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The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??

Gutcher 05 Jan 10 - 10:25 AM
katlaughing 05 Jan 10 - 10:49 AM
Matt Seattle 05 Jan 10 - 01:37 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jan 10 - 04:05 PM
Gutcher 05 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM
Jack Campin 05 Jan 10 - 06:14 PM
Gutcher 05 Jan 10 - 08:38 PM
Gutcher 05 Jan 10 - 09:11 PM
katlaughing 05 Jan 10 - 10:17 PM
Diva 06 Jan 10 - 09:54 AM
Diva 06 Jan 10 - 09:55 AM
Diva 06 Jan 10 - 10:07 AM
Matt Seattle 06 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM
Gutcher 06 Jan 10 - 12:49 PM
Jack Campin 06 Jan 10 - 12:50 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM
Gutcher 06 Jan 10 - 08:21 PM
Matt Seattle 07 Jan 10 - 06:03 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM
Gutcher 07 Jan 10 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 07 Jan 10 - 12:10 PM
Matt Seattle 07 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM
Gutcher 08 Jan 10 - 09:08 AM
Jack Campin 08 Jan 10 - 10:01 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 10 - 03:21 PM
Jack Campin 08 Jan 10 - 07:41 PM
Gutcher 09 Jan 10 - 11:46 AM
Gutcher 09 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Jan 10 - 04:16 PM
Gutcher 10 Jan 10 - 06:05 AM
Diva 10 Jan 10 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,julia 10 Jan 10 - 08:20 PM
Effsee 10 Jan 10 - 10:51 PM
Gutcher 11 Jan 10 - 08:29 AM
Gutcher 11 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM
Gutcher 12 Jan 10 - 06:54 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM
Diva 14 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM
Matt Seattle 14 Jan 10 - 08:38 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Jan 10 - 03:55 PM
Matt Seattle 14 Jan 10 - 04:35 PM
Matt Seattle 15 Jan 10 - 07:55 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM
Gutcher 15 Jan 10 - 06:59 PM
Gutcher 16 Jan 10 - 08:38 AM
Matt Seattle 16 Jan 10 - 09:32 AM
Gutcher 16 Jan 10 - 11:42 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM
Gutcher 16 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM
Gutcher 18 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Jan 10 - 04:07 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Jan 10 - 04:21 PM
Gutcher 20 Jan 10 - 06:23 AM
Diva 20 Jan 10 - 11:11 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 10 - 12:43 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM
Steve Gardham 21 Jan 10 - 03:02 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Jan 10 - 03:15 PM
Gutcher 21 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM
Gutcher 21 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Jan 10 - 09:20 PM
Steve Gardham 22 Jan 10 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM
Steve Gardham 23 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 10 - 03:14 PM
Steve Gardham 23 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 10 - 09:07 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 24 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 10 - 08:06 PM
Steve Gardham 25 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM
Gutcher 09 Aug 13 - 06:51 AM
LadyJean 09 Aug 13 - 11:48 PM
Gutcher 11 Aug 13 - 07:49 AM
Gutcher 31 Jan 16 - 06:01 PM
Lighter 31 Jan 16 - 07:30 PM
Gutcher 01 Feb 16 - 09:31 AM
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Subject: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:25 AM

Hello All,
          Is there anyone out there who can tell me how to obtain
information from the Vatican archives.
I should imagine that such a request would have to be submitted
by a prestigious academic body to have any chance of obtaining
the required information.
David Kennedy created 1st Earl of Cassillis in 1509 would appear
to be the choice, his second wife being the Countess who eloped
If the archives could be checked for an annulment or divorce
granted to this Earl say between the years 1509-1513 it would
clinch the matter.
The story starts in 1507 & the events chronicled in the ballad
were supposed to have taken place in the summer of 1510.
                                                          Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:49 AM

It may be a rough go. I found this from HERE:

Vatican Library

The Vatican Library is open only to scholars who know precisely what they wish to consult. Visiting scholars need a letter from their university and two photos. Go directly to the Vatican entrance through Santa Anna's gate from 9 a.m. till 12 noon.


On the other hand there is also this from HERE:

A brief narrative description of the journal article, document, or resource: Because of space and staff constraints, the Vatican Library can issue only 2,000 reader cards a year. Describes IBM's Vatican Library Project: converting the library catalog records (prior to 1985) into machine readable form and digitally scanning 20,000 manuscript pages, print pages, and art works in gray scale and color, creating a database accessible to scholars throughout the world via the Internet.

You may be able to get help from The American Friends of the Vatican Library.

kat


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:37 PM

"The story starts in 1507 & the events chronicled in the ballad
were supposed to have taken place in the summer of 1510."

Intriguing, Joe - how do you know?


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:05 PM

Very interesting. I've just finished reading Sigrid Rieuwerts' 1991 paper 'Historical Moorings of 'The Gypsy Laddie'. Of course she makes connection between various Cassilis earls and the Faas, but doesn't go back as early as this. Good luck in your researches and please post your findings here.
Child cites Pitcairn, Ancient Criminal Trials in Scotland (3 vols edinb. 1833) which might be worth a look around this 1510 date.

Like Matt I would also be interested to know where you got your primary info.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

Thanks Kat,
             I was hoping that someone with access to the V.A.
   would pick up on this & make the enquiry.
                                           Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:14 PM

As I understand the protocol, the Vatican only got involved if a canon law decision was appealed. So if the bishop of Glasgow approved the annulment on first request, there would be no record of it outwith Scotland. Where the relevant bit of paper might well have fed a bonfire at the Reformation.

