Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM

I'd love to claim it was on purpose, but...

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:27 PM

Genie ... I LOVE IT ... I wondered if anyone was going to catch it!
Art ... I try to avoid it like the plague ... but this year I might be forced to ... I dunno! bob

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:21 PM

Bob, if yer gonna put Art's "musical masterbation" quip on yer geetar case, ya might wanta spell it rite.

Or does "musical masturbation" become "masterbation" when the really good musicians go off (no pun intended) to play by themselves rather than with us mediocre singers? ; )

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM

Feel free, Bob...as long as you take it in the intention meant, as in solitary enjoyment, or maybe the pleasure you get from using your own hand(s).   Are you going to be around Folklife this year? We hope to be up that way.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:58 PM

Perhaps you are fortunate enough to have a strong enough body of singers for that to work

Fortunate? Or could it be a consequence of our policy?

Fortunate, definitely fortunate - unless there is a lot more to your policy than you're letting on. The consequence of "anyone who wants to sing can sing", in my experience, is an awful lot of mediocre singing (and not very many traditional songs, incidentally).

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:32 PM

Jim, in my first post to this thread, I made no reference to you or anything you had said and you launched into the attack. I'll leave others to judge who is doing the stalking.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:19 PM

"MUSICAL MASTERBATION" ... I love it ... can I have your permission to put that on my guitar case? Bob(nice guy)Nelson

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:13 PM

"Jim - as I said - gratuitously offensive."
Glad you think so - now perhaps you will stop stalking me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:47 AM

Jim - as I said - gratuitously offensive.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:43 AM

Howard Jones

Snail, of course you have authority over the people who come through the door of your club.

We like to think we are amongst friends.

Perhaps you choose to avoid that responsibility,

Perhaps we have a different idea of what our responsibilities are.

and simply provide a venue and tell the audience to get on with it.

Not quite what I said. Please re-read my last post.

Perhaps you are fortunate enough to have a strong enough body of singers for that to work

Fortunate? Or could it be a consequence of our policy?

I spent the other evening with a couple of friends, professional musicians with a national, even an international, reputation. Whilst much of their repertoire could be considered "folk", most of their work is now in arts centres and arts festivals rather than in folk clubs. They told me they were embarrassed when people turned up to see them in a folk club and had to sit through poor-quality and amateurish floorspots.

I think any performer who starts complaining about the quality of their audience needs to consider why they are doing it. I have fond memories of an occasion a while ago when a floor singer forgot his words and was prompted from the front row...by Martin Carthy.

This is all too prevalent, does nothing to promote folk music, and risks driving away those people who do want to hear good folk music.

Perhaps you'd like to browse our website Lewes Saturday Folk Club and see whether you think we are doing nothing to promote folk music and driving people away. I think you might find a few familiar names on the list of past workshops. You could ask them what they think.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:19 AM

Particularly with the Net, it is much more possible to find out if there are people you can get to who share your interest in a given type of music.    "Where there's a will...."

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:15 AM

Hi

As this thread rumbles on I am left asking myself a question.

Are we all heading for !folk Karaoke ?????

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM

Ron, I'm afraid that, to me, central PA is still part of the Eastern Corridor. Where I live, Phoenix, Dallas and Denver are each a long day's drive away.

My point really wasn't "use RUS or stay home" - it was more that many places only have one established group and the option of walking out and going elsewhere often doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:58 AM

As Art says, the book (RUS) was intended for group singing,   If you interpret that as meaning that every person in attendance would, with the aid of the book, be able to sing every word of every song sung, then it is clear that the authors did in fact intend it as a "folkie hymnal".

And if that sort of experience is what you are looking for, the book would be excellent for that.

Therefore it would be great for kids' camps, and possibly for retirement homes (though the print is small).

However, folkies, by definition are interested in more than just "group singing".   We don't just want to sing a bunch of familiar songs--with the extremely controversial idea of whatever lots of people sing is by definition "folk" (mainly we don't accept that assertion)--or what is in a given book.

We want to go deeper into the music--and in fact make some of it our own--which can only be done by memorizing it.

I also would take issue with the idea that in most of the US, due to distance, you only have two choices--RUS or solo music.   

I go to an annual gathering in the mountains of Pennsylvania (the part which is sometimes called Alabama--as in the saying "Pennsylvania is Pittsburgh on one side and Philadelphia on the other, with Alabama in the middle".)   I was asked years ago to do so, and it's a fun group and a great location.   My primary function is to lead the sea songs--from the middle of the pond, while swimming.   There are remarkably few books in the middle of the pond. And lots of sea songs have plenty for the group to do, while not requiring them to sing every word of every verse. Also the informal sing which takes place after about midnight Saturday night--with no books at all---involves some excellent musicians--vocal and instrumental.)

This gathering uses RUS as its foundation, even though many have been singing the same songs from it for so many years that if they would trust themselves to put the book away, institutional memory would carry them.   When we do get out of the book, the singing is at least as strong as with it.

And people at this gathering do in fact have other musical outlets than RUS sings. Particularly the bluegrass and country traditions are strong.

