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Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)

Mr Happy 15 Feb 10 - 09:19 AM
Tug the Cox 15 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM
Mr Happy 15 Feb 10 - 10:15 AM
Ruth Archer 15 Feb 10 - 10:18 AM
Will Fly 15 Feb 10 - 10:20 AM
Mr Happy 15 Feb 10 - 10:23 AM
johnadams 15 Feb 10 - 10:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 10 - 10:35 AM
Folkiedave 16 Feb 10 - 03:38 AM
GUEST 16 Feb 10 - 07:06 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 07:08 AM
SteveMansfield 16 Feb 10 - 07:10 AM
SteveMansfield 16 Feb 10 - 07:19 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM
johnadams 16 Feb 10 - 07:47 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 16 Feb 10 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Feb 10 - 11:07 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 11:19 AM
johnadams 16 Feb 10 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM
Howard Jones 16 Feb 10 - 03:19 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 05:05 PM
johnadams 16 Feb 10 - 06:21 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM
johnadams 16 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM
johnadams 16 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM
SteveMansfield 17 Feb 10 - 02:56 AM
Will Fly 17 Feb 10 - 06:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 10 - 06:25 AM
GUEST 17 Feb 10 - 06:26 AM
Flashmeister 17 Feb 10 - 06:31 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Feb 10 - 06:31 AM
Mr Happy 17 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Feb 10 - 06:40 AM
johnadams 17 Feb 10 - 06:47 AM
Dave Hanson 17 Feb 10 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Baz parkes 17 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 17 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 10 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Feb 10 - 09:56 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM
johnadams 17 Feb 10 - 10:26 AM
Artful Codger 17 Feb 10 - 06:23 PM
Richard Mellish 17 Feb 10 - 06:45 PM
Richard Mellish 17 Feb 10 - 06:58 PM
johnadams 17 Feb 10 - 07:12 PM
Artful Codger 17 Feb 10 - 07:21 PM
johnadams 17 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM
Ruth Archer 17 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Feb 10 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM
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Subject: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:19 AM

Here's a super tune that a local squeezer's been playing lately at our sesh.

I've also seen the Bacup Coconut Dancers perform to it at various fests.


X: 1
T:Bacup Coconut Dance
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:G
EFGF E2B2|EFGF E2B2|c2Ac B2G2|AG FE D4|
EFGF E2B2|EFGF E2B2|c2Ac B2G2| A2 F2 G4:|
|:G2BB G2B2|AGFG A2dd|G2BB G2B2|AGFE D2d2|
G2BB G2B2|AGFG A2dd|BdcB AcBA|G2F2G2F2:|

& here's some folks playing it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcOR3aK3ciQ


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM

I thought that tune was the Rochdale coconut dance. here's a clip of the best known bacup tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNbGYRSsV8g&feature=related


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:15 AM

Well that's what he called it, perhaps mistaken


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:18 AM

Spot on, Tug. the first tune is the Rochdale Coconut Dance. As there aren't any Rochdale Coconut Dancers, I don't know whether the music is actually used as anything except a session tune these days. The one you've posted is the one that's most commonly danced at Bacup, though the garland dance has a different tune.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:20 AM

Yes - the first clip posted was the Rochdale Coconut Dance. It's a regular at our sessions down here in Sussex.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:23 AM

Well apologies, perhaps an elf can change the thread title to

'Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance'


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: johnadams
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:28 AM

It's the Rochdale Coconut Dance which is, I think, of unknown provenance. As far as I know there's no evidence of a Rochdale Coconut Dance ever having existed - maybe others know better and if so, I'd be glad to hear.


There's a live rendition of it on our New Victory Band CD One More Dance And Then... We play Speed The Plough, The Rochdale and then the well known Bacup tune which is otherwise known as the Tip Tap Polka.

As many will know, there are several Bacup tunes, some of them being Coconut Dance tunes and some being Garland Dance tunes but all in the repertoire of the fabulous Bacup Britannia Coconut Dancers and their equally fabulous Stacksteads Silver Band.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:35 AM

Maybe the 'nutters travelled over the famine relief road into Rochdale for a vist at one time? If I remember rightly the road will lead you straight into Stacksteads but I am going off memory. Which is none too good:-( I do remember that the road goes over Rooley Moor where they used to hold naked races at one time. Why I should remember that I have no idea...

:D


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:38 AM

Random have also recorded it on their CD "Deviation"


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:06 AM

And just a few weeks ago I had a 20-something fiddle player insist that I was 'playing it wrong' and that it was written by Jon Boden ...