A canon law matter won't be in Pitcairn. The hanging of the Faas probably would be, but it's also the first place anybody researching this would look, so I wouldn't expect to find anything new there.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:38 PM

Hello Matt & Steve.
1. I am no scholar
2. Am a lifelong compulsive reader
3. Have a very retentive memory for items {written & oral} that are
    of interest to me {was able to pick up most songs at one hearing
    Had to request Geordie Murison to sing the same song twice,four
    years back, before I had it--am failing fast in my old age!!
4. Due to all the above I do not have notes of where my
    information can be found. {most of the books should be in the
    house.It will take a lot of reading to find the relevant pages
    also a lot of digging to find the books}

                      The Story.
             {It tells better verbally in my ain tongue}
    In the summer of the year 1507 a young lady of high degree in
    the East of Scotland was courted by a young man called John
    Fall {to this day in Ayrshire people called Fall or Hall
    would be called Faa {FAW} or Haa {HAW} "Johnie Faa" alt.
    title for the ballad.} Her father finding out the young mans
    intentions forbad him the house. Thereafter John Fall would
    sing in the gardens at dusk & the young lady would come out
    to be courted. The father soon found out what was taking place
    & locked her up. Shortly thereafter he married her off to David
    Kennedy laird of Cassillis. Two years after the marriage
    Kennedy was created 1st Earl of Cassillis probabily as part of
    the marriage settlement {bribe}
    In the summer of 1510 John Fall decided to pay his old
    sweetheart a visit, with six friends all dressed as gypsies
    they crossed the country to Ayrshire {gypsies would have more
    freedom to travel in those unchancy times}
    On arriving at the tower house of Cassillis near Ayr John Fall
    sung the song that he used to sing to let the young lady know
    that he was in the garden awaiting her. The young Countess
    recognized the song & the singer----------

    The ballad must have been composed by someone in the West
    who thought that the gypsies had thrown a spell on the lady
    with their singing.
   
    Robert Burns states that this was the only song he knew that
    could be claimed for Ayrshire.
                                  Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:11 PM

Hello Jack.
   I doubt if the hanging of the Faas would appear in Pitcairn
   as most Barons & Lairds had a right of Heritable Jurisdiction
   this would include at that time the right of Pit & Gallows.
   The right of Heritable Jurisdiction was abolished in the 1730s
   if my memory serves me right. At that time some of the
   descendants of the robber barons claimed rather large sums of
   money for the loss of their privileges
                                        Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:17 PM

I love learning about all of this. Thank you, Joe/Gutcher, and welcome to the Mudcat!


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Diva
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:54 AM

Joe welcome tae the Mudcat,


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Diva
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:55 AM

And I still haven't got round to reading Patterson's History of Ayrshire


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Diva
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:07 AM

Haven't seen the hanging in Pitcairn but if I get a wee minute on Saturday I'll hae a look, providing I can get tae work


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM

"And I still haven't got round to reading Patterson's History of Ayrshire"

Following your prompt Kathy I read the relevant bit online, he convincingly says who it wasn't but not who it was.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:49 PM

Having had some time to give the matter a bit thought I think
   the publication that may contain the required information would
   be one of the works published in the mid 19th C. by Chambers.
   As there are some 2 or 3 dozen of these somewhere about the
   house--------I may be some time.
   Incidentally one of these books contains a good article on Lord
   
   Derwentwater with a fine version of the ballad of the same name
   {how's that for an incentive to get all you good people reading
   during this sever winter weather}
   Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:50 PM

Heritable jurisdiction could be expensive. George Heriot's School in Edinburgh ended up with the right, by virtue of the lands they owned (previously held by such as Logan of Restalrig). At some point in the early 18th century the trustees of Heriot's actually got stuck with the responsibility of organizing a capital trial, or were about to (the case of Nicol Muschat? I'm not sure) and petitioned the city council to take the whole business off their hands as it was eating time and money they needed for educational purposes.

You'd think a school could take useful advantage of being able to sentence people to death (talk back to the teacher and get strung up in the quadrangle) but since they couldn't make any laws and had to involve lawyers, they had all the hassle and none of the fun.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM

Joe,
I am no scholar, but I have read a lot of what the scholars write and I can't imagine how Child and his collaborators in Scotland and all the scholars who have written on this since could have missed the info you post above. Therefore my own instincts tell me it is vitally important that what you say above can be verified in any way. As far as I can see they were all concentrating on the various intrigues between the Faas and later earls of Cassilis. I have most of Chambers' Journals and The Book of Days which have various ballad entries. It doesn't feature in any of the books I have by Robert Chambers.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:21 PM

Steve.
   Correct me if I am wrong.Did Prof.Child not give John, 6th Earl of
   Cassillis the honour of being his chosen villian in the ballad?
   If he did then he was surely in error & his scholarly collabs.
   sorely to blame.
   Paterson in Vol 2 of his History of Ayrshire Pub.1852 prints a
   letter from this Earl to the Earl of Eglinton dated 15th Dec.
   1642 appraising the latter of the death of his dearly beloved
   bedfellow & inviting him to attend the funeral on 5th Jan.1643
   The Earl & his Lady were married in 1621.
   The Earl married his second wife in 1644 & a son of this
   marriage became 7th Earl in 1668.         
   Sorry to cause you so much trouble checking books which may be
   the wrong source. I have been telling the story for a long time
   now without having to consult the source.
   Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:03 AM

"The story starts in 1507 & the events chronicled in the ballad
were supposed to have taken place in the summer of 1510"

It's a convincing story as you tell it, Joe. I would also be interested in your source. I would also not be disappointed if you can't find it, because, whether the ballad is founded on real events or not, we still have the ballad and its myriad tunes in their myriad forms.

This interesting page
http://www.maybole.org/history/books/CarricksCapital/countessandgypsy.htm
quotes Chambers, who goes with the 6th Earl.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

Sigrid Rieuwerts in her article 'The Historical Moorings of TGL: JF and Lady Cassilis, (p78f in The Ballad and Oral Literature, ed Joseph Harris, 1991) goes through all of the later machinations between Earls of Cassilis and the gypsies which include many hangings, but no elopements or abductions. If it's of any use I'll go back over it and see where she starts from. I'm pretty certain she doesn't cover the first earl though.

Does anyone know of any more recent papers on the subject?