I suspect that in much of the US there are in fact other options to make music together than RUS.   It depends on how much of a priority it is for a given person. "Where there's a will..."

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:29 AM

I think, Janie, that your duet partner on "No Church" was Dani.   As I said, it was glorious.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,LTS on the sofa
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:35 AM

No real comment, just bookmarking... although I must confess, I am so used to singing with my book, that when I do the two or three songs I can remember without the words, I turn to a blank page so I don't get distracted when I look down out of habit!

LTS

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:37 AM

Soldier Boy, RUS is a collection of songs that is, as it states on the cover, intended to be "a group singing songbook". It contains a wide variety of material, including a lot of folk of many genres; everything from trad stuff like "The Broom of the Cowdenknowes" to more contemporary material like "The F-word Song". It has holiday songs, patriotic songs, some religious material, Broadway musical tunes and a limited amount of material in other languages than English. It is used (overused, IMHO) by people who are singing together for personal pleasure - I've never seen it relied upon by someone in a solo presentation, but I suppose that's possible. It's been around for a little over 20 years (original publication date was 1988). There are certainly some groups - or individuals - who use this as their only resource, which is regrettable if only because they are missing out on the vast majority of vocal music, folk or otherwise.

If a professional or semi-professional folk singer (whatever folk is, and we've pretty much agreed that is a question that shall never be answered) gets into a group whose interest is group singing, than he or she will likely be confused and irritated by the presence of, and reliance upon, this book. I guess that person has only two choices at that point: try to introduce other material (and sources) and singing style (i.e., singing from memory) or move on and try to find a group that is more suited to his or her needs. Unfortunately, the US is a big place and, outside of the East and West Coast corridors, it can be hundreds of miles from one group to another. Then there is a different two choices - get along or musical masterbation.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:29 AM

mg: People who like the books and taking turns (they seem to be positively associated)

I know I've said this before, but that's not been my experience At All. I love the turn-taking format, because what I do as a singer is the absolute reverse of what I'm like socially. I never impose myself on people - until I start singing, that is! On the other hand, I've seen quite a few arrogant circle-hogging twits regale us with song after song after song, every one of them read off sheets of paper. This used to infuriate me, but I've gone through annoyance into bafflement - "You think what we've all been waiting for is another rendition of The Black Velvet Band? And you haven't even learnt it?"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:58 PM

I've said more than once that my only strong objection is to RUS.   No other book is remotely as pernicious--for reasons I've stated.

And I do love harmonies--and love just being part of the harmonic texture. And I do love to encourage others to do the same. By the way, Janie, your duet of "No Church Tonight" was definitely one of the highlights of that Getaway.

This is admittedly an amazingly picayune point--but I still say that the leaders of the doo-wop sing did not in fact sing out of a book at all when they led a song.   I bet a nickel that Flawn did not and I believe Ken did not either.   They did bring books, but as a service to others--and it was some others who did lead from a book.

What can I say?--I have a visceral reaction to RUS in a singaround--partly since I have seen how it brings the level of singing down sharply.

Soldier Boy-

I don't think anybody objects to Rise Up Singing as a book--why should they?   It has lots of good songs and is fine as a resource--one among many, as I indicated earlier.

But it's the abuse of it--as the "folkie hymnal" the authors never intended--which is the issue here, and the cause of the strong feelings against it by some of us. Using "RUS" is the opposite of making a song your own--it allows you to never have to learn a song.. You in the UK are lucky not to have to deal with the problem.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:30 PM

Janie, I have no doubt that if you could have the chance to participate in a song circle with Deckman and Don Firth, they would appreciate your contributions and vice-versa.

I really do understand, I think, where some folks are coming from in their aversion to books. There's a song circle I go to sometimes where everyone sings from a big-print song book and everyone is to stick to that arrangement (whether the lyrics & chords are right or not) or provide lyrics and chords if they use a song that's not in the book. People get so hooked on using the books that I literally see people's heads buried in the book while they sing the refrain "What shall we do with a drunken sailor?"   And more often than not, many people jump in too soon on various lines of the song - ahead of whoever is leading it - partly because they are staring at the book and not watching or really listening to the leader.
Lyric/chord sheets can facilitate group participation, even make it possible where it otherwise wouldn't happen. But they can be a real detriment if people rely on them too much, as a substitute for listening and learning, rather than as an aid to those processes.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:19 PM

It seems to me, reading many of the threads here, that there is some sort of big cultural divide or different approach, understanding and mentality between the folk scene in the U.S and the U.K!

If this is so it could explain much about the different and obviously diverse conceptions and attitudes expressed here.

OK, I know I could be tossing a hot potato here, but I don't care, because I am hungry to learn, even if it makes me appear like a naive and ignorant bupmkin or I've had a 'brain fart'.

This topic could have been covered a thousand times over but I have not come across it very much at all in ten years posting on Mudcat.

