pdf music notation to sound!!

Subject: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

A friend was asking about programs that could play from abc or other notation and I pointed him to Melody Assistant (for working with abc or entering the dots).

On that site he spotted something new (at least since I'd looked at it very hard): "PDFtoMusic", which takes any pdf generated by music software and plays it for you.

They do note: "Because it only processes PDF files that have been exported from a score editor software, PDFtoMusic offers a unique reliability and outstanding results. Therefore, scanned sheet music cannot be managed by PDFtoMusic."

PDFtoMusic Pro "rebuilds the original score, and exports it for instance into MusicXML format, useable in most of the professional score editors." It also can't work with scores that have been scanned.

Someday someone will be able to deal with scanning music in...

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:50 PM

I'm sorry if I'm missing the point but why do this? If you have music in a standard readable format, why convert it to pdf only for someone to have to convert it back?

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:57 PM

When I was doing the Yorkshire Garland transcriptions to abc I was sent the scores in pdf format and I used this to generate MusicXML which I them (automatically) converted to abc for the website. The person setting up the scores in Sibelius couldn't export the xml but could generate the pdfs, so I went down this route.

The program (IIRC) was developed by Recordare, the people who developed MusicXML and the program takes advantage of the pdf/postscript commands to do a good job of deciphering the music unlike some of the general transcription program, for example SharpEye2 or similar programs being developed for scanning tablature mss, which are general OCR type programs and have to scan the images looking for likely features.

Mick

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 05:27 PM

Guest -- Apparently my friend had pdfs and abc downloaded from various tune sites and wanted to hear the tunes. He's a dance caller, and I don't believe he's a musician.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 05:30 PM

Mick, I wasn't aware of SharpEye 2; it makes sense that someone would have developed some scanning/reader technology for sheet music. Probably too pricey for my friend's purposes... but good to know it's out there.

~ B in T

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: KathyW
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:29 PM

I've tried experimenting with the free "demo" version of this music OCR software. It isn't terribly expensive if all you want is something to OCR sheet music and play it as a midi-- free if you can cope with the demo version that doesn't let you save anything.

http://www.musitek.com (pops)

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:27 AM

Does this mean that if I write a tune in Noteworthy, save it as PDF then send it to someone they can open and play it back?

L in C

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 10:21 AM

Les, I have Noteworthy, and it doesn't offer the chance to convert to PDF. At least, my version doesn't.   I can save as a Noteworthy file or a MIDI file.

Upthread, a guest asked, "why convert it to pdf only for someone to have to convert it back?"

Answer: Yes, anybody can look at a pdf and play it. But if I put the tune into a music format (I use MIDI), I can do musical things to it. For example, I can change the key, change the clef, change the timing, write new parts...

No other kind of program permits these things. And I do them regularly for my church music and for music with my friends. For example, I often change music from the recorder-friendly of F to the
guitar-friendly key of G. The flutes appreciate that too.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM

My postings seem to be vanishing into the ether. I commented last night, but it hasn't arrived. Here is a second comment which also didn't arrive a minute back... (good job I copied this time)

In theory, as long as the music programme produces it's PDF with a structure describing the positioning of note heads, stems, bar lines and such, PDFtoMusic ought to allow it to be played. It doesn't work if the PDF is equivalent to a photo of a page, and as such does not contain specific data describing what is or isn't a note.
That said, when I have tried using the software using tunes with sharps, they are displayed visually as they would, but the sound files produced sometimes play a Natural note rather than a Sharp (produces some interesting modal sounding melodies). Don't know if it depends on what has produced the PDF, of if it is a glitch in the programme, which may in future be fixed.
PDFtoMusic allows you to export in various formats including MusicXML, which can be used with other assorted programmes, for further editing of the music.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:37 PM

Les, I have Noteworthy, and it doesn't offer the chance to convert to PDF. At least, my version doesn't.   I can save as a Noteworthy file or a MIDI file.

Leeneia, You are right, Noteworthy does not have an option to convert directly to pdf. However it is possible to convert Noteworthy files to pdf using a third party pdf converter. These usually install as a "printer" which you can select as an alternative to your actual printer in the print dialog box.

You can also save your Noteworthy output as an image file (in nwc2 as an enhanced metafile) from the print preview. These can be imported into a word processor where it may also be possible to save as a pdf. I use this route to create both song and tune sheets and books by importing the metafiles into Open Office Write which is capable of exporting directly as pdf.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM

I have "NitroPDF," and it appears as a printer on my Noteworthy2 print menu. I tried it for the first time just now, and I was impressed with the PDF file it produced.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 05:01 AM