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:01 PM

Thanks Matt.
How were you able to access
Patersons History of Ayrshire, one hour & ten minutes after Diva
posted the title?.
With my first post I was hopeing, [if the events had taken place
pre reformation] in view of the rank of the Earl, that the
Roman Church would have a record of interest in this matter.
Jack Campins post[above]would appear to rule this out.
I most certainly read of the event in the distant past & will
try to find the source.
Did you find Lord Derwentwater in your trawl of Chambers?
                                                          Joe.
_


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:10 PM

I didn't mean that it was ruled out, just that you can't count on the Vatican records for a definitive answer. If they did process an appeal they will have a record of it. (A fairly large proportion of canon law cases did go to appeal, the lower levels of the hierarchy seem to have operated in the classic bureaucratic style of always giving NO as the default answer and appeal was made a very efficient process to compensate).

Does the Scottish Peerage have anything relevant in it? It's not very reliable about women, but something like this ought be mentioned.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM

Joe

I had already looked up Paterson because 'Diva' had told me about him before - we are acquaintit ootwith the mudcat and she has told me she holds you in high regard.

I didn't trawl Chambers, just turned up that article with google.

It looks as if Sigrid Rieuwerts is the place to look for anything more recent, I haven't tried, Steve G will likely get back to us.

All intriguing stuff!


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM

Looking at Sigrid's paper it would appear that Child's main informant on this was MacMath and he offended MacMath whilst he was getting the info from him. It seems reasonable to assume that further info might be in MacMath's Mss which I think could be at Dumfries. I've just been looking at the Dumfries and Galloway Natural History and Antiquarian site and I think I saw Frank Miller did some research into Macmath's papers in the 30s.

p89 'Gypsies, or Romany, are generally supposed not to have entered Eng & Sc much earlier than 1500......thus our investigations must be limited to the 16th&17th cs.' Child mentions the first ref to Johnny Faa as of 1540 in Pitcairn. Famously when James V gave protection and immunity to Faa and his company, as 'Earl of Little Egypt'

From what I can see the paper seems to concentrate on 17thc links between the Cassilis and Faas, possibly because Child concentrates on this period and the popular tradition relating to the 6th Earl and his wife of which of course there is no inkling of an abduction or elopement.

I sympathise with Joe. Even though I hold extensive indexes I have snippets like this in folders all over the place and can't always lay my hands on them. Creeping senility doesn't help!


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:08 AM

Steve.
    My last post seems to have disappeard.
    In it I requested information on how to obtain width, as you
    have above, in a post. My next one would form rather a long
    ribbon. Simple instructions only please.
    Thanks,
    Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 10:01 AM

The narrow column width is being set by your browser, not Mudcat.

Looking at the HTML source for this page, each line of your post ends with

<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (a linebreak followed by three non-breaking spaces).

Mudcat doesn't insert that - it never adds linebreaks automatically or inserts &nbsp; at all, as far as I can see.   Your browser must be doing that. Switch to a different one.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:21 PM

Joe,
If you're anything like me Jack's message, helpful as it will be, might as well be in double dutch. What's a browser and how do you switch it?


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:41 PM

A browser is the program you use to access the web. Internet Explorer, Safari, Firefox, Opera, several others. They all do the same sort of thing but Internet Explorer (the most used, because it comes with any Windows computer) is the most likely to cause this sort of problem (and is the one you're likely to be using if you don't know what a browser is).

Do a google search for "Firefox download" and follow the instructions to get it working. Then use it instead of Internet Explorer.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:46 AM

Anent Gypsies.
Most of the stories I have I learned orally as a child from
relations, friends & from a marvellous teacher in an oot-bye
one teacher,country primary school.How this lady managed to
educate 25-30 pupils,in seven classes,never ceases to amaze me.
I never knew of any pupil who left that school who was not able
to read & write.Most of the stories are historically based &
over a lifetime of reading I have put flesh on the bones by
adding dates.
The Gutcher[S.E.Grandfather]would often tell of the walking
feats of his old folk, I incorporated this in the interesting
story [oral&historical]behind the old 17th C.ballad "Lord
Spynie" & was shot down by the educated audience who claimed
that walking 50 miles in one day was impossible.
This was 35-40 years back & I can still remember the feeling
when some 2 or 3 months later I was reading the autobiography
of Thomas Carlyle [a scholar&bookish man]there on page 39 he
states that the longest walk he did in one day,from Muirkirk
in Ayrshire to the town of Dumfries,was 54 miles. Given that
he may have been a few miles out I have felt since that time
that oral tradition should never be dismissed out of hand.      

To return to gypsies.
As I understand it they appear in the south of France in 1422
& from historical sources they cross over to Gallowa in 1452.
Anderson, whom I have consulted today for the 1st time, states
clearly gypsies mid 15th C.in Gallowa. My previous info.on this
   must have come from an other source.
This could have been Symsoun,Agnew, McKerlie or an other local
book. Not mentioned in Taylor or Tytler. Dick makes a vague
mention of a local tradition. The date can of course be worked
out from the history of the Earls of Douglas & the McLellands of
Bombie.
My arthritis does not allow me to access the books in my loft so
I cannot be more specific.
If there be any historical truth in the ballad John Fall was not
a gypsie & the Countess a lady of very high degree near sib to
the King.
          Joe.   
                                                                           
                                                                  
                           
                                                      
                                                          bye


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM

Sorry folk I ommitted the word Ireland in my previous post.

--   they cross over to Gallowa in 1452 from Ireland.----

David Kennedy,not then 1st Earl of Cassillis would be an aged man
at the
                                                               
time of his marriage in 1507. The young lady being a niece of
King James 111.
Question;---was the young lady pregnant & in urgent need of a
husband, John Fall not being allowed to marry her? Kennedy for a
good bribe[an Earldom]proving amenable.
The Kennedys lost Cassillis in 2009 after a period of 700 years
or so.
Joe


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:16 PM

Re walking the 50 miles in a day. This is easily achievable. The Lyke Wake Walk is about 50 miles and across rough terrain and most people of all ages complete this in well under a day, often overnight. I remember reading recently that Thomas Bewick the engraver of Newcastle used to go on such hikes fairly regularly.
An auld chap I recorded back in the 70s told me he used to cycle the 40 odd miles to Doncaster and back to go to work as a relieving officer.