So I know that I could be accused of diverging or drifting off from the original subject of this thread, or being blind to many previous threads but I also sort of have an instinct or gut feeling that this could be a root cause for many of the many heart-felt ,very well considered and presented; but still conflicting opinions expressed here.

For a start I am intrigued and fascinated by the use in the U.S (mentioned many times on this thread already) of the 'hymnal' book 'Rise Up Singing' (RUS).
It would seem from comments here that it's use is dwindling in the U.S but that it is still considered to be some sort of 'Bible' of collected folk songs by many people.
So how does that work?

I repeat again that I am not wishing to be contentious or contraversial but I am genuinely interested in the very well stated and obvious traditions in the U.S and what we in the U.K should be aware of and understand about your own cultural and unique traditions so that we both understand you better and appreciate your uptake on us when you visit the folk scene in the U.K.

So what does the RUS mean to you and how could we in the U.K undertand it better?

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:19 PM

Ron, I think Flawn and Ken brought the books mainly to help jog our memories of doo wop songs. Most people didn't need to be reminded of more than just the songs (titles) themselves, but a few times the lead singers did use the books as prompts.
My point is that books were inevidence and used by some but everyone, including you, seemed to have a great time and we got some good sounds going.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:08 PM

Even so, Ron, I want to note the times you have joined in on a harmony with me on a song that most people did not know, or found a viola part that greatly contributed to a song I was singing. I don't know that any of those times were times when I had lyric sheet in front of me, but I don't think you would have chosen to not do so just because I had a prompt or lyric sheet in front of me.

I point this out, not to attempt to dilute your position, but to point out the clarity with which you express it as your preference, as opposed to asserting those who may rely on prompt or lyric sheets have no business singing around other people. You have your preferences, but you are more tolerant, even supportive of us lesser musicians, than your posts may be interpreted by folks like me who do not have first-hand knowledge of both your musicianship and your encouraging and empowering attitude in 3-D.

Bob Deckman and Don Firth. I have been reading your posts on any number of topics and threads over the past 8 years or so, including your posts on this and similar topics. I can't pretend to know you outside of the context of Mudcat. If I were to go strictly by what you have posted to this thread and the one or two previous and lengthy threads on the same or similar topics, I would be convinced that if I ever make it to the Northwest I should not contact you if I am interested in an opportunity to participate in sharing and making some music while there. Based on what I surmise about both of you from reading more than just this thread and the RUS thread, however, I think you might value and appreciate my participation in a song circle, even if I did have to pull out a lyrics sheet from a notebook. I might not need to do so, but there is no telling in advance. You would not appreciate my participation because of my musicianship. I'm not a musician. I'm not a performer. I might need to pull out a sheet of paper with the lyrics on it to make sure I don't completely flub a song. I'm not even primarily a lover of whatever or however one wants to define "folk." But whatever I sing is about who I am, where I come from, what I believe, and/or my empathy and understanding of the folks and conditions about which a song refers. When I sing, it is from the heart, whether the lyrics are needed for me to get through the song or not. I have reason to think Bob Deckman and Don Firth have the capacity to appreciate and value that.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:02 PM

That is. Genie, I believe you are incorrect in stating that either Flawn or his co-leader used a book while leading.   Neither one would need to--and both realize the huge downside of doing so as a leader.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 08:58 PM

True, Genie, I love doo-wop--as well as sea songs, Carter Family, gospel, western swing, Sephardic, Klezmir, drinking songs, and a whole host of other categories.   You may have noticed that when I led songs at the Getaway doo-wop workshop in question--Goodnight, Sweetheart, Mr. Blue, etc.-- I did not look at any book or paper while singing.

My rule is that you can look at whatever you want before you lead a song, but when you sing, you should not use either a book or paper.   If I hold a paper and am forced to look at it while singing, I consider that I have failed myself and the listeners. But I am not about to try to impose my requirements on myself on others in a workshop I am not leading. I would have preferred that no books or papers had been used--as you might realize my saying so in somebody else's workshop would be crass in the extreme--as well as guaranteed to be ignored.

I was in fact disappointed that books were used from time to time (not much, thank goodness)--but that does not change the fact that great doo-wop songs are still great--and I still love them. I am convinced that we could have put together the same songs--and more--had there been no books at all brought.   But when you want the group to contribute songs, you have to be realistic--or set out exact guidelines at the start. And you notice that the two leaders of the workshop did not use any books or paper.

If I had been leading the workshop I would have indeed said at the start that when people sing, it would be good if they did not look at a book.   What they did before they sang was fine.

Since part of the charm of doo-wop in my opinion is that we're all trying to remember how the song--or the harmony-- went.   And that's one situation when music by committee can actually work.   Using a book while singing destroys the group-institutional -memory challenge.

Lastly, none of the books in question was Rise Up Singing, as I recall.   That is the only book I feel has actually ruined many a sing--for reasons I've cited. As I've stated more than once, I would not try to ban any other book or aid to a singer.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 08:51 PM

I suspect that if everyone who has participated in this thread were actually to spend a weekend together at a venue that brought all of us together at times, and offered spaces at other times for numerous different song circles and sing-arounds, that at the end of the weekend we would all be glad we met and came together, would appreciate what each of us offered with regard to our participation, and in conversations after the experience, would be saying, "I see where you are coming from."

