From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM

Nancy Blair does not seem to appear in other versions of "South Australia," "Rolling King," etc.

Several women's names appeared in sailors songs.
May just be coincidence without relation to the Christy's song by Dick Wilson.

(Ok, Ok, comments like this one serve no purpose.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:54 AM

John-

Here's another historical note on the pumping shanty "South Australia" based on the title of a popular minstrel song in CHRISTY'S PANORAMA SONGSTER, published by William H. Murphy, NYC, NY, circa 1850. p. 129. The song is titled "Nancy Blair" and other than her name shares no lines with any version of the shanty I know. However, "Nancy Blair" is mentioned by name at least twice in "South Australia" verses recorded by A. L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl (from an old sailor Ted Howard of Berry) on Blow Boys Blow, and the name might well have been inspired by the minstrel song as the crew were pumping their way to or from Australia:

As I walked out one morning fair,
Heave away, haul away,
It was there I met Miss Nancy Blair,
An' we're bound for South Australia. (CHO)

There's just one thing that grieves me mind,
Heave away, haul away,
To leave Miss Nancy Blair behind (the polite version!)
An' we're bound for South Australia. (CHO)

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:04 AM

Here is where I saw "Ballarat" in connection to a shanty - scroll down to"Cheer boys cheer":

http://warrenfahey.com/maritime-2.htm

The verse is:

On the fields of Ballarat
You're scarce allowed to wear a hat
Cheer boys cheer
For this new and happy land

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM

Here is some excellent discussion on "Stormalong" from Gibb and others over at the "Rare Caribbean" thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=218&page=4&desc=yes#2605339

Charley, "Shallow Brown" was the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw "Yankee Dollar", too. But there seems to be a lot of variety on the currency issue in "Shallow Brown". I've seen and heard "Spanish Dollar" as well and was assuming that it was earlier, but I haven't done the work on this yet. My sense is that someone is being sold to a "Yankee" in some versions. But the story is quite different from "working for a Yankee dollar".

I also wondered about "Pay Me My Money Down", but I haven't found any crossovers on this yet. Anybody else have an idea on either of these possibilities with regard to "Yankee Dollar"?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:59 PM

Rowan, thanks for this information. There is so much about this period and the interchanges between the two countries that I know nothing about. I think it is the case that Australians came to California to dig gold and then returned to Australia, to dig gold there. And of course Americans went with them! I think the rowdy bunch on Pond's first voyage that caused him so much trouble was probably a mixed group of returning Australians and Americans headed for the Australian gold fields. This trip took place in 1853, with the "Julia Ann" arriving in Sydney on August 5.

Have I seen "Ballarat" in relation to a shanty somewhere?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:43 PM

Reading through the thread has prompted a few thoughts, which may be thread drift but may lead to other biographies.

1 Australian miners on the Californian goldfields in the early 1850s were responsible for the introduction of the secret ballot, known at the time as the Australian Ballot. It's unlikely that any biographies in the US will necessarily draw any links or references to shanties but, you never know.

2 Many Americans became miners on the Australian goldfields and, during the battle of Bakery Hill, celebrated as the Eureka Stockade uprising on the Ballarat goldfields, there was even an "American Brigade". The members of this Brigade were, like the rest of the surviving miners, charged with treason but ultimately no convictions were reached. Many of the "Australians" (some were Italian, for example) apparently thought that The Americans had 'got off' because of legal shenanigans but that's a different story. The reason I mention it is that there may be biographies written by some of those in the American Brigade; there are several from "Australians" but they wouldn't have sailed across the Pacific, while the Americans surely would have.

3 Seriously 'thread drift'. Peter Hyde was a merchant seaman working container ships across the Pacific between Sydney and San Francisco in (at least) the 1980s-90s. He would pick up concertinas for repair in one port and repair them on the return trip to that report. There are several entertaining stories about his exploits that have been made, by Arthur Bower, into a song that uses Lachlan Tigers as its tune. Arthur (who plays both English and Anglo leather ferrets) and Peter both hail from Adelaide and Peter now makes very excellent button accordions under the name Stormalong.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:21 PM

John-

That's a hard one to answer because there is a well known West Indies shanty called "Shallow Brown" which also has a line about working or being sold for the Yankee dollar, and there is a Calypso sung which also has a line about "working for the Yankee dollar." So Goggle searches are going to turn up thousands of hits.

However, I do wonder if the "Yankee Dollar" that Nordhoff noted is related to the shanty version of "Pay Me My Money Down," collected in the West Islands.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:35 PM

Charley, I want to talk about all three of the other songs mentioned by Nordhoff: "Yankee Dollar", "Fire Maringo" and of course "Highland Laddie". I think all of his material could qualify for the timeframe of the "Julia Ann". So, who knows what about "Yankee Dollar"? Here are the lyrics as Nordhoff has them:

    Oh, we work for a Yankee Dollar,
Ch: HURRAH, SEE - MAN - DO,
      Yankee dollar, bully dollar,
Ch: HURRAH, SEE - MAN - DO,
      I want your silver dollars,
Ch: OH, CAPTAIN, PAY ME DOLLAR.   

