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Is traditional song finished?

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Spleen Cringe 24 Feb 10 - 03:35 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 10 - 04:05 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM
JedMarum 24 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM
Bounty Hound 24 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM
George Papavgeris 24 Feb 10 - 07:23 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 10 - 07:38 PM
Jack Campin 24 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,999 24 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM
robinia 24 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM
theleveller 25 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM
Tim Leaning 25 Feb 10 - 04:21 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Feb 10 - 04:34 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Feb 10 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 25 Feb 10 - 05:50 AM
Tim Leaning 25 Feb 10 - 06:05 AM
glueman 25 Feb 10 - 06:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Feb 10 - 06:51 AM
glueman 25 Feb 10 - 07:04 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Feb 10 - 07:11 AM
TheSnail 25 Feb 10 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 10 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 10 - 07:58 AM
robinia 25 Feb 10 - 08:15 AM
robinia 25 Feb 10 - 08:22 AM
Jack Campin 25 Feb 10 - 08:58 AM
GUEST 25 Feb 10 - 09:03 AM
TheSnail 25 Feb 10 - 09:09 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Feb 10 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 25 Feb 10 - 09:25 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Feb 10 - 09:35 AM
TheSnail 25 Feb 10 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 25 Feb 10 - 10:46 AM
Richard Mellish 25 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Feb 10 - 11:56 AM
glueman 25 Feb 10 - 12:16 PM
Amos 25 Feb 10 - 12:31 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 25 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM
Richard Mellish 25 Feb 10 - 02:02 PM
Jack Blandiver 25 Feb 10 - 02:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Feb 10 - 02:18 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Feb 10 - 02:42 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 10 - 02:53 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 10 - 03:05 PM
Brian Peters 25 Feb 10 - 03:09 PM
Jack Blandiver 25 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 10 - 03:23 PM
the Folk Police 25 Feb 10 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 25 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:35 PM

Jim - at the risk of appearing pedantic, SO'P has referred to the rag-bag on a couple of occasions purely as a report of what he has found in some folk clubs. It ain't actually his rag-bag, although your frequent quoting of it (and admittedly he appears to have handed you a stick to beat him with) attributes it to him as if it was his bag rather than a pre-existing bag whose contents he has merely examined and commented on. Having attended singarounds where SO'P has regaled us with a few songs, I can safely report that his own particular rag-bag (for folk context purposes) consists almost entirely of tradition English-speaking songs, ballads and stories (with the odd curveball thrown in for good measure). At the risk of bigging up a mate, it's always a pleasure.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:05 PM

SC - I believe he has argued on various occasions that either all or no songs are folk and has used his shopping list as proof - suggest you read his latest offering on 'In Praise of Traddies' (if you do, could you or someone be so kind as to explain it to me - I can't understand a ******* word).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

I was staying out of this, but...

Anybody tempted to dip their toes into folk song for the first time is as likely to find SO'P's rag-bag as they are to find good folk songs and ballads well enough sung to catch their imaginations the way mine was (by the Spinners) in the early sixties.

More likely I'd say, old man - certainly in my experience. But don't shoot the messenger - that's the reality, one in which The Spinners legacy looms large enough I would have thought.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM

are all the apples picked from the tree?

Maybe, after a concerted effort all of the apples are picked, but it will fruit again.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM

Definately not!, whilst there may only be a few undiscovered gems lurking in someones distant memory, as long as there are songwriters producing songs 'in the tradition' then the tradition itself continues. Folk song is a living process and as long as there is a respect for the original, then I see no problem with changing lyrics or adding verses to breath new life into traditional songs. I have done so myself with the version of 'Star of the County Down' I perform, and continue to write songs that I try to give a traditional feel to, often drawing on folk tales and historical events. an example can be found here, http://www.myspace.com/thebountyhounds 'Eyes of Flame' is a song I wrote to tell the tale of Black Shuck, which anyone from East Anglia will be familiar with. I hope with this, I am in my own small way, keeping the tradition alive.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:23 PM

Once more round the block, eh? I think the question is unanswerable definitively anyway. Just think: 50 years from now, or 100, or 150, others will attempt to answer it too. And I think that their answer will be more accurate than any we can give now, simply by virtue of their having more facts available to them.

What will their answer be? I don't care. All I know is that there are some great songs around, some of which are traditional by today's rules.Perhaps more will be discovered, or perhaps our descendants will look at the songs written in our period "in the tradition" and consider them traditional too. So what? Whatever their answer, it will be right - because we will be dead and unable to argue the toss or articulate the 1957 definition for them.

Meanwhile, in my lifetime, I am just having fun listening to, and still discovering to me yet unknown traditional songs. And that's plenty good enough for me.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:38 PM

"But don't shoot the messenger - that's the reality"
No, it's only your, and the small band of 'anything goes' merchants' reality, but mine is the one that's researched and document and published and archived and will continue to survive long after your recent wish that no more traditional songs be sung because - to paraphrase because I cant be arsed - 'Harry Cox, Phil Tanner, Sam Larner, et al have done them to perfection' - leaving the stage free to do whatever it is that you do.
Is that really what people want? If so, let's all pull stumps and go home.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

...(Have you read the whole of the Roxburghe collection? I have)...
No, but if I was to discuss a song on Mudcat, then I would look it up before comparing it with another song.


I didn't compare "While London Sleeps" with anything, because I don't know it. I do know "Streets of London", though, and I don't give much for the chances of its feeble tune ever being reused for other songs in the way that the broadside ballad tunes of 17th century London were.

London has a line of urban tradition that runs from Tudor times to the present day, where the usual rhetoric is melodrama, imaginative abuse and hilarious outbursts of bile. Leon Rosselson is maybe part of it, McTell certainly isn't.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

"Is traditional song finished?"

Ask me at midnight Thursday. I started it yesterday.


