Britain because of the immigrants taking over. They say this with no sense of irony.

But read a Spanish newspaper and you will see how the concentrations in some places have put enormous strains on the Spanish health system because of lot of the expatriates who go there are older and retired (as I was). And let me say the Spanish health system from my limited experience is excellent.

You personally might not do it - but lots of your fellow Britons do.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:54 PM

As I said before, this Protest should be stopped

Everybody apart from a few publicity seeking nutters agrees. Most muslims agree, most british people agree, the people of Wooton Bassett agree. That is an open door you are kicking at.

and these trouble makers should be kicked out the country.

Kick him out? Where to? He comes from London!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:07 PM

Villan,

"Now, how many of the foreigners that come to this country export their skills and spend it in the uk and don't sponge on our society and don't try to enforce their beliefs on people born and bred in the UK."

Eh?

What are you talking about?

1.

If someone earns money, they may spend it where they will. It is their money to spend.

Otherwise Brits should not go abroad as tourists.

And Brits who work abroad should not send money back to their families to avoid a case of double standards.

Perhaps you should first check out how many 'indigenous' businessmen are registered as non domiciled, and how many have bank accounts in other countries, yet expect full political rights and status in the UK because of their 'ethnicity', including the right to sit in parliament.

2.

Which foreigners sponge off our society?

This is unsupported anywhere.

3.

Which foreigners "enforce" their beliefs on people born and bred in the UK?

This is also unsupported anywhere.


I don't anticipate any evidence though, just a load of rhetoric about who you think I am.





Carol,

I am so tempted to try and answer MtheGM's question for you, but I don't and would not pretend to speak for you.

I would however love to read a patient and open overview from you on your overall political standpoint, referring in particular to your disillusionment with the US governments domestic and foreign policy and the connection by which it relates to your desire to counter the many lies that are told about Moslems.

I am aware that your position has changed radically over the years as you have become better informed and better able to research issues.

You will of course have critics, but there will also be many who will find your posts interesting and possibly inspiring.

Its a difficult order, but I would certainly be interested in reading such a post.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

Carol
If anybody says anything out of place to your viewpoint, you think they are rascist.

No, only the ones who scapegoat specific groups of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:23 PM

Carol
Nobody is scapegoating anybody.
I am against this protest full stop.
End of story.

Anyway I will go back to my way of life and leave you to it Carol. You obviously have plenty of time to further this cause. Got better things to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:34 PM

And what is this overwhelming emotional investment you have, Carol, it appears uniquely, in Islam — so that you feel impelled to leap to its defence if anyone so much as hints at any sort of criticism of the conduct of any of its members, or at any inconsistency in its world view, or any sort of misconduct or misgovernment in any of the countries where it predominates, or any attitude of any of its members inimical to the welfare of any of the adoptive countries in which they have opted to live? What exactly gives here? What is this peculiar relationship you have with this particular faith? And why?

I see you've only been around for about six months, so you are unfamiliar with most of my almost ten year posting history. Considering that fact, I don't think you are really in a position to tell me what I have or don't have an emotional investment in doing or not doing.

I am concerned with scapegoating, MtheGM. I defend all groups and individuals who are being scapegoated. If you see me defending Muslims more than any other group right now, it is because Muslims are being scapegoated more than any other group right now. Think about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:35 PM

Nobody is scapegoating anybody.

Villan, I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:37 PM

Now, how many of the foreigners that come to this country export their skills and spend it in the uk and don't sponge on our society and don't try to enforce their beliefs on people born and bred in the UK.

Can you answer that Carol. I would be rather interested.

What is the point of your question, Villan?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM

Follkiedave, you make a telling and pertinent point about the behaviour of Brit ex-pats in Spain. When in countries such as Croatia and Greece I recoil from attempts to draw me into ex-pat cliques in which people who are too lazy to learn the language cling together to whine about the food, the drink and even about local radio stations having the temerity to play the music of the region. All of which is tame stuff compared with the mayhem inflicted on overseas communities by Brit lager louts. And that in turn is dwarfed by the excesses of the British Empire in Africa and the subcontinent. (All of which was done to help those countries of course, with no regard for self interest.)

Lizzie, The Villan and others of the braindead who yearn for a rose-tinted past that never existed, might try reading the work of a Princeton professor, Bernard Lewis, of whom the (London) Sunday Times said: "No-one writes about Muslim history with greater authority or intelligence or literary charm." A good starting point would be What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response.

I realise I'm wasting my breath of course. The kind of ignorance we see in this thread can be achieved only by keeping minds securely closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM

I would however love to read a patient and open overview from you on your overall political standpoint, referring in particular to your disillusionment with the US governments domestic and foreign policy and the connection by which it relates to your desire to counter the many lies that are told about Moslems.

Thanks, Lox.

I'm against imperialism, colonialism, resource wars, wars of conquest, economic slavery, and all other abuses by governments and corporations against individuals and groups.

The governments of the US and UK are two of the worst offenders in this regard. At this point in time, it is politically expedient for both of our governments to promote hatred of Muslims so that the people of our countries will support the imperialistic agenda they have in the Middle East, which serves purposes having to do with money, power, and empire, but has nothing whatever to do with freedom or human rights.

When we don't stand up to this practice, we don't only hurt the people of that region. We also hurt ourselves, both in the form of terrorist attacks that we endure, as well as the money we pay in the form of taxes that goes to pay for this agenda; money that isn't going to pay for the things we need in our own countries, like schools, infrastructure, and health care. And that's not counting the spiritual and emotional costs, which are very high. In my country, we have a generation of young men returning from numerous deployments a shadow of their former selves, unable to cope with what our government has required them to do to other human beings.

When we don't stand up to this practice, we also create a reality in which there is no rule of law. The rule of law set down in the Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter, and other treaties and agreements becomes irrelevant and nobody is protected any longer by these agreements, not even we ourselves.

What I find the most striking in threads like this one, though, is how ironic it is that people in the UK criticize people in the US for being insular.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:03 PM

Some of my Anglo-Argentine friends think CC is totally bonkers!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:04 PM

What, specifically, do your Anglo-Argentine friends disagree with, Bonzo?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

"The "mosque" story it is simply not true. Probably you couldn't find the cathedral supposedly to be built in in Saudi Arabia because it was actually to be built in Cairo. Had you looked things up correctly you would have found it."

I never mentioned a cathedral....I said a church in Saudi.
Thanks.


>>>>History

1900 - 1930 Several efforts were made to build a mosque in Central London, including one, initiated by Lord Headley
Rowland Allanson-Winn, 5th Baron Headley
Rowland George Allanson Allanson-Winn, 5th Baron Headley , also known as Shaikh Rahmatullah al-Farooq, was an Irish peer and a prominent convert to Islam, who was also one of the leading members of the Woking Muslim Mission alongside Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din...
, an English convert to Islam. This project was funded by the Nizam of Hyderabad.

1939 - 1940
Lord Lloyd of Dolobran, (1879-1941), Secretary Of State For The Colonies, & former President of the British Council, works with a Mosque Committee, comprising various prominent Muslims and Ambassadors in London. Lord Lloyd sends a memo to the Prime Minister, in which he points out, inter-alia "only London contains more Moslems than any other European capital but in our empire which actually contains more Moslems than Christians it was anomalous and inappropriate that there should be no central place of worship for Mussulmans".

1940
The British Government is persuaded to present a site for a mosque in London for the Muslim community of Great Britain. On 24 October the Churchill War Cabinet authorizes allocation of £100,000 for acquisition of a mosque site in London. The intent was to enable Muslims in Britain to build a mosque and an Islamic Cultural Centre, so they could conduct affairs pertaining to their faith. The gift was also intended as a tribute to the thousands of Indian Muslim soldiers who died defending the British Empire.
1944
A Mosque Committee comprising various prominent Muslim diplomats and Muslim residents in the United Kingdom accepted the gift and The Islamic Cultural Centre which includes the London Central Mosque, was established and officially opened in November by His Majesty King George VI.

1947
The Mosque Committee registered the London Central Mosque Trust Limited as a Trust Corporation in September. At the time, seven representatives from six Muslim countries acted as Trustees.

1954 - 1967
Several designs were considered for the mosque. There were long protracted planning application to various authorities but the necessary planning approval was not granted.

1969
An Open International Competition was held for the design of the building. Over one hundred designs were submitted, from both Muslim and non-Muslim applicants. The design finally selected was by the English architect Frederick Gibberd
Frederick Gibberd
Sir Frederick Ernest Gibberd was an English architect and landscape designer.Gibberd was born in Coventry, the eldest of the five children of a local tailor, and was educated at the city's King Henry VIII School...
. His design of The Main Mosque Building Complex can be divided into two elements: A main building consisting of the two prayers halls and three-story wings including an entrance hall, library, reading room, administration offices and the minaret;

£2 Million of funding was donated for the construction of the ICC by His Majesty King Faisal Bin Abdul Aziz Al-Saud
Fahd of Saudi Arabia
King Fahad bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud, Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, was the King of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Head of the House of Saud as well as Prime Minister...
. Further donation was provided by Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan ruler of Abu Dhabi
Abu Dhabi
Abu Dhabi is the capital of, and the second largest city in the United Arab Emirates. Abu Dhabi lies on a T-shaped island jutting into the Persian Gulf from the central western coast...
and President of the United Arab Emirates
United Arab Emirates
The United Arab Emirates is a federation of seven emirates situated in the southeast of the Arabian Peninsula in Southwest Asia on the Persian Gulf, bordering Oman and Saudi Arabia. The UAE consists of seven states, termed emirates, which are Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Sharjah, Ajman, Umm al-Quwain, Ras...
.

1974
Construction work began early this year with the Main Mosque Building Complex, comprising Men's and ladies Main Prayer Halls, Library, Administrative Block and Residential Quarters.

1977
Work is completed in July with the total cost of £6.5 million. The first Director of the Islamic Centre was Raja of Mahmudabad. A special fund paid for a new Educational & Administrative wing which was completed in 1994. This was donated by Saudi King Fahd bin Abdul Aziz
Fahd of Saudi Arabia
King Fahad bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud, Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, was the King of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Head of the House of Saud as well as Prime Minister...<<<<<<




Whatever the history of it is, I distinctly remember Uncle Kelvin, who then worked for Laings, telling us the deal was that Laings would also be building a church in Saudi Arabia as well as the mosque in London, a sort of 'exchange'.   As I said earlier, Dave, Uncle Kelvin (not my real Uncle, but so close he was 'family') died a few years back...he had that terrible disease that Dudley Moore had, poor soul) Anyway, I remember sitting in the kitchen and hearing him tell us, but I can't verify the absolute facts, because he's not here to ask any longer, sadly, and I was still a teenager, so it was a verrrrrrrry long time ago, but I remember he was very excited about it. I think it's rather lovely that the Regent's Park Mosque was built by a firm whose owner had strong Christian beliefs.


And Carol, I'm afraid, whether you like it or not, it's the Extremists who are er..Being Extreme in the name of Allah who are causing the world hellish problems right now. I actually don't regard them as 'true Muslims' because Islam is about peace...but the more that the entire Muslim Religion speaks out, SHOUTS out about these murderous, controlling thugs, the better it will be.

I dislike obsessive fundamentalists, whatever their cause or faith.

Oh, and as you like to defend the scapegoats in our society, well.....seems to me that Christians are having a pretty shitty time at present, being made to feel they're odd and wicked, and many a nasty thing has been written about them on Mudcat, yet...you keep quiet.

Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:23 PM

And Carol, I'm afraid, whether you like it or not, it's the Extremists who are er..Being Extreme in the name of Allah who are causing the world hellish problems right now.

This is not true. We created the extremists, Lizzie. Your government and mine. And with every imperialist act we conduct in their countries, we create even more of them. They would not exist if it weren't for our governments' meddling in their countries. End the imperialism, and the Muslim extremism will melt away into nothing.


Oh, and as you like to defend the scapegoats in our society, well.....seems to me that Christians are having a pretty shitty time at present, being made to feel they're odd and wicked, and many a nasty thing has been written about them on Mudcat, yet...you keep quiet.

I guess you haven't read my posting history, either. I have defended Christians. I've even defended someone who thinks that the English culture is being obliterated, and isn't very happy about it, when that person was being scapegoated.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM

Hell, I've even defended you, Lizzie, when you were being scapegoated (which you are fairly often).

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM

Mudcat is always amazing. This story and thread has been up now in its fourth day, and today is the first day I've heard or read about it in US media, and I consider myself pretty well aware of important things.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:58 PM

Lizzie, that wa an incredibly long-winded way of saying "Sorry Folkiedave, I got it wrong. (Apart from the detail about whether it was a church or a cathedral.)"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:10 PM

Readers will have noted that Years back, as I recall...Laings (the building firm) built the mosque in Regent's Park. Now, I may be wrong here, but....as I remember,

here:Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:17 PM

has become three hours approx. and few posts later I distinctly remember Uncle Kelvin, who then worked for Laings, telling us the deal was that Laings would also be building a church in Saudi Arabia as well as the mosque in London, a sort of 'exchange'.

here: Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Lizzie - the church and land deal - whatever you or anyone else says was not in Saudia Arabia, but in Cairo.

I am fed up of doing simple basic research for you when you get things wrong. There is more to the world than Wikipedia.

Here is what you said "Years back, as I recall...Laings (the building firm) built the mosque in Regent's Park. Now, I may be wrong here, but....as I remember, the deal with King Faisal was that Laings would build the mosque over here and...the British would build a church over in Saudi...again, built by Laings.

One building was built.

Guess which one?"

There was no deal with King Faisal. It was complete and utter horlicks and trying to dodge out of it will not do. An apology to the people reading this thread for failure to do basic research would be nice. Not that I expect you to admit you are wrong.

Regular readers will no doubt expect as I do, wails of heartache from Lizzie how I follow her around contradicting the horlicks she posts.

This is a fine example.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:11 PM

This story and thread has been up now in its fourth day, and today is the first day I've heard or read about it in US media, and I consider myself pretty well aware of important things.

Then the US media have been suckered into it as well. It just took them longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:05 PM

Er....but I was there, talking to a man who worked for Laings, who had done all his life...and who was telling us about it. I just don't recall the absolute minutia of what was said, other than what I said earlier..

Still, I guess you know best, as always, eh, Dave?   Gawd, were you there? In Pinner? All those decades ago? I bet you were hiding in the broom cupboard, stethoscope to door, pen in hand, then you zoomed down to Northwood Hills Library to check everything I said.

King Faisal donated all the money from his piggy bank towards it.

It's a nice building.

Laings built Coventry Cathedral too...in Cairo, so I heard...Amazing!


Yes, Carol, that's true, you did defend me in the past, so thank you for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:05 PM

When caught out talking horlicks, Lizzie:

A) Apologises for talking horlicks.

B) Talks more horlicks.

Lizzie you have promised time after time to leave this forum. One day I suspect you may do so. Why not take the opportunity now?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

Lizzie - here is a sincere tip to help you in the future.

If you don't remember what someone said think carefully about posting what you think you might have remembered. And see if it makes sense. Do some simple internet research. Check things.

And then post.

On second thoughts perhaps not. You do have a track record of contradicting yourself. I seem to remember the record was within an hour. But I might be wrong. I could have been and hour and a half.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:31 AM

CarolC - I thank you for your reasoned and dignified response to my previous query. I appreciate that it is your habit to stand up for whomever you perceive as the underdog under attack whatever the situation, be they Muslims or Lizzie {for whom I too have stood up in my time - I know she can sometimes sound hysterical but I think she often takes an eminently sensible and defensible view - and as I have for you also, against some unworthy suggestions above by one Bonzo}.

I would, however, in this present instance, beg you at least to consider the following, which we have already differed about on another thread:—

You insist that all the violent Islamist intransigence of which we have seen examples over the last decade — 9/11, 7/7, 21/7, Madrid ... — are solely the result of US/UK officious imperialistic interference into the affairs of Islamic states, and that absolutely none of them has been motivated by any supposed Koranic injunctions to Jihad or Ummah; so that, if the interference by the West into Muslim affairs ceased, so immediately would the violence. I have said before: I think you misunderstand and underestimate Al-Qaeda's and Bin-Laden's intent on global Islamisation, and overestimate the truth of their ostensible assertions as to their motivations. Consider that the numbers needed to wreak havoc need only be very small (in the instance of this present thread, count them - ONE: and how very few were needed to destroy the WTC entirely}; and at least admit that there just might be a small but dangerous movement to establish the worldwide Ummah independent of the determination to remove imperialist Western infuences — and then, in the light of such mere adventitious potentialities, at least consider modifying your present resolute "defensive·of·all·of·Islam·whilst·it·remains·under·attack" stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:44 AM

Well, for one thing, MtheGM, I have not ever defended extremist Muslims, or Muslim terrorists.