Here is an intriguing reference from A HISTORY OF MUSIC & DANCE IN FLORIDA, 1565-1865 By Wiley L. Housewright, page 289:

http://books.google.com/books?id=YIYXAQAAIAAJ&q=Oh,+we+work+for+a+Yankee+dollar&dq=Oh,+we+work+for+a+Yankee+dollar&cd=10

I don't have this book but I'll sure take a look at it next time I go to the library. Has anybody seen it?

And here is an intriguing reference that I haven't been able to date or put into context. I think it is fiction and perhaps recent. It's from THE LENORE: A MARITIME CHRONICLE, by Terence O'Donnell (page 286). Does anybody have more information on this one:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jO0CcdwBRP8C&pg=PA286&dq=Oh,+we+work+for+a+Yankee+dollar&lr=&cd=6#v=onepage&q=Oh%2C%20we%20work

It looks like it came right out of Nordhoff. Does Hugill mention this song anywhere? And is it to be found in any other collection? I have looked and haven't found it but I may have missed it.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:04 PM

John-

I think you're making headway with Stormalong as a pumping shanty for the 1850.

"Fire Maringo" also was mentioned by Nordhoff as a stevedore shanty for screwing cotton, which was may have been used later as a halyard shanty; we have no idea what the original tune was, only the way it was reset to a tune "channeled" by Royston Woods of the Young Tradition in 1967.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM

I have already suggested that the third and fourth voyages of the "Julia Ann" provided plenty of opportunity for the use of some pumping shanties, since the "Julia Ann" sprung a leak in the harbor at Sydney on her third voyage out because she was thrown on the shore by a "buster". One of the pumping shanties I have suggested is some version of "Stormalong". See here:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=1#2814669

In his book THE MERCHANT VESSEL, first published in 1857, Charles Nordhoff tells of his experiences on a merchant vessel. While he does not specifically date them one would assume that these experiences happened within a few years prior to 1857, which would put them in the same time frame as that of the "Julia Ann", which was ship-wrecked in October of 1855.

Nordhoff describes the loading of cotton in Mobile, and gives us three "chants" used by the gangs of "screw men" to pack this cotton into the ship's hold. While in Nordhoff's context these songs are used as "cotton-screwing" songs, we know that they were also used at sea as shanties. Many of these "screw men" were Bristish and Irish sailors who went south to work in the winter time. The first of these songs is "Old Stormy", a version of "Stormalong" (page 41):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kko9AAAAYAAJ&dq=Charles+Nordhoff,+The+Merchant+Vessel&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=CU3NFxy

"Old Stormy" also shows up in Alden's article in Harpers (1882) that we have been discussing (on page 284):

http://books.google.com/books?id=SsoaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA284&dq=To+me+way+storm+along!&lr=&cd=8#v=onepage&q=To%20me%20way%20storm%20al

And out on the other end, in Australia, "Mr. Stormalong" shows up in the singing of both George Pattison and Malcolm Forbes:

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s23.htm

So not only am I suggesting that "Stormalong" might have been used as a pumping shanty on board the "Julia Ann", I am also saying that historically, it is certainly possible that it could have been there.

I would be interested in seeing some of the possible earlier versions of "Stormalong" or its precedents from the so-called " 'Ethiopian Collections' of Negro folk-song" which Hugill suggests might go back to the 1830s or 1840s (Hugill, p. 71/'61).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:29 AM

The other song that Olmstead gives us from his whaling voyage of 1839-41 is "Nancy Fanana" (page 116). Hugill (page 315/'61) and others suggest that this is a variant of "Cheerily Men" which we have already discussed from Dana, and accepted as a possible candidate for shanties sung on the "Julia Ann". We don't know if "Cheerily Men" was sung on the "Julia Ann" or not, or which variant might have been used. Olmstead might narrow this down for us.

Olmstead sailed out to Tahiti on a whaling vessel 13 years before Pond arrived there on the "Julia Ann". Pond's First Mate on his third and fourth voyages was Peter Coffin, a Pacific whaler with fifteen years of experience in that work prior to signing on with Pond. Coffin certainly could have known "Nancy Fanana".

In February of 1849, in Boston harbor, Ezekiel I. Barra, was preparing to sail out to California. On the docks he is watching another ship, the "Sweden" load up and cast off. On page 11 of his memoirs A TALE OF TWO OCEANS, he describes the process of getting under way and gives us "Nancy Banana" as a halyards shanty:

http://books.google.com/books?id=v6oqQ1CiaGYC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=%22Haul+Her+Away%22&source=bl&ots=mdCKZL6pkZ&sig=kQ14HcLcH8QKA

This means that "Nancy Fanana" aka "Haul 'er Away" was heading for San Francisco just about the same time that Franklin Pond was. He sailed for Chagres, Panama, on January 17th, 1849, on the bark "H.S. Bartlett":

http://www.sfgenealogy.com/californiabound/cb035.htm

So, I would say that there was a good chance that the "Haul 'er Away" version of "Cheerily Men" that we find in Olmstead and in Barra could have been sung on board the"Julia Ann" in 1853-55. Here is a link to some previous discussion on Mudcat of this shanty:

thread.cfm?threadid=72326

And here is a helpful comment from Gibb Sahib:

thread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=75&page=1&desc=yes#2681112

And here is Gibb's version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWN9ZkIhtWk&feature=response_watch

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:42 PM

Lighter-

That a very interesting article by Alden above, and evidently a reference to the "milkmaid" version of Rio Grande.

