Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:34 AM

"Your tolerance level seems to be set at -100."
I think it is as unjust and irrational to describe those of us who find the use of crib sheets inrusive, as being intolerant, as it would be for us to describe those who use them as lazy bastards who can't be bothered.
I'm happy to accept Janie's argument, to a degree, but the 'Linus blanket argument just doesn't work for me at all - unless you have a deficiancy which prevents you from doing so, there is nothing to stop you putting in the necessary work in order to prepare the song for performance.
Genie;
"Just as a skilled speaker or TV journalist...."
Don't accept the analogy at all. A song is a structured piece of work with a set sequence which can (has to be) be learned; a talk is a totally different matter.
Still can't see how glancing down at a script enables a singer maintain eye-contact; it seems to me a singer is dividing his/her attention into three directions; song-script-audience; and if he/she is using accompaniment - that way leads to madness.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:24 AM

I was talking to the late and much lamented Jake Thackeray some years ago and I asked him why he never sang 'Isobel makes love on our national monuments' any more. His answer was most illuminating. He told me that the last time he sang it, halfway through he was thinking about replacing the glass in his garage window at home and was thinking to himself if he had enough putty. He realised that the song meant nothing to him any more, he could sing it without thinking about it and as if he was on auto pilot. So he just stopped singing it.

I think the moral is, learn your song, learn it well, but know when to stop singing it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:41 PM

Chris,

*blush*

Went back and re-read that post myself. I should add to the remark about understanding that there is not room for people like me at all tables, that I also do not think there ought to be room for folks like me at all tables. However, it is possible, and in my opinion, desirable, to appreciate and validate, rather than devalue, the function of any setting where people come together to sing. I do hope that there will always be room for folks like me at some tables where good musicians and singers also sit. I would also hope that good musicians and singers who do not care for "community sings" (I don't much enjoy them, myself) might at least acknowledge and validate the worth and value of them, and not belittle these music gatherings where people come together to raise their voices in song, even if the quality of the music or personal satisfaction you formerly derived is no longer there, and so you choose not to participate.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:40 PM

Worst thing is people who have memorized five songs wont change them and wont learn any more and expect you to turn up at their gigs.

Second worst thing is singing to people who would like to sing along but who do not have the lyrics. Everyone should have lyrics and where possible notation.

It takes time to learn lyrics bring your audience into the tent with assistance.

Then there are people who think they know the lyrics and don't quite....what a mess.

As the priest once said.....one day I went in without a script and buried them instead of marrying them. Lyrics and notation can be helpful to stay on track.

One can improvise better with a few tools.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:09 PM

Howard,
I don't think you and I disagree that much.

Yes, the focus in folk music is the song, not the singer. To me that's why I'm not crazy about hearing the great singers & instrumentalists "fake it" or leave out key verses when they go blank (as anyone can do) on a well-written song.   And that's why it doesn't bother me if people have some sort of cue-sheet handy.

I like this: ".As for performance, all a folk singer has to do is stand there and sing. They're not expected to do a dance routine, or wave their arms around in a cloud of dry ice."
LOL
Of course, what I mean by "performance" is things like engaging the audience, putting feeling into the song, etc., not doing a tap dance while singing.

Much of the discussion here seems premised on the idea that our songs are short, simple, and/or repetitive.   And I do many songs of that sort, where I'd never feel the need to use song sheets.   But there are other types that are more challenging, especially if you want anyone to sing along.   E.g., one of my "special" songs is the US Civil War song "Lorena." Even if I leave out 2 verses, there are 4 more, and there's nary a repeat in the lyrics except for the name "Lorena."   Plus a few lines in the verses are sort of interchangeable (from one verse to another), which is a problem if you want others to sing with you, which I do.