Very interesting stuff, Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:05 AM

The following may be of interest.
   Reign of James 11 [1436-1460]
   Patrick McLellan of Bombie captured & beheaded by 8th Earl of
   Douglas 1452[this was a land grab by the Earl who terrorised
   all the smaller surrounding lairds who would not toe his line]
   The gypsies landed from Ireland shortly thereafter. James 11
   issued a proclamation offering the lands of Bombie to anyone
   who would bring him the leader of this band, dead or alive,
   Blackmorrow[blackamoor?]. This proclamation incited the true
   heir of Bombie, William McL. nephew of the tutor of Bombie[P.McL]
   to devise a plan to regain his lands.This plan succeded & young
   W.McL.[a youth of 16 or17] carried the head of B. to the king in
   the East & was reinstated in his lands.

   Only those parts in brackets have been inserted by me.The rest
   being from the article. Bracketed parts from other sources.

   P.S. I thought this machine was supposed to correct spelling
       mistakes.I have noticed a couple in previous posts.
    Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Diva
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:31 PM

Brilliant thread. I have been lucky enough to meet Sigurd Reiwerts (sp) when I was at the Crichton (JOE....at the Uni.....) and she is brilliant she gave a talk on the Gypsie Laddies and I was lucky enough to sing a couple of verses for her.

Meanwhile I picked up another varient at Denholm a couple of years ago that mentions Ayr


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: GUEST,julia
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:20 PM

We have several different variants here in Maine, one of which has the laird murdering the gypsy and lady at the end. Another has him going home to care for his baby and marrying another lady. Fascinating how this story/ song has morphed and yet maintained integrity.
Looking forward to more historical info
best -Julia


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Effsee
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:51 PM

Joe, I think I'm right in saying that the term Blackamoor was applied to Negro slaves who were used as servants rather than Gypsies.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:29 AM

Anent Blackmorrow, the king was so astonished at the sight of
   the severed head that he forgot about the promised reward, young
   Mclelland reminded him with the words "think on"
   McLelland assumed as his armourial arms[no doubt sanctioned by
   the Lord Lyon King of Arms.I will have to consult my friend Jim   
   on this, he being an authority & a member of the society that
   deals with these matters] the following:-
   An erect right hand,the hand grasping a dagger,on the point of
   which was a Moor,s head couped,proper;with the motto "Think On".

   It is my understanding that the early gypsies were--very--dark
   skinned.

   There must have been a large number of gypsies to induce the
   gallowa folk to send for assistance to the King. He at that time
   not being able to send the required assistance.
   Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM

Havent heard the version of G.L..that mentions you old
    stamping ground Diva. On the rare occasions that I sing this I
    sing a verse that mentions the river Doon. I understand that
    this verse is not too well known so I give it here:--

    Its when she cam tae the banks o the Doon
    the water was rouin drumlie o
    shes louted doon and taen aaf her shune
    tae wade it wi the gypsie laddies o.

    water in these parts rhymes with blatter
    Joe


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:54 PM

As someone who normally hibernates from November to March, may
   I take this opportunity to thank those who took an interest in
   the question.It has certainly shortened my winter.

   I have seen a few mentions that the Church,seeing the writing
   on the wall,removed a large number of the Scottish records to
   the Scots College in Paris & to the Vatican.
   An answer to the question may yet turn up.

1.Kennedy was an aged man when he married in 1507.
2.His new wife was sib to the KING.
3.The marriage settlement may have barred an annulment or divorce
4.Kennedy died in 1513 so he may not have had time to put the
   matter to the Church.
   Thanks all,
   Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM

Joe,
A long shot. Child 295 John of Hazelgreen. Have you come across anything in your searches on this one? I have a hunch it's at least partly based on real events. The only Hazel Green I can find in Scotland is a few miles SW of Newton Stewart. For various internal reasons I think the ballad is relatively modern, i.e., after the Union. Would Hazley Green have been part of the Garlies Stewart estate? Could John have been one of the Garlies Stewarts in the 17thc? If you have any info or interest it would be politic to start a new thread.

Best wishes and thanks for the current thread,
SteveG


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Diva
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM

Joe I got the "newer version" from Ian Dunsmuir and he said he'd heard it at Kilmarnock, but didn't recall the singer.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:38 AM

Thanks for the 'new' verse Gutcher! I'm very interested in Diva's too, if it/they are to hand.

I recently acquired a photocopy of Ramsay's text, the oldest known (1724 I think), which has no place names or personal titles, however an older version of the tune is in the Skene mandora ms (c.1620 acc to wikipedia) where it is called Lady Cassilis' Lilt. If the date is correct that does put it before the 6th Earl.

There's a lot more to be said on this one I think but I imagine Sigrid Rieuwerts has covered it?


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:55 PM

Matt,
Certainly in the paper I mention above Sigrid didn't cover it there.
Seems to me if someone can place the historical facts for what Joe has said this will add enormously to what we know about the ballad.

Has anyone verified that LC's Lilt is the same tune to the ballad as recorded from oral tradition? There must have been lots of Lady Cs. Unless someone has verified they are the same or even similar there is no real reason to connect the two.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 04:35 PM

In David Johnson's recent 'Scottish Fiddle Music in the 18th Century' DJ prints a version, Johnnie Faa, from Barsanti's Collection of Old Scotch Tunes, 1742, and adds the following information:

"This is the first written-down text of the tune, apart from a version in the Skene mandora-book of c. 1620 entitled Lady Cassillis Lilt, which Barsanti is unlikely to have known. Glen suggests that Barsanti notated the tune himself from aural tradition (Early Scottish Melodies, p. 120); perhaps his Scottish wife taught it to him. The words were printed in vol. vi of Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany (c. 1737)."

