Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

Lighter - Don't think that the case re BARBARA ALLEN'S ORIGINS. Earliest known REF TO IT is, I realise, PEPYS HAVING RECORDED hearing actress Mrs Knipp singing it (2 January 1665), but he calls it "the Scotch song of Barbara Allen", which shows that he realised it didn't originate with her or the performance he was attending.

[Apologies for confusion with shift-lock above - didn't intend to SHOUT!]

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:58 AM

just for amusement and possible edification, could this possibly be a living breathing illustration
of folk process and evolution in action within one short generation ???

1. Kirsty MacColl & Billy Bragg 1991

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7aVZ3BHp3k

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM

2. The same song performed at an informal social 'folk' gathering in 2007
by it's original writer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtCo2nxh1XA

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 12:02 PM

3. the same song performed in 2008 by its origional writer
but as a reminder of the style it was first presented to a late 70's
music audience

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m34MATtD4Us&feature=related


give it another 30 years ????

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:09 PM

What Pepys writes of is "Mrs. Knipp...and *her* [my emphasis] little Scotch song of 'Barbary Allen.'" That may suggest a greater exclusivity to Knipps, and far less familiarity to Pepys, than "the."

Since Mrs. Knipp was a noted actress, it becomes more plausible that the song originated on the stage. OTOH, the diary has she and Pepys singing at "Lord Brouncker's," not in a performance as some writers seem to have assumed. Yet in a subsequent note to Pepys, the lady signed herself "Barbary Allen." This might suggest equally either a stage persona or mere coquettery.

I may have overstated the likelihood of a stage origin (not that it would make the song less "folk," just a little farther from the platonic ideal); but the case is annoyingly ambiguous.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:20 PM

For pedants like MtheGM and myself only:

The earliest printing of "BA" seems not to have occurred till ca1690, or about twenty-five after Pepys heard it.

No conclusion may be drawn, but that may be a long time to wait for either a truly well-known anonymous song or a popular stage song to get into print. Did Mrs. Knipps write it herself? If word-of-mouth currency began about 1665, and was at first restricted to a relatively limited social circle, it might well have taken the ballad a long time to come to the attention of the printer.

Just thinking aloud.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM

Having checked the diary entry, agree that song heard at a party at Lord Bruncker's. It seems that Mrs Knipp sang several songs [Pepys sang along with her, tho whether in all the songs she sang, incl this one, is not made clear], of which "her little Scotch song of Barbary Allen" was the one he enjoyed most. This suggests to me it was one she habitually sang, and this not first time he had heard her sing it [hence, surely, *her* song]; and that she had indicated it as a 'Scotch song'. The fact that she was also an actress does not appear to be that significant here, or necessarily indicate that she had learned the song as part of a play in which she was appearing or had appeared — she seemed to enjoy singing on social occasions quite independently of her profession; & indeed later in same entry Pepys sings in the coach on the way home while he feels up her breasts - so they were clearly on extremely friendly terms of which their singing together formed part. I agree however that the question is open ~ as so often in Pepys, not quite enough info to get the full picture between the lines.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:54 PM

I'd be interested to hear opinions on why traditional songs & tunes have been edged out of folk clubs?

Pete.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:49 PM

In my session, we sing "Kites" by the Simon Dupree and The Big Sound.

Cool. Of course SD&TBS went on to become Gentle Giant, masters of medieval-folk-proggery thus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK4cuXJa7QE.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM

Burton Coggles

I'd be interested to hear opinions on why traditional songs & tunes have been edged out of folk clubs?

Have they? Not in the folk clubs I go to.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: GUEST,Burton Coggles
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:01 AM

Snail: I'm just going on what seems to be a strongly held opinion by several people on this thread. I've only limited experience of folk clubs myself (2-3 years) so I have no personal experience of how they were in the past.

As I've stated above, my preference is for variety. Perhaps what I like shouldn't be called a folk club, I've no problem with that. But I have been introduced to trad songs/tunes through the clubs I've attended, and I probably wouldn't have attended them if they were "policy" traditional only clubs or sessions. FWIW Will Fly's session where the emphasis is on improvisation around the tune (trad or otherwise) sounds excellent - if a bit of singing is OK too!

Perhaps I'm better asking **if you are of the opinion** that trad. songs and tunes have been edged out, why do you think this is so?

Pete.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:24 AM

Pete, this won't answer your question, but it does seem relevant. A thread last fall invited 'Catters to name their favorite songs, the ones that make them "drop everything."

'Catters are thought to be the most trad-loving of all humans in the English-speaking world.

