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BS: The Republicans (US)

dick greenhaus 27 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 11 - 01:39 PM
Sawzaw 27 Jul 11 - 01:29 PM
Donuel 25 Jul 11 - 05:16 PM
Donuel 25 Jul 11 - 05:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Jul 11 - 06:37 AM
Sawzaw 25 Jul 11 - 02:34 AM
Sawzaw 25 Jul 11 - 02:01 AM
Sawzaw 24 Jul 11 - 05:22 PM
Don Firth 23 Jul 11 - 01:57 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 01:11 PM
saulgoldie 23 Jul 11 - 01:06 PM
Bobert 23 Jul 11 - 12:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 09:02 AM
GUEST 23 Jul 11 - 08:54 AM
Greg F. 23 Jul 11 - 08:47 AM
Sawzaw 22 Jul 11 - 11:30 PM
Sawzaw 22 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM
Sawzaw 22 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM
Bobert 21 Jul 11 - 08:51 PM
Greg F. 21 Jul 11 - 08:47 AM
Sawzaw 21 Jul 11 - 08:08 AM
Max 20 Jul 11 - 12:07 AM
GUEST,TIA 19 Jul 11 - 10:36 PM
Sawzaw 19 Jul 11 - 10:00 PM
Sawzaw 19 Jul 11 - 09:17 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Jul 11 - 04:52 PM
Sawzaw 19 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 11 - 08:54 AM
GUEST 14 Jul 11 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,TIA 14 Jul 11 - 04:07 AM
Don Firth 13 Jul 11 - 09:22 PM
Bobert 13 Jul 11 - 08:48 PM
Don Firth 13 Jul 11 - 08:45 PM
Donuel 13 Jul 11 - 04:57 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM
Sawzaw 13 Jul 11 - 09:04 AM
Sawzaw 09 Jul 11 - 12:17 AM
Bobert 06 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM
Don Firth 06 Jul 11 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,TIA 06 Jul 11 - 01:23 PM
Sawzaw 06 Jul 11 - 01:02 PM
Sawzaw 06 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM
Sawzaw 06 Jul 11 - 11:37 AM
Bobert 06 Jul 11 - 11:14 AM
Bobert 06 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Jul 11 - 03:30 AM
Don Firth 06 Jul 11 - 01:17 AM
Sawzaw 06 Jul 11 - 01:01 AM
Don Firth 06 Jul 11 - 12:59 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM

The current GOP stand is like saying to your wife:"If you don't stop spending o much, I won't pay the mortgage." The National Debt is money we OWE , not money we might or might not spend.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 01:39 PM

Republicans warned about Freddy and Fannie.

Some Republicans did. So did some Democrats.
Most Republicans voted for their policies and implied guarantee, warnings or not.

Notwithstanding that. Their bailout dwarfs that of the regular banks and that was still Paulson's Bailout. Blaming that part of the debt on the Obama is pure fantasy. Likewise AIG.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 01:29 PM

Republicans warned about Freddy and Fannie and Democrats attacked them saying there was nothing wrong with them.

So what about them do you want to know?

I never said all of the Tarp Money was paid back. I said it was not spending.

LA Times

The Treasury Department has recovered 70% of the money distributed under the $700-billion bailout fund after American International Group paid back $6.9 billion of the money it owed.

AIG made the repayment Tuesday after selling its holdings in MetLife last week. About $59 billion in Troubled Asset Relief Program money still is invested in AIG.

AIG received about $125 billion in a complex, multi-step bailout from the Treasury and Federal Reserve starting in the fall of 2008. The government owns 92% of AIG after a stock-conversion deal completed in January that was part of an effort to recapitalize the insurance company and unwind the federal stake.

The Fed has about $39 billion invested in AIG. The Congressional Budget Office estimated in November that the government would lose $14 billion on the AIG bailout. But after the stock-conversion deal and a rise in AIG's stock price, the Fed and the Treasury Department have said they did not expect to lose any money.

AIG's repayment brings to $287 billion the total TARP money recovered, the Treasury Department said. Although Congress put $700 billion into the fund, the department disbursed only $411 billion.

We're optimistic that as we continue to wind down TARP, our temporary investments in private companies will ultimately result in little or no cost to taxpayers taken as a whole, said Tim Massad, the Treasury official who oversees TARP.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated in November that TARP would lose $25 billion. The White House has estimated a $48-billion loss. But with potential profit from the AIG stock, which will be sold over time, the projected loss drops to $28 billion.