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 08:47 PM

I agree with Joe, partly. I think one should know the material intimately and well. On occasion that's not possible. On those occasions, use the book or the song typed out so's you CAN do the song.

However, the acrimonious stuff on this thread is just that. The advice is pretty good, but the manner in which it's give will ensure it's not taken--by anyone.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

Bryan - as I said - dumbing down.
Unless you have basic standards regarding the abilities of singers you are selling out both the singers and the audiences who take the trouble to turn up.
You don't have inexperienced singers turning up at your club - lucky old you; other clubs do and you are advocating no standards and dumbing down on their behalf - well done.
"We have no authority over the people who choose to pay on the door"
You do have the responsibility to provide them with an evening that is not going to fall below a certain standard - opting out of that one too. Howard said what needs to be said.
"We are part of the audience"
Nonsense; you are promoters and organisers of the music that is performed at your club; "Nowt to do wiv me guv", renaging on that responsibility doesn't hack it.
"as I believe that the ability to hold a tune, and remember and understand a text is a must." - "Hmmmm. Well. A whole new topic"
WHAT???? This is what it has been about from the beginning of our argument; I have repeated this suggestion at least a dozen times during the course of it.
How is believing you are 'worth it' the same as being 'worth it'?
"The ability to "perform" is probably more important."
Gibberish - doing handstands, the three card trick, what performance.... - you are a music club; singers and musicians of an acceptible standard (holding a tune and remembering the words are a minimum requirement) is what you are committed to present. Performance is part of it, sure, but the basic requirement should be the ability to sing or play an instrument to an acceptible level.
Please don't quote MacColl out of context out at me - his statement was based entirely on putting in the work beforehand in order that the singer and the audience can enjoy the songs, not just turning up without having tackled the basics - you are well aware of this.
You now appear to be accepting that you said that the basic standard was the desire to sing - on the ballad thread you denied having done so - it is you who should make up your mind.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM

Like I said before if that's the best you can do then use a book but if you want to do it better THEN LEARN THE BLOODY SONG
Joe Nicholson

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

Interesting suggestion, that last one, Mary. But when a song circle starts at midnight in one of the cabins at a getaway - and will last till everyone's gone to bed, how do you know when the first half starts and the second half begins?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

MaryG, I have no real disagreement with people setting up the kinds of informal song circles you describe -- except that the more rules (spoken or otherwise) you set up, the smaller the group tends to be, and most music camps don't have dozens of spaces that can accommodate song circles. So if a spontaneous song circle moves to one of the 6 cabins available and decides that they won't tolerate anyone using a book or song sheet and won't take turns or otherwise seek to accommodate the shyer persons' contributions and, oh, by the way, we're into sea chanteys, so no blues allowed, etc., there often are no other places for the other 50 people who want to jam & sing to do that.

The huge circle with lots of people getting out the books and wanting the fluorescents on so they can read the mice type and everyone taking turns so if you come in late and happen to sit to the right of the last person who sang you won't get to lead a song for at least an hour -- those aren't much fun and usually don't generate much really nice music.   But sometimes, given the space limitations of the camp, we need to find a middle ground, where some people do use song sheets and the room is brighter than candlelight and there's some sort of "turn" format that keeps two or three people from alternating the lead with just each other.

I find that most of the jams and song circles in the cabins at Singtime are like that. Not a lot of use of books or sheet music but few seem to mind if someone does. Where the turns generally go around in a circle but many people pass and/or perhaps ask if they can do a "piggyback" song out of sequence.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:37 PM

Don, I think you summed it up pretty well:
There are times and places where it doesn't matter if you miss a line or two and maybe improvise to cover it up. There are times and places where it doesn't really matter that much if there's a LOT of lyric screws ups or improvs. And there are times and places where it's really important not to have that sort of thing happen.

(In addition to your international prime-time telecast and the pricey recording studio, I could add a few more situations where it's nice to make sure that you and a bunch of other people will all be singing the same lyrics, but the point is the same.)

If you are in any sense "performing," it's pretty important to know your material and not have to rely on reading the lyrics as you sing.   
(As mentioned before, church congregations have been singing from hymnals for centuries, and they sometimes do, indeed, make a joyous noise.)

Has anyone here really suggested that performers shouldn't know their material- well?

The situations you describe where many people sang together over and over with no books, notes, etc., are indeed fun and may even produce some fine new developments via the folk process when - inevitably - someone forgets a line or verse or hears a mondegreen.   But had they been recorded live, the mistakes might have stood out like sore thumbs upon playing and replaying the recording.

What I find it hard to empathize with are the absolute denouncements of any sort of use of printed material whatsoever during a performance. "I-will-not-stay-to-listen-to-anyone-who-has-a-music-stand-or-cue-card."
There is no place for absolutes in folk music! Period! And that's final!
*g*

BTW, Ron Davies, you seemed to have a grand ol' time at the 2008 Getaway Doo-Wop workshop where both the leaders and various "lead singers" such as Jacqui were from time to time using the song books that Ken Schatz and Flawn Williams had brought with them.

