BS: translations from the English

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:26 PM

'flak meant a swift & incessant barrage from any sort of gun — a nearer synonym, tho not exact, would be "crossfire"'. I don't agree. In English flak is anti-aircraft fire, crossfire is crossfire, bombardment is bombardment. Flak has come to mean criticism metaphorically "I'll get some flak for that!".

Nine-ten might it be from 'nine-ten and out' - the way that boxing referees count out boxers. Still don't know what it actually means though.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:45 AM

Thanks, micca. That's a good possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Micca
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 07:16 AM

leenia, I would read that as "Being a bit light in his trainers" (the brain), as in only 9/10ths of completely compos mentos, or "a sandwich short of a picnic", "the lift doesnt go to the top floor" sort of thing

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 07:04 PM

"Lives high on the hog" I have heard in Oz, usually among those older than most baby boomers.

"Living the life of Riley" has similar connotations.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM

My wife (from southern US) uses the expression "eats high on the hog" about someone who lives well.
An expression, but I wondered if there were similar ones in UK, Australia, New Zealand.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:22 PM

Seven eight- stay up late.
Nine ten- never sleep again.

Is it said of a journalist who never sleeps? Seems possible, but I have never heard it.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 11:48 AM

Does anybody understand this quotation - see the first post of this thread.
====
4. [said of a journalist] "The others call him NINE TEN. Knows more about tomorrow than he does about today."

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:39 PM

"Eighteen-wheeler," yes.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:56 PM

"Semi-trailer" is ordinarily reduced to "semi" (pronounced sem-eye)

In Oz it's similarly shortened, when the prime mover has only one trailer, but the "semi" is pronounced as sem-ee, with the ee shortened.

I gather such articulated vehicles are commonly referred to in N.Am. as "18 wheelers"; in Oz, they'd be "22 wheelers" (although we don't use that term), as most of the 40' trailers have a triaxle arrangement rather than just the dual axle.

And I just remembered I scored another nickname in primary school because of my surname; according to Les' list it'd be an "inevitable" if I were in the Royal Navy. I never heard it when I was in the army, though.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:08 PM

Muddy Waters seems to work, too, like Dusty Rhodes, but for a nickname to be "inevitable," thousands of people must have it. I've never known anyone with such a nickname personally. My guess is that Muddy and Dusty and any others that might be mentioned were just lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 11:38 AM

'Inevitable nicknames' are commonest in the Armed Forces and in Public (meaning private or fee-paying) Schools in the UK. I attended a pretentious independent school and had such classmates as 'Spike' Naylor and 'Tug' Wilson. Presumably they didn't have the full list - the name that goes with my surname (Ward) is Sharkey: I was never called that. There's a list here

These names never respect gender, I know a Dolly and a Molly, both male. As for their non-use in the USA, how about Muddy Waters?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Tangledwood
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 02:46 AM

Oz has the same usage of "mudflaps" but refer to "wheel arches" rather than "wheel wells" when describing modern "mudguards".

Wheel wells are the cavities in an aircraft where the undercarriage folds away during flight . . . as long as the aircraft was designed with retractable undercarriage. If it wasn't they're classified as an unservicability.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:57 AM

Anyone want to translate CHAV? I don't feel qualified.

One piece of chav-speak is "innit" which is used pretty much the same way the French use "n'est-ce pas?" -- stick it on the end of any declarative sentence to make it a question. EG:

Your favourite pudding is mince pie, innit?
You're going to leave here very quickly and quietly, innit?
You never saw any of this, innit?

"Pudding" by the way refers to any dessert. What the Americans call pudding, Brits would call custard. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:12 AM

Seeing as Accuracy matters, shouldn't "speed bumps" be called "slow bumps"?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:58 PM

My sisters were called "four-eyes" and I was mercilessly teased because of my last name, Hudson, as in "Henry" which I was taunted with by boys. I don't remember any girls doing that, but I do remember them calling other girls "scags." There was also one older boy who called me "scab." I have no idea why or what it meant to him except that I carried my violin back and forth to school on the bus everyday and that brought on a lot of teasing about having a machine/tommy gun in the case, so maybe that was his idea of a mafia name for me.

What you folks have referred to as quarterlights, we called "wing windows" if memory serves. They were perfect for directing a cooling breeze when there was no air conditioning. I remember our old dog loved to stick his nose out one, too.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:17 PM

The English vernacular for what Americans call a Semi is, or was when I lived there, Artic. Short for articulated lorry. Lorry = truck

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:37 PM

>> Another difference(?) might be the use of the term "trailer". In Oz, this is usually either a box-like item attached to the rear of a car (automobile, in N.Am.) via a tow bar (on the car) and a drawbar (on the trailer), or a much larger (up to 40' long) item attached to the rear of a prime mover ("tractor" in N.Am); this latter arrangement is called a "semitrailer" in Oz. <<

All true for U.S., except that here too an automobile is ordinarily called a "car." "Semi-trailer" is ordinarily reduced to "semi" (pronounced sem-eye), but "tractor-trailer" is also common. I rarely hear of the double-trailer arrangements you mention and don't know what the recognized shorthand would be.

As a child, I too thought that auto "fenders" included what are normally called "bumpers," as in "bumper sticker." But that may have been an obsolete usage of my grandparents'. The general definition of "fender" certainly seems to fit, however.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 08:43 PM

Mudflaps- to most North Americans motorists, mounted to the rear of the wheels, inside the fender. Automobiles no longer have mudguards since the "wheel wells" are now part of the body.
Mudguards-to American bicyclists and motorcyclists- they go over the wheels.

Oz has the same usage of "mudflaps" but refer to "wheel arches" rather than "wheel wells" when describing modern "mudguards". But Oz bikes (motorised as well as pedalled) have mudguards.

I had always though that North American "fenders" were what we called "bumper bars"; was I mistaken?

