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BS: Beware our troops

Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:12 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM
Ebbie 31 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:48 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:52 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM
Rapparee 31 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM
gnu 31 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM
Mrrzy 31 Jan 10 - 02:07 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 01 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM
Amos 01 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM
VirginiaTam 01 Feb 10 - 02:35 PM
bubblyrat 01 Feb 10 - 02:52 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM
Ebbie 01 Feb 10 - 05:41 PM
mousethief 01 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM
olddude 01 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM
Ebbie 01 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM
mousethief 01 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM
olddude 01 Feb 10 - 09:20 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 10 - 10:15 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 10 - 11:03 PM
mousethief 01 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 10 - 11:23 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 10 - 11:36 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM
Jack Campin 02 Feb 10 - 09:50 AM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM
Rapparee 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM
Little Hawk 02 Feb 10 - 12:14 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 10 - 02:59 PM
mg 02 Feb 10 - 03:23 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 04:22 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 04:39 PM
mg 02 Feb 10 - 05:05 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 08:08 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,CrazyEddie 03 Feb 10 - 10:22 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM
mg 03 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM
mousethief 03 Feb 10 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 10 - 03:28 PM
InOBU 03 Feb 10 - 08:32 PM
olddude 03 Feb 10 - 09:04 PM
olddude 03 Feb 10 - 09:30 PM
mousethief 03 Feb 10 - 11:30 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 10 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Feb 10 - 05:04 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM
Ebbie 04 Feb 10 - 12:40 PM
Donuel 04 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,999 04 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM
InOBU 04 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM
Ebbie 04 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,999 04 Feb 10 - 09:28 PM
Ebbie 04 Feb 10 - 09:40 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM
CarolC 05 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM
CarolC 06 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM
CarolC 07 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM
CarolC 07 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM
Ebbie 07 Feb 10 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,999 08 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM
olddude 08 Feb 10 - 09:29 PM
CarolC 08 Feb 10 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,amergin 08 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM
olddude 08 Feb 10 - 11:30 PM
CarolC 09 Feb 10 - 12:45 AM
CarolC 09 Feb 10 - 12:47 AM
olddude 09 Feb 10 - 12:54 AM
CarolC 09 Feb 10 - 01:10 AM
Amergin 09 Feb 10 - 02:18 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM
olddude 09 Feb 10 - 07:10 AM
olddude 09 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,CrazyEddie 09 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM
CarolC 09 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Feb 10 - 02:27 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Feb 10 - 02:37 PM
CarolC 09 Feb 10 - 02:39 PM
CarolC 09 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM
CarolC 09 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 10 - 08:00 AM
CarolC 10 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM

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Subject: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:12 AM

Why was the death penalty execution of a Iraq war veteran fast tracked? WHy so many tens of thousands of our troops commiting suicide. Why have 144 of our troops been arrested for murdering, their loved ones?
Why did the DOD buy up all the testing facilities for Depleted uranium that counted uranium inside people, and then shut them down?
First veterans were called crazy for agent Orange claims, then they were called crazy for Gulf war 1 bizarre health claims now they are crazy again regarding Gulf War 2. Why ? because the DOD does not have to treat crazy false claiments.

Why are so many of our troops commiting so many murders?

A video called Beyond Treason - valuable info for troops

To support our troops we should let them know what is happening to them behind their backs, although many of them know because they saw it with their own eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM

better link

http://www.livevideo.com/video/NewMindZ/BA726BD8A8F34C97B5A294ED0EF2D7DB/beyond-treason-full-lengh-2.aspx

this is part 2


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM

Some people claim that weapon residue is not the cause but rather high doses of Zoloft has caused troops to murder in a drug induced day dream and not know if they had done the crime. Multiple 911 calls all share a similar phrase from veterans "Everyone is dead here except me, could I have done this?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM

"Tens of thousands committing suicide"? Donuel, I don't believe you. Where do you get your information?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:48 AM

There official DOD stats then there are veteran stats then there is the truth. If you are haunted by the question you will do your own research and allow me to be a signpost. One of the better investigative sleuths here is John from Kansas.

To be honest I don't know which stat to believe either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:52 AM

If it is true, the back of mind says 'those that commit suicide may hear the same voices that those who end up murdering loved ones do, but they take their life instead of others. Those that commit suicide in that light are heros. I am sorry for sharing such a bizarre notion, perhaps we can allow adimin to drop this entire thread out of sight. I would not mind. Some things are too contentious to even consider.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3496471.shtml


120 veteran suicides a week rises since 2005
6,200 veteran suicides in 2005 alone

Diane Rehms has done shows on this too.

The Department of Defense reported this month there were 160 reported active-duty Army suicides in 2009, up from 140 in 2008.

"Active duty suicides" Now add those who are not active duty (5 a day)

By the way active duty is the easiest to cover up.


ya know even a 30 second google search is an eye opener. But it only serves to intensify a bad mystery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM

I go to the local VA outpatient clinic every week (at the moment) for reasons that don't concern anyone here.

The first and last questions I am asked are "Have you thought about suicide?" and then I am given a card with the VA suicide prevention talk line number on it. (If you'd like one, I've got plenty to share.)

It's no mystery: when someone is in combat the stress becomes pretty bad, not to say awful. In the past the military has taken a damned dim view of mental health problems, attaching a stigma of weakness to them.

The 'Nam vets were the first to really speak out and say, "HEY! Your so-called treatment STINKS! Our buddies are drinking themselves to death, addicted to dope, and killing themselves and you bastards aren't doing anything to help! Some fine bunch of liars you are!"