Thanks for providing the link.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:43 PM

Correction: Olmstead sailed on the "North America", not the "Quebec". Too many links! It was Captain Marryat who sailed on the "Quebec".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:49 PM

Just a bit more on Alden & "Away, Rio!" before moving on.

Alden was apparently still on the staff of the N.Y. Times when an unsigned article appeared on Jan. 27, 1884, called "Minstrelsy on the Sea." The fact that the few shanty words given differ from those in Alden's 1882 article in Harper's indicates, however, that he was unlikely to be responible for the Times article, which, BTW, does not make the suggestion that shanties might have been dying out.

Alden estimated in 1882 that a good shantyman knew "at least seventy-five song." The 1884 article estimates a more modest "score or more."

Among a few shanties mentioned is the milkmaid version of the song with the (partial) chorus, "I was bound for the Rio Grande."

The entire article is worth reading:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=980DE2D61538E033A25754C2A9679C94659FD7CF

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:51 PM

Here's to "Drunken Sailor"!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

&sourceThanks for the background on Alden. I think it helps to know about our sources. And, writing faster, which I don't do, doesn't help at all when I keep deleting my own messages by traveling off to another site! I wish there was a built in memory on "Reply to Thread", or maybe in my own brain.

I want to return to Francis Olmstead's whaling voyage of 1839-41. On page 116,

http://books.google.com/books?id=sqxy9F9a9ggC&dq=Francis+Allyn+Olmstead&printsec=frontcover=bl&ots=azcwa7ziV8&sig=cEFPLm9

he gives us two shanties sung on board the "Quebec". One is "Ho! Ho! and up she rises" and the other is "Nancy Fanana". And perhaps even more importantly than the single verses provided for each song are the tunes that he gives us. It is these tunes that help us identify the contemporary equivalents that we have today.

The first one is, dare I say, obviously a version of "Drunken Sailor". I think the tune clinches this. This song became a very popular shanty, perhaps even more so after it came ashore! It is supposed to be an old shanty, and according to Hugill, it was "sung in the Indiamen of the John Company." (p. 134/'61) I suppose that this means it could even go back to the 18th century. However, I have not found anything earlier than Olmstead for this shanty. Hugill does not give a source for his claim. I'm wondering if anyone knows what that might be or of any other earlier datings for this shanty.

On the other end of things, it did make it out to Australia, showing up in the collection sung by George Pattison.

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s24.htm

And here is Gibb Sahib's really remarkable version of this shanty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvs5Se5vUCY&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=51

I really enjoyed that! And I am claiming that a version of this shanty that "could" have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages from San Francisco to Sydney between 1853 and 1855.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 12:42 PM

Born in Williamstown, Mass., William Livingston Alden (1837-1908) was just old enough to have learned his shanties in the 1850s, but neither _Who's Who_ nor his obituary in the N.Y. Times suggests that he took a sea voyage before 1885, when he was appointed U.S. Consul- General in Rome by Pres. Cleveland. He held the post till 1889.

Wiki warning: Despite the authoritative sources, Wikipedia's brief bio claims he held the office of Consul-General for the rest of his life - another indication of Wikipedia's unreliability. (If they could get that wrong....) What he did do was to remain in Europe, living in Paris and London while writing professionally.

Alden practiced law during the Civil War, then became a journalist and editorial writer. He wrote humorous editorials for the Times for
a number of years, and was well known for his books for young people and a biography of Columbus. He helped introduce sport canoeing to the United States in the early 1870s.

Unfortunately, we know nothing about when Alden learned his shanties. His Harper's article suggests that he'd heard them sung often - quite possible for an interested journalist living in New York City.

On the other hand, he didn't move to NYC, apparently, till the 1860s.
Until then, all his residences seem to have been landlocked.

It seems as though "thirty years ago" was a literary device and that none of Alden's shanties can be dated that far back on the basis of his 1882 article.

You can't win 'em all. Obviously.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM

John, I need to learn to wtite faster.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

Lighter, we got up on the same side of the bed this morning! And our thoughts crossed over each other on the way out.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:59 AM

Charley, the tune is so good that its ability to attract migrant verses is no surprise.

Q, the fact that Alden gives only a single stanza (and just one repeated line of solo) suggests that this was the way he heard the song. Anything is possible, but I doubt very much that he could have forgotten the actual words of "Away, Rio!" and replaced them with words from a completely different song ("The Boston Come-All-Ye") which he does not mention. The melodies of the two songs, while clearly disntinguishable, seem to me to have a similar contour. A shantyman knowing one and starting to sing the other could, I think, easily import verses. And as we know, shantymen generally had little motivation to stick to a "prescribed" text.

The only thing that bothers me about Alden's recollection of "thirty years ago" is that he says nothing at all of how or when he actually learned the shanties. The theme of the article is that shantying is almost extinct and that some one needs to preserve them before steam-power exbtinguishes them completely. (I find it significant that the anonymous writer in 1868 seemd to have no concern that shantying might be dying out, and that the first two published books of shanties appeared about 1888.)

