BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?

Subject: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:05 AM

Soccer: away with "offside"!

... a suggestion which has come up in recent soccer-related threads, which needs a thread of its own IMO.

An essential change to soccer rules, I should say.

Offside slows down the game; discounts some of most brilliant goals; is inconsistent in its application, (e.g. re not offside if ball last played by member of defending team not applying in case of rebound from goalkeeper, though "played" in any other context [e.g throw-ins, corners] simply means "touched").

There have been many recent extremely basic changes to the rules, e.g. the no handling in case of back-pass to goalkeeper, which have improved the game although there was opposition to them when introduced; and I think abolition of 'offside' would definitely be another such.

The rule originated in the game's infancy, to prevent 'goal-hanging' in the early 'boot it hopefully upfield' days when the game was young. It has long outlived its usefulness, and become increasingly hedged about with complications and exceptions to the extent of rendering it pretty well incomprehensible. The modern game could surely, faced with the challenge of 'goal-hanging' which abolition of the rule would bring, develop techniques for obviating this particular threat ~ which seems to me the sole reason ever adduced by its supporters for for retaining this obsolete, obstructive and game-spoiling rule.

What do others think?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:42 AM

It would suit the Villa down to the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:03 AM

I have a better idea. Let's abolish association football. Completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:23 AM

I have, as usual, much sympathy with Mr. Bridges' point of view, but I believe a few minor rule changes could greatly improve the sport. Abolish the handball rule. Allow defenders to grapple the opponent who has the ball. Make the successful carrying of the ball to the opponents' end fruitful in terms of the score. To improve handling, change the shape of the ball to an ellipsoid. Instead of endless boring conversations about stars, managers and the offside rule, the apres-jeu should involve drinking to excess and singing bawdy ditties concerning Scottish virgins or engineers.

I'm sure you will agree that the sport would be greatly improved by these measures.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:33 AM

Oblate follicled spheroids

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:39 AM

Bridge & Burke ~ what I can't understand is, if you hate the game so much, why even bother to read a thread like this in the first place?: let alone adding your fatuous comments which nobody who might be remotely interested in the topic will want to know about anyhow. What a perverse, awkward pair of sillibuggaz to be sure!. If you just want to denigrate a game that some of us are obviously devoted to, why not just start your own thread to denounce it, & I promise I shan't even bother to read it. Meanwhile, kindly pay me a like courtesy and keep yourselves & your fatuous and jejune comments off mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:45 AM

Being a mere woman I had it explained to me thus -

You're in a shoe shop, second in the queue for the till. Behind the shop assistant on the till is a pair of shoes which you have seen and which you must have.

The female shopper in front of you has seen them also & is eyeing them with desire. Both of you have forgotten your purses.

It would be totally rude to push in front of the first woman if you had no money to pay for the shoes. The shop assistant remains at the till waiting.

Your friend is trying on another pair of shoes at the back of the shop and sees your dilemma. She prepares to throw her purse to you. If she does so, you can catch the purse, then walk round the other shopper and buy the shoes!

At a pinch she could throw the purse ahead of the other shopper and, "whilst it is in flight" you could nip around the other shopper, catch the purse and buy the shoes!

BUT, you must always remember that until the purse has "actually been thrown", it would be plain wrong to be in front of the other shopper!

Seems perfectly comprehensible to me :)

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

abolish 'offside' rule, and allow one more defenseman per side....


And while we're at it, lets take a look at that maniacal process of chasing a loose ball, sliding frantically between two opponents in a desperate attempt to kick it near a teammate, and often fouling, just to 'possibly' get an ever-so-brief possession when it's not a crucial situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:12 AM

The FA and their predecessors have been talking about getting rid of off-side since 1843, when they came up the compromise of it only applying in the defending side's half, rather than abolishing it completetly as in Aussie Rules, or retaining it throughout the whole field as in gridiron and Rugby.

Why not adopt the Hockey blue line?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:26 AM

I'm all for abolishing the offside's rule... First of all, it keeps the scoring down... Who likes watching 1-0 games??? No one, that's who...

Plus, it penalizes your defense for making a good defensive play, intercepting an errant pass and getting the ball to a striker... I mean, that's flat out dumb... You know, penalizing a team or player for playing, ahhhh, well...