And then it was discovered that non-vets were suffering the same sort of thing! Cops were sucking on their pistol barrels. EMTs were hitting the bottle pretty hard. Nurses were misusing drugs.

And thus was discovered Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Why, they found that overtaxing a person's ability to cope with killing, with death, with things like those could actually drive someone to drink, drugs, asocial behavior, anti-social behavior, carrying weapons with them ("I slept for forty years with the a loaded gun and the light on," said Audie Murphy), withdrawal, and even suicide! Golly! Imagine that!

And THEN someone did a followup on the combat vets and you know what? They found it likely that some of the "accidents" they suffered might not have been "accidents" at all! That the inability of vets, especially Vietnam vets, to stop smoking might be PTSD linked!

My response, Donuel, is "So what else is new?" The military is trying to erase the stigma that seeking mental help is not weakness, but a damned good idea. Civilians could well emulate this -- especially the news media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM

I cannot imagine the horror and stress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 02:07 PM

Me neither.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM

Here's the whole video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2205254052040284660&ei=ELtlS7aBKo6-rAKs6d29CA&q=beyond+treason&hl=en#


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

It seems reasonable to assume that many of those who are programmed to kill are capable of indiscriminate taking of others lives or their own.

PTSD has been promoted by the quadruple tours of duty that Bush advocated.

In a way, the Iraq and Afghanistan forays have done more damage to human beings than just killing innocent civilians. They have created military zombies as was the case during the Vietnam War to return home to dysfunctional lives without the support of the administrations that sent them there.

If you really want to support troops, tell them to object in the first place and for those there bring 'em home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM

The training, usually, is not the overwhelming, soul-destroying part. It is the actuality of facing someone you have to kill or by whom be killed. It is the overwhelm of fearing for your very life ALL the time day after day. It is the horror of confronting mass carnage, explosions of body parts, friends' brains on your boots, and the screams of people bleeding to death from a violent collision with steel or lead.

War sucks.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM

Amos is more right than anyone else who has posted here (except me). It's not the whole story, but it's a good part of it.

Do some research, dammit! Go visit the Mental Health Unit of a VA Hospital and talk to the psychiatrists, the social workers, the psychologists. Do some field work instead of getting your "facts" from what others have written.

THEN come around saying "Beware our troops".


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 02:35 PM

Well! This is an eye opener and goes a long way to explaining why my Dad alternated between drunk, angry and depressed most of my childhood. WWII and 2 tours in Korea. The second was when I was 4 or 5 (1962 or 63). He told of some horrors he had seen when we were kids. Mom disapproved, but being kids we just took it a cool gruesome stories.

As for Gulf War 1, I worked for a young man (he was younger than me) who had been medically discharged from Air Force captaincy. He had all kinds of immunological problems as a result of the chemicals he had been exposed to during his tour in the Gulf. Involved in some case with a number of his men who were all experiencing similar problems. He was on chemotherapy and heavy steroids to treat whatever the condition was. I remember he said Air Force would not accept any responsibility for his or his comrades illnesses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: bubblyrat
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 02:52 PM

Same old story,year after year,war after war. My dear grandfather went through untold horrors in WW1,and when he came home,with "shell shock",and having been gassed ,what help & understanding did he get from the British Government ?? Fuck all !!
    My dear Dad flew lots of night missions over Germany in 1944-45, facing searchlights,"flak",and the ever-present threat of Luftwaffe night-fighter "aces" like Major Willhelm Herget,who had already shot down my Dad's regular pilot ,Squadron Leader Van Den Bok,on a previous occasion.The stress of "operational flying" affected my Dad for the rest of his life,and crashing in Calcutta ,with several fatalities,in 1946 ,didn't help either. Again,what help & understanding did he get from the British Government afterwards ??   Yes, Fuck all !!
                  So what's new ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

Look after any war at the veterans. Look at the veterans after the Civil War and the number who "went bad": Frank and Jesse James, Clay Allison, the Daltons and the Youngers, to name but a few. Look at the soldiers turned loose in England and Europe following any of the many wars there.

"...When a big cannonball
Ran away with me leg...
But a surgeon then found me
And he soon staunched me blood
And they gave me an elegant leg made of wood.
They gave me a medal
And tenpence a day,
Contented with Sheila
I live on half pay."

"They collected wounded, the crippled, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla...
...And the band played 'Waltzing Matilda'
As they carried us down the gangway.
But nobody cheered
They just stood there and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away."

"...And if you ever get back home you'll never be the same
The man that was before Vietnam can never be again
And in ten years time when you look back to weigh and count the cost
Perhaps you'll find that Vietnam gave you back more than you lost
For from it, if you gain nothing else
Perhaps you may get to know yourself.

Coda:
Roll up, roll up, and see the show
TV soldiers in a row
Hear them laugh, hear them cry
Watch them run and see them die
It's not in colour but that's alright
War's better viewed in black and white
White for us and black for them
With no grey shadows in between."

But ultimately is comes to this:

"A winter's day
In a deep and dark December;
I am alone,
Gazing from my window to the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Don't talk of love,
But I've heard the words before;
It's sleeping in my memory.
I won't disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

And a rock feels no pain;
And an island never cries."

I know, for those weekly visits to the VA Outpatient Clinic I mentioned earlier are for PTSD treatment. Don't sympathize, don't pity -- believe it or not, it can happen to you, in the military or out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM

War is just a massive crime, a crime committed against the troops and civilians on both sides. It's usually done in a struggle over strategic resources, land, trade, and the balance of power between competing nations or empires. The soldiers and the people pay the price.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:41 PM

Every time and everywhere I speak from my heart and say that the day will come when the very idea of war will be archaic, an anachronism of the distant past, unacceptable to any civilization, I am told that I am naive and invoking Utopia.

