LP copying DON'TS

Subject: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM

I don't know if this has been said before, -probably, but if so, I missed it.

DON'T record your LPs onto CD-RWs!
I just found out that they won't play on CD players. Won't even spin up.
I just did four of them. Ah well, I can use the spare space for business records, and listen to Stefan Grossman and John Renbourn without changing CDs. :-)

Any other 'traps for young players?'

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: RTim
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

This all depends upon the equipment you use!
I have no problem with my Tascam CD recorder!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: semi-submersible
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:35 PM

Don't let the turntable be still turning, when the time comes for your heavy-footed 8- or 10-year-old to bounce in the door after school!

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:37 PM

If it's a 33 1/3 rpm, make sure you're not recording it at a speed of 45 rpm, otherwise everything will sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM

I assume you know that John Renbourn and Stefan Grossman did a few records together, so you don't really need to make your own.

Shanachie offers, on CD, a collection of numbers recorded in the late 1970s.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:46 PM

Vinyl to MP3 or WAV though either a sound card input or a dedicated turntable. No need to burn them to CDs then unless you particularly want to. If you do, just use something like Nero to create (burn) an audio CD from sound files. Simples:-)

Oh - And dont try to put the vinyl into your CD writer. They don't work very well after you have folded them...

:D

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:52 PM

And for SURE don't play 33 1/3s at 78. This could happen to yer favourite record.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:13 PM

I've recorded through from LP via LP Recorder, which converts the signal to WMA, and burned with Nero. Works fine burning to CD-Rs, done about 20 of them. I had no CD-Rs left, so I used CD-RWs.
These play OK on the computer (where I tested them,) but not at all on either of my CD players. As I said, they won't spin.

Not a tragedy, the WAV files are still on the computer, the CD cases are printed, just have to re-burn with CD-Rs.

PDQ, these ARE some of the Renbourne-Grossman recordings from the late 70s. I bought them then, on LP. So good, they make you want to spit!
David, the good stereo has no 'modern' inputs except a CD player. I bought it in '75. Your last quip reminds me....

When I lived in England, a girlfriend left a LP half on the window-sill in the sun. It became a L-shaped LP. So, she ironed it flat again. That took "All the little grooves out." She them tried to put them back in, with a pin.....
She told me all about it. When I got up from the floor, she was no longer my girlfriend.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:24 PM

Apparently the best way to undo a warped LP is to put it between two sheets of glass, with a weight [not too heavy] on top, leave near a warm place, but not hot, and it will flatten them out.
never tried it, and I still have a copy of NYAAAAH, by Noel Murphy, which wobbles madly, and frightens the transcription arm of my record deck.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:35 PM

Just playing one of the offending CD-RWs (on the computer) with Stefan doing something like 'Ragtime Millionaire.' Her indoors walked past the office and said "That sounds like Dave Bennett."
Flattery on several counts, Dave!
Not a bad ear, my missus.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM

I have one of those dedicated Ion turntable to PC players - it works just fine with Audacity, you can edit out scratches and hiss if you care to spend the time, and you can separate the tracks out afterwards if you want to leave it to play whilst you go and visit the bathroom... just don't let the cat in as you leave.

I went the whole hog in the summer and bought an Ion Tape to PC machine... I must say I'm not impressed. Despite many tweakings and consulting the manual, the tapes record at a much reduced volume so that playback is patchy. You also have to be on hand to separate the tracks in real time as I've not yet discovered a way to edit the WAV once it's been made. It will loving reproduce every crackle and stretch and I've still not found a way of tweaking those either... Still, it's converted a few tapes now, and I know at least one of those may not last to the end of the year...

LTS

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:42 PM

I'm interested in how to straighten vinyl

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gene
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

I use Creative Wave to edit [& split] WAV FILES....and as noted above, ENTIRE sides A or B or BOTH of either LPS or CASsettes can be burned to individual songs on a cd easily with NERO.

and an MP3 Decoder can convert mp3s to WAV files, if desired.

and in response to the above post about recording 33 or 45 rpm records at 78 rpm or 78 at 33 rpm, --

there are programs to correct the WAV to the proper speed.

consequently, 78 rpm records can be recorded at 33 1/3 rpm and corrected to the 78 rpm speed.. a useful feature for many newer
record players that only play at 45 and 33 rpm.

tho it is not advised to try that on 78s in bad condition, i.e.
many large or deep scratches... not good for the stylus...

also, i have found that many brands of cds react differently in
many brands of players. Probably due to the QUALITY of each.