Yeah, I like Bill's idea of havin' an extra defenseman to handle hail-Mary kicks to no one in particular...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

I played soccer(football)for a couple of years and I was never in a position to be "offside", it was too far up the field!
All I can compare it to is when they took the center line out of hockey, eliminating the "two line pass". As a referee, I thought it was the dumbest thing they'd ever done. There I am, standing at the net(ready to call a goal)and a pass is made to a player 2/3rds of the way up the ice at the far blueline. Talk about having to skate your guts out! Now that the linesmen have been instructed to follow the play right to the net(if need be)it's made hockey a better and faster game. We can thank girls hockey for this one! They did it first!

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:42 AM

Hockey is a different animal, in that the puck can go from one end to another in about 2 seconds. That has to be accounted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:44 AM

I believe it's not unknown for a soccer goalie to score (at the other end) from his own goal area.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:15 PM

imo it should be abolished

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM

Well, although I haven`t given it a lot of thought, it could increase the speed and excitement of play. Given the fact that the level of athleticism and the skill of the players has increased a fair bit in the last few hundred years, it might be well worth a trial in a minor league.

Of course... the ends of such a change may be perceived simply as an attempt to increase viewership and therefore only about money.

One thing that does come to mind is this... would you want to play defense without the offside rule for 90 minutes on a hot dayÉ

É = question mark... my keyboard is messed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:30 PM

Nothing wrong with 1-0 games in principle. Or 0-0 games for that matter. It all depends on the game. High scoring games can be boring as well.

Hurling manages well enough without an offside rule - but then it's possible to have a player score from pretty well anywhere on the field, so it's not a comparable game really.

But the real disadvantage to abolishing the offside rule would be that it would mean an end to the sport of explaining the offside rules to people who don't understand it, and of arguing about it with people who do. I think that pretty definitively rules out any such change.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

Hahahahaa. Good one!

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Bert
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:57 PM

Abolish the yellow card and tighten up the refereeing.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:03 PM

I think we ought to abolish the non-use of hands, except for the Goalie. Everybody else could use their hands to anything, even to choke the living crap out of a ref -- except the Goalies. They couldn't use their hands for anything and their hands would be handcuffed behind their backs.

(Before you UKers start in on me, my college had soccer as its primary intercollegiate sport and won the NAIA Division I championships several years in a row.)

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:18 PM

Of course they could abolish the referee and let the players sort it out between them, with the supporters joining in. After all that's how football was originally played.

Here's an entertaining where the offside rule doesn't appear too significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Allen in Oz
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 08:54 PM

I think that the abolition of offside was trialled some years ago ( together with wider goals )

It was a failure...lots of goals..but no one cared

I could be wrong...I was once in 1958 I think

Best wishes

AD

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 09:08 PM

Leave it as it is, but play it on a cross-shaped field: one direction is soccer, ninety degrees to it is a rugby match.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 09:11 PM

First of all, I understand it... I played soccer for several years back in the 70's in D.C. and folks there understand soccer... I also coached for two years (13-14 year olds)... But nevermind that...

I think if what BillD suggested and allow an extra defenseman then you'd have higher scoring games but not crazy high... LIke more 4-3 games...

I think it's worth a revisitin'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:35 AM

While being passionate about the game for over fifty years (and agree with MGM's comments re other posters above) I would hate to try to explain the offside rule, through its various forms over the years, to a non - affictionado. Possibly that was why I was a constant offender in my younger days and as such I have, on occasions, decline to run the line for that reason.
However,it has always been part of the game and some teams have their defence trained to a fine art to catch the opposing attack offside while other teams similarly have strikers with lightning speed who can spring the offside trap.
Nothing boring about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:12 AM

I'm not so sure about getting rid of it completely, but would simplify it so that there were no exceptions (get rid of all this not influencing play rubbish) so if the ball hasn't been played forward then anyone between the last of the back four and the keeper is offside, full stop.

The problem at the moments is even commentators aren't sure of the rules, and it's all got too convoluted.

Shame about the Villa yesterday. Did Fergie intimidate Phil Dowd? He'd certainly had a go at him in previous weeks for sending off his players.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:29 AM

Agree re Villa, Jack ~ Vidic should have been off in 4th minute!.

But getting back from drift ~ think simplified rule as you postulate it would make things worse: someone wd be offside all the time & then what?

Wish they would just try something like an agreed season worldwide without it to see how it went, & then reconsider the necessity of the rule in toto.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 10:01 AM

In that case, why not make the whole field offside?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 12:11 PM

That was the rule pre 1843.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:09 PM

In what way would a no offside rule improve the game? I couldn't see teams effectively attacking as a unit. It would probably mean that the midfield would become clogged with one team trying to cancel out the other.