And yet. I know that I'm right, that someday conflicts will be resolved by early negotiation and if needed, severe sanctions. War is not only the ultimate and gruesome failure, waging it is naive to the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM

I have read about the positive delight that some people (particularly German generals) had in the thought of coming war at the brink of the Great War (WW1). I just can't be sure we'll ever be rid of this attitude (much as I'd like it to be so).

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM

Rap
Semper fi my friend, Semper fi


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM

Yes, but remember that a few generations ago war was touted as a glorious experience and a good way to help a young man grow up and a way to prove one's patriotism.

Mostly we've gotten beyond that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM

We have, Ebbie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

Seems more like 1984 where some distant "the war" is a way to seep off excess male aggression.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:20 PM

Noone hates war more than me, but freedom is not free, without the military we would all be goose stepping our way across the world ..
Now how the talking heads use our military and what they use to justify action is a fair subject and has been a disgrace i think by our leaders in recent years... but that has nothing to do with the fine young men and women who put on that uniform


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:15 PM

My friend Kevin is a Mennonite. He is a complete pacifist...or was, until he visited Dachau. Until he learned that the French and German Mennonite Churches sent letters of welcome to Hitler (and they are bitterly ashamed of it).

Consider the 12.5 million US troops who served during WW2, the thousands who served in Korea, the 1.25 million who served in Vietnam, the hundreds of thousands who have served in the Middle East and Afghanistan. If they are so suicidal, so crazy, why are we not walking up to our ankles in blood as we step over the dead bodies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:03 PM

Sadly enough, though, the young Germans who fought in WWII were also under the very strong impression that THEY were fighting for freedom. They believed they were fighting to save Germany and all of western Europe from a vicious Communist dictatorship. That is a fact. They believed it.

Young Russians, on the other hand, believed that they were fighting to save Mother Russia from Nazi aggression (as they were, after June 22, '41). Young Italians believed that they were fighting for laudable reasons too. Young Japanese believed that they were fighting because (1) China had supposedly attacked Japan first (not true, but they believed it) and (2) America was helping China and economically strangling Japan (true...after FDR put the oil and steel embargo on Japan in early '41).

They ALL believed they were on the side of right, truth, liberty, and justice...and if any of the losers had won that war their sons and daughters living right now would BELIEVE that the soldiers who died for their country did so to secure their freedom from being trampled on by someone else in jack boots.

So, remember that you are not alone, but you have plenty of company when it comes to imagining that the last few generations of soldiers died to secure your freedom! It's a universal assumption held by the victors of all wars.

The losers don't have that luxury. They have to grow up, drop their grand illusions of moral and cultural supremacy, and face directly the fact that war is a mistake, a huge mistake, a political failure, and a tragedy for all concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM

They have to grow up, drop their grand illusions of moral and cultural supremacy, and face directly the fact that war is a mistake, a huge mistake, a political failure, and a tragedy for all concerned.

Actually it's unclear the Japanese ever did this. They certainly don't teach it to their children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:23 PM

Well....yes and no. I think they very much grew up in the generation immediately after the war...the veterans and their children. They had to work very hard to restore the country, and that matures a people. The military became extremely unpopular in Japan after WWII and the whole country turned its back on militarism in a very decided way. They put their efforts into peacetime industries instead, and it served them very, very well....just as it did the postwar Germans.

Now, however, you have a young and far more affluent generation growing up in a Japan that is so far away from those WWII experiences and so steeped in modern consumerism and hi-tech that the lessons their grandparents learned have failed to register on them.

So I think there was a profound maturing process in Japan after the war...but it only held for about 30 years, maybe. Now it's being rapidly forgotten by the younger people. That would be my guess.

The Japanese, too, have only lost one great war. Europeans have gone through many generations of terrible conflict and those lessons of loss have sunk in better in Europe than I would think they have in Japan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:36 PM

And...just imagine how arrogant and overweening they'd be now if by some miracle they'd WON WWII in the Pacific! ;-)

You'd have to see it to believe it. They'd be running everything over there and driving half the world out of their minds with resentment and frustration...kind of like the USA does, but probably worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM

I could never thank the men and women of great courage and substance that put on the uniform. without them, we would not have the liberty of typing these words right now. Never confuse how the screwed up political leaders abuse the power of the military with those fine people who answer the call. I don't care what nation but I am talking ours right now. When attacked, you can do several things, you can try to run away and hope it stops, you can stand there and let them kill you, or you can stop them ... me I always when with the latter. Trained people to go with the latter ... Me I would give my life for any one of them wearing the uniform for that is what they are doing for me. Now do I agree with these wars hell no, but that is not the job of the soldier, their job is to protect and defend the constitution of the US and follow their orders and they do it willingly ... they die, they suffer , for a cause greater than themselves ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:50 AM

Look after any war at the veterans. Look at the veterans after the Civil War and the number who "went bad": Frank and Jesse James, Clay Allison, the Daltons and the Youngers, to name but a few. Look at the soldiers turned loose in England and Europe following any of the many wars there.

In particular look at Germany after WW1. The anti-communist Freikorps (which later became the SA) was a militia of largely-unemployed veterans. Without those "men of great courage and substance" we would never have had the Nazis. (Klaus Theweleit's "Male Fantasies" is an eye-opener about their mindset).

