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Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince

ChrisJBrady 01 Feb 10 - 04:09 PM
Artful Codger 01 Feb 10 - 09:41 PM
ChrisJBrady 02 Feb 10 - 09:27 AM
Old Roger 02 Feb 10 - 09:38 AM
ChrisJBrady 02 Feb 10 - 09:48 AM
Leadfingers 02 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM
ChrisJBrady 02 Feb 10 - 05:00 PM
ChrisJBrady 02 Feb 10 - 06:08 PM
Leadfingers 02 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Stuart 02 Feb 10 - 06:32 PM
Artful Codger 02 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM
Leadfingers 02 Feb 10 - 08:38 PM
ChrisJBrady 02 Feb 10 - 08:50 PM
Surreysinger 02 Feb 10 - 08:57 PM
ChrisJBrady 03 Feb 10 - 08:38 PM
Artful Codger 16 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM
ChrisJBrady 17 Apr 10 - 03:10 AM
Ralphie 17 Apr 10 - 04:34 AM
Ralphie 17 Apr 10 - 04:41 AM
Alan Day 17 Apr 10 - 05:13 AM
ChrisJBrady 17 Apr 10 - 12:48 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Apr 10 - 02:14 PM
Alan Day 17 Apr 10 - 05:30 PM
ChrisJBrady 18 Apr 10 - 02:55 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Apr 10 - 11:53 AM
Surreysinger 18 Apr 10 - 05:08 PM
Surreysinger 18 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM
Alan Day 18 Apr 10 - 06:13 PM
Alan Day 18 Apr 10 - 06:15 PM
ChrisJBrady 19 Apr 10 - 08:13 AM
ChrisJBrady 19 Apr 10 - 08:18 AM
G-Force 19 Apr 10 - 10:45 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Apr 10 - 03:16 PM
ChrisJBrady 19 Apr 10 - 04:48 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Apr 10 - 02:59 PM
ChrisJBrady 20 Apr 10 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Ivan Sampson 15 Dec 11 - 12:45 PM
Artful Codger 15 Dec 11 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,CJB 16 Dec 11 - 11:58 AM
Artful Codger 16 Dec 11 - 04:50 PM
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Subject: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:09 PM

We are seeking 78rpm recordings of Olly Oakley (banjo) and Alexander Prince (concertina); in particular the tunes listed below.

These are listed on surviving instruction sheets for Mr. Jollyboy jig dolls from the early 1900s, as recommended recordings to which the said doll will jig.

References:

http://chrisbrady.itgo.com/jigdolls/images/Mr.Jollyboy_Instructions_p1.jpg
http://chrisbrady.itgo.com/jigdolls/images/Mr.Jollyboy_Instructions_p2.jpg

http://chrisbrady.itgo.com/jigdolls/jigdolls.htm

Recordings We Need:
==============

Darktown Dandies - Olly Oakley

Hornpipe Medley - Alexander Prince

Whistling Rufus - Alexander Prince

Fidgety Phil - ????

These we have:
=========

Lumbrin Luke - Olly Oakley (we have this at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_4r0hZUcfM )

Toronto Jig - Olly Oakley (we have this from a torrent download, now at: http://chrisbrady.itgo.com/jigdolls/Toronto_Jig_Olly_Oakley_1910.wma )

Thank you - Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Artful Codger
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:41 PM

There are a few clips of Alexander Prince at the Internet Archive site. They used to have more--guess they had to be pulled due to copyright or something--but none of the items you listed are or were there.

Similarly, they have some recordings of Olly Oakley here, including "Whistling Rufus" and "Toronto Jig". On separate pages, they have "Lumbrin' Luke" and "Colored Major".


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:27 AM

Great stuff - hadn't thought of looking there. Thank you. Downloaded all that we need. Hmm - Alexander Prince is a problem though - can't imagine an issue with copyright - the recording are ove 100 years old!! Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Old Roger
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:38 AM

I have about seven or eight Alexander Prince 78s up in the attic. If'n you get desprit I will get them out and tell you what is there. I also have a postcard photo of Alexander Prince.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:48 AM

Hi 'Old Roger' - it would be wondefrful if you have the tracks we are seeking. There are they:

Hornpipe Medley - Alexander Prince

Whistling Rufus - Alexander Prince

Fidgety Phil - Prince/Oakley

Many thanks.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM

Can one of you more erudite gents confirm any connection with Alexander Prince and the tune 'Woodland Revels'please ?


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 05:00 PM

Probably Woodland Flowers - a great hornpipe for clogging to!!


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 06:08 PM

See:

http://www.raretunes.org/performers/alexander-prince/

scroll to bottom of page.

CJB.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

Thanks CJB , but thats not the tune I am after ! Three parter and the third part screams 'Ragtime' to me ! A music in E minor , then two parts in G Major .


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: GUEST,Stuart
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 06:32 PM

Please acknowledge raretunes.org and send us details of your project if you use our track.

Prince did record Woodland Flowers which was composed by Felix Burns. Both Prince and Burns were Scottish. The tine is known in Ireland as Mrs Somebody's Barndance.