Agbonlahor was actually heading away from goal when Vidic tackled and was therefore not denied a goal scoring opportunity. Phil Dowd made the right call. Its a technicality but according to the rules its the right call. FIFA are looking into this rule right now because of the triple whammy effect on the offending team. The opposition are awarded a penalty, the offending player is sent off and receives a suspension ruling him out for up to three games. This rule is unprecedented in the game.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Den
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM

Forgot to sign-in...the guest above was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:24 PM

To turn your question around, Den: I have been puzzling my head as to what service the rule does FOR the game since I first learned it in 1941 ~ apart from leading to perpetual temper-robbing irritation & frustration & reducing the most promising of moves to piddling pettifogging fidgets. Could you perhaps elaborate on its advantages? (Forget the goal-hanging argument, comprehensively dealt with already.)

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Den
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 02:45 PM

MtheGM, the goal hanging argument is huge and I think would have a detrimental effect on the game as an entertainment spectacle. I believe that without the offside rule football/soccer would be a large field game of ping pong, filled with long kicks and alternating mad scrambles from one end of the field to the other. The field of play would either be drawn out completely or the midfield would be compacted in order to prevent the opposing team from playing. By preventing any "offside" player from participating in the game, the rule puts a premium on dribbling and passing, rather than long kicks. This promotes teamwork, which, in turn, encourages quick switching from one side of the field to the other, and compresses the action to a smaller area of the field. The end result is that all the players stay closer to the action, and everyone has a better chance of participating in the game. Why not just play with say four players and have them belt the ball up and down to each other.

Now what's your argument for abolishing the rule?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM

Read my OP for answer to your final question, Den. You don't really imagine I am going to type it all out again, do you? Which leads me to my reply to your post ~~~

I don't agree with a single word of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:48 AM

Well for starters, the game is called football, not soccer.

The term is an abbreviation of association football, which used to distinguish it from other forms back in the days of different rules before the FA was set up.

One aspect of the game is the offside rule, which makes the game better as it stops "goal hanging."

Full stop.

This does of course stop the game from having too many goals and if you need to have a higher score in order to be interested, may I suggest you try and get out more?   

On a slightly more serious note, I accept that the policing of offside does need tweaking from time to time. In fact, I only wish referees were allowed to enforce the rules as they stand rather than how they are told by FIFA that they stand. If a player is in line with the final defender, he should be deemed to be onside, but how often do you see the ruddy flag go up? FIFA obviously think we pay good money to watch three blokes, two with flags and one with a whistle, rather than watch 22 players.

Oh, and if linesmen (NEVER assistant referees) are not capable of running to keep up, replace them with people who are. If offside is to be debated on its merits or otherwise, then at least let us make an assumption that linesmen are in a position to see whether somebody is offside or not? Until they make spectacles that adjust for parallax error that is.....

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:52 AM

... tho would add, come to think of it, that the rule as at present constituted redounds against the swift short-passing game which the Soviet Russians, who used no offside rule at that time so the matches were played without it, intro'd us to, much to our wonderment, on their tours at end of WWii ~~~ so it is at least as arguable that its abolition would revive that skill as that it would lead to the unfortunate outcomes you suggest above, Den.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:57 AM

... & Steaming Willie, kindly don't address me in that patronising tone if you don't mind. The term 'football' as you yourself have just reminded us, should equally be used of both rugby codes, Ozzie rules, Celtic {real original subject of 'Football Crazy'}, & the lot ~~ hence my careful specification as to which code I was writing about ~~ SIR.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:03 AM

In fact, in re some of the 'annoying misuses of language' threads which proliferate around here: one which has always irritated me immeasurably is such usages as "Did you play Rugby or Football at your school?" ~~~ 'Rugby' *is* a form of 'football' FFS, so the usage is both tautologous and meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:45 AM

Agbonlahor was actually heading away from goal when Vidic tackled and was therefore not denied a goal scoring opportunity. Phil Dowd made the right call.===

&, Den, this absurd argument, traceable back to an idiot statement by Graham Poll, is comprehensively destroyed by Matt Dickinson in this morning's Times: I commend his article to you. It is on p 71, or could no doubt be accesed at times Online.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:50 AM

Practically it would take several seasons for the rule change to settle in and for coaches to adapt their tactics. The game is all about winnng trophies nowadays and any team manager who lost an important game would blame it on the rule change . What incentive would a team like Manchester United have for supporting any change in the status quo?