Check my comment here:

http://mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2767699

detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2767699

There were no "thoughts," FWIW.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 11:24 AM

I'm firmly of the opinion that trad. songs have been edged out. I've seen a rough 50|25|25 split, in several different venues, between singer-songwriter (covers), singer-songwriter (own material) and everything else (parlour songs, novelty songs, recitations... and traditional songs). The "covers" 50% comes in several different varieties - in one club it'll be Gordon Bok and Tom Paxton, in another Keith Marsden and Jez Lowe, while in a more 'contemporary' club it'll be Suzanne Vega and Beck. I guess it could be argued that Jez Lowe (or Gordon Bok) *is* folk in a way that Suzanne Vega isn't, but if what you're looking for is traditional song there really isn't that big a difference.

As for why, I think it's a combination of novelty and accessibility; traditional song has got a reputation for being either incredibly familiar and already done to death ("Early One Morning"), or ferociously obscure and difficult ("In Sir Patrick Spens I clean forgot the forty-second verse..."). A Suzanne Vega song you haven't heard isn't going to sound exactly like the ones you have, but it's not going to sound that different; it'll go down easily.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM

Will: as a musician, I come at traditional and not-so-traditional music from a quite different perspective - which is tunes and not words

I just knew you were going to say that! But you started on the songs, so I thought I'd follow suit.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 11:44 AM

I have been introduced to trad songs/tunes through the clubs I've attended, and I probably wouldn't have attended them if they were "policy" traditional only clubs or sessions.

Are there any trad-only clubs or sessions? I don't think I've ever been to one.

There are quite a few no-trad-allowed clubs and sessions, as the Sandbach example shows (and as is the situation in practice with some of the sessions in Midlothian, and at virtually any event anywhere described as an "open mike"). But the other way round? Really?

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 11:49 AM

FWIW Will Fly's session where the emphasis is on improvisation around the tune (trad or otherwise) sounds excellent - if a bit of singing is OK too!

Yes, there's singing as well - it's an eclectic session, and what is played or sung depends on who turns up. We just sit round a table or two and go round the table, allowing each person - if they want to - to play or sing whatever they choose. People join in if they know it, or if it sounds appropriate to join in. If you don't know the tune, you're encouraged to have a go. If I'm singing a song, for example, and others are playing along on their instruments, I invite people to play a chorus - improvise whenever they want to - sing a harmony - essentially make music. There are several traditional tunes sessions in my Sussex area - and very good ones {"English tunes and no bloody singing!"} for those who want exclusively that kind of session.

The monthly session (last Sunday of the month) at the Bull in Ditchling is the same kind of session as mine - though with many more musicians attending - and it's the one on which I modelled my own session: come as you are, do what you want, as long it's acoustic. As it happens, we usually get a nice mix of traditional tunes and songs, plus some American old-time and early country stuff, jug band music, even the odd Richard Thompson ditty - just to cheer us all up...

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 12:07 PM

Pip Radish:
Will: as a musician, I come at traditional and not-so-traditional music from a quite different perspective - which is tunes and not words

I just knew you were going to say that! But you started on the songs, so I thought I'd follow suit.

I should say that my preference for tunes is not as a result of disliking songs - I certainly do sing as a live performer - but I prefer my long helpings of sex, death, betrayal, battles and ballads, etc. to come in printed, rather than vocal form. There's nothing nicer than to curl up with Bob Copper's "A Song For Every Season" and books of songs, and a large glass of Dalwhinnie by a roaring radiator. In that genre, I prefer written prose and verse to sung prose and verse.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

"come as you are, do what you want, as long it's acoustic"


well that's where the likes of electric trad folkies like me are buggered all round then !!!


..even though these days the music gear consumer market
is over abundantly supplied with plenty of different brands of light mobile
very low wattage sensibly quiet volume
battery powered amps and speakers
that can be discretely positioned at sessions barely noticable under chairs and tables....


..and what about kiddies practice electric guitars with nicely gnarly distorting built in speakers ???

surely you'd be less audibly tortured if I turned up with one of them
instead of an ear bleedin' psaltery..

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 12:47 PM

Ah well, I don't know many ear bleedin' psaltery players - and the ones who might be in my area don't come to my session. :-)

I have nothing against amplified music (played electric guitar as a pro and semi-pro in various bands for over 30 years) and I remember the glory years of Fairport, Steeleye Span, etc. The main problem is that - in my experience - amplified stuff tends to get louder and louder as each player in turn surreptitiously turns up so that he/she can be heard. If you really like electric sessions - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - then why not start one up? I'd bring my 100w Gallien-Krueger and my G&L ASAT...

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:59 PM

Burton Coggles

Snail: I'm just going on what seems to be a strongly held opinion by several people on this thread.

There's the difference. I'm going on what I hear in folk clubs.

Perhaps I'm better asking **if you are of the opinion** that trad. songs and tunes have been edged out,

As I said, not in the folk clubs I go to.

why do you think this is so?

