From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 08:36 PM

Lighter, I appreciate your critical reading of these sources and I was premature in accepting Hugill's argument for "Packet Ship". You are right. There really isn't any independent evidence to show that "Packet Ship" was sung in the 1850's. I'm withdrawing it as a candidate for the voyages of the "Julia Ann".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:58 PM

Placing "Packet Ship" as far back as the 18th C., or even 1855, is conjecture. Hugill's source was a bilingual collection of Danish shanties by a certain Capt. Jensen published in 1923, and it isn't clear whether the song was originally in Danish or English.

Nordhoff & Hall's novel "Mutiny on the Bounty" wasn't published till 1932, but the Mutiny was famous long vefore that. R. M. Ballantyne wrote a novel about it called "The Lonely Island" in 1880 and conceivably the shanty was based on that.

I don't know of any mention of "Packet Ship" independent of Jensen and Hugill.

Hugill thought the words must be old because they state that the crew had never been found. But that doesn't prove anything. Maybe Jensen's text was faulty, or maybe the shantyman just wanted to end his song.

There's no real evidence to show that "Packet Ship" was sung in the 1850's.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM

Almost everyone would agree that "Haul on the Bowline" is one of the more ancient shanties, given its reference to a "bowline" which Hugill points out ceased to be an important line to haul on after the 1700's.

And certainly "Roll the Old Chariot" is from the early 1800's, dated by the printing of the revival song of the same name.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

From Dana's list of shanties sung on board the "Pilgrim" and "Alert" between 1834 and 1836, published in TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST (page 285) I would suggest "Cheerily, Men". Here are several early versions of this song. First of all from Warren Fahey's site in Australia:

http://warrenfahey.com/Sydney-Folklore/SECTION-7/sfp-7-Cheerily.html

And then from Laura Smith's THE MUSIC OF THE WATERS, p.22-23:

http://www.archive.org/stream/musicofwaterscol00smituoft#page/n59/mode/2up

From the C. Fox Smith Perma Thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=85881#1595202

From an old book called THE SHIP OF SOLACE:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ashipsolace00mordgoog#page/n252/mode/2up

And from Cecil Sharp's ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS :

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/50/mode/2up/search/Cheerily+Man

And here is Gibb Sahib's EXPLICIT! version on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xoIfGQwZs

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:39 PM

In my opening post, I said:

"Between 1853 and 1855, the barque "Julia Ann" made four trips from San Francisco to Sydney, Australia. On the fourth return trip, October 3, 1855, she was ship-wrecked in the South Seas near the Scilly Islands. My question is this. What shanties could have been sung on these voyages made by the "Julia Ann"? To my knowledge, there is no historical record in ship's log or from other accounts of any specific shanties being sung or heard on these trips. So I realize that the answers will be speculative. I am interested in what shanties were likely to have been in use in that part of the world between 1850 and 1855, on such a sailing vessel. I am also interested in any reference works to this period and to the trade between San Francisco and Australia and to songs specific to those circumstances. Thanks for your interest and help."

Having laid out some of the historical information about these voyages, I want to return to my original question about what shanties could have been sung on board the "Julia Ann". This is a matter of "could have been" and not "were". This makes the historical dating of the shanties important.

I have already suggested four pumping shanties:

"Lowlands"
"Stormalong"
"Mary Ann"    (see note above for Jan. 16)
"Fire Down Below"

and a capstan (or pumping) shanty "South Australia". Hugil says, in SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS, p. 59, "many authorities feel that even this song, ore than likely, started life in the days of the California gold rush, since versions are to be found giving:

    Heave away, haul away!
    And we're bound for California!"

Here is another pumping shanty that could have been sung on the "Julia Ann":

"Bounty Was A Packet Ship" @displaysong.cfm?SongID=884   Hugill believed that this shanty could be dated prior to the beginning of the 19th century (p. 36-37 SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 02:35 PM

I've come across an interesting note in the 4th edition of W.B. Whall's SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES (1920). It is on page two of that edition as an endnote following the song "Shenandoah". Whall says:

"This was not the only "song," by any means, which was used as a shanty. Dana told us long ago that one of the shanties used in his day was -

                         "Cheer up, Sam,
                         Don't let your spirits go down," etc.

which was made familiar to by the old Christy Minstrels."

Hugill says on page 562 of his SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS (1961):

Another shore-song popular even in Dana's day aboard ship as a capstan song was the minstrel ditty "Cheer Up, Sam"."