I'm not sure if a rule change would speed the game up myself ,it might even have the opposite effect . I have (distant)memories of playing in the school playground without any off-side rule. There used to be a bunch of "goal-hangers" in the other teams half waiting to get the ball kicked up to them with markers from the opposing team trying to crowd them out .

Why was the rule first introduced?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:10 AM

Hi

Another reason why I support the don't change the off-side rule brigade, is that in this era of " make sure thou shalt not lose before you attempt to try and win" ; what would happen is that teams near the bottom of the league would pack the goal line making it almost impossible to score.

Wolves would recruit a team of seven feet tall eighteen stone players in a desperate effort to avoid relegation.

Fergie would be constantly measuring the goals to make sure that they were the correct size and it would be even more difficult for Arsen Wenger not to see what happened when one of his players was involved in fouling someone.

Leave well alone.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:58 PM

············What incentive would a team like Manchester United have for supporting any change in the status quo?··········

I see no virtue or point in this argument. If the change were voted thru by the competent authority, then Man U would have the same option as any other team: to accept it & abide by it; or to bugger off and ~ ah ~ play with themselves.

There was, remember, considerable opposition, on much same sort of grounds as those above to this change I propose, from various entrenched interests, to the changes in the back-pass to goalkeepers rules not that many years ago: it was a fundamental alteration to what had gone on as long as the rules had been formulated. But it has indubitably improved the game and I don't think anyone regrets it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM

MtheGM misses a point when he / she accused me of patronising.

There is only one game called football. Other pastimes with it in the title are of a passing fancy but in the words of Bill Shankley, "Football isn't a way of life, its far more important than that."

if you feel that using the term "football" can be confusing, what the hell are you doing commenting on THE game?

Blasphemy where I come from, you know.....

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:23 PM

What Shankly actually said, Willie, was that it wasn't "a matter of Life & Death ~ much more important than that".

In fact, my use of 'Soccer' in the thread title was considered: mainly for enlightenment & comprehension of any Transponders, among whom the game has more & more caught on under that name. I take your points: tho must reiterate that the dichotomy of 'rugby or football' always makes me shudder: I remember {name-drop alert} once arguing with my old (& alas late) friend Clement Freud about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:48 PM

If you say football, in most of the English speaking world it's ambiguous. For instance, in 1886 Hawick Football Club joined the Scottish Football Union and Hull Football Club (est 1865) still plays in Superleague XV.

In the 50's as children, while we played "football" to something like Association rules, we were well aware that there were different forms of the game. For modern Association football followers to claim excusive use of the term is just an arrogant denial of the game's variety and history.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:10 PM

Well, to me the offside rule is kinda like if baseball said that anyone who hit the ball "over the fence" (now a homerun) would be called out!!! Yeah, if ya'll like a short passin' game and alot of traffic jams then keep it the way it is... If you want somethin more exciting than let 'um attempt to pass downfield to a striker... In American football that is called "going deep" and it doesn't ruin American football so why should it soccer??? And long pases, contary to some folks opinions, ain't all that easy to connect...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:28 PM

Good anology Bobert. But lost on those peeps who don't know Bart Starr of The Long Bomb, et al.

In the long run (pun intended), as long as the rules are applied judicially by the referees, the contest is up to the atheletes. As for the fans, how can one define "exciting"? Not any easier than defining "folk", is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Arnie
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:26 AM

I read in yesterday's Times that the FIFA chief Sepp Blatter has now asked various football administrators for their views on abolishing the offside rule. There is a possibility that it will be introduced as an experiment in lower or non-league footie to see how it goes. Nothing will happen until next season of course, but it will be interesting to see if this is progressed...

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:34 AM

hi arnie

Yea I saw something like that some months back.

I wonder if this trial is going on now? I go to watch my young grandson who plays for the school football ( in this area we have THREE kinds - football ( soccer) union and league !!!)team.

They usually have referees but no linesmen. I find that the school providing the referee tends to default to the no offside rule when it applies to players from their own school.

Makes for interesting watching and occasionally very biassed results, not to mention howls of foul play by visiting spectators.

At least it means that any-up-and-coming young footballer will be well conversant and experienced in playing the no offside rule should it ever get passed.

Wouldn't be too concerned with what Blatter says.....he will change his mind again tomorrow.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:11 PM

England 3 Egypt 1 last night. Oh, goodie-goodie.