Stuart


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM

I was mistaken: the Internet Archive did not have more recordings in the past; I actually found them at the Cylinder Preservation and Digitization Project site, and they are still there.

Burns' "Woodland Flowers" is an extremely popular piece for concertinists; seems like every old-time concertinist recorded this number. It has three parts, each in a different key (C, G and F, all major), with a return to the first part before and after the other parts.

"Woodland Revels" is a different piece altogether, and you can find ABC listings for it on several tune sites; these can be easily converted to MIDIs.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:38 PM

I 'know' the tune of Woodland Revels . Its the Composer I was looking for !


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:50 PM

"Please acknowledge raretunes.org and send us details of your project if you use our track."

Certainly would acknowledge any use.

Also checked out this amazing site: the Cylinder Preservation and Digitization Project too.

However the specific tracks I am seeking have yet to be found!!

Hornpipe Medley - Alexander Prince

Whistling Rufus - Alexander Prince

Fidgety Phil - Prince/Oakley

Darktown Dandies - Olly Oakley

Cheers - Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:57 PM

I am told that Jim Ward, from Sussex, has a relatively (if not actual) complete collection of Prince's recordings. Regret that I have no contact details for him though.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:38 PM

Thanks for the lead re: Jim Ward. I'll follow it up in a few weeks. A bit otherwise occupied right now. Cheers - Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Fidgety Phil
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM

Pardon if this information is old news to you. I found this catalog entry regarding a "Fidgety Phil":

Fidgety Phil; [by] Karl Kaps, arr. by Shipley Douglas. (Boosey's new supplemental military jour.) obi., 32mo, band pts. [9921
Francis. Day & Hunter. London, England. C 146766, Mar. 28, 1907.

The 9921 number was cited in a Library of Congress copyright listing as well. No idea if it's related to the tune you're seeking. This music may be for an opera (!) which I found mentioned once or twice.

Since the sports figure "Fidgety Phil" was born in 1901, meaning he probably wouldn't have achieved fame before Prince's recording, I assume the tune you seek was inspired or somehow related to the popular children's poem written by Heinrich Hoffmann, "Die Geschichte vom Zappel-Philipp" ("The Story of Fidgety Philip"). It was one of the poems in a short collection titled "Der Struwwelpeter" ("Slovenly/Shock-headed Peter") of cautionary tales he wrote and illustrated for his three-year-old son, and which he published in 1845. You can find the text in English (with a link to the German) at this web page: http://www.fln.vcu.edu/struwwel/philipp_e.html


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 03:10 AM

Thank you - that's great info. There is one recording on the web at: http://www.mgthomas.co.uk/Soundfiles/Ragtime/Ragtime-Soundfiles.htm Its a catchy tune can't think why no-one else has recorded it. Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Ralphie
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 04:34 AM

Hi CJB.
There will shortly be released a Triple CD called Duet International, which I am assured will feature Mr Prince, amongst many other archive recordings alongside current musicians (including me..that's how I know!)
Set for release June/July 2010
Go to Concertina.net and search the forums. Alan Day is the man to contact. (Don't think he frequents Mudcat very often).
I've actually recreated one of Mr Princes tunes using the original surface noise from the original 78 and a Carbon granule microphone for the Duet and the Piano accompaniment!


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Ralphie
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 04:41 AM

Me again
Have just noticed that there is a thread called "Duet International" a bit further down the page that Alan has started...Might be worth checking that out!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 05:13 AM

I can confirm that Alexander Prince recordings will be on Duet International. I spent a number of hours at Jim Ward's the other day listening to all his tracks and selected those which I felt most represented Alexander Prince. I have here 8 tracks of recordings for four to be selected for the project.
Jim is considering bringing out a CD or CDs of his playing, he has a very comprehensive collection.
The recordings I have are uncleaned. a lot of work needs to be done to get these ready for release. I cannot remember as I write this the names of the tracks I have but drop me a line and we can discuss it.
Al


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 12:48 PM

Hi guys. Great news. Do you know how I can contact Jim Ward? Right now it is only Hornpipe Melody and Whistling Rufus and Fidgety Phil that we are looking for. My email address is chrisjbrady AT yahoo DOT com Many thanks.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:14 PM

Chris,
Just had a quick look through the nearest pile of 78s and found the following as well as a whole load of melodeon greats and other concertina players.
Olley
Handy Jack/The Canadian's Parade
The Red Cockade March/The Drum Major
Fernbank quickstep/American Patrol
The Buskers/Ragtime medley
Alexr
Prairie Flower March/Col Bogey M X2
Estudiantina Waltz/The Blue Bells of Scotland
Hornpipe Medley/Silver Heels
Impudence/Poppies
Martial Moments 1&2
Christmas Concertina Selection 1&2
Toreador Waltz/Eldorado waltz
Freedom & Honour March/Garthover? March
Tam O Shanter 2step/Spread Out Lass? 2 Step (Difficult to read)
Lynwood March/Destiny waltz
Ernest Rutterford
Irish Jigs/Scotch Reels and Strathspeys.