If Lighter is right in his suggestion above, I'm wondering if Whall was Hugill's informant on this. But where did Whall (and Hugill) find "Cheer Up, Sam" in Dana?   I may have missed it, but I would be glad to have someone point me to it.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:20 PM

I don't anyone's noticed this discrepancy before, John. "Neptune's Raging Fury" is the original title of the well-known and long popular "Ye Gentleman of England." "Cheer Up, Sam, Don't Let your Spirits Go Down!" was a 19th C. hit.

My guess is that Hugill simply misremembered what he'd read, or, perhaps more likely, a correspondent misinformed him and Hugill never checked the information.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:56 PM

In my note of January 15, I listed the shanties that I found in Dana's TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST. I also mentioned that Hugill lists three others that he attributes to Dana, which are: "Roll the Old Chariot", "Cheer Up, Sam", and "Neptune's Raging Fury". I have now scanned all of TWO YEARS, as well as Dana's THE SEAMAN'S FRIEND, and TO CUBA AND BACK, and I have not been able to find any reference to these three shanties. Here are the links for these latter two books:


http://books.google.com/books?id=BTwYAAAAYAAJ&dq=Richard+Henry+Dana&printsec=frontcover&source=an&hl=en&ei=WBxVS5ntD4yVtgfIy4yxC


http://www.archive.org/stream/danasseamansfri00danagoog#page/n189/mode/1up

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this anomaly and whether or not it has ever been discussed. Where did Hugill come up with these extra three shanties for Dana? I think this is an important question with regard to trying to set some historical time frames for these shanties.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:35 PM

I've never heard of "Mary Anne" used as a shanty, but almost anything is possible.

The most likely shanties to have been sung are those (mostly too familiar today) known to have existed in the 1850s. Many good ones, including some favorites, could have originated long after the voyage of the "Julia Ann."

My guess too is that the lyrics actually sung during the voyage were shorter and varied from the texts in most collections. That's simply because of the nature of shantying.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:04 PM

John-

You certainly would expect pumping shanties to be repeated on a voyage like that one, with likely some improvised verses focused on the Captain for signing them aboard such a leaky ship.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:27 PM

Whoops. I didn't mean to double up there on Gibb. Here is the missing "Fire Down Below":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHgPia75_4I&NR=1

But, in order to pump one's way across the Pacific, I'm sure that some of those shanties were repeated!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:21 PM

Here is one of Gibb Sahib's versions of "Fire Down Below", a pumping shanty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csqkD_A3gHo&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=44

After the wreck of the "Julia Ann" in October of 1855, and the subsequent rescue of most of the passengers and crew, Captain Pond returned to San Francisco and then set out on a fifth voyage to Sydney aboard a Dutch ship, the Horizont. On this voyage, he says:

"Fire at sea is always a present danger, but its actual occurrence will undoubtedly stir the blood of the most sluggish, and we had this experience which really aroused our sleepy Dutchmen for a day at least, to something like old fashioned Yankee go. It was caused by one of our Dutch passengers falling asleep while smoking his pipe, and the fire ate its way into the baggageroom before it was finally extinguished, with no serious damage other than the salt water soaking of a considerable quantity of theatrical furbelows." (Pond Memoirs)

Here is another of Gibb's versions of "Fire Down Below""

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gC27fJb1Fk&NR=1

The above incident reminded Pond of an experience that he had on one of the voyages of the "Julia Ann" (he is not specific about which one). He recounts the following:

"It was a wet, drizzly day. The ship was lazily moving ahead before a light breeze, dead aft, head sails set, main course and top sail hanging loose in their clews, spanker and gaff topsail furled, when suddenly, like a flash, fire burst out forward, the flame in a broad sheet of fire, leaping clean up to the foretop. I was standing aft by the wheel. Of course at such an apparition every one naturally rushed forward. Before reaching the break of the quarter deck, my hat blew off, and instinctively I turned to chase the hat. Well, the fire was occasioned by the boiling over of the cook's pot of fat in the galley. The rigging was fortunately soaking wet, nothing ignited, and the fire disappeared almost as suddenly as it appeared, but it was a standing joke poked at me the remainder of that voyage, the Captain chasing his hat with the forward part of his ship in a blaze of fire."