I've seen and heard the Skene version, it's the same tune as Barsanti. It also appears in James Johnson's Scots Musical Museum (Song 181) with lyrics similar to Ramsay's text. It's not the Jeannie Robertson tune heard today but you'll find it in Bronson.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:55 AM

Here are John Finlay's remarks, from his 1808 publication HISTORICAL AND ROMANTIC BALLADS, CHIEFLY ANCIENT, from
http://www.archive.org/details/scottishhistori02finlgoog

THE GYPSIE LADDIE.

As Mr Ritson had mentioned, that neighbour-
ing tradition strongly vouched for the truth of
the story upon which this ballad is founded, I
resolved to make the necessary inquiries, the re-
sult of which, without much variation, is as
follows:

That the Earl of Cassilis had married a noble-
man's daughter contrary to her wishes, she ha-
ving been previously engaged to another; but
that the persuasion and importunity of her
friends at last brought her to consent: That Sir
John Faw of Dunbar, her former lover, seizing
the opportunity of the earl's absence on a fo-
reign embassy, disguised himself and a number
of his retainers as gypsies, and carried off the
lady, "nothing loth :" That the earl having re-
turned opportunely at the time of the commis-
sion of the act, and nowise inclined to partici-
pate in his consort's ideas on the subject, col-
lected his vassals, and pursued the lady and her
paramour to the borders of England, where,
having overtaken them, a battle ensued, in
which Faw and his followers were all killed or
taken prisoners, excepting one,
        ----the meanest of them all,
        Who lives to weep and sing their fall.
It is by this survivor that the ballad is supposed
to have been written. The earl, on bringing
back the fair fugitive, banished her a mensa et
thoro, and it is said confined her for life in a
tower at the village of Maybole, in Ayrshire,
built for the purpose; and, that nothing might
remain about this tower unappropriated to its
original destination, eight heads, carved in
stone, below one of the turrets, are said to be
the effigies of so many of the gypsies. The
lady herself, as well as the survivor of Faw's
followers, contributed to perpetuate the remem-
brance of the transaction; for if he wrote a
song about it, she wrought it in tapestry; and
this piece of workmanship is still preserved at
Culzean castle. It remains to be mentioned,
that the ford, by which the lady and her lover
crossed the river Doon from a wood near Cas-
sillis house, is still denominated the Gypsies
Steps.

There seems to be no reason for identifying
the hero with Johnie Faa, who was king of the
gypsies about the year 1590. The coincidence
of names, and the disguise assumed by the lo«
ver, is perhaps the foundation on which popu«
lar tradition has raised the structure. Upon
authority so vague, nothing can be assumed;
and indeed I am inclined to adopt the opinion
of a correspondent, that the whole story may
have been the invention of some feudal or po-
litical rival, to injure the character and hurt the
feelings of an opponent; at least, after a pretty
diligent search, I have been able to discover
nothing that in the slightest degree confirms
the popular tale.

Another source
http://www.maybole.org/history/books/legends/johnnyfaa.htm
concludes with:
"And therefore the most that can be said for the ballad now is that it is a fairly good specimen of the class of songs which delighted our ancestors. Historically, it is absolutely worthless, and worse, it is absolutely untrue."

I'm not trying to prove anything myself, I don't have a vested interest in the story being true or untrue. So, a strong local tradition in 1808, but no corroboration; the tune consistently linked with the lyric by having Johnie Faa or Lady Cassilis as its title goes back to 'c.1620'; the earliest dated lyric is 1737.

But I've seen the Maybole heads myself (I don't know if anyone has seen the tapestry so often mentioned) and was told they were the gypsies' heads - is it all made up, including the heads?


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM

Excellent stuff, Matt. This only then confirms what I said earlier, if Joe can find his references this would be ground-breaking.
Was there such a personage as 'Sir John Faw' of Dunbar and if so can we date him?


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:59 PM

If the name Fall,Faa or Faw were to be found in any document pre
   1452 this would at least show where the gypsie name Faa came
   from as the gypsies must have adopted local names in whichever
   country they happened to find themselves.

   Does Sigurd Reiwerts make any mention of gypsies in Ireland or
   Scotland pre 16th century?
   Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:38 AM

Paterson states the air to which the ballad was sung was
   recorded in the early part of the 17th century.This gives no
   clue as to how long it may have been in existance prior to that
   period.
   A Jacobite song "A Wee Bird Cam Tae Oor Haa Door" has long been
   sung to this tune & may have been written to suit it.
   A private note[thanks Jim]confirms that there is
   an extended article in Chambers on the gypsies & this brought
   me in mind of another in the same source,unfortunately neither
   of these articles are the source of my information which may
   be any time between 40 & 60 years back.
   Joe,


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 09:32 AM

"A Wee Bird Cam Tae Oor Haa Door" is the first line of the song better known as "Wae's Me For Chairlie":
Written [c.1820] by Will Glen of Glasgow (1789-1826) who set it to the old air of Johnnie Faa [or Gypsy Davy]
- it says here

The Faas have long been associated with Yetholm in the Borders - but I don't know how long.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 11:42 AM

The article in Chambers states---the colony of gypsies long
   established in Yetholm,Roxburghshire,always claimed to be of
   the same stock with the Faws or Falls, a family of respectability
   settled in East Lothian[North of Yetholm].
   As a mere hewer of wood &[at present,literally] drawer of water,
   {the well,the source of our water supply never freezes,feeds to
   the house by a pipe which runs under a tarmac road & this pipe
   has been frozen for 10 days],I do not have the know- how or
   resources to access the ancient records.
   Some of you folks out there may be better able to do this.
   Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM

Joe,
Did you see my request about 10 postings back re John O Hazelgreen?