For taxpayers to break even on the 1.655 billion shares of AIG common stock they now own, they would need a price of $28.72 a share. Tuesday's closing price for AIG stock was $37.31.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:16 PM

Regarding Republicans, The unfavorable poll stands at 69%
The second highest unfavorable rating in 20 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:11 PM

Jack, putting arsonists in the fire department
is good for jobs.


Sawz has to ignore all the bills that this Republican COngress has passed or even proposed this session.

Why?
Because there is not one job creation bill. In fact there are 3 job destorying bills. Lots of abortion bills, but no jobs.

Sure if things/economy stay bad or even get worse, a Republican President could say after 3 years, "See how much better things are now?" THis is the LImbaugh declaration.

Yes even a default is an opportunity for the rich. One could buy gold now, wait until the default scare pushes it up 10% or more and if normalcy resumes immediately sell. Default would cause massive inflation but for those 400 guys who own more than bottom 90%, they would become relatively richer. Too bad for those 401K peons.

Exculpatory facts do not penetrate the skulls of the American public.
What does is the man who yells LIAR, or a LImbaugh pronouncment or the huge giant unbeliable lie. Truth is but a victim. For these reasons the Republicans are going 'all in' in order to try to blame Obama for the ********** default.

LIE HARD,
staring the House Republicans, Produced by Right wing think Tanks, Owned by Koch and Friends. A mighty 400 production.

Example: Obama has no plan, Obama has not led, Obama should shut up and let COngress work, Obama should stay off TV, Obama is missing in action, Obama will cut your S Security despite having the money, Obama lies. Obama can not have an adult conversation, Obama veto sent us into default, Obama switched the goal posts, STOP ALL SPENDING TO SAVE THE ECOMOMY AND STOP TAXING JOB CREATORS.


jEEZ, WHEN NO ONE SPENDS, it is the definition of a recession.





but it is not working this time. 71% think the Republicans are pushing us into default.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:37 AM

Yeah Sawzaw? How much has been returned by AIG? Or Freddy and Fannie?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 02:34 AM

"new spending...Paulson's bailout"

One of these days a huge lightbulb is going to light up in the heads of the people that characterize TARP as spending will realize that Tarp money was not spent but loaned out to be paid back with interest. It was written into the legislation

Understanding TARP

For instance Wells Fargo got $25 Billion and paid it back plus $1.4 billion interest.

JP Morgan got $25 Billion and paid it back plus $1.7 billion interest.

Not all of it has been paid back yet but every time some of it is paid back the Obama administration hoots about how They have heroically gotten the money back for the American people when in actuality it has to be repaid by law.

In the legislation says the the TARP money loaned plus the interest must go into back into the treasury.

Does it go there? Or does it go into actual real spending, money that will never be returned to the treasury, on programs like cash for clunkers?

Why would it not be returned to the treasury? Because that way it goes on President Bush's tab as deficit spending by the Bush administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 02:01 AM

"and now are trying to twist history into their usual mythology and pin the bills themselves on Obama???"

Somebody is trying to twist the fact that Democrats, since they gained the Majority in the 2006 election, either voted for or didn't vote against all of the bills that increased the national deficit including raising the debt ceiling and blame it on Republicans who had the minority.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:22 PM

"big ol' spending spree" Like $3+ million turtle tunnels? Like treadmills for shrimp?

That $787 Billion ARRA was going to fix the economy as it was after whatever spending from the previous administration that the Democrats voted for but want to deny. It was going to keep unemployment below 9%
The CBO Congressional Budget Office said that in the absence of a stimulus plan, the unemployment rate would rise above 9 percent.

The Job Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan report from Christina Romer, chairwoman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, and Jared Bernstein, the vice president's top economic adviser projected that the stimulus plan proposed by Obama would create between three and four million jobs by the end of 2010.

ESTIMATES OF JOB CREATION FROM THE
AMERICAN RECOVERY AND REINVESTMENT ACT OF 2009


As of the 4th Quarter of
2009 1.5 million
2010 3.5 million
2011 1.7 million
2012 0.3 million

Average for the Year
2009 0.7 million
2010 3.0 million
2011 2.5 million
2012 0.7 million

Gee, what happened?

Another $410 Billion Omnibus spending bill didn't fix anything either.

So now what?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:57 PM

". . . return to the robber baron days of royalty and poor masses."