And here's another version from Gibb Sahib:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csqkD_A3gHo&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=44

However, on the return to San Francisco of the Julia Ann's third voyage to Sydney, Pond was faced with a much more serious situation. He was hauling 400 tons of coal from Newcastle. After leaving Heuania where he had obtained a "fairly liberal supply of fresh provisions," he says,

"the cabin boy came to me with a peculiar complaint. He said that in going to and from the storeroom, which was located aft under the cabin and to reach which he had to pass over a portion of the coal cargo, it was so hot that it burnt his feet - to me an awful suggestion. I enjoined strict silence on the boy, and immediately went below for a personal inspection. I found the cargo heating, and in a kind of cone or funnel it was too hot to be handled by the naked hand, in fact, it seemed on the point of bursting into a conflagration. Not a moment was to be lost. I off coat, seized a shovel and for an hour or two there alone, in the hold of the ship, shoveled at that cone, scattering the coal, and giving it air, until all immediate danger from fire was averted."

Another version of "Fire Down Below" by Gibb Sahib:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6mTZBC0J6k&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=45

I like the sound of the pump!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:14 AM

I very much enjoy and appreciate the good work that Gibb Sahib has been doing on bringing us Hugill's shanties on Youtube. Here are versions from him of two of the pumping shanties, "Lowlands" and "Stormalong".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUc-FQEQSTM&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hn_NMHKxyE&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=16

And here is his version of "South Australia".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65rUw-Z2Og&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=78

Does anyone have a version of "Mary Ann" used as a pumping shanty?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:52 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, Bruce. When I was there several years ago I didn't have enough time to make serious enquiries, but I know where it is. I have found some interesting stuff at the "Maritime Heritage" website. I don't know if there is any connection or not. In fact here is what they have on the arrival of the "Julia Ann" from Sydney on October 11(or thereabouts) in 1853. This would have been the return of the second voyage. It was on this voyage that Pond brought his first contingent of Mormons and had just dropped them off in San Pedro. It was also on this voyage that he brought the Irish patriot, John Mitchel, from Australia to California. Scroll down towards the bottom to October and the arrival of the "Julia Ann" from Tahiti.

http://www.maritimeheritage.org/inport/1853.htm

Unfortunately, this is the only arrival in San Francisco from Sydney of the "Julia Ann" that is recorded.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Bruce D
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:27 AM

You might want to have a talk to the people at the San Francisco Maritime Museum
http://maritime.org/index.htm

They used to have quite a good group working on the folklore associated with the port. especially around the gold rush era.

Bruce D

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 09:55 PM

On the third voyage of the "Julia Ann" to Sydney, when she was anchored in the harbor there, she was hit by a "buster". Here is some explanation of this weather phenomenon:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vdXsmOrelocC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=Australian+%22buster%22wind&source=bl&ots=ADpo331WAj&sig=PZoS_

It blew the "Julia Ann" across the harbor, dragging two anchors and slammed her into the rocky shore. This caused a leak that was to plague her on her return voyage to San Francisco, as well as on her fourth voyage out to Sydney. Pond says that she was never the same ship after that event.

The leak was steady but consistent on the return trip to San Francisco, but it did force Pond to stop at Honolulu. There was a lot of pumping on this return voyage. He was carrying a heavy cargo of coal. But once this coal was unloaded, partly in Honolulu and completely in San Francisco, the ship stopped leaking. It was checked out but the source of the leak could not be determined.

To put her up in dry dock would have meant a thirty day delay, so Pond loaded her up with flour and barley and headed out for his fourth voyage to Sydney. He didn't tell the crew they were sailing on a "leaky ship" until they were at sea and they were not happy about that! The leak had returned and they literally had to pump there way across the Pacific.

They made it to Sydney and there discovered that "when the vessel was caught on the rocks in sydney harbor, the previous voyage, her wood ends had been started from the stern post so that one could run the hand between, and nothing but the copper sheathing remaining unbroken kept the vessel from going down stern foremost." (Pond's Memoirs) This damage was repaired before the beginning of the final return voyage to San Francisco.

In other words, there was a lot of pumping going on back and forth across the Pacific on board the "Julia Ann" in these last voyages. Surely pumping shanties were being sung. Perhaps "Mary Ann", and probably "Lowlands" and "Stormalong" (found in the repertoires of both Pattison and Forbes), and perhaps "Fire Down Below" (sung by Pattison). It may well be that "South Australia" was used. What others do you think were sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 09:18 AM

The "Anchor Hauling" song mentioned by Fahey is "The Jolly Waggoner". Here is a link to some previous discussion of this song:

thread.cfm?threadid=113022

However, I don't see mention of it being used as an "anchor hauling" song. And I wonder if there is any reference anywhere else to "Mary Anne" being used as a "pumping shanty".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 09:12 AM

Of course there's no telling in any particular instance, but if there were any women possibly within hearing, shipboard discipline (i.e., the mate) would ordinarily have kept the singers in line. I doubt if many shanty singers were too "dedicated to their art" to take a hint.