As I said in my previous post, for PDFtoMusic to work, your PDF needs to contain data on individual "elements" of the page - something it can recognise as a discrete vertical line with a "dot" at the bottom of it, long horizontal lines corresponding to a staff etc. It will not recognise a "photographic" image of a sheet of music.
Printing directly from a Noteworthy Score via a "PDF Virtual Printer" (I am currently using one called PDFCreator, but there are several free ones out there) may produce a file that PDFtoMusic can process. Converting to an image file, importing into Open Office and then converting to PDF may lose the information which PDFtoMusic needs. The "metafile" may keep the information there for the PDF, but if it behaves like bitmap art, it may be lost. The only way to find out would be to try it and see what happens.
I don't have Noteworthy, will try output from MuseScore (free score setting programme) via it's direct PDF export and compare with results by printing via PDFCreator. I wil report back.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM

Windows metafiles and advanced metafiles are raster images. The actual notation symbols are contained in a true type font file provided by noteworthy and installed in your computer when you install noteworthy. Thus the metafile contains information to place the lines - for the staves, notes and barlines and appropriate symbols from the font file. You have to have the font file installed on your computer for the metafile to display correctly as I found out when I went over to Linux.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:36 PM

Thanks for the info about pdf's. If the scanner part of my printer worked, I could scan music as a jpeg and use Power Point at our sessions. But it's easier to let my husband do the scanning at work.
(We used this method for our annual Three Kings party on January 1.)

But I was trying to explain to Guest that if you want to musicate - to really do something to the music, such as put it in a new key, then pdf's are no help.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:54 PM

> I have "NitroPDF," and it appears as a printer on my Noteworthy2 print menu. I tried it for the first time just now, and I was impressed with the PDF file it produced.

Nothing against Nitro apart from the fact that I've not used it, but I've had good results for a while now from the free version of PrimoPDF, http://www.primopdf.com/download.aspx.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 01:48 PM

To send a NoteWorthy file to someone to play, the best (free) way, PDFTOMusic being 199$ is the following :
- Export to NWCTXT from Noteworthy composer
- Send the NWCTXT file to http://nwc2musicxml.appspot.com/
- Send the MusicXML file to your colleague
- Your colleague can download MuseScore for free at http://musescore.org and play the musicXML file

Of course, a very shorter way is to use MuseScore in the first hand. MuseScore is totally free as in free speech and free beer.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 03:43 PM

Had a play with producing PDF files from MuseScore sheet music.
I had slightly mixed results.
Saving a file using the programme's "Save As" from the menu gives a good PDF for converting by PDFtoMusic to MusicXML format.
On the other hand, printing via external "Virtual Printer", PDFCreator also produces a PDF file that will convert to MusicXML. One of the two examples I tried produced the same "back-conversion" result as the "saved" PDF. The other one gave a slightly scrambled conversion, with two notes which should play one following the other being played simultaneously as counterpoint, and only taking the time allocated for one of them. Of course, once converted to MusicXML, the files could be re-edited by a suitable programme, but wouldn't be suitable for letting a stranger hear the tune as you intended.

As for PDFtoMusic and Noteworthy Composer. If the link provided by Guest above can give a direct and reliable conversion to MusicXML, I wouldn't bother with the PDF conversion route.

As same Guest points out, the PDFtoMusic Pro programme costs about 200 Dollars or Euros. That said, it works in Demo mode for the first page of a PDF score, so if you are dealing with short tunes, it may still get you a result without having to buy.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:17 PM

My way of sending someone a Noteworthy file to play is to print it out and fax it.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:26 PM

But for Noteworthy files there is a free viewer which will load up *.nwc files and let you play them and print them. All you would need is to send the files with an e-mail and maybe a link to the player download page.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:29 PM

Of course, that only works if the recipient is running Windoze.
I apologise for not considering the Linux or Mac operators before commenting.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM

I apologise for not considering the Linux or Mac operators before commenting.

Not a problem.

Both Noteworthy composer itself and the Noteworthy viewer will run in Linux using Wine. I normally edit my Noteworthy files in Linux these days.

If you want to play back Noteworthy files, you need to make sure you have a MIDI synth installed. Most people use Timidity++. I use Fluidsynth, though I have to remember to "turn it on" before calling Noteworthy :-)

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 08:49 AM

If you want to play back Noteworthy files, you need to make sure you have a MIDI synth installed. Most people use Timidity++. I use Fluidsynth, though I have to remember to "turn it on" before calling Noteworthy :-)

Just a slight clarification here. A software synth like Timidity (which would be my choice) or FluidSynth is only required for Noteworthy under Wine if the Linux system does not have a hardware synth which may be built into a soundcard or an other device.

I've just tried Noteworthy via an Edirol UM-2 to a Yamaha Keyboard and playback is fine. Perhaps if I played around looking at settings I could also get recording to work with this but as things stand, it tries but makes a hash of it.

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:21 AM

Becky: "Someday someone will be able to deal with scanning music in..."

You're a quarter of a century out of date

That should be easy to do now...

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:25 AM

PS also see Music OCR on Wikipedia which lists several software packages to do this, including two that are free.
I haven't tried any of them yet...

Subject: RE: pdf music notation to sound!!
From: pavane
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 02:22 PM

I tried one some years ago. Worked quite will with printed sheet music, (e.g. easy piano Carpenters songs) though it did need some editing asfterwards. but did very poorly when I tried a page from O'Niells.