As for the competence of those who may be playing and singing along, I jam with some folks who are superb instrumentalists and good singers too. They can usually play along without chord sheets if it's "folk" or "country" or "bluegrass" and they can be good at harmonizing too. But if I do a song they haven't practiced singing and it doesn't have a chorus, or I want them to join on the verses, they really need lyric sheets. These jammers usually don't use printed material -- though many fiddlers like to have "the dots" if it's not an old favorite -- but if they do use lyric sheets or music scores it generally makes for a better jam on the new song than would be without the sheets.   The other thing about jams like this is, the way the group often learns a new song is to use song sheets the first few times.   The jam session is, among other things, an opportunity to work up new material as a group.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:49 PM

FWIW, Bob (Deckman), I go to the Seattle Song Circles fairly often - at least on the 2nd and 3rd Sundays - and while people often do use printed songs in one way or another, most of the songs people do there are not from Rise Up Singing, and even when a song is "in the book," if it's a familiar song, most people don't use the book. Some people do solos (or maybe sing with one or two others who know the song they're doing) but on many songs the group sings along. It's pretty varied and depends on who shows up. It's certainly not an "everybody turn to page 242" routine.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 09:49 PM

Janie, I feel that I really must thank you for many of your postings, because they carry so much honesty and deep-felt conviction and sincerity in what you say here.

I particular (and may I encourage others on this thread to scroll back and read this), your posting on 05 Feb 10 at 10.54 PM;
I personally found your words here to be beautiful, honest and heart-renderingly true. You definately hit my nail on the head, moved me deeply and stopped me in my tracks.

I just wish I could express myself and my experience of the whole 'folk experience' anywhere near as good as you.

God bless you.

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:36 PM

Howard, am I correct in thinking you are in the UK?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:24 PM

Genie, the point I was trying to make is that folk music is a lot more open than most genres of music. The focus is the song, not the singer. Consequently a wonderful voice is not required to be a great folk singer. As for performance, all a folk singer has to do is stand there and sing. They're not expected to do a dance routine, or wave their arms around in a cloud of dry ice.

All that really leaves is the singing. All I'm asking is that people make the effort learn to sing and learn the song. Again, can I remind you I'm referring to people doing a solo turn, not people singing together as part of a group. I'm referring to people giving performances, even if they may be fairly informal.

I reject the idea, which seems increasingly prevalent, that all that matters is that people sing, regardless of what comes out. Sure, folk allows people to participate, but there's more to it than that. It should be possible to go to a folk club and hear music performed to a reasonable standard.

If people really can't sing, then they shouldn't be inflicting it on an audience, keep it for the shower. If they can sing, then please make an effort to do it properly. Otherwise, it's just self-indulgence - a belief that other people are going to want to hear you sing this song, even though you haven't taken the trouble to learn it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

I hear you, Genie, and I enjoy joining in on choruses or with a harmony when I can. I really like singing harmony, but because I rarely have an opportunity to sing with others, my "harmony muscle" gets out of shape. I notice at the Getaway that by the last evening, I can find a harmony much easier than at the beginning. To really do a good job singing harmony, I need to be able to rehearse the part again, again and again. I do not have a great "ear" or great confidence

I know how much I love those wonderful, big, fat harmonies that arise on the choruses of some songs at the Getaway, especially those songs it is obvious have been long beloved and are well-known to a large bunch of the FSGW folks. Having been to a couple of Getaway's yourself, you know just what I am talking about. I'll sing softly and tentatively so that my search for a harmony won't throw off the person next to me, or switch to singing the melody an octave below, which is usually in the basement of my range, and which strains and damages my voice. I might have heard many of these songs enough to be somewhat familiar, but most of them I don't know well. My problems with memorization are very evident in these situations. If I'm lucky (not to mention the person sitting next to me) I will finally have the melody and the words to the chorus down by the last of 10 chorus repetitions. It is hard to sing harmony when one does not have the melody down pat. I sing along as best I can, and very softly.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM

A few years ago, after years of disgust about the manner in which "rise up singing" has RUINED the Seattle song circle I helped form by supporting it early on, I wrote a song:

"This is the song, on page 17, page 17, page 17,
This is the song on page 17,
And my books better than yours.

2ND VERSE:

"This is the song on page 18, page 18, page 18,
This is the song on page 18,
And my books better than yours.

3rd verse:

This is the song, on page 19" ... you get my drift.

