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BS: the sayings of elton john

The Sandman 20 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM
Smedley 20 Feb 10 - 07:08 AM
Acorn4 20 Feb 10 - 07:16 AM
The Sandman 20 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM
Jack Campin 20 Feb 10 - 07:47 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Feb 10 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 08:18 AM
Jack Campin 20 Feb 10 - 08:28 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 08:46 AM
Paul Burke 20 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 20 Feb 10 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,999 20 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Feb 10 - 12:22 PM
The Sandman 20 Feb 10 - 12:32 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 20 Feb 10 - 12:39 PM
Simon G 20 Feb 10 - 12:52 PM
mousethief 20 Feb 10 - 01:01 PM
frogprince 20 Feb 10 - 03:15 PM
frogprince 20 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,999 20 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM
maeve 20 Feb 10 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,999 20 Feb 10 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,999 20 Feb 10 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,David E. 20 Feb 10 - 04:17 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Feb 10 - 04:34 PM
Wesley S 20 Feb 10 - 04:34 PM
Acorn4 21 Feb 10 - 05:16 AM
The Sandman 21 Feb 10 - 06:23 AM
Richard Bridge 21 Feb 10 - 08:25 AM
Amos 21 Feb 10 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,David E. 21 Feb 10 - 11:42 AM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 10 - 12:02 PM
Smedley 21 Feb 10 - 12:06 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM
katlaughing 21 Feb 10 - 12:59 PM
michaelr 22 Feb 10 - 12:24 AM
mousethief 22 Feb 10 - 12:32 AM
michaelr 22 Feb 10 - 01:04 AM
Georgiansilver 22 Feb 10 - 02:34 AM
mauvepink 22 Feb 10 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 22 Feb 10 - 04:41 AM
Smedley 22 Feb 10 - 04:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Feb 10 - 07:19 AM
Smedley 22 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM
The Sandman 22 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM
Ed T 22 Feb 10 - 10:18 PM
Little Hawk 22 Feb 10 - 11:03 PM
katlaughing 22 Feb 10 - 11:40 PM
michaelr 23 Feb 10 - 01:54 AM
Smedley 23 Feb 10 - 03:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Feb 10 - 09:53 AM
Little Hawk 23 Feb 10 - 10:14 AM
mousethief 23 Feb 10 - 11:38 AM
Smedley 23 Feb 10 - 12:16 PM
Little Hawk 23 Feb 10 - 12:28 PM
Donuel 23 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM
Little Hawk 23 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

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Subject: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM

I think his latest speech is a disgrace.His remarks about Jesus reveal he is the Devil incognito.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Smedley
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:08 AM

If it's true, as they proverbially say, that the Devil has all the best tunes, then I don't think Elton is in the running.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:16 AM

I don't think his speech is a disgrace, he's just made himself look an idiot!


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM

yes, he is an idiot and I wouldnt bother learning any of his songs either.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:47 AM

I assume you're talking about his suggestion that Jesus was gay. Which is hardly a new idea and does not malign Jesus in any way, so why get uptight about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:47 AM

They're definitely not Trad.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM

It is not the first time it has been suggested though that Jesus was gay.

I seem to remember many years ago the editor of a magazine got charged with blasphemy, fined £500 and had a nine month jail sentence imposed (that was supended tp 18 months).

Google reveals Dennis Lemon, the then editor of Gay News, took the brunt for Gay News (which was also fined £1000) in July 1977, for blasphemous libel after it published James Kirkup's poem, The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name.

Could Jesus have been gay? I actually doubt it very much. Considering how much attention has been given the man and they way he was followed by so many, no way could it have been hidden. He would likely not have reached the cross had it been found he was gay. They would have stoned him to death long before no doubt. The joke that he hung out with 12 men all the time gives no weight at all to the arguments. He also loved women for sure. So many kinds of love but all with the same basic emotion.

