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FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume

*#1 PEASANT* 01 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM
Stower 01 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Mar 10 - 09:05 AM
Stower 01 Mar 10 - 09:17 AM
Mr Red 01 Mar 10 - 09:20 AM
Stower 01 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 01 Mar 10 - 09:32 AM
Stower 01 Mar 10 - 09:36 AM
Liz the Squeak 02 Mar 10 - 03:29 AM
squeezeboxhp 02 Mar 10 - 03:42 AM
Davetnova 02 Mar 10 - 03:44 AM
Liz the Squeak 02 Mar 10 - 04:39 AM
Les in Chorlton 02 Mar 10 - 05:17 AM
Les in Chorlton 02 Mar 10 - 05:25 AM
Mr Red 02 Mar 10 - 05:49 AM
BobKnight 02 Mar 10 - 06:07 AM
glueman 02 Mar 10 - 06:15 AM
Jack Campin 02 Mar 10 - 06:39 AM
Leadfingers 02 Mar 10 - 06:51 AM
Bonzo3legs 02 Mar 10 - 06:55 AM
bubblyrat 02 Mar 10 - 07:05 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Mar 10 - 07:37 AM
Gedi 02 Mar 10 - 08:19 AM
Bert 02 Mar 10 - 08:26 AM
bubblyrat 02 Mar 10 - 10:04 AM
Mooh 02 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM
Bill D 02 Mar 10 - 11:04 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Mar 10 - 11:51 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Mar 10 - 11:53 AM
Bernard 02 Mar 10 - 12:03 PM
Bill D 02 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Otis. 02 Mar 10 - 01:08 PM
eddie1 02 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM
glueman 02 Mar 10 - 02:01 PM
GUEST 02 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM
Ernest 02 Mar 10 - 02:15 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Mar 10 - 07:55 PM
catspaw49 02 Mar 10 - 08:39 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Mar 10 - 11:27 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Mar 10 - 08:28 AM
Bernard 03 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Mar 10 - 09:29 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Mar 10 - 09:33 AM
melodeonboy 03 Mar 10 - 10:41 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Mar 10 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,999 03 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM
Bill D 03 Mar 10 - 12:29 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 04 Mar 10 - 04:52 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Mar 10 - 08:09 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Mar 10 - 09:35 PM
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Subject: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM

Why does one find so much "masquerade" at folk venues these days?

Seems like pirates are everywhere, steampunkers, ye olde wenches, and all kinds of (rather expensive) archaic costume?

Why is it that folk music makes people dress in the past?
Maybe they can not see that folk music is timeless and suitable for any clothing or none at all?

The music sounds the same without the additional symbolism "hey look at me I sing bawdy songs"

How should folkies dress to convey the vision of the timelessness of the music.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Stower
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM

"Maybe they can not see that folk music is timeless and suitable for any clothing or none at all?"

None at all?! I'm going to the wrong festivals. Please post links.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:05 AM

Just look up "Clothing optional resorts"
CB


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Stower
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:17 AM

Are you in the USA, #1, as I haven't noticed this trend in the UK? What I do see, sometimes, are folkies who dress colourfully in clothing they presumably wouldn't be 'allowed' to wear in their day to day working lives. If that makes them happy, if that brightens their day, puts a smile on their face and gives them a bounce in their step, I say 'good for them'.

What you describe sounds like folkies in Ye Olde Fancie Dress. If I saw too much of that I may worry that the music - or at least its image - had been Disneyfied. In that case, I may wonder what impression they're giving to those new to the music and to folk festivals. Is that your concern? (Then again, it's out of my hands and there's not much I'd be able to do about it.)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:20 AM

And your problem with the freedom of self-expression that offends no-one --- is? better to express oneself sartorially than verbally. In some cases I wish opinionates would so choose.

The whole point about the Folk World is that egoes find it hard to be satisfied by the reactions of folkies, leaving those that want to dress to suit their mood and the dictates of their pursuits an easy ride. Like dancing in trainers rather than silletos.
Folk is "about" being mostly laid back about inconsequential things, and concentrating on the plight of common (wo)man, &/or the clarity of the ale.
And making a bit of music into the bargain.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Stower
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM

Mr Red, I wondered how long it would take you to notice this thread! Well put, I think. The way someone dresses is hardly a matter of great consequence (unless they're wearing a t-shirt that shows fascist sympathies, but that's another thread).

I have just looked at another thread started by #1, and I conclude he's definitely talking about a Stateside phenomenon.