Many years ago, when the late John Dwyer phoned me, and asked if I would help to support a "song circle" in Seattle, I jumped at the chance. Prior to that, we had our occasional hoots, but the thought of having a regular weekly meeting where we could exchange our songs in that free flow of spontaneous music, was exciting to all of us.

After some years, I distanced myself from regular attendance due to raising a family and working two jobs, most of my life. When I finally tried to return to the Seattle "song circle", I was thunderstruck to see that it had become nothing more than a "community sing." Nothing of the spontaneous give and take, and musical repartee was left.

"This is the song on page 20, page 20, page 20 ...... Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

Jim.

You're probably right about the book (if that is the one I remember). I borrowed it from Edinburgh Central Library and I left Edinburgh at the end of '74.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:04 PM

In case it confused anyone, this paragraph in my recent post wasn't mine and was included by mistake:

"tBut having said that, I still am not convinced that anybody can interpret and enjoy the songs while they are being read from a page, either singer or audience.
But I think the argument here is wider than the situatuion you pose. We are talking about the general use of crib-sheets by people who are able to learn songs, but don't or won't, for one reason or another."

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

Jim: "Blogward describes a strange situation of reading from a large sheet of paper so he can can 'keep eye contact with the audience' - sorry, that one lost me altogether."
It's really not that hard. Kind of like keeping your eye on the road when driving yet glancing from time to time in the rear-view mirror.

Just as a skilled speaker or TV journalist use a monitor without it being obvious to the audience, it's possible to use a large-print lyric sheet very unobtrusively, especially if you already know the song pretty well.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

Janie, I can relate to your point about group singing often being uncomfortable for those of use who tend to sing in different keys than most of the group.

But I think some songs are "made" by harmony, especially multi-part harmony, and try as I might, I just cannot pull off harmony as a soloist (without hi-tech help). I'm funny that way.

While I concur in not liking it when everyone is expected to sing along on evrerything, I do think that group singing provides some wonderful music experiences that listening to a series of soloists can't.   While the point has tended to be passed over in this discussion, I think that a primary valid reason for using books or sheet music is to facilitate people singing together "from the same page of the music" and with harmonies added.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:36 PM

Jim Carroll: "Janie,
... My instinct is to suggest that you sing the songs you know, whether you repeat them or not, ..."

That may be your instinct, Jim, but some of us, as performers and/or as audience members, would rather have more different songs presented than have everything done excellently with no cheat sheets.

Janie's earlier post is an excellent summary of how the disdain for ever using printed material can suppress people's enjoyment of the process of making music.

I would add that some people cannot get by with just overlearning a few dozen songs.   I, for instance, do music professionally for senior communities such as retirement and nursing homes.   To provide entertainment (for some) and music as therapy (for others) for a wide spectrum of communities, I need to have hundreds of different songs that I can and do use for concerts, parties, sing-alongs, and room-to-room music. I probably have at least 500 songs committed to memory - and many others that I can do upon request with only a brief refresher glance at the lyrics.   If I add the repertoire that I use at folk gatherings - which doesn't overlap a lot with what I get paid to play and sing -- that adds another couple hundred.      And many of the songs I do are somewhat seasonal or audience specific, plus my audiences often make requests.   I'm not a great singer or guitarist, but I do have an exceptionally large and eclectic repertoire, which is important in my work.

Again, we're back to the one-size-does-not-fit-all concept.   
Both for most of my paid gigs and for most folk workshops and song circles I attend, the focus is more on enjoying good songs, having people join in, and performing them decently.   And lyric/chord sheets can be very helpful, especially if they're large enough print to be read from several feet away (and at a glance).   

--

Howard: "Folk singing doesn't require a perfect voice, or even very much in the way of performing skills, but it should it least involve singing in tune and remembering the words. "
Just my opinion, but I'd much rather listen to someone with a good voice and impressive instrumental skills who had sheet music on a stand in front of him/her than to a mediocre musician and singer do a song that's been perfectly memorized.
A soloist using sheet music doesn't bother me any more than it does when orchestras or choirs do.




tBut having said that, I still am not convinced that anybody can interpret and enjoy the songs while they are being read from a page, either singer or audience.
But I think the argument here is wider than the situatuion you pose. We are talking about the general use of crib-sheets by people who are able to learn songs, but don't or won't, for one reason or another.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM

There is a Link to the above Drunken sailor on the Lower Coke Threads.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:14 PM

In regards to Drunken Sailor John Barden said to me at the end of the Stoke session.
"Bloody Hell Pete they are going to love you at Sidmouth?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM

All Im am saying is give people new to the scene a chance howsoever they achieve it.
Kind regards to all Pierre.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:07 PM

Thank you very much Crows sister but there are many verses to drunken sailor and I only sang 4 folk were shocked when I stopped so quickly. I f I had the lyrics to the sixteen other verses written in front of me I would have continued in the much same manner has you discribed above except I would have and have mastered the glance tecnhcque

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM

I don't think they are meaningless at all. This happened last weekend. It has to come out in the open or other groups will shut down. True, new ones could take their place, and fine. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

"Who the more foolish the Fool?"

Pierre/Pete, what folks need is a *performer*, in my humble, that's about it.
All this talk of crib sheets and banned songs is meaningless without good robust performamnce.

EG: you pull off "Drunken Sailor" in a a way many who strum it never will, because you invest it with a good laugh. It feels like a balsy salty song - it works because you fill it wit character.

Many times I think these discussions on Mudcat are totally meaningless, like studying the suummerz buzz of the bee... ... by sticking it in a glue filled test-tube.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

Ron D, I agree about RUS.

It is very hard to use "the blue book of death" as an unobtrusive 'cue card', because the type is small and the format is such that it's very hard to GLANCE occasionally at the page to refresh your memory in case of a brain fart (or when there's a verse you never learned.)

People using RUS do tend to have their head buried in the page.   
Plus RUS has many non-standard versions of lyrics and/or chords, in addition to outright errors.   Aside from all else we've said about the pluses and minuses of printed 'crutches', I hate singing from "the blue hymnal" because my version of the song -- whether "the correct one" or merely one of many variations -- is likely to be different from what's in the book.

Although many people and groups use it, I really don't think RUS was intended to be read from regularly in song circles. It usually has good info on the source of songs and it can be a great aid to adding songs to your repertoire, but it's far better as a research resource than as a hymnal or substitute for big-print lyric sheets or sheet music.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:42 PM

Hi Yorkie no offense taken
In regards to Clowns.
But
Who the more foolish the Fool? or the Fool who follows such self perfection. There is nothing wrong with using pen downed details. What about people like my son who is dyslexic or folk who learn in there own way by the pencil and pad.
The home is not always the place to learn. Playing in front of people/The cat is not half has encouraging has playing with a written paper if you are learning-in front of a singer around audience fore if one does get it right its a buzz that leads to the eventual latter.
Kind regards Pierre

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM

It is okay to sing. Period. From a book, from imagination, from notes written in felt-tip on the back of your hand, from a bouncing ball on a video screen prompter, or from heart-learned songs. Just, sing dammit!


A

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM

Mary (mg), who said that a singaround in a pub or a folk song circle is analogous to a "highly skilled" quilting bee?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

Don, I agree that most audiences can't tell if you make a mistake if you act like you did it on purpose. But that doesn't mean the mistake lyric is as good as the correct one. Sometimes it just means the audience wasn't paying that much attention to the lyrics or maybe that they'll just be less impressed with the lyrics than they might have been without the error.

"I don't create new arrangements with my mistakes. If I make a mistake I make sure I don't repeat it next time."
Maybe you won't, but other people who heard the mistake might pass it on, without realizing it was a mistake.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:34 PM

I think we have an obligation when we enter a group that is new to us not to be an invasive species. We should look around and try to see what others are doing. We should ask and not presume. We should not impose. I would not go to shape note gatherings and try to get them to not use their books. I would not go to choir practice and try to get them to not use books. Likewise, I expect that if a group has functioned without written or spoken rules, but there at least in recent memory no books in sight (I am not talking about for individual use but group use)I should not be the one to force it on the group. Then next week someone else comes and there will be two, and then it spreads. A group can tolerate a bit of flexibility, but then it changes. People who preferred one way are not going to probably scold you..they are just not going to come back to the original group once it reaches its tipping point. We can all think of many groups in many cities that will never tip back. The only hope is to reform a group with strict written and oral guidelines.