Right! That becomes increasingly evident if one is paying attention. I tend to think that the ultimate goal is not only to tear up the Constitution, but to set fire to the Magna Carta as well.

All the way back to the feudal system!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:11 PM

Voting for Republicans is like putting arsonists in the fire department.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: saulgoldie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:06 PM

Republicans insist that government doesn't work. Then they get elected and set about to prove it. If they can cripple the government, then it can't deliver any of those nice little social programs and regulation that most people say they want. Result: return to the robber baron days of royalty and poor masses.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:55 PM

Exactly, JtS... The Repubs and Bush had themselves a big ol' spending spree and left the bills for Obama to pay and now are trying to twist history into their usual mythology and pin the bills themselves on Obama??? But this is all the Repubs have left... They nearly collapsed the economy with their dumb-headedness so they just invent and reinvent new stories and use their massive media ownership and $$$ advantage to try to ram these new stories into folks heads... Doesn't change the fact that these stories are fictional...

94 cents of every national debt dollar was inherited by Obama... Bills that Bush and Clinton and Daddy Bush and Reagan ran up before Obama was inaugurated... Actually, it's closer to 95 cents but who is counting... The Repubs certainly aren't...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:02 AM

Sawzaw,

Here is most of the new spending.

"I am convinced that this bold approach will cost American families far less than the alternative — a continuing series of financial institution failures and frozen credit markets unable to fund economic expansion," Paulson's bailout

Also two wars the Bush did not count in his budget.

Also the Stimulus which was a response to Mr Paulson's and Mr Bush's failures.

Also the deficit has grown since 2008 in no small part due to decreased revenue due to the recession. In fact, you said that deficit went up, but other than the bailouts and the stimulus, I can think of no new spending.

I can think of nothing on a par with the Republicans expansion of medicare entitlements or their reckless decreases in marginal tax rates.

It would have been nice if Mrs Pelosi had been able to keep her promise. But when The Republicans caught the house on fire, the Democrats had to try to but the fire out.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:54 AM

Bush's last annual budget deficit was for 2009 which was in place when Obama was inaugurated came in at...

...$1.4T

Obama's first annual budget deficit for 2010 came in at...

...$1.3T

WTF???

Obama actually cut $100B in annual budget deficits with his first budget??? Say it ain't so... I mean, horrors... I mean, that ain't what the right wing bloggers are sayin'... No, they aren't... They skip right on past the inconvenient truths, twist on the numbers and go right back to "accumulated national debt" because they are trying to put the 94 cents on the dollar of national debt that Bush handed off to Obama squarely on Obama... A lot of those 94 cents on the dollar were for Bush's wars and Bush's tax cuts...

In other words, the right wing doesn't want people to know the truth...

In other words, they are being completely dishonest...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:47 AM

"actual fact"[as opposed to a false fact?] Please provide an example....

And the point of trying to reach a reasoned accommodation with a crazy person would be what, exactly?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:30 PM

When Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) gave her inaugural address as speaker of the House in 2007, she vowed there would be "no new deficit spending". Since that day, the national debt has increased by $5 trillion, according to the U.S. Treasury Department.

"After years of historic deficits, this 110th Congress will commit itself to a higher standard: Pay as you go, no new deficit spending, Pelosi said in her speech from the speaker's podium. Our new America will provide unlimited opportunity for future generations, not burden them with mountains of debt."

Pelosi has served as speaker in the 110th and 111th Congresses.

At the close of business on Jan. 4, 2007, Pelosi's first day as speaker, the national debt was $8,670,596,242,973.04 (8.67 trillion), according to the Bureau of the Public Debt, a division of the U.S. Treasury Department. At the close of business on Oct. 22, it stood at $13,667,983,325,978.31 (13.67 trillion), an increase of 4,997,387,083,005.27 (or approximately $5 trillion).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM

"actual fact"[as opposed to a false fact?]

Please provide an example instead of your constant rhetoric, logical fallacies ad hominem attacks.

You do have some fact to present don't you?

About that remark above, it was Bobert talking to himself.

Normal... Just another day...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM

"But, Bobert, them folks ain't got nuthin'... Shoot, if ya gave 'um anythin' then they'd just get drunk on it 'cause that's all that niggas know how to do with anything that the gov'ment sends 'um"


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 08:51 PM

Garbage in = garbage out = Sawz...