G

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:42 PM

Dont convert any William Shatner CDs to MP3s....you loose the subtle quality of his voice. However, if you can find a way to speed it up, it does improve them a bit. Playing his CD's backwards (if you can figure it out) , I am told, may add an artistic quality to his fine vocals.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:00 PM

I use an old belt-drive turntable from my long-gone stack system. All I had to do was buy a pre-amp for about thirty quid to connect it to the PC and I was away. I worry slightly about the Ion turntable and cassette jobbies. Do they actually play your records/tapes at constant speed, or are they like most cheapos of that ilk, beset with wow and flutter?

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:13 PM

John and Richard, if you look at vinyl carefully, it looks as if the disc is considerably thicker at the label, then flat until it reaches the 'start' edge. I don't think that the 'glass idea would work perfectly unless there were 'label-sized' holes in it, or perhaps foamed plastic (with holes) on either side, which would then mean you needed more heat because it would be insulating the record....
Bugger it! put a little weight (Bluetac? Plasticine?) on the tone-arm and digitise it.
Liz, you could download a shareware(limited)copy of LP Recorder and try that for your tapes. It doesn't seem to mind what the input is, and is simple to use. Or I couldn't use it! It is just a digitiser. If you wanted to clean up, there is Audacity.
Might work, and it costs nothing. Works with my ordinary tapedeck, piggybacked into the line-in with turntable (which HAS a preamp) and a minidisc recorder.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:18 PM

Steve, my Optimus 'cheapo' turntable performs impeccably to my ear.
My big linear-arm turntable STAYS IN THE LOUNGE, by royal order.

Until all the LPs get digitised, I'll bet.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:22 PM

I use an Ion CD Turntable to convert LPs to CDs. It makes fine copies with good LPs, but magnifies imperfections. It (the turntable) came with Audacity editing software, but I haven't figured it out yet...probably never will

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:26 PM

. I for got to end the last post.

For Steve Shaw--I don't know that I could claim broadcast quality for Ion CDs, but they're plenty good enough for my old Sansui stereo.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Artful Codger
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 09:30 PM

Audacity can also handle WAV splitting. Automatic track detection may more problematic due to the higher ambient noise level on most tapes, so if setting a higher level doesn't help, you may have to split tracks manually.

To Gurney: If warping is a problem, it's because the record is warped way beyond the height of the label part. You don't need to get the record entirely flat, just flat enough that the arm doesn't pop off the record like a baby on a roller coaster, and the sound doesn't waver like an opera singer on Quaaludes.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:13 AM

Of the 4 CD players we have the boombox and the Discman don't like most CD-RW but OK with CD-R. One of the HiFi combi setups is OK with CD-R but not CD-RW the other only takes CD-R. Best to try one before going ahead with the rest.

RtS

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:05 AM

I just had a horrible thought. There may be people reading thic thread, who don't know what an LP is!

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:18 AM

I've had so much trouble with failed CDRs and CDRWs that I honestly couldn't recommend them for permanent storage. If you're digitising your vinyl/cassette collection, the sensible approach is to store the digitised files on computer, or external hard drive, and make sure they're properly backed up.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Hamish
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:20 AM

It seems that GIGO* still applies. Don't expect an £80 turntable to produce a good signal just because it's got a USB interface.

*Garbage In, Garbage Out

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:20 AM

I use my old Garrard Zero 100 SB via a Citronics USB line in/out device, which has a switchable RIAA equaliser. If you don't use RIAA equalisation, you lose the bass response. It was used to allow greater groove density.

The old Garrard has a 'tangential tracking arm' which, coupled with an elliptical stylus, gives better tracking accuracy and will even play discs properly that skip on other decks.

One problem with CDRs and (particularly) CDRWs is the 'reflectivity' of the substrate, causing playback issues - not enough light being reflected from the laser. Sometimes they do not read at all, but more annoyingly they might play, but keep skipping or sounding distorted!

Some CD players are designed specifically to reject CDR/CDRW disks, too. We had a spate of problems with CD modules in a particular brand of industrial PA amplifier because the manufacturer believed they were justified in blocking CDRs - only commercial CDs could be played. They quickly realised they were shooting themselves in the foot!

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:23 AM

Once again I have to recommend the best programme I have found so far.
I have used Soundforge for many years - wonderful for in depth work, but too complicated for straight transfer work.
Audacity never seems to do what I want.

Go for POLDERBITS SOUND RECORDER
Thats POLDERBITS spelt P O L D E R B I T S

Google - download unlimited facility 7 day trial then stump up a measly £25 or so.