Doo Wop workshop Part 1, FSGW Getaway 2008

Doo Wop workshop part 2, FSGW Getaway 2008

Oh, and I seem to recall a certain Mudcatter (who prefers I not mention her name) having everyone rolling on the floor of the Peace Cabin with a song about some guy named "Bob."
(I would share the video with y'all to prove it, but she'd have to kill me.) She had the lyric sheet in hand the whole time and glanced at it a few times between verses.

Don, I think you'd be surprised how relatively infrequent it is at the Seattle Song Circles for everyone to sing from RUS or any other song book.   Depending on who shows up, sometimes hardly anyone uses them.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:23 PM

As far as song circles go...I suggest making the first half with books and the second half without and also without taking turns. People who like the books and taking turns (they seem to be positively associated) can go early and the others can finish up. If they like each others' music they can stay for both halves. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:20 PM

The situations that I refer to at the music camps are when a person has to leave a song circle where they can take turns and sing from the book and sit under flourescent blazing lights. They leave that group, which is the main lodge with a nice fireplace, which purpotedly is exactly what they want and then they find a group that has left to pursue another form of music, because they by and large hate the books and hate taking turns, and then they IMPOSE their will on the group that has (hopefully) told them in advance what their purpose was in going to anothre building. If they want to take turns with the books, there is a whole building set aside for them. Now, of course the elephant in the room is that the music most likely sounds better in the room with no books and no turns. So? If you like the better music, join in on their terms. Sit on your books. Let the alphas be alphas. If you want to take turns and support each other and read from the books, nobody minds if you do it in the default situation. Just don't come to where people are trying specifically to escape that and then impose it. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:06 PM

As I said a few years ago, Marianne Faithfull's a much better singer since she lost her voice.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:03 PM

"I've known some terrible singers who could hold an audience in the palm of their hand and some perfect singers who bored their audience rigid. The ability to "perform" is probably more important."

And, imo, the ability to communicate even more important than that. I have known some great singers/guitarists/performers/communicators. When people take to the stage, they tend, through a Darwinian process, to find what works and what doesn't. I think that people who "just show up" with an instrument in hand who have never supported that club before are kinda asking for lots.

Open mikes are what I see as 'training grounds' for young performers. A place to develop some stage skills and to interact with folks who have more experience. Others may perceive that stuff differently as is their right. I ain't lookin' for arguments with anyone because mostly I have a two-word response, no offence intended.

I have worked audiences from one to 30,000. Some with greater success than others. Such is life in the music business.

Best wishes to all of you writers, singers, performers, story tellers, etc. Until people have been there, they usually don't know what you go through. Bless y'all.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 06:46 PM

Snail, of course you have authority over the people who come through the door of your club. The club is running the evening, and is perfectly entitled to decide who should and should not be invited to sing.

Perhaps you choose to avoid that responsibility, and simply provide a venue and tell the audience to get on with it. Perhaps you are fortunate enough to have a strong enough body of singers for that to work - from your comments on this and other threads that seems to be the case. Many clubs are not so fortunate.

I spent the other evening with a couple of friends, professional musicians with a national, even an international, reputation. Whilst much of their repertoire could be considered "folk", most of their work is now in arts centres and arts festivals rather than in folk clubs. They told me they were embarrassed when people turned up to see them in a folk club and had to sit through poor-quality and amateurish floorspots. This is all too prevalent, does nothing to promote folk music, and risks driving away those people who do want to hear good folk music.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 06:32 PM

Genie, I beg your pardon- that's the trouble with internet aliases, you don't know who your talking to. And I apologise if I misquoted you, I wasn't able to check your original post.

However I feel there is a world of difference between providing words to help others participate, and relying on them yourself. I also think there's a difference between a professional using them in specific circumstances, where they judge it necessary, and an inexperienced singer using a songbook as a crutch.

I also think comparisons with orchestras and choirs are misleading. They are usually performing far more complex music. Classical musicians are trained to be able to play what is put in front of them - they are not required or expected to play from memory (apart from a few soloists). The dynamics of a large group of musicians or singers performing in a concert hall are also very different from most folk performances, usually soloists or small groups in more intimate venues.

With folk music, as with most popular music genres, the culture has always been to sing from memory. In recent years, this seems to have broken down. It seems to have been tolerated at first to assist a few inexperienced singers get over their jitters, and others seized their opportunity. The idea has also grown up that the most important thing is for people to sing, whether or not they have any aptitude for it or are prepared to put in the work to learn to do it properly.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM

Jim Carroll

Bryan
Your argument, in the context of a discussion on basic standards, was that the only requirement for giving a singer a floor spot was a desire on their part to want to sing, nothing more.

Correct.

You even consulted your committee to confirm that this was club policy.

Correct.

As far Is I am aware, you have never moved from this statement

Correct.