On the theoretical aspects of Jesus being gay I have no problems at all. If he had been it makes no difference at all to his message of love and forgiveness. Because some see being gay as a sin then Jesus could not be gay because he was perfect... but that is only if you believe it to be a sin. I don't. Jesus never spoke out against gay people ever. He really did love all men... and women. "Love each other as I have loved you"... "Greater love has no man than he would lay down and die for his friend". Many many people have laid down and died for their friends. It does not make them gay.

Was Elton John courting controversy? Does he have need to? I suppose he just expressed hos own thoughts/opinions. No way could he say it and it be ingnored.

As for his songs. I think he produced the best stuff when he worked with Bernie Taupin. Some of the songs back then were heartbreakers. Of late the only one that really hit me was "Candle in the Wind". The man does have talent. It may not be folk but it is talent nonetheless.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM

I forgot to mention too that the poem "The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name" is still illegal to publish in the UK apparently. Having read it I am hardly surprised. I consider I have an open mind but I find it offensive personally. I am surprised it got past the pornography laws back then with Mary Whitehouse around and such like.

I found myself shocked when reading it and am sorry I brought up the subject of the trial.

Some things really do need leaving in the past. No wonder it caused such upset back then.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:18 AM

Backwoodsman... maybe people will be singing them at a folk club near you 100 years from now. It's remarkable what time does to some somgs and their resurfacing years on.

"Suicide" has brilliant lyrics, as does "My high flying bird", and Daniel could be folkie with a bit of work ;-)

Best not push the envelope too much though lol

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:28 AM

It was not made illegal in the UK - it was illegal in England and Wales. There is no offence in Scots law comparable to the English one of "blasphemous libel", and Gay Scotland magazine reprinted the poem while the English court case was going on. They had no trouble from it. (It probably helped that they had some experienced lawyers on their editorial board).

I think I may have reposted the poem to Usenet at the time. I was in Scotland, the news server I used then was in London, and the NNTP protocol means that Usenet postings aren't really anywhere in particular.

I don't think Kirkup was making a historical claim - it was simply an idea that worked as a framework for his poem. He's spent most of his life in Japan and I doubt if Shinto is that bothered about Christian blasphemies. If he'd really wanted to stir it, he'd have rewritten it to be about the Emperor.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:46 AM

Thanks for that insight Jack Campin. I had no idea and keep forgetting the UK is now split up in so many ways.

What you raise is quite true, of course, as it is all a matter of perspective. Whilst I am basically agnostic I have Christian leanings emotionally. That is why the poem offends me personally. But, all that said, other authors have published things which, at the time, were considered terrible and jailworthy, but are now considered to be great literature. Indeed, was it not "The love that dare not speaks its name" that was used at Oscar Wilde's court case and taken from Tennyson's "Two Lovers". Wilde certainly was discriminated against.

You have made me re-examine my viewpoint. Thanks.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

I'm sure Mr. John will be horribly mortified that Mr. Miles refuses to sing his songs, and will repent of his suggestion that if Jesus existed, and was human, he might have had human feelings towards other humans.

In the meantime, I'm sure that Archbishop Williams will issue the requisite proclamation that Mr. John will be henceforth excommunicate, will be refused the sacraments, will be buried in unhallowed ground when he dies, and will be denied access to Church of England choirboys.

I'm also sure that Mr. Miles will refuse to sing any of Leon Rosselson's songs, because he suggested that Judas could have been a better role model than Jesus, though he did not suggest that either of them was homosexual.

Let us campaign together to reintroduce the death penalty for blasphemy, and for all who suggest that Jesus could have been other than white, bearded, blue- eyed and begowned.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 12:00 PM

Must admit, it made sense to me. A Jewish man, unmarried and supposedly celibate would (so I believe) have been highly unusual in Jesus' day.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

It's likely that the wedding at Cana was Jesus' wedding. He did after all pour the wine, and that, in Jewish weddings is a task usually performed by the groom. Also, it was here he (supposedly) turned the water into wine.

The notion of either gayness or bisexuality comes from the Gnostic Bible (I think the Book of Thomas). There is no indication in the Old or New Testaments that he was celibate (that I'm aware of).


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 12:22 PM

It was late afternoon, and I was sat at the dining room table, battling with my homework.   As ever, I gave up and started to watch the birds in the front garden, wishing I could be like them, free to fly away, not stuck indoors, learning things I had no interest in..