What the gold-seekers sang would have been their own business, I assume. But that's a different story.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 09:59 PM

The "Julia Ann" was carrying Mormons on her second and fourth return voyages to San Francisco. I'm sure in both cases that this tended to modify the behavior of the crew and other passengers. On the other hand she was probably carrying gold diggers to Australia on all four voyages outward bound from San Francisco and this probably had a different effect on the crew's behavior. The account of the first voyage indicates that Pond didn't make much distinction between the crew and the passengers on that trip and was ready to be done with all of them, leaving as many behind as he could in Tahiti and in Sydney. He was probably glad to have the Mormons along to calm things down a bit. Although he was not a Mormon himself, he seems to have respected them. But it is also important to remember that he had been a gold digger in '49-'50 in the California gold fields so he probably felt some kinship with the diggers as well.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:45 PM

Sea-song aficionados should be advised that "The Gallant Ship is Under Weigh" wasn't so much a sea song as a Mormon missionary hymn, written by W. W. Phelps before 1845.

As for the shanties, with so many passengers aboard, especially of a strongly religious bent, it is almost certain that the words sung were as inoffensive as the sailors could make them.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:32 PM

There are three references to singing on board the "Julia Ann". They all come from the final voyage that began in Sydney and ended in shipwreck. There were twenty-eight Mormons on board sailing for San Francisco. They were the ones who did the singing. Here is a quote from John Devitry-Smith's paper on "The Wreck of the Julia Ann", which you can find here:

http://allenhackworth.com/McCarthy/byujuliaann1.htm   (The quotes come from Part 2)

"After a final farewell from the Saints in Sydney, the Julia Ann with fifty-six souls and a 350-ton load of coal left Sydney Heads at 2:00 P.M., 7 September 1855, bound for San Francisco.26 As the voyage began, the passengers gathered between the poop and steerage house to sing "The Gallant Ship Is Under Weigh," but the thought of leaving friends and familiar surroundings for an uncertain future made the departure a more solemn occasion than joyous for many."

"Meetings were held regularly, and at night there was singing and prayer. After twenty-six days at sea, the Julia Ann continued "getting on with good wind," and aside from seasickness the voyage was a complete success with talk of soon arriving in San Francisco."

"Peter Penfold and others were singing on top of the midship house at the time of impact and, finding it too dangerous where they were, headed for the cabin. According to Penfold, "[T]he sea [was] breaking over us every moment, so that it was a thing impossible to stand."

It would be interesting to know what Peter Penfold and his friends were singing when the "Julia Ann" crashed into the reef. These references all come from eye witness Mormon accounts and not from Captain Pond.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:37 AM

Sharp in Australia for seven years?

How interesting. I wonder if he kept a journal and whether that or some other notes might be at Cecil Sharp House in London?

It's amazing what another set of sharp eyes can turn up.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:25 AM

In his introductory remarks about Clive Carey, and his time in Australia, Fahey mentions this:

"It should further be noted that the great English folk song and dance collector, Cecil Sharp, also chose Adelaide and spent some of his early years working in that city. Sharpe arrived in Adelaide in November 1882 and early in 1883 obtained a position as a clerk in the Commercial Bank of South Australia. He read some law, and in April 1884 became associate to the chief justice, Sir Samuel James Way. He held this position until 1889 when he resigned and gave his whole time to music."

I think I was vaguely aware that Sharp had been in Australia, but I had not made the connection in relation to this particular study. It looks like he was there for about seven years! That's a whole lot longer than he spent in the Southern Appalachian Mountains! Did he collect any songs in Australia and were any of them sea shanties? Where would one look to find out?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:20 AM

It is also worthwhile to look at the Clive Carey Collection of sea shanties, collected by Carey in South Australia in 1924/25, from a George Pattison and a Malcolm Forbes. You will find them at Fahey's web site here:

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s1.htm

and here:

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-mf1.htm

Fahey says that Forbes was an old man when Carey recorded his songs. Carey did not give any information that would help us determine how far back into the 1800's these songs go, but at least they are placed in South Australia in that century and from the age of at least one of the informants would seem to have been around for awhile.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:09 AM

Here is some information from Warren Fahey's "Australian Folklore Unit" webpage, which can be found here:

http://warrenfahey.com/wf_intro.htm

"Two shanty fragments as sung on the sailing ships bringing gold seekers to Sydney in the 1850s. Found in Adventures on the Australian Gold Fields - W Craig. 1903

Pumping Shanty

Oh fare you well, my own Mary Anne
Fare you well for awhile.