Oh alright heres a Blickie

Polderbits sound recorder

Andy (no connection with polderpeople just very impressed)

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: treewind
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 07:42 AM

There may be people reading this thread, who don't know what an LP is!
That's OK, if they don't have any they don't need to read all this!

CDRW is a waste of time and money - they seemed to make sense when all kinds or recordable CD were expensive, but now CDR is so cheap you can use them for write/carry/read/throw away transfers. And for permanent storage there's no point in the extra expense and lower reliability of rewritable CDs.

For computer data storage on 12cm discs, DVD-RAM is the best of the lot - been around for years, and not as outrageously expensive as it used to be, and I suspect more reliable than the others.

Anahata

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 09:17 AM

I have a FIDELITY CMC10 "music centre", radio/records/tape, (circa 1980) which, also by royal proclamation, must stay in its established position. So, I record all three forms on Sony Minidisc using the earphones socket, transfer and burn with NERO or MAGIX onto both CDW or CD-RW and get very acceptable results.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 11:48 AM

I'm the unhappy owner of a RCA CD Recorder and Player. It is inconvenient, directions are incomplete, results are hinky.

They do not respond to customer service inquiries.

Don't buy one of those. After this, I wouldn't buy ANYTHING by RCA.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:01 PM

Don't worry that your CD player can't read your CDRW, your computer still can, so your recording effort isn't wasted. Just read it and re- record onto some medium that works. It may be that an olde-worlde CD only writer might give more compatible results for an olde- fashioned CD player than a modern CD/DVD writer- it's all down to pit sizes, contrast and so on.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Folknacious
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

I've burned loads of CDRs (not CDRWs) for my own home or car use over the past decade or more. I have never had a problem with them playing on anything other than very early prehistoric CD decks, late '80s/ early '90s ones. I've not so far found one that still won't play, even decade-old ones, other than where a few were left for several years in a rack on a window sill and the outward-facing edges of the discs got visibly degraded by the sunlight/heat.

My current convenience method of digitising off vinyl is to play it into the line input of a little Marantz portable WAV recorder, dump the files onto my iMac (which is in another room from my record deck) and chop the tracks up in Garageband 5. I've made a standard effects pre-set for Garageband that adds a bit of subtle compression and EQ that seems to nicely compensate for the (lack of) qualities of my record deck, and it doesn't take long to get very good at start edits and fades. iTunes does the rest for burning the CDs.

We're blessed with affordable, user-friendly and reliable technology these days.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 12:30 PM

I'm using a digital recorder (Olympus LS10) with a line in direct from my hifi turntable. This can record in MP3. These then go into the computer, edited using Roxio Sound Editor to clean up the recording and to split up the tracks. I only ever split the tracks manually. Then the tracks go into iTunes and I add in the rest of the information I want often including lyrics downloaded from thr Internet.

I appreciate that there are many other ways of doing this job, but I thought I'd mention that this system really works for me.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:57 PM

treewind: DVD-RAM is one of the least commonly supported formats. For long-term storage, or backup for potential transfer to another/a new computer, it's a risky choice.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:43 AM

Don't lose the instruction manual...

Have a day at home, some stuff to do so thought I'd run some LPs through the Ion digitiser... can I remember how to do it? Can I buggery!

All the cables are in place, all the lights are on, but no sound is coming out and I'm at a loss as to what to do next.... HELP!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:49 AM

D'oh... it's the button marked 'generate'.... Guh!!

I feel obliged to point out it's been over a year since I did any transcribing, I'm at that certain age and I'm a natural blonde...

LTS

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Micca
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:19 AM

Liz,in an emergency you can very often find the Manual on line by typing in the equipment name, model number and "Manual" and Manuel will search and find (usually) what you need.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:45 AM

Don't forget you have to turn the LP things over to get the rest of of the tracks!!! It really has been TOO long since I played any vinyl. It's a bit of a mixed bag, like visiting an old friend... you suddenly realise why you liked them so much, so long ago, or else wonder why you've held on to them all this time.

LTS

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:23 AM

I suppose that one of the big DONTs not yet mentioned is:
DONT believe that you have a right to make multiple copies of copyright works, one CD for back-up, one for the CD player in the lounge, another for use in the car ...

It's amazing how often people forget!

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:59 AM

Back up copy of everything on the external hard-drive, from where I lift individual tracks onto my MP3s, some in the computer... that's it. Basically, we're digitising our music collections because the media of vinyl and magnetic tape are just too fragile to last much longer. Some cassettes are already degrading after less than 20 years, the vinyl can't be much behind it.