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:08 AM

Ha! - Rochdale is on an early S&B CD but I can't remember which one...


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:10 AM

Sorry, that last one was me.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:19 AM

The tune certainly appears on the Bellowhead e.p.omymous EP, which was where said fiddler had got it from when I investigated his assertion that JB had written it.

It also emerged that the bit I was playing 'wrong' was that I was omitting the 3/4 rhythm Bellowhead put into the minor B part.

I was very proud of myself for emerging from the conversation with good humour maintained on both sides, and even more proud that at no time did I hear myself uttering anything remotely approaching the dread phrase 'I was playing that tune before you were even *born*, young man' ...


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM

Ah, but Bellowhead has often used a lot of S&B back-catalogue. Having done a wee search, Rochdale Coconut Dance was on Through and Through, their debut CD, back in 2001.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:47 AM

The tune was popularised by The New Victory Band who learned it off Paul Roberts who got it off Vic Ellis. We never discovered where Vic got it from but I'd like to know.

As learned from Vic, the minor part was the B part but Dave Townsend published it with the two parts reversed and this can cause a bit of confusion at sessions when people play their particular version. People don't stop and the tune keeps going!

You can hear the New Victory Band version on my web site (hope the player works on your browser - it can be temperamental).


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:51 AM

Thought I ought to point out that there are several Bacup garland dances with different tunes.
For Easter Saturday the Stacksteads Silver Band plays for the Nutters and perhaps because of this the tunes are mainly in Bb and F, brass abnd keys. When the Nutters' own musicians are playing they use English concertinas (might be an occasional Duet, I'm not sure), but still in the same keys.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:07 AM

Mr. Happy, thanks very much for posting this delightful tune. I believe it will be good on my dulcimer, and my friends will like it to.

Note to those who do not know abc notation: you can use the Tune-o-tron at Concertina.net to turn the abc into sticks & dots.
=============
It's rather sad that you post a nifty tune and four people tell you you've got the title wrong. We all know tunes change titles rather often. I'm just going to call it 'the Cocoanut Dance.'


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:19 AM

Yes but leeneia, previous threads have shown that you are not particularly interested in things like research, or evidence. That's fine, but some people care about provenance. In this instance, the tune has not changed names. It was initially ascribed to an annual event which is still a living tradition, but it is, in fact, nothing to do with that event. Which is why several people (in a spirit of helpfulness) pointed out that it's a different tune.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:20 AM

What's sad about getting things right? Mr Happy had obviously been given duff information at the Boldwood workshop and he would doubtless get corrected at a session sometime in the future, especially as the tune is so well known. Might as well avoid possible embarrassment in the future, especially at the Easter Saturday session at Bacup.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM

I've been playing the tune at the piano. It's turning out very well for me. I believe it'll be a keeper.

Here are the chords I've worked out, in case anybody wants to play with friends. Each line below represents one measure.

Part A

Em
Em
Am (2 beats) G (two beats)
D
Em
Em
Am (2 beats) G (two beats)
D
G

Part B
G
D
G
D
Em
D
G8
E8 (I'm experimenting with F#'s here.)
D8

The 8's are my personal terminology. For example, G8 means 'play G NOTES, not G CHORDS.' You can play them high or low, quick or low or as a drone, but they are all G's. Doing this in the accompaniment adds interest and may avoid sticky wickets.

I play a Part A to end it.

As for its provenance, I'd be interested in who wrote it and when and for what.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:19 PM

Johnny, thanks for confirming that the tune originally started with the major part. That's how I'd always played it (probably learned form NVB), and how we recorded it with the Electropathics, wandering through several keys in the process. However whenever I come across it in sessions now it seems to start with the minor. I'm relieved to find I've been playing it right and everyone else is wrong!

You can here the Electropathics' version here


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:05 PM

Johnny: I think I may be able to help. There is great advantage to living with a folkie scholar, and his library! When I asked if he could shed some light, he went to the shelf and immediately pulled down the Journal of the English Folk Dance Society from 1927 (how does he DO that?!). It contains an article written by Anne Gilchrist entitled "The Lancashire Rush-Cart and Morris-Dance". This is a transcript of the relevant bit:

"Dr Henry Brierly, a native of Rochdale, sends me the tune of a 'Coco-nut Dance' which accompanied the Rochdale rush-cart in the 'fifties [she is referring to the 1850s]. The dancers held half a coco-nut shell in each hand, a half-shell also being strapped to each knee, and clapped the shells rhythmically to this unvarying tune, played by the band. The dance was stationary, but according to his recollection the coco-nut dancers preceded the drawing-team of young men, 'prancing' in the procession. The tune has a general resemblance to Mr Cecil Sharp's traditional versions of 'Country Gardens' and 'Hunt the Squirrel'. I have seen no other record of this dance."