Just Googled 'Sir John Faw of Dunbar' and came up with some useful and interesting websites. One is a book by Walter Simson 'The Falls of Dunbar and their Descent from the Gipsies'. Unfortunatley I could only access the first page as you have to be a member of JStor or have library access to read it all, but it does mention useful things relevant to our discussion. Another site 'History of Gipsies in Scotland' gives the usual 6th Earl info, Hamilton, and links this with John Faw of Dunbar. This does claim there were bands of 'Saracens' in Scotland in the 1460s and because of their skin colour the populace would have identified them as Saracens at the time. Apparently they took on the guise of pilgrims all over Europe and this is how they manged to keep their status for so long without a great deal of molestation.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

Hello Steve,
             am ploughing my way through McKerlie to see if I can
   glean anything anent J.O.H. Have asked friends in that area if
   there are any traditions in the area.Also any place called
   Hazelgreen.
   A place called Taperbank is mentioned in one version this may
   prove harder to locate.
   Biggar is mentioned in two versions. This would be the town of
   Biggar which lies on the direct route from Gallowa to Edinburgh.
   Edinburgh, mentioned in three versions.The real landed gentry
   all had town houses in Edinburgh down to the 19th century.
   Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM

So many questions so few answers.

   Another.
   At the time in question King James 11[1436-1460] passed a law
   against sorners & sturdy beggars, Why?
   Could this have been his response to the complaints from Gallowa.
   It is almost certain that the strangers were not called gypsies
   at that time. They may have been known as saracens,blackamoors,
   sorners or sturdy beggars.
   Earl Douglas was not in residence in Gallowa at the time in
   question,such was his power that I am sure he never would have
   clyped to the King but would have taken the necessary measures
   to clean up his ain midden.
   I have accessed the Ragmans Roll[c.1298]but as yet have been
   unable to get at the names contained in that document.This in
   my search for Faa,Faw or Fall.
   Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:07 PM

Joe,
Why are you going as far back as 13thc? If there were Falls in the 16th century that's all we need.

   'At the time in question King James 11[1436-1460] passed a law
   against sorners & sturdy beggars, Why?'

At the risk of being accused of being racist, the answer must surely be, as with the 17th century laws passed by later Jameses, the gipsies, or whatever title they were given, were perceived as thieves and vagabonds. Their posing as pilgrims would tend to back this up.

Again guessing but could the term 'Gypsies' be derived from the fact that their dwelling place was known as 'Little Egypt' rather than the commonly perceived idea that it derives from 'Egyptians'? or both? I wonder where the earliest use of the name 'Gypsy' appears.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:21 PM

Re John O Hazelgreen.
Joe,
As I said before I have been through all the OS maps of southern Scotland and the only Hazley Green I found was a couple of miles SW of Newton Stewart so it may be connected to the Garlies Stewarts.
If there is any fact in the song I'd say it surely must be after the Union. Even a lord couldn't wander leisurely across the lowlands in such a way for very many periods before that. The very fact that the ballad contains no conflict of any sort goes against the grain of the ballad stories. There is an old pack road going almost direct from Newton Stewart to Biggar and then Edinburgh.

I conjectured that a younger son of a laird would have been given some land of his own and perhaps be expected to marry into a wealthy family, but the pressure wouldn't have been so great on the younger son as on the eldest. The fact that the father went off to find the son's sweetheart and test her fidelity is perhaps a bit far-fetched to be of a real event? What do you think?

Needless to say don't even look at the Peter Buchan version unless you want a laugh!


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:23 AM

Steve,
    McKerlie has the following:--
    William Boyd,Laird of Myrtoun[2 miles west of Newton Stewart]
    minister of the parish of Penninghame had sassine[booked as
    owner] of the lands of HALSEGREEN Sept.1778.
    No other information given.

    The following with regards to the name FALL may be of interest.
    When I bought my first house in the early 60s the linear
    measure for the land in the title deeds was in old Scots
    measure as follows:--
    length-- so many Falls so many Ells & parts of an Ell
    breadth--do..    do..   do..    do....
    I knew what an Ell was but had no idea what a Fall was
    "Standard" Ell==39inches
    Scots weavers Ell==42inches
    English weavers Ell==45inches
    I measured the plot,reduced the measurement to inches &
    divided by these three measures----
    from the deed sizes--one Fall==5 Scots weavers Ells.
    In earlier times it seems a Fall was also an area of land.
    Could the surname have come from this?
    Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Diva
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 11:11 AM

From Black's Surnames of Scotland…..
FAA, FAW, FALL Three spellings of one name. Faa is or was a common surname among the Border Gypsies (Groome, Gazetteer 1 p 408) and Faw was the spelling in Shetland. Sir David Faw was chaplin of Rosemarkie 1451 (OPS II p 582)
Dr Fae or Falle was principle of Glasgow University in later quarter of 17thC (RPC 3. serxii p522) Wm Fall burgess in Montrose 1672 Robert Faa was alte ballie ofMelrose 1692 (RRM iii p114) Robert Fall or Faa was member of Scots Parliament for Dunbar 1693 and Robert Fau feuaer in Coldstream 1830


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 12:43 PM

"Needless to say don't even look at the Peter Buchan version unless you want a laugh!"
Had a look but couldn't see anything funny - maybe I was distracted by the sound of axes being ground.
Used to think it strange that MacColl still had his detractors 20 years after his death - but a century and a half seem s a little excessive, based on no evidence whatever.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM

===Again guessing but could the term 'Gypsies' be derived from the fact that their dwelling place was known as 'Little Egypt' rather than the commonly perceived idea that it derives from 'Egyptians'? or both? I wonder where the earliest use of the name 'Gypsy' appears.===

Steve -
OED gives a 1514 ref to 'people calling themselves Egyptians' [tho the Dict unequivocally declares them to be of 'Hindu origin']. Variants of the term, e.g. 'gipcyans', gipsons', 'gipsen' {respectively Cromwell, Nashe, Spenser} appear from 1530s on. Seems to have been well-established by time Shax used 'gypsies' in AYLI [c 1600].