To me the main issue is the late night sessions at the camps. That is why I go to the camps. People have all day at the workshops, they have a concert, they have an official song circle with books and tolerance for books. What happens is that after this is all done, some of us find another building..I am now announcing where I will be and that I want no group books and we will not take turns and we will not pontificate between songs and if anyone wants to join lme that is where I will be. Even with announcements before hand, even when people have to move from the main lodge where the default would be it is OK to use books and take turns..they will still come with their books and expect to take turns in a separate room that has been set up for the purpose of exactly not doing that. That is when I think it is invasive species behavior. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM

Pip, you may be right. What's more, the uncritical audiences have created an environment which drives the critical ones away.

I used to go to at least a couple of folk clubs a week. One was purely a singers' club, no guests, but the standard was mostly fairly good. The other had booked guests most weeks, and a pretty high standard of floor singers. I don't think that had to be policed, rather that the poorer singers realised they would be out of their depth and didn't put themselves forward. There were other places they could sing.

I was happy to only play a couple of songs myself because I knew I would enjoy listening to the other performers.

Now, guest clubs have more or less disappeared (around here anyway) leaving just the singers clubs. I'm not prepared to go to these, only get to play a couple of songs myself and then have to listen to a load of poorly prepared and under-rehearsed performers. I prefer to go to informal music sessions where I can play all night.

I fear the bad is driving out the good.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:20 PM

two hundred and nine posts on a simple question. Is it any wonder that no one with a pulse goes to 'folk' clubs? Your tolerance level seems to be set at -100.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Yorky
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:13 PM

Loads of excuses for using paper here.

Just LEARN the bloomin' song and dispense with the paper - I despair when I see folk comin' thro' the door into our fortnightly singaround with BIG (ever expanding) A4 files, leafing thro' them and when it's their turn, settlin' on one they've done virtually every time for the last umpteen months and singin' it from the bloomin' sheet. AAAARGH!

Practise at home, not in the assembled company. Nothin' worse than some clown announcin' "This is a new one - I've not got it right yet, but I'll give it a go anyway"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:09 PM

Of course I made some mistakes but they covered me. But I never made the same mistake twice as the other members were very fierce critics.
As I got more experience I realised that they had been teaching me to stand on my own two feet.

Getting back to folk clubs, I suspect Mike's put his finger on what's changed. The story might go like this: there used to be a demanding audience for folk music, which rewarded people who made the effort to get it right; performers who put in a slipshod performance would be tolerated, but they'd be left in no doubt that they needed to try harder. Now there's an uncritical audience, which rewards anyone who makes the effort to get out of their seat. (But I wasn't around for part 1, so I've no idea if this is true or not.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:35 PM

Hi howard

I agree with you.

Like you I first performed in school where the pupils had been instructed to go. So they weren't very sympathetic to our fumbling early performances.

Like you I learned how to improve , mainly by practice....bloody practice.

Some time later I joined a rock group as guitarist vocalist. This group was semi-pro and we got paid for every gig. The group had been together for some time but the vocalist moved on.

I was given a list of songs that I would be required to sing. And I just had to learn them !!!! or else.................

Luckily most of the songs were hit songs of the time and I knew many of them but not completely word perfect and certainly not to performance standard.

I got by although the first few dates were a little nerve-racking.

AND NOT A BOOK NOR PIECE OF PAPER DID I HAVE. !!! They wouldn't let me. They did feed me the keys and some of the first lines and I went from there.

Of course I made some mistakes but they covered me. But I never made the same mistake twice as the other members were very fierce critics.
As I got more experience I realised that they had been teaching me to stand on my own two feet.

I soon became confident. Each week when we met for practice we would go through what our content would be for the gigs for that week. There were always new songs to be done and as the vocalist it was my job to learn the lyrics.

Fortunately I found learning words - be they poetry or lyrics of songs easy.

Even now ....and I'm over 21....lol I still find it almost as easy as I did then.