Another difference(?) might be the use of the term "trailer". In Oz, this is usually either a box-like item attached to the rear of a car (automobile, in N.Am.) via a tow bar (on the car) and a drawbar (on the trailer), or a much larger (up to 40' long) item attached to the rear of a prime mover ("tractor" in N.Am); this latter arrangement is called a "semitrailer" in Oz. If the prime mover has more than one trailer behind it there are other names; it will be called a "B-double" if the forward one is only 20' long and the rear one is the standard 40' long, or a "road train" if both trailers are full-length. In the real outback, road trains usually have three full-length trailers. A trailer designed to carry horses behind a car, however, is called a "horse float".

I've always thought the N.Am. use of "trailer" applied to what we in Oz called a "caravan", ie a habitable trailer towable behind a car as distinct from a self-motivated habitable item referred to as a "Recreational Vehicle". Or have I got the wrong end of the stick there, too?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 08:23 PM

Mudflaps- to most North Americans motorists, mounted to the rear of the wheels, inside the fender. Automobiles no longer have mudguards since the "wheel wells" are now part of the body.
Mudguards-to American bicyclists and motorcyclists- they go over the wheels.

"Dusty" is just too obvious.

In the southwest, Francis and Francisco become "Pancho," the Mexican nickname (as Villa).

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:43 PM

I believe that Q and I are from nearly opposite ends of the country, but I concur with his comments.

"Inevitable" nicknames based on surnames are almost nonexistent in the U.S. In fact, even ancient, quasi-affectionate nicknames like "Jim" and "Pete" may be on the way out. Many young people object to being called by anything but their full first name, except by family members.

The only "inevitably" nicknamed American I can think of offhand was "Dusty" Rhodes, a prominent baseball player of the 1950s.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: s&r
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:45 PM

Mudguards went over the wheels. Running boards were the flat bits with rubber tread often that you could stand on

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:08 PM

In BBC (and other) news reports, a score may be reported as one-nil; in North America 'nil' is seldom heard; it becomes one to nothing or one-zip, etc.
Dunno why nil is uncommon, since it is a short, useful word.

I remember cars with the outside seat; 'business coupes' had them. We called them 'rumble seats'. I remember freezing in one on a cold night.
Don't remember 'dickie' used in that sense; it applied to the false starched or hard front that looked like a formal shirt, often worn under the jacket by waiters, etc.

Running boards also was the term in U. S., fenders applied to the curved parts over the wheels.

I read a lot when I was small; I also was called 'Prof' and some others I won't repeat here.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Tangledwood
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:54 PM

Sidelights are the lights, red to port, green to starboard, shown by ships (and airoplanes) at night.

I've only ever heard them referred to as navigation lights.

Passenger to pilot: Isn't it difficult to find your way at night?
Pilot: no, I just have to stay between the red light and the green light.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:32 PM

Windscreen? In the U. S. and Canada, the proper name is windshield.
snip
Quarterlight? A peculiar English automotive term for the small pivotal window for ventilation in the door of a car. Largely abandoned in modern vehicles.

"Windscreen" is the 'correct' term in Oz, where "Quarterlights" were called "quarter vents" and, in hot weather, often twisted so far around as to direct air into the car.

But we called the lid bit you lift to access the engine bay (usually at the front) "the bonnet", whereas North Americans call it the hood (becoming the world's first hoodies?); we also called the lid bit at the back "the boot" whereas North Americans call it the trunk.

Older cars again (A-model Fords?) had an outside seat at the rear we called the dickie seat and many (I think the last might have been the VW Beetle) had proper running boards.

And, on the nickname front, I remember a few non-pejorative ones used by boys, such as "Blue" or "Bluey" for anyone with red hair, "Shorty" for anyone who could see over the heads of his peers without stretching, "Nobby" for anyone with "Clark" as their surname and "Dusty" for anyone with "Miller" as theirs. I went to a boys-only high school (which was where they first became applied, as I recall) so have no info on girls' behaviour in such matters. I managed to score three; two pejorative and one used by friends. Four eyes (because I wore specs) and Prof (because I had read entire encyclopaedias before I hit high school) were the two pejorative ones and the other (classified, these days) was because of a quirk of geography and the naming of church and cadastral parishes.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Anne Lister
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:08 AM

FWIW - I distinctly remember being called Four Eyes when I turned up at my primary school with glasses for the first time. Can't remember if it was by boys or girls, but I do remember not liking it much as I hadn't wanted to wear glasses anyway. Maybe we only really remember nicknames when they applied to us, rather than ones we applied to others?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 06:44 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 05:01 PM

Windscreen? In the U. S. and Canada, the proper name is windshield.

Sidelight? Sidelights are the lights, red to port, green to starboard, shown by ships (and airoplanes) at night.
Also used to designate the small lights on the front of a motor vehicle, used to indicate the presence of the vehicle at night.

Quarterlight? A peculiar English automotive term for the small pivotal window for ventilation in the door of a car. Largely abandoned in modern vehicles.

Backlight? Nought to do with vehicles. A means of illuminating a subject from the back.
More recently, a form of illumination used in liquid crystal displays (LCD). Modern LCD screens, however, are built with an internal light source.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Tangledwood
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:57 PM

I don't recall any physically-based nicknames being used either in primary school in England or secondary school in Oz. My only recollection of physical references is when they were used to taunt someone.
One exception was a physically-based nickname applied to a girl, nicknamed Jex, or Jex head. Apparently she had once had petrol spilled on her hair which went frizzy at the time. Somebody likened it to steelwool, Jex being a brand name of that product.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:43 PM

Rowan - no, I agree with you as I specified above - '4-eyes' was only for boys. IN FACT, MOST OF THE NICKNAMES WERE - A FAT GIRL WOULDN't HAVE GOt CALLED FATTY, IS MY IMPRESSION. [bugger this intrusive shift-lock]. Do others share this impression, that most school-style physically-based nicknames (as distinct fro the friendly pet-name sort) only or mainly used between boys? If so, why? Natural chivalry, or what?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 04:06 PM

Backlight, sidelights, quarterlights, windscreen are the windows in a car, elsewhere called an automobile.
Terms going back to coachbuilding and coaches. Which are not sections of aeroplanes, elsewhere airplanes.
Devices that PRODUCE light (rather than admit it) are lamps. Taillamps, headlamps. Sidelamps are park lights in the US, I think.