I still want those links, though.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:32 AM

At my local singaround, people dress as off-duty social workers, nurses, teachers, estimators, retirees, storytellers and all sorts. It's a bloomin' liberty, I tell you! Why can't they just be themselves?

Dressing up is fun. Today I have a striped orange shirt, dark blue chinos and a sixties-style suede jacket. Mmmm. Nice.

Next question!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Stower
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:36 AM

"Dressing up is fun." I agree, Spleen Cringe. Maybe #1 gets his fun from starting threads like this? Looking at other threads he's started, I'm guessing so.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:29 AM

If you are involved in a dance team or re-enactment troop (any age, any country), you get used to walking around in strange costume - so much so over festival season, that it can feel very weird wearing jeans and a Tshirt. If you're booked to perform during the day, then costume is de rigeur and it's usually too much of a faff to change in and out of it (unless you're the one in the full suit of armour with pot helmet and crest) just to go for a sing.

Of course, you have to ask yourself, how do you KNOW it's pirate dress? These days, from what I see on the news, pirates wear Armani.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: squeezeboxhp
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:42 AM

as mummers you do not always realise you are still in black and kit after a days performing then go into a non folkie venue, this causes a few looks but then you become involved in converting some non folkie into the fun of the job


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Davetnova
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:44 AM

I would think that dressing up is fairly fun and harmless and can be changed in minutes if inappropriate. What I would question is why people ruin perfectly good cars by copvering them in garbage and calling them art. Why?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:39 AM

Yes, why call them Art when Brian is a perfectly good name as well!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:17 AM

I was brought up sharply when my sister-in-law, a none folkie, suggested that my wife and I should wear sleaveless soemthing or others when we went folking - like the others do.

I hadn't realised that civilians see us in uniforms but at Shresbury Festival, one of the best in the UK, I was struck by the number of people in waistcoats, peaked caps, neckerchiefs, big flouncy skirts and so on and I wondered what ther none folkie friends would feel if they saw them and how they would feel outside the festival.

Know, where is my tankard and clip

L in C


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:25 AM

PS, I will be checking Mr Cringe for waistcoats this Wednesday.

L in C


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:49 AM

The problem with uniform is misinterpretation. A lot of folkie uniform comes from function. Tankards prevent confusion of ownership or removal before empty, they don't break easily. Dance sides are in context. Sure there is a lot of similarity in folkie garb, but best suits in a tent and mud are hardly practical. Flowing skirts suit festival weather, jeans are work-a-day washable clothes. The uniform comes out of the context. Has anyone been to a gypsy horse fair? I think "uniform" would scream out at you. I was a culture shock to me.
Half the pubs and shops shut down during Stow Fair week too!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: BobKnight
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:07 AM

The trouble with costumes is they place the wearer and the music, as far as outsiders are concerned, in the "Loony Fringe" camp. Could that be seen as detrimental to the image of folk music?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: glueman
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:15 AM

"Could that be seen as detrimental to the image of folk music?"

Probably. I fail to see the link between folk clothing and music. Medieval court jester by way of Rentaghost meets 1950s dustman? Wasallthatabout?
'Collector's' tweed is the only acceptable garb.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:39 AM

Me (in a tweed kilt you can't see in the picture)

I'd employ Lady Gaga as a wardrobe consultant if I could afford her.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:51 AM

If you are a Guitarist , a waistcoat makes a lot of sense at a summer
festival - Not as hot as a jacket , but convenient pockets for Capos , picks , etc !
And a hat shade the eyes from the Unanacustommed sun !!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:55 AM

Life is full of uniforms, the most noteable in the UK being that of the working class oik, consisting for work of variable upper wear but always tracksuit bottoms - usually gathered at the ankle, and trainers. For ordinary day to day wear - complete track suit without paint/cement/mud marks, very often with hood.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: bubblyrat
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:05 AM

It's an anthropological thing. Identifying with your own kind ; exhibiting signs of group membership; feeling safe and protected (and accepted) within the "herd" ; reinforcing bonds and links with others of a similar bent (no,I don't mean that ).
               Apart from that,it satisfies a need in all (or most) of us ,to throw off the shackles of sartorial convention and be "ourselves" for just a little while.Or,like Monsieur Le Rouge,all the time, I guess !!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:37 AM

Yes Bob Knight! I think so. Not just the perception of outsiders who would otherwise be willing to give it a try but it is an expensive layer to have to pay for when its costly enough to purchase beverages and food.

Round here singers of chanty songs etc... gather at high priced places and all dress up in elaborate usually victorian costuming, However many dress as pirates.