But Crouch's first goal should never have stood: he was well offside in terms of the present idiot rule we are discussing here. Even the Assistant Refs can't get it right without the hindsight of instant replays available to commentator & viewer ~~~ &, NO, this is not a plea for bigscreen appeals as are now happening in tennis & cricket; it is a plea, AGAIN, to get rid of this obstructive, otiose, divisive rule once & for all. It has outlived whatever usefulness it might ever have had & is becoming more & more of a nuisance.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:14 AM

Infuriating as it is (well, when your side gets pulled up for offside and when the opposing scorer was celearly offending, it is) it constitutes an integral part of the the game and while championships and cups have been lost, and won, because of the subjective nature of the rule to abolish it would be akin to doing away with LBW in cricket or punching below the belt in boxing.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:53 AM

hi dave

I couldn't agree more.

It is the same rule for both sides and I know that there are some "iffy" decisions but in the end they tend to cancel themselves out.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:56 AM

Your mention of LBW is interesting, Dave, because altho it is essential in justice for the concept to exist, it too has got so hedged around with piddling exceptions & otiose details that it wants a good deal of SIMPLIFICATARY tidying up. The offside rule, OTOH, doesn't ~~ it is no way essential for equity like LBW, & simply, IMO obviously, wants doing away with. You 2, MikeL & Dave, I know disagree, which is fair enough; but I do think serious consideration should be given to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:58 AM

hi dave & MtheGm

MtheGM - I do not believe that the game is in any way - both for the players and spectators - detrimentally affected by the present off-side rule. As a great believer in the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy I say leave well alone.

As an ex-cricketer I think you both may have a point with LBW. As an opening batsmanI have had many an afternoon spoiled by a white-coated official who didn't understand the rule properly. My son who followed in my footsteps has been known to throw his bat through the pavillion window when having been given out LBW when he wasn't....lol true !!!

Having said that it is a very difficult set of rules to understand and even with the help of Hawkeye etc they still get it wrong.

So though I would be an advocate of changing the rule I haven't a clue what I would do to improve it, unless you did away with it altogether.???

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:30 PM

As so often, the great Flashman as edited by Geo MacDonald Fraser had it right: 'It should just be, "If the umpire thinks the ball would have hit the wicket if the batsman's leg hadn't got in the way, then he's out. If he doesn't, then he isn't. And that's all."'

What could be clearer?

Now put your mouth where &c & solve the old offside bummo as efficiently as that. Becoz I disagree profoundly with you:

IT IS IMO THOROUGHLY BROKE BEYOND HOPE OF FIXING.

As well as profoundly unnecessary and frustrating and in every way detrimental to the true spirit of the game.

So sucks·boo!

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:56 PM

hi

< Now put your mouth where &c & solve the old offside bummo as efficiently as that. Becoz I disagree profoundly with you:>

No being as you appear to know it all, I will leave it to you.

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:20 PM

Ooohhh, hoity-toity!, MikeL2.

Definitely Unacceptable ··· Or Out Of Order ··· Or OFFSIDE ···

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 05:07 AM

hi MtheGM

Me hoity toity !!! Shades of kettle and black come to mind here.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 05:23 PM

You're right to say that opposition from the big clubs shouldn't be an issue MtheG .
But I still think that the rule change would be too much of a change -it would be more like changing the game rather than just changing a rule. The rule was introduced in the game's infancy ,as you said , to stop goal-hanging. You say that the game could surely develop techniques to obviate goal-hanging .I don't know how you can be so sure.

The game's history and everyday experience of playing without the rule show that football played "naturally" gravitates to goal-hanging . That was how they found things in football's infancy and that's why they introduced the rule . The introduction of the off-side rule altered the game to allow football to become the great sport it is today. To change the rule would have as big an impact to the game as its original introduction . That's why I'd urge caution.

Why are Fifa introducing the change in lower divisions ? I haven't trusted that lot since they made a proposal a few years ago to look into the possibiity of altering the length of the game so that there could be breaks every twenty minutes to allow for advertising slots. That was when they were trying to get America to take the sport seriously. Seriously.

To the Americans reading this. I know y'all aren't happy unless you have goals, goals, goals ,but don't let the offie abolishionists fool you into thinking that it's the rule that's stopping the goals thundering into the back of the nets. The reason why there aren't so many goals these days is because they haven't got Jimmy Greaves playing anymore .Pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:26 PM

"...it doesn't ruin American football..."