Normal... Just another day...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 08:47 AM

discussion of the actual facts

Sawz, you wouldn't know an "actual fact"[as opposed to a false fact?] were it to rise up on its hind legs and bite you on the arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 08:08 AM

Tia:

The same no wiggle room. The Republicans did it words you posted have3 been cut and pasted in several places on the net.

I asked you if you followed the links to the actual data like you told me to do.

I did and reported what I found. Did you do the same or do you just tell people to do things that you do not do?

Did you follow my links to the actual data? I did not cut and paste them. I found them myself.

Your comment on Koolaid is a rhetorical device that does not prove or disprove anything except a propensity to use rhetoric as a substitute for logic.

All I am asking for is mutual respect and discussion of the actual facts, not personal attacks and rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Max
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 12:07 AM

Wow. So this is what BS threads are like? Never actually looked at one.

Sorry to interrupt this lovely highbrow intellectualism folks, but just wanted to let you know about this really weird error we've been getting lately.

Adds (provocateur) to a person's username, logs them out and won't let them log back in to that membership until they validate that the email address they used when they created their member profile is actually valid.

Strangest thing...

Well goodnight gang. Hope the weird error doesn't get you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 10:36 PM

Wrong.
On several counts.
Follow the links to the actual data.
Nahh. Never mind. Take another chug of the Kool Aid instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 10:00 PM

By the way, TIA cut and pasted her "no wiggle room" from a blog
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2748703/posts

Did she look at the actual facts?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 09:17 PM

You know TIA it is funny but I see nothing on that site about the deficit run up by Carter and Clinton.

How come?

You can check the facts here where they are not "interpreted" for you.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

Warning: This is only for people that can analyze facts and draw their own conclusions.

Zfacts: "The National Debt. They started building the trap [that little bit of rhetoric should be a clue] in 1982. That's when the debt started going up (national debt graph) [which actually shows "Debt Compared to National Income" instead of national debt] after 35 years of going down from it's 120% peak in 1947."

Hmmmm according to the historical data at the US Treasury the deficit was 1,142,034,000,000.00 in 1982, up from the $771,544,000,000.00 that Carter began with, and $258,286,383,108.67 in 1947

So simple math tells me that the national deficit increased by $258.3 billion from 1947 to 1962 while the website says it decreased.

The zfacts site keeps mentioning budgets but what matters is the total money that the government spends each year which has since 1947 , with the exception of 1952, always been in excess of the budget and in excess of money taken in by the government due to off budget spending.

The extra is borrowed from the Social security trust fund and other intragovernmental holdings. In addition, money is borrowed from the public and foreign investore in the form of Tbills etc. and spent also.

This did not begin in 1982.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 04:52 PM

Go follow my link above, and go on from their to see the actual data.
The Republicans did it. "No wiggle room."


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

Sorry Don, I accidentally referred to you as Ron.

Now, how are you disputing the facts that Democrats overwhelmingly voted for spending that increased the deficit?

If it is demonstrable bullshit (a rhetorical device), please demonstrate.

You say "Even a strongly biased source may be right." but then you use another ad hominem attacks like "slithering out"

You claim "I do not simply dismiss material because it comes from a Right-Wing blog." But then you dismiss the material.

You have presented nothing but logical fallacys while claiming being an expert. A logician. A logician is a person, such as a philosopher or mathematician, whose topic of scholarly study is logic. Are you a philosopher, a mathematician or both? Or maybe you are like Bobert who claims: First of all, I am very rarely wrong!!! No brag, just pure fact!!!

Please present some logic instead of personal attacks.

I say that because Democrats voted for the spending that raised the deficit since the 2006 election when they gained a majority, 233 seats vs 202, and could have voted against it, it is not logical to blame it on Republicans.

Democrats also could have prevented raising the debt limit. Why didn't they?


WAPO: Senate Passes Iraq War Funding Bill
March 29, 2007; 2:06 PM

The Senate today defied a White House veto threat and narrowly approved a $122 billion war spending bill that calls for combat troops to begin withdrawing from Iraq this summer.

The 51-47 vote fell mostly along party lines, with two Republicans -- Sens. Chuck Hagel (Neb.) and Gordon Smith (Ore.) -- joining Democrats in support of the package, which would fund U.S. military activity in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said he was prepared to blame Bush if a veto fight slows down funding from reaching the military, including billions for veterans health care and other benefits.

"If the president vetoes this bill, it is an asterisk in history," said Harry Reid after the vote today. "He sets the record of undermining the troops more than any president we've ever had."