Being one who entered the folk via actual field experiences in the pubs of the terraces of Newcastle I always associated the folk with ordinary dress and thought that dressing up / fancy dress would be the opposite thing to do.

Careful, there is nothing wrong with those who bring fancy dress to the music. It is harmless and indeed another valid dimension however, I tend to think in terms of environmental impact upon the folk world and I think the added cost as well as the perception that folk is something theatrical rather than something everyday takes something away from the ability of the music to become more of a lifeway and draw in new participants.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Gedi
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:19 AM

Interesting thread. I tend to agree with you #1 about being in costume being detrimental to the folk scene in general. However there are certain practical considerations which come into play. For example when I play my melodeon my wristwatch is uncomfortable and may scratch the box, so I remove it and leave it on the table where of course it may be forgotten or even (heaven forbid) stolen.

So, in order to get around this I have recently bought a pocket watch. And what better place to keep a pocket watch than to wear a waistcoat with a pocket specifically designed for the purpose.

Am I then to be seen as being 'in period dress', or even 'fancy dress', for the wearing of a practical piece of clothing for the task in hand? Am I to avoid wearing said waistcoat for fear of upsetting the Muggles (ie non-folkies - those who don't deal in musical magic! with apologies to JKR), or even putting someone off folk by wearing a non-comformist item of clothing? Or should I just say sod everyone else and dress how I feel comfortable? I must confess I've never been a fashion victim and have always pleased myself when it comes to sartorial elegance (or otherwise). Is it time be more responsive to the feelings of others perhaps?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Bert
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:26 AM

'cos it's fun.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: bubblyrat
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:04 AM

Nevertheless,it is interesting how,or at least so it seems to me,that everyone in the USA,whether playing or not, APPEARS to do the same kind of thing at festivals,country-music conventions,etc,that is to say they all seem to dress up like Jed Clampett & Ellie-May,or Roy Rogers and whatever-her-name-was; so what's wrong with that ?? I mean,don't Civil War re-enactors dress up in Blue or Grey uniforms ?? They would look fucking stupid in lounge suits,don't you think ??


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Mooh
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM

Makes me wear socks with sandals. Oh the humanity!

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:04 AM

#1 Peasant has studied dress patterns at folk events quite extensively.

Here he is in disguise, so as not to attract attention, collecting data.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:51 AM

re - reenactors

I enact and do not wish to re-enact

Yes I am a master of art costume which I wear much of the time


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:53 AM

Ah yes photo from glen echo no doubt-spies everywhere. Actually overalls are my traditional costume worn daily. usually with paint and glue from the work on them


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:03 PM

Clothes make the man.
Naked people have little or no influence on society.
--Mark Twain


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

Conrad also entertained kids with whistles & such.....


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: GUEST,Otis.
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:08 PM

Well we usually see people dressing up in 'ye olde costume' at re-enactment days at castles and what not. Its a re-enactment of the past.

And the same can be said for 'folk' or 'traditional' music - its a re-enactment of the past. If you believe that the 'tradition' is 'living' and 'alive' then your wrong. Its a re-enactment of old music. Its only that some people decided to dig/collect the stuff up and give it a revival that its around today - and I honestly believe this is the main reason it still exists today.

Another thread at the moment asks 'is tradition song still going' - and my answer to that is no. The fact that it was labeled 'traditional' has stagnated the music and preserved it in a way it can never again evolve - by definition tradition has to evolve. For example Folkies wouldn't and won't allow a tune to change at someones wim - so it cant really naturally evolve. The fact that the music has been to extensively collected and recorded means that this music cannot change and evolve through aural transmission and create vernacular culture and music. Ironically, the true vernacular music of today can be seen in rock/pop music, because it knows it can't stay the same - it thrives on change and in that sense it is technically traditional: the antithesis of the current so called 'folk' scene.

So, folk music is a re-enactment, and just like people wearing medieval clothes at a medieval fair, people play folk music at a folk festival (and if they get confused between re-enactments or choose to blend their nostalgic views of the past they may wear ye olde clothes at a folk festival)

I have no problem with folk music, re-enactments, people wearing ye olde clothes or whatever. In fact I participate in some of them; but I also realise that its not traditional, and that 'folk' isn't contemporary or 'living'. I can see that its only contextual in the sense of historical re-enactment, nostalgia, or stupidity in some cases.

War re-enactments aren't classed as traditional or living, because they are clearly definable by their historiography. The problem that the 'folk' world is suffering is that unlike the war, music is not so clearly mark-able in history - therefore there is room for the collective peoples nostalgia to play out, and what has developed is the belief that this past is still happening.