Of course in some ways it is easier now then then - the Internet is a constant and immediate source of lyrics both in written and audio mediums.

I have no objection to others using props but I believe that it would better for all if they did learn the word adequately to perform.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM

So, is memorization "dumb"?   That would be news.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:03 PM

I have said throughout that my own comments are directed at the UK setup, which I believe was the context of the OP's question.

A group singaround where everyone is joining in the whole song, verses as well as choruses, is a different matter. Then it clearly makes sense for everyone to be singing the same version, which suggests the use of a book or songsheets. If I'm understanding correctly, the concern is not about using these as such, but that one particular book has become dominant to the point where some people feel it is stifling.

In the pubs where the traditional Sheffield Carols are sung they will often provide songbooks, mainly for the benefit of visitors who are not familiar with the carols, many of which are either local or are local variants. I have no problem with this.

It is very different where an individual singer is taking their turn in a singaround or performing a floorspot. No one expects you to come up to professional standards, but that's no excuse for not putting in the necessary work on the songs. Why should the audience be expected to listen to you if you have not?

If you have a medical condition which affects your memory, then clearly that puts a different light on things. However this only affects a minority. Nevertheless, I would encourage the use of discreet cue cards, to support singing from memory as far as possible, rather than singing from a full set of lyrics.

In case anyone thinks I had it easy, my first public performances were at a folk club held at my school. An audience made up of one's 16-18 year old peers (most of whom are there to meet girls rather than out of any interest in folk music) is a far cry from the caring and supportive atmosphere usually found in adult singarounds. I've had my share of forgetting words or making embarrasing mix-ups. I've learned from them - learned to prepare better, and learned tricks to cope with the occasional blanks. You can't learn this if you rely on having the words in front of you.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:01 PM

Bryan
Your argument, in the context of a discussion on basic standards, was that the only requirement for giving a singer a floor spot was a desire on their part to want to sing, nothing more. You even consulted your committee to confirm that this was club policy. As far Is I am aware, you have never moved from this statement - as far as I am concerned, this is 'dumbing down', as I believe that the ability to hold a tune, and remember and understand a text is a must.
If your stance on this has altered in any way, there is no argument.
Of course you give all singers who wish to a chance to sing, as I've said on several occasions, but should they prove themselves unable to do either or both of the above, you offer them assistance rather than allowing them to continue to practice in public.
I know that Lewes has an enviable programme of workshops, but you have never said how you cater for beginners.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:00 PM

"How are we supposed to know before we put them on?"

I get seriously muddled with some of these discussions.

If Jim is saying that all *amateur session* members need to be vetted, then I say he is wrong. In the same way any amateur club accepts all-comers (be they watercolourists or macrameists).

If Jim is saying folk clubs aught to vet whatever they put up on stage before a *paying audience*, then I agree.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 02:28 PM

Well, I have about 15 linear feet of songbooks. I have "manufactured books" by Alan Lomax, Cyril Tawney and Carl Sandberg. I have lyric books by Judy Collins and Joan Biaz. I have hymnals from a variety of religions. I have folios filled with sheets that have been passed out at various places, including the Getaway. I have notebooks with songs transcribed from records. IMHO, a "manufactured book" that was originally overseen by Pete Seeger is a pretty good resource. Are you seriously advocating that, if a person wants to sing a song in RUS (which hasn't been blue for years), they transcribe it and memorize the transcription? Seems dumb to me, but I'm no judge of others.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 02:11 PM

Because, as I said, it's a manufactured book, not one put together by the singer.   And since it has lots of songs, it's easy for somebody to decide on the spur of the moment they'd like to try one--having no idea how it goes.   And everybody else is subjected to that.   Or they stumble through every verse.   And if you sing a song that's in that book, but not the exact words as in the book, or in the same order,   everybody with the book is baffled--and not happy.

There is also no reason on God's green earth that everybody has to sing every word of every song. I'm perfectly happy to just come in on a chorus, and let the leader sing the verses.

Again, if RUS floats your boat, no problem. Just tell us in advance that that book will be there, and those of us who want a different experience will make plans accordingly.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 02:01 PM

"Far more pernicious"? It's a songbook. I've never met anyone who thought of it as sacred text. And if someone wants to refer to that book rather than another reference, why not?