Sens. Mike Enzi (R-Wyo.) and Tim Johnson (D-S.D.) were absent from today's vote, while independent Sen. Joseph L. Lieberman (Conn.) joined Republicans in opposing the bill.

From the above it would seem that most Republicans were against the bill while all Democrats were for the bill.

Tell me what part of the deficit since 1/1/2007 did the Democrats oppose?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:54 AM

Opps... Sorry... The above post is mine but the "membership" clickie is shut down...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:53 AM

Yeah, George Bush ran up a $3T bill on ***our*** Bank of China Mastercard to pay for not one but two unnecessary wars of choice and now the folks who cheered the loudest and longest for "Shock 'n Awe" are saying "Not our problem"???

If this was Newark, New Jersey and someone had told my Cousin Buddy that they had changed their mind about paying for the money he had lent them then Cousin Buddy's son, P.J., would be knocking on that person's door in a matter on minutes...

The Chinese need to send a few suma wrestlers around to knock on a few doors... Like Eric Cantor's just for starters... And Michelle Bachmann next... Johnny Bonehead, Mitchie Mac and the rest of the Repubs who don't want to pay ***their*** bills...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 04:07 AM

"There is just no wiggle room. The Republicans did it."

http://zfacts.com/p/1170.html

Don't hesitate to follow links to the real data.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:22 PM

True. Sad, but true.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 08:48 PM

But, Don, embarrassing one's self is what Sawz is all about... You take that from him and what's left???

B:~)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 08:45 PM

"Your logical fallacy was that something was untrue because of the source."

Even a strongly biased source may be right. One checks the facts themselves. But when the cut-and-paste comes from a known biased source, that's a tip-off to be extra cautious.

No, Sawzaw. I do not simply dismiss material because it comes from a Right-Wing blog. I'm a better logician than that!

You can't slither out that easily.

Read up a bit on logic before you try to instruct me about logic, and don't further embarrass yourself.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:57 PM

tHE rEPUBLICAN BIBLE


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM

Let's see if Ron can dispute these facts...

Ron who?

Democrats ... their responsibility for the deficit...

What facts? This is demonstrable bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:04 AM

Let's see if Ron can dispute these facts by simply finding the site they came from and discrediting the site rather than disproving the actual facts:

Democrats throw up a smoke screen to hide their responsibility for the deficit. They have been in control of spending since 2006 and have wholeheatedly voted for every spending bill when they could have voted them down. Now they are too untrustworthy to admit it.

Feb. 13, 2008 The first stimulus bill, H.R. 5140, became law, putting checks in the mail.         
215 House Democrats (93%) voted to add $124.4 billion to the deficit (CBO).
Senator Obama did not show up to vote.

July 30, 2008 H.R. 3221 became law, allowing the government to insure $300 billion in mortgage loans.         
227 House Democrats (96%) voted to add $24.9 billion to the deficit (CBO).
Senator Obama expressed support but did not show up to vote.

Oct. 3, 2008 H.R. 1424 became law, authorizing $700 billion for TARP.
172 House Democrats (73%) voted to bailout Wall Street with $700 billion (CBO).
Senator Obama voted for aTarp saying "It was the right thing to do."

Dec. 10, 2008 The House passed H.R. 7321 to bail out automakers. When it did not pass the Senate, the Treasury provided a bailout with very similar terms.
205 House Democrats (87%) voted to spend $16.168 billion (CBO)
With President-elect Obama's support.

Feb. 17, 2009 The stimulus bill, H.R. 1, became law, spending $787 billion on long-time Democrat priorities and pseudo tax relief for non-taxpayers.
246 House Democrats (96%) voted to add $787 billion to the deficit (CBO)
With President Obama's support.

Feb. 25, 2009 H.R. 1105 passed the House of Representatives, spending $410 billion on a pork-laden omnibus bill that gave big increases to existing government programs.
229 House Democrats (91%) voted to spend $410 billion
With President Obama's support.

Right there is over 2 trillion of the deficit, supported by the Democrats.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:17 AM

"expert" himself can be wrong, even if he is an expert.

Oh yes but you use logic to decide. Because there is the possibility does not rule out them being right or wrong.

Your logical fallacy was that something was untrue because of the source.

Now again you are asserting that things can be proven untrue because of the source. Another logical Fallacy.

To arrive at the truth you have to argues the facts, not the source or the person.

Yet I constantly hear right wing blog or left wing blog as a reason that something is not true.