It is just possible that Alden learned the shanties in the 1860s or '70s, knew they were old, and innocently dated his texts to "thirty years ago" without worrying whether that was strictly accurate. Harper's was a sophisticated magazine but not an academic journal, and no one would have objected to that sort of fudging. "Thirty years ago" (i.e., 1851-52) also suggests the California Gold Rush, which Alden may have thought of the Golden Age of shanties.

I will find out what I can about Alden and report back. His article suggests careful observation and consideration of shanty-singing. He even mentions Hugill's "hitch" though he doesn't use that word!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:56 AM

Lighter, thanks for the information on that 1868 article. I had it right in front of me all day but had not associated it with that date. For the rest of you who may be interested, here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8dRMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92-IA4&dq=To+Rio+Grande+we're+bound+away&lr=&cd=11#v=onepage&q=To%20Rio%20Gra

Is this article by William Chambers? Here is another, slightly fuller version of the same article from the Saturday, December 11, 1869 volume of "Chambers's Journal":

http://books.google.com/books?id=feIXAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA795&dq=To+Rio+Grande+we're+bound+away&lr=&cd=16#v=onepage&q=To%20Rio%20Grande

And here is the link to Alden's article in "Harper's New Monthly Magazine" (July 1882):

http://books.google.com/books?id=fWIJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA285&dq=%22I'll+sing+you+a+song+of+the+fish+of+the+sea%22&lr=&cd=20#v=onepage&

Alden says, on page 282 "Let us suppose ourselves on board a Liverpool packet thirty years ago." This would have been 1852. This is a somewhat ambiguous statement. He doesn't actually say "this is what I heard thirty years ago" or "this is how these songs were actually sung thirty years ago" or "back in the 1850's these are the songs you would hear". He does talk elsewhere in the article about the disappearance of the "typical "Jack" : "the "packertarian," and the able seaman of the clipper-ship fleet - has, however, utterly vanished." (page 281) This definitely suggests that he is looking back on a previous era.

Here, as in so many cases, we are up against the question of the difference between the "written" and the "oral" traditions. There always seems to be a bias towards the 'written" traditions. Something is not authoritative if it is not written down and dated. But we know in so many areas that "oral" traditions continued developing right along side of the "written" ones. The question with regard to how we treat Alden is whether he qualifies as "written" tradition or whether he is handing on "oral" tradition". The answer is both. He is definitely handing on oral tradition by writing it down. But, from whence and from when?At this point the more conservative position is that he documents remembered oral tradition in 1882.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:02 AM

Lighter-

Very interesting. Now we're back to the 1850's for some version of "Rio Grande."

I'm impressed with the variety of other songs that shantymen shoe-horned into "Rio Grande." We have verses to "Fish of the Sea;" there's also the "milk-maid," "Liverpool" and the "Gold Rush" versions mentioned by Hugill, and Bullen's first verse is a verse from the "Bold Princess Royal." The next time someone in the circle raised the version from the "Blue Book," RISE UP SINGING, be sure to point that out!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 09:09 PM

"The Fishes," or "Boston Come-All-Ye," is mentioned in Colcord. Did Alden base his "30 years ago" on confused memory of this song rather than the mixture of "Rio Grande" and Fishes"? Still open to question.

Whall has "Fishes" with "Blow ye winds westerly."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 08:29 PM

The article is "On Shanties," in Once a Week (N.Y.), Aug. 1, 1868, pp. 92-93. You can view it through Google Books.

But I have better news yet, even though it makes me look bad: it turns out that Alden (1882) really does place "Rio" among his   shanties of "thirty years ago."

I missed it before because it's almost "invisible": no title, "Fish of the Sea" lyrics, words printed tiny between the musical staves with the choruses in italics. But there's no doubt that it's there:

I'll sing you a song of the fish of the sea,
Rolling Rio!
I'll sing you a song of the fish of the sea,
To my Rolling Rio Grande.

Hurrah, you Rio, Rolling Rio,
So fare you well, my bonny young girls,
For I'm bound to the Rio Grande.

So, while 1868 is still the year to beat, we at least have believable testimony that the shanty was known aboard American ships in the 1850s. (And Alden's supposedly "negative evidence" disappears.)

We can now say that what little testimony we have places the shanty was sung in the 1850s. And FWIW (not much), this earliest reported text has "the" Rio Grande.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 08:14 PM

Olny One Mexican War Ballad I am familiar with mentions the Rio Grande; Buena Vista, by Albert Pike.
It has no bearing on the chantey.
First lines-

From the Rio Grande's waters to the icy lakes of Maine,
Let all exult! for we have met the enemy again;
Beneath their stern old mountains we have met them in their pride,
And rolled from Buena Vista back the battle's bloody tide;
etc. etc. and similar-

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 07:22 PM

Lighter, I am in complete agreement with Research Rule #6. I just found it interesting that there was the idea out there that this shanty was sung as the "volunteers" were heading out to Mexico. Hugill mentions the possibility that the shanty was based on a shore ballad. I wonder if the "Song of the Memphis Volunteers" might fit. Pure speculation.