And where did this "our" troops bullshit come from? The mercenaries Britain and the US has in the Middle East now are not mine in any sense. They're robbing, killing and torturing people I see as my friends, on behalf of monstrous corporations that are the enemies of all humanity, and they're doing it just for a paypacket. If they get a lifetime of nightmares, fuck 'em, they've earned it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM

Yes Jack and I respect your views and your right to say that. And an ocean of blood paid for by those soldiers gave you the right to say that now. Cause if they didn't you wouldn't be able to type that right now because by doing so in countries such as Iran you would be in jail or dead. It was they who gave you the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM

Jack, may you be blessed with a trouble free live and sweet dreams always.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 12:14 PM

Every soldier who goes out to fight believes he is fighting to preserve his own people, his nation, his way of life, his family members, and the rights of his people to live in peace. All of them. It's a universal assumption.

After it's over the winners all get to say that the ocean of blood shed by the dying gave YOU the right to say whatever you're saying now. Another universal assumption, one that may not in fact be true at all much of the time, but it sounds marvelous.

The losers don't enjoy that luxury...but they will enjoy it the next time they go to war and "win". In the meantime, they have to suck up the sorrow and misery and go on. This is one reason I've always been rather moved by the terrible sacrifices that ordinary individuals made in a losing cause. I have some perception of what hell they must have gone through both while it was happening...and after it was over. Be assured, they DID think they were protecting their own way of life and all they held dear, and they did not think of themselves as "evil" in any way.

Who do I think of? All the Native Americans who tried, but failed to hold their lands against White invasion over 500 years of war. All the Germans, Austrians, and others on their side who fell in WWI and WWII, all the Japanese who perished in WWII, the Boers who failed in their fight for independence against the British Empire, the French who were so badly defeated by Prussians in 1870, the Spanish Republicans who lost to Franco, the Confederates who lost the American Civil War.

These were ordinary people trapped in huge events by politics. They were not (with a very few exceptions) evil people. They all lost, so they had to suck it up, rebuild their shattered land and their shattered lives, and listen to decades of propaganda from the winners about how awful they were.

It's disgusting.

Now, yes, sometimes those people served an evil or very wrongful regime. Some of them did. But was that clear to most of the young men who went out to fight for the regime? No, it wasn't. They fought for the same reasons young men everywhere fight...to protect their land, their people, their traditions, their way of life...as best they understood it at the time.

And yet the world treats them like shit for doing so after it's over. That kind of hate propaganda makes me sick. It shames those who propagate it. Maybe their smug self-satisfaction in their own righteousness will come back to bite them in the ass some day.

Given how history works, I think it's inevitable that it will. Just a question of when.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM

Point in fact LH, what was done to the native Americans is one of the great atrocities of mankind ... if they had a military that was dominate their way of life would not have ended as it has ended. so that's my point ... without a dominate military your way of life disappears ... period, it ceases to exist, because this world is an evil place and someone is always waiting to take it from you.

so disband the military and see how long you can post any messages. Because as you pointed out ... you better have a strong one or you lose your way of life, history proves it


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM

Everything we have we owe to someone else putting themselves on the line. without our police, some criminal will take everything you own. without our firemen we die when we are injured or our house burns. Without our men and women in uniform, some foreign government tells us who can live and who shouldn't as with the Nazis ..

Now is there abuse in everything sure is, but the great thing about America I think is we put our sins in the front window for everyone to see as in the case of the prison abuse in Iraq ...

Are that many people serving all perfect, heck no, you have your good and your evil in any organization. But those folk lay in the mud, lay in the sand, climb aboard a ship, fly in a jet and say no one will hurt you, I won't allow it ... I thank God for them


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 02:59 PM

"without them, we would not have the liberty of typing these words right now"
Self-deluding, flag-waving bullshit - virtually all wars since the end of WW2 have been ones of aggression and aquisition on the part of the West. They have been fought for territorial and political influence and the control of oil, and almost exclusively waged against 3rd world countries.
Where we haven't been directly involved we have poured money into some of the most monsterous regimes in history, Bartista, Pinochet, Papa Doc, Ky, Papadopoulous, the Zionists, the Saudis, the Contras.
In fighting these wars the West has indulged in large-scale war crimes (napalm, Agent Orange, phosphorous, land mines, internment without trial...) and has re-ivented the language to attempt to make these crimes acceptible - 'extreme rendition' (torture), 'collateral damage' (massacre of civilians), not forgetting good ol' 'friendly fire' (slaughtering your own side) .... but as OD says, it's acceptible as "we put our sins in the front window for everyone to see" - oh - that's all right then!!! (Sounds to me as if the Yanks consider themselves strong enough not to give two fucks what people think of them"
"Every soldier who goes out to fight believes he is fighting to preserve his own people,"
Equally bollocks - ranking soldiers are there for a whole bunch of reasons, the least of them ideology.
The army is being sold here as a career move - "join up and get a trade".... It was not too long ago that you could go into a pub in Scotland and read on the beer mat "Unemployed - join the army" - they forgot to add "and get sent to Northern Ireland or the Falklands and get blown to pieces".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mg
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 03:23 PM

People are really good at knowing how bad war is but they have no concept at all of a slaughter. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 04:22 PM

Well Jim next some someone decides to attack or even if you are in your home and someone wants to rob you .. pick up your guitar and play them a little ditty by Pete Seeger and then see what your bullshit gets ya ... it gets ya dead ... but you sit in your warm house and do your daily things while others put their life on the line to keep you safe ...and instead of thanking them you shoot off your mouth, every walk the walk JIM, I bet not .. if ya been there you would get it but since you want to let other do the job for you then I guess you would not get it ... enjoy your freedom, cause others paid for it and

have fun ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 04:39 PM

A soldiers job is to take orders and protect and defend the constitution. anyone have a beef with the command and Chief and how he uses those soldiers, fair enough, I have a beef myself and a big one. anyone wanting to make their comments about the soldier who puts on the uniform, well to me , they are spineless cowards who don't deserve the freedom those folks protect .. We are all living warm and fuzzy while they go into harms way willingly