There's an implied assumption in that which not everyone would agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:37 PM

Maybe someone could explain what kind of techniques could be dreamed up which would "obviate goal hanging" without screwing up the game in other ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 06:36 AM

McGrath ~ that would be for the coaches & the players to work on. Whatever resulted during the inevitable transition period, which modern playing techniques would surely find a way round, would have to be an improvement on the present inordinate dog's-breakfast of a frustrating, over-complex, widely misunderstood, inconsistently & often [as replays constantly show] inaccurately enforced rule.

There are, I repeat, precedents. When Moscow Dynamo toured UK just after WWii, no offside was used at that time in Soviet football; so the rule was set aside by agreement for all matches. The result was an unprecedented excitement at the brilliance of their co-operative short-passing game; which, by general agreement, just would not have worked if offside had been in force. This suspension of the rule produced, in short, fast, exciting, creative play, the very opposite of goal-hanging.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 08:13 AM

When they played the famous game of football between the trenches in the first world war they probably didn't use the off-side rule either ,and everyone agreed that was a great game as well. You keep repeating the same precedent(s) MtheG. That business about Moscow Dynamo is interesting as an anecdote but very short on detail .How come the Soviet Union adopted the off-side rule if the game played their way was so exciting ? Couldn't the Russians have sent the tanks in and introduced their exciting brilliant short-passing game to the eastern bloc when they were in charge there ? If it was that good they wouldn't have needed the tanks.

I'd say that the anti-abolishinists are up by about 2-1 on this thread, by the way . Not bad seeing as we're playing away from home on the abolishinists own thread. A bit of an own goal there from me yesterday ,but I did put my hands up to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 08:31 AM

Here's another one . The sports commentators would have to come up with a whole new bunch of clichés wouldn't they?
I got that one in quick while the oppo were still recovering from my last volley . 3-1 now by my reckoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 04:53 AM

The same subject was being debated on BBC Sport's Football 606 forum last week and generally the idea was considered to be a non - starter over there too.
In a way we benefited from the rule yesterday as when the original ball which won us a corer from which we scored our 91st minute winner there was the issue that Dexter Blackstock was offside when the ball was played but he was not encroaching on the play. Split seconds later he was and we won a corner. BBC's "Football League Show" made a big thing about this last night. Similarly they showed the possible penalty against us which wasn't given; I was right on top of that one and I wouldn't like to call it - the chap on my right swore it was a dive while son in law on my left was convinced that it was a stonewall penalty (had it been a Forest player in Sawnsea's penalty area there would have been no doubt!!).
There were plenty of the same type of talking points yesterday from the Portsmouth v Birmingham and Newcastle v Barnsley matches all bringing goal line technology and giant screen 4th/5th referees once again into the equation.
However the game has existed and thrived on such controversy and long may it do so; what would we have to talk about in the pub afterwards if it was gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 05:25 AM

Dave ~ why, diving; and players' hairstyles; & wags; & refs' & linesmen's defective eyesight generally: plenty to talk about without persisting in ruining the flow and atmosphere of the game with outdated & otiose hangovers from the game's very infancy...

I mean, seriously: the traditional rules get altered & modified all the time: I recall {& I was a goalkeeper 60 years ago} when a goalkeeper was fair game for shoulder-charging into the net as he was off-balance while catching the ball ~ now it's practically a foul to look at him from any less than 5 yards away; you could backpass for the goalkeeper to catch or pick up; sliding tackles used to be respected as skilful ~ now they are liable to bring a red card. All these alterations {except perhaps that goalkeepers are now grotesquely over-protected}, I think it would be generally agreed, have improved matters rather than the opposite.

I genuinely think getting rid of offside would too. Surely it would be worth trying, worldwide, for an experimental season, followed by an online symposium of all interested parties as to whether it would then be revived or not ~ Followed by a definitive decision by FIFA?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM

hi dave

I agree with you.

I watched three matches yesterday.

I am a Man U fan and was at the game at Wolves yesterday. We were lucky to get away with a win. But the season has gone on like this for us most of the time. We haven't really played well all season and yet there we are on top of the league and having won more games than anyone else. Makes you think.

I watched two other cup games that I had recorded.

In watching these games I could not see any case to be made for changing the off-side rule. There were some minor calls like you will get in every game but the games flowed and while none of them were show stoppers they were exciting and kept the fans on their toes.

Ironically there was the incident in the Portsmouth game where Birmingham claimed that they had scored from Ridgewell's header.
I watched it as it happened I did not think that the ball had crossed the line. Replays and slow motion proved me wrong.