KIND gentlemen, will you be patient awhile?
Ay, and then you shall hear anon
A very good ballad of bold Robin Hood,
And of his man, brave Little John.
In Locksly town, in Nottinghamshire,
In merry sweet Locksly town,
There bold Robin Hood he was born and was bred,
Bold Robin of famous renown.
The father of Robin a forester was,
And he shot in a lusty long bow,
Two north country miles and an inch at a shot,
As the Pinder of Wakefield does know.
For he brought Adam Bell, and Clim of the Clugh,
And William a Clowdesle
To shoot with our forrester for forty mark,
And the forrester beat them all three.
His mother was neece to the Coventry knight,
Which Warwickshire men call Sir Guy;
For he slew the blue bore that hangs up at the gate,
Or mine host of The Bull tells a lye.
Her brother was Gamwel, of Great Gamwel Hall,
And a noble house-keeper was he,
Ay, as ever broke bread in sweet Nottinghamshire,
And a squire of famous degree.
The mother of Robin said to her husband,
My honey, my love, and my dear,
Let Robin and I ride this morning to Gamwel,
To taste of my brothers good cheer.
And he said, I grant thee thy boon, gentle Joan,
Take one of my horses, I pray;
The sun is a rising, and therefore make haste,
For to-morrow is Christmas-day.
Then Robin Hoods fathers grey gelding was brought,
And sadled and bridled was he;
God wot, a blew bonnet, his new suit of cloaths,
And a cloak that did reach to his knee.
She got on her holiday kirtle and gown,
They were of a light Lincoln green;
The cloath was homespun, but for colour and make
It might a beseemed our queen.
And then Robin got on his basket-hilt sword,
And his dagger on his tother side,
And said, My dear mother, let's haste to be gone,
We have forty long miles to ride.
When Robin had mounted his gelding so grey,
His father, without any trouble,
Set her up behind him, and bad her not fear,
For his gelding had oft carried double.
And when she was settled, they rode to their neighbours,
And drank and shook hands with them all;
And then Robin gallopt, and never gave ore,
Till they lighted at Gamwel Hall.
And now you may think the right worshipful squire
Was joyful his sister to see;
For he kist her and kist her, and swore a great oath,
Thou art welcome, kind sister, to me.
To-morrow, when mass had been said in the chappel,
Six tables were coverd in the hall,
And in comes the squire, and makes a short speech,
It was, Neighbours, you're welcome all.
But not a man here shall taste my March beer,
Till a Christmas carrol he sing:
Then all clapt their hands, and they shouted and sung,
Till the hall and the parlour did ring.
Now mustard and braun, roast beef and plumb pies,
Were set upon every table:
And noble George Gamwel said, Eat and be merry,
And drink too, as long as you're able.
When dinner was ended, his chaplain said grace,
And, 'Be merry, my friends,' said the squire;
'It rains, and it blows, but call for more ale,
And lay some more wood on the fire.
'And now call ye Little John hither to me,
For Little John is a fine lad
At gambols and juggling, and twenty such tricks
As shall make you merry and glad.'
When Little John came, to gambols they went,
Both gentleman, yeoman and clown;
And what do you think? Why, as true as I live,
Bold Robin Hood put them all down.
And now you may think the right worshipful squire
Was joyful this sight for to see;
For he said, Cousin Robin, thou'st go no more home,
But tarry and dwell here with me.
Thou shalt have my land when I dye, and till then
Thou shalt be the staff of my age;
'Then grant me my boon, dear uncle,' said Robin,
'That Little John may be my page.'
And he said, Kind cousin, I grant thee thy boon;
With all my heart, so let it be;
'Then come hither, Little John,' said Robin Hood,
'Come hither, my page, unto me.
'Go fetch my bow, my longest long bow,
And broad arrows, one, two, or three;
For when it is fair weather we'll into Sherwood,
Some merry pastime to see.'
When Robin Hood came into merry Sherwood,
He winded his bugle so clear,
And twice five and twenty good yeomen and bold
Before Robin Hood did appear.
'Where are your companions all?' said Robin Hood,
'For still I want forty and three;'
Then said a bold yeoman, Lo, yonder they stand,
All under a green-wood tree.
As that word was spoke, Clorinda came by;
The queen of the shepherds was she;
And her gown was of velvet as green as the grass,
And her buskin did reach to her knee.
Her gait it was graceful, her body was straight,
And her countenance free from pride;
A bow in her hand, and quiver and arrows
Hung dangling by her sweet side.
Her eye-brows were black, ay, and so was her hair,
And her skin was as smooth as glass;
Her visage spoke wisdom, and modesty too;
Sets with Robin Hood such a lass!
Said Robin Hood, Lady fair, whither away?
O whither, fair lady, away?
And she made him answer, To kill a fat buck;
For to-morrow is Titbury day.
Said Robin Hood, Lady fair, wander with me
A little to yonder green bower;
There sit down to rest you, and you shall be sure
Of a brace or a lease in an hour.
And as we were going towards the green bower,
Two hundred good bucks we espy'd;
She chose out the fattest that was in the herd,
And she shot him through side and side.
'By the faith of my body,' said bold Robin Hood,
'I never saw woman like thee;
And comst thou from east, ay, or comst thou from west,
Thou needst not beg venison of me.
'However, along to my bower you shall go,
And taste of a forresters meat:'
And when we come thither, we found as good cheer
As any man needs for to eat.
For there was hot venison, and warden pies cold,
Cream clouted, with honey-combs plenty;
And the sarvitors they were, beside Little John,
Good yeomen at least four and twenty.
Clorinda said, Tell me your name, gentle sir;
And he said, 'Tis bold Robin Hood:
Squire Gamwel's my uncle, but all my delight
Is to dwell in the merry Sherwood.
For 'tis a fine life, and 'tis void of all strife.
'So 'tis, sir,' Clorinda reply'd;
'But oh,' said bold Robin, 'How sweet would it be,
If Clorinda would be my bride!'
She blusht at the motion; yet, after a pause
Said, Yes, sir, and with all my heart;
'Then let's send for a priest,' said Robin Hood,
'And be married before we do part.'
But she said, It may not be so, gentle sir,
For I must be at Titbury feast;
And if Robin Hood will go thither with me,
I'll make him the most welcome guest.
Said Robin Hood, Reach me that buck, Little John,
For I'll go along with my dear;
Go bid my yeomen kill six brace of bucks,
And meet me to-morrow just here.
Before we had ridden five Staffordshire miles,
Eight yeomen, that were too bold,
Bid Robin Hood stand, and deliver his buck;
A truer tale never was told.
'I will not, faith!' said bold Robin: 'Come, John,
Stand to me, and we'll beat em all:'
Then both drew their swords, an so cut em and slasht em
That five of them did fall.
The three that remaind calld to Robin for quarter,
And pitiful John beggd their lives;
When John's boon was granted, he gave them good counsel,
And so sent them home to their wives.
This battle was fought near to Titbury town,
When the bagpipes bated the bull;
I am king of the fidlers, and sware 'tis a truth,
And I call him that doubts it a gull.
For I saw them fighting, and fidld the while,
And Clorinda sung, Hey derry down!
The bumpkins are beaten, put up thy sword,Bob,
And now let's dance into the town.
Before we came to it, we heard a strange shouting,
And all that were in it lookd madly;
For some were a bull-back, some dancing a morris,
And some singing Arthur-a-Bradly.
And there we see Thomas, our justices clerk,
And Mary, to whom he was kind;
For Tom rode before her, and calld Mary, Madam,
And kist her full sweetly behind.
And so may your worships. But we went to dinner,
With Thomas and Mary and Nan;
They all drank a health to Clorinda, and told her
Bold Robin Hood was a fine man.
When dinner was ended, Sir Roger, the parson
Of Dubbridge, was sent for in haste;
He brought his mass-book, and he bade them take hands,
And he joynd them in marriage full fast.
And then, as bold Robin Hood and his sweet bride
Went hand in hand to the green bower,
The birds sung with pleasure in merry Sherwood,
And 'twas a most joyful hour.
And when Robin came in the sight of the bower,
'Where are my yeomen?' said he;
And Little John answered, Lo, yonder they stand,
All under the green-wood tree.
Then a garland they brought her, by two and by two,
And plac'd them upon the bride's head;
The music struck up, and we all fell to dance,
Till the bride and the groom were a-bed.
And what they did there must be counsel to me,
Because they lay long the next day,
And I had haste home, but I got a good piece
Of the bride-cake, and so came away.
Now out, alas! I had forgotten to tell ye
That marryd they were with a ring;
And so will Nan Knight, or be buried a maiden,
And now let us pray for the king:
That he may get children, and they may get more,
To govern and do us some good;
And then I'll make ballads in Robin Hood's bower,
And sing em in merry Sherwood.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: robinia
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM

"Given that Cecil Sharpe bowdlerised most of what he collected..."   In what sense is that a given?    Thanks for bringing this up, Brian, because I question the assumption that Sharpe was personally responsible for any "bowlderising" of old ballads. Has anyone considered the possibility that singers modified their own language?   He was obviously a visitor from polite society, and older singers might well have felt a sense of constraint about what they sang...


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM

"by and large they are not leaving the greenhouse conditions of the folk club"

Not true in my case and with a lot of the songwriters I mentioned earlier. The songs get aired regularly in pubs, schools, on local radio stations and at private parties and gatherings. I don't go to folk clubs all that often these days but I did have a retired farmer who was moved to tears when I sang a song in a village pub recently and he came up and asked for the words. I can only speak from personal experience but it does differ considerably from yours, Jim.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM

JC "Is that really what people want? If so, let's all pull stumps and go home."

SO'P is describing the kind of music *amateur musicians* might play when gathered together under the rough tag of 'folk club' but what is more rightly the singaround cum pub session, rather than the type of professional performer/performance that a proper folk club might offer up to it's paying audience.

I think some amateur musicians just want to gather in a sociable manner and make music together for fun. And it is fun. Whether they be playing their own compositions on electric keyboard or singing unaccompanied traditional songs. It's democratic, home-made, good-natured fun. The 'folk club' tag may be something of a misnomer in places, as what is played or sung might bare little or no resemblance to any kind of 'folk music' other than what may be found in the spirit of communal participation in (as opposed to passive consumption of) self-made entertainment. And as a participant in such affairs, I'm all for them.

Otherwise, I think it more likely that someone new (presumably young?) wanting to 'dip their toes' into folk, will hear a song by Bellowhead on the radio or telly and think about going to a Bellowhead gig or a folk festival as a consequence, rather than seeking out a folk club. That's my guess based on the types of thing young 'uns into music tend to do. I'm invariably the youngest bar the children at any club I've gone to, and I'm no longer young by general standards. So I think the liklihood of someone being turned off folk music as a consequence of attending an amateur music session is fairly remote IMHO. It may happen sometimes, but I'd be very surprised if it was a common enough occurance to make any difference to the demographic of those interested on folk song proper.

Having said that, clearly from what's said here at least, I think there is a dedicated band of traditional enthusiasts who would probably like to be able to go to an amateur folk clubs/singarounds and hear more traditional material played and sung. If they are frustrated with the status quo of the average amateur session however, then it's them as has to organise something to more specifically suit their tastes and wants rather than impose restrictive conditions on others - even if the 'folk club' tag has become a shorthand phrase synonomous with 'amateur acoustic music club in a pub' when used in some contexts.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:21 AM

"Is traditional song finished?"
No there are always another 47 verses!


