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BS: Should you alienate Fascists?

*#1 PEASANT* 24 Feb 10 - 12:07 PM
Dave MacKenzie 24 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM
Amos 24 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Feb 10 - 12:13 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM
alanabit 24 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM
Ruth Archer 24 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM
Bill D 24 Feb 10 - 01:03 PM
Smedley 24 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM
Rapparee 24 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM
The Sandman 24 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM
The Sandman 24 Feb 10 - 01:21 PM
Bill D 24 Feb 10 - 01:24 PM
VirginiaTam 24 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM
Arkie 24 Feb 10 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,ifor 24 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM
Amergin 24 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Feb 10 - 03:21 PM
Bill D 24 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Feb 10 - 04:45 PM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM
Royston 24 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM
mousethief 24 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM
Amergin 24 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,number 6 24 Feb 10 - 05:03 PM
Ebbie 24 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM
akenaton 24 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM
TheSnail 24 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM
VirginiaTam 24 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM
VirginiaTam 24 Feb 10 - 05:43 PM
mousethief 24 Feb 10 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,The Folk E 24 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM
pdq 24 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM
akenaton 24 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM
akenaton 24 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM
artbrooks 24 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM
Riginslinger 24 Feb 10 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,999 24 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 10 - 09:01 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Feb 10 - 09:15 PM
Riginslinger 24 Feb 10 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,999 24 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Feb 10 - 10:12 PM
GUEST,999 24 Feb 10 - 10:16 PM
Amergin 24 Feb 10 - 10:21 PM
mousethief 24 Feb 10 - 10:24 PM

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Subject: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:07 PM

Seems to me that fascists should be as welcome in any audience for folk music as anyone else of any number of alternative life styles and beliefs.

When folk musicians campaign against them they are simply cutting off a part of the free world and denying others a point of view. So you dont worry that they will not turn up at your concerts or buy your cds?

My worry is that they will be turned off from folk music in general and that is not a good thing as we need as much cultural transmission as possible.

IMHO politics shoiuld not be put between a performer and a member of the audience or turn off potential audience.

This does not mean that a folk artist can not express themselves but that it would be more tolerant to respect the views of others and play songs of all points of view.

Should folkies distance themselves from the rest of the world by taking sides in politics?

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

"Should folkies distance themselves from the rest of the world by taking sides in politics?"

Shouldn't that be: Should folkies distance themselves from the rest of the world by not taking sides in politics?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

Ummm...fascists, by definition, are not much part of the free world, there, #1. They're kind of committed to the reduction of freedom.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:13 PM

Wanker


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM

They are still people and many folkies seem to want to put them down for their beliefs. Is that the role of anyone trying to extend or preserve a centuries old tradition(s) that is in need of assistance from everyone.

When you hang a political sign on your work you limit your audience.
Audiences are already small enough.

You must extend to folks the tolerance you desire for yourself.

Politics can be in music and song but should not be used to exclude folks from music or song no matter what their belief.

Folk musicians against whatever is not helpful.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM

I am not necessarily against any person. In fact I am very much for people of all shades of opinion. Unfortunately this leaves me rather ill equipped to deal with fascists, who see the world rather differently. I will play music in a room containing child molestors as long as no actual child molesting goes on in the same room. My problem is that I feel that fascism has about as much moral basis as child molesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Many folk musicians do not want their music being used as a tool by fascists. Many in the folk community also do not wish to see English traditions harnessed to the BNP's political agenda. That is the issue. Not which individuals choose to attend concerts, and what their own political beliefs might be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:03 PM

I can't imagine how I'd recognize a fascist in an audience or group of musicians if all they are doing is music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Smedley
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM

I can just see the posters:

THIS THURSDAY
LOWER CLUTTERBUCK FOLK CLUB PRESENTS
SETH TWANG AND HIS RUSTIC FUNSTERS
FASCISTS WELCOME


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM

I alienate everybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

Yes.


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Subject: BS: SHOULD WE ALIENATE PSYCHOPATHS
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:21 PM

Seems to me that psychopaths should be as welcome in any audience for folk music as anyone else of any number of alternative life styles and beliefs.

When folk musicians campaign against them they are simply cutting off a part of the free world and denying others a point of view. So you dont worry that they will not turn up at your concerts or buy your cds?

My worry is that they will be turned off from folk music in general and that is not a good thing as we need as much cultural transmission as possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:24 PM

One wonders... (perhaps 2 or 3 wonder).. if you, Conrad, have BEEN excluded from some event(s) for your political leanings?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM

hhmmm as the OP spelling of thread title is questionable, should we give the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he was referring to the one time online fashist (fashion) ezine?


naaaa!

