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Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK

The Villan 26 Feb 10 - 05:10 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Feb 10 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Ed 26 Feb 10 - 05:20 AM
The Villan 26 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Ed 26 Feb 10 - 06:21 AM
The Villan 26 Feb 10 - 08:20 AM
broadstairs-jen 26 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM
The Villan 03 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Mar 10 - 10:28 AM
The Villan 03 Mar 10 - 12:09 PM
bubblyrat 04 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 04 Mar 10 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Blowz sans cookie 04 Mar 10 - 07:20 PM
The Villan 05 Mar 10 - 03:08 AM
pavane 10 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM
Rob Naylor 25 Jun 10 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Graham Bradshaw 25 Jun 10 - 04:13 AM
Leadfingers 25 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM
Dennis the Elder 25 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM
Paul Davenport 26 Jun 10 - 03:30 AM
Doug Chadwick 26 Jun 10 - 04:15 AM
Dennis the Elder 26 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM
Paul Davenport 26 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM
Dennis the Elder 26 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 26 Jun 10 - 12:16 PM
Paul Davenport 26 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM
Dennis the Elder 26 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM
oggie 26 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 26 Jun 10 - 05:29 PM
Paul Davenport 26 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM
Rob Naylor 27 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM
Dennis the Elder 27 Jun 10 - 01:48 PM
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Subject: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:10 AM

Just wondered if anybody is able to answer this question.

Faldingworth Live holds an Entertainment & Alcohol Licence and the people that run the bar hold a personal licence to sell alcohol.

I want to run an event at another village hall about 4 miles away.

This village hall has an Entertainment Licence, but no Alcohol Licence. So if you want to run a bar, you would normally have to apply for a temporary licence.

Supposing I asked the person holding the personal licence at Faldingworth Live to run my bar at the other village hall, is it still necesary to apply for a temporary licence?

Thanks
Les Worrall


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:16 AM

I am reasonably sure that the premises require a premises licence as much as the licensee requires a personal licence - but if the pub's licence extends to running external events it might cover.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:20 AM

Why are you asking here?

An enquiry to your Licensing Authority would surely make more sense?


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM

Thanks Richard

Ed
I have a call in at the Licensing Authority. They are not picking up, so I left a message for them to ring me back 2 days ago. They haven't as yet rung back. So I thought I would float it here in the hope that somebody has done something similar.

My guess is that I will still need to apply for a temporary licence.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:21 AM

Fair enough. The way that certain people 'have kittens' over these (sometimes non) issues make me somewhat sceptical.

Apologies, and all the best.

Ed


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 08:20 AM

Thanks Ed. Still waiting :-)


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: broadstairs-jen
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM

The personal license holder will need to apply for a temporary event notice. Our local authority responds better to emails - you might call the switchboard and ask for the licensing email address.
Good luck with your event.
Jen


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: The Villan
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM

I now have the answer. Jen has it right.

The premises must hold an alcohol licence. If not then you have to apply for a temporary licence.

A person who has a personal licence to sell alcohol can run a bar in any venue that holds an alcohol licence without having to apply for a temporary licence.

So in my case, I will be using a person to run the bar who holds a personal licence to sell alcohol, but because the Village Hall in question, does not have an alcohol licence, I have to apply for a temporary licence.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:28 AM

We had a non-licenced event a few years back and went through the same questions.

Bit of lateral thinking resulted in providing tea, coffee and soft drinks and pointing out, for people who wanted alcohol, there was an off licence 5 minutes walk away and they were welcome to bring their own:-) We didn't charge a 'corkage' to cover washing glasses etc. but we could have I suppose.

Dunno if that is an option available to you, Les?

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: The Villan
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:09 PM

It is David, but I already have the people to run the bar etc etc, so I am going that route. It should run like clockwork as they are the people that run the bar etc for Faldingworth Live. :-)


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM

It's funny,but I have spent YEARS playing in sessions,gigs,ceilidhs,etc,in pubs,clubs,village halls et al,and not ONCE has anyone EVER come in and demanded to see the alcohol and / or entertainment licence.Far better to adopt the French attitude,and ignore the whole stupid,ridiculous,time-wasting,petty beaurocratic,irritating nonsense !! What are they going to do, put you in prison?? Come off it ! Loads of people are driving around on our roads without a driving-licence, about which our wonderfully inefficient Police "Force" (ha ha !) seem to care but little,so why should they bother about a few people having a couple of pints and a sing-song in an old shed ?? Beats me.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:53 AM

Far better to adopt the French attitude,and ignore the whole stupid,ridiculous,time-wasting,petty beaurocratic,irritating nonsense !! What are they going to do, put you in prison??