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:34 AM

>The 'folk club' tag may be something of a misnomer in places, as what is played or sung might bare little or no resemblance to any kind of 'folk music'<

The key word there is "might" because in my (albeit fairly limited) experience the ratio of old to new ranges considerably. Some amateur sessions can be chock full of the old songs in varying forms. Either way, it bothers me not. I enjoy the variety and the camraderie.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:08 AM

No, it's only your, and the small band of 'anything goes' merchants' reality,

For a start, it's not a small band, and it's hardly mine. Such a folk club exists at the end of my street & I haven't darkened its doors since early December largely because of the 'anything goes' approach which, whilst it doesn't inspire me, is the right and privilege of those who go and enjoy it. With one or two very small exceptions, I can't think of a single folk club or singaround I have been to in the past decade and more that wasn't more 'anything goes' than trad.

but mine is the one that's researched and document and published and archived and will continue to survive long after your recent wish that no more traditional songs be sung because - to paraphrase because I cant be arsed - 'Harry Cox, Phil Tanner, Sam Larner, et al have done them to perfection'

Good on you too, but at least have the decency to quote me in context. What I said was: If people never sang another note of these songs it would be no bother me at all; they have been sung by the masters - Phil Tanner, Davie Stewart, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon, Sam Larner, Willie Scott, Mrs Pearl Brewer of Arkansas et al - let that be enough to let them resound down the ages.

Allow to to explain. The Tradition and The Revival are two very different things. As far as listening to Traditional Songs goes, then I'll listen to Traditional Singers, rather than endure the increasingly MOR output of Revival Singers. The Traditional Songs are part of history - along with so much else, they are artefacts from a world which is lost to us. Times have changed, culture has moved on, but there will always be a few of us looking back - be it the folk song enthusiast in his or her local singaround, or the model railway enthusiast is his (or her? I think not somehow...) loft - or any number of other historical re-creators & re-enactors, from the Vikings to the English Civil War.

Folk Song Enthusiasm is a minority hobby which in no way reflects the glory of the Traditional Song or the singers named above. This is why it wouldn't overly bother me if people stopped singing them altogether. As I say, they have been sung by the masters, and this fact alone ensures their relevance to the future. Similarly, it wouldn't bother me if Model Railway Enthusiast stopped re-creating the past in miniature - it would hardly effect the reality that was the age of steam. Likewise Viking re-enactors play a very small part in my appreciation of Ancient Norse culture; their loss too I could easily endure.

But this is a far cry from wishing they'd stop; nothing could be further from the truth. My wish is that they keep on singing the old songs in greater abundance & greater passion; my wish is that new generations of singers address themselves assiduously to the true glories of The Tradition and that every folk club & singaround becomes besieged by passionate singers of traditional song & ballad; that roofs and spirits alike are raised with roaring choruses - to tell to all eternity we're glad that we're alive! indeed.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:50 AM

I don't think the songs themselves are finished but I suspect that a lot of people are probably finished with them.

The question of whether they continue to 'survive' depends on what we mean by survival. If we consider that to mean that people continue to gather together socially to sing and enjoy them then they probably aren't finished just yet but there are certainly fewer folk clubs around, for example, than there were 30 or 40 years ago. This suggests that even allowing for people dying off there are a lot of people who just don't feel like going to them anymore.

The music and songs you hear at sessions (certainly in England) are often sung by people who have learnt them from records or CDs - often many years ago - and who have their own favourites which don't vary much over time. One of the reasons for this is that many session and folk club singers learnt most of their repertoire as younger men and women and if they are still working they probably don't have much time to learn more songs (until they retire, at any rate) unless they work in the sort of fields that allow them the time to do so (such as teaching or academia) or, if they have families, until their kids grow up.   So much of their material is recycled and in performance isn't that different from Karaoke (a much-maligned activity, in my view).

A lot of hope for the future of traditional song is invested in younger musicians. Fair enough. Young musicians have an enormous range of resources available to them nowadays that allow them to access any form of music that interests them. If you look at the track listings of a lot of younger artists' albums you suspect that most of their 'collecting' has comprised of nothing more strenuous that going through their parents' record collections.

However, it seems to me that the decision of many young artists to invest their time and energy in traditional music is essentially a consumer choice and a career decision rather than a continuation of a living tradition where the music survives as part of a community's life rather than as a means to an end. Commercial decisions can be changed, of course, as commercial conditions vary.

At present, many traditional artists are able to make a fairly comfortable living playing at the many outdoor summer festivals in various countries as well as the various arts centres and arts festivals at indoor venues around the country. Part of the reason for that is that at present there is a generation of publicly-funded arts administrators who make programming decisions who grew up with the folk and college music scenes in the 60s and 70s.

So for the time being there is still a fairly lucrative amount of work available for established folk artists in what is essentially a nationalized branch of the entertainment industry. The same applies to the various academic courses in folk- and traditional-related music that now exist in the academic world in Britain and Ireland.   Again, that can change as economic circumstances change.    Whether that is still the case in 10 or 15 years remains to be seen.

Jim refers to Tom Munnelly describing his work as 'a race with the undertaker'. Without wanting to be morbid, the increasingly elderly audience for commercial folk music (including folk clubs), even at performances by younger artists, suggests that while there is no reason to expect the body of traditional song that has been collected, gathered, recorded and preserved (electronically and otherwise) to disappear, I wonder who's going to be listening to them in 20 years from now – and where.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:05 AM

Me on me cranial implants.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:20 AM

Excellent points from SO'P and Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:51 AM

""long after your recent wish that no more traditional songs be sung because - to paraphrase because I cant be arsed""

As one who leans toward what you erroneously call the "Anything Goes Brigade", may I ask do you have any evidence to support that slur about not wanting traditional songs to be sung because we "can't be arsed"?

Certainly, I have advocated a more relaxed attitude to what is welcomed in a folk club, and in fact am comfortable with the occasional pop or rock number.

I have, however, never attempted to discourage traditional song. Quite the opposite in truth. I simply try to encourage people to attend, and I can point to a number of people who came to clubs and sessions in which I was involved, with a 60s/70s, or a Jazz repertoire, who are now regularly performing traditional material.

The following is an excerpt from the publicity for a new monthly session hosted by the currently up and coming band "Wheeler Street".

"Wheeler Street took their name from the address of The Greyhound pub, to acknowledge the debt that they owed to the participants of the unfortunately now defunct singaround that was held there bi-monthly until it was closed two years ago.