Suddenly, from my little transistor, which was sat next to me, on the windowsill....a piano started up, and my head began to spin!

I turned the sound up as high it would go...and his voice kicked in...

"It's a little bit funny, this feeling inside..."
"If I was a sculptor, but then again, no. Or a man who makes potions in a travelling show..."

And my homework faded right away, as images of love began to fill my head...of a man so desperately in love with this woman, writing her this wonderful song...singing it to her as gentle tears trickled down....

And as Elton 'sat on the roof and kicked off the moss' I sat there knowing that I was hearing something very special....

It was the first time that particular Radio 1 DJ had played his song....and I was hooked from that moment on....



I could have gone to the same school as Elton, Pinner Grammar (yes, I DID pass my 11+) but wanted to be with my brother, so ended up in the local equivalent of Fenn Street. Ho hum... :0)


Jesus loved people, that's all that matters. I don't care if folks are gay or not, so long as folks are loved.

I guess Jesus may well feel the same..

Your Song



And that saddest song I ever heard him sing was his own...when he sang it at Princess Diana's funeral, don't know how he got through that one, especially after having lost her so soon after another of his best friends...but he managed it, for her.

Goodbye England's Rose


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 12:32 PM

Jesus was also supposed to have had a relationship with Mary Magdalene.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 12:39 PM

"when he sang it at Princess Diana's funeral,"

I found Candle in the Wind a charming song for Monroe. But then later rededicating it to another dead woman I found really gross. Like why buy real flowers for a funeral when you can buy reusable plastic ones instead? Or giving the new girlfriend the same engagement ring you gave to the last one. Yucky!


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Simon G
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 12:52 PM

The upsetting part of Elton John's comments for me is that he thought Jesus was just a highly intelligent man entreating us to love each other. We do need to love each other but we all know this is beyond us.

Jesus bore a message much more vital than a simple platitude for he was an is God. His message was that we need to sort out our relationship with God - love the Lord your God with all your heart and only then are we able to start taking on the board the second half of the message - to love our neighbour as ourselves.

Was Jesus sexually attracted to anyone? In the light of his vital message and the way he acted it out it is just immaterial.

Is Elton John the devil incarnate, of course not. He is just one of God's mixed up kids. God loves him a yearns for him to accept his redemption and heal his relationship with God. We should love him as well, Elton is out neighbour.

If we really want to know who Jesus is then we can have the best historical record of anyone before the age of the printed word in the Gospels, read them and decide for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 01:01 PM

Elton John was a great songwriter. (He's been a bit off the last few years, imho.) He's a pretty good rock pianist and a not-half-bad vocalist.

He's not somebody I go to for theological insight. Why do people think somebody's opinion about any random subject matters more because they're famous for something entirely different?

My opinion about Jesus matters just as much as Elton John's. Maybe more: I've at least taken a University class on the New Testament; Elton may have less background learning for all I know.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:15 PM

"The notion of either gayness or bisexuality comes from the Gnostic Bible (I think the Book of Thomas). There is no indication in the Old or New Testaments that he was celibate (that I'm aware of)." (999)

I've read only bits from the Book of Thomas or other Gnostic books, so I'll assume that you're correct as to those claims coming primarily from there. (Not that much of an assumption; I've seen enough of your comments on such matters to know that there's nothing wrong with your reading comprehension).

There is just one New Testament verse that gets brought up: John 20:21. "Peter turned and saw following them the disciple whom Jesus loved, who had lain close to his breast at the supper..." That is proof positive, for those who want it to be badly enough. Those
who find any question about Jesus' orientation abhorant will exposit themselves crosseyed to "prove" it's impossible that there could be any such implication there. I wouldn't be a nickle either way.

As to Jesus and celibacy, you're entirely correct; the conviction that Jesus was celibate is based on the difficulties for traditional theology if he wasn't, not on anything whatever in the Bible.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM

I wouldn't bet a nickle...