Sadly our authorities are not French and the answer is yes - they will put you in prison if you rufuse to obey the law.

http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?sectioncode=7&storycode=66496&c=1


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: GUEST,Blowz sans cookie
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:20 PM

Whilst it is probably true that the chances of anyone coming and demanding to see your Alcohol License are very limited, any organiser, worth his salt, would be foolish to ignore the requirement to obtain (or rather serve) a Temporary Event Notice. If anything was to happen at the event - anything - and the police were called to attend, then the crap would hit the fan. There would be a good chance of the venue not being allowed to obtain Temporary Event Notices involving sales of alcohol in the future - which would be very upsetting for the village hall committee, I imagine. As an organiser, your name would soon get very tarnished - and I think you could probably be prosecuted as an individual too.

In our area TENs only cost £21 - not sure if it is the same countrywide. It's not a fortune, and the costs can be offset from the money made on the bar. The altenative is, as has been mentioned above, to allow people to bring their own.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: The Villan
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 03:08 AM

Well said Shambles & bsc

Its £21 in Lincolnshire.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: pavane
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM

SPAM ALERT - can someone delete the previous post, which has nothing to do with us? (And mine as well, I suppose)


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 03:58 AM

Bubblyrat: Far better to adopt the French attitude,and ignore the whole stupid,ridiculous,time-wasting,petty beaurocratic,irritating nonsense !!

The difference is in the attitude of officialdom.

A few years ago, we rented a holiday cottage next to a farm in Brittany. The farmer there sold pork in local markets, and I was astonished to see him one day slaughtering pigs outside, in his yard on the farm. Two of our local slaughterhouses had just closed down through being unable to economically meet the new requirements for veterinary supervision and hygiene, and here he was blithely killing pigs in the open air with no sign of a vet in attendance, or any special hygiene precautions.

I commented on the apparent differing standards in the UK and France in interpretation of the same EU rules. His reply was "well the food inspectors like good "artisan" pork too. I suspect that in England your inspectors are not food-lovers" and sure enough a guy from the inspectorate turned up the next day and collected a rather large package of meat.

That wouldn't happen in the UK...it might on occasion with specific individuals, but not elevated to the art of semi-official collusion that it appeared to have acquired in parts of France!

The UK appears to harbour a large sub-set of officials who don't use common sense to follow the spirit of regulatory guidelines, but seem to take a delight in gold-plating EU directives and then making sure that the letter of these regulations is followed in all cases, with all is dotted and ts crossed.

If you once get caught out ignoring the rules, however illogcal some of them are, your venue/ organisation/ whatever will have problems ever staging an event again.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 04:13 AM

Another example of the above difference between British officialese and the French.

Some years ago, some friends of mine who had run a small-holding in England decided they had had enough of all the bureacracy and sold up and moved to rural France.

They had to go through Govt depts to get all the various permissions etc, BUT, they were assigned an official from I suppose the French equivalent of DEFRA. This person worked closely with them and was quoted as saying: "My job is to help you navigate all the rules and regulations and to get round as many as possible, and to make sure you get whatever grants are available. We want you to succeed and we will do what we can to make that happen".

What a contrast to the petty bureacrats they had had to deal with in Blighty whose only motivation seemed to be to make life as difficult as possible.

Last I heard they were making a comfortable living and enjoying life to the full.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM

Beaurocrats in UK seem far more likely to have the T's dotted and the EYES Crossed !


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM

Sorry, but I am according to the three previous posts an English beurocrat. I believe I am not petty, but I do believe that the food we eat in Britain should be fit for the British and all others to eat.
If Rob Naylor, Graham Bradshaw and Leadfingers believe this is not a worthy aim, then so be it.
Just because something is easier does not automatically make it better!
Some rules are worth keeping, common sense also has a part to play, however, there are diseases, parasites etc, especially in pork, that do present a severe public health problem if uncontrolled.
Progress in meat inspection has saved many lives.
If the three afore mentioned think it is better to revert to the pathetic practices in certain countries then you are welcome to live there.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 03:30 AM

'If the three afore mentioned think it is better to revert to the pathetic practices in certain countries then you are welcome to live there.' Actually Dennis, I think they should have a right to lice where they want and choose for themselves without government officials and others telling them what is good for them. We're either adults or we're not.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:15 AM

I'll accept your       ......ignore the whole stupid, ridiculous, time-wasting, petty bureaucratic, irritating nonsense !!         if you will accept no petty interference by the police when someone is trying to break into your house. After all, burglars have got to make a living.