200, by the way.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:54 PM

Nobody says RUS shouldn't be used at a sing.   But it should be made clear in advance that it will be used.   And some of us won't be there.

That book is far more pernicious than any other book--especially, as I noted, a book lovingly put together by a singer over a period of years. And I'd be surprised if someone who has sung for 40 years doesn't have such a compendium of songs he or she likes to sing. It doesn't sound as if RUS should be necessary in the situation described.

Even better is no book at all--but we realize that that is a problem for some singers.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:50 PM

Jim Carroll

It also avoids the resposibility that I believe should be adopted by all serious clubs to provide assistance to new singers rather than throwing them in at the deep-end by putting them in front of an audience before they have mastered the basics (singing in tune, and remembering and understanding the words enough to be able to share a song).

How are we supposed to know before we put them on?

This is very much a part of "to dumb down or not to dumb down2 argument that Bryan and I have been embroiled in over the last millenium or so; that's how it feels anyway.

I don't approve of dumbing down. You don't approve of dumbing down.What's the argument?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:37 PM

"I still am not convinced that anybody can interpret and enjoy the songs while they are being read from a page, either singer or audience."

I've heard *fabulous* personal renditions of songs, given whilst a prompt has been within eyesight of the singer. And I've heard poorly sung songs from out of a folder too. As a listener, I simply cannot come down either way on prompts by others, because I really think that the quality of performance is entirely down to the ability of the singer - prompt or no prompt.

For myself however - I asked here and elewhere for advice on singing traditional songs before I went out to clubs. The advice I received emphasised the importance of setting a song to memory, so that it beds into you and you become intimately familiar with ever one of it's nooks and crannies.
Personally, I've found heeding that advice has been most worthwhile.

Although I started learning last year by memorising, initially I'd still keep my prompt just casually within sight (only resorting to a glance if hitting a blank), but because I determined from get go to memorise my rep. I now comfortably go out to sing without any prompt. I lost my words on one song the other night (and so missed a turn as I completely blanked and couldn't even improvise the verse), but I've found that odd moments like that become rarer, the less you are willing to allow yourself to resort to the security of printed words. And importantly I've found the *real* security comes in feeling safe to mess up ocassionally and be 'imperfect' amongst friends. Even better is to learn to recover through fast thinking and improvising a fitting alternative to the words you've memorised (arguably exactly the way traditional singers might have done, all the time?).

But to return to Jim's point, while I can't speak concerning issues of interpretation with words as a *listener*. I will say that learning to swim without armbands feels very freeing, and so too does walking without crutches, and likewise singing without word-sheets. The *experiential* difference between KNOWING a song through and through and being dependent on a support in order to sing it, feels a pretty substantial one to me. I'm glad I started out by determining to memorise my words, it's been well worth it so far. And now that I'm venturing forth into the 'muckle sangs' (longer narrative ballads), I know it can only get better..

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:29 PM

I think Art Brooks has well articulated that the setting of UK folk clubs is very different from our informal song circles in living rooms. Very different contexts. It does sound like these are venues that serve to provide many folks with an opportunity to perform.

I think there is also a difference between a song circle where it becomes the norm for everyone to sing out of a standard songbook, be it RUS or any other book, and a song circle, such as Art describes, where some folks need lyrics or prompts for at least some songs, and some use nothing.

I do not particularly enjoy "group sings" where there is the expectation that everyone will sing along with every song, and the use of a standard book, RUS or otherwise, might be common.   For one thing, my voice is very low pitched. Whether it is congregational singing in church or a group sing, chances are it is going to be pitched in a key I can not join in on comfortably, or if it is my turn to lead a song, few people are going to be able to comfortably sing along in a key that works for me. doesn't mean I am opposed to them occurring. Just means I won't be there.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: SunrayFC
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

One can not sing AND read at the same time...unless you are as qualified as BBC newsreaders who are very good at it. Like them or not they are good at what they do.

What amazes me are the people who sing a song everyone else knows but they don't.

My advice... spend the time learning the song and make the performance a performance not a reading.