In the three or four years since forming, Wheeler Street have won themselves thousands of fans all over the UK, most of whom would never have considered listening to traditional or folk music before.

Many of the tunes and songs they perform were first heard at The Greyhound and they continue to be influenced by the singarounds they still attend.

Wheeler Street are stiIl all under 21, and so of course are all their friends, and those of you who have witnessed it will, hopefully, be as delighted as I am to see kids of 18 or 19 arriving on skateboards and bellowing out chorus songs and shanties with the best of them:

We have chosen to hold this singaround at The Old House at Home for a number of reasons.

Firstly Jim, the landlord, is a great supporter of Wheeler Street and the Starks family band, and is a lovely man who is prepared to bend over backwards to make it work, and although not a folkie (yet) Is a pretty good singer himself. There is sufficient room to hold loads of participants, and all the friends and families that usually accompany WS gatherings and most importantly the beer's not bad at all.
""

These youngsters came to the Greyhound with a varied repertoire of 60s/70s/Country/ along with some contemporary Folk (if I may call it that without getting a verbal beating).

They are now performing mostly traditional with great enthusiasm, and selling it big time to others their age.

Was it not worth having accepted them in the first place, to achieve that result?

Would it have happened without those you despise so, the "Anything Goes Brigade"?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:04 AM

A fair point Don. To the average twenty year old traditional music is as remote as chain mail and Chaucer. An earlier generation had contemporary voices to mediate and interpete songs for them, the songs became for want of a better word, fashionable.

Who knows how youngsters will connect with traditional music but it certainly won't be on a forced diet of 'this is good for you', it might be because, perish the thought, they'll be entertained.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:11 AM

Nice post Don T.
And just to be contentious, I'm rather tempted to learn this:
Times have changed, And we've often rewound the clock, ...
But now, God knows, Anything Goes


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:53 AM

Jim Carroll

I am not arguing for one minute that people are not writing songs Bryan - of course they are. But by and large they are not leaving the greenhouse conditions of the folk club...

Previously you had said -

"However, that doesn't mean that the skills and desire to produce songs in the traditional style or styles have been lost." [theleveller]
Absolutely right; but when I look at S O'Ps shopping list of what passes for folk in some/many of todays clubs I am left with the impression that this is very much on the wan too - please prove me wrong - please.

I'm confused. What ARE you arguing? What are you asking us to prove?

One of the great failures of the revival is that it has failed to engage with the population at large and it has failed to draw the attention of the general public to their own songs - not finger pointing, I was as much a part of that failure as anybody.

Wow! That's a pretty serious ambition. I will be happy if I can persuade a few people to share my pleasure in traditional music. Changing the tastes of the population at large is a step too far for me.

Unfortunately the Universe doesn't start and end in Lewes.

I can't believe that we are the sole audience for those songwriters who come from Cornwall, Northumberland and points inbetween. You seem to think that all other folk clubs in the land conform to the description emanating from the fuddled brain of S O'P.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:54 AM

"As one who leans toward what you erroneously call the "Anything Goes Brigade", may I ask do you have any evidence to support that slur about not wanting traditional songs to be sung because we "can't be arsed"?
Not a lot of time to read though all this properly at present - but suggest you read my post more carefully, which was a response to SO'P's:
"If people never sang another note of these songs it would be no bother me at all; they have been sung by the masters - Phil Tanner, Davie Stewart, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon, Sam Larner, Willie Scott, Mrs Pearl Brewer of Arkansas et al - let that be enough to let them resound down the ages."
It was me who couldn'd be arsed digging this piece of reactionary nonsense from a previous post.
CS
I've always had difficulty in distinguishing the difference between 'fun' and 'pleasure' and always presumed that they are the same thing.
I sang and listened for fun/pleasure, the peak of which was when I or anybody sang something well which the audence enjoyed and understood. I never enjoyed singing badly in public, and the fact that my singing is no longer what it was is the reason I avoid singing nowadays.
We NEVER differentiated between paying guests and those who turned up each week to sing. I feel that throwing open folk songs to the general public requires that you present them in an acceptible form - otherwise I would have stayed at home and sung in the bath.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:58 AM

Cross posted:
"You seem to think that all other folk clubs in the land conform to the description emanating from the fuddled brain of S O'P. "
Thank's Bryan - that's what I was asking you to prove.
Must go; it's not raining unfortunately
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: robinia
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:15 AM

"Given that Cecil Sharpe bowdlerised most of what he collected..."

Er... in what sense is that a 'given'?

Thanks for raising the question, Brian.   I question the assumption that Sharpe himself bowlderised what he collected.   It's at least possible that, singing to this visitor from polite society, many older singers themselves modified their language.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: robinia
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:22 AM

Oops, didn't mean to repeat myself!


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:58 AM

PLEASE. There was no such person as "Cecil Sharpe".

You meant Cecil Sharp, the English folk song collector.

You did not mean Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe, the Scottish folk song collector.

It's well documented how both of them dealt with the limits on what could be published in their own time - in both cases, responsibly and creditably. Here is something from an early 18th century manuscript that Sharpe published, but not in a way that would attract more attention than he could deal with:

The Metamorphosis (1707-8)


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:03 AM

"fuddled brain"

Not nice.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:09 AM

Jim Carroll

Thank's Bryan - that's what I was asking you to prove.

======================================================================

Subject: RE: 1954 and All That - defining folk music
From: Sailor Ron - PM
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 11:44 AM

Jim "....that SS 'traddie' though he claims to be....neither understands the tradition nor gives a toss for its welfare".