Pretty rich, him asking for tolerance for people who exhibit none.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Arkie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:48 PM

I do not know who is being labeled fascist here, but those I would consider fascist have no interest in free speech, except for themselves, free thought, or folk music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

The BNP is a party of thugs, racists and bigots. It's original leader, John Tyndall, was an open nazi who prided himself on his Hitler worship, anti semitism and violent racism.He can be viewed on google images in fill nazi regalia.He also had a string of criminal convictions for a range of serious offences.
His successor,the expublic schoolboy Nick Griffin is a former youth leader of the vile National Front and has been involved in far right and racist politics since his schooldays. He is has a race hate conviction for anti semitism [1998].
But the BNP is a party full of convicted criminals...terrorism, sex crimes, violent assault, murder, football hooliganism wife beating, bomb making and much much more.
If we ever let those violent characters get to power we would be dragged into a state of racial barbarism.
Fascists welcomed to any music audience.I think not!Woody Guthrie had the right idea!
Ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM

Well considering the bigotry he has displayed in the past, I am not surprised by this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:21 PM

Why was the title changed to hide the fact that the OP managed to display his erudition by writing "Fashists"? Has fascism a guardian angel amongst the elves?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM

Richard...only the title was spelled wrong...his post spelled it correctly.

Some errors are merely being in a hurry and hitting 'enter' to soon.

I assume a moderator fixed it simply to facilitate future searches and avoid confusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:45 PM

So you don't like them ignore them but don't confuse music with politics by taking sides.....as in saying all folkies should hate X
no reason to do that

What has what a party does with music to do with music.
Whenever folkies decide to cut themselves off from a segment of the population they are being intolerant and it makes people from that segment of the population feel unwelcome and we cant afford to do that.

So have your politics but dont suggest that folkies have the time to make political affiliation a major issue. It benefits no one. You can have politics in your music but you should not use music as a tool for or against any group. You may wish to consider playing music from both sides to demonstrate that tolerance. Why aren't more songs of fascism sung. All songs are treasures, the art is more than the message.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM

Richard, I changed the thread title so people could find the damn thread. The initial title remains in the initial messages. Thread titles are used to index threads, not to make statements or the show the thread originator's erudition or lack thereof. The intent is to have a thread be a discussion of the topic on hand, not of the abilities of the original poster.
That being said, I personally think it's a stupid topic for discussion.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Royston
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM

Fasscist alienate themselves. Good riddance.

I wouldn't advocate a door policy at folk gigs, that's silly. If fascists feel unwelcome, that's because they are unwelcome.

I think anyone can change the thread title at any time, that will be proven if this reverts to "Fashist" from this point forward.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

Don't confuse music and politics? How can you separate them? Music and politics are part of life. How can I want to share music and good times, and at the same time want to quash freedom and human rights?

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM

Deutschland erwache!

Germany awake from your nightmare!
Give foreign Jews no place in your Empire!
   We will fight for your resurgence!
   Aryan blood shall never perish!

All these hypocrites, we throw them out,
Juda leave our German house!
   If the native soil is clean and pure,
   we united and happy will be!

We are the fighters of the NSDAP
True Germans in heart, firm and tough in our Struggle
To the Swastika, devoted are we
Hail our Leader, Hail Hitler to thee!


Blut muss fließen

    Sharpen the long knives on the pavement,
    let the knives stab into the Jews body.

    Blood must flow extreme extensive
    and we shit on the freedom of this Jews Republic.

    Tug the concubine out of the rulers bed,
    grease the guillotine with the Jews fat.

    Blood must flow extreme extensive
    and we shit on the freedom of this Jews Republic.

    There's a black pig hanging in the synagogoue,
    throw the grenades into the parliaments.

    Blood must flow extreme extensive
    and we shit on the freedom of this Jews Republic.



So, Conrad you think songs like these are art? Where is the art? All I see is hatred...songs to corrupt the misguided working class to follow in lock step their corporate masters. Go put on a blue shirt and march.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:03 PM

I thought fascists only like Wagner ... why would they go to a folk music venue.


ok ... I'm outta here.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

Should you alienate Fascists? You mean, so that you can stay on their good side?

I know some rare musicians who are conservative in their political views, but not, to my knowledge, fascist. Whenever they sing a political song their known views always color my views. However, - and it always surprises me!- their political stance doesn't take away from their talent. :)

That said, I'm speaking only of right-wing politics; if they were openly racist, (or specist- a sop to Little Hawk's friend) or unpleasantly classist or a number of other 'ists' I would not have them in my home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

Folk music seems to attract "the left", perhaps through its history in the US, where the banner was carried by members of the Communist Party...and in the UK many of the founding fathers were Communists or hard left activists.