Will be in London next weekend for the Marathon. Are you anywhere near Lee where I'll be staying? Hornpipe Medley is defo there. If you're interested I can pull out all the other Wyper Bros stuff etc as well. I am thinking of downsizing my collection (because of the weight and storage space they take up)


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 05:30 PM

Steve ,have you got any Concertina Band or group 78s ?
Another project I am working on.

For Duet we have archives of Alexander Prince, Ernest Rutterford,Herbert Green,Brig Archie Burgess, Perci Honri, Rueben Shaw and the fantastic Derwent Trio, Maurice Harvey and a few others that are being worked on.
I have no problems listing these artists , they are not going to be upset if for any reason they cannot be included.
Al


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:55 AM

Hi - guys. Many thanks agin for responding on all this. The Hornpipe medley is of immediate interest. That's one we are trying to traks down. Do you have the label / record no. / matrix no. for this please? Specifically we are seeking:

Matrix: x49113

Title - Artist: Hornpipe Medley - Alexander Prince

Record no.: 450

Cheers - Chris B.

P.S. I live in London but may be away next weekend. Good luck on the Marathon!!


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 11:53 AM

Chris, yes it's x49113, serial 450. Zonophone Twin, the green label. It says English Concertina, not duet on it. It's not cracked or scratched but would need cleaning up.

BTW I'm not running, just supporting.

Alan, I don't think I have any group concertina 78s but I'll be going through them next week and I'll keep this in mind. I have plenty of Wyper Bros but that's melodeon.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Surreysinger
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 05:08 PM

I have a 78 of Alexander Prince playing which also says English Concertina on it - but discussing it with another, it appears more likely that the intention was to mean that the player was English, and the instrument was a concertina.

Re the Hornpipe Medley, Chris - I found a website two nights ago which has a full complement of various 78's and allows you to purchase a CD of tracks of your choice. Hornpipe medley is one of them. Will see if I can find it again and post the details here.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Surreysinger
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM

And this is the link I was referring to .

Try this


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 06:13 PM

Steve and Surrey Singer it was quite common for English to be put on 78s
as you suggest it did not always refer to the instrument being played.
Al


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 06:15 PM

Sorry Steve forgot to mention thanks for your message, please contact me if you find anything of interest.
Al


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:13 AM

Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Steve Gardham - PM
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 11:53 AM

Chris, yes it's x49113, serial 450. Zonophone Twin, the green label. It says English Concertina, not duet on it. It's not cracked or scratched but would need cleaning up.

==========

Excellent. Thank you for the info. How much do you want for it please?

Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:18 AM

Thank you for that link. Hmm - some great recordimngs there!! Chris B.

Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Surreysinger - PM
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM

And this is the link I was referring to .

Try this


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: G-Force
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 10:45 AM

Duets were obviously thought of as a type of English Concertina. For instance, my 1898 Lachenal is (and I quote) a 'New Model Duet English Concertina'. That's what it says on the label.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:16 PM

Chris,
Are you still interested in the 78 now you have access to a ready cleaned copy?


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:48 PM

Yes please - 'cos we can then clean the record ourselves and upload it to archive.org - if we do this then there's no problems with claimed copyright by the CD guy. Many thanks.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:59 PM

Chris,
Okay the biggest problem is getting it to you safely. I'll pm you with some suggestions.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:14 PM

Very many thanks. I can meet you almost anywhere in Greater London or beyond. No problems. Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: GUEST,Ivan Sampson
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 12:45 PM


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:45 PM

The "English" designation may have been applied to distinguish these smaller types of concertinas from the monster German "Chemnitzer" concertinas and bandoneons. Most old concertina music I've found was arranged and notated for Chemnitzers, with a melody line in standard notation sandwiched between Chemnitzer button notation for the melody and harmony together. The music says simply "for concertina", so the presumption in those days was that "concertina" by default meant a Chemnitzer.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 11:58 AM

Yes - but isn't it sad that there are no old concertinas around any more - of all types? I understand that one fanatic bought up every one he could find, then stored them in an attic in Derby, never to be seen again. They're probably all unplayable by now - and certainly lost to the concertina and folk scenes.

I've seen others languishing in museums, covered in dust, and probably less than air-tight. And even worse I've seen some hung up by one end in antique shop windows, museums and even in theme-pubs.

I have three at home. A George Case - beautifully decorated model. Don't tell the scrap metal dealers but it has brass reeds. It has a gorgeous tone. It came with 15 HUGE volumes of specially written music for English concertina. The volumes will eventually be donated to the British Library - they do not have them.

I also have a Wheatstone standard English, with steel reeds and curved metal ends.

And I have a Wheatstone duet (which may be for sale) - I could never play it. It was ex-Sally Army and tunes to low G (??).

Colin Dipper did a great job restoring these for me.


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Subject: RE: Olly Oakley / Alexander Prince
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:50 PM

Before you donate the volumes to the BL, please scan the music and put it online! Once it's in the BL, it will be virtually unreachable by us mere mortals, especially those of us across the pond.


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