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM

Thanks, Dean.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: maeve
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:49 PM

Friend 999- I see in my bible that it was the servants who served the wine that Jesus had made from the jars of water; not Jesus. That might change the interpretation ("It's likely that the wedding at Cana was Jesus' wedding. He did after all pour the wine").

Regards,
maeve


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:52 PM

Thanks, Maeve. My mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:01 PM

Dear Friend Maeve:

John 2, 9-10

Trust things are good.

When Jesus' mother told him to supply the wine, it always 'felt' to me that she was the hostess rather than an invited guest.

Old age and aluminium jus' don't go together.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:17 PM

My first thought on Elton's comment was that it's a good thing he didn't say that about Mohammed.

David E.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:34 PM

Facts about Candle in the Wind

Well, Crow Sister, I'd say that he possibly chose that song because Diana identified with the story, particularly the line "..even when you died, the press still hounded you..."

He only had a short time to write it anyway, between her death and the funeral, and I think he did a pretty good job, because he lost two very dear friends in a matter of weeks..

And now, back to Jesus... :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:34 PM

Why on earth would anyone care about what Elton John - or John Meyer for that matter - had to say about anything? What possible effect does Elton Johns viewpoints have on your life?


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:16 AM

Richard Shindell - Ballad of Mary Magdalene.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:23 AM

Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,David E. - PM
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:17 PM

My first thought on Elton's comment was that it's a good thing he didn't say that about Mohammed.

David E.
Elton would be in danger of his life.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:25 AM

I think Elton John's or anyone else's speculation about the sex life or otherwise of Jesus (if he actually existed) is probably even less worthy of condemnation than speculation about the sex life of Tiger Woods. If Jesus has a current importance it lies in the beliefs he expressed, and those seem to have been far far from the tenets of organised Christianity today. I suppose the God-botherers will get their knickers in a twist. We will then have to decide whether that matters more or less than Mad Lizzie getting hers in one or more twists.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:32 AM

Elton did a beautiful job singing through his own tears at that funeral. It is touching to watch. Thanks for the link.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:42 AM

"...Jesus (if he actually existed)..."

I think we would be hard pressed to find a credible historian who would deny that Jesus existed, it's what we choose to believe about him that is what people debate. As for the tenets of organized Christianity, I am supposing what you mean is those who claim to be Christians. Like I tell my son, I can wear a Los Angeles Lakers uniform, but it doesn't make me a basketball player. Christianity is subject to the same rules in popular media as anything else: Pains in the ass are news-worthy but the vast majority of good people going about their lives are ignored.

As for "Candle In the Wind"... nice song, but didn't Bernie Taupin write that back in the seventies?

David E.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 12:02 PM

It's my opinion that Jesus was very likely married in a perfectly conventional fashion (to Mary Magdalene)....that Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute at all, but a normally respectable woman of her day, and an important partner in his work...and that they had children.

I think Elton John has gone off on a tangent of his own wishful thinking, based on his acceptance of the old accounts of Jesus in the existing Christian Bible which he has decided to take as literal fact. Those accounts are hardly reliable, they were fashioned to suit a certain political agenda that the church fathers had in mind at the time, and I believe it far more likely that Jesus was a normal heterosexual married Jewish rabbi with a normal family life than the rather odd and other-worldy celibate figure he has been portrayed as by the Christian hierarchy since some time after his death. They didn't want a real man...they wanted a "god-man" to hypnotize the masses with, so they manufactured one.

Therefore, I don't really give a tiddly what Elton John says about Jesus being gay, because I think he's a couple of teacups shy of having any idea what he's really talking about... ;-)

He's just doing some convenient gay advocacy, that's all, because that's an agenda that he identifies with. Like the Christian fathers who wrote and censored the books in the Bible, he has re-shaped Jesus the man to conveniently fit his own political agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Smedley
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 12:06 PM

I don't think Jesus could have been gay. Look at his *HAIR*.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 12:59 PM

I have a request. When one of us starts a thread, PLEASE include some info on what you are talking about, i.e. a link to the relevant news, etc. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 12:24 AM

Well, he certainly looked gay.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 12:32 AM

I lost my photograph of Jesus. Can you send me a copy of yours?