- as far as I am concerned, this is 'dumbing down',

Sorry Jim but that's your problem. If you are implying that we have a deliberate policy of 'dumbing down' then I find that gratuitously offensive. You have never been to our club. You have not seen the results. You have no evidence that our policy causes a lowering of standards. We care deeply about the music we love and put a considerable amount of work into promoting it. We try to create a positive and supportive environment in which people can learn and share. That is why your constant negativity seriously pisses me off.

as I believe that the ability to hold a tune, and remember and understand a text is a must.

Hmmmm. Well. A whole new topic. I've known some terrible singers who could hold an audience in the palm of their hand and some perfect singers who bored their audience rigid. The ability to "perform" is probably more important.

If your stance on this has altered in any way, [No, Not in the slightest.] there is no argument. {Oh yes there is.]

Of course you give all singers who wish to a chance to sing, as I've said on several occasions, [so have I] but should they prove themselves unable to do either or both of the above, you offer them assistance rather than allowing them to continue to practice in public.

I'm sorry Jim but you just aren't getting it. We aren't gurus. We have no authority over the people who choose to pay on the door and come in to our club. We cannot "allow" or "dis-allow" anything (excluding anything obviously illegal). We are part of the audience. We just happen to be that part who have volunteered to book the room, set out the chairs, contact the guest performers, buy the raffle prizes, build the website, sell the tickets, keep the accounts..... We have no right to tell the other members of the audience what they can or cannot do, nor do we have the expertise to tell them how they should do it. All we can do is lead by example and hope that what we do and how we do it conveys the message.

I know that Lewes has an enviable programme of workshops, but you have never said how you cater for beginners.

Frankly, we don't because there isn't sufficient demand to justify organising anything specific.

I just don't understand why you seem to think that wanting to sing equates to not beinga able to sing in face of the fact that your mentor Ewan MacColl said "Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening." and you, in another thread, said "Why do people want to sing in a folk club? - because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are."

Make up your mind.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

Just as a follow-up: I have seen (live) Pete Seeger, Theodore Bikel, and others blow a song and either cover it very quickly so that most people didn't notice, or, if really obvious, just shrug it off, usually with a chuckle, and keep right on going. Audiences are very forgiving and quickly forget it (as long as the performer doesn't make a big deal out of it!).

On one occasion, Segovia blew a piece really badly and covered it so well that the audience wasn't even aware. Bob Flanary (my classic guitar teacher at the time) and I did notice it, undoubtedly because we both played the piece ourselves.

Dealing well with boo-boos when and if they happen is part of a musical performer's art.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:28 PM

Warning! Long screed!

One person's viewpoint. Your mileage may vary.

The first live concert of folk music I attended was in 1952. It was sung by Walt Robertson. He had a local television show and had just released a record on Folkways. The concert was in a basement restaurant ironically called "The Chalet," a half-block from the University of Washington campus, and it was quite probably Seattle's first coffeehouse, except that we hadn't yet actually heard of such things as "coffeehouses" yet (other than the places in London where Boswell and Johnson hung out, or the ones in Boston and Philadelphia where Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine talked of the Rights of Man and plotted rebellion against King George III).

Walt sang for nearly three hours. A wide range of songs, all accompanied on the biggest guitar I had ever seen (it was a 12-string), from American railroad songs, to Scottish border ballads, to children's songs, love songs, tragic, comic, and bawdy, to sea chanteys, and back around again. From a somewhat shortened version of "Greensleeves" (three verses), with the 12-string sounding a bit like a harpsichord, on up through history to a couple of songs written by Merle Travis. You get the idea.

All from memory. Nary a song book, song sheet, or crib note in sight.

A month or so later, they held a "hootenanny" at the same restaurant. At the time, a "hootenanny" was not a multi-performer concert as it became later, but a free-for-all. Anyone could sing if they wished, in any order (no circle or drawing numbers). If you had a song in mind and there was a pause, just start singing. Or just sit and listen if you wished.

No song books or song sheets.

From that time, on into the late Seventies, if I didn't have a gig somewhere, I've attended maybe thousands of "hoots," generally in peoples' private homes.

No song books or song sheets.

It was always assumed that one learn—memorize—a song before fielding it before other people. If you blew it, no problem. You had a sympathetic audience (everyone else had been there). You'll probably get it letter-perfect next time. Just keep working on it.

Then, in the late 1970s, a couple of brothers (not new to "hoots" and who should have known better) brought a copy of "The Folksinger's Word Book" to a hoot, and sat there singing together out of the book, often not being real sure of the tune and screwing up the words even though they had them right before them. There was a lot of sighing and eye-rolling, not just from the singers, but from the non-singing listeners as well, until finally someone else jumped in, to everyone's relief.

