Does musician travel drive up cost?

Subject: Folklore: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:02 PM

I post this for thought. I dont have a problem with professional folk musicians. They are needed, need good wages and loads of support of all kinds.

However, recently I was looking into costs of folk music conventions.
3-400 dollars for a few days and that is advance registration. No room, no travel, no food.

I note that on face book musicians seem to regularly fly cross country.
Yes they need to follow the work and go places to make a living however....

Should a folk musician that travels more than the average person or can afford to attend expensive far away conferences, put out a tip jar?

Is this why - this added cost- why there are fewer venues and costs for those attending- the price of beer is getting prohibitive?

Just a quest for input. Ideas. Have any? Not picking on anyone just wondering.

I do realize that travel and conferencing have benefits - so do internet conferences and chat rooms and bulletin boards.

Don't know....just starting out on this quest for illumination.
Yes sora wish I could go to more conferences and attend more concerts but I can barely live with my cd purchase budget and can not afford travel and am stuck with cheap beer at retail prices.

Should folk musicians refuse to play where prices are ripping people off and keeping many locked out?

The world of wonder awaits your comment and creativity.
Remember- there is nothing wrong with Pro. folk musicians or for that matterr perhaps, bank executives.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folklore: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:39 PM

As a traveling folk singer once told me: "You don't pay me to play, you pay me to travel."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: mg
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:41 PM

Let t he market decide. If you can afford to do these things and people pay for them, fine. If not, keep your day job, do it for fun and as supplementary income. mg

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Hamish
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:59 PM

My personal scales include how much I want to do the gig and how far is it. A local gig I don't much fancy has got to be well paid. If I really want to do the gig then I'm happy to cover expenses (or less - so long as I feel the organiser isn't taking the p1ss)

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM

Valid points #1. but just because I can only afford to go to local cheap venues doesn't mean that folk performers should limit their playing choices.

Folk performers should play anywhere and everywhere they can.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:32 PM

"The Labourer shall be worthy of his hire " As Hamish said , even if you have a Day Job , ESPECIALLY with the cost of petrol in UK , if you are travelling any distance you HAVE to put up your price !

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:07 PM

Leadfingers

"if you are travelling any distance you HAVE to put up your price !

As I always say on these occasions, "Where do you think that money comes from?"

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:15 PM

Snail = You mean you would charge exactly the same for a local gig as for one Two hundred miles away ??

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

Answer the question Leadfingers. Where does the money come from?

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:05 PM

What is a "folk music convention"? Are they traditional?

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:07 PM

The money comes from the paying audience at the club so, in the end, it's down to the desire of the club to have a particular performer, and the desire of the performer to get a gig at that particular club. Hopefully a compromise is reached.

If the band I play in does a gig outside a local radius of around 30 miles from base, we cram as many of us into as few cars as possible, work out the petrol costs for the drivers and add that to the basic fee. What the basic fee is varies from gig to gig. If it's a wedding for a complete stranger, for example, we would charge around £100 a performer - plus the petrol costs. If it's a "mates or good causes" gig, then we adjust the fee accordingly.

If we can't agree the cash (which is rare), we don't do the gig!

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:53 PM

We work on the same basis as Will ! Though IF I am asked to do a solo , I AM a lot cheaper IF I think I will enjoy myself I tend to be a lot cheaper than if I am going to have to 'work' hard !

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM

Bit like soliciting really. Guitar instead of handbag.

Chas

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM

Absolutely - it probably was the oldest profession...

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

Will Fly

The money comes from the paying audience at the club

That is the fundamental point I was hinting at. I don't think you can tell the paying public that artist A is pretty much on a par with artist B but artist A has travelled 200 miles so you've got to pay more to see them. I think they might stay at home in droves. We can only pay you out of the money that people pay to see you. As Will says, if that isn't enough, don't take the gig.