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 01:04 AM

http://media.photobucket.com/image/jesus%20christ/xxDANCErawrDANCExx/Jesus_Christ.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 02:34 AM

Anyone who understands why Jesus lived and died will know He could not have been gay or married......


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: mauvepink
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 03:51 AM

Personally I have no problem with the idea that he could be gay or have been married. He surely had many human traits. It changes not a jot of the message he came to give, delivered, and lived for.

The onus is on whether we believe all that is written about him and told of what he said. Some calls for special pleading. Some calls for an extended knowledge of the times. Some calls for a willingness to want to believe (faith). I have no trouble with any of this either though, in reality, it does cause me trouble trying to wend my way to finding the truth for me.

Jesus loved all men and women. Jesus message was one of love. THAT is what is most important. Any diversions away from that does not change a thing if one believes.

This storm in a teacup will blow over. There seems more of a historical record of what Jesus said than anything of what Elton John has said. Elton John was likely giving his take on how he sees it all. WE can all be guilty of that at times but will not make the headlines in so doing

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 04:41 AM

Jesus gay?

How many gay chippies do you know?


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 04:43 AM

Jesus gay?

How many gay chippies do you know?

-----------------------------

Not as many as I'd like to......................


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 07:19 AM

I believe ol' Reggie recycled the song again for Mother Theresa's funeral.

'Sandal in the bin...'

:D (eG)


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Smedley
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM

Not a new joke, DeG, but still a very funny one.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM

anyone who changes their name to Elton Hercules John must have a screw loose,which might explain his take on jesus,his agenda,and his view of life.
he had the misfortune to be born near Watford and appears to be one of a tiny few who support Watford Football club[this requires a Herculean spirit of optimism,a bit like being a member of the flat earth society].
we should indeed feel sorry for this deluded individual,who appears to have an evangelical zeal to convert us all to homosexuality.
I believe Homosexuals should be treated with tolerance,allowed to marry etc ,and should not be persecuted,but I find this sort of agenda from Elton hercules john,unnecessary and objectionable and idiotic


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 10:18 PM

Jesus gay!

Not so.

If he were so, he would have chosen to wear louboutins, not grungy brown sandals.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 11:03 PM

The only significant person in the New Testament who strikes me as being a reasonably likely candidate for being gay is Paul (a/k/a Saule of Tarsus). He wrote some very odd stuff indeed when he was making comments about women.

Elton John should look into that. ;-) It strikes me as a far more promising line of speculation than his assertions about Jesus.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 11:40 PM

Well said, mauvepink!


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:54 AM

"A historical record of what Jesus said"???

I'd like to see that history book.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Smedley
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:38 AM

Little Hawk, sadly your speculation falls apart on the fact that Paul's views (as least as purveyed in that rollicking page-turner The Bible) are vehemently homophobic (in today's terminology) and a lot of today's anti-gay fundamentalists fall greedily upon his words like starving men on a T-bone steak.

You might also, if I may pass on a scintilla of advice, think about your implication that misogyny and homosexuality are obvious partners.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:53 AM

But surely his writings being 'vehemently homophobic' is yet another indicator is it not? As well as the misogyny? I have not yet met a gay misogynist so surely if he was trying to disguise the fact that he was gay he would have behaved in just the way he did.

I'll stop now in case Dan Brown gets any ideas...

:D (eG)


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:14 AM

You're right that Paul is homophobic too. That could be driven by his own guilt!!! ;-) You see, he was actually homosexual...but hiding in the closet. This explains both his blatant misogyny AND his apparent homophobia...

And if you take any of the above very seriously, you will be going as far astray as if you imagine that I think misogyny and homosexuality are obvious partners. I don't. I'm merely engaging in a little gentle humorous satire of Elton John's public musings about Jesus, that's all.

I have known one gay men who was quite obviously misogynistic...and it seemed to be based on the fact that he hated his mother...rather than that he was gay...but that's just one man. I don't take it as indicating anything about an entire demographic of people. It was his own individual issue, that's all.