Couldn't say, but if it is in some places, then a comment you made a couple of days ago might be relevant -

Where there are no set rules, as would seem to be the case where clubs and sessions are being hijacked, why don't the traddies fight back with inspiring performances. It might move someone who performs mainly contemporary material to investigate traditional material more seriously - this has been the case with me.

Jack Campin

Are there any trad-only clubs or sessions? I don't think I've ever been to one.

You're probably right, Jack. We think of ourselves as pretty solidly traddy but our publicity material says "Our interest is mainly (but not exclusively) in British traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition." and that fairly accurately describes what we get.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:26 PM

Will,
"Jim, can I just dig a little deeper and….."
Sorry about the long pause, but I found your questions took a little time to think about - truth to tell,
I don't think I ever rationalised the way we worked, or even if there was a set method.
My first instinct was to say – like we used to about folk song, "I can't define what we did fully but I know what it is when we hear it", but that wouldn't be strictly true.
It needs to be remembered that The Singers Club was very much a 'policy' club, based mainly on presenting traditional song, so anything which was performed there had to fit in with this; that's what we came together for and that's what the audiences expected to hear.
MacColl, with others, (Charles Parker, for one) were entirely hooked on the idea that folksong drew its strength from the vernacular; the idioms and accents of the people who created the songs, and he/they believed that these could form the foundations of a new/continuing (depending whether you accept that the old one was dead) oral tradition.   
In my opinion, most of MacColls best songs were based on his and Parker's recorded actuality recorded for the Radio Ballads and other projects. Shoals of Herring drew directly from recordings of East Anglian fishermen, Sam Larner and Ronnie Balls; Freeborn Man, Thirty Foot Trailer, etc., from Minty Smith, Gordon Boswell and Belle Stewart; The Big Hewer and a number of other mining songs from, Jack Elliot etc. I've listened to these fairly extensively and know this to be the case. MacColl was constantly playing or urging us to listen to chunks of these recordings in view to our using them to make new songs and to familiarise ourselves with the different dialects and accents, and above all, the use of language.
The Critics Group was by no means the only ones doing this; I was serving my apprenticeship on the Liverpool Docks and can vividly remember how McGinn's 'Swan Necked Valve' leapt out of the speaker of my Dansette the first time I played 'The Iron Muse' – that was as much about my life as it was the composer's.
MacColl ran several song-writing classes, but there were no hard and fast rules to how the songs were written.
At one time a Singers Club member donated a first edition of Child's first compilation 'English and Scottish Ballads' to be given as a prize for the best new song. The winner was John Pole for his 'Punch and Judy'; hardly recognisable as being in a strictly conventional 'folk' style, but slap in London vernacular.
In order to promote new songs Peggy edited 'The New City Songers' made up from new songs from all over Britain, and later from the US and Australia. It ran into 20-odd editions and made available hundreds of new songs.

This is taking far too long and I don't really want to make it another marathon, so, if nobody objects, I'll take up the rest of your question later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:26 PM

I don't necessarily think that clubs are "being highjacked" as such. In the case of my local folk club I think it has been a mixture of 75% plus singer-songwriter doing their own songs and pop/rock/sing-songwriter cover versions since it started...

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 04:03 PM

Sounds about right - and I've been going most of that time. I think Les has been going since the beginning (November '02; I started going the following February).

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 09:52 AM

Ok, I will veer away from McColl is this debate, as Jim Carroll possibly met the guy a few more times than I did, and I only interviewed him once for the radio, but never did meet his mum....

Instead, I recall an old friend Tom Brown who entertained the clubs years ago with his Norfolk songs. if Tom was around today, I know how he would define a song as folk...

"Here's one I learned at my mother's knee."

On a related point, I remember a concert many years ago in London, Kris Kristofferson. he was introducing "Me & Bobby McGee." he said, "If it sounds like a country song, then I guess it is one..."

Quite.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 11:02 AM

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody!" - Bill Cosby

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 11:15 AM

Yes Willie, that's the point. Country is a style. Folk is a derivation.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 11:27 AM

I suspect that there is an eternal problem with moving goalposts. For the past couple of hundred years at least, we've come along, been enamoured by the repertoire of the working classes, tried to write in that style, then the next generation has come along, been horrified at what we've perpetrated on the "songs of the people", and started the process all over again.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 11:43 AM

Dave - yes and no. I know that an awful lot of "contemporary folk" is now showing its age, in a way that (paradoxically?) traditional song hardly ever does. But writing in the folk idiom can be done. I mentioned The Scarecrow earlier on - I'd defy anyone hearing that for the first time to peg it as a 38-year-old song.

Subject: RE: Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

Time will tell.