As someone who does more booking than being booked, if someone told me they wanted more because they weren't going to enjoy the gig, that gives me two reasons not to book them.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:50 PM

Snail - I get asked to do a lot of gigs that have NOTHING to do with Folk Clubs . Folk Club work is ALWAYS good fun !

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:02 PM

Leadfingers, if you can persuade people to pay you on the basis of the distance you have travelled rather than what you do when you get there, then good luck to you, but I think folk club audiences are more inclined to pay for what they get.

That is all the money we have to pay you with.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM

Some great comments.

My main interest is access of audiences to music- the more access the more opportunity for transmission and inspiration of new works.

When venues hire people from far away, nothing wrong with it, expenses rightfully occur. It just costs.

What do you do with such expenses?

Seems to me that there are a few ways to deal with it.

-performer (who is generally making a profit from local gig costs lowers the inital fee to absorb some of the travel fee so that the gig does not cost entire local fee plus entire travel cost.

-venue operator- who is making significant profit lowers his or her profit on the out of town gig and perhaps a few subsequent local ones to absorb the cost of transportation making costs to patrons the same or only very slightly higher.

If these sort of things are not done one limits accessibility of the music via increasing costs and barring those without the means to pay.

One could go with what the market would stand however when one goes over that pricepoint the venue and the performer are out. While the venue may spring back they often just close and performers hang it up.

So going to the market's breaking point limits access as prices climb and soon no one can turn up.

Careful strategies it seems to me will help minimize limits of access to the music and traditions.

I don't think they are being utilized now.
But rather one fee is laid on the other and although a certain segment of the population is able to afford to attend a much larger segment is increassingly locked out- via economic discrimination.

This situation is very much like the Irish Potato Famine- its underlying cause was the reliance of a large population on a mono crop. The Potato. Once that crop failed there was nothing else.

This is happening now in the music biz. Especially Opera and classical music but I am seeing it in folk as well. Venues, cultural institutions have cultivate the wealthy elites at the expense of loosing middle class and lower income folks. Once the elites are hit by hard times there is no other group that can afford the artifically inflated costs that only the welthy elite could pay.

If more diverse populations could afford to attend there would be more stability. Venues would make up with volume that which they would loose in higher priced fees.

Another issue that I have seen in the artcar world is that importation of talent sucks the energy and motivation out of local talent and keeps the pool of locals growing. Over professionalization is making ordinary folk believe that they are unworthy so discourages participation.

Yes Folk conventions- one recent one in the USA costparticipants around $300 just to register not including travel, hotels, food....
As I said somewhere- If you tell me you can afford that I am not putting money in your tip jar. You should tip me for going into credit debt to attend and keep you at it.

I have nothing against professional musicians who are wonderful and probably under paid and under respected however, there are many players and dimensions of the market that also have to be considered.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM

I thought you were joking, at first. Then I read through the comments and see that you are serious!

You obviously haven't got a clue.

I make a living at folk music - a rather poor one, but it is my entire income. I live in a pretty big US city, yet there are very opportunities for me to work locally, on a regular basis. There are only so many venues and each of them is frequented by a pretty regular audience. As much as they like me, they don't want to see me over and over and over again. I even work in different types of venues in my home town just so I can stay home more often ... but at that, I still work in Dallas no more then twice in a month, and often not even that much.

On the other hand, there tens of thousands of venues within a plane ride or day's drive. So I can keep working several shows each work, if I am willing and able to travel. I don't travel because it's fun and exciting. Traveling sucks! I'd much rather be home - but if I'm going to make a living and if I'm going to get my music around, I have to travel. And yes, of course I have to recoup as much of my travel costs as possible from CD sales and performance fees. So when I work at home I can afford to do so for a bit less.

As for performance fees; that is a negotiated issue with every booking. The venues know what they expect to bring in and they know what their costs are. It's a pretty exact science. There is some guessing - but often the fees are set to attendance, and certainly overall profitability is affected by CD sales.