I say ironic because earlier that yesterday Sep Blatter and his FIFA henchmen had voted against the proposed use of technology as an aid to referees.

This I do find puzzling.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 03:27 PM

I'm sure tactics would be developed to match any change in the rules. But it seems likely that the winning tactic would be likely to involve a kind of ping-pong afair with goalhangers at both ends paired off with hatchet-men dfenders, and a succesion of long balls from end to end.

It might be interesting to find out, but the best way might be to have a breakaway league playing a modified code, the same way you have two codes in Rugby.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:03 AM

hi Mcgrath

There are reports that some trial games with no off-side have been tried in Scotland as well as some in Europe but they are not well documented.

The fact that nothing has been reported officially probably means that the trials didn't prove anything.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 02:03 PM

r

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 03:30 PM

I can remember when footy fans used to disparrage Jimmy Greaves calling him a 'goal sniper'. The nature of the game has changed a lot these days and 'goalmouth skills' are earnestly discussed and compared.

I think whatever you do with the game - the skilled players will fit their game to it, with ruthless efficiency. If we did this reform, would we see 'Bobby Charlton run' - where a player with amazing dribbling skill single handedly took the opposite team on and beat them individually.

Playing a percentage game, i think most trainers would change the basic tactic to the longball game.But there will always be players who are capable of that magic 'break', and unable to resist the temptation to show off - and if they did away with the offside - these guys would save the game.

They would be in the same position as Jimmy White and the late Alex Higgins were in snooker - they won't be the highest paid or the higheat scorers, but they will represent everything that is attractive and worth watching about the game.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:13 PM

It would never get the support of press or pundits, they would have too little / even less to talk about.

mmm maybe they should abolish it after all

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:21 PM

I just noticed this thread and was quite surprised that the game HAS rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Nick
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:27 PM

Here's a thought

Why not have great looking women in all parts of the game because the highly paid, but yet suprisingly but enormously moral, players wouldn't abuse them

No. That doesn't work.

Probably work in a quiet, refined sport like golf.

Perhaps attractive ladies are drawn to soccer (football) because of the intricacies of the offside rule. I understand that it has many similarities to the rules of lacrosse which again probably explains its attraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 03:43 AM

Howsabout we all accept that many mudcatters and female linesmen don't understand the offside rule and leave it at that?

M'Unlearned friend even suggested in the third entry here that something called association football was abolished. It was, when it dropped the "association" bit and became the glorious game.

Up the Owls!



(ps. The bit about the female linesman? Well... as Andy Gray pointed out she was female, it made it a sexist issue, and rightly so, he was castigated. Although sacking him for having sexist views is nothing. I always wanted him sacking for having football views... He never did like The Wednesday... . However, I can confirm that when she ran the line at Hillaborough the other year, she was always 10 yard behind play and was being booed for being crap, not being a woman.)

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 04:33 AM

As the laws of Association Football are derived from those of the Cambridge University Foot Ball Club, are they actually intended to be understandable by those without a university education?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 04:39 AM

I've got one, thanks Dave ~~ from Cambridge University at that. And I still think the offside rule is a thoroughly dispensable mess.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 06:48 AM

Kylie Minogue was asked once to explain the offside rule, she didn't do us girls any favours by explaining it in a so called 'girly' fashion and when she finished I was none the wiser. So yes abolishing it altogether would make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM

Blatter is talking to the Field Hockey people about this. Field Hockey abolished offside in 1998 and it seems to have improved the game greatly, especially when played on Astroturf.
Field Hockey Laws

I am using the title Field Hockey to distinguish it from Ice Hockey for North American readers.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 08:47 AM

The old Field Hockey rules look like they simply copied from the FA. The rule in Hockey and Shinty is basicly thta you are offside if you cross a line on the field or pitch before the ball or puck.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 10:20 AM

"LET`S CHANGE THE RULES" is the usual sanctuary of those too thick or dis-honest to play to them or understand them. If the decisions of referees and linesmen/women were accepted without contention, bearing in mind, everybody on the field is human and subject to it`s frailties, then the image of the "beautiful game" would be enhanced.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 10:47 AM

No-one's got that Shankly quote right, but I won't dwell. Instead, and more apropos, is this one of his: "If a player is not interfering with play or seeking to gain an advantage, then he should be."