I was reminded by the 'Stupidest Australian' thread.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rowan
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

"Four eyes" was the common (in most senses of the word) nickname for boys wearing spectacles, in Oz, from the 40s to at least the 60s; I never heard it being applied to girls.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 11:57 AM

Ah, yes, thanks Lighter — just as I did with your missing Y, tee-hee-hee...

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 11:21 AM

Scarcely otiose: one re-anagrams to check one's work.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:35 AM

Lighter ===What is most needed is to determine whether a full anagram of the KJV would bring forth the complete works of Shakespeare and vice versa.===

Only, surely, according to ancient wisdom, if you had a million monkeys working on it on a million typewriters — or am I getting confused? BTW - the 'vice versa' above is surely otiose or tautologous - work out why!

Re Tubby/Fatty, as distinct from Fatso: my point is that they were always the English words until Fatso got imported from over there — whereupon it proceeded [I had a thread on the phenomenon not long ago & won't go into it all again] to 'grey-squirrel] them. Chubby here, I think, only suggests Mr Checker who invented The Twist [an observation which ought, surely, to carry this thread above the line!].

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:08 AM

"Four-eyes" is extremely familiar in America, though somewhat old-fashioned. Not that it's been replaced, merely that glasses are more fashionable than before.

"Fatso" is still going strong, with "Tubby" and "Fatty" lagging far behind. The sometimes affectionate "Chubby" and "Chubbo" are also heard.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:01 AM

What is most needed is to determine whether a full anagram of the KJV would bring forth the complete works of Shakespeare and vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 03:46 AM

"Four-eyes" was another common nickname for bespectacled boys at school. In the services, officers who word monocles would be called "Windowpanes" — recorded by Roy Palmer,in, I think, Oxford Book Of Sea Songs; also by Dorothy L Sayers in 'Gaudy Night' [1936], in which her monocled detective hero Lord Peter Wimsey meets his WW1 corporal now working as Oxford college porter, who recalls that the men used to call him "Old Winderpane".

Fat boys at school in those days were "Tubby" or "Fatty" rather than the current "Fatso", which I suspect [anyone confirm?] to be of US origin.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 02:13 AM

Reading a book written by a soldier, he calls sunglasses 'sun-gigs.'
Reminded me of a bespectacled pal from my childhood that we called Gigs. Short for gig-lamps, carriage-lamps

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 12:32 AM

Would add, tho, that tho ingenious, this one is rather self-consciously contrived — it is the sheer fortuitousness of 'schoolmaster/the·classroom' which suggests to me more divine intervention [only joking really, honest, or anyhow hyperbolising, if anyone in doubt!] to achieve such felicitous adventitiousness.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM

I suspected some such - but never forget the watchword: ACCURACY MATTERS! & let my vigilance be a lesson to you.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 04:33 PM

Oops. The correct spelling of course is "rhombopteryx."

And there's your "y."

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:54 PM

Not a perfect anagram, I fear — where is the Y in the original name?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:20 PM

MtheGM: Better evidence yet:

Sir Peter Scott's suggested scientific name for the Loch Ness Monster, to allow for its protection as a recognized species after underwater photos of a "fin" were made in 1975:

NESSITERAS RHOMBOPTERIX. ("Ness monster with a diamond-shaped fin)

A foe of Nessie then rearranged the name to spell

MONSTER HOAX BY SIR PETER S.

Extraordinary, wot?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:18 PM

"Flak" did not 'replace' "ack ack" — they meant completely different things. The first simply meant the use of guns designed for use against encroaching enemy bombers {"anti-aircraft guns"}; while flak meant a swift & incessant barrage from any sort of gun — a nearer synonym, tho not exact, would be "crossfire".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Santa
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:11 PM

Although the full German word for Flak comes from WW1, the term in English is WW2. In WW1 it was known as Archie, apparently from the song "Archibald, certainly not!", sung whilst flying through it, but the term did not outlast the war (at least, significantly).

Another common term in WW2 was Ack Ack, which comes from the phonetic alphabet Ack Beer Charlie - AA for Anti Aircraft guns.
I'm not sure when flak replaced Ack Ack, but not until well into the war or perhaps even postwar for full replacement.

Nowadays it is used for almost any kind of criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 03:08 AM

In NZ we call Rubbish Skips Jumbo Bins, but only the circus uses them for effalumps. Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 02:39 AM

Talking of linguistic felicities, two of the few things which make me think there might be a God after all are:—

a. [as a compulsive cruciverbalist] that SCHOOLMASTER is an anagram of THE CLASSROOM

b. that, watching the French Open tennis on tv, I am constantly reminded that the French for Women's Singles is Simple Dames

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 11:37 PM

The insects don't do much damage, Anne.

To refine some of Q's Oz contributions;
schoolie- a student, applied to those on spring break.
toolie- one who preys on vacationing students, etc.
god-botherer- one who distributes religious literature or preaches.
boardie- applied to an article of clothing(?) worn by surf-boarders. I don't know what this means.
nuggetty- full of nerve, an "in your face" type.
trolley- a shopping cart.

"Schoolies' Week" refers to the November week of high jinks (read "debauchery" in the minds of some wowsers) that follows the end of the NSW HSC exams (and their Queensland equivalents) in various North Coast (NSW) towns and the Gold Coast of Queensland. The term "schoolies" usually refers to the newly liberated students.