I feel I must take up cudgels over this [not that SS needs anyone else to defend his views]. Firstly this threat was, at least originaly, about the relavance, today, of the 1954 definition.
SS has mentioned several times what he is likley to hear at his local folk club, which is also mine. Yes we do get all that he has mentioned, but, and it is a big but, well over 60% of what is performed is 'traditional'[ that is if you include broadsheets, chapbooks, and 'old songs by unknown authors], plus a fair number of what I would call songs written in the traditional style or idiom.
Of all the people I have met in 'the folk scene' over the past 40 years SS is, without a doubt, one of the most leaned, and passionate,
exponants of the great traditional ballads. Besides ballads he he sings a vast number of 'traditional' songs, and if he also has a love of Kipling/Bellamy songs so what? He also on occasions descends to the deapths os singing some of mine [Shock! Horror!]. Does this make him any less a 'traddie'? And as for 'not giving a toss', well [and forgive me for this Jim, 'cause much of what you have said throughout this thread I totally agree with], is a complete load of bollocks !    Sailor Ron

======================================================================

My highlighting.

Even S O'P's description of his local club was challenged by someone else familiar with it. To extrapolate from this one dodgy bit of evidence to all folk clubs is untenable. Sorr, Jim, no case to answer.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:13 AM

The Sycophantic Mollusc: You seem to think that all other folk clubs in the land conform to the description emanating from the fuddled brain of S O'P

Once again Mudcat talks break down when, not being able come up with anything constructive to say, posters feel the need resort to personal insults.

JC: It was me who couldn'd be arsed digging this piece of reactionary nonsense from a previous post.

Hardly reactionary, old man - long after the revival is dead and forgotten (about 15 years should do it) people are still going to value the Traditional Songs and the singers thereof.

JC: Absolutely right; but when I look at S O'Ps shopping list of what passes for folk in some/many of todays clubs I am left with the impression that this is very much on the wan too - please prove me wrong - please.

This presumably being people trying to write songs in the Traditional Idiom, which is, at best, a revival conceit and in no way produces songs in any way worthy of being called Traditional. I work with song writers with a canny knack for the craft, but are these really folk songs in the same sense as the traditional songs? I say most definitely not, even though I have happily roared out many a Graham Miles chorus and actively promote the singular genius of Ron Baxter, and revel in the song writing talents of Mike Waterson, Lal Waterson, Peter Bellamy and Bob Pegg and might even crack one off myself as the occasion demands. This is where mere Folk is different from Traditional; as different as Mr Higgins's scratch-built 00-scale model of the Flying Scotsman is different from the real thing; even as different as The Tornado is different from the real Peppercorn A1's from 1948; a fine sight it may be, but it is not 1948.

To confuse the two is to do a grave disservice to the traditional heritage and the marvels thereof; thus is born Fake Lore, and sadly Fake Song.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:25 AM

To get back to the original posters question.
"Is traditional song finished?"
The answer is
No. Not by a long way.
My two pence on the subject.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:35 AM

Even S O'P's description of his local club was challenged by someone else familiar with it. To extrapolate from this one dodgy bit of evidence to all folk clubs is untenable. Sorr, Jim, no case to answer.

The anything-goes policy of Fleetwood Folk Club might be gleaned from its web page (see HERE) which, incidently, I look after. All of the songs on the player are settings of Ron's songs by various club members, and a look at the guest list will show that the guest policy is very much non-traditional - which is why I never bothered with guest nights.

As I replied to Ron at the time I think 60% is very generous estimate; many nights I have been there and the only traditional material has been sung by me. This is but one of the factors why I haven't been for the past 3 months - and it is simply a matter of personal taste, not damnation. I don't go to Karaoke nights either, nor would I expect Ron or any other of my folky friends to come with my wife and I to see the Bad Lieutenants or Peter Hook's Unknown Pleasures. Fact is, Fleetwood Folk Club is an alive, happening, open, appreciative, enthusiastic, friendly, welcoming, anything-goes free-for-all which is no way atypical of any number of folk clubs I've been to over the years.

I think you highlighted the wrong bit of Ron's post there, Brian. This is the best bit (SS is me of course, then posting as Sinister Supporter):

Of all the people I have met in 'the folk scene' over the past 40 years SS is, without a doubt, one of the most leaned, and passionate,
exponants of the great traditional ballads. Besides ballads he he sings a vast number of 'traditional' songs, and if he also has a love of Kipling/Bellamy songs so what? He also on occasions descends to the deapths os singing some of mine [Shock! Horror!]. Does this make him any less a 'traddie'? And as for 'not giving a toss', well [and forgive me for this Jim, 'cause much of what you have said throughout this thread I totally agree with], is a complete load of bollocks !   


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:56 AM

Suibhne O'Piobaireachd

a look at the guest list will show that the guest policy is very much non-traditional

John Kelly, Bryony, Steve Turner, Geoff Higginbottom?


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:46 AM

"The Fleetwood Folk Club caters for all types of acoustic music, from traditional English ballads, Irish jigs and reels, jazz, classical, blues, rock and roll, contemporary song writers and many other forms of music.

We welcome all performers and especially the complete novice. Everyone is welcome to come to the gathering either to perform or to simply listen and enjoy the various styles of music on offer.

About every 6 weeks or so a guest artist appears. These ... represent a wide range of musical styles."

I too can quote selectively from their website.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM

I have found myself agreeing with much that Crow Sister says, but a few posts back she said
> SO'P is describing the kind of music *amateur musicians* might play when gathered together under the rough tag of 'folk club' but what is more rightly the singaround cum pub session, rather than the type of professional performer/performance that a proper folk club might offer up to it's paying audience. <

I have trouble with the notion of the "proper folk club" being one that offers "professional performer/performance" as contrasted with the "singaround" where anyone can turn up and sing anything.

I am in no position to generalise about folk clubs / singarounds / any-other-name nowadays, because in the last decade or so I have visited only one such regularly and a few others a very few times. My regular is Sharp's Folk Club (note the name). About one evening a month we have a professional performer, who performs for about 60% of the evening, the other 40% being much the same as the singarounds that we have on the non-guest evenings.

In the singarounds, all performers are made welcome and "anything goes" occasionally, but the preponderance is of traditional material from England and Ireland, with lesser amounts of traditional from other places (Scotland, Sweden, USA, etc) and non-traditional. The performers have various levels of skill (of course) but most are at least competent and some are excellent.