Picking and choosing which laws you will obey is the road to anarchy.

DC


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

You are right Paul people should have a right to "lice" where they want, however I was thinking more of avoiding in pig parasites such as Cysticercus Cellulosae and Echinococcus Granulosus, rather than pig Pediculi.
But seriously, as Doug states "Picking and choosing which laws you will obey is the road to anarchy", food hygiene and meat inspection legislation is there for a reason. For example the reduction of the two parasites, in humans, mentioned above is mainly due to good legislation and efficient meat inspection.
I for one would not want to go back to the situation where anyone, that wanted to, was permitted to slaughtering an animal for consumption by others, without some trained person examining the carcase and associated offal.
I have spent over 40 years attempting to improve hygiene standards and detecting problems that could affect human health from meat and offal.
According to the some of the previous posts I have wasted my time!
I hope not.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

Ok, so we need to be protected against food parasites etc. (and of course bad typing :-) but I still can't understand why the playing of music without a license warrants a £20,000 fine and / or 6 months imprisonment! But only in England; the same draconian licensing law not applying in either Scotland or Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

Sorry Paul I just could not resist the opportunity you presented me for mischief.
Must agree with you Paul £20,000 fine and / or 6 months imprisonment is well over the top.
Fortunately Magistrates don't normally go anywhere near this maximum amount or imposing a custodial sentence. They take many things into consideration including what is reasonable and how much the accused can afford.
There is a very large difference between "what can be" and "what is normally".
The deterrent of a large fine is there for the large companies that can afford it or where "intent" was proven.
There are some very crafty people about and the honest sometimes loose out because of the actions of these people.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 12:16 PM

Picking and choosing which laws you will obey is the road to anarchy.

If that is true then it is equally the case, where those who are employed to enforce legislation think they have the right to and are permitted, to pick and choose the laws they will obey and those they will ignore.

And in case where this is employees of local council, the damage is most often done by their advised interpretations (not agreed local policy) and which never reach any form of court and would not be supported if they did.

In my experience, the licensing section sent a letter to the licensee which threatened them with prosecution and a possible £20,000 fine and / or 6 months imprisonment if they did not obtain the licence or did not stop the session. This approch was described by the employees to the elected members as 'encouragement'.

Such penalties as these may be thought to be OTT but they still remain. Without them, there may be more people who would be prepared to test the case in our courts.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM

'There are some very crafty people about and the honest sometimes loose out because of the actions of these people'
So what you're saying is, the majority have to be controlled because of the actions of the minority?
This didn't wash with Apartheid in South Africa – why should it be acceptable in my country today?


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM

No Paul that is not what I said and certainly not what I meant.
Magistrates and Judges have the job of distinguishing the honest from the crafty.
That is why the genuine transgressor receives a small fine or in a recent case I was involved in, a conditional discharge, whereas the crafty or dishonest transgressor should receive a much heftier fine.
The law must have enough flexibility to account for the difference.
This is a main component of English law.
I have dealt with thousands of noise complaints and only a very few result in legal proceedings being instigated; proof I believe that the common sense approach is of paramount importance. But as I intimated earlier some people do not respond to this approach.
I admit some of my colleagues around the country are a little heavy handed and apply conditions that I would deem unreasonable.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: oggie
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM

The penalty for most offences is well over what is imposed. For example the maximum fine for selling a toy that does not have a CE mark and all the other details is £5,000 and/or six months. Has never happened. In most cases the toys are confiscated and in the case of small toymakers the error of their ways pointed out. The toy does not have to be unsafe for this to happen, just wrongly labelled. For the big boys a recall and seizure hits them a lot more than a fine would.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 05:29 PM

Magistrates and Judges have the job of distinguishing the honest from the crafty.

It is important to recognise that this is indeed their role.

Far too often it is a role that is assumed by many local authority employees, who are employed only to enforce all the relevant legislation and not to judge.

And who is to protect the honest members of the public from this 'rough justice' and what is recognised as being colleages who are being a little heavy-handed and who accept considerable power but accept little responsibility for their actions.

Such admissions (or excuses) as given here are welcome but in truth they bring little real comfort, as nothing is being proposed that will end it. Such things reflect badly on all local authority employees and it it up to the better ones to ensure that the worse examples do not continue and are brought into line.