"Toolies" is the pejorative term applied to older characters who try to crash Schoolies' events and take advantage of the (usually not very innocent) schoolies. "Rurals" (with the first syllable extended to some length) is a somewhat similar (and pejorative) term applied by local teenagers to those older lads who drive around the district in utes (similar but not identical to what those in the US and Canada call "pickups") that have truck-type bull-bars and mud-flaps, more driving lights than you can poke a stick at and a veritable forest of antennae; tuned exhaust pipes and chromed roll-bars (attached with only miniature bolts and thus useless except for show) are also part of the flash.

"God botherer" I've heard applied to anyone who (in the opinion of the speaker) is seen as a religious (Christian) enthusiast.

"Boardie", as mentioned above is the term applied to board shorts (often worn by skate boarders as well as surfers); the shorts are usually to below the knee and very loose-fitting.

"Nuggetty" is not one I've heard the local teenagers using in the sense described above; it's usually used by those slightly older than baby-boomers and refers to someone who is on the short, wiry and fit side, physically.

"Trolleys" can mean "supermarket trolleys" or "shopping trolleys"; the latter term can mean "supermarket trolleys" or your own trolley that you take to the market when shopping. The have various designs, these days but the version I grew up with was a soft fabric around a 3' high frame fitted with a pair of wheels and hand a handle at the top of the frame. When I was a lad, in Melbourne, these were usually called "shopping jeeps".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Anne Lister
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM

They didn't have toilet paper as such in 1650. They mostly used soft cloth, dock leaves, moss - and probably unwanted pamphlets, hence the term and the way it's stuck around. There's a suggestion that in one siege they used cut up tapestries (Ouch!).
OTOH, I'd have thought using the paper of the time would be rather worse than using Bronco or Izal (for those of us in the UK who remember such stuff), so I'd probably have preferred the moss or dock leaves. Presumably minus insects.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: s&r
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:21 PM

Fodder is food -- bumfood

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM

(Les from Hull- perhaps they tore out sheets from Shakespeare First Folio, and that's why auction prices are so high).

Bumf may or may not be related to bumfodder, although that derivation is often cited.
Bum fodder is in Grose, 1785, "A Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue."

Lister's post would push bum fodder back another 150 years.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:09 PM

Flak is from the German abbreviation for Fliegerabwehrkanone = 'anti-aircraft gun' from the Great War onwards.

I understood bumf as 'bum fodder' as it is 'fodder bum' = for the bum. Did they really have toilet paper in 1650?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:06 PM

MtheGM, yes, you are the Michael I addressed.:-) Thanks for looking up the "tunip." I've noticed some definite typos in this book of crosswords which is unusual judging from past copies. They are usually just simple, quick-solve during breakfast which I enjoy. They tend to be fairly cryptic, at times, and actually drive Rog nuts when I ask him if he can answer a clue. They seem to have a penchant for French and think we should all know ancient terms for various things. I think I'll be looking for a new monthly book.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Anne Lister
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 03:42 PM

My husband, who spends his working life in the (English) Civil War year of 1645 (he works in a living history museum) explains "bumf" as "bumfodder" at that time, so it's an older term than the OED might suggest - the staff at the museum have got some written source for it in around 1650.

"Trolleys" is another word used (certainly locally) for male underwear. As well as a shopping cart. No, we don't get confused - context is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:18 PM

bumf (var. sp.) is rather old in English civil service usage, for the voluminous papers they have to deal with (1889 in Dict. Slang; OED). Virginia Wolff (1912) applied it to poor quality paper (OED).
It is in rather wide use in Canada, applied to toilet paper.

This is repetition, it was discussed in an earlier thread (or several).

Allied is tump, applied by Kipling to bad prose (OED).

Flak, of course, also was the shells that Allied 'planes flew through in WW2.

rubbish skip also in the Australian novel (a trash bin).

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:39 PM

A swede to us is a Swedish turnip - what you call a rutabaga, IIRC. Am I the Michael you address query to? — I am indeed a crossword nut: but my impression is that ours tend to be more cryptic, yours over there more definition based. Anyhow, the word 'tunip' is in no dictionary I can find. If any sort of pun or ref intended, I fear it eludes me. Hope someone else can come up with explanation? (I learn from wiki that it was a city in Ancient Syria — doesn't seem to get us much farther forward; & google also gives it as an acronym for some incomprehensible sort of computer protocol!)
LoL - M

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM

Short for bumfodder, toilet paper. Oh! As in "bog roll!":-)

Let's keep those BUTTies clean now!

Riddle me this...in a stupid crossword this week, I thought there was a typo as the clue was "tunip in Britain." I thought "swede" was the answer, because it fit (well, until some of the other words were filled in) and I've seen turnips referred to as "swedes" on Mudcat, unless my memory fails. Anyway, the answer was "aside." Any explanations?

Michael?:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:12 PM

Ron, I believe you are right. It should have been mellifluous, not melismatic. Andy in full throat - it's a frightening thought.

Q, I look forward to your Australian post.

Dave, thanks for the interesting observation about 'butty' as a boat.

As for 'public' vs 'pulic,' if all a person can think to talk about is an innocent typo, I feel sorry for him.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:52 AM

My understanding of "God-botherer" was someone (a very pious person) who spends an inordinate time in prayer (hence bothering God), rather than a religious pamphleteer who 'bothers' his fellow man.

But maybe I've always misunderstood the term!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 09:13 PM

Always thought nuggetty described a smaller person, particularly one best described by Q's explanation.
Boardies might be board-shorts, a nether garment.
One from WWII. Bumf. = paperwork, particularly unnecessary paperwork.
Short for bumfodder, toilet paper.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 09:07 PM

Flak, God-botherer, and trolley are quite widespread--and not just among teenagers. I know trolley is the normal UK word for shopping cart, And you know flak has been around quite a while.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:48 PM

After a grandson looked through a list of "Australian" words I thought I had found in a novel by Australian Garry Disher, I had to eliminate a number of them.
It seems teenage-school lingo has become very similar throughout the English-speaking world, I presume the result of television and the internet, like.