Yes the world has changed; we now have on-line communities (like this one) defined by common interest rather than common location; a folk club, singaround or musicians' session isn't exactly the same as a singing pub of 50 or 100 years ago; but I see these as more-or-less the present-day equivalents. As has already been said on this thread, some of the songs that people are writing nowadays do get picked up and sung by others.

As for the folk process, which is generally reckoned to be an essential part of the tradition: I often notice small but significant changes in songs that either have been recently written (with, therefore, authentic original versions) or have been learnt from well-known recordings. For instance I recently heard someone sing Sally, Free and Easy and change the line "The heart she gave me was not made of stone" to "The heart I gave her was not made of stone".

I have also heard The Galway Shawl with "we kept on talking" changed to "she kept on talking", suggesting why a few hours in the girl's company might have been enough.

If you want instances of complete re-builds of songs, such as the one that some time in the past gave rise to two radically different families of versions of The Two Sisters; how about this modern version of The Frog and the Mouse and Bob Coltman's Son of Child series?

Richard


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:56 AM

"I am in no position to generalise about folk clubs / singarounds / any-other-name"

Nor am I, my own comments are merely representative of my own limited experience. And actually, I think I've misunderstood SO'P in any event. I thought he was just talking about the strictly amateur song/music session, but in retrospect he's obviously describing those folk clubs of his own experience in general.

Maybe with me not being a child of the revival, I see things in far more black and white terms? Traditional songs and contemporary folk songs. Amateur music club and professional paid performer. I must confess I prefer to eschew the ambiguous shades of grey that I read hear and that appear to cause so much argument amongst people. It's super that people write new songs in the 'folk idiom' and rightly enjoy doing that, but it's the archived body of traditional material that interests me not new songs absorbed into 'the tradition'. Whatever that means, they are not identical to the archived body of songs from the old oral tradition. Similarly, if I pay to go see something I want to know what I'm paying to see. But if I'm simply joining in with a bunch of others just doing their thing, I'm joining in for the hell of it, and I'm not going to complain if I don't dig exactly what they're doing. If I go to a restaurant for a meal, I choose what I want and pay for it and if it's dire I get my money back and leave. If I go to a dinner party hosted by friends, I eat what I'm given and enjoy it in the spirit that it is given.

Perhaps if I was older and had been a part of the revival, the apparent ambiguities that I read here, would make more sense to me?


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:16 PM

I've treated myself to one of these on the basis this may be the new this.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:31 PM

The time-window within which Childs' collection were originally developed probably felt very modern to those living and singing in it. And I could hazard that they, too, mourned the disappearing view of the far past traditions which were fading out. The REAL traditional songs, to them, might have included long-forgotten paeans to Boadicea or war-chants from the Blue Belly Brigade dancing in Ashdown Forest or some such thing, but to those in the 18-19 c. window, these were the real stuff, now long forgot.

Granted, we have accelerated the rate of change by becoming a media-centric, networked civilization. But I do not believe the fundamentals have changed that much.

In my family, amongst all my nephews and nieces, "Jamaica Farewell" and "The Strawberry Roan" are traditional songs because they are remembered from their childhoods forty years ago when I sang them to them around Gramma's fireplace.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM

I'm not quite finished writing my most recent one. :-)


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:02 PM

CS said
> It's super that people write new songs in the 'folk idiom' and rightly enjoy doing that, but it's the archived body of traditional material that interests me not new songs absorbed into 'the tradition'. Whatever that means, they are not identical to the archived body of songs from the old oral tradition.

Ah, but that old oral tradition is pretty diverse. As I said recently in another thread, I don't see a lot in common between, for example, Cruel Mother, Cupid's Garden and Watters o' Tyne.) And that's without considering the diverse versions of Cruel Mother.

I reckon some songs made in the last 50-odd years (by the likes of MacColl, Tawney, Guthrie and Utah Phillips) can pass muster with songs made a century (or two or three) earlier. Equally, a lot of songs made over the centuries have disappeared into oblivion deservedly.

One of the defining aspects of the tradition, in this context, is selection. The old songs that have survived have done so because they have virtues that have appealed to a succession of song carriers. By and large, they continue to appeal to (some of) us now for the same reasons. Despite the changed circumstances of transmission, the transmission still happens, and I would expect repertoires in a hundred years time to include some of the recent songs along with some of those that are already old now.

This is not to say that I consider all the recent ones to be remotely comparable to the old ones. The old ones have passed through the selection process (as well as the transmission and variation that may or may not have improved them). The song makers that I have mentioned are all deceased, and their output has already been subject to some selection. The output of today's singer-songwriters is just being fed into the selection process (or not, if they prefer to enforce copyright and prohibit others from performing their songs).

Richard


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:03 PM

The Fleetwood Folk Club caters for all types of acoustic music,

I might add that although I run the FFC myspace page, I didn't write that bit of blurb which comes from an earlier, now defunct, web-page. This covers & celebrates on-going club policy which is further reflected in the repertoires of the residents and regulars which is widely (60%?!) idiomatic Folk though rarely purely traditional. Many of the regulars are skilled songwriters too - Ron Baxter, Nicky Snell & Ivan McKeown, to name but three - writing in a variety of idioms each of which could be called Folk. Ron's songs are regularly set & performed by other regulars & residents and yet further afield; Ivan's songs likewise, joining the ranks of innumerable Folk Song Writers whose work has been taken up by the folk community. Whilst not a resident nor a regular at the folk club himself, the canny song writing of Alan Bell is very much in evidence & provides both an inspiration and a bench mark of the standards people aim for which is in any case pretty high. I've recently had the pleasure of engineering a session for Nicky Snell, and I regard Ron Baxter as a crucial collaborator & musical colleague, as well as a very dear friend.

As CS says, however, none of this is Traditional Song, which is not a value judgement, but a statement of fact & a reflection on the current state of play in the folk clubs and perhaps the revival in general. It is this reality that gave rise to the OP of the 1954 and All That thread which seeks, on my part, to accommodate the breadth of music one finds in folk clubs these days and an attempt to understand how that might be Folk Music. That I failed in this appreciation is by the by; I have my limits & my passions, as do we all, but I would never question the right of ANYONE to perform ANYTHING in the name of FOLK - just as long as we're all be clear about what is, and what is not, a Traditional Folk Song.