I find it hard to believe you resent this. If you think folk musicians are screwing the paying audience; you have a screw loose! Most of us are slowly going broke, just to support a way of life we love and wish to make work. I don't know any who are rich. You don't go into folk music to make money - that's for damn sure!

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Genie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM

This may be a bit tangential to your initial points, Peasant, but I provide music, as entertainment and as therapeutic recreation, for a wide array of senior communities (from alzheimer's units to nursing and rehab centers to independent living residences and drop-in senior centers). There are a lot of facilities around, both in Portland and in Seattle, and I find I can earn a living at it by having frequent clients in both cities.    But while I travel to Seattle to "gig," I find Seattle musicians coming to Portland to play here.    Even within cities, I know that I may be driving 30 miles across town to do a program on the west side while a west side entertainer is driving to my neck of the woods to do the same.

I would GLADLY knock $5 to $15 off my fee for 1-hour gigs if I could get the activity directors to help me avoid a lot of the travel time.   This could mean trying to hire mostly people who lived fairly close, or it could mean coordinating with the ADs of nearby facilities so we providers could do 2 to 4 gigs in the same area the same day. Also, if more ADs would schedule programs in the morning or early afternoon or after 6 PM -- or on weekends -- I could also lower my fees because I wouldn't so often get stuck in horrendous Friday afternoon or rush hour traffic. But I find most of the ADs either have never thought of this or just aren't willing to bend that way, even while they are complaining about their budget cuts.

So, in my case, YES, my sometimes-extensive travel does drive up my costs and thus what I need to charge.   

I considered joining the local musicians' union at one time, but their policies were that I had to charge at least $60 for a gig (back in the early '90s) -- even if it was a 30-min. gig 1 block from my house with no need for amps, etc.   OTOH, their rules would have allowed me to drive to the Oregon Coast and back for a 4-hour gig and still charge only $60.
This never made sense to me, as travel can easily take more time than the gig itself and cost a good chunk of whatever I'm being paid.   
Musicians could charge less and still have the same bottom line if they could get as many good gigs locally as they do on the road.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:13 PM

To the OP:

Do stupid questions as thread titles piss you off?

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:36 PM

I'll try to add some realistic numbers to this conversation. To make this relevent, you need to know that I live on the West coast of America, close to Seattle. Last Septmeber, "Bride Judy" and I did a 1,700 mile road trip ... many concerts, some TV and radio stuff, etc. One of the predictable venues we "set up" were public librarys.

It became clear to us that there is a "standard fee", if you will, that the major public librarys expect to pay for a presentation ... $200.

Now,in this time economic collapse, I can't predict if this expected "fee" will continue.

On our trip, we also set up several "private gigs" and we held to that $200 per performance.

Next comes the obvious question ... "how long is a gig?" I held that a "gig" was a concert, two hours, with an intermission. Any CD's I sold were my "profits."

No where on our trip did we run into any dispute about these prices.

I hope that my comments adds to this conversation and puts some numbers into the conversation.

By the way ... to Jed Marum ... I was the guy that collected the money for you at the house concert that Stew Hendrickson hosted for you a couple of years ago. I well remeber our conversation about your "life on the road." I don't know how you do it ... maybe you're younger than me? CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:13 PM

Yes, Bob - I remember you well! It is sometimes a grind - but I love the music! It keeps me going!

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Genie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:20 PM

BTW, I'm probably not alone in NOT charging extra for gigs* that involve extra travel -- though I will sometimes offer price breaks to those who book my less-often-demanded spots, if it's a low-budget facility.    I basically charge what the traffic will bear (which isn't a lot in the case of nursing homes and senior centers) and average out the costs. But if I didn't have to travel as much or at horrible traffic times, I'd be able to charge less (or I'd have a better bottom line).



*I call them "gigs" usually, even though most are only 1 hour, because it's easier and less awkward/formal than saying "engagements" or "paid music program." YMMV

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:27 PM

Jed-

I appreciate your need to work and your profession.