Bobert is so arrogant and in love with himself that he will not divulge the source of his "facts". He just dreams them up like his "fact" that the West Bank is the most densely populated place on earth. Or that in Haiti 1% has all the wealth.

Is Bobert right or wrong? If he has no source then he must be claiming to be the authority and I would still like to know how he determined these facts. Having never been to Haiti or the West bank he must have some access to some sort of information or he could never determine these "facts".

I go to the US treasury website and dig up historic numbers about the US deficit and I am told they came from a right wing blog where the bloggers are paid. Nobody looks, Nobody checks. Nobody cares if their information is correct or not. They are not concerned about being correct and truthful because they have an agenda. They just continue their belligerent attacks on logic in order to support their "facts" because they cannot support them otherwise.

Again, I have brought it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM

Exactly, Don... But here is the kicker... Lots of these right winged bloggers are on payrolls... This is their job... They aren't here for any other reason but to spread Boss Hog's propaganda... They are hired to lie, twist, manipulate and generally spread mythology...

Corporate America sees an opportunity to take the country back to the 1890s in terms of them having their boot heel on the working man's neck and working them until they drop on the widget assembly lines... Corporate America doesn't think workers are like, ahhhh, real people... They are chattel... Like slaves... This is the grand vision of all the Boss Hogs...

What they don't get, perhaps because they have been to busy rigging the deck and stealing people lives and their labor, is history... This current crop of greedy people think that they are better than the ones that came before them... This has never worked... Never... At some point the people say "Fuck you" and go kill off enough of the kids who don't play well with other so that balance is restored...

The rich have had a 50 year run and they are at the end of the line... There really isn't anything more they can squeeze out of the American worker... The American workers wages have been stagnant for 30 years while prices and regressive taxes have gone up...

But to the righties??? They think they can pull off the trifecta and return *US* to the 1890s...

Ain't going to happen...

Like I have said... We are in a pre-revoltion period right now... The organizing of the Tea Party was a desperate attempt to hold off the inevitable and it will in the short term... In the long term it was a bad idea because the Tea Party people will come to realize what we on the left already know and that is that it ain't us on the left that are their problems, it's their masters, the Koch brothers and the Dick Armey's who want to pollute their air, poison their water, raise prices on everything, keep wages stagnant and make their health care unaffordable...

That is the real deal...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:14 PM

The fallacy of argumentum ad hominem can be phrased this way:   "What you say is wrong because you are a nincompoop," or variations thereof, such as "You are wrong because you have no education in that area."

The fallacy that Sawzaw is most frequently guilty of is the "argument from authority." "What I say is right because some 'expert' says so." Well, the "expert" himself can be wrong, even if he is an expert.

And maybe it's just me, but I generally don't regard Right-Wing blogs and web-sites (from which Sawzaw seems to have derived his education, and from which he chronically cuts and pastes) as "experts" on much of anything that relates to the REAL world.

You want to talk "logic" and "fallacies," Sawzaw? Bring it on!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 01:23 PM

"There is just no wiggle room. The Republicans did it."

http://zfacts.com/p/1170.html

Don't hesitate to follow links to the real data.

Please check the calculations yourself using the spreadsheet.

Yes, it was Reagan and Bush 1.

Forget about Bush 2 and Obama.

If not for Reagan-Bush tax cuts and spending increases, we would not be where we are today.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 01:02 PM

"America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit."

-- Sen. Barack Obama, March 16, 2006

Without fanfare


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM

Huffpo rhetoric Not fact: "the debt ceiling was raised 7 times without fanfare... No one made demands on Bush to do it... It was considered "clerical" and never politicized by anyone"

Obama Fact: "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can't pay its own bills," Obama said. The Senate narrowly approved raising the limit along partisan lines, 52-48, with all Democrats opposed.

Typically, the party that controls the White House has had to take the difficult vote to raise the limit, while the other party was free to criticize. An analysis of the past 10 years of votes on the debt limit from the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center shows the vote usually splits along partisan lines, with the president's party voting in support.

Now we have at least one of Bobert's secret sources for his famous "Bobert facts"

Lsssee, Dems had a majority in congress for 2007 and 2008 so they could vote down raising the limit or spending for those Bush wars so why didn't they? And why do they blame their actions on Republicans just like they did slavery?

Yup, they could have voted against the Jim Crow laws, anti lynching laws etc. along with the Republicans but?? I guess It was considered "clerical" and never politicized by anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:37 AM

"I'll take you on anytime" I just did.

