Guitar in Sessions

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: GUEST,johnp
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 08:54 AM

whenever I play guitar in sessions it is usually unobtrusive as compared to everything else it is a fairly quiet instrument. In many sessions the keys of G D or A predominate (a melodeon thing I assume) three chords tends to be plenty getting the rythmn right is the main thing.

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: GUEST,Celtic Guitarist
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 08:45 AM

Some great points. Frank's a lovely player!

Definitly knowing the tunes is important. I do pick lots of tunes on guitar which helps, and as Bubblyrat said, you can start a tune ( but unfortunately it quickly become drowned oot.)

I guess i find it funny, the first impressions pecking order of instumentalists.... the thing that decided how welcome you'll be before you actually play anything - something I noticed when very young...
in Irish at least (you have to be at least competent but I reckon something like this. Slightly tongue in cheek- :O)

Uillean Pipes - You're in the inner circle before you make it through the door.

Wooden flute/fiddle/bc box/concertina/banjo - you're quickly welcomed, pull up a chair.

penny whistle (well no one would notice you turning up with one so you have to start playing really)

bouzouki/cittern/mandolin - probabably just behind the obvious melody players, have a seat

Piano Accordion - Neutral, may have to sit on the case ;O)

Guitar, bodhran - now things start off on a alight negative, you have to claw it back.

Cajon, Djembe, Keyboard - Can all work but are unlikely to get an initial welcome

Musical saw, kazoo, paer and comb - well you get the idea

:O)

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM

Terry----did you mean Cajun, or Cajon ? The former, I imagine !!

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:30 AM

I more or less agree with everything that Tom Bliss and Will Fly have said !!
   I usually manage OK in most types of session,once I have overcome any initial hostility (if there is any) on entering the room with a cased or bagged guitar ; " I see you've brought your golf-bag with you !" is a typical comment that I have received ! One just needs to be a bit thick skinned about it,and generally I find that,once other players become aware that one is ,if not brilliant,then at least fairly competent (my own self-assessment !),then things soon become more convivial,especially if one actually "leads off" a tune ; "Seven Stars",in an "English" session,usually does it for me.
            Irish sessions can be tricky,yes,although I was lucky,when first attending the noted Irish session in The Herschel Arms,in Slough, to have "resident" guitarist Frank Docherty as a mentor,and was able to watch,listen,and learn from him !
       I still think I'll continue to give The Radway a miss,though------- too much hostility there !!! Up 'em !

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:30 AM

I dabble at Guitar as well as Banjo , mandolin and whistle , and often take several instruments with me to a session ! Too many of ANY purely Rhythm instrument at a session can be a bit off , so I play along on whatever will add to the overall sound .
The only session stuff I DONT enjoy on Guitar is Cajon which , unless you REALLY know the tune well turns into a Two Bar Bore !
And I agree that playing QUIETLY is vital until you DO know the melody line and structure , what ever you are playing .

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Betsy
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:11 AM

Well said Paul Burke. I would only add that correct criticism of guitarists is based on the fact that they don't respect the tunes in the first place i.e. they don't know the tunes,and believe it's just a matter of plonking along . Learn the tunes !!!!! ,( say) make a recording of the session, and practice playing along with them at home. The ones you don't know - think of someway of playing quietly or simply keeping quiet.
I shall be playing my guitar at the Monday night session which I love to attend .

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:37 AM

Bajo? You mean the "bajo sexto" or "bajo quinto" of Mexican music? Not much danger of running into one up here. Is there a whole squad of them in Lancashire?

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:27 AM

I've been playing in all sorts of sessions- mostly Irish, but also French, English, old- timey, klezmer, Swedish, all sorts of stuff- since the 70s. Guitar has been a constant and usually most welcome contributor for almost 40 years now. Some sessions - like 70s English sessions where any sort of musical ability was frowned on as showing off- happily they got over that- and purist French, where their idea of fun is to play the same tune over and over without variations for 20 minutes- would have had problems with guitarists, but I can't think of any others.