Sorry for the Rant.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: eddie1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM

A lot that has been said here makes good sense. What I wonder, however, is - if I sing a traditional song followed by a contemporary song, followed by a calypso, followed by a song in Native American sign language, followed by a cowboy song followed by another traditional song, should I go off-stage to change costume or bare all on stage?

On reflection, perhaps I could borrow from this Tommy Cooper sketch?

Eddie


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: glueman
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:01 PM

You could say the gear is a neat symbol of the music. Lots of olde stuff bundled together with little sense of its origins that makes perfect sense to the tribe and makes everyone else go WTF...?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM

Good question, I always wondered why

Metallers wear long hair and leather gear,
Punkers clothes with holes in it and iroqouis haircuts
brass bands some kind of uniforms
Goths always black
Classical musicians black suits
...
(add what comes to your mind)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: Ernest
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:15 PM

Last post was mine, cookie reset now...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:55 PM

another problem with costuming is consistancy renn fests once designed to re create authenticly elizabethan costume and life now admit anyone...pirates, fairies, steampunkers a total jumble


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:39 PM

And here is another of the #1 Pissant .............. And this fuckwit is bitchin' about people dressing in costume????

Nice bike too. BTW folks, he calls that "art" ........... Looks like it crashed through a dumpster Conrad..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Why do peopleinsist ondressing incostume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:27 PM

Yes! Costumes are ok if you wear them daily. They are also ok when worn any time I just wonder why it happens. These are good people why are they suddenly in fancy dress? And I can't afford to dress up just so I can sing and drink with them. I can barely afford the beer.

As you see I wear native american dress overalls and minimally at that!

The bike was very well received. Lots of Barbies
The Art Bike

Other projects
More Hutman Artcar Projects

My latest costuming effort is the horn coat. Like my horn hats these are designed so that they can actually be played. The horn coat has a good range and I have to find someone to accompany it. All intended to be actual instruments and do work quite well. I play horn calls with them too - never before recorded or written down.


The Horn Coat

Conrad


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:28 AM

Concerning folk being dead. Don't know about that. As total lifeways maybe but as far as the artifacts left behind well they are there to be picked up and encorporated into a lifeway.

Dress is one of those artifacts. One can utilize cloting as re-enactment and in that case it becomes like theatre costuming performance or you can wear the clothes daily as I do with my overalls-a traditional american item of clothing. No I am not a farmer but I do wear clothes in my lifeway daily so I enact rather than re-enact. I also wear my art clothes wherever possible as well especially in the summer. I have been known to wear my horn hat to the home depot and am often in the pollack raincoat and dot hats as well as the pollack hat.

So dressing up just for a festival or gig (nothing wrong with it) is different than putting it on each day to go to work.

Same with music. I play whistle every day at some point. I dont just perform with it and I am constantly adapting older tunes making new ones from them.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM

"Why do people insist on dressing in costume?"

BECAUSE THEY CAN ! !


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:29 AM

Yes indeed they can do whatever they want! Good for them~!


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:33 AM


People doing the Can-Can often Can Costume!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

c O N r A d


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: melodeonboy
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:41 AM

'"Why do people insist on dressing in costume?"

BECAUSE THEY CAN ! !'

Why are pirates often seen at the events that no. 1 peasant goes to? Because they arrrrrrrrr!


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:14 AM

very good...but they arrrrrrrrrrrrr
everywhere.


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

"How should folkies dress to convey the vision of the timelessness of the music."

Voila!


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:29 PM

LOL...if that guy shows up at Glen Echo this year, we'll see if we can get him to do a demo!


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM

don't know about that guy but I will be there with the musical truck and most likely the horn coat- playing horn calls from the oral tradition. Horn hats a plenty as well.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 04:52 AM

I wear the same 2nd hand hippy rags at folk sessions as I wear everywhere. I guess I've been 'in costume' since I was about forteen, just never realised it till I discovered this strange musty subculture. Being into hiking and camping, I will team boots or sandals with skirts depending on what's clean - and I think a folk session is probably one of the few places that I can do that and not look like a 'lady of the road'.

I don't see myself suddenly adopting tankards as a styling feature though. I'm happy enough to stick with what the pub serves it in.


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:09 AM

Sounds good to me. I will only occasionally turn up at german events with my liter stoneware mug as it is the only way to be sure of being served the proper mass.


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Subject: RE: FlkloreWhy do people insist on dressing in costume
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:35 PM

costume is ok but much better when you wear it every day.I wandered around with my horn suit jacket for a while today. Lots of photo ops and smiles and of course horn calls from the mind


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