Some remained:

flak- a publicist who distributes 'information'. The usage I am familiar with concerns objections received to a plan, etc.

schoolie- a student, applied to those on spring break.

toolie- one who preys on vacationing students, etc.

god-botherer- one who distributes religious literature or preaches.

boardie- applied to an article of clothing(?) worn by surf-boarders. I don't know what this means.

nuggetty- full of nerve, an "in your face" type.

trolley- a shopping cart.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:28 PM

melismatic=honeyed?

What dictionary is that from?

I'd say rather that mellifluous, not melismatic, is honeyed--and I'd bet that Leeneia is right that melismatic is the wrong word for the context. I'd guess that mellifluous, not melodious, is what the author intended. I'm surprised an editor didn't catch this.

Those of us who do a lot of singing are familiar with melismas.   Though some of us are not really enthusiastic about them.

The melismas in "Messiah" in particular. His yoke is not at all "easy". Maybe since Handel took that music from an Italian love duet--and the original word was "ride", the Italian for "laugh"--much more appropriate for that melisma than "easy".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:54 AM

A butty of the bacon variety derives from buttered (bread) whereas a butty of the work collegue or friend variety probably comes from the days when a powered canal barge towed a smaller unpowered butty or buttie. Simples:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:54 AM

(though of course school itself doesn't mean the same to everyone)
A school is a home for scholars.

Or, from The Beatles cartoon Yellow Submarine:

Look, there's a school of whales.
They look a bit old for school!
Okay, University then.
University of Wales groan,

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:53 AM

aposiopedic? MtheGM, we are most impressed.

aposiopesis - breaking off suddenly, as if unwilling or unable to state what is in one' mind.
======
Nigel, thanks for the explanation about 'butty.' I don't think I'll risk using it, but.
=====
kat - love the sleeping policeman!
======
gnomad - thanks for the info on the window. Gives me another reason to visit York.

A comment of 'public schools.' I just read a book about Charles Dodgson/Lewis Carroll. He attended Rugby and said later that nothing would ever induce him to repeat those three horrible years. (I paraphrase.)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: gnomad
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:32 AM

Oh bummer; by the time I spotted that typo enough folks had posted for me to think I had escaped notice. Yes, public school was what was intended, guilty m'lud.

I think the wikipedia article linked gives a fair idea what sort of school (though of course school itself doesn't mean the same to everyone)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:26 AM

Why, Kat, we are for sure going to continue to be the BUTT of your sallies...

Tho that word has, one recalls, a connotation in USA which it entirely lacks over here... As any silly ASS would realise.

Love Michael

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:22 AM

And, I woud have assumed someone was speaking of a "bacon butty"...another one learned on Mudcat!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:08 AM

However, in Scotland, a public school was until recently "what most people elsewhere would logically call a private school". Because of the creeping Anglicisation of Scottish culture, private boarding schools are often referred to by the English term. I have though, always maintained that Tony Blair went to an English public school in the middle of Edinburgh!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: treewind
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:21 AM

"bye-election' started as a joke

We (UK) also have bye-laws. In both cases the prefix means local in contrast to national, so I thinks it's perfectly serious.

c.f. Highways and byways - major and minor roads

And gnomad:
"pulic schoolboy"
Assuming you meant public schoolboy, that requires further translation as in Britain a "public school" is what most people elsewhere would logically call a private school. (there is a historic explanation that makes sense, honest)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: IanC
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:48 AM

melismatic = honeyed.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:43 AM

Nigel - Of course; but 'but' here could bear more than one meaning in the dialect: could imply 'indeed' in its intensitive form; or it could mean 'mate'; or this last, aposeopetic meaning of 'I could say more if I wanted but won't' might just be present — but...

I believe 'butty' or 'butt' for pal, like 'marrer', meant originally a workmate in a coalmine & started in that industry. It was a word where my wife originated, which was the Forest of Dean in Gloucestershire on Welsh borders, which used to be coalmining country [my father-in-law started his life at 14 as pit-pony boy underground]; but is also found, my impression is, in NE in addition to 'marrer', & in parts of Lancs, Notts &c — all formerly colliery country.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:12 AM

Just to confuse things, you also hear 'but' at the end of sentences as a shortened form of "butty"=pal
So "See ya but" means "so long for now", NOT "Your posterior is on display"
And "He's a good man, but" does not mean that there is a negative comment which could be made but which is being left out.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: gnomad
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 04:23 AM

1. York Minster is conventional in having a great West Door, as noted above. At the east end it has the remarkable Great East Window, which was recently in the news. Thought to be the oldest mediaeval window known to be the work of one man, it was completed in 1408, BBC news item with picture

2. I would think this is an Anglicisation of the French verb boulverser; various meanings including to overturn, overwhelm or shatter. I would take this to refer to an upturned beetle, which is consequently in a panic. I haven't come across this usage before, but Hill evidently has a fondness for the more obscure corners of the language, and good for him.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:43 PM

I dogear the bottom of pages, too, but only to my own books, never to one borrowed!

This has inspired me. I think I will get down my granddad's four volume dictionary set from the late 1800s and see what words I can find which are not used much these days and/or meanings which may have changed.

I'll never forget learning, here, that what we call a "speed bump" is known as a "sleeping policeman" over there. I love that!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:05 PM

Les in C - Indeed, as I said, I associate that 'but' with Geordie. But it appeared here in association with Dalziel & P, who are unarguably Yorkshire (& their author presumably also?), & apparently used in the sense I adumbrated of 'pay attention to what I've just said'. I particularly associate it with the Terry character [James Bolam] in the old 'Likely Lads' sitcoms, which had a Newcastle setting.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:57 PM

Apparently the TV series has not been available on DVD in the U.S., but Amazon will have it in March 2010.

On the translation front, the author of this page says that the concluding "but" is for "however".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:36 PM

You're right about the door in the Minster. It's at the west end and it's known as the West Door. There's no door at the east end.