I disagree with even the idea that it would be possible for extremist Muslims to be able to spread global Islamisization through acts of terror. Although I have asked, you have yet to explain to me how this could possibly be done. How would it work, MtheGM?

Wreaking havoc is one thing. Imposing a political or religious order is something else entirely. As I said on the other thread, the leaders of al Qaeda themselves have stated many times that the purpose of their acts of terrorism is to scare the people of imperialist countries into pressuring their governments into withdrawing from Muslim countries. bin Laden himself has said this many times, for instance:


"A reaction might take place as a result of the US government's hitting Muslim civilians and executing more than 600,000 Muslim children in Iraq by preventing food and medicine from reaching them. So, the US is responsible for any reaction, because it extended its war against troops to civilians." -- 1997

"If the American government is serious about avoiding explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims." -- 1997

"Acquiring weapons for the defense of Muslims is a religious duty. If I have indeed acquired these weapons, then I thank God for enabling me to do so. And if I seek to acquire these weapons, I am carrying out a duty. It would be a sin for Muslims not to try to possess the weapons that would prevent the infidels from inflicting harm on Muslims." -- 1998

"We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal, whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land [Palestine]." -- 1997

"We, God willing, will continue to fight you and will continue martyrdom operations inside and outside the United States until you abandon your oppression and foolish acts." -- 2003

"Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential candidate John] Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands and each state which does not harm our security will remain safe." -- 2004


Let me repeat that last one:

"each state which does not harm our security will remain safe"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:35 AM

"spread global Islamisization through acts of terror. Although I have asked, you have yet to explain to me how this could possibly be done. How would it work, MtheGM?"

I expect that their first goal is to cause a breakdown of society in target countries.
Many people here have stopped going to work just because of snow and ice.
A sustained series of attacks on our trains and underground would have a similar effect.
Intercommunity violence could easily get out of control.
Contaminating a few city centres would devastate commerce.
They must be trying to get a nuclear device. Maybe just a big crude job in an iso container (thousands of them enter unsearched every day). Just announcing they have such a thing would cause panic in cities.
Just a paranoid nightmare fantasy perhaps, but you did ask how it could be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:41 AM

Yes but, even if we grant that they could break down the order in our societies (which I would say is far from being a sure bet), how would they then impose their religion on us? They would have to be able to then create and then impose their own order. How would they do this?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:52 AM

==I disagree with even the idea that it would be possible for extremist Muslims to be able to spread global Islamisization through acts of terror. Although I have asked, you have yet to explain to me how this could possibly be done. How would it work, MtheGM?===

I didn't venture any opinion as to whether such efforts would succeed, or 'work', Carol. My point is that there are those among the Islamist movement who will continue to hope it will work. I simply make the point, which it seems to me you are wilfully ignoring and discounting, that if there be, as I and many others believe, even a quite small number of committed 'Ummah-ists', if I might be permitted the term, among the global Islamist community, they could cause a great deal of trouble and grief and mayhem and destruction to a whole lot of people. It might not be irrelevant here to remind you of the death of one of Rushdie's overseas publishers, his own being driven into hiding, the ditto of the Danish cartoonist on whose life another attempt was made just the other day... There is a small but prominent and vociferous element in Islamism whose motivations are entirely aggressive and incontinent, and inimical to the interests of the rest of the world, to whose existence you seem to be wilfully blinding yourself. Because it doesn't fit in with your agenda that Muslims who just want to be left alone and who will stop their truculence as soon as they are, are the present victims in need of your support contra mundi, you choose to remain blind to the fact that there are Islamists whose motivations are less pure and more destructive to the way of life of those whom they persist in regarding as the Infidel standing in the way of the Prophet's enlightenment, whose enjoyment by all of us is their ultimate aim. I say again, if you persist in this head-in-sand attitude of yours, I predict that some rude shocks await you.

If you choose to respond to this I shall, in courtesy, read what you say; but shall probably not rejoin again as this is becoming repetitious: I shall not, however, alter my opinion as to the obstinacy of your attitudes as rubricated above. So you may have the last word if you wish — & much good may it do you.

With regards - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 04:15 AM

Other than to point out that Anjem Choudary is the real life equivalent of troll I have not been tempted to enter this discussion but, against my better judgement, I would like to add something.

Surely this is not, or should not, be about Moslems, Christians, Imperialism or any such. Is it not about a specific protest and whether it is right or not? Whatver the cause? My own two penn'orth is that the idiot suggesting it should be allowed to go ahead and a) See if he can get 500 coffins and people to carry them; b) see if the people of Wooten Bassett then support him and c) Ensure a press and media boycott of the event. It will, hopefuly, cost him or his organisation a lot of money for no gain.

I don't think that many people here (there are exceptions) are being racist or Islamaphobic. They just view that suggested protest as, at best, tasteless and, at worst, hurtful to those who have lost people in the war. I think it is not disimmilar to the two young men who have been arrested and tried recently for public order offences for urinating on war memorials. If Mr Choudary's protest does not break any laws, fair enough. If it does, treat him or his supporters no differently to anyone else.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 04:54 AM

Anjem Choudary lives on 28,000 pounds state benefit. He is one of thousands of Islamic scroungers currently living in "Soft touch" Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:14 AM

For what it's worth, I think the people who want to organise this demonstration have a point of view and they have a right to express it. I hope that having done so they will reflect on the fact that they live in a country where they enjoy that right.

If I lived in Wooton Bassett I would want anyone from outside the town to stay away (especially the BNP) and I would be tempted to silently line the streets in exactly the way they do when the troops are brought home - except perhaps with their backs turned.

This will pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:21 AM

Anjem Choudary lives on 28,000 pounds state benefit. He is one of thousands of Islamic scroungers currently living in "Soft touch" Britain.

Actually he lives on £25,740 benefits of which £15,600 is housing benefits. All of which as a British citizen he is entitled to. On what grounds are you suggesting he should not be entitled to it?

And anyone who has ever tried to get benefits knows they are not as easy to obtain as the words "soft touch" imply.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:23 AM

~If a mudcat elf happens to see that - the first paragraph is the one in italics only.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:27 AM

"They must be trying to get a nuclear device"quote..
and who sells them the nuclear weapons , western capitalists,.
one thing I will say for islam is that they have a set of moral values,Idont agree with a lot of them.
the problem with the capitaistic west, is that it worships mamman, and is happily prepared to sell islamic countries nuclear weapons,to further their own cause,they[the capitalists] only have themselves to blame,by being completely amoral.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:35 AM

Is it true that Mr. Choudrey is a qualified solicitor?
If so, can it be so hard to find work?

Are you sure that there is a trade in nuclear weapons GSF?
Any examples of a buyer or a seller?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:04 AM

From Wiki:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Anjem Choudary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leader of Islam4UK

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Born 1967
Welling, London, England
Nationality British
Spouse(s) Rubana Akhtar
Residence Ilford, London, England
Religion Islam
Anjem Choudary (born 1967) is a British former solicitor, and the spokesman for the Islamist group Islam4UK. He is married, has four children, and lives in Ilford, London.

[lengthy copy-paste deleted. see link. -Joe Offer-]

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:18 AM

Choudary talking about the English Defence League and saying how the flag of Islam will one day fly over 10 Downing Street:

Choudary's Views and how Islam will cure all...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:13 AM

Lazy and indiscriminate cutting and pasting on a scale such as we see from Lizzie Cornish above, in a BS thread, from a source that anyone in the world can edit to their heart's content, is an abuse of Mudcat. According to the guidelines the last time I checked, a simple link should be posted instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:18 AM

Just a link next time, please Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:18 AM

Oh PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT!

Don't be such a twit. If you don't want to read it, just scroll by it.   Some people can't open links ya know..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:21 AM

That was addressed to peter, but smedley, you can share in the PFFFFFT too. :0)

Grow up, boys...and look on the bright side, they could have all been MY words! ;0)

Lizzie The Insubordinate (LOL)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:33 AM

"If you don't want to read it, just scroll by it."

The fact that you have just posted the whole thing and not identified any key phrases relevant to points and questions that have been raised shows that you haven't taken the time to read and digest one word.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Chris b (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:40 AM

This is going nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:49 AM

Pretty fast as well Chris B!

From the Mudcat FAQ - Posted without comment.

We also do not permit the posting of lengthy non-music articles from other sources. If they fill more than a screen's worth of space, post a summary of the article in your own words, and provide a link to where the information can be found. Although Mudcat is a music forum, we welcome discussions of politics and other subjects, as long as discussion participants use their own words and ideas. -Joe Offer

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:58 AM

The fact that you have just posted the whole thing and not identified any key phrases relevant to points and questions that have been raised shows that you haven't taken the time to read and digest one word.

And not for the first time!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:00 AM

Actually, Bully Boys, I DID read it, which is more than you lot have done, it seems..

There are those who post to Mudcat for correct reasons, and...there are those who just post to hound people.

May I politely suggest that you lot put your snouts up your arses and go hunt elsewhere.

Thank ooo.....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:30 AM

Actually, Bully Boys, I DID read it, which is more than you lot have done, it seems..

Read what? Obviously not We also do not permit the posting of lengthy non-music articles from other sources. If they fill more than a screen's worth of space, post a summary of the article in your own words, and provide a link to where the information can be found. Although Mudcat is a music forum, we welcome discussions of politics and other subjects, as long as discussion participants use their own words and ideas. -Joe Offer

Is there nothing you will not do to get banned from everywhere Lizzie? :-)

Good luck to you - Guinness book of records watching by any chance?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:39 AM

Some people can't open links, or some people can't be bothered to take a couple of minutes to provide one ?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 10:31 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave - PM
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:10 PM


Regular readers will no doubt expect as I do, wails of heartache from Lizzie how I follow her around contradicting the horlicks she posts.

See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 10:34 AM

keith a.
During the 1990's, the Arab states and Iran imported more than $180 billion worth of the most sophisticated weapons and military infrastructure available from both the Western and Eastern blocs. They continue to spend approximately $30 billion annually on their armed forces.
now I can see this does not mention nuclear weapons specifically,but I would be very surprised,if this not include nuclear weapons of one sort or another,[I would interpret the phrase most sophisticated weapons] to include nuclear,but please prove me wrong , by providing facts that show, no western countries sell nuclear weapons to muslim countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:01 PM

How could I prove a negative?
You made the claim,so come up with something please.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM

I must say, Dick, that it seems most unlikely to me that any western government with a modicum of the sense it was born with would ever issue an export licence for such a transaction as you seem to postulate here.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:11 PM

MtheGM, you are correct. We will continue to disagree. I maintain that when Western governments stop interfering in the affairs of Muslim countries, even the most extreme of Muslims will be far more concerned with what goes on in Muslim countries than in Western countries, and all of their energies will be spent in the Muslim countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:21 PM

Surely this is not, or should not, be about Moslems, Christians, Imperialism or any such. Is it not about a specific protest and whether it is right or not? Whatver the cause?...

...They just view that suggested protest as, at best, tasteless and, at worst, hurtful to those who have lost people in the war.

It could have been just about the protest itself. Had the disagreement with the protest been framed similarly to the way you have framed it above, I would not have posted to this thread at all. But it wasn't. The way it was framed sounded like it could have come directly from the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:13 PM

"The way it was framed sounded like it could have come directly from the BNP."


And therein lies the danger of the BNP, Carol....because many people are shite fed up in this country with feeling that the host nation has surrendered so very much, that we have become almost second class citizens in our own land.

You have to treat *everyone* equally, otherwise you create far more problems than you could ever dream of.

ALL of us in this country are as important as each other...and I have no problem with skin colour or religions, other than when religions are used by murderers and terrorists to hide behind.

Thank God, whoever your God may be, that the Mega Mosque in London seems to have been stopped from going ahead now..because even the local Muslim population of Newham complained about that one....

I'd post links and words to it, but some folks in here suffer Total Hysteria about that, sooooooooooooooooooo you can all look it up yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:16 PM

And if you have to treat everyone equally, then the profoundly unpleasant, misguided and provocative Choudary has the same right to protest as every other citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:26 PM

...because many people are shite fed up in this country with feeling that the host nation has surrendered so very much, that we have become almost second class citizens in our own land.

Are you fed up with this country, and in what way have you become a second-class citizen?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:28 PM

Well, yes, of course. So that means if someone's going to organise a 'profounly unpleasant, misguided and provocative' march, then you tell 'em they can't....

Problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:34 PM

"Well, yes, of course. So that means if someone's going to organise a 'profoundly unpleasant, misguided and provocative' march, then you tell 'em they can't...."

And that's free speech? What about the various causes you champion, Lizzie? Not that you seem to get beyond the ranting stage with most of them, but what if you decided to have a march to raise awareness of your inflated water bills, or your mother-in-law's bath handles, and people where you live found it "profoundly unpleasant, misguided and provocative" - should you be allowed to go ahead?

Or is it a case of one rule for you, and another for people with whom you disagree?

Please provide evidence for the ways in which you have become a second-class citizen in your country, and real (not fabricated by tabloids) examples of Muslims and other immigrants receiving rights and privileges that you do not.


"And therein lies the danger of the BNP, Carol...."

What - that it turns out that they think like you? No - there lies the danger of buying into the white-eyed paranoia of the tabloids, who whip up hysteria to sell their papers to gullible morons, who then base their political "views" on misinformation and outright lies. You may find that you're keeping some pretty nasty bedfellows.

But this is what comes of not fundamentally understanding the principles of free speech or the basic tenets of British democracy. Oh, the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:54 PM

yawnnnnnnnnnnn.....



Well, this is kinda nice...but if those lads had to wear a full body burkha on a hot day, I bet they'd be complainin' like hell....

Queens of Islam

Now even though I've reached an age and er...a shape...where a full body burkha seems one helluva great idea, I still worry about any religous zealots who feel they have a divine right to insist that I had no choice BUT to wear one..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM

Anjem Choudary is a crank with a couple of dozen of crank supporters. He runs a website that makes claims that Islam4UK is some sort of "organisation" - it is not. It is just Choudary.

He is media savvy and the media just love to lap up everything he has to say. Note that the muslim residents of Wootton Bassett who turn out to honour the dead get only a footnote in the column-miles dedicated to this subject - and it took Keith A of H to notice it and bring it here!

Lizzie and others. You are as damned stupid and malicious as are the press organs that grind this tired old crap out time after time. Choudary is a non-story that appeals to some people's baser instincts and the reactions of Lizzie et al tell us more about their dark sides than anything else.

Why should the 200,000 or so peaceful Muslims in this country have to flagellate themselves and beg for Cornish mercy every time a crank like this pipes up? It's as crazy as suggesting that every Brit or Yank should commit harakiri for the mass murdering lawlessnes of Blair and Bush.

Get a grip people, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM

"I still worry about any religous zealots who feel they have a divine right to insist that I had no choice BUT to wear one.."

But who is insisting that you should? No one is.

Many Muslim women say that they enjoy the freedom from vanity and body fascism which comes of not having to conform to western ideas of how women ought to look and dress. Personally, I don't think there's anything more depressing, twisted or oppressive about the burkha than there is about the increasing cult of cosmetic surgery in the west. Who are we to tell these women that they are being oppressed, when in our culture it has become completely normalised for women to starve themselves and carve their bodies and faces up in order to achieve some elusive ideal?

Who has created that ideal? Who has told women in our ever-so enlightened society that there is one perfect way to look, and that it is right and normal that they should mutilate their own bodies in order to try and achieve it? These concepts come from industries in which men call the shots and women are commodities. Many of the women who mutilate themselves in this way end up looking like side-show freaks, and for what? Like the majority of women who wear the burkha, these cosmetically "enhanced" women will also tell you that it's their choice to do what they are doing. But the pressure is clearly coming from various social and societal factors, and quite often from the men in their lives.

And look at the way that pornography has become so normalised, with top-shelf magazines now being freely on sale in WH Smith's and little girls saying they want to grow up to be Page 3 models or pole dancers. So are we really so much more sorted than the women who wear the burkha? Are we so much more enlightened that we can sit here and preach about them? I'm not so sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

Oh My! the contradictions of "liberalism"....seems they are all in danger of disappearing up their own arseholes!
Common sense and reason is the answer children.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:03 PM

Well, this is kinda nice...but if those lads had to wear a full body burkha on a hot day, I bet they'd be complainin' like hell....

Your cultural experiences must be very limited. Lots of men wear full clothing in hot climates. Including a veil.