The offside rule is excellent and the game would be intolerably dull without it. The challenge is to apply it well. Apart from the issue alluded to above, the assistant ref has to be looking at two things at once, the position of the receiving player and the ball at the instant it's passed to that player. Not only that, it's impossible for the assistant ref to maintain a parallel line of sight at all times. You're always going to have these marginal issues in sport (look at LBWs and caught-behinds in cricket and how even sophisticated technology struggles with them) and the spirit of the thing must always be to accept that occasional wrong calls will be made and you put up with it in a sporting manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 01:44 PM

Online Ad for Soccerprint t-shirt

== This Liverpool Bill Shankly Life and Death Quote T-Shirt features Bill Shankly's famous and often repeated quote....

"Football's not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that." ==

Precisely as I quoted it above.

What convinces you that you know everything so much better than everyone else, eh, Steve?

Disagree profoundly with you about how game would be dull without offside rule. I think it reduces the game to dullness by inhibiting fast and open play. In what way, out of interest, do you find it enhances the excitement of the game?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 02:24 PM

Sigh. I don't know anything better than anyone else, Michael. I simply googled the bloody thing and got it straight from Liverpool FC's website in about thirteeen and a half seconds flat. Anyone purporting to quote a quote from some half-remembered source is just bloody lazy, to be honest. Here it is: Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that.

As for the offside rule, it prevents players from standing next to the goalkeeper waiting for the ball to be punted up more in hope than with skill. You wanna watch a game with that happening every two minutes and I'm not with you. It also allows an extra level of skill to be employed by the defending team via the high-risk strategy of employing the offside trap, which adds to the scope for actually employing tactics instead of just encouraging aimless and tedious booting of the ball up half the length of the pitch. Got England a long way, didn't it? Wasn't it such a joy to watch?

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 02:34 PM

Anyway, what's so wrong with the short-passing game? Barca do it and the Spanish national team did it superbly in the World Cup Final. Like everybody else I like a bit of drama and bombast but I also like to see the full gamut of footballing skills being elegantly employed. But then I'm of that Matthews/Finney/Douglas/McIlroy-watching generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM

"Some people think football is a matter of life and death ... I can assure them it is much more serious than that."

In 'Sunday Times' 4 October 1981 (according to 'The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, Revised Fourth Edition, 1996. I suspect that he might have used it in different forms on more than one occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 04:06 PM

I'm a simple man. I'll stick with the thing nearest to the horse's mouth, the indomitable Liverpool FC.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 05:42 PM

Nothing wrong with the short-passing game. Anyone old enough to recall a bit of history will remember this was intro'd par excellence here by Moscow Dynamo in their tour here just after the War: but it only worked because, as USSR had no offside rule at the time, offside was suspended for the tour ~~ otherwise the final pass of one of their manoeuvres would always have caught the last man offside. Short passing & offside are NOT incompatible. A decent game of soccer & offside are, to my mind: it is the reason the game doesn't flow as it could if allowed to develop naturally.

I mean, fancy making a virtue of the devious bit of finagling known as the offside trap. Ugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

One problem is the change in attitude towards the laws of the game (and this applies to all codes). Originally it was assumed that everybody knew how to play the game, and laws were only introduced where there was any disagreement - I seem to remember that Rugby School had a law stating that a boy sitting on a certain branch of a certain tree was "off his side". As the various codes developed and began developing 'game plans' and being coached, there developed a tendency to assume that if something wasn't specifically prohibited then it was a legitimate tactic. Players are also expected to push tje referee's interpretation to the limit, hence the other Shankly quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 11 - 06:43 PM

I've just had a look on the GAA site, and although there is no mention of 'offside', the following foul play is defined for Gaelic Football (and Hurling)

"For an attacking player to enter opponents' small rectangle (goal area) before the ball enters it during play.
Exception
(i) If an attacking player legally enters the small rectangle, and the ball is played from that area but is returned before the attacking player has time to leave the area, provided he does not play the ball or interfere with the defence, a foul is not committed."

Subject: RE: BS: Soccer: let's abolish 'offside' rule?
From: MikeL2
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 09:35 AM

hi

Thanks Michael for reviving this thread.

I still disagree with you as I feel that the game would not benefit significantly to warrant taking out the off-side rule. I have no doubt if it did that the professional game would simply adopt itself to the changes and it would still be that the best teams would usually win.

One interesting point on the current female assistant discussions - I wonder what the outcome re- Gray and Keys would have been had the woman got that off-side decision wrong ???

Hmmmm

Cheers

MikeL2

MikeL2