I don't think that Yorkshiremen do that 'but' thing either, but Yorkshire's a big place and I haven't met everyone yet. You can always tell a Yorkshireman, but you can't tell him much.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:31 PM

And when the Victorian police acquired their Dauphin helicopter, with its distinctive turbine noise distinguishing it from all other aircraft over Melbourne, the Richmond teenagers instantly named it "The Pork Chopper".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:20 PM

In Oz, the term 'jellybeans' refers to a marked police car, with occupants.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:59 PM

This sounds like a good series. We'll have to keep an eye out for it... and we'll likely be back to be reminded of the translations!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:44 AM

"two-tone horn and blue flashing lights."

Thanks, Dave. I never would have guessed that. I was thinking 'two patrolmen in blue uniforms.'

Are the two tones still the infamous 'tri-tone,' the devil in music?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 01:26 AM

Don't know why I typed Matt. Possibly because I named my son that. Sorry.
And, I don't care what they call me, as long as it is in good time for meals.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:51 AM

Thanks, Gurney - but my name is Michael [or Mike] - not Matt[hew], nor Mark as someone else seems to think.

— Just in interests of accuracy, you understand: I am a believer in the old saying, "It doesn't matter what anybody calls you, so long as they don't call you 'Plum·Pudding' and eat you up!"; but my watchword is ever "Accuracy matters".

Regards - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:43 AM

MatttheGM, the suffix 'but' is commonly used here in NZ.
A typical sentence might be "He's a bit of a hard case. -All right, but."
Means 'he's a comedian, but a good bloke.'

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:24 AM

Re Dog-earing pages — my own proctice is a light, so erasable if required, page ref & pencil note on the back blank fly-leaf: saves dog-earing pages or inserting bits of paper that keep falling out.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:20 PM

Blues and twos is when an emergency vehicle has on its two-tone horn and blue flashing lights. In America, I think they use red lights ("Hurricane").

Mills and Bon is a publisher of cheap formulaic romantic novels.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:08 PM

I've been re-reading the best parts. Here are some more:

1. I don't have the exact reference, but near the beginning is something about "the great eastern door" of the cathedral. Cathedrals usually have their big door at the west.

Is York an exception?

2. a BOULEVERSED beetle

3. a MILLS and BOON fan

4. I believe there's a wrong word used in this one: "in a bass-baritone more leathery than velvety but nonetheless melismatic he boomed out the opening lines of 'Happy Days are Here Again.'"

I think he means 'melodious.' In a melismatic song syllables have more than one note. Such as

and he shall puri - fa ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah -y the sons of Levi.

5. He (a cop) was more concerned with paper chases than BLUES AND TWOS hot pursuit.

6. She was long practiced in the art of SCIA-MIMICRY.

7. I had to smile at this one: Her expression as she made her way back to Maggie was GORGONIAN.

I saw that it was derived from the Gorgon Medusa, of course, but my first thought was of the sea creature, the gorgonian, or sea fan.
She was on a yacht; maybe she'd fallen overboard and had a sea fan plastered on her face.
=======
Les, that was an astute observation about the tense in 'going on' and 'going off.'

I enjoy hearing from all you northerners on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

Aye 'appen the' 'as, Geoff lad, 'appen the' 'as.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Tangledwood
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM

- but I do not, definitely do not dog-ear, mark or otherwise deface my books. It is a miserable practice, akin to spitting on the sidewalk. Harrr-umpf!

Hurray Q! You may borrow my books anytime.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:42 PM

Q - I suspect that in the telly versions, they probably removed expressions for the benefit of Southern England, so THEY could understand.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM

I think that going off and going on are a difference in tense. Going on is present and going off is future, as in what is going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:47 PM

A by-election in Canada is much the same as in UK- an election in a riding (defined voting district) caused by death or resignation.

I will get to the Australian mystery shortly- but I do not, definitely do not dog-ear, mark or otherwise deface my books. It is a miserable practice, akin to spitting on the sidewalk. Harrr-umpf!
I enjoyed the Dalziel and Pasco mysteries on the BBC TV versions distributed here in Canada. I think they removed expressions that might be unknown to a general English-speaking audience, since I don't recall any that boggled me. I may buy the DVDs eventually. I have one or two of the books, but haven't read them yet.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM

Going off -
Of food = going bad.
Of a relationship = cooling down
Of cement = hardening
Of a situation = about to explode
Of a bomb = ditto

I never thought about it before but what a usefull muti-purpose phrase!

Ey up.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:16 PM

This use of "but" as a discrete interjection at end of a sentence represents a sort of emphasis of the content of the preceding sentence. It is, I think, a purely Northern English usage, which I associate particularly with 'Geordie', the dialect of Newcastle-uon-Tyne — tho here {'D&P'} it appears to be used in Yorkshire also.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:35 PM

I wonder if 'bye-election' started as a joke. Next it will be called a 'bye-bye election.'

I've been thinking about Fat Andy and his archaic dialect. (Of course I realized that few people talk like that anymore.)

Dalziel is using the old speech to send a message, and that message is, "I'm not one of your kind." Whether the listener is a subordinate, an amoral executive, a drunken lout, or one of The Better Sort, Dalziel is saying "We don't have a bond. We will not wink at anything. There's is nothing that we won't bring up." He represents the Old Order.

When he's not being the boss, he drops it. For example, when he hears that a woman's little daughter died, he says, 'I'm sorry, luv. Didn't know. Must have been terrible.' The situation calls for straightforward, everyday English, and he uses it.

Long ago I studied 'Antigone,' where the old order was implacable and unchangeable. Dalziel represents that.

Pascoe is modern, rational, and reasonable. Where Dalziel pounds the truth out of people, Pascoe sidewinds past their defenses. Don't trust either of them. Better yet, keep to the straight and narrow way.   

Q - I look forward to your post on Australian terms.

A tip - when a page has a good term, dog-ear the bottom of it. (Other people never dog-ear the bottom.) Later you can find all the dog-ears and type them up.