Paul's writings contain some very odd stuff about both men and women...and that leads me to think Paul may have been a rather odd fellow. His hostility toward homosexuals, however, was not odd at all in the community of his time, since there were already very strong religious restrictions against men engaging in homosexual activity in the traditional Jewish community that the early Christians came out of. It would have been "normal" at that time among Jews and many other people in that region to express a horror of homosexuality in their religious writings. Therefore Paul would not have been saying anything very unusual in that respect if he followed along the same line, would he? For that matter, his chauvinist opinions about women probably weren't unusual at the time either...

Hell, maybe he was just an ordinary guy of his time! ;-)

Anyway, some of what he had to say gives me the creeps. I have to admit, though, that he wrote some pretty inspired stuff here and there too. Interesting character.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:38 AM

"A historical record of what Jesus said"???

I'd like to see that history book.


We both know it's impossible. His enemies and people who just didn't care about him wouldn't have taken the time to write it down (and who would have ensured it survived the Dark Ages?), and if his disciples and followers wrote it down, it would be perforce deemed non-historical by the modern history establishment.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Smedley
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:16 PM

Little Hawk, sorry I was a bit dense & didn't perceive the tone of your post. It was early in the day!!


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:28 PM

That's right. It is simply impossible to categorically verify what Jesus did or did not say, based on what we presently have to go on. We can speculate and theorize about it and it can be very interesting to do so, but we cannot confirm any of it.

I've read a number of fascinating books which offer alternative views (differing in various ways from the Bible accounts) of Jesus' life and work. I have no idea which of those books is the most accurate, and I have no way of finding out, so I can only go on my own gut feeling when reading them as to how close to the truth they might be... I can live with not knowing for sure exactly what happened back then. I can admit that I don't know and that there IS no way of presently knowing. It seems that a great many other people in this world have difficulty living with such uncertainty, so they decide to instead subscribe to a specific form of faith and never question it. Their faith will generally reveal either their cultural roots (which is perfectly understandable)...or their emotional prejudices.

That suits them. Fine. It doesn't suit me. I don't mind not being 100% sure about things that happened 2000 or more years ago.

Would I like to know for sure about those things? You bet I would! I thirst for knowledge wherever I can find it. As yet, however, I see no way of achieving such certain knowledge regarding what Jesus said or did. I can only speculate as to what he might have said and done.

I think he was probably heterosexual, a conventional married rabbi of the time (with some unconventional new ideas) AND legally married to Mary of Magdala, and I think there was a long political power struggle between the Marian wing of the church led by Mary and the male-dominated factions led by Peter and Paul...and that the male-dominated side eventually won out, consolidated itself in Rome and Constantinople and cooked the books that have come down to us and attempted (with considerable success) to annihilate the Marian followers wherever they might be found...and the reason I think so is because of several lengthy and very interesting investigative historical books I've read which say exactly that (and I'm not talking about Dan Brown. I have not even read Dan Brown's book. I'm talking about other books that were written some time before Dan Brown had his bestseller. He was not the originator of that theory by any means, but he was very successful at marketing a thriller novel based on the theory.).


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM

Whether JC was gay or not, you have to admit he had some sort of foot fetish.


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Subject: RE: BS: the sayings of elton john
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

Yeah, yeah... (grin)

And you have to comprehend what an enormous symbolic gesture of humility and respect for others it was for a person of higher position or status in that society to humble himself by washing someone else's feet, especially someone of lower status!

It was a very dramatic gesture on his part to make the lesson of equality, respect for others, and willingness to serve others selflessly very clear to his close followers...because their natural instinct would have been to put him up on a huge pedestal and put themselves down below that.

(This is assuming that the stories we've heard about the foot-washing are accurate, and they probably are. It was very unusual behaviour in that society...feet being seen as the dirtiest exposed part of the body among those people in that region...and throughout the East. It's still seen that way. That's why the guy in Iraq threw his shoes at George Bush as a sign of his total disrespect for Dubya.)

Jesus could hardly have picked a more dramatic way of emphasizing that no one is intrinsically above (or better than) anyone else.


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