These people inspired me to join the C P and remained a member for most of my life.....They fought for freedom from the slavery of capitalism, freedom of thought and discussion and to change society in a meaningful, perhaps Utopian way.

Many would have called them fascists, as they were so committed, but I never would.

In contrast today's left are fascists to a man, each one enmeshed in the minutiae of modern left wing politics, none with the wish to change anything of substance, only silence any form of dissent.
Folk music in general, and this forum in particular is full of them.

I would say, get the fascists out of folk music and give it back to the revolutionaries!!

Woody, leadbelly, Ewan.....must be turning in their graves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM

*#1 PEASANT*

Why aren't more songs of fascism sung.

Did a human being capable of finding W on the keyboard really type that sentence?

Is anybody really trying to reason with this git?


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Subject: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

Ok I have avoided the FA****** word that got one thread stopped.

Is it helpful for folkies to appear to project one political polarity or another or should folkies try to appear more tolerant and even handed concentrating on the art of the music and the literary merit of the lyrics and the fit between the two?

Music is music. A good set of constructed words, a good well constructed tune and a good match of the two. Who cares what the political message? We are not here to promote hate, promote love, hate those who hate, love those who hate - these things are not music. Music is so much more.

Do we not loose audience each time we try to project some sort of political badge or affiliation which all folkies should subscribe to as in lets be anti this or pro that?

Why is it so hard to simply regard music and lyrics as art without dwelling on the goodness of the political message which itself is only a small part of any song.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

The problem is that a political agenda is co-opting folk music. If traditional songs are in danger of fading in the wash of mass produced popular music, why should it be further threatened by associations with a monstrous political agenda?

I don't see why reasonable people shouldn't want to protect the music from such associations.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:43 PM

And sure as I know jack shit from applebutter, that comment will get me back on the BNP fakebook shit list. Well good.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:43 PM

No, Fascism is not allowable in folk music.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: GUEST,The Folk E
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

Too many folksingers are trying to save the world, spouting politics, etc.

While they are doing this, I am the one getting the gigs entertaining people who really only want to hear some music.

Keep it up!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: pdq
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM

Imagine going to a Socialist rally and having a Folk concert break out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM

OK, Conrad, I talked with the volunteer who closed the original thread, and we agreed to combine threads and allow them to continue as a non-music thread - until the usual riot takes place. We certainly would not want to alienate any fascists...

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM

Isn't that "Fashits"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM

VT....Didnt the political agenda of the real left (Woody Ewan etc) co opt folk music?

Wasn't that what the revival was all about?

Seems to me, fascist to say it must always be OUR agenda!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

How does one go about alienating a Fascist? ;-)























I bet it's the same way one alienates most people...

Disagree with him.
Disapprove of him.
Pick a fight with him over his beliefs.
Let him know you can't stand him.
Point out all the things you don't like about him.
Demand that he be excluded from society.
Make him well aware that he is as the dirt beneath your noble shoes.

Etc...

Really quite simple when you think about it. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM

That's REAL irony folks.....just like they do it in the good ole UK!

Nice one Hawk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

Are we talking about F/fascists, who have a distinct political and economic philosophy, or are we back on the BNP, whose core philosophy (as far as I can tell) is basic bigotry thinly disguised as appreciation for traditional (don't start!) values? If the former, probably. If the latter, certainly - if you have the time to waste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:46 PM

Yeah, I guess in its purest form fascism is just an
economic system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

"Should you alienate Fascists?"

Every single one of the bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:01 PM

I don't think it can be defined as an economic system, Rig...although economics is definitely part of it.

What it strikes me as is an attitude of exclusivity and innate superiority to those who are considered "outsiders" in any sense; the establishment of an elite power group of rulers who are essentially above the law...though they're very eager to use the law to keep other people in line...; and an outright worship of militarism, weaponry, the armed forces, and exagerrated patriotism of every kind.

One sees these characteristics clearly in all the famous fascist systems of the 30s and 40s...plus in a great many systems now who have historically prided themselves on the fact that they fought and defeated fascism!

I shall name no names.... ;-)

One thing you have to really watch out for in this world is someone who swears up and down that he is a fervent anti-fascist (and no doubt believes it)....yet he behaves just like a fascist himself as soon as he has the power to.

That's a very common phenomenon in this world.