Anchor Hauling Shanty

When first we went a-waggoning
Drive on my lads, heigh ho."

The first one is obviously from a rather well-known song "Mary Ann". Check here:

thread.cfm?threadid=110435

I am not familiar with the second one.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:19 PM

See thread on Donkey Riding, etc. thread 41062:
Donkey Riding

Possibly an old French chantey, but age not known. Sung in Canada. A variant in the Channel Islands.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM

A nautical adaptation of the original:

Were you ever in Quebec,
Chorus—Bonnie laddie, highland laddie,
Stowing timber on the deck,
Chorus—My bonnie highland laddie, oh.

Were you ever in Dundee,
Chorus—Bonnie laddie, highland laddie,
There some pretty ships you'll see,
Chorus—My bonnie highland laddie, oh.

Were you ever in Merrimashee,
Chorus—Bonnie laddie, highland laddie,
Where you make fast to a tree,
Chorus—My bonnie highland laddie, oh.

Were you ever in Mobile Bay,
Chorus—Bonnie laddie, highland laddie,
Screwing cotton by the day,
Chorus—My bonnie highland laddie, oh.

"Donkey Riding" extends these comments.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:53 PM

Would the 'Highland Laddie' mentioned by Nordhoff, as cited in John's last post, have been 'Donkey Riding', a fine shanty always sung to the 'Highland Laddie' tune? Or the actual 'Bonnie laddie, Highland laddie' sung unadorned by the shanytman, I wonder?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

John-

You really do follow up on leads. Excellent work!

The James Craig in Sydney Harbour is a wonderful way to learn what it was like to sail on a barque/bark. And they also do a monthly shanty sing, led by some of my old friends there.

Charley Noble, still adrift in NYC

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 11:18 AM

Here are the shanties that Dana mentions in Chapter 29 of Two Years Before the Mast (1840):

"Heave, to the girls!"
"Nancy oh!"
"Jack Crosstree"
"Cheerly, men"
"Heave round hearty!"
"Captain gone ashore!"
"Dandy ship and a dandy crew"
"Time for us to go!"
"Round the corner"
"Tally high ho! you know"
"Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"

In his list, Hugill lists "Roll the Old Chariot", "Cheer Up, Sam" and "Neptune's Raging Fury" as being mentioned by Dana. I haven't found the references for these three in Dana's text yet, but I am still reading. Anybody know where they might be?

From Olmstead's Incidents of a Whaling Voyage (1841) we have:

"Drunken Sailor"
"Nancy Farana"
"O, Hurrah, My Hearties, O"

And from Nordhoff's The Merchant Vessel (1856), we have:

"Old Stormy"
"Yankee Dollar"
"Fire Maringo"
"Highland Laddie"

These are all within about 15 years of the dates for the voyages of the "Julia Ann".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:28 AM

I don't know very much about sailing or sailing ships, and I've never been to sea myself. As I try to imagine what it was like to sail on the "Julia Ann" from San Francisco to Sydney in the early 1850's, it helps me to know something about "three-masted barks". I began with the Wikipedia article here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barque

And then from that article I went here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Barkskibs_staende_rigning2.png

This gives me some sense of the size and complexity of these vessels. I am immediately struck by the amount of work that it would take to sail one of these ships half way around the world. When I try to bring together these drawings and the historical information of the actual voyages, I can begin to get a sense of how the shanties were a part of it. And I am assuming they were there.

Here are some contemporary pictures of a three-masted bark in Australian waters today:

http://sports.webshots.com/album/88650944gxtmXl

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:51 AM

Thanks, Lighter. This is what I suspected.

I have a few corrections to make with regard to some dates in the earlier postings. The "Julia Ann" left San Francisco on her first voyage on April 12, 1853, and arrived in Sydney on June 22 for the first time. She then sailed on to Melbourne and returned to Sydney from Melbourne on August 3, 1853. She departed Sydney for San Francisco, on or about August 25, and arrived back in San Francisco on October 12, 1853.

On her third voyage, the "Julia Ann" departed Newcastle for San Francisco on January 17, 1855, with 400 tons of coal.

On her final voyage, the "Julia Ann" departed San Francisco on May 19th, 1855.

It is amazing how much information there is on all of this. Here is a link on newspaper notices for the "Julia Ann" in Australian newspapers:

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?searchTerm=Julia+Ann+barque&textSearchScope=full&startFrom=0

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:48 AM

Sounds like a shout to me (or a literary representation of a shout).