Otherwise all will be tarred by the same brush. Perhaps with some justification?


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM

'No Paul that is not what I said and certainly not what I meant. '
But this is just the point what you say is open to interpretation! – why is the law open to interpretation on the one hand - entirely dependent upon personality, and so draconian on the other in its unrealistic imposition of penalties and judgements based, not on what HAS happened but rather on what MIGHT happen?
This is not deemed necessary in Scotland …why?


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

Dennis: I have spent over 40 years attempting to improve hygiene standards and detecting problems that could affect human health from meat and offal.
According to the some of the previous posts I have wasted my time!
I hope not


I wasn't condoning the situation I saw in Frasnce by any means, but pointing out that the differing attitude to the rules in the 2 countries have different consequences when ignored or got around,as a previous poster was suggesting should be done.

But addressing your point anyway: Food hygiene is important, yes, but some of the rules associated with risk assessment and HSE (and part of my job involves HSE, too...but hopefully handled in a pragmatic rather than "jobsworth" way) have seen local events here discontinued after sometimes hundreds of years of problem-free running.

And in many cases, perfectly sensible EU regulations DO seem to be "gold-plated" by UK authorities to, the extent that it has a deleterious effect on what's attempted to be achieved. We saw the instruction to replace wooden boards for cutting meat with plastic ones some years ago carried through, despite several studies that showed bacteria breeding much faster in knife scores in plastic chopping boards than they did in most types of wooden ones.

We saw local small-scale slaughterhouses which had never had any problems with meat quality close down, resulting now in most animals having to undergo the stress of long journeys to slaughter, reducing the quality of the meat, and, if reports in the Sunday Times today are true, 6 out of 7 of the new, big centralised "hygienic" "factory" slaughterhouses appearing to employ a significant minority of staff who take a sadistic delight in tormenting the animals they're in the process of slaughtering.

There are sensible rules, and there's taking bureaucracy to a level where it starts to become counterproductive. The post below my original one above says it all really (contrasting the French equivalent of what was DEFRA with its UK counterpart)...almost every bit of "officialdom" I've dealt with in my business in the UK seems to have tried to make my life more difficult, with unbending requirements to adhere to illogical rules or incur extra costs, even when they don't "fit" what I'm doing. Dealing with similar officialdom in Norway, France, Netherlands and the USA has been a dream by comparison. They seem to be there to try and serve *my* interests, whereas in the UK, I get the impression that I'm there to serve *their* tick-box forms.


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Subject: RE: Entertainment & Alcohol Licence ? UK
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 01:48 PM

Rob, I appreciate your comments.
I too am involved in Health and Safety, but from an enforcement point of view.
Yes some enforcers act in a "Jobsworth" way, however many of the cases such as the "conkers" where "local events here discontinued after sometimes hundreds of years of problem-free running" if you research you may find they are "urban rumours" with no truth to them.
However, unfortunately, some are true and normally an over reaction by an official that is not too confident about what is happening.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and many of us don't have it on all occasions.

As well as being an enforcer I also help organise Health and Safety at some large functions such as traction rallies and I do realise the need for common sense, otherwise events like this would never take place. In this role I attempt to reduce risk to a reasonable level as the law says we should.

I must admit I fell foul of the wooden board advice from the Ministry (MAFF), many years ago, but only once. Some of us do learn by our mistakes. Every training course I have run subsequently I have attempted to correct this simplistic, unproven theory and approach of MAFF.

With regards to small abattoirs there were some beautiful ones and you are right they were treated with the same disdain as the poor ones by Councils and Ministry alike. They were strongly persuaded to close; some however did survive, but not many, it is a shame more did not.
I must also admit that when Environmental Health Officers lost the lead role at abattoirs to the Meat Hygiene Service I was upset, to say the least, but must admit that the standards in red meat abattoirs have vastly improved since that day.
If animal cruelty is suspected then the "Law" should and can be brought to bear by the Meat Hygiene Service, but then would they be "Jobsworth".

It seems that unfortunately your business is based in the wrong part of the country to get the pragmatic approach you desire.
This last point actually indicates that much of what you stated in your thread has merit, there are many inconsistencies in enforcement attitudes within this country.

There are differing standards and enforcement regimes throughout the World, some countries such as Norway are probably better than England, however I believe France is not, working with Enforcement Officers in the Beirut was "interesting".

On the whole I am happy being British, enforcing some and obeying the vast majority of British Legislation.


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