It depends entirely on the interpretation of 'reasonable personal use'.

LTS

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM

I have a Rotel turntable with a Sure cartridge all purchsed in circa 1975. I use this in conjunction with a Terratec pre-amp. All works a treat. Software I use is Goldwave, puchased licence a few years ago, excellent.

DON'T trust CDRs, they don't last. Put music files on Hard Drive, and BACK-UP.

As a result of a recommendation on a Mudcat thread, I have recently purchased some Taiyo Yuden CDRs. Hoping these will last.

Rog

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: peregrina
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM

Actually vinyl and tapes are rated as more durable--unless CDs are archival quality, their 'official life' is not as long as the others. Digitization itself (again, in archival terms) requires constant migration; data in a 'lossy format' (mp3) will lose something with each migration. --Backing up hard drive is essential.... True, tapes and vinyl are more vulnerable to obvious mechanical mishaps than CDs but they are in other respects more stable. Finally, the devices to play music (however it is stored) are prone to become obselete. Turntables may well outlast currrent CD-playing or Mp3-playing software.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: GUEST,GUEST, jeem
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 02:33 PM

"data in a 'lossy format' (mp3) will lose something with each migration."

It will lose something (in theory) if you decode the mp3 and recode the result; it loses nothing if you just copy the mp3 file, unless your hardware is defective.

-jeem

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM

I'm afraid that once youve "archived" your quality L.P.s to MP3 or similar the damage is done. The very act of digitising is by definition a distortion and an approximation of the original. The detail lost can NEVER be recovered. Archive for convenience by all means but do store your treasured L.P.s carefully. In a hundred years from now it will be obvious what they are and a suitable pin and transducer will reproduce the sound as good as new.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:01 PM

Miskin, my thought exactly. Except for the pin bit. I'm already making plans how and where to store the LPs, but it's a problem.

Roof-space? Too warm in summer. Sub-tropical climate.
No cellar.
Underfloor? Wet in winter.
In the rooms? There's 4 yards of them, and one of the reasons for digitising is to get them out of the lounge without losing them, but still being able to play them. Don't want to stack them.
Plywood boxes with polystyrene insulation, somewhere.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: GUEST,JimP
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:45 PM

I've tried a couple of things, and finally settled on RipVinyl:

RipVinyl

You can record either in .mp2 or .wav. It has a basic editing capability for separating tracks, and has a recording interface similar to the one I grew up with (taping from LP to cassette tape).

Like Andy, I have no connection to the RipVinyl people; I just like their software.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:29 AM

Here's a thought... if they make an MP3 that will hold 8GB - that's about 1200 tracks or more if they're modern short songs - why does the track playing display only go up to 999? Why can't we have that 4th digit? And does it mean it will only play the 999 it can display on the counter? Why does it need to tell me the technical details like output and equalizer when all I want to know is what track is it and who sings it?

LTS

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 02:03 AM

Looks good, JimP. Looks similar to LP Recorder, and cheaper.

Liz, modern short songs? Wash your fingers out with soap and water!
I've found that some numbers recorded on LP are hard to separate, because the segue into the next number without a formal break. If you leave them joined when you load them that will help the problem, one title, two songs.
I just did one double-LP that only really had three breaks, that was when I turned the records over... It would be tedious to separate that. Have to go over it and fade, fade, fade....

If I could be bothered. I'm mostly just recording LPs as one big file. Its not as if I'm ever likely to turn them into real CDs, and I have the WAVs if I want to do that.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:58 AM

Gurney - look at polderbits!
It seperates tracks and even removes 30 min gap I sometimes create when I forget to turn over.

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 11:49 AM

Alright, I take back short and modern. If it will ease your troubled soul, some of the modern ones are long (Paradise by the Dashboard light comes in at about 15mins) whilst some of the shorter ones were written in the 1100's by - or at least attributed to - Abbess Hildegard of Bingen. Can't say I don't cover the whole spectrum!

LTS

Subject: RE: LP copying DON'TS
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:08 PM

Yeah, Miskin, and so does LP Ripper, the program that goes with LP Recorder, but it is tedium territory. You've already sat through the whole LP, and now start listening intently to get the right place to split of join the tracks.... Easier to do it 'on the fly' as they say. I did download Polderbits at one stage, but then went back to what I KNOW works for me, and paid for it, too.
Downloaded several similar shareware and freeware programs for the job, and one, or a combination of them, DID something to WXP that I didn't need.

Just pulling your leg a little, Liz.
Wonder where that term came from? Be a long leg, now you're back in blighty.