Leadfingers, your ""he's stupid or crazy, one" reminds me of Dalziel's "he's stupid or crazy, but." Different meaning, but same prosody.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:46 AM

A 'by-election' here in UK is a subsidiary election in only one constituency caused by the death or resignation of its Member of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:34 AM

Leeneia:

Thank you for this thread and your initial informative mss.

in my neck of the woods a WAG stands for "Wild Ass Guess", it is a genuine term for when you have to start with a number just to address a first cut at a problem.

I'm gonna assume a by-election is an election between a general election, which may have different context between US and GB. It's a term I've not used in US.

Theres a cute American term from the south that I only learned from reading Cold Sassy Tree and then I heard it in a Kinky Friedman Song:

"he's stupid or crazy one." The 'one' meaning that the subject is 'one of' the selection stupid or crazy. It's almost mathematical in its structure.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Ringer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:11 AM

The "flowery-L-used-to-denote-the-pound-sterling" symbol is a continual source of problems on computer-printers, particularly older ones. I've lost count of the times I've had to change a printer setting to say "print £ when sent #" (or vice-versa) because users say "It won't print a pound"

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:46 AM

This may be pertinent, OTOH it may be totally misleading.

In the 1950's and early 60's, computers using Teletypes for input/output had a limited character set (64-char ASCII). For the UK market, the # symbol (unknown on this side of the Pond at the time) was replaced by £ - using the same ASCII code. So equipment intended for the other market printed the "wrong" character, a frequent source of confusion for those not in the know. Maybe the two signs eventually came to be thought of as equivalent.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:22 AM

I don't think I've ever seen # used to mean lb. The most common use I've come across is to signify octal numbers, eg #77777777 = -1.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:28 PM

I guess that if "slowing down" and "slowing up" can mean the same thing, then "going on" and "going off" can do likewise.

The way prepositions are used in coined phrases sometimes seems to have little to do with their literal meanings. We all know the "up" has something to do with height, but when someone asks you to "wait up", they don't literally mean you should climb a ladder and wait at the top rung.

And as far as the "pound sign" thing goes, I'll never get used to it. To me, "#" is the "number sign". I don't think I've ever used it to indicate a pound. It's too easy to use the "lb." abbreviation. When some automated call system tells me to press the "pound sign" I have to stop and think which one it is. Same with the "star" button. It's not a %#$@& star, it's an asterisk!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:08 PM

"pertinEnt" -- mnemonic is to think of 'impertinent', whose basic meaning is 'irrelevant, tho has evolved to mean 'cheeky'...

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:42 PM

What about number 4, the Nine-ten thing?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

I think the connection between hash key and cross-hatch (in art) is on the right track.

Somebody said he didn't understand why Americans call it the pound key. It's because it was the sign for a pound in weight.

With this book, I've gone to the effort of looking up Reginald Hill's obscure words. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

We have a deal - he can use all the obscure words he wants, and I don't have to read any passages in italics. There seems to be an unwritten rule that nothing truly pertinant to solving the mystery is in italics.

[How do you spell 'pertinant' anyway?]

I understand that York hosts an early music festival. I dream of going there someday.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 03:57 PM

According to Oxford, hash (5): to chop into small pieces from Old French hacher to chop up.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:44 PM

Thanks everybody, for the pleasant and informative responses.

As for 'yardie,' the drug-dealer definition fits the case.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:13 PM

LOVE THIS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Tangledwood
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM

It doesn't say how it got that name. Do you suppose it's because it resembles the crosswise cuts you make, when chopping up meat to make hash?

I thought it was a corruption, or perhaps variation, of hatch; as in cross-hatch.

hatch
tr.v. hatched, hatch·ing, hatch·es
To shade by drawing or etching fine parallel or crossed lines on.
n.
A fine line used in hatching.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:17 PM

Rumncoke - if they were from the South, they weren't pretending...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:46 PM

From Number sign (#) at Wikipedia:

"In most English-speaking countries outside North America, the symbol is usually called the hash mark, hash sign, or hash symbol, and the corresponding telephone key is the hash key."

It doesn't say how it got that name. Do you suppose it's because it resembles the crosswise cuts you make, when chopping up meat to make hash?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rumncoke
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:37 PM

You got me - I lived in Barnsley from the age of 2 until I was 18 and left for Polytechnic in the South, where they pretended they could not understand me.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:45 PM

Q - Food "going off" = going stale or rotten, is same usage in UK.
As for usage in the book, I would I would tend to use "What's going on?" as a query about the location I had just arrived at, something "going on" might be long term and not exciting.
Fireworks, on the other hand, definitely "go off", as do explosions. In the context of policing, it is likely to be where, and what "the action" is.

Divagations also a new one for me. Obviously another word rescued from obscurity.

I really must get around to reading some of the Dalziel and Pascoe stories. I have enjoyed the telly versions and ought to get my finger out.
Just for the record, for those who have only seen the surname name in print, Dalziel (Scottish?) is pronounced Dee-yell.


On the subject of Thee and Thou's, I grew up in Mid Yorkshire, specifically Bradford. Usage of thees and thous tended to be more common in my grandmother's generation and not as common when I was growing up (early 60's). We still used the glottal 't for "the", but in general would use "your" rather than "thy". There were exceptions, and sometimes traditional usage and modern would mix and match.
The place where use of Thee is still common natural speech is Barnsley in South Yorkshire (West Riding for traditionalists).

Quack!
Geoff the Duck (We fly backwards over Bradford to keep the muck out of our eyes).

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM

Coming back to the 'Yardie" question — it is a convention of the English detective novel that the local force will generally resent their Chief Constable's decision to 'call in the Yard', as a vote of no-confidence in their own ability to solve the case; esp, as would appear to be the case here in the eyes of Superintendent Dalziel & Inspector Pascoe [or whatever ranks they may have achieved in this particular novel], the incomer is often represented as officious, patronising, and self-important (all attributes subsumed in that meaningful adjective 'jumped-up').