Limited research again Lizzie. Not doing very well on this thread are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:40 AM

Anyway, if you ask those burka-wearing women in those countries if they would rather wear the burka or have their kids all blown to hell by US or UK bombs (in order to "liberate" them from their burkas), I'll be money they would prefer to wear the burka.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:01 AM

They would likely prefer neither.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:06 AM

You're not in a position to speak for them, 999.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:09 AM

I should rephrase what I just posted. No one except the women who wear burkas are in a position to say whether or not they would prefer to wear them.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:13 AM

And you ARE in a position to speak for them? Right!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:14 AM

"Anyway, if you ask those burka-wearing women in those countries if they would rather wear the burka or have their kids all blown to hell by US or UK bombs (in order to "liberate" them from their burkas), I'll be money they would prefer to wear the burka."


Those are your words.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:16 AM

Nope. That doesn't look right, either. As a mother, I can say that given a choice between wearing the burka, or having their kids blown up, most mothers would choose the burka. And if Western countries decide to wage war against their countries just to "liberate" them from their burkas, that is a very real possibility for them. But as someone who is not a Muslim, and does not live in a Musim country, I am not in a position to say how the women in those places who do wear them feel about it. And no-one who isn't in their position can really say how they feel about it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:17 AM

We crossposted, 999.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:22 AM

As a father, given the choice, I'D wear the burka.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:41 AM

And what about their female children having acid poured on their faces, Carol,purely for going to school?

Thank you, Dave, I am well aware, having worked in Harley Street during the 70s, that many Arab men wear long clothes. I have to say, that of the thousands of Arab men I *did* meet, I never met one wearing a 'veil' but...who knows.   Their faces were always free to the air. They also were able to choose if they wanted to adopt Western fashion whilst over here, perhaps even doing so in their own countries too, although I'd presume most didn't, as being covered in the right sort of light coloured, light fabric, long clothes is more cooling in the summer, but it is not up to any man to dictate to any woman what she should or should not be wearing, nor to punish her if she refuses to do as she is told.

There is a terrible culture of bullying within parts of Islam, I'm afraid....not just by the men, but by the fanatical women too.

If you read 'Not Without My Daughter' you'll learn about the Iranian women police who travel around in their vans looking out for women who are not suitably dressed. This happened to the author herself, who despite being American had to adopt the full dresscode, as she was living with her husband's family at the time. She had a tiny part of her leg showing, just above the ankle, where her gown had got caught up without her knowing one day, when she was out....She was put up against a wall and screamed at by hysterical women, brainwashed from birth to behave this way....

Yes, there are many cultured parts of the Middle East, with many, many highly cultured and intelligent people, but there are also parts that are filled with shitty control freak religious zealots who'd scare the hell out of me, because I know what they are capable of.

I learnt, a long time back, that many Arab minds function very differently to the Western mind.

When you brainwash children from birth to hate Westerners, as happens out there in some countries, then you have walking bombs, because that hate goes so deep that the child who becomes the adult isn't even aware of it...It's like they're hypnotised...and when the fingers are clicked, they behave just as they've been trained to...

And to those who will now scream "Racist!" at me, I am talking ONLY of the Extremists here...and yes, you also have complete nutters in other religions, because they are brought up, brainwashed in the same way...and few are able to break out of it...

"Give me a child until he is seven and he is mine for life" I think the Jesuits say.....

What you have to do is educate the children, but of course, you can't educate the female children, because if you do, they run the terrible risk of acid being thrown on them by the Taliban.

These people do not deserve to live. Anyone who could do that to an innocent child does not deserve to live, in my opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:58 AM

Well, Lizzie, the women of countries where that is happening, like Afghanistan and Pakistan, have said that they don't want the US or the UK to wage war in their countries. I think they are entitled to decide for themselves what they would prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:03 AM

What/which women have said this?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:10 AM

I've already posted (twice) an interview with a feminist and women's rights activist who has taken signatures of women in Afghanistan in a petition telling President Obama that they want our (US) troops out of their country. I have read things written by Pakistani women who say that want Pakistanis to solve the problems in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM

"These people do not deserve to live. Anyone who could do that to an innocent child does not deserve to live, in my opinion..."

And does it matter how many women and children Western governments are happy to eliminate as "collateral damage" in pursuit of them? If we're killing them, how are we any better than their "oppressors"?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:13 AM

And then there is the problem of the kind of track record the history of Western intervention in the Middle East has had. Whenever Western governments have gotten involved in the Middle East, the result has ultimately been greater repression rather than less.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:26 AM

'The Bookseller of Kabul' (Asne Seierstad) and 'Three Cups of Tea' (Greg Mortensen and David O. Relin) are good reads, and provide insightful, non-hysterical commentary on some of the issues raised in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:24 AM

Lizzie, what makes you sound suspiciously close to the BNP is your readiness to use phrases like we have become almost second class citizens in our own land. I know a few UK muslims who don't feel that at all, and certainly I don't feel it myself. But perhaps it wasn't "us" you were speaking for?

I'd post links and words to it, but some folks in here suffer Total Hysteria about that,

I think you have misunderstood Lizzie. No-one in this thread, nor anywhere else on Mudcat so far as I know, has ever objected to people providing links to their sources. Au contraire, the practice is positively encouraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:50 AM

where to start.
firstly Carol has a good point,frequently when western governments interfere in other countries they create or exarcebate problems.
In Africa western imperialistic countries created problems, by creating boundaries regardless of tribal boundaries.
lets look at the Christian religion, the catholic church has been abusing sexually and physically, for years.
the Christian religion were the aggressors in The Crusades.
that does not excuse ther muslim religion,but it puts a different perspective on the two religions.
KEITH A andMGM,Please google.arming IRAQ,A CHRONOLOGY OF US INVOLVEMENT,byJohn King ,march 2003.
it states quite clearly that Iraq was supplied nuclear, chemical and other weapons by various western governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:56 AM

and from a totally different source.
this.
Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.
        

Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein:
The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82

Edited by Joyce Battle

February 25, 2003
Print this page
        
Jump to documents

Washington Post "Live Online" chat with Archive Middle East Analyst Joyce Battle, "Iraq: Declassified Documents of U.S. Support for Hussein," February 27, 2003

Video Clip: "Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein," Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983. [Windows Media Video (WMV). Opens in Windows Media Player] (Iraqi television; courtesy CNN)
High Resolution (2.54 MB)
        
Low Resolution (734 KB)



    The Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988) was one of a series of crises during an era of upheaval in the Middle East: revolution in Iran, occupation of the U.S. embassy in Tehran by militant students, invasion of the Great Mosque in Mecca by anti-royalist Islamicists, the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan, and internecine fighting among Syrians, Israelis, and Palestinians in Lebanon. The war followed months of rising tension between the Iranian Islamic republic and secular nationalist Iraq. In mid-September 1980 Iraq attacked, in the mistaken belief that Iranian political disarray would guarantee a quick victory.

---

Lengthy non-music copy-paste deleted. See link above for full text.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM

Now, isn't it strange.

Dick can cut and paste vast amounts from a site and no-one bats an eyelid or makes a comment..but..if *I* do it, all hell breaks loose...

Weird, huh?

And *that*, peter is what proves to me that the hysteria is all part of the witch hunt..

And now, back to Wootton Bassett...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:08 PM

Is it on or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM

Yes, it's still on....

It seems the local police want it to happen, but the Home Secretary has said he'll back any call for it to be banned, if the police ask him.

Muslim Leaders condemn march........

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:13 PM

Give me a chance, Lizzie.

Good Soldier Schweik's cutting and pasting does indeed fly in the face of guidance in the Mudcat FAQs, and I am particularly surprised that he did it so soon after someone cited the relevant guidance.

Presumably Max is more relaxed about the practice than when the FAQs were last updated, otherwise a moderator would have taken corrective action in respect of both Lizzie's and GSS's blatant transgressions.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM

And for the record I think Dick was wrong to cut and paste a huge piece like that rather than provide a link.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:45 PM

my apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:49 PM

There is NO need to apologise, Dick. Don't give in to them. No-one has to read it if they don't want to, it really is that easy.

>>>And for the record I think Dick was wrong to cut and paste a huge piece like that rather than provide a link.<<<


Oh yeah?

Bet you'd not have said a WORD about it if I hadn't pointed that out!

Dick posted that at 7.56am....and it took you ALL that time, Dave..?

Come ON, you'd have been there INSTANTLY if that had been me.


And.....it doesn't worry or upset me at all that Dick posted all those words. Not one little bit.

Now, back to Wootton Bassett, which has seen enough sadness these past months/years, without having to have the possible memory of anger and hatred on their streets.

---

The one-screen limit on non-music copy-pastes applies to everyone - BUT if you post as a Guest, you're subject to full review and more likely to get caught. But eventually, Dick got caught and deleted, too.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM

OK, Carol, tell me this.....

WHAT would you do to make women's lives not only better, but FREE, in Afghanistan?

The Taliban stink.
The War Lords stink.

The country is ruled and filled with misogynists who are NOT going to set their women free....

So how do you help these poor women?

How do you get to them?


What do you do? Do you just walk away and leave them to these men who beat them, burn them, rape them?

Do you leave a land where women have to turn to prostitution if their husbands die? Do you leave a land where women have TWO rights, The Right To Pray (but not in the mosque) and The Right to Obey Their Husbands?

Does the West truly turn its back and leave them to their fate?

Yes, the millitary, the war, is causing even more problems, but when that is all over and done with, those poor women are left to the non-existant mercy of those bastards!

How do you not only educate the women, but educate the MEN?

How do you break this terrible cycle of hatred towards women that has grown out of a Holy Book??????

This video contains highly unpleasant pictures of scarred and burnt women, so please do not open if it may upset you, but just think of what they are having to endure, each and every day....
The Women of Afghanistan.....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM

HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM

What the women in Afghanistan have said they want is financial support for rebuilding their country and society and for funding their efforts to make their lives better. I think that's a good start. I think we should let them tell us what they want. I don't believe we help them by acting all paternalistic with them, patting them on their heads, telling them we know what's best for them, and then cramming that down their throats. Let's start listening to them and getting our guidance on how to help from them. I think they are perfectly capable of knowing what's in their best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:27 PM

Finally the last few posts seem to be hitting at the point that women need to be protected against men who seem to think that they can treat women as second class citizens.
To me that is a problem in this world and has nothing to do with religion.
In our house we are all equal. I have to say that as I have a wife and 2 daughters :-)

I am against the protest, but support womens rights, that are not influenced by what men dictate.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM

Are you willing to actually listen to the women in question, about what they want though, Villan, or are you, like Lizzie, of the more paternalistic school of thought that seems so prevalent in our Western countries, that the women in countries like Afghanistan are not able to make decisions for themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:43 PM

Oh yeah?

Bet you'd not have said a WORD about it if I hadn't pointed that out!

Dick posted that at 7.56am....and it took you ALL that time, Dave..?

Come ON, you'd have been there INSTANTLY if that had been me.

Well such a statement is easily tested Lizzie, you posted a long link precisely like that one.

Now point out where I said anything to you about it? Let alone instantly. As usual you talk a load of horlicks. Poorly researched horlicks. For the third time on this thread.

Like I said Lizzie you are not doing very well on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:31 PM

"Like I said Lizzie you are not doing very well on this one."

Ya know, you should maybe try living in Afghanistan, Dave. The way you talk to me and about me....I'm sure you'd find a few men over there who you'd *really* get along with.

FKOFUCF YWH TN'OD OYU......

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM

Well Carol, I am not prepared to listen to that guy.
Whilst I support womens rights, I have enough on my plate with my health and having special needs with both my daughters, I unfortunately have to look at our survival.
That doesn't mean that I am not interested in such issues.
If you can support such issues then that is great.
I am so anti BNP and am scared what damage they can do, together with such protest marches.
However what with the concert venue I run and my own family issues, its as much as I can cope with.
You may not believe this but I hate violence in whatever shape or form, that may be.
That doesn't stop me getting angry.
Les

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM

GSS, so Sadam DID have nukes!?
That is an amazing, history changing revelation!
What happened to them ?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:00 PM

Villan, I've already said I vehemently disagree with "that guy's" agenda. I have only posted in this thread because of the tone of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM

"HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace?"

The whole point is that it's a misrepresentation to suggest that Islam has turned away from peace in the first place. This constant conflation of the acts of a handful of extremists with the views of mainstream Muslims is ignorant, misleading and very damaging. You might just as well have said, 10 or 15 years ago, "How do you turn the Irish back to peace?" - when it was, in fact, a tiny handful of extremists who were responsible for the terrorist attacks.

This attitude and divisive language is what leads to further marginalisation and separation, not unity and not racial harmony.

Muslims condemn march

Young Muslims condemn march in anti-extremism rally

Muslim leaders condemn proposed march

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Carol
I think some times thats where things go wrong on Mudcat. We probably all have the same viewpoint, but are unable to express our viewpoints in a way that causes a group freindship where we really support the same issues.
Shame really.
Les

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM

FKOFUCF YWH TN'OD OYU......

FKOFUCF is usually spelt as two words. And in the TN'OD the apostrophe is usually placed between the "T" and the "N".

Can't you get ANYTHING correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:29 PM

@Lizzie HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace?

You people never fail to amaze me.

A handful of loons amongst 2 billion Muslims and some freak from Cornwall judges all of them to be the same?

Ruth A, just give it up as a lost cause.

Lizzie, if we are to judge you by your own words, tell us: In what way are you not a desicable bigot?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:30 PM

...or even a despicable bigot

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM

OK, everybody, settle down. Things are getting a bit nasty here.

And yes, the one-screen limit on non-music copy-pastes applies to everybody - but Guests are subject to full review and more likely to get caught.

Lizzie posted as a guest, and got caught. Eventually, Dick Miles got caught, too. If you feel the urge to post somebody else's words, keep it less than one screen - or post an excerpt or summary, plus a link.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:52 PM

I 'got caught'?   Come on, Joe...for heaven's sake....WHY are you giving in to them like this? Others post reviews, articles, whatever, and nowt happens.

I post as 'Gust Lizzie Cornish' now and then cos my 'cookies' have gone AWOL at present, darn things...


OK, Royston, as to you bigotted words. I tell you what, why don't you read my posts, and you'll find I'm far from racist, but totally hacked off with Extremists. However, until The Voice of the Two Billion starts to drown out The Voice of the Handful, this world will continue to be in deep shite.

At present, this world is being literally held to ransom by a minority of mad folks, who are hellbent on violence, murder and destruction, and they don't give a shit who they kill or maim, in fact...they REJOICE in the carnage.



'Ruth'...if you read my earlier post, you'll see that I had already posted a link to an article where the Muslim leaders have spoken out AGAINST this march.

I expect you missed it, in your furore to prove that I am the racist you *know* I am to be. May I, as ever, refer you back to your own words about me...and ask how the hell you have the gall to even raise your head in this thread, when your own actions and words against me have been along exactly the same lines as any racist.

And Dave....I have my own language, always have had...therefore I ain't bothered about joined up words or a'po'st'ropheeez. The message contained within the letters is what counts, I always feel, no matter the grammar.

The Voice of Two Billion should be making a noise SO loud that all else is drowned out. I don't hear it in the way I should...

It is way past time that the Two Billion reclaimed Islam, as Yusuf Islam has been trying to get them to do, for a very long time now. If there is anyone who can unite Islam in the right way, it is Yusuf..and he is being listened to now, and respected, by many of the major religious leaders of Islam.

I can only pray that they take his words and his message to heart, because, as I said way back in this thread somewhere, he is the only Islam for whom I have respect at the moment, because he preaches peace....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:01 PM

Yusuf's Journey to Islam - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:25 PM

"how the hell you have the gall to even raise your head in this thread"

The fact that you can continually compare yourself to the most victimised and marginalised people in society is merely evidence of how very little you understand what it is to be really discriminated against; it's also evident of your complete self-obsession, inability to keep anything in proportion, and total lack of self-awareness. You are aggressive and you post inflammatory, unsubstantiated and divisive rubbish. That's why I have the "gall" to post in this thread. Free speech, remember? Not just for you.

"I expect you missed it, in your furore to prove that I am the racist you *know* I am to be."

Well, you are the one who keeps banging on with things like "If they don't like the way we do things, they should get out of our country", "We are becoming second class citizens in our own country", talking about all the rights that immigrants get that are not afforded to the indigenous population, and asking questions like "How do we turn Islam BACK to peace?"


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:36 PM

Lizzie, exactly who or what do you think you are?

A nut and his willing accomplices in the media get you wound up.

You then lump 1.999999999bn others into your bitter little stew of prurient outrage and then, what, all those folks have to come and beg for your forgiveness? For something they haven't done?