So many people can not afford to go out in my city to hear good folk music that it is unbelievable.

Your work would be more profitable if you could reach them and bring them into the tent.

Travel is important at times and helpful- I understand fully, however there is the necessity to have the costs absorbed before they reach the consumer or you will minimize the number of consumers.

If so many of the potential audience find the cost of attendance excessive, prohibitive they are being screwed, shunned by someone.
The fact that the venue or performer is content with the numbers that make it past the cost is irrelevant.

The point is what is keeping our music from being as affordable as it could be>? You may not be entirely responsible but somehow it should be fixable in some way.

If McDonalds was content with selling burgers to a small segment of the population then there would not be a mcdonalds on every corner as there is now.

If folk artists and venues maybe even brewers and distributors managed costs as well as fast food places folk venues like hamburger places would be on every corner too and you as the provider of "the beef" of the operation would be making more as well. There would even have to be more of you!

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:29 PM

Conrad, are you a working musician?

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:33 PM

Genie-

Yes! Developing a local pool of musicians is of great importance. That is where making sure that costs do not drive down demand.

I believe that there is potential for unions to do great work however they do not always do great work- simply consult the automobile market mess to find out.

One of the problems might also be over professionalization of the craft. This discourages ordinary folks from entering it therefore it keeps the supply of potential talent down which in the short run helps existing musicians but in the long run will keep the business from expanding.

Back to mcdonalds- If they insisted that every burger flipper be a vetted professional then they would never be able to expand. By taking most every worker and training them, accepting them the expansion was possible.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:37 PM

I remember years ago that there was a great debate in the British Folk Press about this very subject with passions running high on both sides. I suppose that it will always be a possible bone of contention.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:41 PM

Ordinary folk can't be musicians because we're thwarted by overprofessionalism of the craft?!


Wouldn't the mcdonald's comparison work better if you were talking about mainstream music?

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:49 PM

Guest 999-

I am many things-What is a "working" musician>?
Some of them are-

1. Visionary Artcar Artist- I accept money when offered.

2. I design and play Visionary musical instruments- Horn Hats, horn coat, horn cars- I accept money when offered.

3. I play tin whistle and Bones and alto horn and trumpet and "rough music" and sing. I accept money when offered

4. I am a storyteller and accept money when offered.

5. As a folklorist I have mastered and conduct rituals of celebration and accept money when offered.

6. I provide seasonal celebration events open to the public at no charge periodically throughout the year but accept donations when offered.

I do lots of things. My favorite example- I grow wonderful finger nails I guess I would take money when offered but I would surely not call it work or demand payment.

Some say I do things very well- some believe and have said at a professional level. Whatever that means is in the eye of some beholder and not from the perspective of any tradition as traditions would not care how well it is done just that it is being done.

Is all of this working- well .....lets see I could not do it while sleeping.

Those who know me will know that I believe that the folk world is a spectrum of many valid dimensions with each dimension of equal value.
As for songs and music- doesnt matter how well a song is played or sung what matters is that it is sung. My mind can fill in the gaps quite well. Traditions are bigger than money making, individuals, politics. We owe traditions an independence from worldly concerns as traditions are mysteries bigger than our petty desires.

So a quick response forgive me if it is unclear as it is an infinite topic of wonder and amazement for the most part.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:54 PM

Nice tap dancing.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:56 PM

BTW, I expect you are in a small country. Not USA, Australia or Canada for instance. In any of those countries, you wouldn't even ask the question were you a working musician.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:00 PM

cptsnapper-

I listen to 3-4 BBC regional folk programs a week.
Religiously..... (you uk folk keep paying your taxes thanks! If the BBC wants to take over our local stations go for it!)

Anyway.....

I am impressed with the similarity of the issues in UK and USA
I am particularly interested in the observation that the folk club is giving way to the regional or national commercial festival.

This is what I see so often in my area and in USA. Big gatherings with the same professional circut riding musicians and a decline in local performers with few or no regular venues and of the venues available these are prohibitively expensive.