There is a shanty called "Yo Heave Ho," but that was used at the capstan. (It even says so in the words.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:54 PM

During the incident when the "Julia Ann" was leaving Tahiti and being pursued by the flotilla of boats, Pond says:

"Twas marvellous what a smart, active crew the threatening crisis developed. They sprang up the rigging, lay out on the yards, sheeted home, with a "Yo, heave, O" and a will; and with the celerity of a man-of-war crew, the ship was covered with a cloud of canvas..."

This is the only place in Pond's memoirs in which he recounts the events of his four voyages to Sydney, as well as his earlier voyage to Valparaiso, where he mentions anything that sounds like it a shanty. But it may have been just a shout.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:46 PM

The "Julia Ann" reached Sydney on August 5, 1853. Pond had wanted to sail straight to Melbourne, but the shortage of provisions forced him to stop at Sydney. Pond ended up abandoning his crew and half of his passengers ashore in Sydney and recruiting a new crew from the remaining passengers to sail on to Melbourne, which he reached in three days.   There he disbanded his new crew and joined the many other crew-less and cargo-less ships in the harbor. After a week or so, he rounded up a new cargo of passengers for San Francisco. He says, "I also obtained a reliable crew of able seamen, who shipped to work their passage to California and the gold diggings..."

The reason why I wanted to share these details of the first voyage was to give a sense of how fluid the makeup of "the crew" was at any given point. There seemed to be constant turnover for one reason or another. I have been unable to find a record of the names of the crew for this first arrival in Sydney, or for any of the new crew picked up in Melbourne. It would be a safe bet to guess that there were both Australians and Americans coming and going, back and forth from the gold fields of California and the new ones just discovered in Australia. This would have had some impact on what shanties might have been sung on this first voyage. The roughness of the crew and passengers (although there were women aboard) might also suggest the nature of some of the shanties.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:14 PM

When he reached Tahiti, under a flag of distress, Captain Pond wanted to get a whole new crew and leave the mutineers in jail there, but the American Consul wouldn't allow it. Taking on his original crew again, he ordered them to man the windless, but they refused, because they wanted to spend another night on Tahiti. Pond enlisted some French marines from a man-of-war nearby to help him with his problem. Once the "Julia Ann" was under way, he mustered the crew and put every other man in chains and turned them over to the French to take ashore and lock up.

The "Julia Ann" had "barely gained a comfortable offing" when it was discovered that she was being pursued by a fleet of boats from the harbor. She outran them until the wind died down and then the French came on board again and declared that she had deserters from every ship in the harbor stowed away and hidden on board. Pond invited them to thoroughly search the ship. They only found a couple of their own men, but after they left, nineteen more stowaways were discovered hiding in the steerage. He says that they "were mostly seafaring men, and were assigned to their several stations, thus giving me a powerful crew in numbers at any rate, if not in reliability." He goes on to say that the "daily scenes on board of our ship were simply indescribable, profanity, drunkenness, disorder and insubordination were the order."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:09 PM

On this first voyage of the "Julia Ann" to Australia, Captain Pond "made every preparation to guard against and prevent, if possible, any effort on the part of the crew to introduce a Neptune carousal" when they crossed equator.   But a barrel of whiskey had been smuggled on board and the crew got drunk and took over the ship. Pond says, "all authority was lost, and for three days we were barricaded in our state rooms and the ship allowed to drift at the mercy of the wind, no person at the helm."

With help from some of the passengers, Pond and Captain Davis were able to regain control of the "Julia Ann", "placing the second and third mates in irons, and confining them in their staterooms..." However the ship was a mess. He says, "The ship was dismasted, fore and aft. All three of her top gallant masts were hanging by their rigging over the sides. We rigged up jury masts, got what sail we could on the ship, and bore away to Tahiti, the nearest port under our lee."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

In the summer of 1853, as Captain Pond prepared for his first voyage to Australia, he was able to secure Captain Davis to command his ship. And he was fortunate to recruit a personal friend, Dr. Downs, as the ship's surgeon. The rest of the crew was another matter. In his memoirs, he says:

"It was at a time when the criminal classes were being hounded out of the State [of California] by Vigilance Committees, and as Australia had furnished a large quota of that stripe, and also as gold had recently been discovered there, the Julia Ann offered a fine double opportunity for the hoodlum class to flee from the very pronounced danger of strangulation by remaining, and in exchange to enter into pastures new for indulging in their peculiar propensities, by returning to the country from whence they came. Our crew, even from the first mate down to the cabin boy, were of like character, and were shipped for one dollar each to work their passage."