From the links that many have posted here, it appears that all mainstream British Muslim organisations have managed to get their condemnation of Choudary into the public sphere. Still not enough for the twisted sister from Cornwall? What would be enough for you?

It makes a change for mainstream peaceful Muslim voices to get into the press - see Ruth A's links earlier this evening.

Guess what Liz, unless you happen to be a cuddly rock star preaching bearded peace - or on the other side, a mad bearded hellfire preacher - the media isn't exactly interested in you.

There aren't many column inches in "Muslim wakes up, goes to work, worries about the mortgage, goes home to his/her partner and kids and goes to sleep without blowing him/herself up" which is pretty much the default way of being.

You need to address your anger and bitterness issues before you start demanding behaviours from innocent others.

I didn't call you racist. I called you a bigot.

•bigoted - Being a bigot; biased; strongly prejudiced; forming opinions without just cause

Which is a pretty accurate opinion of and about you, based on what you yourself have said and done here.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 08:29 PM

I haven't mentioned any 'rights' that 'immigrants' get, actually. In fact, I haven't even mentioned the word 'immigrants' at all. But don't let that stop you spinning.....

I HAVE said that I'm sick of people knocking my country, and I stick by that. I also stick by feeling that if you don't like this country, then bugger off and leave it...and I don't give a damn what colour your skin is, or if you have religion or not. This country's people are kind, welcoming, generous and tolerant, even if we are run by prats, and I am sick fed up of being made to feel that if you dare state that fact, or complain about people who do nothing but say how much they dislike the British/English, then you're a racist.

Nope, what I said Royston, was that we are hearing the wrong Voice of Islam..and that Voice, at the moment, is putting this world into chaos....Time for other voices to step forward, bigtime and make it plain that no way is the rest of the Islamic World going to tolerate these murderers and extremists who are using the name of Allah to hide behind. There are many, many ways in which the Muslim Leaders can get their voices heard. Thank goodness they are now starting to jump and down with the rest of us about these Extremists.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit your image of me, but tough...and I don't live in Cornwall, but I can assure you that if I did, I'd find racism abounds, because many of the Cornish don't even start to accept anyone as belonging there until they've lived there for around 5 generations or more....and the Devon folks aren't that different in some places either, particularly Dartmoor....where you're regarded as a Grockle or an Emmit for many, many years, in some places, no matter how you try to fit in.   

I know. I live here. And I know many people who've moved here and to Cornwall too. It's a tribal thing. :0)

And in answer to you asking who the hell do I think I am? I'm just me, nothing more, nothing less. Too stooopid to rile people....too stoooopid to get people following me around the internet....too stoooopid to have the power to incense people....tooooo stoopid to make them think....so I'd not worry your little head about me too much... ;0)

I'm just fed up with the Evil in this world at present and think it's way past time for the Good Men and True to return, BIGTIME, because we have all walked away and buried our heads...and in doing so, we have let Evil in...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 08:33 PM

'Nineteen Canadian imams and one American have signed the fatwa to date.

" The Koran teaches us that we have an obligation to stop violence. We live in a non-Muslim country called Canada where Muslims and others live side by side, and this is our country, too.

"Our children are born here. Our future children will live here. That's why we have to oppose this violence."'



From a link posted by 3refs on another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 09:09 PM

"too stoooopid to have the power to incense people....tooooo stoopid to make them think..."

Yes, Lizzie, we all know how clever you think you are. The BNP incense people. The Daily Mail incenses people. The moronic trolls who linger on the periphery at Mudcat incense people. Pissing people off is not the same thing as making them think. It doesn't take brains or power - sometimes, as in this case, it just takes a lot of inflammatory language and an obstinate insistence on posting unsubstantiated and defamatory rubbish.



From Lizzie: "And therein lies the danger of the BNP, Carol....because many people are shite fed up in this country with feeling that the host nation has surrendered so very much, that we have become almost second class citizens in our own land.

You have to treat *everyone* equally, otherwise you create far more problems than you could ever dream of."


So what you're saying is that the danger of the BNP is that, when you hold bigoted beliefs, it turns out that your politics are actually quite close to theirs. Yes, that is quite dangerous.

The "host nation" has surrendered what, exactly? Despite your protestations above where you say you've not mentioned immigrants, does this post not imply that you believe Britain HAS surrendered these things, whatever they are, to people from outside the "host nation" - ie immigrants?

When I asked you for examples of what you have surrendered, and how you have become a second-class citizen in "your" own land, or for ways that people from outside the "host nation" have been given more privileges than you (thereby making you "less equal" on some level), you couldn't provide any evidence. Quelle surprise.

In fact, as many people have pointed out, Choudary (who was born in London, so he is presently in his "host nation") is merely exercising the very same rights and privileges that any British person would be able to exercise. By wishing to deny him (or anyone else who holds views of which you do not approve) this right, you are undermining fundamental British freedoms. Even if you disapprove of Choudary's ideology and approach (and I do), he is taking part in the great tradition of dissent, which is a cornerstone of British democracy. Instead of more ill-informed ranting in here, I suggest you go and read some Thomas Paine.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:37 AM

Well. old git, that was exactly the same guidance issued 60's to 90's in respect of IRA and UDF Terrorism. Reasonable people were at pains to remove the word "Irish" from "Terrorism" so that innocent Irish are not assocated with the acts of a minority of murderous, politically motivated criminals.

Innocent Muslims deserve exactly the same respect and courtesy, don't they? If you believe that they don't, what does that make you?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:51 AM

999, thank you for that..and to 3refs for his thread on the Imams of Canada issuing a fatwa against terrorists.

That is EXACTLY what is needed, right around the world, and now, hopefully, the REAL Muslims will stand together to take back their religion and make Islam what it should be, a peaceful religion and way of life.

'Ruth'....give it up, please. I ain't no racist, but I'm sick of bully boys coming over here to harm us, divide us, attack us, bringing their religious and tribal hatreds to our streets and towns.

Read what the Imams have said in that thread....and you will find that they have the same views as I do.....

So tell me, are THEY racist too??????????????????

Canadian Imams speak out against terrorists - The Article

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:56 AM

And still it goes on? Point about protest in Wooton Bassett lost, move on to Islam in general. Point about Islam lost, move onto Womens rights. Point about Womens rights lost. Move on to victimisation of posters. Point about victimisation of posters lost, move onto questioning Mudcat policy...

Can I suggest the next move please? What about all this bloody snow? It was never like this before the Poles arived. If they come into this country they should live with OUR weather, not bring in their own!

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:15 AM

Huge difference in stating that Islamic terrorists are not true to Islam and that the protest in Wooton Bassett is Islamic though, Lizzie. Whereas the former deplores acts of terrorism the latter lumps all Moslems in the same boat. Can you not see that?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM

Lizzie, I keep explaining to you, and people like you, how you are brainwashed - or as you yourself claim, how you are too stoooopid - but you all refuse to see it and/or refuse to act.

In early December there was a media hype about an Islamic preacher visiting Westminster University - Imam Abu Usamah

A group, for which I volunteer (Imaan) were going to campaign against this person being allowed to speak at the University, because of reports that he was a homophobic cleric who had advocated the death penalty for homosexuals.

However, we investigated first and discovered Imam Abu Usamah was featured in a Channel 4 documentary called "Undercover Mosque" which attributed comments to Imam Abu Usamah that pointed to the fact that he was a terrible homophobe.

There were investigations by the West Midlands Police into various allegations against several Muslims featured in the documentary. There was no evidence found to press any charges.

In fact Imam Abu Usamah strongly denied the claims made about him, and the Crown Prosecution Service's (CPS) lawyer who looked into the TV documentary that raised this issue in the first place said: "The splicing together of extracts from longer speeches appears to have completely distorted what the speakers were saying".
   
The CPS lawyer went further and criticised Channel 4 for "totally distorting" what Abu Usamah and others had said.

This then lead to the West Midlands Police formally complaining to the TV regulator, Ofcom, and the CPS was asked to consider a prosecution of Channel 4 under the Public Order Act 1986 for showing material likely to stir up racial hatred.

The Police were advised that there was insufficient evidence, while Ofcom said it also found no evidence that the programme "Undercover Mosque" had misled its audience.

CPS lawyer Bethan David, who scrutinised 56 hours of media footage, only some of which was used in the broadcast, said: "The splicing together of extracts from longer speeches appears to have completely distorted what the speakers were saying." The CPS lawyer also said that "To try and demonise the efforts of these people by taking their comments out of context was shocking."

Abu Usamah has said that he had been featured in the documentary as saying that homosexuals should be thrown from a mountain when in fact he was explaining that it was an opinion featured in some books, but it was not one he shared. This story can be viewed at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6936681.stm

Of course, its no small coincidence that the press stories against Westminster Uni occured in the same week that minarets were banned in Switzerland, and when a group of Muslim students who were leaving a prayer room were viciously attacked at London's City University with metal batons, bricks and fireworks. Several of those students were hospitalised.

So you see Lizzie, everyone - you included - needs to be a little less hysterical about this and needs to apply some independent thought.

The media lies to you. For god's sake, Channel 4 takes liberal, "cuddly" muslims and edits them into monsters to the extent that the channel was almost charged with a criminal offence.

What hope do "Real Muslims" have in the face of these onslaughts from the media and from people like you as their wilful accomplices.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:32 AM

And that piece of excellent reasoning and writing, Royston, should be the Final Word on this thread, but I'd bet a pound to a pinch of snuff it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:40 AM

But Lizzie, what you SAID was "How do we turn Islam BACK to peace?"

That doesn't imply an understanding that we are dealing with a few extremists who are giving the whole of the Muslim world a bad name. That implies a belief that all, or a majority, of Muslims is on a path which is not about peaceful co-existence, but about war-mongering and intolerance.

Early on in this thread you despaired that moderate Muslims do not speak out against the extremists. Since then you've been presented with example after example of the fact that they DO, but it clearly isn't an interesting enough news story to be reported in a way that gives balance and proportion to the whole issue. So maybe you'd like to retract your question above, and acknowledge that we do not need to "turn Islam BACK to peace," but instead have to find a way to accommodate all sorts of beliefs within this multi-cultural society. That includes many in the "host nation" developing a bit more tolerance, and not using isolated acts of extremism to justify their bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:08 AM

Lizzie, I keep explaining to you,

Royston, a number of people have been explaining things to Lizzie for a number of years. Welcome to the club.

This post has it about right.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: David el Gnomo - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:56 AM

There is always a final bit. She flounces off promising never to return to Mudcat again.

About a month later she comes back.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:12 AM

News just in. The controversial Islamic group which planned to march through a town where processions are held for dead British soldiers will be banned.

Islam4UK said it would stage an anti-war march through Wootton Bassett in Wiltshire with members carrying empty coffins.

Home Secretary Alan Johnson would outlaw the group as early as Monday.

It said comments made by senior members of Islam4UK and on websites breached the Terrorism Act.

So no need to keep fighting here folks !

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:18 AM

Thanks O G,

Or, as Muslims everywhere will be saying, Mash'Allah. It means thanks be to God.

But people, please take note of the media and bigotry issues, which this affair has exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:32 AM

I think you'll find I was the first to present an example in a link to Muslims themselves speaking out, actually, Ruth....sorry if that offends and yet again foils your plot to prove that I am a racist.

The good voices have been too quiet for too long, but now, it would seem...and especially with the Canadian Imams now issuing a Fatwa against Terrorists, that they are beginning to realise that their religion is being so deeply harmed by these Extremists.

The whole world needs to join in with annhilating this evil, be it suicide bombers on planes, or bastards randomly shooting Togo's football players. This terror needs to be routed from the world, but it cannot be done if people are told they cannot even mention the fact in the first place.

It is this silence, this fear of being branded 'racist' that has let the evil become stronger and stronger within societies. If something is wrong, then it shouted out about.

Royston...that is one example of things going wrong and being abused. They should have been taken to court over it. However, sadly, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the world is now being held to ransom by religious fanatics who are destroying the world, as we know it, by terror, in the name of Islam.

Let's take this down to a slightly smaller level.

If these evil bastards were members of my family, I'd not only turn them in myself, but I'd be doing everything in my power to ensure that the whole world knew and understood that their values, beliefs and actions, were *nothing* to do with me whatsoever and that I was the one most determined to have them handed over to the police.

As I said earlier...the Canadian Imams are saying exactly what I have been saying...and I realise that must upset those who seek to prove that I am anything other than what I am.

Tough.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:34 AM

"News just in. The controversial Islamic group which planned to march through a town where processions are held for dead British soldiers will be banned.

Islam4UK said it would stage an anti-war march through Wootton Bassett in Wiltshire with members carrying empty coffins.

Home Secretary Alan Johnson would outlaw the group as early as Monday.

It said comments made by senior members of Islam4UK and on websites breached the Terrorism Act."


Thanks be....to Allah and to every other God in Heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM

And in case anyone can't open that link of mine above, to this short article, here is what the Canadian Imams have said:

Twenty imams have issued a "fatwa" against any Muslim who would attempt to commit an act of terrorism in Canada or the United States.

Syed Soharwardy, an imam at the Al-Madinah Calgary Islamic Centre, who organized the initiative, said yesterday that any attack by foreign elements should also be considered a direct affront to the 10 million Muslims who call either Canada or the United States home.

"We want Muslims around the world who would dare to commit terrorism on our soil to know that we stand together with all Canadians and Americans.

"We are asking Muslims here not only to condemn terrorism but to also see these events as attacks on themselves."

Imam Soharwardy said he thought of the initiative just after a Nigerian man was charged with trying to blow up a U.S. airliner on Christmas Day. At that point he began calling religious leaders here and in the United States to join his effort.

Nineteen Canadian imams and one American have signed the fatwa to date.

" The Koran teaches us that we have an obligation to stop violence. We live in a non-Muslim country called Canada where Muslims and others live side by side, and this is our country, too.

"Our children are born here. Our future children will live here. That's why we have to oppose this violence."

Since the threats against Salman Rushdie several years ago, most people think of fatwas as death threats. But in fact, the imam notes, the vast majority of fatwas are condemnations or even non-binding directives that are meant to teach fellow Muslims the proper religious response to a given situation.

He said many Muslims he has spoken to say their lives have grown miserable and have suffered societal backlash because of the perceived association between violence and Islam.

But since 9/11, he added, it has become imperative for Muslims to vocally condemn violence -- even though they have no personal responsibility for those acts.

Muslims who live in this country should also stop fighting the battles that they left behind when they came to live here, he added.

"We are Canadian now. This is where our energy should be directed."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:51 AM

OK Liz.

I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree?

However, on the point you raise about the innocent turning in the guilty, it happens all the time - Like the family of the underpants bomber Umar Farouk Abdul Muttalab. They reported their concerns to the authorities who took, errm, absolutely no notice of them at all.

The autistic/aspergers chap that tried to blow up a cafe in Exeter a couple of years ago...concerns reported by his local mosque, not taken seriously again.

There are plenty of press reports with testimony from the UK security services that a vast amount of their actionable intelligence includes or originates from reports by concerned Muslims.

Liz you know absolutely nothing, and *everything* you say turns out be either a lie or just plain wrong.

Is there no amount of evidence, no number of dismal failures that would ever persuade you to shut up, go away somewhere that you can't bother decent folk, and take some classes in rational thought?

Don't start back-pedalling now "I was the first to present an example...Muslims speaking out for themselves..." when your whole point has been to portray those good folk as the excpetion to Lizzie's rule that all 2bn Muslims are to blame for what's happening.

Face your shame Lizzie, try to learn something from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:02 AM

Muslims, through the agency of their community associations have been campaigning against fundamentalism constantly. The trouble, Liz, is that the media don't want to report it - except in extremis, like now - and people like you just don't want to hear it - until it becomes an issue with which you choose to attack Muslims

Examples

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm

Try:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-gb%3AIE-SearchBox&q=mu

for 161,000 examples.

God, you're a nasty piece of work Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:38 AM

===OK Liz. I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree?
God, you're a nasty piece of work Lizzie. ===

Actually, Royston, I do not entirely agree. I have differed with Lizzie sometimes; & I think she has a tendency to overstate certain cases in a somewhat uncontrolled and hysterical fashion. But I think she is sometimes right, and it is vain & mistaken to assume that, becoz of her tendency to incontinent intemperateness in expression, everything she sez can be discounted.