You can also have fascists, in my opinion, who are socialist or communist as well as fascists who are capitalist. We've had a whole series of fascists of those types. They may not agree on economic systems...but they do agree on raw power, ruthlessness, dishonesty, militarism, imperial conquest, institutionalized prejudice, and theft.

And they feel bloody well righteous and noble while they're doing it too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:15 PM

Thanks to the management!

Music and tradition have to flow. We have to get songs and traditions through time-person to person, one to another and place to place.

Whenever we keep anyone from helping with that process we set it back and we have a hard enough job anyway.

Its bad enough that you don't agree with a group or party but why would you wish to keep them from sharing your music and what would be wrong with sharing theirs.

So maybe you can recite a disclaimer- The songs I am about to sing I love as art but do not necessarily agree with the content.

The art of writing notation, pairing it with lyrics and composing verse. Nothing political in that and that is what we glorify in music not the content.

If a person considering folkmusic- to attend, listen to, purchase, play, compose, sing, arrange.....ever says

"I would do it but that is music of people who believe "xyz" and is not for me"

WE have lost out, we have won nothing we have only discouraged others from appreciating what we appreciate.

Folk music is not a political party. Folkies should not act like a political party. They should remain neutral as a group but free as individuals. Once we are perceived as a polarized politically biased against any group we loose because it is not for us to consider politics- just to consider music.

The wonder of folk music is that it has risen above political concerns to continue. We need to keep it that way. As with the gunpowder plot. The celebration and customs of bonfire could continue because both king and parliament were saved by the discovery of the plot. When each took turns at power the customs could continue with the victor's blessing. What would happen if the political party you hated came to power after you had succeeded in booting them out of your musical tradition and alienating them from enjoying it? Not a chance whereas if you agree to disagree on politics and share the music it will have a much better chance.

A reflection on my personal history. In my conservative american household in the 50s we listened to a wide variety of music- classical, european, american, jazz. My father played folk music.
When Pete Seeger covered himself with the red flag hammer and sickle
a political barrier to his folk music was created. One had to look past his politics to see the music. He was banned from our patriotic household. I did not listen to his music till much later. Had Seeger kept his politics to his personal off stage expression his music might have been seen by more. One thing that Seeger has eventually done has been to try to perform the music of both sides of issues. This is important. This side sang this the other that. All good songs no matter what the politics projected by each.

Go forth and collect the songs of all people, admire them for their craftmanship and wonder you can do so without tarnishing them with politics or philosophy. Look to the popularity of gaelic songs. Hardly anyone knows what they mean in the mass market yet the artistry comes through in many dimensions.

I once gave a bartender a cassette of orange songs to play in a predominantly republican leaning bar in Baltimore during the break of a live performance. The bartender played the songs. The large crowd enjoyed them lyric composition tunes. Hands clapped, the music reached the people.....until a hot headed accordion player was told by me what was playing....he then insisted that politics was more important than art and ripped the cassette from the player.

We have so few listeners and helpers. We can not afford setbacks caused by wrapping folk music in exclusionary banners and political litmus tests.

Conrad Bladey
Peasant


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:52 PM

I don't see how Pete Seeger could have been anyone but who he was. He paid for it, but anything else would have been dishonest.

    "I don't think it can be defined as an economic system, Rig...although economics is definitely part of it."


             I've done no research to prove it, but my understanding of fascism is simply "Corporate Control of Everything." One votes, in a sense, by buying stock in a company, or not buying in another. The fascist governments in Europe in the 1930's-1940's brought racism and antisemitism to the table for political purposes, but I don't think the original concept of fascism had anything to do with race or ethnicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM

Tell me, Conrad, would you feel the same about Nazis?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:12 PM

I would gladly listen to Natzi music, put the politics out of the mind and evaluate the construction of the tune, the composition of the verse, rhyme scheme,relationship of words to tune politics has so little to do with the entire treasure of a multi dimensional folksong.

I was listening to a haitian songwriter politico the other day. I do not understand the language. I thoroughly disagreed with the politics for the most part but really liked the sound and flow of the music and lyrics.

To cut people off from music or music off from people just because of one of its dimensions or an association is wrong.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:16 PM

Thank you for your answer.

I disagree with you, but I suspect no argument will convince you otherwise. Best to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:21 PM

So you must like the song lyrics I posted above. lyrics like "Sharpen the long knives/let the knives stab into the Jew's body."

Those are English translations of Nazi propaganda. Like stated before you bigotry does not surprise me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:24 PM

How do you know you disagree with the politics, if you don't understand the language?


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Mudcat time: 28 July 1:05 PM EDT

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