The Seattle Song Circle started in summer of 1977. We sat in a literal circle, went around the circle and when a person's turn came up, they had the options of singing solo, leading the group in a song, requesting a song from someone else, or passing. We sang all kinds of songs, but a lot of sea chanteys because they are easy for a group to pick up, they sounded good even if, unlike a trained chorus, they were a bit ragged, and we could work up a lot of gusto with them. The group stated sounding pretty darn good. And we got invited to perform at the Moss Bay Sail and Chantey festival on the east side of Lake Washington where the schooner Wawona was moored at the time (at a sort of maritime museum). We sang up a storm during the sail-raising (the Coast Guard wanted to check the tackle from time to time and make sure it still worked). I got a chance to sing a bunch of fo'c'sle chanteys in a real, genuine fo'c'sle! And we did a big concert that night!

Nary a book or song sheet in sight.

It wasn't until the mid-1980s that newcomers started showing up from time to time with an armload of song books. And boring the crap out of the "old-timers" at Song Circle by saying, "I just found this song this afternoon, and I'm not too sure of the tune and I don't know the words yet, but—" And the stumbling and dithering their way through the thing (many sighs and much eye rolling).

When this got to be the rule rather than the exception, my wife, Barbara, and I stopped coming to Song Circle. We haven't been for years now.

Last I heard, you had to have a copy of "Rise Up Singing" as a sort of membership card. I have a copy of it, but it sits on my bookshelf, along with other songbooks that I check from time to time if my memory needs refreshing.   Then I put it back on the bookshelf.

I have seen concerts on television of singers such as Luciano Pavarotti, whose head was stuffed with the full scores of several dozen complete opera roles, along with a whole batch of other art songs and Italian popular songs. A few times (such as during the "Three Tenors" telecasts), there were music stands in front of all three singers (Pavarotti, Placido Domingo, and José Carreras). But during the entire concert, I didn't notice them being briefly glanced at more that a couple of times. I can understand why having the music within quick eye-shot for a national or world-wide telecast might be a desirable "safety net," but obviously these three gentlemen knew the material.

I can also see having a song sheet in front of you for a recording session. Because if you have a momentary memory lapse (which can happen to anyone, no matter how seasoned and professional, even on songs that one has sung hundreds of times), that means a re-take, and unless one is recording in one's own home studio, that can get a bit pricey. I'm planning to start recording soon (home studio), and contrary to my life-long practice, I will have song sheets within eye-shot (taped to the mic?) just in case. They will be songs I've sung hundreds of times. The song sheets will be there merely as a safety net on the off-chance that I find myself on the verge of screwing up an otherwise good take.

But when I give a concert or go for a song fest in someone's living room, I have the songs I plan to sing in my head.

I have always been performance oriented. When I first saw and heard Walt Robertson hold about a hundred people enthralled for nearly three hours that evening, I kept thinking, "I want to do that!"

But, as I said above, your mileage may vary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:06 PM

Howard: [[Genie said in a post yesterday that he would rather hear a good singer using a book than a mediocre singer without one who forgot the words. ]]
First, I'm a "she."
But did I really say that? If I did It was a slip of the fingers.
I would rather hear a good singer singing from a book or song sheet than a mediocre one (and I'm not necessarily referring to vocal quality) delivering a song totally from memory.

I'd add that if the song is good, I'd rather hear someone sing the lyrics correctly with the aid of a song sheet than hear some of the best verses made up or mediocre lyric lines improvised because the singer, who really did know the song, had momentary memory lapses.

I think the issue of whether you should prepare, rehearse, and memorize your songs is one issue. (Except for very informal song swaps, that's pretty much a given.)   Whether you should ever have sheet music or cue cards, etc., as a PRN memory aid during a performance is a different issue.   

Lest my earlier posts may have suggested I usually perform using books or lyric sheets, I don't -- though I sometimes hand them out at song circles and workshops, especially when I want others to sing along.   (And I do think there are many songs that are far, far better with harmony all the way through and may not even have a chorus.)
The point is that between my professional music gigs and my participation in unpaid jams and song circles, there are well over 1,000 songs that I know by heart (many more, if you include songs that I don't have to back up with my guitar).    Many of these songs do not have a chorus and some have lyrics that are more easily mixed up than others.   I often have to "shift gears" from one day to the next and do an almost entirely different playlist. (I'm doing some sort of theme program for a few weeks and need to switch to another very quickly.) I also jam and share music with different groups, each group having a kind of different repertoire of shared songs. During the course of a year, I really NEED to perform at least a couple hundred songs and be prepared to do hundreds of others upon request (or - to go back to Mary G's initial point - to participate in a song circle that has a specified or unwritten theme).

Pip, several people have suggested that most folk songs have only a few verses or have choruses for people to sing along with. Obviously there are many that aren't that simple.
You say you'd never use a crib sheet to sing 24 verses of Little Musgrave.   But if you wanted others to sing along with you, would you?   I gave "Lorena" as an example of a song I love to play and sing but would just as soon have others sing along with me.
(In jam sessions it's not unusual to have 8 to 10 instruments playing at once. Even if your voice is strong, it's hard for one voice to be heard over 3 guitars, 2 banjos, 2 fiddles, a stand-up bass, an autoharp, and a mando. Having others sing along may be the only way for the vocals to compete with that.)   No matter whether I need the lyric sheet or not, the others usually do. And when I'm asking others to sing along, I don't have the luxury of ad libbing a lyric and having nobody notice.