Places where once I could spend an evening I now find my money gone in an hour or so.

We do have local societies however there too costs of admission to events are high (I believe a ticket should cost slightly less than a CD high is twice the cost of a cd or more, this is not to deny that costs of production are high but just says that cost of attendence is higher than is easily affordable by a large number) Also I find that folk societies have sterilized the tradition with dance in particular seeming to be more of an athletic event (sweat bands, running shoes, towels, healthy foods) than anything that would be anything close to traditional.

Yes I do not see it all but I have gone out to experience quite a bit event to the point of spending much more money than I have to spend.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:11 PM

Its not who is at your performance but the hundreds that did not come or were kept from attending by economics that matters. What have you done lately to keep them out or let them in more easily?

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:17 AM

What would it do to a cost of a hamburger if all the employees at a mcdonalds had to be flown in from several states away?

(well actually mcdonalds depends heavily upon mexicans and others from far away already however, they Lower costs unlike imported musicians which will drive costs up)

Why should we let this sort of thinking make the price of access to folk music impossible for so many?

Its sort of like art that is local is never as good as art that is far away where the grass is greener.

The problem self perpetuates. When venues put all their funds into outside far away super stars there is less money for the development and establishment of local talent.

Perhaps one way to do this is as in the baseball league system. They run teams at all levels not only the major league. If venues operated at several levels and perhaps even different locations a local folk scene would be nourished rather than the bank accounts of a few. This could be funded by contributions from the artist matched by the venue operators and by those who benefit via food and drink sales- breweries and the like.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:24 AM

Interesting that Conrad equates a Paid Folk Musician with an immigrant working in McDonalds . I never realised we were so well appreciated !!

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:52 AM

"What would it do to a cost of a hamburger if all the employees at a mcdonalds had to be flown in from several states away?"

If each burgerflipper had their individual and special variation on flipping a burger, and everything about the Big Mac they produced was predicated on their particular skills, style, taste and experience, the argument might have some validity.

As it is, you seem to be suggesting that all folk singers are essentially interchangable. Don't think you'll get many takers for this.

Talking to a friend who regularly used to book musicians to play live, lots of different factors come into play: the size of the proposed venue, what size of audience is likely, how much the organiser can afford, how much promotion and publicity they are able to do, how much the artist charges, what they themselves might do to promote the gig, the repuation of the organiser etc etc. In and amongst all these factors, a mutually acceptable fee would generally be agreed. If not, the gig didn't happen. He used to occasionally fly artists over from the States for one-off gigs who he knew would draw a big enough crowd to pay the performance fee and the air fare: in cases such as these transport costs did make a difference, but he was still able to make an informed decision based on likelihood of breaking even. Sometimes he did sometimes he didn't. The same outcomes applied to musicians coming a few miles down the road. What I do know is that if he hadn't been prepared to take a few risks with his money, I'd have missed a good few marvellous gigs... (Cheers, Nick!)

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:15 AM

Interesting that Conrad equates a Paid Folk Musician with an immigrant working in McDonalds . I never realised we were so well appreciated !!

so you think folk musicians are superior?
Don't think so you know that might be considered bigoted and intolerant. Maybe some of those immigrant workers are musicians?
The trouble is that they are inexpensive yet folk musicians are
more expensive. I can better afford to go to mcdonalds than to the Irish place downtown and listen to music and have dinner.

No I am not saying that folk musicians do not deserve a decent wage. They do. That said, there need to be more of them and the marketing arrangements need to be re-considered and some industry practices changed. Or its going to get worse and that means mcdonalds will still be in business and folk venues will be gone.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

Why do you suppose there are not more working Professional Folk Musicians? My guess is the venues are few and far between that will or can pay a living wage to the musician. Those venues won't stay open unless they can get the best available artists for an affordable price. This is a thin line. Three people have to be able to afford that price. The venue, the artist, and the audience.