It is important to remember that Pond had spent a year in the gold fields of California, from 1849-1850, and was familiar with all kinds of rough characters. In addition to this crew, he also was carrying between 150-200 passengers! Even he admits that this was "a much greater number than she should have been allowed for her registered tonnage." Most of these passengers were bound for Melbourne and the gold fields of Australia.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:46 PM

Thanks, Charley. I will check these two out. I found a solid piece of information on the "Julia Ann's" first arrival in Sydney. It was on August 5, 1853. Also, her second arrival may have been January 27 rather than January 24, 1854.

For a fascinating first hand account from the perspective of a Morman missionary of the "Julia Ann's" Second return voyage from Sydney to San Francisco, check this link:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/People/William_Hyde/Journal/4*.html

Scroll down to the entry for January 29th, 1854, about four fifths of the way down the page, for the beginning of Hyde's account.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM

John-

Fascinating details.

"Round the Corner, Sally" with its implicit reference to 'rounding Cape Horn might also have been a sahnty sung on this ship; I believe Dana mentioned that one as well, along with "Sally Rackett."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 07:17 AM

In trying to imagine the historical setting for the "Julia Ann" in San Francisco, I found the following information of interest. If you scroll down in the second link of the previous message to page 626 you find this:

"It will be seen by the foregoing table, that there arrived at San Francisco, from Eastern domestic porte, in 1852, 132 ships, 28 barks and 4 brigs and schooners—total 164 vessels. Amount of tonnage 124,650 tons; average length of passage 151 days.

Of these vessels 47 were from Boston, with an aggregate tonnage of 84,241 tons, the average length of passage being 148} days ; 99 from New York, the tonnage of which was 83,339 ton», and the average length of passage about 150 days ; 7 from Philadelphia, with a tonnage of 2,839 tons, the average length of passage being about 161 days ; 6 from Baltimore, with a tonnage of 1,890 tons, average length of passage 179 days; from Richmond 3 vessels, 2,007 tons; and one each from Frankfort, Maine and New London."

And specifically for the month of August, 1852, this:

"August—14 ships, 3 barks ; 12,424 tons, average passage 148} days. Five of the vessels arriving this month brought no assorted cargo, the other twelve had a fair assortment of general groceries."

To say that it was a busy time in the port of San Francisco when the "Julia Ann" arrived there, on what seems to have been her maiden voyage, is certainly an understatement.

If she left San Francisco in the summer of 1853 on her first trip to Sydney, here is what the shipping at San Francisco looked like:

http://www.maritimeheritage.org/inport/1853.htm

There were literally ships from all over the world there and this means crews from all over the world as well. Is it generally true that each time a ship sailed in those days, a new crew had to be assembled? It seemed as though Captain Pond was always having to put together a new crew to and from Sydney.

I can see that all of this would have had a direct impact on what songs might have been sung on any given ship. They could have come from anywhere, and would be pretty much dependent upon a particular shantyman at any given time. In his memoirs, Captain Pond does not mention anything about shanties or shantymen or even singing at all, so there are no clues there. He does talk about the make up of his first crew. I will give some detail on that later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:36 AM

Thanks for that link, Dead Horse. Perhaps some additional background on both the ship "Julia Ann" and her captain, BF Pond would be interesting. Pond came to California from New York in the Gold Rush of 1849, arriving in San Francisco on April 1, 1849. Here is an account of his time in the gold fields.

http://oldwww.ballarat.edu.au/sovhill/gold150/caligold.htm

In 1852, Pond and several other business partners bought the "Julia Ann" for "about $10,000". She was "a new vessel, recently arrived from Boston on her first voyage, with passengers, never having carried a cargo, clipper built and staunch...."(Pond Memoirs) Here is a record of her arrival from New York on August 13, 1852.

http://books.google.com/books?id=b4cEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA624&dq=the+bark+%22Julia+Ann%22&lr=&cd=6#v=onepage&q=the%20bark%20%22Julia%20

According to John Devitry-Smith, in his article of 1989 on "The Wreck of the Julia Ann", in footnote 4, "The Julia Ann was a three-masted bark built with one deck, a square stern, and a billethead. It had been built at Robbinston, Maine, in 1851 and its home port was San Francisco (Conway Soone: Ships, Saints, and Mariners, 124-25).