It goes on to transcribe the music and it does indeed start with the major part.




Mr S also wanted me to add as a postscript that the Britannia (Bacup) Nutters play two tunes for the nut dance, one of which is only played by the concertina players rather than the brass band. The concertinas don't actually play on the streets on Easter Saturday, but sometimes accompany them when they dance in the pubs.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:21 PM

Excellent! A mystery solved after all these years. Give his lordship an extra bun for supper!

It seems that I'm one of the few people in our neck of the woods who knows the other nut dance tune, having followed the nutters down the Rossendale Road on numerous occasions and learned it. It's a shame 'cos it's a good tune. I wondered if it was another two parts to the Tip Top polka or indeed a separate tune altogether.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

He ate seven pancakes - is that enough of a reward?


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

Better not give him a bun then. He'll have to be watching his waistline now he's slowed down.

Here's the abc for Rochdale and the extended Bacup if anybody's interested.

X:1
T:Rochdale Coconut Dance
M:4/4
L:1/8
H:Used for a stationary coconut dance during the Rochdale Rushcart procession in the mid 19thC
B:JEFDS-1927 Gilchrist,A. The Lancashire Rush-Cart and Morris-Dance
K:G
G2BB G2B2|AGFG A2dd|G2BB G2B2|AGFE D2d2|
G2BB G2B2|AGFG A2dd|BdcB AcBA|G2F2G2F2:|
|:EFGF E2B2|EFGF E2B2|c2Ac B2G2|AG FE D4|
EFGF E2B2|EFGF E2B2|c2Ac B2G2| A2 F2 G4:|

X:2
T:Bacup Coconut Dance (4 parts)
M:4/4
L:1/8
H:Used by the Bacup Britannia Coconut Dancers for their Nut Dance, both processional and stationary versions.
K:G
Bc| d2d2d2e2| B2B2B2GA| B2B2B2d2|A6 AB|
c2c2c2e2|A2A2A2 AB|cB AG F2d2|1)G6 :|2)G6 ef|
|:g2e2 edef|g2d2d2 GA|B2B2A2G2|e2d2d2ef|
g2e2ed ef|g2d2d2 AB| cBAG F2d2|1)G6 ef:|2)G8|
|:B_B=B2 d_d=d2|c2e2 e_e =e2|A2A2 c2c2|Bc de d4|
B_B=B2 d_d=d2|c2e2 e_e=e2| d2A2 AcBA|G8:|
K:D
A2FG A2Bc| d2d2f4| g2e2 e_e=e2|f2d2 d_d=d2|
A2FG A2Bc| d2d2f4| g2e2 egfe|d6:|


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Bacup Coconut Dance
From: johnadams
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM

And thanks to Mr Happy for raising the topic. It's taken 3 decades to get the answer to my question about the Rochdale tune. Now I'm Mr Happy too.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:56 AM

And I'm Mr Happy 3, because I've also wondered where the tune came from (and spent a few years working in Rochdale to boot).

An in-house library of the complete JEFDS must be a wonderful thing to have in these circumstances (assuming, of course, Ruth doesn't actually just live in the one of the darker corners of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library :) )


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:07 AM

Interesting about the swap of the A and B parts. I was trying out the major, followed by the minor, this morning. It sounded fine. I just wondered whether there's something about playing the major theme as the second theme that gives the tune a lift - particularly at the end. That may perhaps have contributed to the crossover in some areas.

It's a bit like a 3-tune set that our band plays: 1 - Brothers In York (Em); 2 - Bridge Of Allan (D); 3 - Star Above The Garter (G)

The middle tune, Bridge Of Allan, is very low key in style and is almost a filler between the other two. However, when we swing into Star Above The Garter, the whole set lifts right up - I couldn't imagine the set in any other order. So Bridge Of Allan is a very effective contrast.

Just a pensée...


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:25 AM

The concertinas don't actually play on the streets on Easter Saturday, but sometimes accompany them when they dance in the pubs.

Just in the interests of completeness I need to qualify that with not JUST when they dance in pubs. I have video footage of the dance outside an old folks home where the concertinas accompany the dancers. Not in the streets, I know, but not in a pub either.

Pedantic is my middle name:-)

DPeG


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:26 AM

I know what you mean about giving the tune a lift, but the change of key from D, whether major or minor, to G has that effect - plus Star above the Garter is a cracking tune. My band plays it with the Graemsay Jig - a nice steady, precise tune in D maj, and then when we change into SATG in G the effect is electrifying.