I need to go back and read a bit more about Mr. Kelly's diary on board the "Algoa Bay". I'm not sure of the dates of that voyage.

I've been trying all day to remember/figure out what that 1868 article on shanties that you mention is and where it is. Can you refresh my memory on that. Thanks.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 05:35 PM

Captain Tayleur, 1856-to? (81 in 1937), who mentioned "Rio Grande". He would have been 18 in 1874; it is unlikely he would have served as an able seaman before this date.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM

John, re Miller and Oates.

Research Rule # 6: If the evidence is very late, not explicitly sourced, and (most especially) fits perfectly with modern expectations, don't trust it without seeing the (supposed) original source.

Popular historians sell books by making history "come alive." I've seen many examples over the years of even careful writers innocently weaving harmless, colorful "facts" into their narratives with no basis but supposition. And for most people, placing "Away, Rio!" in the 1840s is pretty harmless.

After all, everybody "knows" that sea shanties were sung in the 19th C. and that "Away, Rio!" was a popular shanty and oh, wow, they really were bound to the Rio Grande! So obviously they sang the shanty.

Wrong. Rather, not be assumed without evidence we can see.

Your New Zealand and Australian news articles, however, are valuable finds. Seeing the words of "Lowlands" fitted to "Away, Rio!" is a healthy reminder of just how fluid the shanties could be (much more fluid than their revival versions). Did either writer date the song to the 1850s? (If only the "Julia Ann" had sailed in the '60s instead!)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 11:55 AM

I like the idea that "Rio Grande" came out of the context of the Mexican War, 1846-48. We know that this war produced another sea shanty "Santiana". I would also like to think that both of these shanties were in use during the California Gold Rush of 1849-50. Here is the link for the song Lighter mentions "The Song of the Memphis Volunteers":

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3401804742.html

In a book published in 1957, called BENJAMIN BONNEVILLE, SOLDIER-EXPLORER, 1796-1878, by Helen Markley Miller, she says on page 150, "To the Rio Grande they rode, singing the popular song of the newly begun war: 'Oh, say were you ever in the Rio Grande?'"

http://www.archive.org/stream/benjaminbonnevil011734mbp#page/n153/mode/2up

And in his book on Lincoln called WITH MALICE TOWARD NONE (1977), Stephen Oates says on page 76, "In all directions volunteers headed for the front to the blare of bugles and tuck of drums, singing "Away You Rio" and vowing to defend the flag."

http://books.google.com/books?id=zrJwKXz_vUgC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=%22Away,+You+Rio%22&source=bl&ots=D0w0tG0B-4&sig=sb4dCysqri8Qu

Unfortunately, neither Miller nor Oates gives any documentation for these statements. So we are left with the possibility that "Rio Grande" could have originated during the time of the Mexican War and may have been sung during the California Gold Rush.

On the other end of things, we know that it made its way to Australia because it was collected from George Pattison in South Australia in 1924.

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s3.htm

It seems to have been quite popular in that part of the world later in the 19th century. In a novel from New Zealond, called PAGEANT (1933), by Edith J. Lyttleton, writing under the name of G.B. Lancaster, she has "Back in the steamy smoke a rough voice was singing the catch of a sea chanty: 'So, fare ye well, my bonny young girl, We're bound for the Rio Grande..."

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-LytPage-t1-body-d2-d9-d4.html

In his book WHITE WINGS VOL. I FIFTY YEAR OF SAIL IN THE NEW ZEALAND TRADE, 1850-1900 (1924), Henry Brett talks about Mr. J.L. Kelly's diary on board "The Algoa Bay" and he has a section on "Picturesque Chanties". On page 275, he mentions "Rio Grande".

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/Bre01Whit/Bre01Whit274.gif

Finally, the singing of "Rio Grande" at all kinds of social functions gets mentioned a number of times in newspaper articles from New Zealand and Australia (I think). Here is a list (in the Search box, type in "We're Bound For The Rio Grande"):

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=q&hs=1&r=1&dafdq=&dafmq=&dafyq=&datdq=&datmq=&datyq=&sf=&ssnip=&tyq=all&fu

The most interesting of these newspaper accounts is this one from the "Tuapeka Times" of July 2, 1887, which actually has a text of the song:

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=TT18870702.2.25&e=-------10--1----0-all

And here is Gibb's technicolor rendition of Hugill's A & B versions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izl51d4gQfw&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=25

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:01 PM

Lighter-

No doubt the War with Mexico provoked a lot of popular songs, minstrel or otherwise, which became "seeds" for shanties. It would be wonderful if "Rio Grande" could be traced back to one of those songs.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 06:47 PM

Hey, Joe, I posted another long screed on "Away Rio!" a few minutes ago and it vanished!

What I can remember:

An 1868 shanty article says that "Rio Grande" "is perhaps the greatest favorite" of them all. The article quotes one stanza, proving that it's this song.

That's the earliest reference to the song know to exist.

No one explicitly mentions hearing the song before that date and Alden, writing in 1882 about shantying in the '50s, doesn't mention it.

A great song like this must have traveled fast - another reason to consider that it may have originated in the '60s.

The evidence either way is so scanty as to be inconclusive.