One of the FFC regulars is the brother of a celebrated opera singer. The other week said Celebrated Opera Singer paid a visit. Though he didn't sing on that occasion, next time, so I'm told, he just might...


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:18 PM

"If people never sang another note of these songs it would be no bother me at all; they have been sung by the masters""

Now, you see Jim, there is to me quite a large gap in meaning between this, "it wouldn't bother me", and your re-interpreted version

""long after your recent wish that no more traditional songs be sung because - to paraphrase because I cant be arsed""

If you can't see the chasm of difference between the two, I would suggest that an English Language course would be beneficial, in the interest of accuracy of understanding.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:42 PM

"I would expect repertoires in a hundred years time to include some of the recent songs along with some of those that are already old now."

Hmm, I must confess that I feel this to be an idealised romantic projection into an unlikely hypothetical musical future, which will no doubt be quite different to anything any of us might imagine.

Just consider how the internet has revolutionised the record industry in a matter of a smattering of years. And before that how the industrial revolution basically dispatched the old oral tradition. A hundred years is a very long time in the modern world. The old oral tradition (bar token remnants in schoolgrounds and terraces) died a death, as collectors like Jim Carroll will testify to - we have even heard from him how the Irish travellers he collected songs from lost their oral tradition in a matter of around 18 months just because they were able to buy TV's! The modern era destroyed the old oral tradition, but we have at least a body of historical documents in the form of the songs they once sang, to refer to and to explore and to enjoy *in our own way* - which IMHO is never going to be identical to the way in which they enjoyed them.

I too suspect that the revival - as a particular modern cultural phenomenon distict from the old oral tradition (or at best an artificially summoned revenant) - is itself on its last legs, and will likely fade out with the very same generation of enthusiasts who forged it in the first place. It might not.. But I personally suspect it probably will.

On the other hand the old songs will always be there to potentially inspire and fascinate fresh generations of enthusiasts - in the same way that the collected works of Shakespear will be. But in what fashion those future generations will go about engaging with them, will be anyone's guess. For now, I'm simply happy to be singing and sharing the Last of the Summer's Wine with others who are happy to do likewise. And while I'm busy enjoying the now, the future can fend for itself ;-)


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:53 PM

"Hardly reactionary, old man"
Anybody who lumps in Harry Cox and Phil Tanner with Heavy Metal is as reactionary as it gets.
"Jim, no case to answer."
Bryan - I didn't really think there was. My problem arising, (as you rightly point out) from my not attending UK clubs often, is on the one hand I have SO'P's rag-bag as an example of legitimate fare for a set-up that calls itself a folk club, and on the other I have clubs like the Lewes ones which, I have no reason to doubt consistently present good folk-music well performed - what's a poor girl expected to do in those circumstances?
I know from personal experience that the number and quality of the clubs have declined radically over the last twenty-odd years, as have the audences numbers - I don't know to what extent.
I do believe there are remedies to improve things, if not to put them back to where they were - it's happened here in Ireland.
"Wow! That's a pretty serious ambition."
My reference to our failure to influence the public at large was a response to S O'P's claim that 'The world has moved on' as far as a definition of 'folk'; my point being that the world in general has shown no interest in the subject whatever and goes through life either unaware or not caring whether folk music exists or not. The arbitrary manipulation or abandoning the definition is solely the work of people like S O'P with a vested interest.
I said earlier that I believe clubs that call themselves 'folk' take on a responsibility for the music they claim to present.
Just before we left London we 'pigged out' on folk clubs, visiting as many of them as we could because we realised we wouldn't get the opportunity here.
We were in a West London club one night were the performances were diabolical and the songs were - indifferent (not one of Sweeney's wannabe but failed heavy metal mobs, just somewhat dismal). A youngish couple came in, the man had obviously been before but the woman appeared to be a first-timer who sat looking a mixture of bored and bemused. After a while she slipped the man a piece of paper and shortly afterwards they disappeared through the door.
To my shame, in the interval I found the piece of paper which had been left on their vacant seats and read it. It said "What the **** have you brought me to".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:05 PM

Don I actually wrote as a sentence "to paraphrase because I cant be arsed -"
Perhaps I should have added - "..... digging out the orginal statement" - I was intending that the hyphen would indicate my leaving the rest of the sentence hanging - my apologies for the confusion.
"If people never sang another note of these songs....."
Nope, sorry Don, it appears equally as crass to me, whichever version - hence my Shakespeare analogy.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:09 PM

A very insightful and realistic post, Crow Sister.


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM

Anybody who lumps in Harry Cox and Phil Tanner with Heavy Metal is as reactionary as it gets.

And when did I do that?

The arbitrary manipulation or abandoning the definition is solely the work of people like S O'P with a vested interest.

And what vested interest might that be?

I said earlier that I believe clubs that call themselves 'folk' take on a responsibility for the music they claim to present.

You mean they don't?

(not one of Sweeney's wannabe but failed heavy metal mobs, just somewhat dismal).

Heavy Metal again. Curiouser & curiouser...


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:23 PM

"And when did I do that?"
All songs are folk! or did I get it wrong again?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: the Folk Police
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:32 PM

"Heavy Metal again. Curiouser & curiouser..."

Like this? Glorystrokes


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Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM

In a very real sense, collecting, cataloguing and preserving folk song for future generations is a lot like historical geology and archaeology. The more we uncover, the more we realize that we have barely scratched the surface. Every time paleontologists think they have a fair handle on the evolution of dinosaurs, a new one pops up to bring their theories into question once again.

I disagree that we have no more to discover. I think the definition of folk song, always a contentious subject, will continue to evolve. I also do not think that everyone who has something to contribute has been interviewed or recorded, despite all our excellent efforts. Stay tuned for further developments and keep the lamp lit in the meantime....


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