I'd always played Rochdale starting with the major part and perhaps that's it sounds more "right" to me. It seems to me that with major/minor tunes the more usual pattern is to start with the major, but no doubt people will now leap in with plenty of examples of the opposite.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Flashmeister
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:31 AM

Ah so pleased I stumbled across this - been wondering of the provenance of this tune ever since we had a fantastic 3 squeezebox rendition played at a session and it subsequently got stuck in my head for about 3 months!! Been trying to figure it out in British fingerstyle ever since but been thwarted - v helpful on the tune and chords. thank you.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:31 AM

sfmans: happily it's rather more comfy here than in the VWML. We have sofas, for a start. Though I'd happily take possession of some of those lovely big bookcases they've got down there, if Malcolm ever decides to pop down to Ikea for a bit of a Changing Rooms-style makeover...


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM

...............I'm Spartacus!Mr Happy!!


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:40 AM

And Johnny - I could probably photocopy the music for the next time I see you, so you can see to what extent it has changed in the past 80 years!


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: johnadams
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:47 AM

Yes please Ms Archer.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:10 AM

The Brittania Coconut Dancers tune ' Clow Bank ' is in Tony Sullivans tune book, ' English and Scottish Tunes '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: GUEST,Baz parkes
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM

So which one is the one I've heard them call "Th'owd Crash"...or is that what they call one of the dances?

Baz


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

A few points of clarification.

The nutters are accompanied by the concertina players on Easter Saturday when the dancers split into 2 groups and tour the pubs to do the nut dance. Some of those performances are in the market or at an old people's home, and may therefore be outside. The tina players accompany one of the groups, the band the other. This is a relatively recent feature - the band used to split into 2 groups. The tina players perform at other engagements during the year as well.

The two tunes used by the Britannia Coconut Dancers for the nut dance are Tip Toe Polka and Shooting Star. The latter is only played by the concertina players. Tip Toe Polka is sometimes inaccurately called by others the Tip Top Polka or Tip Tap Polka. Clow (or Clough) Bang (not Bank) is an alternative name for the Tip Toe Polka.
Thow'd Clash (or is it Crash or Cash?) is - according to the nutters' website - an alternative name for the nut dance. The website calls it Thow'd Cash, but this must be a mistype I think. I know about this name, but don't have any reference to verify its use close at hand!

Incidentally, the Nutters are fiercely possessive about their dances and, perhaps until recently, about the tunes. When Maud Karpeles noted the dances, an agreement was drawn up with the EFDSS with the latter agreeing never to teach the dances. The dancers then and since have insisted that the dances and tunes are copyrighted to them. On one occasion, the tina players kept switching between tunes to stop an audience member from accurately notating the tune. As one old Coconutter said to his team mates, "keep the dance going. If you do not, the people in the South will take hold of it."

See The Tunstead Mill Nutters of Rossendale, Lancashire in Folk Music Journal 1986 and
'In a Word we are Unique': Ownership and Control in an English dance custom in Step Change: New Views on traditional dance, ed Georgina Boyes, 2001.
Both articles by Theresa Buckland.

Derek


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:21 AM

I think - just think - I have vids of part of the processional plus the static featuring both band and 'tina players seperately (market and old folks home respectively) somewhere on disk. If anyone is interested I can post them to my ftp site for download. I think (again) Sorry to be so vague but the old memory isn't what it erm, er...

PM me if you want me to delve a bit deeper. Otherwise I can just go back to sleep.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:56 AM

Hello, John Adams. Thank you for posting the second tune. The chromatic parts in the third section are unusual and interesting.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM

Of course, the Bacup tune(s) are best appreciated alongside the dance, Leeneia. Bacup is a living tradition, and separating the tunes from the dances is like serving bread without dripping. Or pie without peas. Or pancakes without lemon and sugar.

:)

Bacup Coconut Dance


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: johnadams
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:26 AM

GUEST,leeneia

Glad you like it. I'm assuming that the first to parts are Tip Toe Polka and the second two Shooting Star.

Thanks for the correction Derek. I was wondering why my download of Tip Top Polka from the American Memory archive site bore no relation to the Bacup tune.

In fact there are two Tip Toe Polkas. The one that probably matches the Bacup tune is in the Australian National Library and not accessible on line. That was composed by Ezra Read. Another by William Wolsieffer doesn't appear to match.