Right now, though, 1868 is the year to beat.

PS: "The Song of the Memphis Volunteers," a minstrel song anout the Mexican War in "National Songs, Ballads, and Other Patriotic Poetry" (1846), ends (almost) with the lines "We are bound for de Rio Grande. We are bound for de Rio Grande." But the tune is given as "Lucy Neal," which as far as I can tell bears no resemblance to the tune of the shanty.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:49 PM

John-

You seem to be on firm ground with regard to the fact the "Rio Grande" was a popular shanty by 1850.

I would also agree that few shantymen would have any clue of the origin of a shanty, other than who they learned it from. There is only speculation.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:14 PM

Agree with your last line.
Sailors probably singing of a 'generic' Rio Grande, nothing specific in mind.

Many 'Rios' in Latin America, several had ports, and any largish river with a harbour at the mouth could be 'grande'.
Products from Porto Alegre, in Rio Grande do Sul, would have been hides and lumber. Rio Grande (the city) in the same area is equally important.

I should have noted that the Rio Grande in the north of Brazil is known as Rio Grande do Norte, thus the name is easily confused with Rio Grande del Norte between Mexico and Texas.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:13 PM

This is the kind of discussion I've been hoping for on this thread! "Away, Rio" has been on my list but I hadn't gotten to it yet. Am I hearing agreement among Lighter, Q, and Charley, that regardless of "where" we locate the "Rio Grande" geographically, the shanty was popular by 1850 and "could' have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages in1853-1855?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:48 PM

Well, Q and Charley, I've rethought and investigated the matter. I wonder how many shantymen were actually thinking of Brazil as they sang the song?

Obviously some. Tayluer was one of them, and so was Hugill, but they seem not to have been thinking of the same place.

Others had different ideas. Hjalmar Rutzebeck, for example. His version begins, "In Texas I met with a beautiful gal." Regardless of the porigin of his version, the "Rio" of the original made him think of Texas. Surely he was not unique in this.

Q is undoubtedly correct that Rio Grande do Norte (or "del Nord" as H. has it) is a more likely candidate than do Sul: it's on the extreme NE corner of Brazil. But H. links the shanty to do Sul and explicitly rejects do Norte. Evidently do Sul was the Rio *he* was thinking of.

The couplet about "Portuguee gals" is the only element in the song that connecting it to Brazil. Without it, it could be any Rio Grande.

And not all versions include the couplet.

Of nineteen *independently* collected texts of "Away, Rio!" (almost as many as have been in print, I'd say) I've been able to look at, the line about Portuguese girls appears in just *two.* (I didn't count one- or two-stanza fragments as "texts." I found several of these, but none of them included a reference to Portuguese girls or Brazil.) Doerflinger mentions the line, but he doesn' say that Tayluer sang it.

There is no way to know whether the "Portuguee" couplet was part of the original song or a later invention.

Several texts involve a milkmaid, one is a version of "The Bold Princess Royal," etc. With that degree of fluidity, one might argue almost anything about the song's origin. Some versions are bound to "Rio Grande," suggesting a Brazilian state, but just as many are bound to "the" Rio Grande, suggesting a river.

The coffee trade may well have had something to do with the development of the song in any case. It looks as though there was a huge increase in American imports of Brazilian coffee between 1835 and 1840, most of it coming into New Orleans. I don't know about hides or other imports. Whether this influenced the rise of the shanty is anybody's guess, but it makes me wonder whether an overall boom in trade around the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean in the '30s and '40s may not have helped create the "Golden Age" of shantying.

C. F. Smith seems to have been the first writer to suggest, very cautiously, that the shanty might go back to the eighteenth century.
Her sole evidence was "golden" sands.

The upshot is that "Away, Rio!" was undoubtedly not sung in the 18th Century, had nothing to do with gold, and, in the sailor's mind, did not *have* refer to either Rio Grande do Norte or do Sul.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 01:47 PM

The area of "Rio Grande" has long been important for sugar production. It is in northern, not southern Brazil, in the area that sticks out to the east. The name is more for the large mouth of the river, not the river itself; the city and port of Natal are there. After some arguments with the Dutch, the city grew after c. 1650.

Doerflinger, in the same notes, quotes Captain Tayleur; "This shanty was generally sung aboard those little Baltimore vessels that used to run down to Sao Paulo and back to the United States with coffee- ....."
Speaking of Natal and the great wide harbor called "Rio Grande" by the Portuguese, ".....it was a beautiful place, and the sailors used to love it- and the song was sung by seamen all over the world."
It is an area also noted for coffee, which was grown there quite early.
Lots of "Portagee" girls- and the area still sought by tourists (mostly European and S. Am).

In other words, the area, and chantey, have nothing to do with gold, but with coffee, and perhaps hides, from this area of fine, golden sands and, undoubtedly, some good watering holes for thirsty seamen.

When did Brazil become important in the American coffee trade? This is the likely time for the chantey to have originated. Probably mid-19th c. after the Mexican War.

I doubt that Rio Grande del Norte between Texas and Mexico had anything to do with the chantey.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:36 PM

Lighter-

"Folkie folklore" indeed!