On the other hand, like bodhrans, djembas, bajos, accordions and melodeons, the quality and control can be crucial to the welcome received. Play the wrong chords loudly and eventually someone might ask you to stop. And what are the wrong chords? Those that don't lift the tune and help the other musicians. If you're learning, play quietly. Unless it's "your" tune, play so that the music blends into a harmonious whole. Whatever the instrument, whatever your level of ability, whatever your celebrity or fame, play with the other musicians, never against them.

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:46 AM

Celtic Guitarist - you probably know this, but in case you don't..

There is a crucial difference between Irish dance music as played in sessions and English / Scottish music, and that is the role of melodic variation in Irish tunes.

Irish music largely developed without any chordal accompaniment, just melody and percussion. It was therefore possible, even necessary, for the players to vary the tune to quite a large degree without finding themselves playing another tune, and without clashing with the other tune players. This is the high skill of Irish music - it's more than decoration and less than improvisation, it's based on an almost instinctive harmonic and rhythmic diversion within universally understood rules. And it's the reason why Irish music can be the most dangerous and intoxicating of all the Celtic genres. (I'm taking nothing from the others, they have their own unique strengths - but if, for example, you vary a Scottish tune in the A part, you sometimes find you're playing the C part, because the variations are largely composed into the tune).

I'm a guitarist, and I worked professionally for ten years with a master of this art, and we talked about it more than any other topic (I've had many conversations with many other great Irish players too).

The guitar is (usually) welcomed - as long as it doesn't impinge on this flight of fancy (which, sadly it too often does). It needs to offer a chordal base which does not inhibit tune variation, and it needs to do so with a feel and rhythm which doesn't inhibit the bounce of the beat. (I was advised it was better to play one chord throughout the whole set with the right rhythmic feel, than to add lots of 'interesting' chords that ruined both the harmonic possibilities and the tap).

The reason some musicians (often the weaker players) turn up their noses at the guitar is because unless the guitarist really knows what he's doing he can ruin the session (and the weaker the player, the more likely he is to be put off) - even though he's a skilled player and thinks he's playing well.

So sessioneers confronted with a guitar case will sometimes err on the side of caution than risk having their evening ruined. This is unfortunate, but as they have come together precisely to enjoy this high wire act it is perhaps understandable.

It's not true of all sessions of course. There are many players of Irish music who wouldn't know a variation if it blow up their whistle, and lots who are happy to stick to Mally's Dots. These sessions are a good place to get a feel for the pure drop.

You will of course encounter guitarists who offer lots of chords (Jim Murray, Chris O'Malley and Tim Edey, for example) but they do so in a way that doesn't inhibit the tune players, because they also know where the tune is going.

This is also the reason why DADGAD is often preferred. It defines chords less precisely and leaves drones ringing, so is more likely to work if the guitarist doesn't know the tune backwards. Hence why some might suggest it as a good option.

Tom

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:33 AM

Quote, ' it doesn't fit in with traditional tunes ' somebody had better tell Martin Carthy cos it never stopped him.

I wouldn't want to go to any session that takes that attitude.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:24 AM

TheSession.org isn't always vitriolic about guitars at sessions, though there's a certainly a lot of heat on the subject - and many other matters. TheSession is also dedicated, so they say, to mainly Irish and Scottish music. I go to mixed sessions, French sessions and others, but always avoid those whose musical ears are blinkered.

It doesn't matter what you bring to a session as long as you, a stranger, listen to what is going on and try and fit in. A session is a great way to learn new tunes and to contribute to a good musical evening - and to have fun. I play guitar, tenor guitar and mandolin at sessions. Mandolin is great for picking up tunes quickly and joining in melodically. Tenor guitar, being tuned in 5ths (like a viola) is also good for this, though some tunes based on fiddle music can be a little out of the playable range sometimes. As far as guitar is concerned, the emphasis for me is not on laying down solid chords all the way through all the tunes - unless that's specifically required - but on providing some subtle bass line and harmonic support. You need good ears - but you need good ears for any instrument.