And I never accused you of any cutting and pasting. I said you are welcome to cut and paste anything you want.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:14 AM

Oh, just a couple other little inconvenient truths for the Repubs...

While George Bush was president the debt ceiling was raised 7 times without fanfare... No one made demands on Bush to do it... It was considered "clerical" and never politicized by anyone... Sure some folks voted aganst doing it (even Obama) for their own reasons but never in a block to try to gain political leverage...

Now here's the part that the Repubs must think the American people aren't aware of... Almost all of this debt was handed off to Obama... Yup, well over 90% of this debt belongs to his predecessors... Much of it George Bush's debt for wars that he choose not to pay for but put on Master Card of China...

So for Republicans to balk at paying for their own wars makes them hypocrites and deadbeats...

That's the real story here that Tea Party Nation is more than likely clueless about and given their propensity to believe conspiracy theories over facts wouldn't believe if they were made aware of the facts...

Normal... Lots of them still believe that Iraq was involved in 9/11???

Go figure???

It's no wonder that there are jobs pout there for which there are not enough educated people to fill... Educated people are moving toward the endangered species list... lol...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM

Yes, JtS... I have gone to lengths to debunk the usual cut 'n paste Republican spin machine on deficits with reality and really don't need to go thru the entire "Deficits 001" (non credit, remedial) again... It's not worth my time to rewrite it over and over because some folks either don't or won't allow themselves to take in anything that might contradict the propaganda that fills their heads...

I'd suggest to these people to check on a basic economics course at their local community colege and also tell them that they prolly won't get much out of the course if they don't remove the tin foil hats before walking into the classroom...

But here's just a quickie:

"The deficit" as defined by the Repubs = accumulated debt including all the debt that was passed onto any new president by the former one...

"Annual deficit" = Revenues - Expeditures during a fiscal (or calendar) year...

Facts:

George Bush's last annual deficit (2009*) = $1.4T

Obama's first annual budget deficit (2010) = $1.3T

in other words, Obama is the last president to cut an annual budget deficit, something, BTW that hadn't been done since Clinton and Carter before that...

(*2009 budget was in place when Obama was inaugurated in January of '09)

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 03:30 AM

Sawzaw, before you get so snotty with people, maybe you should at least be sure you have your definitions right. Bobert mentioned the deficit. You are giving figures for the National accumulated debt.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 01:17 AM

Sawzaw, you're confused. YOU'RE the one who does all the cutting and pasting.

And be careful about attempting to get into an argument about the rules of logic with me. It's one of my areas of expertise. I'll take you on anytime.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 01:01 AM

"90% of it was handed over to him by Bush" This is from a person that said "you ain't going to hear a bunch of stats out of me cause I don't need um"

Bush ran up the deficit by by $4,350,546,687,025.54 in 8 years. which is 32% of the current deficit not 90%

If Bobert wants to revise history and claim Bush "owned" the '09 deficit then he is saying Clinton "owned" the 2001 deficit and did not hand the mythical surplus to Bush. Bush was handed the deficit that Clinton left which was $5,807,463,412,200.06 9/30/2001, $133,285,202,313.20 higher than it was the year before.

However I do want to compliment Bobert for actually writing some thing out and attempting to engage in a debate without nasty personal attacks atleast in that one post. Thank you for that Bobert.

"the "annual" deficit which deals with only a yearly snapshot of how an administration has done in a one year period..." was $17.9 billion the year of the mythical "surplus". It increased. If there was a surplus it would have shown up as a decrease.

Mr Firth is welcome to cut and paste anything he wants and we can discuss the factuality instead of trying to discredit it based on the source.

That is an Ad hominem circumstantial logical fallacy. It is an attack on the bias of a source. This is fallacious because a disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy, an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Republicans (US)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 12:59 AM

Here is the scoop on the list of quotes that Disinformation Dispenser pdq cut-and-pasted above.

While Snopes acknowledges that the people quoted did, indeed, say the things attributed to them, be sure to scroll down below the box that contains the quotes to the paragraph labeled "Origins," and read what follows.

The quotes, which have been cited on a large number of Right Wing web sites, were excerpted from longer quotes and taken out of context, which alters the meaning and intent of what the people cited were ACTUALLY saying.

The Snopes web site shows the entire quote, so you can read for yourself what was really being said.

POOF!!

Nice try, pdq, but sorry, No Sale.

Don Firth


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