I can't locate Shooting Star anywhere yet but it's problematic search term, bringing up lots of other things.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:23 PM

Have you tried limiting the web search to tune sites like "The Session" and "Fiddler's Companion"?


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:45 PM

I spent a large part of Easter Saturday 1968 in Bacup, following the dancers of course. After that you never forget the tune.

I noticed years ago that the tune as commonly played in sessions is slightly different -- no surprise there, folk process and all that. The most striking difference is in the B-part, bar 4, first note. In my head, it's the same as the next two notes and so it is on the video, a link to which was also posted above. In the ABC posting from John, and on the track that can be heard on his website, the first note is one higher than the next two. (I mention no note names because of course that depends on the chosen key: G in the ABC, and E-flat on the video.)

As for the second part posted by John: when we used it for Flowers of May we knew it as the Tip Top Hornpipe (while recognising that it clearly isn't a hornpipe). At some point in its passage to us the accidentals had been ironed out and some other slight differences had crept in. I now need to try playing the version with the accidentals.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:58 PM

PS. Just tried that tune. In the middle of the B-part (or the D-part if you regard the whole lot as a single tune) there's a D-flat (presuming that Tune-O-Tron correctly converted the ABC). For most practical purposes, D-flat is the same as C-sharp, which is already in the key signature for that part. Huh?

Richard


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: johnadams
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:12 PM

Richard...

Operator error!

Artful Codger...

Thanks but I'm searching for 19th century sheet music archives rather than folkie sources, hoping to find the original published tune.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:21 PM

Ahem, the tune sites usually have historical info, which may include composers or the works in which such tunes were collected and published. Surely that would assist you in your search, would it not?


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: johnadams
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

Richard,

The higher note in B -bar 4 crept into the New Victory Band's version during the early 1980s - part of the folk process as you suggest.

The accidentals in the D music are as I recall hearing the tune but I can give no guarantees that they have not been subject to the folk process also as I didn't record the tune and play it back later - I took it away in my head with all that entails.

However, I'm intending to be at Bacup this Easter and will check it out if I get to hear the concertina band.

In the meantime I'm going to order the sheet music from the Australian National Library and see what, if anything, the Bacup musicians have done to the original, not that it will change the way we play it - just for interest.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM

We're also at Bacup, as usual. See you there, Johnny - I'll bring a copy of the Rochdale music.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM

The D-flat-C# thing is not actually a mistake. It's a natural way to convey how to play that chromatic. By the time one gets there, one has slipped a finger down one-half step for a saucy eighth note and bopped back up SEVEN TIMES. Writing C# as D-flat preserves that pattern for the eighth time and is consistent.
=========
Derek S, thanks for the info on the team's feelings about their tunes. If I ever get to Bacup, this thread shall remain a dark secret.

Even if I have a beer or two, I shall not say, "I see. You went to all the trouble of stealing it from a hapless composer and now you don't want anybody to steal it from you. Perfectly natural."
=========
I played the Rochdale dance on the piano last night. The DH liked it a lot, so thanks again, Mr. Happy.

Thanks to a harper friend, I play a certain amount of Welsh music. I bet that if you could trace that tune far enough, it would prove to be Welsh. I know 3-4 Welsh harp tunes that have that sprightly rhythm in a minor key.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 11:25 AM

leeneia, it's about certain communities having their own unique traditions, and not necessarily wanting to "lose" those traditions to people who might not understand or respect them, or who might turn them into something else.

Take the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance. If you see what's been done to it when it's performed in other places in the UK, or in America, you will see that it deviates pretty substantially from the actual tradition (which belongs to the people of Abbots Bromley, and is a living tradition). I would argue that, when a version of the dance is performed in these other contexts, and completely differently from how it is performed in Abbots Bromley, it's no longer the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance. But there are people who have never seen the real thing, who dance a version of it that they've picked up elsewhere, and they tell other people (who aren't to know any better) that what they are seeing is Abbots Bromley.

Similarly, Bampton Morris has had people tell them that the way they do their steps is "wrong", because they are not precisely as Sharp noted them a century ago. But the Bampton dance tradtition belongs to that community. However they choose to dance the dances surely becomes the right way, by default. It's their tradition.

The Bacup Nutters were protective of their tradition because they did not want to see it become "folked up" (my term, not theirs), as so many of these formerly local traditions have been. Whether you agree with them or not, it's their tradition and their point of view deserves respect. And it keeps the tradition special.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Rochdale Coconut Dance (was:Bacup)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

Rest assured, the tunes are safe with me.

I shall be like those wealthy malefactors who buy stolen artworks, hide them in the depths of the mansion and gloat over them in solitude.


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