The venue and the artist have to make a cash profit on the deal or there is no point in either being in business. And this is a business. The venue charges too much at the door for the drawing power of the artist and both lose out and the artist doesn't come back. The artist charges too little to the venue and they don't make as much as they should for the work they do so well. The audience profits in other ways.

In the free market and in the US a performer gets paid based on his or her skills and on the markets ability to support his or her skills. A market (Pick your venue) isn't going to pay $ 100.00 for 2 1/2 hrs. for Erstwhile but possibly talent less Endeavour when they can pay near the same amount and get Jed Marum or Deb Cowan or Seamus Kennedy.

But there is a hitch in this get along. Deb and Jed and Seamus all live over 100 miles away from the venue wanting their talents. That's and hour and a half one way to get to the gig while Erstwhile Endeavor (Endeavour for the Brits) lives one town over. That three hours of travel time for Deb, Seamus, and Jed can mean another local job if they want to book that tight.   So these people might ask for $ 125.00 for the gig and miss the chance to earn even more. This brings us back to two people deciding what is best for themselves business wise.

It is unfair to expect them to play the low priced gig and miss the potential for a second job because they are folksingers and that's what folksingers do. I did say it was unfair to expect, I don't believe it is unfair to ask because they might be on their way to another job someplace and this would be a good stop off point.

Back to Erstwhile Endeavour. This band or performer may be pretty good so the venue really should give em the chance to play and offer $50.00 on an off night and see how they do. It is never unfair to offer less up front as long as it is Erstwhile's decision to take the gig. And people all start somewhere.

There is much more to the answer to this question than the question asks. And also people have to start thinking that the music business is a business. As Jed said he is willing to get paid what he gets paid because he love the work. It is work I love and do a lot of it but it is a business.

The IRS treats it as a business and taxes it as a business. And as a business artistic value has little value as far as the tax code of the US is concerned unless you are James Taylor or Celine Dion. For my jewelry business the most I can claim on any of the 23 bracelets I donated last year is half the cost of the material I used. For me to donate my time as a musician which I do an awful lot I have to charge a venue/charity for the gig and then give it back to the venue/charity and get a letter saying thank you for your cash donation. This is only good if the charity is registered with The IRS. 18 of those bracelets were for benefits for children with cancer, a fireman who was hurt at a fire, the village library, my Mom's church bazaar, and the Mudcat.

So when I add an additional $25.00 to cover the gas I used driving the 400 miles round trip to Buffalo from my house in Jordan, NY ( the same as driving from London to Glasgow one way) you'll understand the why of it.   The answer to the question is "Yes it does and it should".

Don

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:30 PM

Does the expression "market price" have any meaning for any of you?

My old economics professor used to explain about square wheels made of butter by an expensive process costing £1M per wheel - could they be sold at a commensurate price when car wheels and tyres were whatever price they were?

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:23 PM

No

An organiser will pay what is possible. If the cost is too much, the organiser will not book said musician (travel or not). Likewise the musician has the right to not play, if the organiser can't meet their demands.

Supply and demand.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:27 PM

Don M...

A good description of what is happening.

Yes musicians are valid, good professionals who need to make a living.

I can't afford to fly anywhere.
Trouble is that a musician who can afford to fly in across country puts out a tip jar.

I tend to feel like I should put out the tip jar and they could help pay down the credit debt I get into when I go to their performances.

I beleive that there are ways to fix this without screwing either performer venue operator or customer.

Remember if not for audience there would be no venue.

As it is going now the numbers unable to afford to attend are growing.

Perhaps the answer is more performances, lower cost per audience member and with accessibility improved even greater profit will come through greater numbers.

Just because you get an adequate number of people attending who are wealthy enough to not feel the prices does not mean that you are getting all the audience you could by changing the paramaters.

I know how much I need to pay for a beer and it is dramatically less than I am bing ripped off for the same at a venue.

Yes what is happening is normal and understandable and not terrible. However even the best situations could use a wake up call.