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mg
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 05:05 PM

I think the day will come when a whole lot of people will say Ooops. I think I was wrong. Where are they when we need them. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

OD - "Well Jim next some someone decides to attack or even if you are in your home and someone wants to rob you "
As the most likely nation to be in the position to do this is the US - the possibilities are somewhat slim as we haven't got any oil TBTG
I can't help noticing that you failed to address a single one of my points so I have to believe that you find the US behaviour over the last half century acceptible - hardly surprising from a nation that can produce a Leiutenant Calley and elect a pychopathic moron to the position of most powerful man in the world for two terms.
I really don't want you protection when I don't know who will protect us from our protectors?
Get a grip fellers and take a look at your record!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:08 PM

Your logic hold no weight Jim, Counting the support staff there are a million people in the armed forces, there are bound to be bad ones, An Irish guy sets off a bomb in London killing a dozen civilians outside of parliament, does that make all Irish bombers. No ...

soldier take orders, If you are criticizing the leaders in Washington for unjust action, you have my attention because I am in full agreement with you ... if you are criticizing those in uniform then you are way off base. The reason we have our freedom, is because they choose to leave their quiet lives and go on a ship or a jet or stand in the front line and say "not on my watch, nothing will happen, I won't allow it" that is what those fine people do. And Washington, a disgrace how Bush and many other administrations wasted lives for unjust reasons and yet they did their job and lived up to the oath they took ... so I agree when it comes to Washington but not those in uniform.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:31 PM

As far as other countries go I could care less if they have a military or not. Amazing how the US taxpayer has to fund protection for countries that don't want to pay for their own security. If history tells us anything it tells us that if you cannot defend your way of life you lose it plain and simple. One only has to look how the Germans rolled through Europe 70 years ago. So you don't want or need US military, most of us taxpayers would agree with ya


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:22 AM

What if they held a war, and nobody came?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Old Dude
Once again you have avoideed the point.
Over the last few decades America has proved itself a beligerant bully prepared to use torture, imprisonment without trial, chemical warfare, indescriminate slaughter of civilians, assasination and financial and political blackmail, all to protect your own financial and political interests. You congratualte yourselves by saying you do it publicly.
Nobody has blamed the ordinary soldier for this - it is the fault of the politicians and those like yourself who excuse them and allow them to get away with it.
"how the Germans rolled through Europe"
And if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour you would have stood and let them.
You were dragged kicking and screaming into WW2 - late - and only participated when your own interests were threatened.
As far as 'protection', from the way you have 'protected the world' so far, I think I'd rather take my chances with The Sopranos'.
As much as I hate stereotyping, so far you have come over as yet another loud-mouthed Yank.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM

If they held a war and nobody came the Visigoths would come and kill everyone in sight. They would bayonette babies. They would rape 10 year old girls (no offense to the Visigoths..maybe they didn't do these things). They would throw dead bodies in the wells. They would destroy all livestock or take it. They would blow up any buildings in their way. They would turn people into their slaves.

Any more questions? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:32 PM

Hitler would have loved it in 1939 if nobody threw a war.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

"the Visigoths would come and kill everyone in sight"
I'll bet the Visigoth generals were telling their men exactly the same thing about their enemies, and, judging by some of the correspondence on this thread, they would have been right.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:28 PM

"Between 1947 and the present, Canada has participated in almost 40 UN peacekeeping missions. More than 100,000 soldiers have served as peacekeepers."


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:32 PM

No, Freedom is NOT free, but it sure is not won by soldiers. It is won in spite of state terror. In the US, it was won by folks like Frank Little, who came back from WWI a pacifist. For his service, his speech against the war got him hanged under a railway trestle. It was won by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., writing from a Birmingham jail cell, it was won by Lord Richard Buckley, who gave his life for frees peach in my very home, in New York City, in my theater, where he died for the right to say what is on your mind on a New York Stage. It was won by Tom Fox in Iraq, by Bonheoffer in Germany, by the persistent gentle people who would not be silenced.
All the best
Lorcan


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:04 PM

Jim C

Do you honestly think I give a rats ass what you think ..
history shows what you and yours stood for

piss off


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:30 PM

inobu
good examples of how a person doesn't have to be in uniform to be brave and stand for something other than themselves. you make a very good point. unlike several on this thread who never stood for anything but themselves, let the other guy do it for them. some put their ass on the line for a higher cause some run their mouth at those who walk the walk and don't even live here. but this is a "yank" forum asshole remember that for once


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:30 PM

Who pissed in your Geritol?

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 04:24 AM

"piss off"
I take it the wedding's off then?
"history shows what you and yours stood for"
And history has shown what you and yours stood for - night after night we watched your B52s raining napalm on civilians, and your torturing of prisoners is common knowledge; and you still refuse to comment on your country's war crimes - didn't expect you to really - too busy wrapping yourself in the flag.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 05:04 AM

If my figures are correct, about 52,000 of our men died in Viet-Nam,combat related. 58,000 Nam vets died of suicide, after returning home.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM

While I am no friend of "the ugly American" and neither am I a friend of IRA terrorists, I think we might try to remember that most people here are not those cartoon characters. I forget it sometimes too.

However, since the tricks of the King's shilling are no longer with us, most mercenaries and most members of the regular military and indeed part-time military like the territorial army are there through choice, so there is likely to be an element of self-selection.