I don't think anyone here is a fan of having people bury their heads in books or lyric sheets. I think we pretty much agree that if you have to make much use of your printed page it's probably going to make your delivery less powerful and effective.   But if a symphony orchestra or choir can bring you to tears while using sheet music on stands or in folders and making eye contact with the conductor choir director -- not you, the audience -- how can it be that a solo or duo or trio couldn't thrill you and move you if they happened to use a printed page in similar fashion?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 03:28 PM

Guest Bob,
Your dance caller rules seem to sum it up pretty well for me. I'd adapt them as follows:
1. DO learn your song and rehearse it so you won't have to read it from a book or notes.
(Exception: In some settings you may get requests for songs you didn't specifically rehearse to perform that night, in which case making using your own notebook of songs may not be such a bad thing.)
2. Even if you've performed a song hundreds of times without notes, if it's important to get the lyrics right and it's not a simple, short song, it can be helpful to have some sort of lyric sheet or "cue card" where you can glance at it unobtrusively.

Jim C, you can't maintain eye contact with anyone continuously (that's called staring) -- especially with a whole audience.   Your eyes glance around the room as you're looking at the audience, and a quick glance at a page of music can be hardly more noticeable than blinking.
I just think it's intolerant to dismiss a performer just because there's a music stand or such in front of him/her, even if they obviously know the song and are not just using the song sheet as a substitute for rehearsal.
The analogy to speakers using teleprompters is valid insofar as professionals can often use large-print cue cards or teleprompters without the audience being able to tell that they are using them.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:51 PM

I see that "Bernard" gets the point of my song! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

If everyone is singing from the same book, why not just say the page number, everyone take a quick peek and clap. No need to bother singing the songs at all!

(I'll get me coat!)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

I have to admit, I'm starting to rely on a crib sheet for songs that once upon a time were fixed in my memory... but then I don't sing as often as I used to, and my memory is like a singularly volatile sieve. If it's ever my fate to succumb to Alzheimer's, it will be about 18 months before anyone notices.

However, some useful tips I learned at a dance callers' workshop many years ago:
   Rule 1. Make sure you know the dance thoroughly so you don't need a crib.
   Rule 0. Have the crib handy anyway.
Maybe the same consideration applies.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Silas
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:54 PM

If a song is worth singing, surely it is worth learning?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM

Thanks Howard. That is helpful. From what I have read, the Press Room and Shanty Sing that our New Englanders refer to may be very similar, and I'm sure there are other similar venues in some regions in the USA, but not many. The closest common thing here is probably "Open Mic" nights at some bars and coffee houses. Very different from 5 to 20 people gathered in the privacy of some one's living room.

Janie

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:24 PM

mg: I am now announcing where I will be and that I want no group books and we will not take turns and we will not pontificate between songs and if anyone wants to join lme that is where I will be

What's wrong with taking turns? I much prefer it to the "jump in when you're ready" approach - being an unaccompanied singer I don't have the luxury of strumming an intro.

Much of the discussion here seems premised on the idea that our songs are short, simple, and/or repetitive.

Does it? I never use a crib, whether I'm singing four verses of Thousands Or More or twenty-four of Little Musgrave.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:17 PM

Janie, yes I am in the UK. Here there are two typical formats. One is the "floorspot", where a performer is given two or three songs, up in front of the audience (who will usually have paid to get in). Often there are a number of floorspots from different singers before the main guest comes on.

The other is the "singaround", which is less formal, but not totally informal. In this setup singers take it in turn, usually going round the room and taking one song each at a time. Usually there is not a main guest.

In both cases these are usually held in pubs, not in private houses which I gather is more common in the US. In the case of singarounds in particular, these may be held in an open bar where they can be heard by other customers (the other type of club is usually in a separate function room where entry can be controlled).

In both formats the songs sung may or may not be intended for joining in. Usually, the audience would be expected to join in only with the chorus, and not with the verses unless invited (indeed, this would usually be disapproved of since the singer may be doing a different version of the song). However etiquette does vary from club to club.

You will therefore understand that these are far more in the nature of individual performances than the type of gathering you are perhaps familiar with.

There is of course a place for venues where people can just sing without feeling under pressure, and where novice singers can gain experience. However in my view these should be private gatherings or workshops, or at least confined to situations such as festivals where passers-by are folkies, rather than a public bar where it will be heard by the general public. Folk music has enough of an image problem, and where events are accessible by the general public some degree of quality control may be appropriate.

Genie said in a post yesterday that he would rather hear a good singer using a book than a mediocre singer without one who forgot the words. Well, given that choice, so would I. However, in my experience it is rare to find a good singer who needs a book. Most singers who rely on books are unconfident singers, but having the words to hand doesn't make them any more confident or competent - instead of forgetting the words they are just as likely to lose their place on the page.

Encouraging people to memorise songs is not just about presentation. The work involved in doing this helps to improve everything about your singing