That wake up call is - do something about the high costs for audience to attend or you will be all out of work.

Is it excessive perofit taking- not necessairly but look into that.
What is the profit of the venue you play at?
If it is excessive then demand that it be toned down a notch.
If no one is accumulating money then change something else. Situations will differ.

Essentially - Try something and dont think that the present situation is the best just because it seems to have been that way forever.

Remember- when you cultivate a mono crop and it fails yoiu loose totally. Never rely upon one income level of patron. Broaden the base eliminate economic descrimination even though it seems to pay well.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

I DONT see musicians putting out a Tip Jar if they are getting paid and the audience is paying admission ! If its a Walk In and buy a drink / meal . Tip Jar is there ! IF there is an admission charge , NO Tip Jar !
Conrad - Have you EVER Done a BOOKED paid Gig ? I have , in UK and outside UK - as well as in USA !

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:15 PM

Conrad Where are you? I know you are speaking English as am I but I'm hearing with American ears. How much money are these musicians you are talking about making in US dollars?

My band is a trio and we have in fact cut or prices by 25 %. For a small group that travel mostly NY state we giged 38 jobs last year We ask for $ 325.00 ( L 210.62) when close to home. Each man get $ 100.00 (L 64.81) and the $ 25.00 (L 16.2) goes for gas. If we break out to 50 to 100 miles from home we up the price to $ 350.00- $ 375.00.
(L 226.82- L 243.02) I don't think we are over charging anyone. Are you talking about the local talent or a regional act like Seamus or Jed?

Don

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:02 PM

Not bad. Perhaps the largest amount I ever got for exhibiting and talking about my artcar at a major event attended by thousands for which the artcar is a draw (is selected as the aspect of the festival photographed for promotional and coverage news stories) was around $325 and that was for ALL DAY plus three hours and that is the exception.
Artscape our largest festival one of the largest in the nation does not donate anything most places around $50. And yes I am a nationally known cartist having won top award at largest most important event. And yes I do not demand funding but accept it trying to work in whatever I can do for those who want me.
My costs are considerable- time, materials, transportation, gas, mechanical.....

Again note. I know that one has to make a living (I make debt but thats ok) and that is fine. You should make a living wage.

I am impressed that you were able to cut fees.

Wonderful-just so savings was past on to the audience not just to the venue.

I am also not saying that the musicians are the only problems as there are other parts of the food chain.

Drink distributors, venue operators, food producers and on it goes...
I would also blame the audience that does not shop around and pays too much just because they can.

Therefore I think the solution is to open the books. Is the audience getting the best deal possible? Are you playing at a venue where the greatest number of people given expenses can attend. If I played at a venue I would ask them to keep their prices down to reasonable and affordable then I would know that the audience would be as big as possible.

All is also not lost when you cut back. Other strategies can be employed to compensate. You could do more performances, do different styles of performance.

Human greed can mess up any food chain. But if it is located excessive profit taking can be fixed.

Also remember....you can stress out the market by keeping costs to what it can bear. When that happens everything stops.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM

Gosh Conrad, I am speechless.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:34 PM

Not exactly to the original point; but to the alternate question: "Do scalpers drive up the price." - (?)

Eagles band pinches scalpers with Live Nation price increases
BY ADAM SATARIANO
Bloomberg News

The Eagles were the first band to charge $100 for a concert ticket '16 years ago. Now the group is raising prices on prime seats, making the cheap ones cheaper and squeezing scalpers. The band's April 27 show in Sacramento, Calif., uses live Nation's "dynamic" ticketing service that mimics airlines' approach; a . first for a major group.

By setting 10 prices based on anticipated demand, instead of the usual two to four, the Eagles are selling seats closer to what they fetch on resale sites such as EBay's StubHub. "The idea is to shift the economic value from the brokers, who get the difference between the face value and the resale value, to the primary market where it can go to the artists, promoters and venue' operators," said Brett Harriss, an analyst with Gabelli & Co. in Rye, N.Y., which owns the shares.