Since in some cases I gather the choice of IRA terrorists was either to be kneecapped by the IRA or join, there may be a lesser element of self-selection there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:40 PM

"If my figures are correct, about 52,000 of our men died in Viet-Nam,combat related. 58,000 Nam vets died of suicide, after returning home."GfS

No, your figures are NOT correct. However, I expect it is a typo, although I can't imagine how a person would 'typo' to that extent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM

Ebbie, I sent you some more imagination. I hope you enjoy it.

Rarely does a poll become so one sided that it ends up 99 to 1.
But when you ask people, "Will we ever live in a world with no war?"
almost everyone thinks not. Personally I know of no one who is not proundly touched by war. The degree and intensity of that "touch" goes to the end of the world and back again.

The legacy of war is to throw away young and old soldiers once they are used up. My mother saw it in WW 1 veterans. btw The only living and last American WW1 veteran is now a vibrant 112 years old.
I saw Korean vets and Viet Nam vets chewed up on all sides.

When we started our Iraq and Iran wars in the early 70's I knew that soldiers would not be glorified or supported by the DOD once they got home or once their job was done.

When my sister went in the Army she was hoping to get benefits like dental care but instead she was insidiously murdered by friendly fire by a military experiment with ionizing radiation. When my brother went in the navy he did not expect to end up in a mental institution. As a kid I saw war as an exciting fatal game but sone decided to not study war no more. I was the last survivor from my mother's womb and was reminded to not become cannon fodder more often than any other parental adage like "don't chew with your mouth open". I had seen Nazi films of the naked Jews being herded to their death before I was even 5 years old. Bottom line, no one is untouched by war, even if they never went there themselves.


For somthing so abhorrent as war, why do we not think we can ever be free of it?



As for this thread, I didn't see any intentional button pushing to deliberatly enrage anyone, but feelings and phrases run so deep regarding war, that no one can truely confront the reality disspassionatly.

The only people I know who are totally disspasionate when discussing war, are folks like Henry Kissinger or Pol Pot. And I think there is something seriously wrong with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM

"1. The Vietnam War cost the United States 58,000 lives and 350,000 casualties. It also resulted in between one and two million Vietnamese deaths."


Estimates regarding suicides amongst the vet population range from 50,000 to 150,000.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM

Hi Richard, the evidence we found in researching the Doherty case is that no one ever was coerced to join the IRA. Knee capping was a punishment for petty crimes in Republican controled areas. In point of fact, the IRA paid a reasonalble wage, and so, with high unemployment it was a job sought after by many. However, the IRA never put more than 300 volunteers in the field at one time, so as to manage the force fairly well, so it was a job that was hard to get.
War is never the answer, but after war, a truth and reconciliation process of some kind is needed.
Very best wishes, dear friend
Lorcan


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM

Here is an interesting site:

History.com

"Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.

"Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group." [Houk]"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:28 PM

"120 War Vets Commit Suicide Each Week

The military refuses to come clean, insisting the high rates are due to "personal problems," not experience in combat.

November 26, 2007

Earlier this year, using the clout that only major broadcast networks seem capable of mustering, CBS News contacted the governments of all 50 states requesting their official records of death by suicide going back 12 years. They heard back from 45 of the 50. From the mountains of gathered information, they sifted out the suicides of those Americans who had served in the armed forces. What they discovered is that in 2005 alone -- and remember, this is just in 45 states -- there were at least 6,256 veteran suicides, 120 every week for a year and an average of 17 every day.

The above is from

http://www.alternet.org/world/68713/


Ain't arguin' with you Eb. I thought the numbers seemed high. The ones I quoted earlier are from newspapers (various). The article above of course doesn't refer to Vietnam vets in particular.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:40 PM

Whatever the number, it is inarguably too high. I hark back to my contention that the day will come when war in this world will be unacceptable.

People who reiterate that war with Hitler was inevitable, even necessary, are missing my point that by the time Hitler invaded Poland it was way, way too late.

Negotiation based on the ultimate wellbeing of issue-driven conflicts, stigma earned by those who transgress, and sanctions imposed by a united voice. Something like the situation that Iraq was in prior to the invasion.

And that's all I have to say about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

"Since in some cases I gather the choice of IRA terrorists was either to be kneecapped by the IRA or join,"
Do you have any solid evidence for this Richard? It's always seemed more than a little incongruous to me that a clandestine organisation should fill its ranks with reluctant recruits who are quite likely to do a runner and grass them up at the earliest opportunity.
This was equally the case with organisations like the Nazis; why waste time, energy and manpower forcing people to join their ranks when German people were queuing to become members; very soon the reluctant 'volunteers' would outnumber those who 'forced' them to join - a dodgy position to be in, to say the least. I'm afraid I take stories of people being 'forced' to join such bodies with a large pinch of salt, be they pope or ordinary man-or-woman-in-the-street.
I sometimes think people took our propaganda machine far too seriously.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM

During WWII, what duty did the German soldiers have when they were given orders to do things that were subsequently determined to have been war crimes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM

No answers for that question?


These guys have my deepest respect and gratitude...

http://www.ivaw.org/wintersoldier

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/205390-1


http://www.ivaw.org/

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6CNd2fxNUA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqfznE3BAvw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7RNbYObjwk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW31YlDlNm0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfpDOohpCCA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pqFX_Vx6Rs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkglAYl4KAs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xfsGT66Dbw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqamAzs-NR4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebp2Ks1aL14&feature=related


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM

""Estimates regarding suicides amongst the vet population range from 50,000 to 150,000.""