It is important to not confuse Pond's "Julia Ann" with another "Julia Ann" that arrived in San Francisco on August 22, 1841, under the command of William Leidesdorff.

http://www.maritimeheritage.org/captains/leidesdorffWilliamA.html

On October 13, 1852, just after purchasing the "Julia Ann", Pond set out on a shake down cruise to Valparaiso, Chile, with a Captain Staples in charge. On this journey he "studied navigation, the use of the sextant, daily locality of the vessel, dead reckoning, &c., &c."(Pond Memoirs) It was upon returning from this voyage that the ship was outfitted for its first trip to Australia.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:39 AM

This link provides a nice historic insight into the last voyage & subsequent wreck.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:33 PM

Given the opening lines, I wonder of "London Julie" might have been a candidate.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:03 PM

I appreciate your good responses and I'm following up on the references. I have put together a rough time line for the four voyages of the "Julia Ann" from San Francisco to Sydney, based on the records I have been able to find so far.

Voyage #1 Departed San Francisco perhaps in late May or early June, 1853.
        Arrived in Sydney probably in July of 1853.
        Departed Sydney on or about August 25, 1853.
        Arrived in San Francisco on October 9 (or 11), 1853.

Voyage #2 Departed San Francisco on December 2, 1853.
        Arrived in Sydney on January 24, 1854.
        Departed Sydney on March 22, 1854.
        Arrived in San Pedro CA on June 13, 1854. (83 days)
       Arrived in San Francisco shortly thereafter.

Voyage #3 Departed San Francisco for Puget Sound perhaps in early fall, 1854.
       Departed Puget Sound in the fall of 1854. (See p. 102 in the document below.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=KoEUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA359&lpg=PA359&dq=History+of+Seattle+from+the+earliest+Vol.+1&source=bl&ots=WU
            
        Arrived in Sydney on December 6, 1854.
        Departed Sydney on ?
        Arrived in San Francisco on ?

Final Voyage, #4 Departed San Francisco perhaps in early June of 1855.
        Arrived in Sydney on July 24, 1855.
        Departed from Sydney on Friday, September 7th, 1855.
        Ran aground and sank off the Scilly Islands on October 3-4, 1855.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:16 AM

Congratulations on the meticulousness of your research.

Unfortunately, history lacks resources to tell us for certain what shanties were sung on any voyage for which detailed accounts do not exist.

"Whisky, Johnny!" in various forms is occasionally mentioned by pre-Civil War writers, as are "Polly [more usu. 'Sally'] Rackett," "Sally Brown," "A Hundred Years Ago," and "Storm Along."

Referring, perhaps loosely, to the 1850s, Alden (1882) mentions "Haul the Bowline," "Haul Away, Joe," "Shallow Brown," "Good-bye, My Love, Good-bye," "Boney," "Shanandore," "Lowlands Away," "Across the Western Ocean," "Storm Along John," "Hurrah, You Santy!" "Ranzo," "Ranzo Ray," "Rio Grande," "Paddy Works on the Railway," "Hi, Hilonday!" and "Clear the Track!"

It may be the earliest list of shanties explicitly attributed to the 1850s by a writer who seems to have heard them at that time.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM

The links above are for the crew and passenger lists for the Third and Fourth voyages of the "Julia Ann" from San Francisco to Sydney. Here is the link for the Second voyage:

http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1854/01/071jul.htm

The captain on this voyage (and on the First voyage as well) was Charles B. Davis from New Bedford, MA. Mr. Pond, who was part owner of the "Julia Ann", was along on both of these trips, although he is not listed on the manifest for the Third voyage. The passenger and crew list for the First voyage of the "Julia Ann" is not yet available.

On the Third and Fourth voyages, Pond was the captain and Peter Coffin was the lst mate. Pond recruited Coffin when he took the "Julia Ann" to Stillicome at the head of Puget Sound to load timber for Sydney for his Third voyage. At the time, Coffin was the captain of a Revenue Cutter and "an old whaler of fifteen years experience on the Pacific Ocean."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:21 AM

Here is a link for the crew and passengers for the "Julia Ann" when she arrived in Sydney on July 24, 1855.

http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1855/07/059jul.htm

Somehow, the First Mate, Mr. Coffin, has lost 20 years in age! Here is the original document:

http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1855/07/media/059jul.gif

It says that the nationality of all of the crew members is "American".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:12 PM

Stereotypical only because it is found in "Moby Dick," and the family of that name who settled on Nantucket. A well-known Brixton (England) family in the 16th C., but I haven't traced the genealogy.

It is a not uncommon English name. A few:
Sir Isaac Coffin, Baronet, and Royal Navy, 1812-1889.
Gen. Clifford Coffin, 1870-1959, Victoria Cross recipient in WW1, became a major general.
Walter Coffin, 1784-1867, coal mine owner, exploiter of Rhondda fields, member of Parliament.

One might as well pick the name of Seaman McGregor.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:40 PM

In that era, it would suggest that he either was or was descended from a Nantucket Quaker family with a whaling background.