I have seen sessions where everyone gets their ringbinders out.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

Dave MacKenzie;
Would appreciate some clarification on the David Buchan book you quoted from - I know 'The Ballad and The Folk' but 'The Ballad People' is a new one on me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 12:24 PM

Janie,
I apologise if I have misunderstood your situation.
My instinct is to suggest that you sing the songs you know, whether you repeat them or not, and if you are unable to learn more over a time - sure - use a prompt sheet if you have to. But having said that, I still am not convinced that anybody can interpret and enjoy the songs while they are being read from a page, either singer or audience.
But I think the argument here is wider than the situatuion you pose. We are talking about the general use of crib-sheets by people who are able to learn songs, but don't or won't, for one reason or another.
Blogward describes a strange situation of reading from a large sheet of paper so he can can 'keep eye contact with the audience' - sorry, that one lost me altogether.
Can I re-iterate what somebody wrote earlier; the question of singing from a book is a relatively new one; I honestly haven't witnesses it to any great degree in any of the clubs I have been involved in to any great degree, and I believe that the general standard of singing was far higher than it appears to be today, as was the understanding of 'folk' song.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 12:01 PM

I remember reading a book, I think it was David Buchan's "The Ballad People" over 30 years ago, where he studied various versions of traditional ballads and came to the conclusion that at that time in Scotland, songs were remembered by use of a narrative skeleton into which "floating" verses could be slotted, so that apparently different versions in the collections of that time were in fact what would have considered the same song by the sources.

That is my main objection to printed sources, in that they remove the ability to vary the performance according to circumstances.

In modern times, I don't think Dylan has ever had definitive versions of his songs - just compare the "Freewheelin'" and Hallowe'en '64 versions of "Don't Think Twice".

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM

Jim, I mispoke. Of course there are songs I can sing without having a prompt in front of me, but not many, and not as many as I could at one time. At the Getaway, which is two days of wall-to-wall workshop sing-arounds and three nights of song circles from after supper until....there is no way I am going to commit enough songs new to me to memory, and I do not want to subject folks to listening to me sing the same songs year after year. I only get to see most of these folks once a year.

I likely have a milder version of a learning disability with which my son has been diagnosed that effects the ability to readily memorize material. It is a dual-process involving rote learning and processing speed, which refers to how long it takes to retrieve information stored in the brain. (Was convinced I was never going to get to go to recess again when memorizing the multiplication tables.) Most of the songs that I can remember entirely without a prompt are songs I learned when I could still play guitar and autoharp, which I have not been able to do for years because of a joint condition. The use of an instrument results in learning happening through multiple sensory imputs and learning pathways that support and assist with rote memorization. Rote learning has always been difficult for me, and has gotten more so in the past few years, which I attribute to the normal processes of aging.

I choose to work on a song, practice it as much as I can, get the lyrics down as best I reasonably can, and then be sure I have them near in the likely event I am going to need to refer to them. I also tend to limit myself to shorter songs, knowing that if there are more than 3 short verses, I end up having to keep my eyes glued to the lyrics sheet.

Most of you have probably have the experience of occasionally blanking on the next verse or line and having to stop until your brain finds and retrieves the information.   It is like that, only it happens with much greater frequency. It is not caused by performance anxiety, but can create or intensify performance anxiety, and then the anxiety itself magnifies the problem.

.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:52 AM

Please keep in mind that we are speaking about at least two very different things: singing, or performing, in clubs - which is apparently the UK interpretation of a song circle/singaround - and singing in a private home, which is more typical in the US.

Last night was the "First Friday" sing here in Albuquerque. About the third time around the circle I mentioned this discussion, and the very idea of discouraging the use of books was met with derision. I am not terribly fond of RUS as the be-all and end-all of sources, but some of our participants are elderly and need a memory aid. Should we say, "sorry, David, but you can't take a turn any more because you now need to read the words"? This would be the man who founded the song-circle here some 40 years ago.

It was a typical evening for us. Some people never opened a book at all, some used a book or other notes as a cue (that would be me), and some pretty much read every word. So what? We were gathered to enjoy music and each other's company, and that's exactly what we did.