In this present instance, e.g., all right-thinking people agree that the malevolent element in Islamism who commit acts of terror are but a small — nay, one might even say, minute — minority, frequently condemned by their better-intentioned co-religionists: as in the recent, welcome, Canadian fatwa; but that does not mean that this minority is not a threat, or that they can be ignored or discounted: or that those, like Lizzie, who vehenently draw attention to this ongoing and unbridled threat had not best be heeded, & should not written off as merely hysterical so that any warnings they issue may be ignored, which it appears to me there is a danger of happening on this thread. 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, the murder of one of Rushdie's publishers & the recent renewed attempt on the life of the Danish cartoonist, DID ALL HAPPEN - however much the majority of Muslims, along with the rest of us, deplore that fact: & we would be unwise to imagine that, becoz some Canadian Muslim clerics deplore these acts, & becoz Lizzie is sometimes silly & hysterical [a variant of 'shooting the messenger' IMO], the perepetrators represent no threat & so can safely be discounted. Let us, please not get complacent in an extreme overreaction to Lizzie's often incontinent modes of expression. There is, I should say, a modicum of wheat to be found amongst her chaff.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:53 AM

MtheGM, I don't think anyone really discounts the real and present threat from terrorism. But the wider issues around the demonisation of the entire Muslim world have implications for the future of the UK and racial harmony.

The terrorists and extremists need to be condemned. They need to be marginalised, especially by their own communities. But to lump the entire Muslim population of Britain in with the extremists and fundamentalists does enormous harm. It is divisive and unhelpful. And, rather worryingly (as I have said earlier in the thread) people who are suspicious of/feel threatened by the presence of "the other" in their midst are using isolated acts of extremism to justify their bigotry. This needs to be addressed if the multicultural society we live in is ever going to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:06 AM

"OK Liz.

I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree?"

Don't f*cking call me Liz! OK? Got it? You sanctimonious, patronizing, holier than thou prat.


"The terrorists and extremists need to be condemned."

And that is precisely what I and others have been doing. But now, NOW it is OK to do that because YOU have said so?


"They need to be marginalised, especially by their own communities."

EXACTLY what I've been saying!


"But to lump the entire Muslim population of Britain in with the extremists and fundamentalists does enormous harm."

And who and where was that done? I have been saying all along that if you don't love this country, then bloody well leave it. That is addressed to all of those who condem Great Britain and all she stands for, whatever their skin colour, creed or religion.

READ what the Imams have finally come out and said! It is an unprecedented idea and one that should have been started on the eve of 9/11...BUT, it is has now started to roll and watch it gather pace around the world.

The ONE thing that these bastards haven't counted on is their own faith, the good people from within their own faith, turning against them en masse....and that is what needs to be done, as fast as possible.

Does Islam need its own Civil War? Yes, I think it does, because the evil bastards who have discredited it, hidden within it, claimed it as their own need to be removed, the evil cut out from within..and the only people who can do that is those who really believe in the message of Allah. I hope it can be done peacefully, but somehow, I doubt the bastards will allow that to happen, because I feel they would have no conscience in attacking their fellow Muslims who dared to stand up to them.

I also hope, very much, that the Imams also call for the end of misogyny within all Islamic states and that equality, compassion and education is given to women as soon as it can possibly be arranged. And of course, an end to the barbaric punishments that some within Islam dared to bring into being, so very long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:06 AM

Yes, but remember the survey of student views I posted about on Dec 31.
thread.cfm?threadid=126102#2799932

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:09 AM

MtheGM,

Everyhing that Ruth said.

Nobody here ever denied the existence of terrorism.

It was claimed that "Muslims" - as a whole - were not speaking out against it. They are.

It was claimed that they don't do enough - for Lizzie - to get themselves heard. It is proven that they are doing a hell of a lot. Always have been. It is also proven that mainstream media works very hard to filter out those voices - even working hard to misrepresent those voices - whilst inventing and/or highlighting, with relish, the voices of the "minority extreme".

So, given that we all agree that there are terrorists out there and that there needs to be a proper perspective on that - so we can work together as a community to identify the guilty and protect the innocent - then it appears that Liz is in fact all chaff and no wheat.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:12 AM

Don't f*cking call me Liz! OK? Got it? You sanctimonious, patronizing, holier than thou prat.

Lizzie, why don't I get an asterisk when you tell me to fuck off?

I feel quite hurt.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:19 AM

You are so obsessively unpleasant to me, that you are beneath an asterisk.


You know what I'd love to see? I'd love to see Good Islam out on the streets, en masse, around the world, holding up banners and shouting..."NOT in OURS or ALLAH'S name!!"

The message has not been getting out because their voices have not been raised loud enough. Let us hope that now, that will start to shout as never before.

Yusuf Islam has been trying his hardest to get the religious leaders to realise that THEY *have* to change from within, to start condemning those who are ruining the name of Islam....

At last it seems that some are finally listening to him....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:22 AM

Ruth: I think there is little, if any, disagreement between us. I simply thought it expedient to draw attention to a possible perceived complacency creeping in, in certain quarters and certain comments, as result of possible unconscious overreaction to some of Lizzie's occasionally irritating and incontinent overstatements.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:27 AM

Royston - what I just said to Ruth — except, absolutely NO wheat whatever among the chaff?; not even a itsy-bitsy·teeny-weeny·ickle-schmickle: Oh, go on...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM

"then it appears that Liz is in fact all chaff and no wheat."

Once again, do NOT call me Liz. There is only ONE person in Mudcat who is allowed to call me that. You are not they.

"It was claimed that "Muslims" - as a whole - were not speaking out against it. They are."

No, they are not.

But now their leaders are starting to speak out and talk total common sense, hopefully, that will start to happen more and more until their voices become so loud that they will be heard above every bomb still yet planned to be exploded.

What Imam Syed Soharwardy has stated, in calling for the fatwa against terrorists, is hugely important for every Islamic leader to act upon...

"...The Koran teaches us that we have an obligation to stop violence. We live in a non-Muslim country called Canada where Muslims and others live side by side, and this is our country, too.

"Our children are born here. Our future children will live here. That's why we have to oppose this violence..."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:30 AM

"And who and where was that done?"

How about when you dismissed the entire male populations of certain Muslim countries for apparently being happy to throw acid in the faces of women who do not conform? How about when you asked what "we" can do "to turn Islam BACK to peace?"


"I have been saying all along that if you don't love this country, then bloody well leave it."

What you actually said:

"If you don't like this country and it's laws, way of life, and religious beliefs, then find a country you do like and bugger off over there."

Would you be kind enough to define the religious beliefs of the UK? Which way(s) of life are we specifically talking about? Which laws? The laws that guarantee free speech and which are founded on the history of dissent? As there are clearly many different ways of life, many laws and many religions, which of us are you inviting to "bugger off over there"?

And as you clearly don't approve of the rights to express dissent which are enshrined in law and are a cornerstone of British democracy, maybe it's you that ought to be looking at relocating...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:30 AM

"as result of possible unconscious overreaction to some of Lizzie's occasionally irritating and incontinent overstatements.

Michael"


Personally, I've always regarded those who make statements such as that about others, as being full of shit.....and I move on from them...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:39 AM

You are so obsessively unpleasant to me, that you are beneath an asterisk.

Just so that anyone else who reads this believes I am "obsessively unpleasant" to Lizzie.

I am obsessive that she writes the truth. I would have thought that was necessary in a community like this.

Those who might fleetingly think I am unpleasant as she says, may care to note that I have been told to "stick a turnip up my arse"; "Stick my head up my arse" and "Fuck Off Why Don't You".

This for simply pointing out that Lizzie is factually wrong. Something she never admits to.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:52 AM

"Those who might fleetingly think I am unpleasant as she says, may care to note that I have been told to "stick a turnip up my arse"; "Stick my head up my arse" and "Fuck Off Why Don't You"."


All richly deserved, actually, after many deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults from you.

In fact, under the circumstances, I'm incredibly restrained...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:10 AM

"How about when you dismissed the entire male populations of certain Muslim countries for apparently being happy to throw acid in the faces of women who do not conform?"

No, I said THE TALIBAN throw acid in the young girls faces...and the War Lords do equally appalling things...as was shown in the video I put up.

WHEN will you stop twisting my words for your own obsessive reasons?

I also stated that there is a dark misogyny that runs through Islam...and any man who did such terrible things to women doesnt' deserve to live. I stand by that.

"How about when you asked what "we" can do "to turn Islam BACK to peace?"

Yup....because it has become so poisoned by the Evil Bastards who have used the name of Islam to kill, rape and murder...But no worries, the Imams themselves are waking up to what they have to do, and I hope that wonderful letter above will soon be flying around the world to as many minds and hearts as possible.

There is much within Islam that is wrong...and until they get that right, they will always face opposition from around the world. It is wrong to beat women, it is wrong to rape them, to 'own' them, to keep them locked away, to dictate what they wear, to stone and behead, remove hands..etc..etc....and that has no part in today's world.

But hey, don't let that stop you from spinning and twisting, eh?

Yeesh!

And YOU are in charge of FAF????

Double bloody Yeesh!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:22 AM

The good voices have been too quiet for too long, but now, it would seem...and especially with the Canadian Imams now issuing a Fatwa against Terrorists, that they are beginning to realise that their religion is being so deeply harmed by these Extremists.

This kind of comment, though, is a part of the way Muslims have been getting smeared for years. The good voices have not been quiet. Muslims have been speaking out against extremist Muslims for a long time. The problem is that in its ongoing efforts to put Muslims in a bad light, the media has been unwilling to report on these efforts when they take place. I have for years been posting links here in the Mudcat to examples of Muslims doing just what you say they have not been doing. And whenever I've done that, the people who share your attitude - that Muslims have been silent about Muslim extremists - people whose first impulse is always to think the worst about Muslims, have completely ignored me... because people want to believe what they want to believe about Muslims, regardless of the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:31 AM

There is much within Islam that is wrong...and until they get that right, they will always face opposition from around the world. It is wrong to beat women, it is wrong to rape them, to 'own' them, to keep them locked away, to dictate what they wear, to stone and behead, remove hands..etc..etc....and that has no part in today's world.

Where, Lizzie, is your voice against Hinduism, which has an equally misogynistic component among many of its practitioners?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:58 AM

Ah, Hinduism - to which file to the Tamils belong I wonder. Saw a Tamil mob gathering at a music festival in Croydon last summer, reminded me a bit of the mods & rockers fiasco in the 1960s!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

All richly deserved, actually, after many deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults from you.

Since you believe there are "many", list three like I have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:21 AM

I aspire to be regarded by Liz as obsessively unpleasant. And I think I have discovered a fast track to it, Haven't I? Liz?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM

"The good voices have not been quiet."

Their leaders have, Carol...and it is the leaders who will be heard the loudest..

And I have posted many links to wonderful things said by Israeli Jews and groups made up of Muslims AND Jews who are all working for peace in Israel, so I'm sorry, but I take umbridge at your remarks there because you ignored those posts, as you have a very different view of Israel to me.

ANY religion that abuses women or deals out violence to those who don't believe...or don't do as they are told, is despicable. This thread though is about the Islamic protest, which, thankfully, has now been cancelled....and those within Islam4UK are now in trouble..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:31 AM

I'm not a racist, I just agree with racist opinions.

I'm not a homophobe, I just think that homosexuality shoud be repressed.

I hate the BNP, its just a coincidence that our views are the same.

Besides, my reasons for having those views are 'clever', whereas the BNP are morons.



Does anyone recognize this line of thought?

perhaps those of you who basically say the same thing?



Time for some people to try and climb out of the box.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:56 AM

"The good voices have not been quiet."

Their leaders have, Carol...and it is the leaders who will be heard the loudest..

No, their leaders have not, Lizzie. But you and most of the rest of the people who are so eager to paint Muslims in the worst possible light have totally ignored them when they have spoken out, many, many, many times in the past. As I said before, I have for years been posting links here in the Mudcat to Muslims, most especially Muslim leaders, speaking out against Muslim extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:10 PM

And I have posted many links to wonderful things said by Israeli Jews and groups made up of Muslims AND Jews who are all working for peace in Israel, so I'm sorry, but I take umbridge at your remarks there because you ignored those posts, as you have a very different view of Israel to me.


What are you suggesting here, Lizzie? Are you saying that I have cricized you for not acknowledging the good things that are being done by many Israeli Jews to help bring about peace in Israel? If that is what you are suggesting, please provide some evidence of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

Carol, that letter, and idea, from Canada's Imam Soharwardy is something wildly different...and wonderful.

You know it, I know it.



Lox...who has views like the BNP in here? Have I, or anyone else, stated a hatred for 'foreigners'? Have I, or anyone else, stated a hatred for folks with different colour skin?

Nope, I've merely said love us or leave us...over and over...and that goes for anyone who wants to cause trouble in my country, or blow up any of my fellow countrymen (of any colour or religion) or those around the world. Evil people can bugger off...and that is NOT racist, for heaven's sake.

May I politely suggest you grow up and stop throwing the racist word around willynilly.

I loathed the IRA scum who caused such terrible suffering with their intense, obsessive hatreds...and I deeply admired the Irish who went on marches for Peace...particularly the Irish women who tried so hard to stop the bombers and the hatred.

No-one has the right to bring terror to the world in the way that is now happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:22 PM

No, Carol, you didn't criticise me, you simply ignored the facts and carried on posting about how wrong Israel was/is and how terrible the Palestinian problems were/are.

There are two sides to everything...and just as Dave now gets short shrift from me, because of his obsessive undermining of nearly all that I say, so Palestine is suffering the consequences of years of Israel suffering at the hands of terrorists...

Excuse me now, but I'm off to post Imam Soharwardy's letter to a few people and do my bit to help him spread the word..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:22 PM

Carol, that letter, and idea, from Canada's Imam Soharwardy is something wildly different...and wonderful.

You know it, I know it.

No, Lizzie. You are entirely wrong about that. It is not different or new. Muslim leaders have been doing things like that for a very long time. I have provided many links to them doing it. If you choose to ignore what they've been doing for a long time, that is proof of your need paint Muslims in the worst possible light.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:26 PM

No, Carol, you didn't criticise me, you simply ignored the facts and carried on posting about how wrong Israel was/is and how terrible the Palestinian problems were/are.

Lizzie, I am beginning to come to the conclusion that you can't tell the difference between the truth and a lie. The vast majority of my posts on the subject of Palestine/Israel are either about the wonderful things Jews and Israeli Jews are doing to help promote freedom for Palestinians, or they are written by Jews who are trying to help promote freedom for Palestinians. The fact that you have chosen to ignore this also, shows that you are eager to paint me in the worst possible light, and you are willing to lie to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:38 PM

...and I have on numerous occasions, said that the Jews who are doing this work (and I have said that they are working very hard and making enormous sacrifices), have my, and deserve our, eternal gratitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:06 PM

Eh?

but when we used to stand up for Israel, you said they were committing genocide on Palestine...

There are reams of posts from you about that, Carol...masses of heated arguments too.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:17 PM

All richly deserved, actually, after many deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults from you.

When challenged to provide three examples of deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults.........................

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:18 PM

I am very, very surprised that you would conflate the use of the term "government of Israel" with "Jew", Lizzie. There is a vast difference between the government of Israel and Jews, just as there is a vast difference between al Qaeda and Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:26 PM

I remind you of your original comment bringing Jews into the equation:

And I have posted many links to wonderful things said by Israeli Jews and groups made up of Muslims AND Jews who are all working for peace in Israel, so I'm sorry, but I take umbridge at your remarks there because you ignored those posts, as you have a very different view of Israel to me.

It's not about Jews, and never has been. Not only have I never framed the issue as being about Jews, I have consistently maintained that it is not about Jews. It is about governments. In the case of Israel, it is about an imperialist, colonialist, largely European government that is committing crimes against an indigenous population. Whether or not that government is Jewish is totally irrelevant. And that's also how it should be with Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:32 PM

"When challenged to provide three examples of deeply personal and highly unpleasant insults......................... "

There's no need. Folks can just click on your name and read post after post after post of obsessiveness, Dave. It's that simple.


You know something, Carol....I ain't getting into yet more obsessiveness..Really, it's OK, you go ahead and say whatever you want about me. It'll be far easier than "You said, I said, you said' all the time...and as you, and a few others have it in your dear little heads that I'm racist, and are determined to prove it, I'll leave you all to it.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread should now be closed..and as I started this thread, I think I'm at liberty to request that.

The topic for which it was started has had the approriate ending and the march at Wootton Bassett has now been stopped, the people behind it being investigated for terrorist propaganda on their site and in other things they have written...and most importantly, the people of Wootton Bassett and the families of the soldiers concerned have been spared yet more grief.

Also, the Far Right has been denied an opportunity which I am sure will have upset them a great deal.

So, all in all, a good result all round.



Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

So you can then go off on one about how the Mudcat censors your threads? Were you not, only a few posts back, telling Joe to take no notice of the ones who were suggesting that he should take some sort of action? Now you are doing exactly the same thing.