The Eagles test highlights ticketing changes made possible by live Nation's merger last month with Ticketmaster Entertainment, a deal opposed by consumer groups. As the world's largest concert promoter, venue operator, ticket seller and manager of artists, the Beverly Hills, Calif.-based company has more leverage to make changes that drive revenue and profit.

Dynamic pricing has been tried by professional baseball teams including the San Francisco Giants. It uses technology to continually adjust ticket prices for some seats based on demand. At the 17,000-seatArco Arena, the Eagles are testing a limited version that set prices in advance. Aisle seats are worth more than those in the middle of a row, for example.

In some systems, changes can be made in real time. . The band and show organizers are keeping total ticket revenue comparable to other stops on the tour, which runs from April 16 to May 18, said Robbins. Eagles tickets priced as high as $250 are being used to reduce others to as little as $32, the lowest for the band since 1980.

[Apologies for a long post; but the article was in a print newspaper with a really crappy website that won't have it up for a week or so.]

John

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 08:08 AM

Conrad, you seem to be having trouble understanding some basic concepts.

A musician doesn't travel long distances to a gig because he is rich. He travels because he needs to do as many gigs as possible to earn a living. He needs to cover his travel costs out of the fee before he can begin to pay for food, rent, utilities, taxes and all the other costs of living. Once those costs are covered it would be nice to have a bit over as well. So he is entitled to charge a fee which makes the gig worth his while - if the practice is to put out a tip jar then that's part of it. The venue will only agree that fee if they believe the performer will attract a big enough audience at the right price. The audience will pay that price only if they believe the performer is worth it. You have to decide for yourself whether to pay that price (which may mean sacrificing something else). It all depends on how much you value that individual musician's music.

It's quite clear that you don't make a living as a cartist (if that's the right word). It's a hobby, so you can't compare it with people doing a professional job to earn a living.

You clearly manage to find money to spend on your artcar. So it's your own choice that you can't afford to go to gigs. It's up to you to decide your priorities, not up to musicians to sacrifice their standard of living so you can do both.

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Banjiman
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 09:01 AM

Hmmmmm......A few observations.

I book 30 - 40 acts per year in a UK concert based folk club. I do bear in mind the distance that an artists is travelling when agreeing fees. I'll also take into account how big an audience they are likely to draw and how keen our regulars are to see them. If I think they are asking too much as a fixed fee I'll agree minimum v door %.

With us running in a village hall and running a couple of mini-fests a year we use the bar & food profits from these to account for the club nights that we lose money.

My wife is developing a career as a full time folk singer/ musician and I can say without a doubt that most (but not all) bookers work on the same principles - she usually agrees a bigger fee for more distant gigs. This seems a reasonable approach to me as travel costs are so high.

I must admit that I am struggling to grasp the points being made by the OP.

Paul

Subject: RE: Does musician travel drive up cost?
From: Tom - Swords & Songs
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 09:03 AM

It seems to me that most of these comments are approaching things from the wrong direction.
A venue/promotor may want someone to do a gig at their club but it comes down to maths before compassion about whether expenses should be met.

The following sum is applied first:
(How many people will that person draw to watch a gig x what price can you reasonably charge) - the venue/promoter costs = the amount you can offer the musician to break even

If including expenses, the fee the musician wants is higher than this, then the gig can't happen.

It's not a matter of venues trying to rip off artists, or needing to pay more to cover expenses, it comes down to how much money they can afford to throw at it. If more people come than expected, everyone's a winner (especially if you're on a %age split). If less people come, then the venue/promotor loses. It's all a risk to everyone.

Therefore it's not what you deserve as a fee, it's what amount of money you'll bring in. Some of the finest musicians around may deserve to be paid loads but will only draw in a small crowd, whereas if you slap a pair of tits on a hairy bloke doing a one man tribute show to Abba then you'll pack the house.

Ta
Tom