I suppose Doerflinger is also wrong with regard to locating the Rio Grande region in Southern Brazil, and that he made up the version of the song with these lyrics in SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN, p. 64:

"There the Portugee girls may be found"

Doerflinger does state that the reference to "golden sands" is not "gold fields" but the shifting sand shoals in the Rio Grande estuary.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:44 AM

Brace yourselves, shantymen:

I'm confident that the "Rio Grande" of the shanty is indeed the one between Texas and Mexico. The "golden sands" are plain yellow sand.

Why do I think so? Because there's no trace of the shanty "Away, Rio!" before the Mexican War. Because the Texas Revolution and - especially - the Mexican War made the Rio Grande newsworthy in the U.S. And because - brace yourselves - the so-called "18th Century gold rush" to Rio Grande do Sul, now entrenched in folkie folklore, may never have happened.

The reference books I've seen agree that "minor" gold deposits were discovered in Rio Grande do Sul as early as the 17th Century. However, they do not seem to have created any international "rush."

There really was a Brazilian gold rush in the 18th Century, but it wasn't in Rio Grande do Sul. It was in the state of Minais Gerais, hundreds of miles away.

So I see no evidence that "Away, Rio!" was sung earlier than the 1830s or (more likely) during or after the Mexican War of 1846-48.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:38 AM

John-

"Rio Grande" is usually considered one of the oldest capstan shanties, with its reference to the gold fields ("golden sands") of Southern Brazil in the 18th century, as suggested by Hugill and C. Fox Smith.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:49 AM

On Friday, October 11, 1839, Francis Allyn Olmstead sailed on the whaler "North America" from the port of New London, returning in early February of 1841. This voyage took him to Hawaii and to Tahiti. He arrived in Tahiti on Thursday, September 10, 1840 (p. 271). This was about thirteen years before the "Julia Ann" put in there sometime between April and June of 1853.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sqxy9F9a9ggC&dq=Francis+Allyn+Olmstead&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=azcwa7ziV8&sig=cEFPLm9

In a journal entry for February 11,1840, Olmstead mentions two sea shanties, and gives a verse and the music for each of them. One is a version of "What shall we do we a drunken sailor?" And the other is perhaps a version of "Heave 'er Away" (p. 115-116).

The fact that these songs were being sung on board a whaler rather than a merchant ship doesn't mean they couldn't have been sung on board of the "Julia Ann". It is important to remember that her first mate on the third and fourth voyages, Peter Coffin, who was "an old whaler of fifteen years experience on the Pacific Ocean." (Pond's memoirs). This would put him all the way back to the time of Olmstead's voyage.

Since we know that these two songs were being sung in the South Pacific prior to the voyages of the "Julia Ann" I would suggest that they "could" have been sung thirteen to fifteen years later on her trips from San Francisco to Sydney between 1853 and 1855.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 06:52 PM

Thanks, Lighter, for your thoughts on "Time for us to go". And you are right about "Sally Brown". At this point all I can do is "suppose" and "maybe". Some version of "Sally Brown" may have been sung on the "Julia Ann". Historically, it's possible.

Joybell, I have Captain Pond's memoirs. As far as I know, the log of the "Julia Ann" was lost in the shipwreck in 1855. There is no mention of any songs or shanties in the memoirs. In other accounts of the last voyage by some of the Mormon passengers, there is only mention of singing hymns. I would be interested in any documented shanties sung on board any ships sailing from San Francisco to Sydney in the 1850s. Or for that matter, from anywhere to Australia in that decade. The crews were constantly getting mixed up and re-grouped and I'm supposing that the shanties did, too.

At this point, I'm looking at documented shanties for the first half of the 19th century. A big sweep, but not a lot of printed evidence from the time.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Joybell
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 03:56 PM

John, Ive been looking at this period too. First in relation to my family who came to Aus. from Cornwall in 1848, and also in researching an unrelated performer. Naturally, being a singer of old songs, it's the songs I've noticed.
I've read a lot of diaries kept by passengers. So far I've found mention of several popular songs of the period -- sung by either the sailors or the passengers, or both. I've not seen mention of a shanty -- as such -- or even a work song -- as such.
Is it only work songs that you are looking for?
Also is it just the run from San Francisco?
Has anyone suggested you look at family history sites? Often there are quite detailed accounts of voyages to Australia.
Good luck.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM

Roxburghe credits "Time for us to Go" to Leland, who "avouches it genuiness."

However, Hugill's testimony seems to indicate that "A Hundred Years Ago" may well be Dana's "Time for Us To Go" with a different chorus.

One hint of a connection between the shanties is that both alternatives, "A Hundred Years Ago" and "Time for Us to Go," rhyme, are interchangeable in meter, and concern the subject of time. Hardly conclusive, but it would be somewhat more likely for one to morph into the other, if morphing occurred, than into something quite unrelated. Of course, it could be just coincidental.

Hugill says that "A Hundred Years Ago" is *also* called "'Tis Time for Us to Go." The fact that he repeats his alternative title as a subtitle and then expicitly repeats it again as an alternative chorus suggests to me that the variant chorus is one he actually recalled hearing at sea, rather than something to emphasize a theory. Supporting this interpretation is the fact that the title Dana gives is a bit different: "Time for Us to Go" instead of Hugill's "'Tis...." If Hugill was just speculating, he had no reason to introduce the "'Tis" or to carefully repeat it in the chorus.