You realy deserve a prize, Liz, and don't you wish you hadn't told someone not to call you that now? Start a thread. Loose the point. Go off on a tangent. loose that point. Realise you were wrong in the first place. Go off on a rant about how everyone is against you. Change the subject seventeen times. Rant about how the Mudcat and everyone else in the world is wrong. Attempt to prove the point by getting yourself censured. And so it goes in every single bloody thread!

We have had sensible discussions, Liz, so I do know that you are capable of rational thought and some very kind thoughts. What happens? Is it a disorder of some sort? Medication? What is the trigger? I would love to know.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

"We have had sensible discussions, Liz, so I do know that you are capable of rational thought and some very kind thoughts. What happens? Is it a disorder of some sort? Medication? What is the trigger? I would love to know."

Seems I am capable of far kinder thoughts than you.


No, I just felt that this thread spiralling into Israel and Palestine would be pretty pointless, but you're right...keep it open and then you, Dave...and folks like you, can use the name you know upsets me, so you can get your spiteful kicks out of it.

All you need to know is the one person who is allowed to call me that is a person who would never dream of hurting me, ridiculing me, verbally abusing me, or calling me a racist.

You carry on with your spite though, don't let me stop your enjoyment.

Joe, can you please keep their playground open for them after all, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:58 PM

But Liz - Lizzie is not even your real name is it? Why would the diminutive bit of a made up name upset you? And a pound to a penny you will be back!

DeG

Who is a David but the el Gnomo bit is made up. Everyne who matters knows it was originaly Polakow, is now Polshaw and I don't get the least bit up upset at any variation:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 02:07 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:32 PM

Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

Joe, can you please keep their playground open for them after all, thanks.

I seem to remember a couple of things I posted earlier

1. That Lizzie would predictably accuse me of following her around. In fact anyone who reads what I have said will see that my first post was nothing whatsoever to do with Lizzie and later I only posted in response to a story about muslim churches and a mosque that she posted that was patently untrue.

2. That she had a history of contradicting herself. However 20 minutes is a new record.

Well done Lizzie!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 02:26 PM

If a certain name is out of bounds, how about Beth ? Betty ?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 03:57 PM

This is all so childish. Get a knicker grip folks.

Maybe there should be a vote to say Yes that the protest should go ahead versus No it shouldn't.

And when thats done shut the thread down.

Whats the point of Mudcatters slagging each other off. I thought we were meant to be friends. :-)

So My vote is NO

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:03 PM

I agree Villan, It's time to close this thread. It has become sad and sore. I vote NO. Regarding Lizzie Cornish, I vote YES. She took a stand and fought her corner well. I agree with everything she said. Why should people have to explain themselves for being British and proud ?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM

GUEST
You are not allowed to vote. So not counted.

So its still one NO

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:28 PM

Well the decision is taken out of our hands - it is not going ahead.

But if there were a referendum I would vote "NO". I have never advocated unbridled free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM

Well thank goodness for that Roysten.

I bet if we stopped having a go at each other, most people would vote NO

Or am I wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:16 PM

I like to think so, Les, but the argument was not about should it or should it not happen, it was about the bigotry behind some assertions that a lot of innocent people ought to carry the shame and guilt of those cranks. That was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:15 PM

"Lox...who has views like the BNP in here? Have I, or anyone else, stated a hatred for 'foreigners'? Have I, or anyone else, stated a hatred for folks with different colour skin?"

Actually, the BNP deny that they hate foreigners and they also deny hating people with different coloured skin.

They do misrepresent moslems and express the view that "if they don't lke it here they should leave".

So far that sounds pretty similar to what you've written in this thread

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:39 PM

Tell me this then, clever clogs...if you think that I think as the BNP do, then why am I one of the people they've targetted in Facebook and in Myspace?

Geez, Lox, lately you take my breath away with your insulting posts. Take a look at my posts about the BNP in other threads before you start making accusations.

And I did not say 'they' as in 'Muslims' so don't misrepresent what I said. I said if *anyone* hates my country, then *they* can bugger off out of it. That means anyone of any colour or religion or creed. If you love this country, then fine...absolutely wonderful, welcome with open arms, but if you come to spread hatred, to take revenge, then no, bugger off and leave my country alone, because my country stands for fairness, tolerance, kindness and compassion, and I am fair fed up to my back teeth of people who constantly want to talk us down and make out we've nowt but bad history in our history, be they from thousands of miles away, or the bloke next door who's lived here for ten generations.

Do NOT spin what I say.

Now please, take your 'I know everyone's a secret BNP supporter except me, 'cos I am so damn smart and smug!' values and shove them where the sun wouldn't even want to shine, even if it could, because you are beginning to really hack me off....

I am not racist, not do I believe in 'class' which, if my memory serves me correctly, you do. I see people's souls, not their colours or backgrounds..and I respect their voices rather than their silences...I also fully support the new Fatwa against terrorists who are using Allah's name...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:43 PM

'Liz' said:

"bugger off and leave my country alone, because my country stands for fairness, tolerance..."


Oh the irony. Just like silvery and goldy, dontcha know.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:51 PM

When people are quoted out of context, they can be made to look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM

Except that I have made this point repeatedly: Britain DOES stand for tolerance. And free speech. And it defends the right to dissent. So when some (rather reactionary) people try and "protect" British culture by suggesting that anyone with "unacceptable" views should leave the country, there is a deep irony in their failure to grasp even the fundamental structures on which their democracy is founded.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:59 PM

I know Lizzie doesn't support the BNP.

I am joining the ranks of thse catters who wish she would stop and think before she posts.

Lizzie would be a great friend if you were in trouble. She'd fight for you whether you were right or wrong.

But sometimes you need to pause and reflect on which battles you want to fight that way.

Sometimes it takes strength to acknowledge you have made a mistake and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:01 PM

Anybody going to stop bickering and state clearly whether they support the protest or not.

I doubt it as you are all too insensed trying to blame each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM

Villan, it's academic at this stage, but I stated toward the beginning of the thread that, much as I might disagree with what Choudary has to say, I support his right to protest peacefully. I also supported the BBC in their decision to put Nick Griffin on Question Time. You can't change the rules just because you don't like what somebody has to say. When we curtail our own domestic civil liberties in order to silence specific factions in society, the terrorists have won.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:15 PM

So thats a YES then Ruth.

No problem with that. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"When we curtail our own domestic civil liberties in order to silence specific factions in society, the terrorists have won."

Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"Anybody going to stop bickering and state clearly whether they support the protest or not."

I did earlier too, in my words.

Then the discussion evolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

Anybody able to do something good for society and help this Charity.

thread.cfm?threadid=126422&messages=5

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:26 PM

"Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread."

How? Has anyone prevented her from saying exactly what she likes? No, they've simply disagreed with her and demonstrated that her arguments are inflammatory and prejudicial, founded on misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:43 AM

It is usual to deny permission for demonstrations likely to lead to disorder. Marches in NI are a good example.
The WB demo was sure to have counter demos and had to be banned, IMO.
As for Lizzie, she does not seem at all racist or bigotted to me, but I too have been falsely accused of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:12 AM

It's been reported in todays papers that it's now been cancelled.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:46 AM

GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

"When we curtail our own domestic civil liberties in order to silence specific factions in society, the terrorists have won."

Seem to me that's what's been happening to Liz on this thread.<<<



Thank you. x

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

I won my pound or penny - whichever way it works anyway:-)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:35 AM

"Except that I have made this point repeatedly: Britain DOES stand for tolerance. And free speech. And it defends the right to dissent. So when some (rather reactionary) people try and "protect" British culture by suggesting that anyone with "unacceptable" views should leave the country, there is a deep irony in their failure to grasp even the fundamental structures on which their democracy is founded."


Britain does NOT stand for Bloody Stupidity though...and for too long, we have.

We have put up with way too much shit for way too long, and you can only push the British so far before we explode.

'Tolerant' means that we put with way more shite than other countries, because of our kind and welcoming nature, but when that tolerance is abused....when our kindness and welcome are spat on with hatred, then sorry, but....the door is over there....

Stupid ideas like yours, where we should tolerate ANYONE and ANYTHING have led us to the state we are now in, where you have people who loathe this country, living here, taking advantage of all they can, whilst secretly preaching hatred and abuse to young men and undermining our society....or gangs from Eastern Europe who bring their tribal wars over here, their prostitutio rackets, etc.....

It stinks.

And if it had been stopped a long while back, things would be far better now.

If you let the rest of the world see you as a soft touch, then you will be treated like one.

Unconditional Love is not what democracy is about, because with that always come those who will abuse the love. Respect is what democracy is about, and with respect goes never preaching hatred or choosing to blow people up, hurt them, steal from them, or bring terror to people. That is unacceptable.

Democracy carries Responsibility with it.

And that goes for all people, of all colours, backgrounds and religions, no matter if they've lived here for generations or have just arrived on our shores.

We have long forgotten the respect part, in our rush to claim democracy as an open free for all, for all to behave as they so choose.

There have always been unwritten rules within our democracy, covering respect for others...Those rules have been thrown away by people who ain't interested in them. They are only interested in themselves and their visions.

And Lox, I do not defend 'wrong', no matter who the friend may be.

I will always tell someone when they are wrong. But I will be there to mop up the tears and give hugs to, when they're needed.

Tough Love
Tough Democrary


AND....as you believe so much in free speech, as does your pal Ralph, I'm sure you'll both now be writing to the BBC to ask them to restore MY freedom of speech on there...and to stop kicking up such a spiteful hullabaloo on here purely because you're angry that Joe HAS allowed me freedom of speech on here, against the wishes of you and your pals.

Once again, it staggers me that someone with your outlook, who seeks to stop people from having an opinion, having a voice, is running FAF, but...Wonders Never Cease...as they say...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:43 AM

I reckon this is building up to one of those threads where Lizzie leaves and never returns.

Subject: Is folk music killing itself?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 08:46 PM

This is my final thread on Mudcat, after being told that I don't see music in the same way as you 'musicians'...and being kind of lambasted for daring to say I thought Eddi Reader had the most beautiful voice..

Sometimes Lizzie changes her mind in the space of twenty minutes.

Sometimes it takes a little longer.

One thing is for certain. She has left Mudcat never to return more times than anyone else!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:10 AM

Joe, could this thread now be closed, please.

Joe, can you please keep their playground open for them after all, thanks.

...you're angry that Joe HAS allowed me freedom of speech on here, against the wishes of you and your pals.

This is absolutely priceless and getting better by the minute. Keep it up Betty.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:25 AM

"If you let the rest of the world see you as a soft touch, then you will be treated like one."

So we've got Soft Touch Britain and "If you don't like how we do things here, leave." Not to mention yesterday's classic "How can we tuen Islam BACK to peace?" Any more right-wing, knee-jerk, reactionary drivel you'd like to post before lunch?


"Stupid ideas like yours"

Stupid ideas like the free speech which you constantly advocate and defend - for yourself? I know this is a difficult concept for you, 'Liz', but I will try and spell it out once more: when you curtail the civil liberties of the many to punish the few, the terrorists and extremists are winning. Before you go on about the unwritten rules in our democracy, I suggest you do a bit of reading and find out what they actually are. How are you getting on with that Billy Bragg book, by the way? Or is it still gathering dust on your shelf?


Now, I have tried to stick to the actual issues being debated here, but as you've chosen (as usual) to make it personal, let's make something perfectly clear: I never did anything to have you banned from the BBC messageboards, or any of the other myriad places from which you have been banned on the internet (including this one, on more than one occasion). The BBC banned you for persistently harassing its staff, as we know because you actually made the messages public. Remember the bit where they said action would be taken if you didn't leave them alone? You have no one but yourself and your antisocial behaviour to blame, but it's clear you're not good at accepting the truth of these situations, and it serves you better to believe that other people have done something to "get you banned". Sorry, 'Liz', but the fault lies with you and you alone.

Now, if the BBC choose to ban you from being antagonistic and disruptive on their messageboards and from harassing their staff, I guess that's their right. But if you wanted to conduct a protest about their decision to ban you outside Broadcasting House, I would fully support your right to do so, even if I thought that you were completely bonkers. That's free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:44 AM

You know, the 'Liz' thing is a really interesting 'mind' one.

There is only one person on here who calls me that...and calls me that out of a deep friendship, too...and that person has been on this thread, but all the others on here who've used it have used it purely to be malicious.

Strange how three little letters reveal so much about a person.

Can you please not tell the same old lies about me harrassing the BBC staff, even though, again, you do it to paint me in the worst light. The BBC accused me of that, when it didn't actually happen at all, because at no time did I address any of my emails to anyone in particular, merely replied to theirs. Again, I realise this irks you, and it's far better, from your point of view, with your vision of how you want others to view me, to paint that picture, but I have told you, over and again about this, yet still you choose to tell a complete lie.

Interesting.

I guess some use their free speech to spin, lie and put others down as much as they can..

And you feel that's what democracy is for, huh?

As I said, you and you're gang have repeatedly tried to ban me from here, let alone succeeding with the BBC.

May I suggest you go back to you FAF page, and your buddies' page, where you are free to put down whatever lies and terrible comments about me that you want to...for after all, that's what your Folk Against Facism page is about, right...? Freedom for all, apart from those you don't like...

You carry on and use your freedom of speech to wound, Joan, it's obviously where you get your enjoyment from...but please, don't tell me that I have to accept people preaching hatred and putting my country down, because I don't.

I have very different memories of England, of Britain, than you do, purely because I've lived here one helluva lot longer, which is not racist, merely a common sense observation, whether it irks you or not...and I recall a time very different from now, when TRUE democracy abounded, and with that democracy went respect. And if something was terribly wrong, then society, as a majority, spoke out against it. We no longer do that..and in becoming apathtic due to the stress of political correctness gone mad, we have lost something very dear to the shores of this land.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:48 AM

And apparently, there are now 400,000 people who've signed the Facebook page calling for this march to be banned, so instead of carrying on your campaign against me, may I politely suggest you get your arse over to Facebook and deal with 400,000 people who you'd obviously deem racist as well, I presume.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:07 AM

I haven't read every single post on this thread but it would have been a disgrace for this protest to take place in this country full stop, but to decide to do it in Wootton Bassett is particularly insensitive. If anyone wishes to highlight the plight of Muslims in Afghanistan globally then there are plenty of places in the world that they can go!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:10 AM

"Can you please not tell the same old lies about me harrassing the BBC staff, even though, again, you do it to paint me in the worst light. The BBC accused me of that, when it didn't actually happen at all..."

Well, given it's your word against theirs (and you did once post the message they sent), and given your track record, I know who I'm inclined to believe. Others, of course, can make up their own minds.

"Strange how three little letters reveal so much about a person."

Well, 'Liz', I for one am rather inspired by an incident a few months ago. A 15 year old girl posted on Mudcat to counter some of your more hysterical claims about "the youth of today" by talking about the experiences of herself and her friends. You insisted on putting quote marks around her name to imply that you didn't believe that she was who she said she was, even though she asked you repeatedly to stop doing it (and she was quite upset by it, because she put a lot of consideration into her very well-articulated posts). If you would not acknowledge her right to be addressed with respect (and several Mudcatters called you on your bullying, patronising behaviour at the time), why should you be treated any differently? Oh that's right - it's one rule for 'Liz', another for anyone else.

Besides, as D el G pointed out earlier, Lizzie isn't even your real name, which makes the situation all the more ridiculous.

"As I said, you and you're gang have repeatedly tried to ban me from here, let alone succeeding with the BBC."

This is patently not true - you have only ever been banned for your own behaviour. And you WERE banned from Mudcat on a couple of occasions because you managed to piss Joe Offer off through doing things like creating multiple identities so that you could agree with yourself.


"Freedom for all, apart from those you don't like..."

Irony...like silvery and goldy, innit, 'Liz'? Isn't that exactly your approach to free speech? See, the thing you need to understand is that your right to express your opinion is fine; but if other people respond, disagree with you, and disassemble your arguments with logic and evidence, they are not removing your right to free speech; they are simply disagreeing with you. You appear to believe that free speech includes the freedom not to be challenged in your (utterly wrong-headed) beliefs. I'm afraid you are mistaken.



Ooh, another jewel - "political correctness gone mad"! And I missed this one earlier: "people who loathe this country, living here, taking advantage of all they can" - would that be "coming over here and taking all our jobs", or is this a reference to your bog-standard benefit scroungers? Which right-wing, Norman Tebbit-esque cliche were you actually employing in this instance? just for clarification, you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

I have very different memories of England, of Britain, than you do, purely because I've lived here one helluva lot longer, which is not racist, merely a common sense observation, whether it irks you or not...and I recall a time very different from now, when TRUE democracy abounded, and with that democracy went respect.