Is that really the figure for the post Nam period, or, as is more likely, the figure for all US vets post WWII?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

""People who reiterate that war with Hitler was inevitable, even necessary, are missing my point that by the time Hitler invaded Poland it was way, way too late.

Negotiation based on the ultimate wellbeing of issue-driven conflicts, stigma earned by those who transgress, and sanctions imposed by a united voice. Something like the situation that Iraq was in prior to the invasion.

And that's all I have to say about that.
""

Read "Mein Kampf", and you will see that Hitler had already decided his stategy for domination of Europe, and beyond. It is evident both directly, and by inference, that he had no intention of accepting any diplomatic solution.

He clearly foresaw that he would be able, little by little, to annexe territory, and that he could do so safely, as long as he didn't grab anything large enough to make going to war worthwhile for the other side.

He knew, however that war was inevitable, and was only surprised that the trigger was Britain keeping faith with Poland.

WWII was inevitable from the point where the British failed to kill the rotten little bastard in WWI.

Diplomacy only works if both sides are prepared to a) Talk, and b) compromise. Hitler was using it solely as a delaing tactic, until he was ready for war.

And that is precisely why Olddude is right. Soldiers will always be needed as long as there are acquisitive leaders, trying to annexe territory.

And soldiers should not be blamed for what their leaders decide, but only for any crimes they may commit while serving their compatriots.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM

The answer to your question, Carol, is that they should have refused.

Given that a refusal meant a bullet in the head against the back wall of th building, I wonder how many of us would have had the necessary courage.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM

Did they have a duty to refuse?

And what duty do military people have if they are given orders that are illegal under international law and the consequences for refusal don't involve a bullet in the head?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

And that is precisely why Olddude is right. Soldiers will always be needed as long as there are acquisitive leaders, trying to annexe territory.

In the case of the current conflicts, the US is in the position of the power that is trying to annexe territory. Whose soldiers would be in the right if they were to fight against the US doing this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:04 PM

As far as I'm concerned, Don T, your rebuttal hasn't met my criteria. Whether or not I spoke clearly enough, I assume and accept that sanctions will be needed. We don't read much about it, but before the Iraq invasion Iraq was fairly well constrained in its own space, with no-fly zones and monitoring. And yes, I have read Mein Kampf.

If or when an enabling country goes against legal sanctions, that country will find itself hamstrung as well.

Note that I am NOT postulating any such process for any time soon. I am simply saying that it will happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

The UCMJ deals with illegal orders.

See this link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:29 PM

The reason you hear about the abuses in the Military is exactly that, they are abuses, They are illegal and they are punished when exposed. Same as with the police or anyone else in any service profession. By the way soldiers are trained to NOT carry out illegal orders. The old defense that "I was only following orders gets you in prison. Everyone likes to point out, look at the Iraq prison abuse or look at the Vietnam village massacre, also look at the punishment that was handed out. No so in many other countries. We do have rules of engagement and they are specific. Abuse in war will occur, when it is exposed it is dealt with and no one I think does a better job of exposure as our country since there are embedded reporters along in most situations today. Like I said , easy to judge when you are sitting in a cozy house. Not so, when the air to metal ratio is very high and is flying at your head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:35 PM

The winter soldiers are saying it's coming from the top down, olddude.

And if they are duty bound to not carry out illegal orders, then all of those who fought in Iraq were duty bound to refuse to fight there because that invasion and occupation were (are) illegal under international law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM

US Soldier Waterboards Daughter


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:30 PM

Carol they are duty bound to the constitution of the united States and the orders of the commander and Chief. They are bound by the laws of this nation and the constitution not the United Nations or any other foreign government. That is for the politicians to debate not the soldiers. No soldier is murdering anyone, they are engaged in an armed conflict and are trained to stay alive not to debate politics. That is for the politicians. But no soldier is targeting anyone that isn't trying to kill them. There are rules of engagement, murder will get you on death row. There is no soldier I know that would obey an order to shoot an unarmed civilian and they are duty bound to disobey any such order. Civilians do get killed, it happens in war any war, but civilians are not the target. Not by this military. Saddam, and other government well one only has to ask the Kurds. British soldiers are duty bound by their leaders also. Did they debate the legality of invading the Falkland islands? and I am sure civilians died in the conflict also sure they were not targeted. War is a curse to everyone, no one wants it, but it is one of the sure things in life unfortunately


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 12:45 AM

Olddude, according to the US Constitution, the treaties we are a signatory to are the highest law of this land. And the international law that we are subject to is based on treaties and other agreements that we have signed, including the UN Charter. Our invasion and occupation of Iraq was a violation of the UN Charter and other treaties that we are bound by. So invading and occupying Iraq was not only a violation of international law, it was also a violation of the United States Constitution. So if our military people are duty bound to refuse to obey an illegal order, and if their first duty is to the US Constitution, then they were duty bound by international law and the US Constitution to refuse to participate in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 12:47 AM

By the way, olddude, you didn't watch or listen to any of the videos I posted links, to, did you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 12:54 AM

Amergin
and there are some bad people also. I agree with you, and there are some crazies who only get their kicks out of armed conflict ... for the most part, most honorable people ever in one place is those who serve. With the rare exceptions, they understand it and live it most do, and they pay the price for it also. Most police are that way also but you will find the bad also in any group. I wish more understood the concept of honor. It is lacking in most politicians today for most soldiers are too smart to throw away lives for causes that are not wise nor just. My opinion ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:10 AM

The reason I ask if you've watched or listened to the videos I posted links to, olddude, is because they are full of servicemen and women who are saying that killing civilians is not only not discouraged by the commanders, but that in many cases, it is actually encouraged. And it's not just a few bad apples who do it, it is the norm. And not only are those who do it not held accountable and punished, but their commanding officers make it very clear to them that if they do it, they will be protected and what they do will be covered up. And according to them, that is exactly what is done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:18 AM

Olddude, I would never paint all soldiers with the same brush as wankers like this guy, or those involved with any horrific acts such as Abu Ghraib. My brother is currently on his second tour in Iraq, though this time he is stuck in a computer room behind the lines (and we are all happy, except for him) he does suffer from PTSD from his first tour. The things he saw there, will stick with him. People will deal with it in different ways, and unfortunately, even today there is little being done to help our boys and girls who serve.