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:54 PM

I am reading an Australian mystery novel. I will post a few from it later today.
English, a wonderful language!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:52 PM

Not pertinent, but 'going off' when applied to food means spoiling. North American only or also UK?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rumncoke
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:42 PM

Tha should ear me readin out ot t'King James version o t'bible - not that tha wouldst unerstan but one word i'ten but ah'm teld it's an education for them as as on'y ever eard acters and t'like talkin owd fashioned on t' telly.

And it's not as though av gotten an accent or owt, it tha could ear sum ot owd lads gooin in - theein and thaain awaa - tha'ud not mak ony sense out on it.



Oh yes - things 'going off' are usually a bit livelier than what is 'going on'.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: gnomad
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:11 PM

Oh yes, Thee and Thou; still in some use, though thou is frequently rendered as tha' or even ta'. Thy also in some use though frequently with a shorter i sound, notably in the reflexive thiself construction.

14th Century is far too early, there are dozens of examples in Shakespeare (1560s to 1616) and the 1662 Book of Common Prayer is also full of them. It remained in daily use until the latter half of the 20th Century, when its language was still well understood, though in dwindling current use.

These forms of speech are still current, though becoming less so, in North and West Yorkshire, mainly among the older generations but not exclusively. Nationwide the younger generations are sadly affected by TV speech and many adopt accents and speech patterns unnatural to their origins, as do some of the older ones too, Blair being a prime example. James Herriot's old practise is still functioning about 30 miles west of here, he wasn't exaggerating or romanticising the speech patterns of the time and area.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:09 PM

... tho Yardie could of course ref, as others above suggest, to member of West Indian drug gang - depends on the context; as this a detective novel and he 'jumped-up' [i.e. irritatingly self-important] I thought the Scotland Yard detective explanation the more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:05 PM

1 King Charles's Head - something with which one is irrationally obsessed to the extent of never being able to exclude it from one's thoughts - as is the eccentric Mr Dick in Dickens's David Copperfield, who would like to be a writer, but cannot keep King Charles's Head out of whatever he writes.
2. By-Election — strictly correct: but Chambers Dict gives bye- as alternative prefix to by- in sense of 'subsidiary', so may be perhaps regarded as alternatives.
6. WAG - a fashionable tabloid-press-coined acronym a few years back for Wives·And·Girlfriends of fashionable and prominent professional soccer players who would accompany them for purposes of shopping and celebration when they went abroad to play international matches: one of most newsworthy of whom was Colleen, fianceé & subsequently wife of ...
7. ... Wayne Rooney, Manchester United and England striker and prolific goal-scorer [ironice — he is not noted for gentle courtesy even on a good day]
9. Going off - idiom for in the process of occurring (both Coming-off & [as you observe], more conventionally Going-on are sort-of colloquial alternatives).
9. Yardie - probably, in the context, a police officer called in by local police to assist in an investigation from the main Criminal Investigation Department at New Scotland YARD, London, known colloquially as The Yard.
11. Bunteresque - usually comically obese, deceitful & cowardly, like Billy Bunter ("the fattest schoolboy on earth"), a long-ago humorous novel strip-comic character invented by Frank Richards [pseud. of Charles Hamilton, 1876-1961]; hence over-nourished and spoilt in temperament.Used of a council perhaps with an overtone of self-importantly tho metaphorically over-expanded.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM

I'm a bit confused Leenia - Do you need translaltions and explanations ?

WAG = refers particularly to Footballers Wives and Girlfriends

Wayne Rooney is a Man United Footballer

Yardies are Jamaican Criminals

So there's a start

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: gnomad
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:43 AM

1. ??
2. So did I
3. New to me too, thanks
4. ??
5. See ans 3
6. Wives and Girlfriends (usually of some worthless celebrity/sportsman)
7. A footballer, I don't follow sports but seem to recall he is supposedly uglier & dumber than most.
8. You're right, dunno why you now call it pound, I seem to recall it being a hash-mark in American stories from the 1940s.
9. Either is used in Britain, slightly more excitement implied in the "off" usage, but no real difference.
10. Street-gang member, probably of Jamaican origin see Wikipedia
11. Resembling Billy Bunter a foolish, gluttonous, pulic schoolboy from fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:18 AM

I missed another Word Rescue:

...the Dalziel EIDOLON...

'eidolon - an unsubstantial image or phantasm.' Now we know.

Let's see if we can get Spaw to use this word.

Subject: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:47 AM

Last night I finished the new Reginald Hill mystery, 'Midnight Fugue.' It is somewhat byzantine (family code for littered with corpses and with as many twists as a crepe-paper streamer). But it's still a good book.

It's another Dalziel-Pascoe yarn, set in Mid-Yorkshire. But enough of that, here's the stuff to translate:

1. This man... was evidently Owen's KING CHARLES'S HEAD.

2. the BYE-ELECTION. (I thought it was by-election.)

3. the day's DIVAGATIONS.

This one is not a matter of cross-pond variation. Reginald Hill conducts Word Rescue the way others conduct breed rescue with dogs. This one means 'wandering (when walking) or digressing (when talking.) I'm telling you this so you can feel superior when you read the book and enounter it.

4. [said of a journalist] "The others call him NINE TEN. Knows more about tomorrow than he does about today."



5. ...the EPISEMATIC markings...

Another word rescue. These are markings by which a member of a species recognizes another of its own kind

6. of the WAG..   What's a WAG?

7. with the gentle courtesy of WAYNE ROONEY on a bad day...

8, ...he didn't press the HASH key...

Just an observation here. We Americans call it the 'pound key.' That would never work for you guys.

9. ...tell him what's GOING OFF and where...

Is this police lingo or the usual way to put it? Because we say 'what's going ON..."

10. ...confronted by a jumped-up YARDIE...

11. ...a wasteland of derelict mills that successive BUNTERESQUE councils promised to transform...

One final note. Recently I read a book about English that said the use of 'thee' and 'thou' died out in the 14th Century. I could only respnd, "Tha's not abreast of Mid-Yorkshire CID and James Herriot, but."