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:02 PM

Jim,
Buchan, Child, Sharp, MacColl were not gods, not perfect and there's absolutely nothing wrong with criticising any of them. They all did good things and they all made mistakes. We are also perfectly entitled, nay should be encouraged, to conjecture about what those mistakes were. I find the introduction of the 2 dream sequences in Buchan's overbaked version of JOH rather typical of the interference he makes in most of his versions of ballads. Child generally did the same although fell silent on them after a while. I could conjecture on why he fell silent, but I'll restrain myself, and only add what is certain is he didn't change his mind like William Walker did.

Jim, the only evidence I need is right there in the ballads themselves and a few interesting statistics which I haven't got time for here.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:15 PM

Joe,
Sorry about that little outburst! It's something that crept in from other threads. Very interesting stuff about Boyd and Halsegreen. If you can find who had it in the first half of the 17th century (guess) it could prove even more interesting.

Regarding 'Fall', from Diva's post it would seem that the surname was well established before the Gypsies arrived. That some of them would adopt an existing respectable surname seems like a reasonable gambit to me. Of course intermarriage is also a possibility.

Michael, I would have thought that immigrants like these would quickly adopt any name they were being called and repeat it but I'm not going to argue with the OED!


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM

Sir George Mackenzie of Rosehaugh published a book c.1660 that
    is mentioned as containing information on how the McLellands
    were granted their arms as mentioned in a previous post.
    I have been looking for a read at this book for some years now
    in connection with an old song from the early part of the 16th C.
    so it looks like I will have to make the effort & pay a visit
    to the N.L.S. in Edinburgh. An added incentive is that the same
    source mentions an old book on the gypsies in the time of the
    Stewarts.
    There is no doubt in my mind that the gypsies adopted names
    local to where they resided---Gordon,Johnston,Marshall Stewart
    etc. etc. {aa Stewarts are nae sib tae the King.}
    Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM

Sorry folks the end of the fifth line should read---17th C.
    Joe.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 09:20 PM

Michael, I would have thought that immigrants like these would quickly adopt any name they were being called and repeat it but I'm not going to argue with the OED!===

Quite, Steve. I was expressing no opinion as to origins, but just trying [via OED which usually trustworthy re first recorded usages] to answer yor previous ? as to when word actually first used.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:29 PM

Joe,
You're really making me envious now. I'd love to visit the NLS but time, distance and funds don't allow. I have to make do with what they've put online. I get to the BL on occasions as my sons live in London.

On another note do you have copies of any Transactions of The Dumfries & Galloway Natural Hist & Antiquarian Socy booklets? Or know of where I can obtain copies cheaply? They are online on JStor but not being an academic I don't have access. They contain some interesting articles on balladry and collections by Frank Miller who was one of the collectors who helped Child.

My most interesting visit to Edinburgh was about 5 years ago when in a bookshop I found Chappell's OWN copy of Popular Music, just vol 1, but inside were a load of manuscripts in his writing and correspondence between him and Ebsworth, a mss copy of William and Margaret, and a load of newspaper obits of Chappell. I think they had all belonged to his daughter then Edin Uni. How they found their way into the bookshop I don't know but going by the cheap price I paid the bookseller had no idea what they were.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM

Steve;
"Buchan, Child, Sharp, MacColl were not gods, not perfect"
No, they were not - but both of them have been dead for some time and both made considerable contributions to our understanding and enjoyment of traditional song.
There is certainly nothing wrong with critically evaluating their work, but repeatedly debunking it and treating it as just good for a laugh without additional information seems, to me at least, little more than stoning corpses.
As far as John O Hazelgreen is concerned, I've never found it a particularly inspiring ballad, but there is no evidence that the 'dream' references (hardly sequences) provide proof that they are "rather typical of the interference he makes in most of his versions of ballads". The 'love through dream' motif is a common one in balladry and folklore (Stith Thomson T11.3), and while it is not used particularly well here, like many of the accusations thrown at the late Peter Buchan, there is no evidence whatever that they were his own creations.
Bucan writes of the ballad "This appears to be the original ballad of the name"; it seems to be that accusing him of faking it is little better than saying he was a liar. Without substanting the accusation, it is neither fair nor productive.
I often think that Buchan got the flak that he did because his collectition deflated many pre/misconceptions about balladry, and is still doing so in some quarters.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM

And you are prefectly entitled to your opinion, Jim. Having studied all of PB's versions and compared all of them with the other extant versions and studied all of his manuscripts I have a rather different opinion which happily happens to coincide with Child's and William Walker's before Child died.
I happen to have as great a regard for all of these people as you have. I just happen to think that taking all of their work as coming from the mouths of the people is dangerous and misguided.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 03:14 PM

"I just happen to think that taking all of their work as coming from the mouths of the people is dangerous and misguided."
I don't Steve - I just say we don't know, and if we don't know we don't make definitive statements, especially when they belittle the work of others.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

Good point, Jim.
I will try to make sure I add that these are only my own opinions, and the opinions of Child and others.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:07 PM

"I will try to make sure I add that these are only my own opinions, and the opinions of Child and others."
Fine, Steve - as long as you are prepared to present the full picture.

"Gruntvig
His published collections are, taken together, and compared with the contributions of any single collector, the richest source in this branch of folk-lore out of all that up to this day have appeared before the British public. . . .
That Mr. Buchan has not published his ballads with that scrupulous accuracy, that strict and verbal adherence to the popular tradition, as might be wished, and which may now be demanded, we are ready to confess ; but he certainly has done no worse in that respect than all the ballad editors of England and Scotland, with the exceptions of Mr. Ritson, Mr. Jamieson, and perhaps one or two more. His merits in preservation of the old Scottish folk-lore are so great, that he certainly ought to be treated in a less slighting manner than has been the case . . .
Arguing for the publication of Buchan's MSS., Gruntvig went on
There are reasons to suppose the published versions to be in some respects less authentic and genuine than are the MSS. from which they were taken ; these Mr. Buchan has kept close to the form in which they were taken down from oral tradition; but in publishing them himself he has no doubt taken some liberties with them to make them more suitable to the taste of the day."