Well, funnily enough, I have lived here 57 years now and I don't remember any chocolate box cottages with roses in the garden either. I remember lots of joy, fun and freedom. I remember hot summers and cold winters. I remember a time very different from now and one very similar in some ways. I also remember miners strikes. The demonisation of trade unions. The institutionalised racism in all walks of life.

Is it any better now? No better or worse for me. Then I had my youth, now I have my family. Then I had to put up with being a 'Fucking Polak'. Now I don't. Then I had the Beano to make me laugh. Now I have Mudcat:-)

Just a common sense observation...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

And apparently, there are now 400,000 people who've signed the Facebook page calling for this march to be banned, so instead of carrying on your campaign against me, may I politely suggest you get your arse over to Facebook and deal with 400,000 people who you'd obviously deem racist as well, I presume.

Guess what? The discussion part of thread has been closed because people have been making racist comments on it!

You couldn't make it up really.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:11 AM

Chocolate box images, Dave?

Why yes, there were...and still are thousands of them in this beautiful country.

Joan took umbridge at me for saying that I recalled cricket matches being played on village greens, whilst the church bells rang out in the background. There were many village greens where I lived, many that I visited, as Dad would always take us out for a drive every Sunday afternoon, and we'd stop off at a pub somewhere, that allowed children in, have a sandwich and a glass of orange squash...

My Dad adored this country, and it was his dream to one day be able to travel through every village and town in it. He fought for it, his friends died for it....but the Britain of today, in some parts, would be unrecognizable to him, because of the filth, the graffiti, the simmering tensions, the poverty and the total lack of care of our surroundings that so many now seem to have. The out of town towns, the vast amount of cars, traffic etc...the stress in so many places...

Show of Hands, of course, have written many songs about what's happening here, as I'm sure you all know, being their new fans.

The Miner's Strike filled me with horror, as the hatred it unleashed has never gone away, and whilst I understand the horrors it caused to those communities, time has to move on, hatreds have to be laid to rest, but they never were, were they?...Class War, the Extreme Left, the division, those who've fought so hard TO divide...and the hatred now thrown at Middle England, whoever they may be.....

My country has been deliberately dumbed down and divided...and it has been almost taken over by a brigade of bullying types who shout you down if you dare to shout out that many things are wrong, as can be seen in here...Mob Rule now replaces conversation...and some people are subjected to highly irrational lambasting, purely for having the guts to come out from the crowd and tell The Emperor that he has n clothes on.

Once he wore clothes made from Honour, Truth and Integrity, which shone in the midday sun, reflecting the warm and contented people of his land...

But now his clothes are dull, being made from Arrogance, Ignorance and Greed, and the only reflection they give off is the Emperor's face, for he sees no-one but himself, no longer cares about his country or her people...

And if anyone dares to stand out from the crowd and call out to him, they are immediately set upon by his henchmen, who drown out their voice with cries of "You RACIST Bastard!"

Luckily, I still have clothes made from Honour, Truth and Integrity, which protect me from all the viciousness that gets thrown at me, in the name of Folk Against Facism...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:16 AM

"A 15 year old girl posted on Mudcat to counter some of your more hysterical claims about "the youth of today" by talking about the experiences of herself and her friends. You insisted on putting quote marks around her name to imply that you didn't believe that she was who she said she was, even though she asked you repeatedly to stop doing it (and she was quite upset by it, because she put a lot of consideration into her very well-articulated posts)."

Ah, 'Daisybell' you meam...

Strange, but 'Daisybell' sounded awfully like someone not too far away from those words above...which is why I kept the name in '''s.

That simple, really.

Lizzie is the name that all call me. Apart from two people, one of whom calls me Liz.

'Thank You'

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:21 AM

Wow...what a load of self-regarding, posturing old bollocks.

Just to be clear: nothing gets "thrown at you in the name of Folk Against Fascism" (note spelling). I, as an individual, representing no cause or voice but my own, have debated certain points with you and demonstrated that your arguments are factually incorrect and intellectually bereft. At which point you started throwing tantrums. So, all is as normal in Lisa 'Liz' World.

Lisa 'Liz' said: "Joan took umbridge at me for saying that I recalled cricket matches being played on village greens, whilst the church bells rang out in the background"

What I actually said, after a long, misty-eyed bout of whimsy about spitfires and cricket and church bells and village greens, was (and this was a thought that has since been echoed by many of your countrymen) the England you were trying to conjure up was a sentimental image that ony existed on biscuit tins and Hovis adverts, and it did not take into account the real, multicultural society that we live in. You responded (and this is the important bit) that I would have to have "England running through every part of me" to be able truly understand your vision. The implication being that, as I was not born here, I could never properly understand or appreciate England in the way that you could.

It was THIS statement that I told you was racist. It implies that people who were not born in England don't have a right to its heritage in the same way that people "with England running through every part of them" do. Would that be a matter of birth or of blood, by the way? It says that only native-born English people can understand and appreciate England properly.

You have since twisted this into the statement "I was told that to love the sight of cricket being played on village greens was to dream of an English idyll that no longer exists and therefore, it showed that I was racist."

Which was not what was ever said to you. And moreover, I think you know that. Aren't you bored of these arguments by now? Picking over statements that were made several years ago, pulling them out of context, and still trying to use them in sad little games of point-scoring? Because god knows I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:42 AM

There were many village greens where I lived, many that I visited, as Dad would always take us out for a drive every Sunday afternoon, and we'd stop off at a pub somewhere

Therein lies the rub, Bessy. You could afford a car. We couldn't. We didn't even have TV until I was 10 in 1963. When I first married we had no TV either, or telephone. While you can look at your past with the rose coloured glasses of privelege the vast majority of us look back at the reality. Don't get me wrong - I loved my childhood and upbringing. Even if it was amidst the dark satanic mills of t'north. It was a wonderful time, amongst ture friends, many of whom remain the same today. It was a past of discovery and getting the most out of every last experience. It also taught me the true value of England. Not that of the Village Green Preservation Society (Good song btw - Better by the Kinks than Ms Rusby in my opinion). The England, and note I do use England rather than Britain, that accepts and welcomes all peoples, races and, above all, allows changes to accomodate everyone.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:43 AM

"Strange, but 'Daisybell' sounded awfully like someone not too far away from those words above...which is why I kept the name in '''s."

Despite the fact that another Mudcatter actually spoke to her on the phone, and posted on the thread to say that she was real? No, you did it to be nasty and provoke her, Lisa/'Liz'. A 15 year old child. So why should anyone have any particular regard for how you wish to be addressed?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:18 AM

"Therein lies the rub, Bessy. You could afford a car. We couldn't. We didn't even have TV until I was 10 in 1963. When I first married we had no TV either, or telephone. While you can look at your past with the rose coloured glasses of privelege the vast majority of us look back at the reality."

Oh, come on, Dave, get real. My Dad never owned his house, throughout his entire life. When he died he didn't have enough to bury himself...and his children helped to pay his bills, towards the end of his life. We lived in a rented house, the same one from when I was 6 months to age 27, when I got married..it was an ordinary, small semi, nowt special at all....and we never had holidays abroad, or fancy this or that...hand me downs from my brother were often my clothes...

Yes, Dad had a car, but not until I was about 10 years old, so that'd be 1965...

Privilege?

Ha!   Every month he worried about paying the bills, all his life long...but he loved his ocuntry, loved the countryside, and in those days it was dirt cheap to run a car, as well you know...so it didn't cost much to go out, nor to have a drink and a sandwich once a week...



"Don't get me wrong - I loved my childhood and upbringing. Even if it was amidst the dark satanic mills of t'north. It was a wonderful time, amongst ture friends, many of whom remain the same today. It was a past of discovery and getting the most out of every last experience. It also taught me the true value of England. Not that of the Village Green Preservation Society (Good song btw - Better by the Kinks than Ms Rusby in my opinion). The England, and note I do use England rather than Britain, that accepts and welcomes all peoples, races and, above all, allows changes to accomodate everyone."

Exactly. But sometimes, changes come which aren't always for the better...and that's when the rose coloured glasses really are put on, by those who refuse to see with clear vision....

Try to make out I'm Mrs. Middle England, if you so choose, as others have done, but sadly, for them, I grew up in the wrong part of Pinner, not on Pinner Hill where the private roads and huge houses were, but down the bottom, where ordinary people struggled. Nowadays, of course, those houses go for crazy amounts, but my happiest memories were helping Dad in the garden, playing in the trees, picking the fruit from them..simple, free pleasures....

So yes, chocolate box England was all around and it still is, even oop north....and there's nowt wrong with admitting that..

It's like we've all been sprayed with Dozy Lotion, where none of us are allowed to remember England as she was, let alone talk about it...

Well, I was inside the day they crop sprayed my island to make people forget how it was...and I have never believed in NOT looking back, nor taking the best from the past into the future either...

I don't give a fuck that my country is now of many colours, because that has brought it's own enrichment...but I can't stand tribal hatreds, be they from Eastern Europe, the Middle East, or from White skinned Skinheads or Mods and Rockers...

I love this land, with every breath in my body and I will never, EVER give in to those who tell me that I can't be proud to be English, to be British, or that I am from a truly amazing country that has a history the rest of the world envies, even if some of them try to rub out that history and leave us only with the bad parts....We are a great country, and anyone who tries to undo that greatness......can shove off...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:29 AM

Joan, the thing you truly do NOT understand is that those memories, those visions DID exist. They are not from my imagination, they are REAL!

You were not living in England at that time, so they would not be in your memory.

I have no memories or ideas of how the USA was at that time, because I didn't live there...

When will you get over this problem and stop telling me that my memories, my childhood, my teenagehood, did not exist. I did not grow up in a multicultural part of the country. That is not a crime, it's just a fact, because er...like..er...that's where I grew up.

That does not make me racist you know, nor the hundreds of thousands of other people who still live in places that are not multicultural.

You live in an English village yourself, so how the fook can you tell me that chocolate box England doesn't exist, even to this day?

And as far as 'Daisybell' goes, how the fook do any of us know, for certain, who we're speaking to in here.

Let's get this straight though, if 'Daisybell' was your daughter, then I'm surprised you got a 15 year old girl to come into Mudcat to write to someone you believe is truly racist and deeply unpleasant...
I really did not believe that even you would stoop that low to get at me, but perhaps you did, who knows?

Don't forget, anyone can post as a Guest in here, absolutely ANYONE at all, so 'Guest Daisybell' could be er...anyone.

Yeesh! But hey, don't let it stop your campaign, eh....and...I was not unpleasant to 'Daisybell' either, merely telling her how lucky she was to attend an all girls school where she was obviously having such an incredibly 'spiffing' time....

And yes, I did care for Douglas Bader, who DID fly Spitfires, and no, he was NOT a part of my imaginative chocolate box racist memory, but a real person, who would run circles round you and your ilk for daring to tell him what his country was, or is, were he still alive.
And Sir Douglas is part of this nation's proud history...because there are few alive as brave as he was...An amazing man, from an amazing country.

So, put that in your Spiteful Pipe and smoke it, kid...and get off my back...

As I said, go over to your FAF page and start dealing with the 400,000 people who'd you'd deem racists for saying that they wanted that bloody march stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:33 AM

I love this land, with every breath in my body and I will never, EVER give in to those who tell me that I can't be proud to be English, to be British

And that has what bearing on the current discussion exactly? Smoke and mirrors, Betsy. Ever thought of taking up politics?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:37 AM

I will *not* give in to the temptation to make a cheap joke about Douglas Bader 'running circles', I will **NOT**........

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:45 AM

Well said Lizzie. You have gained my respect. I think some people need to ask themselves what being British actually means to them. Some people were incredibly rude and arrogant towards you, they kept chipping away at your comments rather than admitting they were at fault. I do hope some members feel shame at this. One poster made a comment regarding Ruth over the weekend which she requested be removed, I am now inclined to agree with the comment in the light of her latest posts. Clarification from her would be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:52 AM

Well done, Smedley. I would hope you would not make such comments. You would not have a leg to stand on...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:52 AM

"After the war he became an avid and skilled golfer, and also became involved in politics. He supported apartheid, and his associations with some on the extreme right of British politics led many to believe he was a closet extremist and racist himself."

The Briar Files: Featured Pipe Smoker: Douglas Bader

What interesting heroes you have Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:56 AM

"I was not unpleasant to 'Daisybell' either, merely telling her how lucky she was to attend an all girls school where she was obviously having such an incredibly 'spiffing' time...."

It was exactly that sort of sneeriness that many people recognised as the sort of bullying you often claim to be the victim of yourself, Lisa 'Liz'. Daisy explained repeatedly that she goes to a state school. But because her real life experiences did not match the nightmare picture of growing up in present-day Britain that you were trying to paint, you sneered at her, patronised her, trivialised her views and accused her of being a liar and a fake. Several people on the thread were rather shocked by your attacks and defended her against you, and said how much they enjoyed the perspective that she shared.

"Let's get this straight though, if 'Daisybell' was your daughter, then I'm surprised you got a 15 year old girl to come into Mudcat to write to someone you believe is truly racist and deeply unpleasant..."

Daisy reads Mudcat from time to time, like many young people who are involved in the folk scene - why should she not have the right to respond when she sees someone attacking her whole generation as a bunch of feral, sexually promiscuous pissheads who are being ritually abused every day by their schools? She was furious, so she decided to respond. I told Joe Offer beforehand that she would be doing so, and he gave his approval. Who the hell are you to tell her she shouldn't?


"And as far as 'Daisybell' goes, how the fook do any of us know, for certain, who we're speaking to in here.

Don't forget, anyone can post as a Guest in here, absolutely ANYONE at all, so 'Guest Daisybell' could be er...anyone."

Well, unlike 99.9% of people on Mudcat, Daisy spoke to a Mudcat member on the phone who vouched for her identity. Joe Offer also checked her IP address, so he knew she was not simply a member posting under another name. But it will serve you to ignore this, as your nasty, bullying behaviour is then - what - justified?

You're right, Lisa 'Liz' - anyone can post as a Guest here. That's one of the reasons you got banned, remember? For repeatedly making up multiple identities for the purposes of provoking people and shit-stirring. You used to do it on the BBC board as well. Of course, there is fantastic irony in you getting into a high moral dudgeon and accusing a 15 year old girl, a new poster, of behaviour which you have persistently indulged in yourself.

Sadly, Daisy found her brief sojourn at Mudcat very unpleasant, thanks to you. It's a pity: she's very involved in the folk scene. She goes to festivals, ceilidhs, she has a boyfriend who is a morris dancer - she had a lot to contribute. But I shouldn't think she'll be back any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:00 AM

I was not unpleasant to 'Daisybell' either, merely telling her how lucky she was

And I am not unpleasant to Lizzie - despite her obscene language directed at me. I simply point out that her posts do not stand up to examination because they are often ill-researched and that she frequently threatens to leave Mudcat but never does. (Latest example just under two months ago and already posted).

And that she contradicts herself. Record so far - twenty minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

Bader is not just a hero of Lizzie's Dave, just one she happened to know personally.
He is recognised as a national hero of WW2.
All heroes have feet of clay.
His were tin.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM

Bader had considerably more grit than many local councils have today!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:22 AM

I am inclined to agree about heroes.

I once met one of mine. A more unpleasant person I could not have wished to have met.

I make an exception as far as the folk world is concerned. Mostly wonderful people, musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:26 PM

"You're right, Lisa 'Liz' - anyone can post as a Guest here. That's one of the reasons you got banned, remember? For repeatedly making up multiple identities for the purposes of provoking people and shit-stirring. You used to do it on the BBC board as well. Of course, there is fantastic irony in you getting into a high moral dudgeon and accusing a 15 year old girl, a new poster, of behaviour which you have persistently indulged in yourself."


No, it's not one of the reasons I got banned. I got banned because I wouldn't back down from the Traddies Witch Hunt.

What the hell is the matter with you, woman? WHERE did this paranoia about me come from?

I posted, and Joe knows this, under a few other names, when I was not allowed to post under my own. At no time did I try to 'disguise' my writing, nor did I *ever* use those guest names to be nasty to people, or abusive.

For fuck's sake, leave me alone. You are doing nothing but embarrassing yourself.

As for 'Daisybell'...again...this is all being blown totally out of proportion...and sorry, but it sounds like a complete set up to me. Go back and read those posts, I was not rude to 'Daisybell'. If you choose to read my words with a 'sneery' voice in your head,then they will come out sneery.

I gave Joe permission to read my PMs, he still has the permission, so he's read the ones from you, I'd presume. He also has my full permission, at all times, to read my replies.

You have turned this into some strange and weird internet game.