Even if the shanties were the "same," we still have no idea what words Dana might have heard. In that early period of shantying, they may have been entirely improvised.

"Sally Brown" is a good candidate for 1854-55 because we know it was sung before the Civil War. But we still don't know what words might have been sung on that particular voyage.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 03:18 PM

Of course that should read "Portsmouth".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 03:16 PM

At 10:00 a.m. on April 3, 1837, the ship "Quebec" hoisted her anchor in the harbor at Portmouth and sailed to New York. At the capstan the crew sang "Sally Brown", according to an eye-witness, Captain Marryat, a passenger, who recorded the words and the ongoing dialog in his book A DIARY IN AMERICA, p.38-44:

http://books.google.com/books?id=luZEAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22A+Diary+In+America%22&source=bl&ots=Rs2tyoVHqu&sig=jqdJx

While I cannot document the existence of "Sally Brown" in San Francisco or Sydney between 1850 and 1855, and I have no actual record that it was sung on board the "Julia Ann", we do know from the above reference that it was in existence and had been sung on the packet ships. We also know that eventually it arrived in Australia because it is in the Carey Collection and was sung by both Pattison and Forbes:

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s5.htm

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-mf1.htm

It has been widely collected but from a later time so we know that it lasted through the remainder of the 19th century and into the 20th century. Among others, the following:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/32/mode/2up

http://www.archive.org/stream/musicofwaterscol00smituoft#page/n85/mode/2up

http://www.archive.org/stream/ironmenwoodenshi00shayrich#page/6/mode/2up

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20774/20774-h/20774-h.htm#Sally_Brown

thread.cfm?threadid=85881#1595330

http://books.google.com/books?id=iCJcjx3QMdkC&pg=PA337&lpg=PA337&dq=%22Sally+Brown%22+shanty&source=bl&ots=IpNxS1ymUo&sig=DKE4BB

Here are two versions from Hugill, sung by Gibb Sahib:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVUn_v3jIZA&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=62

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLHoNjWjC4o&NR=1

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 10:18 AM

John-

What's needed is a time machine but they're still under development, expensive and unreliable. Last time I had access to one I ended up stuck in the mudflats above my knees with the tide coming in.

Re-reading Dana and Nordfeld (click here for on-line book) has its advantages!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 08:07 AM

Here is a link to Hugill's discussion of "A Hundred Years Ago" as a candidate for Dana's "Time for us to go". It does have a "rollicking chorus" but the evidence for it being Dana's song seems slim to me.

http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/a_hundred_years_ago.htm

Another possible but unlikely candidate for Dana's "Time for us to go" might be a song found in the ROXBURGHE BALLADS Vol. 8, by William Chappell (1873), p. 448, called "Twas Time For Us To Go" (this is in the Digitrad):

http://books.google.com/books?id=A9cUAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA448&lpg=RA1-PA448&dq=%22Twas+time+for+us+to+go%22&source=bl&ots=8sMNdAr3L

There is really no way to know one way or the other whether either of these songs are the song that Dana talks about.

It seems to me, and I am certainly not the expert in any of this, that with the exception of "Cheerily Men" there is not much historical/critical evidence for clearly identifying any of the shanties that are mentioned in Dana's TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST. I am ready to set aside Dana as a historical source for possible shanties sung on the "Julia Ann", and move on to some other possibilities.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM

Dana says too that "Time for Us to Go" had "a rollicking chorus." I'm not sure that "rollicking" applies to "Leave Her Johnny" in any of its forms.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 10:11 AM

The line "Time for us to go" could certainly have turned at asome point into "Time for us to leave her," especially since the rhythm is better served by two syllables than one.

But it's still conjecture. "Time for Us to Go" may have been a different song entirely, or a song to the same tune with quite different lyrics, etc. There's no way to tell.

I don't know if there's any evidence to show that "Leave Her Johnny" was sung in the 1850s, though "Across the Western Ocean," mentioned by Alden, at least has the same tune.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:29 AM

In TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST, Dana mentions the shanty "Time for us to go" ("Leave her, Johnny, leave her") three times, on pages 277, 285, and 301. I think that it is a good candidate for the voyages of the "Julia Ann". Here is an Australian version, from the Carey Collection sung by George Pattison, called "Leave Her Jollies, Leave Her" (Malcolm Forbes, in this same collection, also sings this song):

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s9.htm

From A SHIP OF SOLACE, we have this:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ashipsolace00mordgoog#page/n316/mode/2up

From the C. Fox Smith PermaThread, we have this:

thread.cfm?threadid=85881#1596084

From Cecil Sharp's ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS, we have this:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/2/mode/2up

From John Ward's web site, we have two versions, one from Shay's IRON MEN AND WOODEN SHIPS, and one from David Bone's CAPSTAN BARS:

http://www.jsward.com/shanty/LeaveHerJohnny/index.html

And from Gibb Sahib, an enroute pumping version that seems particularly suited to the last two voyages of the "Julia Ann":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjNbPMAK7_I&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=130