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 09:20 PM

Try putting this question on the forum at thesession.org .... you'll get lots of answers in no uncertain terms.

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

I doubt any Scottish session would have a problem with a harmony instrument turning up. They would have to fit in with the accordion (if there was one) but we don't go in for the self-righteous obsession with organological ethnic purity you find in Irish sessions. (It would be nice to hear some five-string banjo again someday, it hasn't been used regularly in the backline of Scottish bands since WW2).

Drinks all round for Addie Harper and his band, who had the guts to try a lineup including Hawaiian guitar and tenor sax. Okay it sounded like crap, but it was *different* crap.

Speaking as a mainly-melody-instrument-but-sometimes-alto-line player who's played in sessions with a lot of random guitarists: your tuning doesn't affect me, I can play differently to compensate for any differences in the sound you make. Where it DOES make a difference that can't be compensated for is if you accompany yourself singing. There is a particular kind of pub singer who uses a DADGAD guitar to generate a wall of sound and then bellows over the top of it with all the subtlety and dynamic shading of a car alarm. Please don't let that be you.

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: GUEST,Celtic Guitarist
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:38 PM

ust to be clear that post said - less able players often the ones that dislike guitar (in my experience) NOT those that dislkie guitar MUST be less able. It's personal choice. :)

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: treewind
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

"said I play guitar ...and have been told, abruptly, that it doesn't fit with traditional tunes.... why the hostility?"

I think this comes from the assumption (statistically defensible) that someone with a guitar is looking for a quite different sort of session.

I do know a guitarist who mostly plays fabulous blues but also has a complete understanding of how to play in an English tunes session, but folks like that are rare. And an English music session is an even less likely place to expect a guitar than a "celtic" one , if by that you mean Irish/Welsh/Scottish.

I've heard of a cellist who regularly takes his instrument to blues clubs too - but he knows what he's doing and does it very well.

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: GUEST,Celtic Guitarist
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM

ooooo tuning, now there's another issue. :) I do play in dropped tunings (although i have heard people do superb accompaniment in standard) I have been told that I shouldn't play in DADGAD!

A friend of mine had someone go completley crazy and she was learning guitar in DADGAD and in this indivdual's Not-so-humble-opinion they should learn standard first.

People get SOOO angry, i've had someone rant and storm out when i picked up guitar, claiming that he couldn't play to that, too many chord changes. I think i used a G ;O) !

TBH, that person was a bit of a novice and often it has been less strong players that get the most angry, maybe they are genuinely putoff or may be the guitarist is a scapegoat. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: GUEST, *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:22 PM

just so I can find room for a melody somewhere for my whistle to fit in they are ok. not too happy about the key of G which tends to turn up at sessions. My fingers are huge. Cant afford a low G....dont't do endless pickin and grinnin either.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

I never take a guitar to a session although I have occasionally dropped into a session on the way back from somewhere else while carrying one.   I have been hugely entertained once or twice by being advised that a guitar is/was only acceptable if it was in DADGAD or similar, standard tuning being somehow "not celtic" and thus beyond the pale.

Ian

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: stallion
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:12 PM

Oh we have Sousaphones, saxaphones & trombones!

Subject: RE: Guitar in Sessions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

I agree with you.

Subject: Guitar in Sessions
From: GUEST,Celtic Guitarist
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM

Hello!

1st If there is already a thread along these lines then please point me at it! I couldn't find it, but this may just be due to the popularity of the site.

2nd Not looking for abuse. Some people are very touchy about this subject.

OK, well.... I personally enjoy playing gutar in sessions. However, abide by the 1 accompaniast chord player (usualy) rule and know a bunch of tunes.

On a couple of occasions I have been to new sessions, said I play guitar or had it with me and have been told, abruptly, that it doesn't fit with traditional tunes. I'm quite thick skinned, but why the hostility?

Thanks :O)