At no time, Joan, have I ever personally insulted your intelligence or your family, or been deeply personal, as you have to me. It was wrong of you, and your band of buddies, to reveal my name on the BBC, it went against every single one of their House Rules, what happened in their....That's why Diane was banned and you and Ralph were put into being watched at all times.

Do not come the holier than thou with me, because I have been way too insulted by you, even to the point where you threatened, here on Mudcat, to talk about Sam, to my then husband, during our divorce, when next you saw him at Sidmouth. How bloody weird is that?   I have never, ever done anything, or said anything like that to you or about you.

I suggest you see someone about this problem of yours, because it IS becoming one big problem in your life.   'Daisybell' is free to read whatever she wants, I have never stopped her, nor said anything to stop her....

Get over it, Joan, because this insatiable hatred of me is colouring your life in bad colours.

You have taken over Sidmouth, you've got Show of Hands eating out of your hands, you've done all sorts of things to 'have one up on me'....enjoy it, m'dear...but remember, as I told you in a PM, you wil never be the new 'Diane' to me, because Diane and I have always had a strange 'connection' that is fuelled by humour and a grudging respect for one another...It's why I never go beserk at her but meet her with humour, no matter what she's says....well,....apart from the occasional time of course...but Diane is a one off and can never be copied, so accept that...and move on with your life.

Better still, go and watch a Show of Hands concert...and then you might start to be a nicer person.


"What interesting heroes you have Lizzie."

Not really, Dave. Bader was a hero for many people. Of course, what you have written above there, about him, I could also write about you, when you are dead and gone....if I wanted to.

Douglas Bader had an arrogance about him, he had to, it is what got him to survive, but if you became his friend, then he was a Sweetiepie.

You will absolutely stop at nothing, will you...and again, as with Joan (Ruth) all you do is show others how obsessive you are.

May I politely suggest that perhaps the two of you book a double appointment with someone who can get you both to move on......it might work out cheaper..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:33 PM

386 posts all about this protest that will not happen.

How many of these posts are purely grown up mudcatters slagging each other off? 90% or higher?

Get a grip children!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:35 PM

Well, I did ask for this thread to be closed, Villan, but got shouted down for it....so...I er...asked for this thread to be left open, but er...got shouted down for it....

I'll leave it up to Joe, but quite honestly, I think it's now got so insane that it's way outrun its course...


Joe's decision...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM

Well, I did ask for this thread to be closed, Villan, but got shouted down for it....so...I er...asked for this thread to be left open, but er...got shouted down for it....

And once again you freely mis-represent what happened.

Between asking for the thread to be closed and asking for it to be opened there was precisly one message - so you were not shouted down for asking for it to be closed. There was no comment after you asked for it to be kept open either.

There was a comment posted by me saying changing your mind in the space of twenty minutes was a new record for you. This was factually accurate and contained details of the posts and their timings.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:57 PM

This would make more sense.

Well, I did ask for this thread to be closed, Villan, but got shouted down for it....so...I er...asked for this thread to be left open, but er...got shouted down for it....

And once again you freely mis-represent what happened.

Between asking for the thread to be closed and asking for it to be opened there was precisly one message - so you were not shouted down for asking for it to be closed. There was no comment after you asked for it to be kept open either.

There was a comment posted by me saying changing your mind in the space of twenty minutes was a new record for you. This was factually accurate and contained details of the posts and their timings.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:01 PM

Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:16 PM

PM him, Lizzie - It's more direct.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM

"You have taken over Sidmouth, you've got Show of Hands eating out of your hands, you've done all sorts of things to 'have one up on me'...."

That's right,Lizzie. Despite the fact that I have been working in folk for 20 years, I have engineered my entire career just to get at you. What a glorious mix of self-aggrandisement and delusion.

"Go back and read those posts, I was not rude to 'Daisybell'."

Well, don't take my word for it - here is what other Mudcatters had to say:

"Lizzie you want everyone to respect your point of view and spurious rantings but the minute a teenager comes on you manage to sneer at them and patronise them."

"Read your attacks on a fellow Mudcatter's daughter and then tell me you don't understand why you have been hounded in what you call a witch hunt... You really should be ashamed of yourself."

"i am also with you on lizzies responses to daisybell.
it takes courage to stand up to you lot and fight your corner."

"lizzie, i find your response to the anonimity of daisy and her mum outragous and frankly worrying."

"I don't understand why a grown woman would be so resentful of a child whose only crime seems to be that she is happy and successful. Daisybell and Mom - I too salute your patience and humor. Congratulations to both of you for a job well done."

"I too am greatly exercised as to why Lizzie WILL persist in putting quotes around this young woman's name, when she has been told repeatedly that it is regarded as disagreeable and unacceptable. WHY, Lizzie? What good do you think it does you & your cause to be so persistently, ostentatiously, contrarily, & UNNECESSARILY offensive?"

"Throughout we have seen nothing but calm reasoned statements from Daisybell and her mother, against overwhelming antagonism."



One of the reasons you were banned from Mudcat on at least one occasion was because you kept creating alternative identities for yourself, when you were specifically told that it contravened the posting rules. The BBC actually asked for other contributors to not respond to you, but to let a Mod know, every time they spotted one of your alternative identities.


Just to set the record straight: I did NOT reveal your name on the BBC messageboard.

I did NOT threaten to tell your husband about your internet affair. Why would I need to? You'd already splashed it (rather seedily and messily) all over every single folk website - butwhen you split, I DID say I might buy him a drink and congratulate him on a lucky escape.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

So bored of this cat-fighting now. It's destructive, and no one is going to win. Mudcat isn't for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM

Joe Offer said Dick Miles posted as a guest, and eventually got caught.
thats the first I know about it,
Please note , Dick has not posted regularly or irregularly, as a guest, he posts/posted under Captain Birdseye, and latterly under Good Soldier Schweik.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM

GSS, I think Joe was saying that you, when you posted while not logged in, got caught copy-pasting something that was longer than the allowed copy-paste one-screen amount. Not that you got caught posting as a guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:51 PM

oh my, all these misty bucolic reminiscences have left me with the Adjusters' theme and Dvorak's New World Symphony competing for supremacy in my head. However I also feel the need for an anti-emetic, and fast.

Liz, I am shocked that you would think only one person has feelings toward you so deep and so strong as to motivate them to call you 'Liz'

I can count several, not including me.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:12 PM

Dambusters' Theme

Not Adjusters...

Blackberry auto completion and the motions of the 17:55 Cardiff to Padding are conspiring against me.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM

STOP

You are pulling each other apart and giving Mudcat a bad name to go with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:23 PM

I have asked Joe to close this. And 400 seems an appropriate point.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:25 PM

4C - unless someonbe beat me to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:25 PM

Damn you and your fancy Sheffield ways:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM

It's the beer Dave. And the fact that we are sophisticated Yorkshire people.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:54 PM

"One of the reasons you were banned from Mudcat on at least one occasion was because you kept creating alternative identities for yourself, when you were specifically told that it contravened the posting rules."


And tell me, Joan, how do you know that?   I know it has utterly incensed you, to the point of weirdness, that Joe let's me post on here, but there you go. Get over it.

And tell me this, how come you didn't respond to 'eanjay' a few posts back, after she came on here saying pretty much what I've been saying all along about this march....

Anyone would think it was only me you were out to call 'racist' when you completely disregard the opinion of others that tie in with mine...



"The BBC actually asked for other contributors to not respond to you, but to let a Mod know, every time they spotted one of your alternative identities. "

The BBC did that AFTER I had written to them to tell them that if they did not answer my emails, explaining why they were letting you and your buddies put my real name down and say appalling things about me, then I would take over their board and cause mayhem. They did not respond and so I did exactly as I told them I would. After THAT, they then asked everyone to be on the look out for me.

I also asked them, in fact...BEGGGED them to send their Special Investigations Unit round, as they had threatened to do, because I had been asking them for YEARS to investigate the witch hunt that was going on. From time to time, I repeat that invitation, publicly as well, on my Myspace page, but guess what, they have never sent anyone around. Reason? They know there is way too much evidence on their board to wriggle out of what they let happen, which broke all of their own rules...and that is why you were put on 'watch' Joan, so that you could no longer say lies about me. You should, of course, have been banned, as should Ralph Jordan.

You know all of that, every single bit as I have put it on here several times over, yet still you spin the truth to fit your own agenda.



"Just to set the record straight: I did NOT reveal your name on the BBC messageboard."

Oh really? But hell, you joined in repeating it over and over, didn't you?

As to the rest of your contemptible post, it is not even worth rising to, because the more you lie, the more I realise that there is something not quite right here. However, despite you assuming you know more about my life than I myself do, I'd like to point out that you have no idea who Sam is, or my relationship to him, or if we are still in contact. It is absolutely none of your bloody business either...

As to the 'Daisybell' fiasco....well, as I said before, seems like the weirdest set up I ever did hear about on the internet....with a friend talking to her, then you emailing Joe, laying a line of people who could all agree that 'Daisybell' was who you say.....almost as if you wanted it all to happen...and then all those people saying all those things.....when I wasn't even rude to her...

Well, well......

Get over it, Joan, for your own sake, get over it.   


And folkiedave, I see you've now called for this thread to be closed too. Well, well, well, well...........

And just think, HAD it been closed way back, when I asked, then none of this would have happened, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:14 PM

And just think, HAD it been closed way back, when I asked, then none of this would have happened, eh?

Absolutely correct Lizzie and I was happy for it to be closed when you suggested. The difference is I haven't asked for it to be kept open one post and twenty minutes later.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:28 PM

I just need to get this straight, having been back to the 'Home Education UK' thread, in which 'Daisybell' appeared.

First of all, she was reading Mudcat, for the music, but never contributed to any thread, other than the Home Ed. one.

Secondly, I wasn't rude to her...in fact telling her over and again how lucky she was to have such a happy education, but pointing out that many children had the exact opposite and had a terrible time at school.

Then, after a long time, a few comments started coming in, mostly from people who er....aren't too fond of me....then....and this bit I missed as I'd already left that thread..then, 'Emma B' comes in, who has walloped me on numerous occassions, in an unpleasant manner, saying that 'Daisybell's Mum' had contacted her to get her to ring 'Daisybell' to substantiate that she was a 15 year old girl, the daughter of 'Daisybell's Mum'....(are you still following this?) ;0)....and then 'Daisybell' comes on thanking everyone for praising her courage at coming into Mudcat...(all the regulars again) and she disappears...never to write on here again...

Okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk


Now some of 'Daisybell's Mum's' replies to me were removed (don't know why), but the ones that weren't were very specifically aimed at me and about me..

Yeeesh, what a palava!

And then, on top of all that...it would seem that 'Daisybell's Mum' cut and pasted every single comment that was made by her pals just waiting for the right moment to put them down, which I presume was strangely, on a thread about an Islamic Extremist March...

Cool, huh?

Dave, do give it a rest, there's a dear...or take some aspirin or something...or read a book, or make love with the vicar's wife...*anything* but sit there counting how many minutes there are between my posts!

Someone phone the vicar's wife up and get her to call round, PLEASE!

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:36 PM

Any chance that you guys could start a perma thread called something like

Lizzie Cornish versus The Rest

Because as sure as eggs is eggs, you lot are ******* every thread up that has some issue and each thread is ruined by your incessant in fighting.

You are all as bad as each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM

But the bit I loved most about that thread, was that 'Daisybell' was telling me what a lovely school she went to etc and how schools didn't have the all the problems I was talking about...and then, her Mum admitted that they'd moved house PURELY so they could send 'Daisybell' to a good school!

Gadzooks, that must mean then, that their original local school was absolute shite..which is what I'd been saying all along...and yet I got lambasted for it...

Even cooler, huh?

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM

"Secondly, I wasn't rude to her...in fact telling her over and again how lucky she was to have such a happy education, but pointing out that many children had the exact opposite and had a terrible time at school."

No, you were sarky, rude and patronising, sneeringly implying that she led some sort of cushy, privileged life. You sneered at her "spiffing" life, you questioned her veracity about her exams and her social life, you questioned the validity of sending her to her single sex school, you implied that something must have gone wrong at her previous school for her to have moved to her current one...you were a complete bitch, basically.

"Then, after a long time,"

Of you sneering, dismissing and patronising her

"a few comments started coming in,"

Quite a lot, actually, if you look at the ones I posted earlier.

"then, 'Emma B' comes in, who has walloped me on numerous occassions, in an unpleasant manner, saying that 'Daisybell's Mum' had contacted her to get her to ring 'Daisybell' to substantiate that she was a 15 year old girl,"

Daisy was very upset that you insisted on implying that she was not a real person, but some sort of made-up identity. She asked how she could prove that she was who she said she was. I suggested maybe a Mudcat member that I was acquainted with could speak to her on the phone and substantiate the fact that she was a real person (unlike the many different fake identities you have created over the years).

"then 'Daisybell' comes on thanking everyone for praising her courage at coming into Mudcat..."

No, she thanked everyone who had been kind and supportive in the face of your nastiness and badgering. She hasn't posted again because she found the experience rather unpleasant. In other words, you bullied her off Mudcat. You, Lisa 'Liz', perpetual victim, were so bitchy to a 15 year old girl that she left. Well done.


"And then, on top of all that...it would seem that 'Daisybell's Mum' cut and pasted every single comment that was made by her pals just waiting for the right moment to put them down"

Um, no - just like you, I went and found the thread today. It's not hard. You claimed that you hadn't been unpleasant and nasty; I found the thread and simply copied all of the posts from various members who told you, in no uncertain terms, that you had.

Quite simple, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:50 PM

Ther you 2 go again

Please stop it

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:52 PM

I'm done.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

"But the bit I loved most about that thread, was that 'Daisybell' was telling me what a lovely school she went to etc and how schools didn't have the all the problems I was talking about...and then, her Mum admitted that they'd moved house PURELY so they could send 'Daisybell' to a good school!

Gadzooks, that must mean then, that their original local school was absolute shite.."


You really are such a nasty piece of work, Lizzie. This is categorically untrue. The reasons were given in the thread. I will not engage with you any more on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

Dave, do give it a rest, there's a dear...or take some aspirin or something...or read a book, or make love with the vicar's wife...*anything* but sit there counting how many minutes there are between my posts!

I don't need to count the minutes between your posts Lizzie. Just the minutes between you contradicting yourself.

And I have had a word with the Vicar and frankly he objects to the fact that you have suggested his wife is some sort of tart. I told him to bow to your greater knowledge of tarts.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:35 PM

I remember the "village green" thread.

I remember sticking up for Lizzie and in the process pissing Ruth off.

Now that I know them both better I doubt if I shall be sticking up for Lizzie again.

I will on the other hand pay more attention to Ruths advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Emma B
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:36 PM

"then, 'Emma B' comes in, who has walloped me on numerous occassions, in an unpleasant manner, "

Don't you come the 'innocent victim' with me Lizzie, Liz or Lisa or whatever you wish to or don't wish to be known as.

I have only ever posted to refute some of the absolutly appalling and grossly misleading inaccurate statements you have made in various posts here; but then anyone who disagrees with you is 'unpleasant' aren't they?

This Includes your allegations that all home educators were to be placed on the Child Abuse 'at risk' register and the 'fact' that anal intercourse was being taught in state schools as a form of birth control!

Total 'horlicks' as Dave would say! but then anything to back up your world view irrespective of truth!

I had made up my mind not to post to this forum again exactly because of the sort of attitudes displayed in your posts but I will not be dragged into your unpleasant 'poor little me' games in my absence!

Furthermore I have lived in England longer than you and resent you referring to it as your country all the time
It is 'ours' all those who live here and have made it what it is today not the mythical village green of some imaginary past.

Get a life Lizzie

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:05 PM

Jesus! I wish I could stop reading threads like this. I get drawn to them with a kind of fascinated horror, in much the same way, I suppose, as people who can't stop looking at the aftermath of a serious road accident, even though we all know we shouldn't.
And when all the protagonists are exhausted and have had enough , someone decides that they must needs have the last word, and off we go again on a never ending merry go round of claim and counter claim.
Will it never end?
I'm not part of this discussion, by the way. Just morbidly fascinated.
I need to get out more. Perhaps when the weather gets better?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:13 PM

A lot of us sometimes go off on a tangent occasionally, but this thread has turned very nasty. I have a request to the mods/Joe here. Please can we close this thread as it's meandering off the vertical and turning into a slagging match.

Now it has taken a new twist, it's turning into a witch hunt for guest posts from members (a lot are guilty of that if we trawl through old threads). Please close this thread and every accept eachothers apologies.

The bloody march isn't going to take place now anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:07 PM

Well, I can see that this thread has deteriorated....

thread closed.

-Joe Offer-