"Keith
The late Professor Child, who has been cited by some of the accusers of Buchan as their most redoubtable ally, took up, in reality, an intermediate attitude. Careful examination of Child's work reveals that he never committed himself to a condemnation of Buchan, although he constantly condemned passages in Buchan's ballads which he considered modern importations or examples of decadence and vulgar fancy. Gruntvig's attitude, and the testimony of independent Aberdeenshire ballad versions procured from unpublished MSS., were sufficient to make a discerning and cautious critic like Child pause before he rejected Buchan's contributions. Child did more than pause. By inference at least he accepted Buchan as substantially reliable, and gave him the place of honour with a frequency denied to most of the other great collectors. Child, however, as late as 1891 was under the impression that the British Museum MSS. were all in Buchan's handwriting, and he did not live to see the MS. from which the 1828 Ballads were selected. Had he been able to compare the Ballads with their MS. originals, and had he been spared to see the collection made by Greig, it may be confidently asserted that the prince of ballad-editors would have been on the side of Peter Buchan."

We should not forget that Buchan's contemporaries in the field of ballad scolarship (far more in the position to judge than we are) supported his work absolutely.
Nor should we forget that Child was one of those 'foolish people' who differentiated between 'broadside dunghills' and the genuine songs of the people.
I am not claiming to be right on this question - I, like you, don't know the answer to the Buchan enigma, just as I don't know which, (if any) of our ballads and songs originated on the broadside presses.
What I am saying is that giving the impression that we DO know by delivering definative statements is neither helpful nor honest.
And I certainly believe that one of our most important ballad collections (see above) is worth far more than a bit of a larf!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

Jim,
I certainly don't agree with your 2 main sources here.

I am very suspicious of Grundtvig's motives and knowledge of Scottish balladry. Whilst I envy the hundreds of Danish ballads he collected and published (many of them from broadsides but more than twice as many than child)he had already published in c1846 Engelske og Skotske Folkeviser which included a number of translations of Buchan's texts. He was hardly likely to admit he had been fooled.

'in some respects less authentic and genuine than are the MSS from which they were taken' The mss, which I have copies of, are just a publisher's proof of what was published. There are no Mss in the form of field notes or versions as collected. No wonder he couldn't sell them.

Keith is quite wrong when he states Child took up 'an intermediate attitude' Before Gruntvig has a go at him he absolutely slated Buchan, and it's worth reading Child Vol 5 p182 in the notes to Young Ronald if you want to know what his final thoughts on the matter were.
Child only included Buchan's stuff because he wanted to be totally inclusive and give everything available for later scholars to make up their own minds. The BL Mss is just a fair copy of ballads already published. The Harvard Mss is as I've said a publishers proof of the 1828 vols. Keith was in the pocket of William Walker who had turned coat completely when Child died. For what reason I don't know.

The 'bit of a larf' as you know was a piece of witless sarcasm which I regret, but there are many ballads and versions in Child that have come under suspicion over the last century. As I have already said Child was well aware that by using his inclusive policy he was including a lot of at worst bogus material, at best collated. Please read the statement referred to above.

And now I must apologise to Joe once again for hi-jacking his thread.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM

Re Macmath´s MSS.

I don´t know where the originals are, but Edinburgh University Library has a microfilm.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM

Thanks very much, Jack.
Harvard seems a pretty safe bet. I wonder if they've been published. I don't remember seeing anything.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 08:06 PM

As I said Steve, neither of us know, and probably never will - so we don't make definitive statements - witless or otherwise.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM

Jim,
Apart from the controversial beliefs that I hold, I also enjoy stirring things up. If somebody who can doesn't do this from time to time the academics in their ivory towers plod blindly on accepting everything they're fed as gospel.
It's also an interesting way of learning and testing out your theories, getting somebody to argue them out with you (IMHO).


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 06:51 AM

Restoration Homes--a programme to be shown on BBC2 Scotland tonight at 7pm. is about Cassillis Castle.
The new owner, a Ms. Armstrong, was not able to state which version of the story behind the "Gypsie Laddies" would be given in the programme, when I enquired some three weeks back.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: LadyJean
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 11:48 PM

I was named for my father's mother, Jean McFall. The McFalls came to the U.S from Londonderry. But I'd be rather amused to discover that my forbearers were Roma. That branch of the family was rather dour.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 07:49 AM

Lady Jean--the Falls were around in Scotland before the gypsies arrived in Britain-- the Mcfalls in Ulster were probably from Scotland before their move West to the U.S.A.

In the event Ms. Armstrongs vagueness on the subject of the historical/legendary content of the television programme was justified as the programme made no mention of the ballads connection with the castle or with the roasting of the Abbot of Crossraguel etc..


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 06:01 PM

No further developments on written confirmation of the above.

Reading has thrown further light on when the gypsies were first recorded in Scotland:---see my posts under Guest, 4/1/2015 and onwards, then Gutcher, in the thread, "Origins: Help with Gypsy Davy" 1439 date for a mention.

Reading has come up with a verse I have not encountered before, can anyone tell me if this verse is in any of the collected versions?.

[ex] There is a tradition extant, that Lord Cassilis' lady, who eloped with Johnnie Faa, the gipsie laddie, had so delicate and pure a skin, that the red wine could be seen through it while she was drinking. This is embodied in a verse of the ballad:---

         "Fu white, white was her bonny neck,
            Twist wi the satin twine;
          But ruddie, ruddie grew her hawse,
            While she supp'd the bluid--red
             wine.


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:30 PM

The new stanza is quite something, Gutcher. Personally I've not encountered anything like it. Where did you find it?


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Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
From: Gutcher
Date: 01 Feb 16 - 09:31 AM

hello Lighter.
The statement and verse are given in a mid 19th.C, Book of Scottish Anecdote at page 153. Unfortunately the editor does not give his source


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