Just by being who I am, just by being out there, walking around in public, sometimes talking with people at a bar, or on a walk through Portland, I have seen the effects the wars have brought unto our countrymen, the effects of bad policies brought about my money grubbing politicians and their corporate masters. Many are apparent, missing limbs, scars, burns, but most are not. Not until you take a closer look into their eyes, and see the psychological damage that will never truly heal.

A Restored Soldier?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM

Sometimes the suicides start before the wars do.

My friend's young son, around 19 at the time, signed up to the army. Went to do his initial training in Plymouth, where he, and his new friends were all denied outside contact with their families for around 6 weeks. Two of the young lads took their own lives. Luke became so terrified and depressed by the brutal way he was treated that he felt the same way. It was the Chaplain who got him out in time. ALL the families of the lads and lasses who were in that training session were made to sign documents saying they'd not talk about it to the media...

????????

How many other times has that happened?   Terrible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:10 AM

Amergin
my friend, no one can go through battle without losing a part of themselves, that is why war is such a curse and why all leaders have to understand that any decision that leads to war causes much more damage then just the death and destruction. It is a curse to all involved and the suffering and pain goes on for the entire life of a soldier after which cannot be measured, no matter how strong one maybe.   It is an evil and unless all and I mean all means before hand have been exhausted, unless there is a clear and present danger it is an option that should not be used. They are heros to me for their service.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM

In WWII, they George Patton with his push to rush through the battle field driving his soldiers like cattle . They called him old blood and guts. As one soldier said "our blood and his guts". That is why I could not tolerate George Bush in anyway.   He threw away lives on both side for what ... At least the first Gulf war had some justification Saddam was attacking Kuwait and putting Saudi Arabia at risk. Even so I am unsure all other steps were fully exhausted.
The whole world was behind stopping his expansion. The second gulf war was for what reason? None that I can justify ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

"If they held a war and nobody came the Visigoths would come .."

No mg, you have not read my post.

I asked "What If they held a war and NOBODY came?"

No Visigoths, No Romans, No Celts; No Catholics, No Muslims, No Hindus; No Whites, no Blacks, no Browns; No Men, No Women, No Children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

The Nuremburg court seemed to believe that they did have a duty to refuse, Carol, and it is now enshrined in International Law.

In Germany 1933-1945, to obey that law was to commit suicide, and, for many who didn't obey, the outcome was the same.

It's easy for us to debate the academic point at a considerable remove from the realities of the situation, but I have to say that my own inbuilt instinct for survival would tend toward obeying the man with a 9mm Luger in his hand, and worrying about international courts at a later time.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM

So no excuses, then, for those who don't face a bullet to the head for refusing to comply, if they don't refuse to comply with the orders?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:27 PM

""So no excuses, then, for those who don't face a bullet to the head for refusing to comply, if they don't refuse to comply with the orders?""

No excuses indeed, providing that your troops can be convinced that some gung-Ho 2nd Louie won't pull a .45 and air condition their brain box.

That's the hurdle you have to overcome, and I'm not sure that any modern army could inspire that level of confidence among its troops.

It has to be said that the US army has, perhaps, a harder job in doing so than most, given the Ameican love affair with the gun.

They have arguably cornered the market in quick trigger Gung-Ho 2nd Louies.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:37 PM

All of that aside, I agree with Olddude that we owe a debt of gratitude for the defensive operations of our troops, in our behalf, and when they are used aggressively, and offensively, we should remember that they act upon orders, not from choice.

With the exception of a few rotten apples, soldiers are a national asset, and until all nations share a common commitment to peace, a necessary one, unless you are unworried by the prospect of somebody else's army marching up your street and taking charge.

So why don't we all settle for trying to remove the real culprits, the politicos and power seekers who give the orders.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:39 PM

No excuses indeed, providing that your troops can be convinced that some gung-Ho 2nd Louie won't pull a .45 and air condition their brain box.

Are you suggesting that a 2nd Louie in a military base here in the States would pull a .45 on a troop for refusing to be shipped out in the case of an illegal order to invade another country?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

Don T, did you happen to watch and/or listen to any of the videos I posted links to here in this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM

Another thing I note is that we are told that our troops are willing to take a bullet to protect and defend our Constitution. But they're really not if they're not willing to take a bullet to defend the Constitution when it is under assault by our own government. The military people in the videos I posted say that the troops don't really fight and put their lives on the line for their fellow citizens or the citizens of other countries, or for any principles, like Democracy, free speech, or the US Constitution, but rather, they fight and put their lives on the line for their fellow military people. They say that that consideration supersedes all others. Which kind of makes them a nation unto themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:00 AM

" The reason you hear about the abuses in the Military is exactly that, they are abuses, They are illegal and they are punished when exposed."
Not true; the reason they are punished is when WE (the world at large) find out about them. Atrocities by 'our boys' are only dealt with when they are publicly exposed.
This still doesn't answer the continual use of chemical weapons against a civilian population and the illegal detention in inhuman conditions of suspects without them being tried.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3776750618788792499&hl=en#


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